Open 229 - Vengeful Mafia (Game Over)

[Octupis]

/Confirm

[Octupis]

Yes, I had an interview/induction day yesterday and then a party on the evening. Sorry about that.

Robocopter, if you didn't really claim why did you write this:

Well what else would I claim?

Which implies that you had claimed. Perhaps you are just joking around but something about it doesn't sit right with me. However, I think it would be very silly to go straight ahead and lynch Robocopter (anyone in fact) at this early stage of the game.

[Octupis]

I see your point. As for you Robocopter, I just don't understand why you would suddenly choose a 'random generator' to pick your suspect. It doesn't make any sense at all. Do you do this usually or is it just when you know you've slipped up? Either way I think your deserving of some more pressure.

Vote Roboopter87

.

He is at L-1, so don't do anything too hasty guys. I presume that this is now the time to request a formal claim from Robocopter?

[Octupis]

Hmm. Well I guess a short game isn't always good.

Octupis, why did you ask Robo to claim when you voted him? Do you think Mindgamer is the remaining scum?

Mindgamer, I know I was saying that the game needn't drag, but I still wasn't prepared for that quickhammer. You'd made a total of one game posts before that. Why were you comfortable about ending the day then?

Force of habit. I have just become accustomed to requesting a claim, even if I know what will be claimed and that the person has to claim that. It's just something I have come to see as a important part of the game, then again, I don't exactly have a wealth of experience. Although I see your point that it is a bit silly now, especially on a forum when Robocopter would have only claimed townie. I don't know who is scum but I will have a look back and a long think and get back to you. Although I am very adamant of the fact that no one should vote yet at all, the chances of finding scum are difficult because we don't have much to go on, so one misplaced vote would allow scum to quick hammer and it would be the end of the game. We need to think about this.

[Octupis]

Hey, I'm here, I've been following but there hasn't been an awful lot to say.

In response to your questions, I would have asked Mindgamer why he flaked, was it real life problems or was it the game? But considering we have a replacement, I can't ask that. Otherwise, his behaviour on day one didn't seem to out of the ordinary apart from the fact that he said he didn't like quick lynches, then proceeded to quick lynch Robocopter, because he has never been so 'confident about a lynch' than he was at that point. Also, seeing as Robocopter picked his suspect randomly on day one, I presume he did the same with his vengeance kill. I certainly didn't see anything on day one that would have made Smash Bro stand out as scum, so I'm guessing it was just a guess. What do you think?

[Octupis]

Octupis: have you heard of the one-on, one-off the wagon scum strategy for vengefuls before now?

Not really. My experiance of mafia is limited, as this is my first Vengeful game so I can't really help out there.

With the Robo flip and reading back over him, it looks like he was deliberately trying to draw the lynch so he could use his vengekill.

Why do you think he would want that though?

I agree with EGL that day one was too short. Mindgamer's replacement doesn't help either, but I am wondering whether or not we are going to be able to garner enough reliable information from the game to make an informed decision when we vote? As far as I can tell, most of the discussion so far has been about the motives of people who died to quickly and didn't post enough. Therefore our cases are based too heavily on inferences and are going to be fairly weak.

When I put Robocopter at L-1, I was of the opinion that he would then claim and we could get information, I now realise that was naive in this sort of game. I even urged the other players not to be hasty, yet Mindgamer hammered while admitting that he had skimmed the game, he labelled every post of Robocopter as scummy and he said that he was as confident of a lynch as he has ever been. This seems very scummy to me (the only way he would have been so confident was if he was pruvy to information that others were not). I appreciate that you can't explain these actions EGL, but I am inclined at this point to suspect Mindgamer at least, and as a result, you too. I won't vote though, I have learnt my lesson about fast lynches.

[Octupis]

Have you read through any Vengeful games other than this one?

No, I never considered it, but I shall have a browse since you mentioned it.

[Octupis]

No. Mindgamer said he skimmed a few of Robo's OTHER games. Not this one. Please don't misrepresent information.

Sorry, I read it quickly, my mistake. I got sort of a virus thing so I'm not all there.

[Octupis]

In post 21, you asked me for my thoughts. I was replying in post 25. I said yes because you had asked me for what I thought and I was telling you. Apart from that, you think my day one vote was OMGUS, yet you don't seem to consider the fact that I agreed with you that Robo's actions were genuinely scummy.

VOTE: Robocopter87

Who's with me?

DIE SCUM DIE

This seems a bit forthright for such an early stage. I was the one who was exercising restraint. You keep mentioning the fact that Mindgamer ended the day fairly early, but you were very persistent in your attack on Robocopter. I don't think this is hypocritical of me because I did vote for Robocopter but that was after he started using a random generator to pick his targets, I had grounds to vote for him, I think yours were weak and you rather shortened day one in your own way by not allowing Robocopter to speak much. You tunnelled him from the beginning of the game, until he started talking rubbish. I agree with EGL in this respect, I think you have been causing WIFOM since Smashbro's death with your discussion of Robocopter's motives in killing Smashbro. How did this help the town?

I have been content with EGL's play thus far. The only criticism that I would have, and I realise that this applies to me to, is that you have not been scum hunting per say, rather just answering the questions of Fenchurch. I know I am guilty of this too, but I look forward to your next post, although I am slightly concerned about the deadline.

I will hold off my vote for now too though.

[Octupis]

I apologise for pushing so hard on the Robo lynch, I honestly thought I was on the right track. But all three of us voted Robocopter on Day 1, and two of us were town. Clearly it was possible to vote Robo with good intentions. But one of us was actually voting him because a mis-lynch would help them as scum. So I've been looking at Day 1 to try and find clues to work out whose vote seems most scummy. Or who seems like a partner to smashbro.

Given that both of you seem unconvinced by the points I raised, and one of you must be town, I'll accept that maybe they are rubbish. But I am doing my best here.

There is no need to apoligise. You say you honestly thought he was scum, but you came to that conclusion awfully quickly. That is all I am saying.

EGL, any progress on your review? The game is rather stalling because of it (considering you asked us not to vote in the mean time).

[Octupis]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Why not? You said you would review our posts in post 66. Why have you gone back on your word? It seems to me like an attempt to waste time and defelect attention from you at the time when you could have been put under some pressure by Fenchurch.

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

This is just wifom. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you. This is a baseless argument.

I really don't think you can blame me for the Robo lynch. It took three votes, and if you didn't think it was a reasonable case at the time then you shouldn't have voted. The thing is, it did seem like a reasonable case at the time. I pushed hard because sometimes a scum player will drop tells when they're under pressure; if instead you say "I'm voting you but I don't think we should lynch you" then that relieves the pressure. I wasn't expecting a townie to react to pressure like Robo did, and it backfired because of that; but I think you agree that Robo's responses did seem scummy, and I was surprised at the flip. I accept that I was aggressive, and I've said why, but you can't hold me responsible for the actions of other players: for the other two votes, or for Robo's posts.

I am not blaming you for the Robo lynch. I did think it was a reasonable case at the time because I joined the lynch later than you did, by that time, he was suggesting a random generator. I had grounds to vote for him, but I think at the start, you rather made an awful lot of his vote. I am not blaiming you for any of the things you mentioned at the end of your post, I just think you were fairly aggressive to be honest. Are you anxious about this, because you have answered it twice just to me already?

As for who I would want to lynch, I am also leaning towards EGL. I beleive that Fenchurch has been doing well to promote discussion, and rather carry the game along. Since you joined EGL, you have slowed us down by false promises, caused wifom, and not really contributed a huge amount. Mindgamer didn't strike me as much of a town player either.

[Octupis]

I reread the game. Two days later you asked me if I was still rereading. And I said no. How is it going back on my word if I reread it already?

I presumed that you would have posted your thoughts to promote to discussion. No?

No. Fenchurch caused WIFOM.

How does this mean that you didn't also cause WIFOM? Just because Fenchurch did, doesn't mean that you didn't.

Sorry if I haven't contributed that much. I'm replacing in with very little to go on and it took me a while to get my bearings about this game. I find it odd you complain that I wasn't doing a lot of scumhunting, yet when I do you complain about it. Anyway, you need to reread Fenchurch.

There is no need to apologize. I don't remember complaining when you were scumhunting, do you have a quote? I will re read both of you in due course, but I am interested to note that you and constantly trying to make me scrutinize Fenchurch, thus deflecting attention from you.

[Octupis]

If I had anything new to post, yes, which I eventually did.

So the only thing that you got from reviewing the whole of the thread was that Fenchurch may have knew information others didn't because of the the quicktopic. I wasn't particularly enthralled by this attack because this is an open game, the role PMs are always posted on the first page. This again seems like pointless WIFOM when I come to think of it. This is not worthy of slowing the game down so you could re read. The more I look at your posts, the more I am thinking you are scum.

Also EGL, you seem to have ignored my request for a quote, when I complained about you scumhunting (apparently).

[Octupis]

There's your quote where you were complaining. I didn't think I'd need to quote the post right before where I said you had complained.

You are incorrect. In that quote, I am not complaining that you are scumhunting, I am complaining that you are not scumhunting.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

What has Fenchurch's behaviour got to do with yours? To answer your question though, your point about Fenchurch bringing up the issue of quicktopis was WIFOM. You seem like a perceptive and intelligent person and it is quite clear that quicktopis would be a part of this game, especially considering that the mod posted the sample role PMs. To make matters worse, this is all you said when we were waiting for you to conclude your review, which never came.

I'd also like to note that your point about me trying to slow us down from a quick lynch being a scum tell is a poor point. Longer day phases favor the town. There wasn't much information to go on and so I pointed out that deadlines were pointless when you two were worrying about the deadline and the mod removed the deadline. I didn't want a D2 quick lynch due to the lack of information. Why are you complaining about that?

Where did I say that you were trying to slow down a

quick

lynch? That is a fabrication on your part. I never said I wanted a quick lynch. You are now lying to incriminate me. For the record, I don't want to a quick lynch (don't you think I would be voting if I did?), I want for the game to pick up pace in real time. I posted on the 18th, and there was no reply until the 20th, I kept checking back on this forum throughout the day because I have another game too but I was kinda sad not to have this game progress. I don't want a quick lynch, I want for our contributions and discussions to happen at a quicker pace.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

It is WIFOM because there are only three players in the game. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she isn't going to vote for herself, so it is always going to be between me and you. Just like it is only between you and Fenchurch for me. That much is true but you tried to confuse the matter with introducting the idea that this might change if Fencurch were scum. Which it wouldn't.

And in both of those posts I've quoted you complained about me "slowing down the game." Why are you in such a rush to a lynch?

I'm not.

EGL, who would you lynch and why?

Re-reading, rethinking.

Good.

[Octupis]

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

I had a look at the wiki thread and realise that you were right. I was under the impression that the world simply meant to cause confusion, but now realise that it is a specific type of confusion. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I think that there isn't an awful lot left to discuss and if we did find something, it wouldn't be particularly benificial to finding scum, so I am going to vote and see what happens, if I am wrong, then we always have another chance with the vengeful townie thing.

Vote EGL

. I think you are scum.

[Octupis]

BTW we don't have another chance for vengeful townie kill, that is only on the first night.

Well never mind, that doesn't change my impression of EGL.

[Octupis]

Octupis, at the start of the day you posted this:

Although I am very adamant of the fact that no one should vote yet at all, the chances of finding scum are difficult because we don't have much to go on, so one misplaced vote would allow scum to quick hammer and it would be the end of the game.

So it seems like you did know that then, how come you didn't know it now?

Yes, I still know now and am aware of the fact that you could have hammered and lost the game for me and EGL (if we were town) but I think EGL is scum and I can't just sit around not doing anything. There had to come a time when I voted, so I did. Also, note the fact that I said yet, because I have to vote at some point so the game can finish (unless I get lynched). Besides if I were scum would I really have voted first in this game, I would have sat tight, waited for someone else to vote, and then just hammer. However, I feel we have discussed just about as much as there is to discuss so I voted on who I thought was scum.

[Octupis]

Oh no, I wasn't talking about your voting. I meant you saying "if I'm wrong then there will still be another chance with a vengeful kill", which isn't the case, and considering you didn't think that at the start of the day, it seems like maybe you were trying to be deliberately misleading.

No, just unintentionally misleading. At the start of the day, my first thought was to make sure that there wasn't a quick lynch. I didn't consider any other features of the game, including the vengeful shooting, or lack of it today. Then when the discussion got under way I started to think about the lynch possibilities more, and presumed that the vengeful townies would be able to shoot. I forgot the part about it only happening on day one which is why I made the recent mistake. The misleading aspect arises from the fact that I didn't know at the beginning of the game, and didn't consider it my post because my very first priority was to prevent a quick lynch. Then I started thinking about it more, I presumed that we would be able to shoot.

[Octupis]

Anyone home?

[Octupis]

Sorry I'm tired and screwed up the end tag.

VOTE: Octupis

In your case, could you explain why voting for you makes me scum please.

[Octupis]

EGL? If you're not gonna be around then I can make a decision based on my own thoughts on the game, but I think it would help to have your perspective. Even a sentence or two?

Wouldn't a replacement be a better course of action? This game is going incredibly slowly now.

I'm going to unvote for now. If EGL is too busy with life then we should get a replacement and continue the game. I would prefer for there to be meaninful discussion than for the game to end with one of the players missing. I voted to see what would happen and to see if we could work some more stuff out. It didn't have the desired effect because of EGL's absence.

Unvote

Mod, is there any chance of another replacement?

[Octupis]

I'm willing to wait for another replacement, although I'd much prefer to hear something from EGL.

Octupis, can you explain the reasoning behind your unvote?

The discussion was becoming stagnant so I voted for EGL (who I still think is the more likely to be scum) to see what would happen. I wanted to see how both of you reacted. At the time, I thought that EGL would be able to shoot if he got the chance so it wouldn't be that bad. Due to EGL's absence, the plan didn't work, and we are no nearer to finding out anything, so I unvoted. I was also uncomfortable with this post because it implies that you are getting impatient with EGL's absence and you'd sooner vote before he spoke again (I favour a replacement over not hearing from EGL before the day ends, but would prefer above for EGL to return).

[Octupis]

If I was scum, why wouldn't I have voted for one of you two already? Hell, EGL still has a vote sitting on you. Why wouldn't I be hammering you right now and winning the game?

Did I call you scum? I just said that I was uncomfortable with your post.

[Octupis]

But that implies that you are still considering the possibility that I might be. Are you? And if so, why wouldn't I hammer earlier? Why does that not convince you?

The implication wasn't intended. I just think that EGL or a replacement (if it comes to that) should have a chance to defend themselves, or at least answer the points that have been asked of them. I remember you saying that you had wanted for EGL to answer questions before you'd consider hammering; in this post however, you gave me the impression that you were ready to hammer if EGL didn't return. I would prefer if EGL did return before the game ends, so I unvoted. I am quite sure he is scum, but I want to see what he has to say before a lynch is reached.

[Octupis]

Octupis, in any other point of the game, I can understand you being concerned about my post. But now we're in endgame and votes have been cast, that changes things. There is a vote on you and I am not hammering. You have the information then, to be

logically certain

that I am not scum. That trumps any uncertainty based on my posts.

Why, then, be concerned about the game ending when the scum player is away? Is it just a question of sportsmanship, or are you still open to persuasion, and if so, why?

I agree with your first paragraph, and wasn't saying that I thought you were scum, or trying to imply it. I am quite sure of the fact that you are town. I am not open to persuasion on the score of EGL being scum, and you being town, but I think it's only fair that EGL, at least is allowed to make a post before his possible lynch. I don't know what it is, but something about lynching him when he is away (as a result of life, he's not lurking in the true sense of the word) doesn't sit right with me; even if the post only consists of something trivial (in light of his possible defeat). I guess it is sportsmanship. I unvoted to prevent you hammering him while he was away, it wasn't related to matters concerning mafia.

I'm happy to vote for him again, but would prefer if you didn't hammer until we hear from him again.

Vote EGL

[Octupis]

Octupis, do you still think I did the wrong thing by voting now?

No, don't worry, it isn't a huge thing but it would have been nice if EGL could have come back and posted. Maybe he will yet.

Good job to Octupis for taking the chance and throwing out a vote, situations like this LyLo just require someone to take a chance, and it confirmed Fenchurch which was good. Robo's vengeful kill was an amusing one to get, as everyone had completely ignored him all of Day 1.

[edit]And it was a random shot too, makes that even funnier

Thank you, I just went with a gut feeling to vote for EGL, and it paid off, it wasn't quite as planned as it may have seemed.

Respectfully disagree. Plenty of times I've gone with the gut and had it be wrong. In fact the last C9 I played ended with a lylo mislynch, and in post-game one of the other townies suggested that if I'd waited a little longer before hammering, we might have figured it out correctly.
Throughout most of D2 I was confident about 60:40, then the last few posts pushed that to 95:5. I appreciate it was painful though, it was incredibly so for me.

And much as I might have liked to lay down the first vote, I simply could not tell which way Octupis was leaning, and after being criticised for my D1 aggression, I felt that pushing a lynch on D2 would just end with me in the noose.

What was it about my last few posts that pushed the balance?

Octupis, I was pretty flummoxed when you pulled your vote off to give EGL a chance. If I was a townie who was now 100% certain of scum, I would be doing everything I could to ensure they were lynched, yet when I suggested that I was gonna hammer then you suddenly backed off, how come?

I paniced because I thought that you were going to lynch me (especially during that huge gap when we were waiting for EGL to present his case on me). I had to do something to make sure that I didn't get lynched, for the town's sake, all I could think off was to unvote because I had set up the first lynch, and had now been quite rash in setting up the second. In the interest's of the town I unvoted so I didn't seem as aggressive, in the hope that I could pull it off, allow EGL to come back, whereupon I would demolish his case and would vote for him again, and we would win. I then paniced again when you said that I was unvoting the person I knew was scum, so I revoted. I'm an idiot but I was worried about being lynched, and knew that I, or rather, we would lose, so I just did something.

Bad strategy? Perhaps.

I didn't see it for what it was though. I didn't know of the theory, and was telling the truth when I admitted that. Did it help you?

Also, thanks kunk for the flattering portrayel in the last lynch scene. I enjoyed the game, and thought your modding was brilliant. Thanks

[Octupis]

Sorry I need a V/LA until August 4. GOTV is a super busy time for me.

I don't think EGL has realised that we've finished the game.

Well, good game Fenchurch and EGL. Thanks for modding mod.