Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[charter]

I just reread it again, and I'm still laughing.

[charter]

Llama's last post is hilarious. 'He did it as scum because he'd do it as town'. I don't think suspicions get any more flimsy than that. So hilarious that I don't even care about lynching SSBF

first

anymore.

Left a word out there

[llamaeatataco]

Unless it's a naive/para/gunsmith thing I suggested earlier. hmm.

Gee, you even included the answer in there and you didn't see it. The 'unless' is in there for a reason.

Llama's last post is hilarious. 'He did it as scum because he'd do it as town'. I don't think suspicions get any more flimsy than that. So hilarious that I don't even care about lynching SSBF first anymore.

What is this I don't even-


Seriously? Are you going to strawman like that so early into the day? You said you absolutely refused to lynch Sando and just acted scummy in general. Crypto asked me 'why would he claim gunsmith as town?' because that was the one thing that he couldn't figure out about your play if you were scum. I told him. If you are scum, you want to look like town. If you came into the game and decided from the time you got your role pm 'this is what my fakeclaim is going to be' then it makes perfect sense.

Charter has now resorted to strawmanning, and now he's still fence-sitting.

He has left him self able to quickly switch over to ssbf when my wagon loses steam.


@Crypto: If Charter is town, and a smart and competent player, how could he have possibly taken that so out of context?

@Charter: rtft. Specifically my post 540. Here is the relevant section quoted for you so you can't possibly fuck it up:

Also, after finishing my re-read, unvote, vote:Charter

He claims gunsmith.
Evidence for cops, but no evidence for gunsmiths.
ABSOLUTELY REFUSES TO LYNCH SANDO.
Sando = godfather
Sando lynch = confirming cop almost.

Crypto's question that he apparently asked before (544):

Llama:

Why would charter-scum fake-claim gunsmith at that interval, hiphop?

My answer after I figured it out:

I figured out why Charterscum would claim at the time that he did. Because that's what Chartertown would do.

That's not my reason for voting you, that's my eliminating a reason to NOT vote for you. Now, please stfu, read the thread and then self vote when it becomes obvious that you are scum, or explain why you absolutely refused to lynch Sando.

[llamaeatataco]

double post due to leaving things out:
I'm at l-1 again. Charter has omgus'd and strawmanned even though he acknowledges that my lynch will not clarify things. That lets him off the hook for this particular issue.
Spyrex is voting me for some batshit crazy reason, And he also has claimed that it's not because of the cop thing.

That leaves ssbf and alamaster. Alamaster decided to just put up a v/la notice instead of answering my questions that were more or less pointed directly at him.
However, he's not here, so we just have ssbf.

@SSBF: Do you still think that lynching me would tell you alamaster's alignment? If so, why didn't you read the thread? If not, Do you also have a stupid reason to vote me?

[llamaeatataco]

triplepost because you guys need to be more active.

I'm going to be semi L/A for the next week. I'll only get to post at night here in the States.

Also,

Mod, can we prod anyone yet?

[crypto]

Right now SSBF is a pretty tantalizing lynch, but I'm puzzled by his report on Almasta. Charter would appear to be the odd man out but ugh.

More tomorrow if I muster the motivation. I see your point, llama, but I don't think "He did it to look pro-town" is a very good argument. Sounds too much like the Too Townie fallacy.

[nopointinactingup]

@hiphop and llamaeatataco: I disagree that we get nothing out of a llamaeatataco lynch.

From investigating AlmasterGM, I got a Town result from him. AlmasterGM claims that he investigated llamaeatataco and got a Mafia result from him.

If llamaeatataco flips scum like AlmasterGM said, then that means I am insane cop and AlmasterGM is scum. If AlmasterGM is wrong and llamaeatataco is town, then he is insane cop.

With charter, we can hit one scums and look for connections with other scumbags based on evidence. Lynching llamaeatataco runs the risk of hitting a townie, but if llamaeatataco is scum, then AlmasterGM is scum as well. Basically, we potentially have two scums caught. If llamaeatataco is scum, then town can wrap up a game without a mislynch. I'm willing to take this risk.

Vote: llamaeatataco

If llama flips scum, we can be sure the AGM is the real deal (

not scum

) and you're probably the fake or the insane ( more probably fake )... But right now, despite AGM's result, I'm almost sure that you are scum, not the cop.

Right now, we obviously have a lot of PR in this set-up ( scum and town alike ), thus with the Insane Cop/ Sane Cop likelihood, I do

not think

we should lynch Llama yet ( people's reasoning for lynching him is basically because AGM got a guity on him or to use him as a scapegoat to find potential scum ). I believe he is town and lynching him would either give us no information whatsover and give the scums more reasons to WIFOM themselves over this set-up and its possibilities. Think about it, what kinda scum would place his vote on his Godfather then disappear, sworn never to alter his vote for the day? AT these kinds of set-up, I do not think we can trust in the cop's result as much as we trust in our scum hunting. I, and I'm sure most of you, find SSBF most blatantly scummy. Thus, there's no reason to keep being soft on him because of his cop claim. Charter (claimed gunsmith ) was roleblocked but Podium was killed, Not SSBF, our claimed cop. This did not happen because of conspiracy, it happened simply because SSBF is scum. Hence, all those voting for Llama,please go back and reconsider your opinion. The scums expect us to take the easiest way out.

With that I place my Day 2 vote on

Vote:SSBF

.

[nopointinactingup]

Arrggg left behind heaps of posts T_T.
Alright, that was a nice catch by Podium and those who didn't agree with him are currently on the top of my scum list. Of course a scum could buss his godfather in the end but I doubt it's from the beginning of the wagon. This means I'm looking at you: Charter, AGM, SSBF Wicked, Spyrex and even Crypto (for not voting).

Nopo- sorry for the push. I now know you are town.

Of course you do, and you were tunneling on me like a wolf on a sheep.

Are you doubting your result?

No I am not. I am confident that AlmasterGM is town. Just that I currently don't buy the cop claim. I also have yet to see a Mini Normal with two cops, regardless of variations. However, the evidences that you provided is something to look over.

What is he a lying townie?

He could potentially be lying, but town has no reasons to lie, especially not about there role. If me and AlmasterGM are truly town, this can be proven if llamaeatataco flips scum/AlmasterGM flips town.

What is this? You said you doubt that both you and AGM are cops, then go on to say AGM is town but unlikely to be lying. Does this mean you think yourself as scum because AGM can only be town and unlikely lying if he's really cop.

Are all of you serious right now? Look at the two stories, objectively:

Story 1: There are two scummy players. One claims cop when under pressure and narrowly avoids a lynch (a traditionally strategic play as scum. The other escapes as well, but gets investigated that night and is found, somewhat unsurprisingly, guilty.
Story 2: There are two cops in the game, one is insane and one isn't. There is also a death miller, a Godfather, and a gunsmith. There are two scummy players; one of them just happens to have the sane cop, the other is actually town but flips innocent because one of the cops is insane. Also, the scum decided not to kill or roleblock the claimed cop, even though they just lost their Godfather and so he could now conceivably out all of them.

If you believe Story 2 over Story 1 you are out of your mind. Llama was scummy yesterday and there's NO reason to believe he ISN'T scum except for the word of a scummy, counterclaimed cop spouting the absurd Story 2. What we today is obvious: lynch llama.

There's also a Story 3, in which SSBF is scum, Llama is town and that you are Insane, which I'm more inclined to believe in.
And besides that we also have stories in which you are scum or lyncher ... Bedtime story anyone?

[quote="hiphop]
Not sure exactly. Maybe he wanted to get it out, but like I said the piece of paper said how to appear innocent to cops. Not the cop, but cops. Of course it could be just flavor. Though I would think if there was a gunsmith, it might have said something like they found a gun on him.
[/quote]

I don't think the flavor catch is valid. The mod probably wrote "cops" to mean in general, people with investigative ability. Who would write something as blatant as "appear innocent to the cop" ? ( Cops is used more for generalization than the cop right? )

@hiphop: No I am not lying about my result. However, thinking about it, I am starting to consider that the situation you presented is very well possible.

And another thought. If we lynch charter ToDay, this lynch will most strongly reflect SpyreX. I say this because SpyreX has many times suggested that I am lying but charter is not, indicating that they are more likely of the same alignment then others here. Given that flavor evidence provided by hiphop, which favors a cop role over a gunsmith role, charter is more likely to be scum. If a charter scum flip happens, I will investigate SpyreX Night 2.

It's not just SpyreX. Clearly, if anyone had to choose between you are Charter at that time to lynch, we'd choose you as the liar. Your play rakes of scumminess, even your cop claim.

o.0 wtf?

how about this: alamaster is lying scum and ssbf is just a fail insane cop. You see, as long as that is a possibility, lynching me will prove nothing.

If AGM is scum, I don't think he'd out himself like that considering the scum didn't kill our claimed cop or claimed gunsmith. If he was anti-town, he's more likely lyncher, who would show innocent to cops right?

so you're saying that scum can never trick the town by being daring? That a ballsy claim completely erases a whole game of scumminess?

I would say I'm typically daring, but not that daring

[hiphop]

^I agree with Crypto's statement.

I think Charter's claim seemed like a town claim. Not because it was a counter claim, but the claim itself.

However SSBF's action of saying Almaster is innocent,

after

almaster's claim, rattles my cage. Why as scum would he do that? i really do not think scum would do that.(wifom)

i have been thinking about those two things for the last two days, yet I do not buy three cops. And I don't care what alignment they are, there are not three cops in this game.

SSBF's report, for me anyways, solidifies Almaster town. So scum is among one of the other 2.

I'll go with Charter.

vote charter

Also something that catches my eye is that Charter was supposedly roleblocked. Therefore if he were scum, no confirmed townies. Didn't somebody yesterday on the SSBF wagon say they didn't want to go through SSBF saying he was rb'd day after day. Yet it wasn't SSBF that said he was RB, it was Charter. Granted of course a roleblocker is common, but the fact that it was said before the night, and then he comes out and says it, irks me.

Guys think about this- Charter's claim does not match with the setup. Godfather, Miller. Are you saying that a gunsmith is in the game? I don't think so.

Llama still not going to claim? Your choice, not mine.

[charter]

I'm moving today/tomorrow. Not sure when internet is going to be hooked up in my new place, so V/LA for a few days..

[Hayker]

If activity doesn't pick up, I will not grant the deadline extension.

[hiphop]

Guys choose SSBF or Charter

[crypto]

Roleblocking charter would've been the best move for scum to make since if here were gunsmith he'd be crucial to determining nopo's alignment.

On the other hand, they could just kill him. Hmm.

[nopointinactingup]

However SSBF's action of saying Almaster is innocent,

after

almaster's claim, rattles my cage. Why as scum would he do that? i really do not think scum would do that.(wifom)

Why vote Charter base on a WIFOM? He could easily have done that to mislead you.

i have been thinking about those two things for the last two days, yet I do not buy three cops. And I don't care what alignment they are, there are not three cops in this game.

SSBF's report, for me anyways, solidifies Almaster town. So scum is among one of the other 2.

From the way Charter counter claim SSBF, Charter and SSBF has different alignment. From the way AGM counter claim SSBF, AGM and SSBF has different alignment.
Thus, Charter and AGM are of the same alignment while SSBF is of a different alignment --> SSBF = Scum CC.

Also something that catches my eye is that Charter was supposedly roleblocked. Therefore if he were scum, no confirmed townies. Didn't somebody yesterday on the SSBF wagon say they didn't want to go through SSBF saying he was rb'd day after day. Yet it wasn't SSBF that said he was RB, it was Charter. Granted of course a roleblocker is common, but the fact that it was said before the night, and then he comes out and says it, irks me.

Charter could very well be really role blocked. The only reason why SSBF wasn't roleblocked is that he's scum.

Guys think about this- Charter's claim does not match with the setup. Godfather, Miller. Are you saying that a gunsmith is in the game? I don't think so.

What's wrong with a Cop/Gunsmith/Godfather/Miller set-up ?

Roleblocking charter would've been the best move for scum to make since if here were gunsmith he'd be crucial to determining nopo's alignment.

On the other hand, they could just kill him. Hmm.

I would think differently. From the way I supported Podium to lynch Sando, most people would be more sure that I'm town already. Charter investigating me would only substantiate that town read a tiny little bit more. Whereas, if SSBF was the real cop, he should have been role blocked because he would have been potentially dangerous for the scum. That's why I think that a Charter role block would more indicate SSBF scum ( is SSBF is scum then the only town power role they know would be Charter and thus it makes sense to block Charter ).
And as for why they didn't just kill him. I don't know, maybe they thought role block was enough. Or maybe they were more afraid of Podium's read ..

[llamaeatataco]

Roleblocking charter would've been the best move for scum to make since if here were gunsmith he'd be crucial to determining nopo's alignment.

I seem to remember the mod saying that he couldn't tell us what a gunsmith investigation of nopoint would reveal. He could show up as not having a gun like we expect, or he could be a super miller and show up as having a gun even though he doesn't. Basically, it's a 50/50 shot as far as charter investigating noppoint.


I personally don't care between SSBF and Charter. I don't quite see what was initially super scummy about him, but I haven't really liked his play during the end of d1 or d2. But then again, I disliked Charter's play more. You people seem to have other ideas however, and it's more of a 'who do we lynch first' situation. Wait a minute, scratch that.

We lynch Charter: We know that there is A cop, but we don't know which one is real.
We lynch SSBF: we don't know if Charter is legit, but we now have a bunch of wifomy crap to throw at alamaster if he flips town. If he flips scum, we can throw that same crap at Charter.

SSBF is the link between alamaster and Charter, really.

unvote, vote:SSBF

Because I'm too lazy to check who I'm voting for and because I want to make the Mod's life a little bit harder. >:D

[llamaeatataco]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

I did it again.

Here's what I forgot:

@Hiphop: Like I said, if I don't have to claim I don't want to, because it will only help the scum.

@Alamaster lyncher thing: I would lol if he tried the same trick twice. I also don't think ssbf is legit.

@Crypto:

I see your point, llama, but I don't think "He did it to look pro-town" is a very good argument. Sounds too much like the Too Townie fallacy.

Sounds similar but is completely different. The too townie fallacy is saying that someone is scum because of their town behavior, while I'm saying that not all pro-town moves are made by townies.

[crypto]

Llama, with respect to the mod question thing, if there's a gunsmith and a death miller then I would think one solves the puzzle of the other.

Nopo, I don't think your push on Sando clears you whatsoever, since it could have been a bus, and you are still a huge question mark. Charter investigating you would still be huge - he'd be a high priority for town protective roles and consequently a risk to try to kill. Keeping you, charter, and SSBF all alive while roleblocking charter keeps both your alignment and the SSBF/charter tangle in the dark.

Also, you're talking very much from your POV and nobody else's, so I dunno.

OH YEAH BY THE WAY, I don't think I've put enough emphasis on my scum read on Spyspy.

Vote: SpyreX.

Woohoo.

[crypto]

Llama, I know what the Too Townie fallacy is. I also know they're not the same thing. I think your case is garbage in a similar way. Do I need to be any more clear?

[Hayker]

Vote Count

Llamaeatataco 4-(AlmasterGM, SpyreX, Super Smash Bros. Fan, charter)

Super Smash Bros. Fan 2-(nopointinactingup, Llamaeatataco)

Charter 1-(hiphop)

SpyreX 1-(crypto)

Not Voting 1-(Wickedestjr,)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[llamaeatataco]

Ah, so you're just going to dismiss it without any response to any of it, just call it garbage. It's not even a case really, it's simply me outlining his d1 actions. But yes, be more clear. Actually, just answer me two questions: Why would town Charter absolutely refuse to lynch Sando, and why would he strawman and misrep in his 601?

Anyway, on to important things:

@Crypto: It's a 50/50 shot as to whether it clears things up (NP has no gun, therefore he is not mafia) or just leaves us in the same situation (NP DOES have a gun and it's either because he's scum or because the miller feature works on gunsmiths as well as cops) just one more day closer to lylo.

[hiphop]

Llama- Miler's do not have guns. Period. Do you want me to repeat myself. I don't care what the mod said. For all I know Charter could be scum(most likely) so the reason the mod said he cannot say anything was because charter cannot investigate nopo. I mean the question was mod will nopo have a gun when Charter investigates him. And 2 if charter was a gunsmith, then if the mod answers that question, he would confirm that charter is a gunsmith, and nopo is town. Miller's do not have guns. Even go to the fact of what do miller's do? Do they need a gun in their jobs, that would be a no.

Crypto- Think about this. If you were scum and you had a godfather as your buddy. What would you claim? You know that with godfather's comes cops. Therefore if you were to claim cop, someone would counter claim. While if you were to claim gunsmith, if someone is a cop, they might or might not counterclaim you, but if they are lynched, you can still have the argument that a gunsmith can sometimes be with a cop. Then comes the fact of when to claim. Obviously you wouldn't claim unless you had too. If charter had not claimed there, when would be the time for charter to say he is a gunsmith, when he was about to be lynch, or when he wanted to make an argument that Ssbf being a cop can't exist? The first question would make the claim not believable and the second he would have to conterclaim.

Nopo-

What's wrong with a Cop/Gunsmith/Godfather/Miller set-up ?

keep saying that and you might get it. Everything is wrong about that setup. What is the point of having a godfather, when there is a gunsmith? What is the point of having a miller, when there is a gunsmith? There is no point, in fact the cop would be nothing but a VT, and everybody rides the gunsmith. My point exactly, the gunsmith is the odd man out. Also whether or not scum do have a RB (not proven), it only makes sense for Charter to say he was RB when he is scum. And the rest of your DEFENSE of charter is WIFOM.

As for why I believe SSBF is town, well, he gave an innocence on Almaster after Almaster's claim. He basically confirmed that Almaster is town not scum. Scum confirming a cop? Not happening. It would be better for him to say he investigated me or llama, or someone else. Certaintly not a PR.

Guys SSBF or Charter take your pick. I am not exactly sold on SSBF being town, so i won't whine if he is lynched.

[llamaeatataco]

Hiphop, while I agree that it makes sense that millers don't have guns flavor-wise- oh wait, this is a normal game... Mods aren't allowed to do crazy things to roles in normal games, are they? I was just going to say that if he's a deathmiller, the point is to make it so that we have absolutely no way of knowing if he is scum or town, before or after his lynch.

While I agree that ssbf giving an innocent report on alamaster does make him seem to be town from a certain point of view, it doesn't erase the rest of his actions.

Wicked needs to come back. Alamaster needs to come back.

Spyrex needs to stop lurking.

Mod, You have spyrex voting for Crypto and me.

[crypto]

Almaster, who's scum with llama?

SSBF, why didn't you investigate charter?

[hiphop]

I was just going to say that if he's a deathmiller, the point is to make it so that we have absolutely no way of knowing if he is scum or town, before or after his lynch.

exactly, which is why charter is without a doubt scum. A gunsmith does not belong in this town.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back and I plan to start catching up soon.