Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[AGar]

Mmm. Fuck my phone - it just deleted my post.

Re: Almaster - I do believe he missed my new points about his repeated backtracking on multiple occasions. Thus, my entire case isn't latching.

Re: Elleran - His unvote while saying "I have a reason for this, but keep me alive until tomorrow so I can tell you" is uber uber scummy. It's a shame I only have one vote.

Re: drmyshottyizsik - He's an idiot, I'll get that off my chest. His claim to be a doctor isn't believable at all. His scum claim, as ridiculous as it seems, is more believable. Especially when he introduced the "why would I do this" wifom. So much wifom all about.

Re: gonnano - His logic on dr's claim is bad. His logic about scum killing him is worse. Scum have what reason to kill him? He's not a strong player, so even if he is the doc, it's not like he's going to get off a successful protect repeatedly. Also, where do I back off of my case on Almaster? I dismiss the vig note, but otherwise, I keep on him. I'll get to the rest of his case and the holes in his logic when I get to my actual computer.

I want to comment on more, but until I get to a computer, I can't quote multiple people. I should be discharged in the next day or two.

[Espeonage]

VOTECOUNT

3 -

AlmasterGM

- Agar, redtail896, Vel-Rahn Koon (L-4)
2 -

AGar

- gonanno, drmyshottyizsik (L-5)
1 -

gonanno

- ConfidAnon (L-6)
1 -

Elleran

- Hoopla (L-6)
1 -

Zachrulez

- AlmasterGM (L-6)
1 -

myshottyizsik

- Zachrulez (L-6)

Not Voting - Good and Honest, Kid Know Nothing, Elleran

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Countdown Timer:
http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/cus ... c=0&p0=240

[Good and Honest]

I'm posting just to say that I'm emotionally drained by the other game I'm playing with drmyshottyizsik (no, it has nothing to do with drmyshottyizsik's behaviour). I don't know when I'll post here again...

[drmyshottyizsik]

I feel the same G & H, its why I claimed..

[Hoopla]

I feel the same G & H, its why I claimed..

Are you seriously claiming doctor?

[drmyshottyizsik]

Yes I am

[Hoopla]

If you turn out to be lying as town, I will rally to have you banned from the site. Just saying.

If you're just scum, I encourage the real doctor to counterclaim now, even though in other situations, it might be better to wait a little longer. I'd prefer to take the scum D1 lynch.

If you're really a doctor, then you played poorly, claiming for no reason. You'll either be killed (not a bad thing, I suppose) or roleblocked and left alive for wifom purposes. It's the latter that I am worried about.

[Elleran]

I'm voting Elleran now because he is inidividually the scummiest player in the game now, and his weak backtracking and flipflopping seems awfully like scum realising he's in a corner that could get illuminated, and wants to shuffle away quietly. His thoughts on my argument with AGar are also bizarre and seem contrived, and like filler - extra things to fill a post, that look like something, but actually isn't. There's a lot of his play that feels like filler - non-commital, non-probing stuff to fill space. I'm hesitant to declare this as active lurking, because his play has been weird enough to be noticable, but his one commitment he made in this game (the vote on me), he withdrew in his next post after I attacked him. This is scum walking on eggshells, trying not to offend.

Why isn't anyone paying attention to accusations being posed against me?

Re: Elleran - His unvote while saying "I have a reason for this, but keep me alive until tomorrow so I can tell you" is uber uber scummy. It's a shame I only have one vote.

I explained my unvote already. If you aren't satisfied with my explanation, then you can vote me. I have nothing else to say about my vote/unvote.

@Hoopla: How has my playing been weird and noticeable yet no one except you has commented on it? Can you explain?

[redtail896]

@shotty: Why are you claiming doctor?

@Elleran:Two questions. #1 (emphasis mine)

he early PGO claim seems odd. I've personally played with PGO before in real life games, and in most of those games, the PGO, even after a no-cc, early claim, ends up getting shot or killing a doctor or cop accidentally. The reason why PRs target the potential PGO is because Hoopla could be a VT (or even cop) just claiming PGO for safety.

In my past life games, I have learned that early claims of PGO is a pro-town move.

However, seeing AGar's argument that Hoopla has fake claimed before, I can't trust her so easily.

Can you explain the bolded sentence? Specifically, I'm interested in how it interacts with this sentence:

Like I've already mentioned, I've played many times in real life games where the early PGO claim has been used before. In almost all of them, the claimer turns out to be fake.

#2: Do you believe that the following 2 paragraphs are contradictory in any way?

Second, I support lynching liars. I cannot disagree on your point that your claim/unclaim has brought many valuable discussion into place. However, I do not want to risk having a suspicious character in any LyLo situation. I understand this is a far-in-the-future argument, but lynching early poses less risk than later.

I don't think ALL liars are deserving of being lynched. I have already admitted that there were clear merits and successes that Hoopla's fake-claim have brought. I support lynching Hoopla because of the reason that she has clarified for me. I basically find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character right now.

@Zach: do you still favor lynching shotty?

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla: How has my playing been weird and noticeable yet no one except you has commented on it? Can you explain?

I want to answer this with; your buddies haven't decided to bus you yet. The next one or two or the wagon will get town credit in my eyes, so don't delay and leave the bus until late.

PREVIEW EDIT: Redtail, you're on fire with catching the inconsistancies. Nice spot on Elleran. That is classic scum talking because they need to, not because it's what they believe.

[redtail896]

Not so fast Hoopla; you get questions too.

1. Do you think your Elleran vote was an OMGUS? Could it be interpreted that way?

2.

Redtail, you're on fire with catching the inconsistancies. Nice spot on Elleran. That is classic scum talking because they need to, not because it's what they believe.

Had you seen those two examples I pulled up yourself? If not, what "backtracking and flipflopping" had you seen?

3. What do you think about my initial view of your claim (in light of you listing me as those taking a "middling view")? Do you think I'm suspicious and why? For reference, here is my first post after your claim (really, my first post of the game):

Hey everybody. Alright, I'm ready to get to some scumhunting. I guess I'll start by

Claim:

Paranoid Gun Owner

Discuss.

by...by...oh. Well then. I guess we can start with this.

So, while I can understand why you made this claim immediately, I can see 2 main problems. #1, contrary to what you said, I think this may ensure your survival for the time being. Or at least, I find it incredibly unlikely that you will be night killed. No town PR is going to take the risk of targeting you at night, and of course scum won't kill you. Short of being lynched (you seem more sure that this will happen than I am), you'll be around.

#2, I feel like a disproportionate amount of today's discussion will revolve around you now. I find myself agreeing with AGar that you might've better served town by claiming later in the day, after we already had some discussion under our belts. I'm worried that we'll all get distracted by your claim, when we need to scumhunt elsewhere. Thoughts?

For the record, I've never played with a PGO before (to be honest, I had to look it up to see what it was). I'm curious: is/was there a thread in Mafia discussion about PGOs and how much of a benefit/liability they are to town? If not, I think I'll make one after this game is over; I think it'd be an interesting discussion topic.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach: do you still favor lynching shotty?

Yes.

[Hoopla]

Not so fast Hoopla; you get questions too.

Ooh, watch that powertrip. You'll undo all your good work.

I'll answer your questions together, because it covers the same material. I don't think OMGUS is a factor here - it rarely is anywhere in mafia outside of newbie games. His jump on and then off me was unusual, and could have been exacerbated by the pressure I exerted on him, but I don't think he was doing it just because I voted him. I think he thought the best way to approach me was to reattack me, though this mostly makes sense if he is scum. I don't understand his town motivation if there is one, but it is a major flipflop when he unvotes me and changes his policy on LAL.

I didn't catch your first inconsistancy you brought up on Elleran. You should be following up with a vote on Elleran, though. And if not, explain why Almaster is a better candidate.

[redtail896]

@Zach: do you still favor lynching shotty?

Yes.

Why?

I didn't catch your first inconsistancy you brought up on Elleran. You should be following up with a vote on Elleran, though. And if not, explain why Almaster is a better candidate.

I'm waiting to hear Elleran's response before I decide where my vote should be. And I assume you're intentionally ignoring the third question. That's fair for now; you seem to like playing things close to the chest.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach: do you still favor lynching shotty?

Yes.

Why?

He's claimed scum. He's lied at least once. (And I think more than once.) He didn't seem too concerned about being lynched when he claimed scum, which is very inconsistent with the goals of the role of doctor. His play just says scummy to me in capital letters.

[Hoopla]

I'm waiting to hear Elleran's response before I decide where my vote should be. And I assume you're intentionally ignoring the third question. That's fair for now; you seem to like playing things close to the chest.

You're town, so it doesn't matter.

[Elleran]

@Elleran:Two questions. #1 (emphasis mine)

he early PGO claim seems odd. I've personally played with PGO before in real life games, and in most of those games, the PGO, even after a no-cc, early claim, ends up getting shot or killing a doctor or cop accidentally. The reason why PRs target the potential PGO is because Hoopla could be a VT (or even cop) just claiming PGO for safety.

In my past life games, I have learned that early claims of PGO is a pro-town move.

However, seeing AGar's argument that Hoopla has fake claimed before, I can't trust her so easily.

Can you explain the bolded sentence? Specifically, I'm interested in how it interacts with this sentence:

Like I've already mentioned, I've played many times in real life games where the early PGO claim has been used before. In almost all of them, the claimer turns out to be fake.

The first post was a typo that I didn't catch. The second quote you made is correct. If you reread the post where the first quote came from, you can see that the sentence with the typo is inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.

[quote="redtail896]#2: Do you believe that the following 2 paragraphs are contradictory in any way?

Second, I support lynching liars. I cannot disagree on your point that your claim/unclaim has brought many valuable discussion into place. However, I do not want to risk having a suspicious character in any LyLo situation. I understand this is a far-in-the-future argument, but lynching early poses less risk than later.

I don't think ALL liars are deserving of being lynched. I have already admitted that there were clear merits and successes that Hoopla's fake-claim have brought. I support lynching Hoopla because of the reason that she has clarified for me. I basically find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character right now.

[/quote]
Not contradictory at all. At the time I posted the first post, I was thoroughly convinced that Hoopla was lying and was a scum who simply claimed for protection. The second post was posted after I unvoted and reconsidered the possibility of Hoopla not being a scum. My past playing involved both townie and scums declaring fake PGOs before, but scums did it much commonly. This brought me to a quick (and perhaps reckless) assumption and conclusion that Hoopla must be a scum.

@Hoopla: I see that many of my posts have been disorganized. However, I refuse to acknowledge that this disorganization was caused by any anti-town intent.
You said that perhaps my unvote was due to your pressure on me immediately after my vote was cast.

That was an unlinked coincidence.

Because I do not check the internet so often, I cannot post what I come up with instantly. I don't know how to convince you out of your assumption that your vote on me is a direct cause of my unvote, but it is not true.

[Elleran]

EBWOP: Excuse my broken quotes xD

[Hoopla]

@Elleran:Two questions. #1 (emphasis mine)

he early PGO claim seems odd. I've personally played with PGO before in real life games, and in most of those games, the PGO, even after a no-cc, early claim, ends up getting shot or killing a doctor or cop accidentally. The reason why PRs target the potential PGO is because Hoopla could be a VT (or even cop) just claiming PGO for safety.

In my past life games, I have learned that early claims of PGO is a pro-town move.

However, seeing AGar's argument that Hoopla has fake claimed before, I can't trust her so easily.

Can you explain the bolded sentence? Specifically, I'm interested in how it interacts with this sentence:

Like I've already mentioned, I've played many times in real life games where the early PGO claim has been used before. In almost all of them, the claimer turns out to be fake.

The first post was a typo that I didn't catch. The second quote you made is correct. If you reread the post where the first quote came from, you can see that the sentence with the typo is inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.

Sorry, what bit is actually the typo? The bolded bit is meant to say pro-scum? I don't believe that. I think the version as it stands makes more sense, because your last sentence in the first post is justification that you can't trust me easily, which implies you would normally trust me - which makes your previous sentence look not like a typo at all.

Explain yourself better, because you look like you're just making it up.

[Elleran]

Okay, I reread my post

again

and I guess I was distracted as I typed it. I don't know why I put the however there. Basically, the typo was 'pro-town' is supposed to be 'anti-town.' My 'hard to trust Hoopla' attitude is correct as written.

I'm not making anything up, Hoopla. Incredible or insignificant accidents as this can happen.

[Hoopla]

Okay, I reread my post

again

and I guess I was distracted as I typed it. I don't know why I put the however there. Basically, the typo was 'pro-town' is supposed to be 'anti-town.' My 'hard to trust Hoopla' attitude is correct as written.

I'm not making anything up, Hoopla. Incredible or insignificant accidents as this can happen.

It makes it hard to prosecute anyone in this game if you can fall back on this defense safely.

[Hoopla]

Elleran, can you briefly summarise why you were lynched Day 1, as town in Newbie 957?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm on vacation in FL and have limited access. I should be able to get on once a day. From a quick skim from my post yesterday, Elleran's 157 seems the most worrisome. Why are you worried about how much attention you're getting? G&H is actively lurking and isn't doing much scum hunting. I think shotty just needs to be ignored like all the other VIs on the site. KKN's lack of a vote and unwillingness to place one is suboptimal play, but not necessarily scummy.

[gonnano]

Unvote

Vote: Elleran

The AGar wagon doesn't seem to be going anywhere, as AGar and I are the only ones discussing it... one scum is as good as another, though.

[gonnano]

Re: gonnano - His logic on dr's claim is bad. His logic about scum killing him is worse. Scum have what reason to kill him? He's not a strong player, so even if he is the doc, it's not like he's going to get off a successful protect repeatedly. Also, where do I back off of my case on Almaster? I dismiss the vig note, but otherwise, I keep on him. I'll get to the rest of his case and the holes in his logic when I get to my actual computer.

Any doctor is just going off of an informed guess, and that's only a little better than a random guess in my opinion. Shotty is still a risk for the scum.

As Almaster has pointed out, there's not much that you can drop besides the vig note. Basically your argument now is about Almaster latching, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a statement form you in the next few pages where you suddenly realize that agreeing with someone isn't scummy. It will be interesting to see what you do with your vote at that point.