/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Jack]

vote:im***kingdavid

[Jack]

Don't rolefish.

[Jack]

Voting someone who's protested at being role fished is one of the biggest ways to rolefish.

[Jack]

See? I am in no way rolefishing, yet you see how easy it is to turn my words around and make it seem like I am? It's such an easy accusation to make, it's made for scum, especially early game.

UNVOTE, VOTE:SANDO

NOT SO FAST SCUM

Do you deny that putting pressure on someone who is protesting that they are being rolefished is a form of rolefishing (intentional or not)? Because who most often protests at being rolefished? Town pr's. What leads to claims from town pr's? Votes, wagons, acting like they are scummy for balking at being rolefished. That's like a big sign saying "EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHY YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE BEING ROLEFISHED" AKA "ROLE CLAIM PLEASE".

tHE bs scum theory "oh scum love to make easy accusations on page one, anyone doing that is scum duh duh" is just icing on the cake.

[Jack]

Are you guys blind? Why aren't you voting sando?

[Jack]

Unvote, Vote: Jack

Good call, and after a claim is forced out of me your going to be like *innocent* "well it was just an

rvs vote

you know" *innocent*

fos:Sotty

cat got your tongue aka scum can't think of anything to say

[Jack]

If you want to point out exactly how IKD was rolefishing I'm willing to listen, but right now you are either:

Can't you see how that's a terrible idea? Jesus, with one hand, then the other.

[Jack]

I don't see how anyone could interpret Sotty7's vote against you as an RVS vote, given the circumstances surrounding it, so this appeal to emotion is highly suspect.

Of course it wasn't, that was my point. She was going to pretend it was.

[Jack]

UNVOTE, VOTE:SOTTY

"right now I don't have a better place for my vote" <--SCUM BEING DEFENSIVE
"what's the big deal with a little pressure" <-- Look at all of sotty's excuses for her vote and how it isn't a big deal, and then see how they apply 10x better to the people pressuring her. But scum take things personal like that.
"I'd like to point out that zach is lurking" <-- AKA "LET'S SHIFT ATTENTION OFF OF ME PLEASE, HOW ABOUT SOME PRESSURE ON THE PAGE 3 LURKERS"
"rest of sotty's posts"<-- SCUM TIPTOEING

5 more votes.

[Jack]

magna that post lacks a shotty vote. Why do you still have your vote parked on zajnet?

[Jack]

fos:magna

fos:locke lamora

[Jack]

There was rolefishing. But I'd appreciate it if it that subject was dropped--we seem to have escaped without too much being revealed and I'd like to stay that way. That means you sando ok?

unvote, vote:Locke Lamora

[Jack]

unvote, vote:Magna

[Jack]

zajnet is posting elsewhere.

magno is very scummy, don't think it needs to be explained.

[Jack]

hmm Ithink I know who another scum is besides magna

[Jack]

vote hopping is pro town, fake explanations are anti-town.

[Jack]

Is cdb lurking scum?

[Jack]

What do you think? You are allowed to actually express thoughts as opposed to just dropping in one-liners with little substance.

I expressed my thought exactly. My thought was "is cdb lurking scum?"

[Jack]

Holy crap, when is deadline? I've kinda-sorta-almost flaked from the site, but I have a sweet role this game and maybe I'll make a comeback.

claim:masonizer

masonizing FAILED on moi as expected.

unvote, vote:magnaofillusion

but I think I'm voting him already.

[Jack]

vote:moi

other scum between zajnet, imkingdavid, and maybe jason.

Who pm'd the mod asking for clarification about what "goon cop" meant during the night period?

[Jack]

charlie was obvtown, thought I could swing it over to moi in time...also I was confusing this game with another one which had a "person with most votes at deadline gets lynched" mechanic.

[Jack]

So, is what your saying is - what you claimed is not actually what you are because you confused this game with another?

Don't rolefish.

unvote, vote:zajnet

moi is still scum, but zajnet is obvscum too, see for yourself if you don't believe me.

[Jack]

He is very scummy it's true.

[Jack]

I don't like Jack's explanation behind his claimless hammer.

vote Jack

It's the best explanation I've got, sorry

[Jack]

We have these moi and zajnet characters.

[Jack]

jason why don't you vote for someone?

@sotty: yeah, he's amusing inconsistent in a scummy way, I'll probably vote for him if you quit asking me too.

[Jack]

hahaha, nevermind, sorry sotty.

unvote, vote:MoI

[Jack]

That was unrelated to your post by the way.

[Jack]

VOTE NOW JASON, VOTE OR DIE

[Jack]

With how Zach reacted to MOI I think he is likely town at this point. I am willing to listen to a case however.

I try to avoid getting stuck in mental frameworks like that.

[Jack]

Vote: Jack

Accusing of rolefishing at every opportunity, I've already stated why I find this scummy.

Also, this whole 'hammer person is scum' is old, the hammer was ~6 hours pre-deadline, and no other lynch was possible, it needed to happen. Farside gets scumpoints for latching onto it, Jack gains them for happily going along with it.

Jack is muchos scummier.

Yeah, I was mixing it up with my other game that had a "most votes at deadline is lynched" rule. His hammer was much scummier in that context. It was still weird and he's a lurker so it's not all bad.

I would put it at moi-jason--imkingdavid atm, vollkan made some good points about sotty that had been what I was thinking earlier, that conflicts with jason-scum though so it's all up in the air right now. Also vollkan replaced imkingdavid it seems.

But there's no excuse not to be voting moi right now.

[Jack]

also there's one other scum possible/probable who I'm going to keep quiet about at the mo <--just a reminder for myself

[Jack]

Based on meta ythan doesn't seem like his normal town self I would expect.

Jack any reason your voting MOI at this point?

He's scum. People are amusingly ignoring my pr result, which was partly my attention, but still

ythan has been pretty scummy

[Jack]

*intention

[Jack]

I agree, Ythan is probable scum at this point. He's extremely reactive and isn't doing any scum hunting. His vote on Jack is weak and is based strictly off recent posts.

His vote isn't based on my recent posts.

[Jack]

Does Ythan hate being scum?

[Jack]

Oh jason. If I hadn't mislynched you once before.

[Jack]

supreme court

[Jack]

magna-sotty-ythan looks pretty good from where I'm sitting, jury still out on a bunch of other people obviously.

[Jack]

This game is so frustrating. vollkan are you near caught up?

He's posting catch up posts as he goes, that is obvious.

[Jack]

Jason is null.

Sotty how would you feel about lynching ythan today?

[Jack]

Jason is not null. I don't want to lynch anyone but him today.

We don't always get what we want. For example, moi is scum but I appear to be the only one voting him.

I would wagon ythan however. You would not wagon ythan?

[Jack]

moi has been very fakey

jason isn't that different from the game I mislynched him in, and he has scum pushing his lynch

I believe we should lynch ythan however.

unvote, vote:ythan

You just have to lynch lurkers. I read an interesting article the other day on the argumentative theory of reason. Basically our ability to reason didn't evolve as a truth-finding tool, it evolved as an argument producer and evaluator. And so people are very biased against conclusions that don't have much that can be said in argument to justify them. And since lurkers have so few posts, they are a great example, you have to be willing to lynch someone based off of nothing that they've said--but rather the mere fact that they are a lurker. With 2 lurkers it becomes very difficult because then you have to kind of arbitrarily pick one, and there won't be a good reason that you can find to justify it. Ergo we should grasp onto "lynch all lurkers" and ythan's meta, and push this lynch all the way.

[Jack]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 50&start=0

[Jack]

Not voting (5) <-~ vollkan, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet, jasonT1981

Vote ythan.

Well, locke is still v/la, but the rest of you.

[Jack]

Yeah I think those are very valid criticisms of vollkan's catchup posts, and signs of fakery.

fos:vollkan

[Jack]

I was absent for about a week towards the end of day 1

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... NQ&cad=rja

summary: I believe my approach is epistemically sound and have research to back it up.

[Jack]

So with vollkan being scummy (like imkingdavid) sotty is back on the town block.

I propose a sando-farside-jack-sotty "townie discussion group". Although maybe sando still thinks I'm mafia. But I think discussing the game with people you generally trust leads to more insight than arguing with mafia. Topics:

1) jason, guilty or scummy acting townie
2) ythan, lurkerscum?
3) vollkan, does his game summary show lack of real thought, or is it a byproduct of his playstyle? What about imkingdavid, what can we say about him?

[Jack]

Check imkingdavids ISO 7:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2432342

The very picture of a wishy washy, IIoA tentatative vote post.

[Jack]

325 to 331 is just comical –

“I’m voting Jack because he threatened me”
“I mislynced you once in another game that has no bearing on your alignment here, so you must be Town”
“Oh, I remember that. Unvote Jack, that same game makes me think you are Town”

This exchange is so blantant I’m starting to doubt whether the links between Jack and Jason I saw earlier are valid.

Just a few quick questions about this MoI.

You obviously never played with Jack. I dubbed him the person to always do something scummy for reaction purposes. It's why I like playing with him. He gets the game going that way.

I’m going to agree. My experience with Jack shows exactly this behaviour.

Can you show examples of said games that ‘disprove’ the scum meta read that Sotty is presenting? No, I’m not going to hunt through your Wiki for them.

Re: IKD at 149 – These are all valid points. Jack is getting a pass simply based on his history of ‘wacky’ antics. If anything read the Princess Bride Mini that ended in the last month or so. Jack latched onto Sensfan with similar lack of explanation and ended up lynching a Serial Killer.

Regarding Jack’s meta and his play this game – here are his three most recent completed games:

Quick and Dirty Mafia – he flipped Goon.
Gears of War Mafia– he won as a Serial Killer
Alternate Vote Mafia– he was engamed as an undisclosed Town role.

[editors note--these had links]

Take a look at his play in each game and decide which he most resembles. I’m leaning towards Mafia based on his lethargic, listless play in this game and Q&D Mafia.

Did you read Jack’s three recent games that I posted? Are you saying his game here resembles a Town game?

When I used meta to explain my backing off jason you say it is "blatantly scummy" and a reference to another game that

"has no bearing on his alignment"

. But you have frequently brought up meta--you agree with farside that my actions are like my town meta, and then you bring up princess bride as a further argument. You note that I didn't explain my vote and ended up lynching the SK. Later you make a meta case on me, somehow digging up 3 recent games but ignoring that my activity had dropped sitewide for about a week--calling what you had said was town meta scummy.

How can you reconcile that with saying that a reference to another game has "no bearing on someone's alignment"?

[Jack]

325: Jason’s vote on Jack makes no sense and looks like distancing. Jason+2

Do I understand your points system correctly?

Ythan 50
farside 53
Jack 50
Locke 52
MOI 50
Prozac 51
Sando 53
Sotty 57
Jason (nee Zach) 59
Zaj 53

You have me at the lowest, right? But Jasons vote looks like distancing?

313: MOI makes a good point on a Jack-Jason scum link evidence

So why am I at 50?

[Jack]

Hey Zajnet, how about some of those stronger stances I asked for? You seem to have failed to talk about anyone other than MOI since I asked that question. You haven't really said much about MOI either, other than to repeat what's already been said. Any analysis on any other players in the game?

I'm shit for analysis on D1. Charlie is acting scummy, but not enough so that I would feel confidant lynching him. I still feel MOI is the scummiest, for reasons I've already stated (they may be brief but so what?).

We can't afford a no-lynch and deadline is almost here, so I'll go ahead and hammer Charlie.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Charlie

We'll deal with the Jack/MOI situation tomorrow.

Do you still feel that MoI is the scummiest? How is your d2 analysis?

moi
vollkan/imking
zajnet
ythan

^^very good place to find our scum...I might put zajnet over ythan on reflection. Don't know about porochaz.

[Jack]

Oh jason. If I hadn't mislynched you once before.

Actually... reading over supreme court, he played similar there to his early play in this game.

unvote: Jack

You obviously never played with Jack. I dubbed him the person to always do something scummy for reaction purposes. It's why I like playing with him. He gets the game going that way.

I’m going to agree. My experience with Jack shows exactly this behaviour.

Can someone explain the "HUGE difference" between these to me?

“I mislynced you once in another game that has no bearing on your alignment here, so you must be Town”

This is magna's description of my quote. Why is my bringing up supreme court a reference to "a game that has no bearing on jason's alignment"? That's an outright dismissal of meta.

You didn’t reference other games where Jason plays the same. Just a single outlier. Have you played in other games where Jason was mislynched playing like he is?

In the alternative vote game which you linked to his was mislynched day 1 (not by me, I was voting scum).

The article I posted refutes a lot of your comments as well by the way.

[Jack]

I suppose to be fair, magna was just as whiny (sorry but you are :/) when I voted him in small town. Although I eventually got a town read out of it. But it's hard to judge people who throw as much crappy reasoning and rhetoric as they can at any suspicion. Reminds me of how parama reacted in pizzaria mafia as scum, so.

[Jack]

Will post again soon explaining why magna is scum.

It's possible that magna is town and simply jumps on the rhetoric-train for no good reason.

I was defending zang-scum for bad meta reasons at that point in the game too, the "this person isn't as scummy as they think he is because he's often scummy ------ mentally putting them in the town pile" is a bit of a mental trap that I can fall into.

So I will step back a bit from this game,

zajnet or ythan may really be the best lynch.

[Jack]

hmm, moi's posts leading up to deadline don't seem to be from a scum point of view.

It seems like I dropped jason after the start today because of moi going on his wagon. He is actually scummy and I trust sotty and farside.

unvote, vote:Jason

[Jack]

zajnet had 10 posts on site in the three days he didn't post here. He was also quite active and towny in the gamy I played with him where he was towny.

unvote

To let things settle down a bit.

jason-zajnet--ythan, is possible.

[Jack]

jason-zajnet--ythan, is possible.

mmm, this leaves out vollkan. Can't think of anything porochaz has said. Had a slight town impression frome locke.

[Jack]

Zajnet is scum

vote:zajnet

[Jack]

Whoops, got prodded. Time flies when I'm taking 16 hours of honors courses >.> speaking of which, gotta run to one of them. I'll post a catch-up post and some analysis later tonight.

This post is today, wednesday.

He posted content in another game today.

On tuesday he had 8 posts, in 3 different games.

monday he posted once

sunday was the last time he'd posted

So why is he pretending like he's been busy with honors courses and hasn't had time to post? That excuse reads fake to me.

In trader mafia as town he had 93 posts--10% of the game. Here he has 14 posts--less than 4%. And they have been very content light.

[Jack]

I dont dispute him being busy with courses, I know how busy you can get when doing stuff like that. My final year nearly everything was sacrificed to get it done, social life... games etc. I had little time to do anything else.

How recent was Trader mafia though? Maybe he has just taken on too many games and is suffering for that.

But he obviously isn't busy with courses

[Jack]

I'm gonna say the scumteam is probably

zajnet
jason
vollkan (bussing)

[Jack]

unvote, vote:Jason

Last page is pretty bad, someone hammer, don't wait for a claim.

[Jack]

We absolutely have to lynch zajnet tomorrow though.

[Jack]

ok

unvote, vote:zajnet

I was thinking there weren't any worthwhile power roles after cop and that it would be best to push through without a claim. doc is sort of confirmed though...hmm.

[Jack]

Baring a counterclaim of jason, there is no earthly reason not to lynch zajnet instead.

[Jack]

You do realize that when I flip town, the town will look towards you tomorrow., right? this is a very dangerous counterclaim if you are telling the truth.

[Jack]

Zajnet is so clearly the lynch for tomorrow.

[Jack]

How about 3 letters, p-o-e? That alone leads me to zajnet and ythan. But ok:

Whoops, got prodded. Time flies when I'm taking 16 hours of honors courses >.> speaking of which, gotta run to one of them. I'll post a catch-up post and some analysis later tonight.

This post is today, wednesday.

He posted content in another game today.

On tuesday he had 8 posts, in 3 different games.

monday he posted once

sunday was the last time he'd posted

So why is he pretending like he's been busy with honors courses and hasn't had time to post? That excuse reads fake to me.

In trader mafia as town he had 93 posts--10% of the game. Here he has 14 posts--less than 4%. And they have been very content light.

I dont dispute him being busy with courses, I know how busy you can get when doing stuff like that. My final year nearly everything was sacrificed to get it done, social life... games etc. I had little time to do anything else.

How recent was Trader mafia though? Maybe he has just taken on too many games and is suffering for that.

But he obviously isn't busy with courses

The bs in the lurker excuses is pretty obvious. You have to read it that way though. One thing about your points system is that you should divide points by number of posts, otherwise it will miss the lurkers.

Also it looks like I was right and that we should have pushed to a lynch without a claim.

[Jack]

vote:zajnet

[Jack]

Im not sure yet, 4 out of the 5 I would have at the bottom of my town to scum list. However I liked the wagon (easy for me to say that now, I know). I would say I would reread, but my reads are so marginal anyway...

Just vote for zajnet.

[Jack]

justin justin.justin justin justin justin justin justin justin justin justin

I'm really stumped about what to make of this at the moment.

[Jack]

Jack: Very odd up and down relationship. Zack thought Jack was town for no obvious reason. justin started off thinking Jack was scum based on some fairly obvious points in his game summary, votes him when pushed to do so, then suddenly realises he must be town based on meta that Jack himself points out. This and the end of day "hammer without a claim" thing feel really forced. Warrants further inquiry.

Maybe this is just standing out to me because it's personal, but the quality of this summary is terrible lacking. I don't see how you do a summary and say nothing about iso 54-55, and "warrants further inquiry" is wishy washy. Combined with typing in the wrong name 11 times it doesn't seem like there was genuine scumhunting going on in that post.

I'm unsure about whether scum would get their buddies name wrong, but ergo did just replace in. If zajnet is scum too, then this slot under ythan also mistakenly described me as the person who hammered charlie instead of their scumbuddy...bizarre.

[Jack]

You're right, I missed that part of the intro. Weird way of doing a reread.

But anyway, I said to myself "it has to be ergo because the only other option for zaj's partner is porochaz and he seems town" but I checked the playerlist and saw sando, reread in ISO, sando is scum. Very much so.

Will lay it out tomorrow.

[Jack]

Also, this whole 'hammer person is scum' is old, the hammer was ~6 hours pre-deadline, and no other lynch was possible, it needed to happen. .

Teaser

[Jack]

hmm sando has visited but not posted.

One or two things strike me as just plain weird in iso so atm I'm inclined to say zajnet is still the lynch. But I will go over it and think about it.

[Jack]

I love how everyone is just like 'sando? ...yeah he's scum' once they look at him closely.

[Jack]

I love how everyone is just like 'sando? ...yeah he's scum' once they look at him closely.

Based on some of my reads throughout this game I have a scum list, a town list and an inbetween not sure list.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do love it. You kind of don't notice him but when you look back it's obvious.

Weren't you the one defending Jason all day yesterday.

No also see above.

Quick why is Zajant more scummier then Sando, Jack?

He isn't, sando is the lynch for today see my posts last page, I have my own reasons for not voting yet.

[Jack]

You quote me:

a) claiming you were guilty when you were not a town approved target
b) claiming the jason wagon was bad when he was to the town approved target
c) calling sando scum after one person jumped on them

and conclude that I've been floating wherever popular opinion went? You criticize my targeting "lurkers who aren't around to fight back" when you have been voting zajnet?

I thought you were scum in smalltown because your cases were bad reasoning strung together with polemical rhetoric. I figured on it being your town style eventually and dropped you as a suspect this game when I reread that one. I also remembered arguing that game (perhaps you remember too) that zang wasn't scum like people were saying, because I'd seen him play scummy town. That was also a parallel of jason this game.

[Jack]

unvote, vote:sando

Sorry for inactivity, interests elsewhere at the moment, etc.

[Jack]

zaj is scum and I made a pretty solid case on him yesterday where he lied about his excuse for absence, but:

unvote, vote:sando

[Jack]

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

[Jack]

I am stumped by my semblance of a reread. Nobody really jumps out to me as scum. Sando, Poro, and Jack all exhibit elements of scumminess, but nothing blatantly a scum-tell. I need to reread looking specifically for connections to Jason now, but a preliminary look over MOI's analysis seems to show that Sando is the scummiest because of voting patterns. However, I am not comfortable enough in that to vote for anyone, especially with Sando at L-2.

Sorry for needed to be prodded (again).

I'm going to sound like lurking, wagoning scum, but that's OK.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Jack

There's nothing I could say that wouldn't be a direct quote from someone in the last page. Jack is scum.

Where does this change come from?

Whoops, got prodded. Time flies when I'm taking 16 hours of honors courses >.> speaking of which, gotta run to one of them. I'll post a catch-up post and some analysis later tonight.

This post is today, wednesday.

He posted content in another game today.

On tuesday he had 8 posts, in 3 different games.

monday he posted once

sunday was the last time he'd posted

So why is he pretending like he's been busy with honors courses and hasn't had time to post? That excuse reads fake to me.

In trader mafia as town he had 93 posts--10% of the game. Here he has 14 posts--less than 4%. And they have been very content light.

Quoting this again.

Sando-Zajnet. Do the right thing farside.

[Jack]

vote:zajnet

I do not have high hopes for this day. Erg0 is probably the buddy after all.

[Jack]

unvote, vote:erg0

@sotty: try blocking zajnet tonight and see if you stop the kill again

Yeah yeah, I'm not rolefishing. Just explaining my switch.

[Jack]

She should have told us who she was going to roleblock.

vote:zajnet

[Jack]

"he scum are hiding in Sando, Erg0, Zajnet and Locke"--sotty

[Jack]

That assures what, that the kill will be blocked? That I'm scum? That Erg0 is scum?

Explain your thinking here please Zajnet.

[Jack]

Why did you think it was possible that she had role information insuring that you were scum?

[Jack]

Why would scum have chosen to no kill?

[Jack]

How is it remotely likely?

[Jack]

We have a scummy lurker. You do not not lynch scummy lurkers.

[Jack]

Although Locke is possible. One or the other, lets lynch one and see.

[Jack]

No it's totally zajnet. Come on.

[Jack]

Someone hammer.

[Jack]

JUST HAMMER ZAJNET

[Jack]

peer pressure is too persuasive :p