Mini 245 - Stick Figures Mafia - Game Over!

[Karo]

Well, well, well. I think I have to get used to the board's lingo. When I noticed the game would be 'starting soon' in the queue-thread, I thought it would be a matter of hours, but it took days to commence. Silly me.

Anyway,

Vote: Mathcam

for being obese

[Karo]

Vote: Karo No smoking!

Smoking? Oh, I see what you mean. I thought I'd be a blind guy with a white cane, but in fact I am the cool one-armed tough guy with a giant cigarette. I like my interpretation better though, smoking's bad for your health, after all.

Isn't it great how well these drawings work as an inducement to post something? 8)

[Karo]

Mathcam was voting for "Bruno", so unless the mod deceides this vote applies to Narnian, there should be only three people voting for him.

Hey, I have some spare time right now.

LyingBrian: 1 (BabyJesus)
Bacde: 1 (Tyfo)
Mlaker: 1 (shelper)
Mathcam: 1 (Karo)
Karo: 1 (bdonlan)
BabyJesus: 2 (Changling bob, Narnian)
Narnian: 3(4?) (Bacde, BabyJesus, possibly mathcam, he voted for Bruno), Dragon Phoenix
Mlaker: 1 (LyingBrian)

[Karo]

Let's make him/her make a roleclaim before we lynch him.

That goes without saying.

We would stand somewhat weakened if we were to lose two Townies D1/N1.

That's pretty obvious.

I do agree that his/her answers has been pretty vague recently, it might indicate scummious behaviour - or simply, not any time on hand.

So you agree with mathcam. How have Narnian's answers been 'pretty vague' recently? People were suggesting a

random

bandwagon on him and he dared to disagree. That doesn't make him look scummy in my book. You hopping on the wagon stating that 'his answers have been pretty vague recently' on the other hand, does.

I'm still in favor of bandwagoning for a roleclaim - let us just NOT make this a key gain for the mafia if he/her is to be innocent.

Not sure if I understand you correctly. You emphasize Narnian should have the chance to roleclaim, before a lynch? In that case that would be the third painfully obvious statement of your posting.

However, the mafio might not have voted yet, and I nearly hope they not think and bandwagon Narn, so that we might have some ... stable evidence? (Lack of words, english is not my first language).

Sorry, I don't understand.

I just re-read some posts, and I do find Changling Bob's "Why don't we run you up?" comment kind of suspicious; either he wants to start a new bandwagon on BJ, or he wants to defend Narn? Either way, it is kind of suspicious, so

FOS: Changling Bob

.

I disagree. Let me elaborate: BabyJesus was awfully aggressive right from the start. You’d think he would give the game some time to unfold, because leaving out the investigative roles, seeking clues by means of discussion is the town’s only way to detect scum. He however insisted on a bandwagon against Narnian, whose only blunder was to have not correctly logged in. I actually agree with BabyJesus that in principle there is no way to be sure of scum in our situation on day one, however I don’t think that randomly starting wagons is the best way of dealing with this problem. Therefore I can understand ChanglingBob’s reaction, who seemed to be irritated by BabyJesus’ behaviour. ‘Defendning Narn’ as you call it, does not make him suspicious, because there is no suspiciously behaving player to defend. It rather boils down to a way of playing the game.
Concluding, I find your posting most suspicious.

Unvote, Vote Tyfo

.

FOS: BabyJesus

for insisting on a random bandwagon so early in the game. My suggestion: Give the game some time to unfold, instead of pushing the bandwagon from the start.

[Karo]

Karo, why do you think I was stating the obvious? To enlargen the fact that someone is pushing forward - to enlighten the community that something rotten is going on.

I was attempting to analyse your posting and that included these statements. Apart from those I tried to highlight what I thought was suspicious.

[Karo]

It just seemed you was trying to make me look suspicious by stating the obvious fact that I was stating obvious facts. ;)

That is not correct. Stating the obvious was just the icing on the cake of your posting. I have clearly stated the reasons why I found your posting suspicious in my posting 52. The main reasons were your evaluation of Narnian's previous postings ("pretty vague"), and your reasoning for FOSing Changeling Bob.
Please understand that I won't repeat myself in detail.

I'll stand by my vote risking that we might get something out of Narninian (or some who vote the 7th vote).

Well, while I still do not approve of this tactic, or at least the way it is carried out, I do understand the logic behind it. Still I think your way of following this 'wagon makes you stand out.

Also I dislike ponies.

[Karo]

Karo, as english is not my first language I may have used wrong words - but I just thought that Narninians post were I little short; like he could not find anything to defend himself with; sorry again if I have used words that did not mean this.

No problem, it's not my first language either. However I think I understood you posting and your reason and that's why my vote stands as well.

[Karo]

This is quite puzzling if you ask me and the more happens the less I understand. Things that stroke me as odd:

BabyJesus unvoting Narnian, then voting mathcam, quoting a paragraph by him which is hardly related to the game

64

, then voting Narnian again later on.
If you don't give reasons for your actions how are we supposed to understand them?

Shelper hops on the 'wagon. Stating that "

this is about as good a scenario as day 1 can get, bar scum accidentally revealing themselves

". I too find this suspicious, mind you,

but

: Wasn't that the reasoning of everyone else as well who thought it was a good idea to start the 'wagon in the first place?
Curiously the same people who voted for Narnian now turn on Shelper, namely Tyfo FOSing him in

72

, and Bacde who is voting him in

73

(even though he gave an explanation why bandwagons like these are a good thing in

39

). All this happens after Changling Bob FOSed him (

71

).
My head hurts, where is my medicine?

[Karo]

If you don't give reasons for your actions how are we supposed to understand them?

Well, that part has been answered with

79

, which I couldn't read while typing my last posting. Besides, I'd like my Finger pointing at someone else now. But before I do that I would like to hear from Bacde, how his posts...

39

Although I do prefer a bandwagon with reason behind it than a random bandwagon, they are pretty much a required part of a Day 1.

59

Either way, this bandwagon feels like a good bandwagon to me.

and...

73

I don't think Narn purposely rolled the Day 1 bandwagon at himself with the wrong account spiel, and there is no reason to continue a random bandwagon, simply because there is no viable way to say that it is a good bandwagon, or for the person being attacked to defend themselves.

... go together. Especially since he used the last one to vote Shelper.
That's it for now.

[Karo]

It's Tuesday already and there hasn't been anything from Mlaker yet. This attitude is not healthy.

Unvote, vote: Mlaker

[Karo]

Good jorb reading the thread.

I think it was a joke, he used the phrase before in this game.

An interesting development so far. I still 'have a hunch' at least one of the people agreeing to the 'wagon would be mafia. Of those, BabyJesus is currently the least suspicious in my eyes. The whole affair needs further examination.

Furthermore, it's always annoying to have a replacement. The new player has to be found first, then he'll post a 'I'll read the thread and post something later' and finally we hear from him. I think I'll simply modkill lurkers in my own games (if I should ever mod them on this board). Just thinking loud here.

[Karo]

umm, which he & which phrase are you talking about, Karo?

BabyJesus has used the phrase "Has <player> given last words yet" already in posting 25. But then again I could be confused.

[Karo]

Unvote

for now.

[Karo]

No, I'm claiming that we have

no evidence

that he is scum, and yet some people are perfectly willing to string him up. The game is lynch the scum, not lynch the townies.

I am with you on this. We have no evidence he is scum. Furthermore the bandwagon has archieved its goal - to cause some stir and ignite discussion. I am surprised people are holding so fast to their idea of lynching a random player. I am still not sure what they think is worthy of 'evidence' that earns its name.

That said I have to admit that there are some arguments in favour of continuing the 'wagon to its bitter end. Namely: risk of exposing a power role when going for another player, or just exposing another player's role at all. In retrospective it would have been better, if Narninian hadn't claimed in the first place. If I should get into a likewise situation (random bw on day 1) I'll refrain from claiming.

The whole situation put me into an exigency. I can't condemn the given strategy from the shoulder, as it admittedly has some merits.

You are making this really difficult for me. This is my second game, and I'm trying hard, but I can't read any of you. I have just reread the whole thread and understood that my previous accusations have very little ground.

My conclusion is the following: I will sleep over it and if nothing comes up, I shall put a vote on narninian and (possibly) end his misery.

[Karo]

Maybe there is another way out: When voting someone, the chance to hit a townie is bigger than hitting scum. Neither cop nor mafia had time to act, thus the lack of 'evidence'. Obviously people do not know to make better use of this day than to start a random bandwagon.
Why not let the day end peaceful?

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch.

[Karo]

Blackberry needs to make more than one posting (not counting 140).

He ended his last one (141) with a question and took no action even though he said he reread the thread. He is the only player along with Tyfo who has not decided to take action so far.

[Karo]

sigh....

Are all these unneccesary comments just a thing you do, or are you just trying to appear to be not lurking?

Didn't you tell us you didn't vote, because there were other people you wish to review (183)? We are still waiting for that review.

[Karo]

(What does pray tell mean?)

"by all means", it's an emphasis.

[Karo]

However, I will go with my suspision of BJ - maybe it's just a silly thing he does, but it could be as I previously stated.

Vote: BabyJesus

Well, well, well. That does it. I will go with my suspicion of you, if you don't mind.
Reading your posts did not do anything to convince me otherwise.
This time I won't let go so easily.

Unvote, Vote: Tyfo

[Karo]

Funny, things like BDonlan not posting slipped me by.

Don't mind me, though. I only want to bump the thread and incite people to keep posting, after all it has been more than three weeks since this day started.

[Karo]

Tyfo, where art thou? Say something, anything...

[Karo]

I am here Karo, I have some stinches (you know, thread) in my spine, and it hurts!

To tired to write anything now, it is.

I'm sorry to hear that. Take your time.

[Karo]

I don't buy it either.

[Karo]

It's curious how so many people accept a random bandwagon as a favorable way to end day one when there was no previous night.

[Karo]

This game makes excellent progress so far. One godfather down, and a townie with no abilities is the town's only loss.

Lynching a mafioso (a godfather no less) also somewhat seems to corroborate the theory of a random bandwagon I (among others) so vividly questioned. However, please keep in mind that it was still pure luck to hit a mafia with this strategy.

I am quite aware that recent developments shine a bad light on me. To be frank, I hardly even looked at Narninian's postings at all, since I figured, as there wasn't anything he could defend against, there was no point in looking for scum tells anyway. Consider that not every player who wasn't on this bandwagon necessarily had ulterior motives.

At this point I can't help but concede that the strategy used holds some merits.

Well, we've certainly got a lot of information from yesterday to go on now, based on who seemed the most reluctant skittish about joining the Narn bandwagon.

The circle of people alive, who were not on this bandwagon is manageable (please correct this list, if I made a mistake, it's 1:23am here and I'm tired):

Changeling Bob
Blackberry
Karo
Tyfo

There is a good chance one of these four people is scum. Personally I'd like to deduct myself from it, increasing the probability of hitting scum slightly, but some of you might not agree with me here.

Time for a reread with this new information.
Cam

Indeed. I just hope further contributions of mine are not again rectified by a random strategy that strikes gold on accident.

[Karo]

Let me just add a new line of attack: Why is Tyfo, a claimed doc not dead?

I can think of only few instances were this would happen and and all of them are rather unlikely.

I pointed out that Tyfo appeared scummy to me before, and it does not help much that he lives, opposing to a mere townie that was lynched. He also is one of the four people who did not vote for Narninian. I'll be looking at his posts more closely especially considering that Narninian was scum if no one else does.

Tyfo, who did you protect and why?

My

FOS: Tyfo

might turn into a vote shortly.

[Karo]

Err... Confirm vote Tyfo for the post you just put up? Sounds like a scum gambit to me.

You are right, I should've done that.

Vote: Tyfo

[Karo]

Err... Confirm vote Tyfo for the post you just put up? Sounds like a scum gambit to me.

You are right, I should've done that.

Vote: Tyfo

This is a bad vote. I agree there is a VERY good chance he's faking. But why take that chance?

You're right, I shouldn't have done tha-

Well anway, I'll closely watch the thread and may retract the vote if needed.
At the moment I think putting some pressure on Tyfo is a good thing.
As for your comment why we should take the chance, I don't know yet. I'll think about that and make a decision later on.

[Karo]

I was equally surprised that I was not nightkilled, and I guess the following options is possible;

1) The mafia has more than 1 kill, and I was protected by another doctor (is this even possible?)

Possible, but just as unlikely as kinky stuff like role deflectors/ blockers and such.

2) The mafia wants to use me as their scapegoat by leaving me alive and killing another.

Possible, but isn't this introducing what players call the Wine-In-Front-Of-Me-Debate?

a) You're the only claimed power-role. You lived, while a plain townie was killed.

conclusion:

You were lying about being a docter and you're scum.

b) Add a layer to that: The mafia let you live because then you would look suspicious to other players who would then lynch you.

conclusion:

You are the doc you claim to be.

c) And another: You and your mafia buddies want the town to assume the mafia avoided lynching you (see b)) as you looked shady by living through the night and that is actually why you are not suspicious, but rather appear as a victim of the mafia's plot. Cunning.

conclusion:

You are with the mafia.

d) ...

Okay, with c) it gets really improbable but I think I made my point: We could add more layers, but there would be no end to it and guessing which of these reverse-psychology tactics is the right one is pure speculation. This is why some players cut this whole story short by assuming the most obvious reasoning: a) You are scum.

3) They thought that another victim might be the better kill.

Why should LML be a better kill?

4) I'm a lying scum.

That's what I think.

Oh, and please someone correct me, if I misunderstood the wifom theory, this is the first time I try to apply it. Thanks.

[Karo]

I admit it makes me look bad, but that's happened to several people, and besides, there are better people to be looking at than me.

Who, and why?

[Karo]

I just reread the thread and yes, Changling Bob attacked BJ's strategy of a random bandwagon from the beginning...

Why don't we run you up if you're so insistant we do it to someone?

...to the end, while always quarelling with him and attacking his tactic.

If he belongs to the mafia, he is indeed very bold. In his place, I had run with the crowd long ago, but he is really besetting. Did he know how this bandwagon would turn out? However, there is no denying he was the most active defender of Narninian who turned out godfather.

Therefore

Unvote, Vote Changling Bob

[Karo]

So many docs. Isn't there a little doc inside everyone of us?
There must be a hidden rule somewhere, where it says mafia have to claim doc somewhere during the game.

So it's either you or Tyfo. And while it's unfortunate to lose our 2nd most important power-role, we can make a 50/50 trade in any case. And we got the godfather too. This should be good.

As you said, at this point it doesn't really matter who we kill of you, since the other will be dead anyway, so let's just finish this quickly.

[Karo]

As you said, at this point it doesn't really matter who we kill of you, since the other will be dead anyway, so let's just finish this quickly.

Having said that, I think CB's statement makes him a little more believable, since if he was mafia, he could've chosen to claim any other role to avoid this conflict where it is either Tyfo or him. So yes, counterclaiming doc takes some of my suspicion of you.

Still the result will be the same wether we lynch you or Tyfo. At least we can be sure not both of them are scum.

Unvote, Vote Tyfo

, as I think it's more likely to hit scum this way.

[Karo]

If we do not resolve the doctor question, chances are the mafia will not kill the real doc tonight as that would expose the fake one. By no means therefore essential to lynch one of them now - the real doc might get lucky and save someone.

Quoted for emphasis. If they simply pick another player they will delay the lynch of one of their mafioso until

we

act.

Oh yes, and why mathcam, BJ?

[Karo]

Before cop claims, what do you all think of my idea?

[Karo]

Yeah, so once the doc's out of the way, mafia don't have to go through the trouble of guessing whom to nightkill.

We have scum in front of our noses and people are arguing about outing the cop.

[Karo]

Blackberrie's posting 375, in which he proposes to make the cop claim does not sit well with me. I very much doubt this strategy will "

highly increase our victory...

".

My best idea is to focus on those players who were not on the Narninian 'wagon (even though it includes me), as there is a good chance at least one of them is scum.

From those people

Tyfo

is the most suspicious to me. Then there is

CB

, I can't deceide if he was genuinly against this strategy in general or because a fellow mafioso was in danger of being lynched. As I had similar arguments against this lynch, I am really unsure what to think about him at the moment.
Finally there is

Blackberry

, which ranks third for the above mentioned posting.

[Karo]

I'm with you on this, as long as we keep both of the claimed docs in mind for later.

Unvote, Vote: Blackberry

[Karo]

Mathcam seems to be a good voice of reason, wanting us to lynch one of our two claimed docs, but I just want to let it be known right now that I think Karo is scum.

Taking a subtle shot at poor Karo, don't we? My reasoning was similar to that of mathcam. If you think I'm scum, vote me.

[Karo]

Couldn't it also be possible that the mafioso we managed to pin down (at the cost of one doc) also has some sort of ability, like mafia-investigator or mafia-roleblocker or something? In that case it would be better to lynch one of them right now.

[Karo]

That's five, if I'm not mistaken. Time to claim. Blackberry, are you a doc too?

And I agree with DP, the cop shouldn't waste a night-action on one of the claimed docs. I'd recommend one of those who have not voted on Narninian, which leaves... me (given BB is lynched). I'm fine with that. Make your choice.

[Karo]

What is the point of not garunteeing yourself a scum kill?

FoS

When there is a 50% chance of getting scum, and a 100% chance for a trade I see no need for the cop to a) investigate and b) come out in the open. I just don't like the idea of the cop coming out (445), when our doc is already exposed and probably killed tonight.

[Karo]

I bet the Blackberry replacement will claim a power-role, presumably cop.

[Karo]

Here I go,

Blackberry is scum

. I am willing to trade tomorrow in case I should be wrong.

[Karo]

BJ, why on earth would you want to force another claim? They'll probably just take advantage of BJ's now-infamous willingness to temporarily believe every doc claim and just claim doc.

Uh, yeah. That's what I wanted to ask too. What did DP do to make you vote for him?

[Karo]

I think he meant give himself up in exchange

That's correct.
I will consider giving away my source if the majority of players want me to, but I'd rather keep it to myself.

As for me being sure about my statement: There is a very high probability I am right. At least it's good enough to bet my 'life'. I know you're curious now, but elaborating further would give away everything immediately. Sorry for being so secretive but I think you'll understand once everything is revealed.

[Karo]

[quote="shelper"]While i don't want to know the identity of his source, i want to know how it works.[/quote]

The information is not coming from another player.

[Karo]

Good luck, town.

[Karo]

I think I learned a lot from this game. I acted terrible on day one, trying to pick apart everyone's posting.

On day two I think it was the right move to claim BBerry is scum without giving away my identity. If only the doc protected me, we would have even less losses.

Fun game. Thanks to the mod for modding!

[Karo]

And i never even got a style upgrade.
As for more figure involvement, how about PMing the mod with what you want to do.
I send a brief doodle of me assaulting BJ with my skateboard, maybe all power roles have to do something similar?

Good Idea. And if a role gets killed in the process, Brian could use the existing image and turn it into a deathscene which would be posted at the start of the next day.