Mini 1035 - Devil's Town - GAME OVER

[Untrod Tripod]

vote Nexus

because fuck the Protoss

[Untrod Tripod]

[quote="LynchMePls"
Lynch all Lurkers. Agree or disagree. Why?
[/quote]

I don't think lynching lurkers is a good plan. Just like you shouldn't lynch everyone who joins bandwagons, everyone who hammers town and everyone who uses run-on sentences. I think lurking is a tell, but not necessarily a scumtell. Context counts. You should call them out on their lurking, but a response of "hey, post some goddamn content!" is what your response should be. "Lynch the lurker!" is pretty scumtastic, imo, unless said lurker already was showing some scumtells.

[Untrod Tripod]

LynchMePls wrote:
@Dr. Pepper: Does that mean your vote is no longer an RVS vote?

Yes.

ow, my brain

[Untrod Tripod]

You guys are crazy if you think that is a scum tell.
OMGUS isn't really that big of a deal, people act like it's a major scum tell -- it isn't. The fact that it was during the RVS makes it much much less of a big deal.

Also, I don't like how Lynchmepls and nexus piled on the Blaze wagon solely off of that RVS vote.

QFT. I'm not going to put a vote on anyone for it, but I agree that calling an RVS OMGUS vote scummy is...um...foolish

[Untrod Tripod]

I just want to point something out. Dr P and podium are having an argument that, essentially, boils down to how they interpret this:

VOTE:Dr Pepper

which, I'd like to remind you guys was
- the 3rd post in the game
- in response to a random vote.

so, I guess what I'm trying to say is
- chill
- out
- dude

I'm not going to make judgement on either podium or dr p's alignment, although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

[Untrod Tripod]

Also, @everyone, care to share your opininons on this post I made? It seemed to have gotten lost under the creation of a new thread page.

I'm suddenly finding it very suspicous that Dr P. was the only one that considered Blaze's vote to be OMGUS, and for him to attempt to pursuade everyone it was, only for Blaze to come out and say it was.

tl;dr, Dr P. and Blaze are scumbiddies, and I found possible evidence.

I don't follow. What's your evidence?

[Untrod Tripod]

Vote Untrod Tripod

I will go ahead and join the bandwagon. I'm keeping an eye on Dr.Pepper.

well technically your second vote makes it a bandwagon, especially the part where there's no reason given for it.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.
Vote: untrod tripod

bloodthirsty much? I realize that voting and stuff has to take place at the beginning of the game, but I really don't think you can make hard and fast calls on someone's alignment with this little information given. I'm getting scummy vibes from Dr P's posts like this

Things podium has lied about
Blaze's vote being random and light-hearted
giving Blaze the benefit of the doubt
while condemning me with assumptions
My reasons for voting Blaze
His OMGUS vote
and for pressure to contribute
hard since he's being defended for no reason
Me calling any player scummy
The severity of his slips

I'm a cautious players, so I tend to avoid saying "he's scum, he's scum, he's scum" early. That's just how I roll.

A question to Nexus and LMP: why did you vote on the Blaze bandwagon?

[Untrod Tripod]

@Untrod Tripod: Your vote for Nexus was random, please place a real vote. And also happy scumday

no

unvote Nexus

the only person I'm getting scummy twinges from is Dr Pepper, and I don't want him to get lynched just yet.

Our votes are the only thing that will get the scum on edge- use them.

I disagree. I think if you go through this game with the idea that you have to have your vote on someone at all times, your vote isn't worth as much. I don't think voting puts any pressure on people whatsoever unless they know that your vote carries actual weight. That's why RVS is not all that scary. If you get two or three votes on you during RVS, it's meaningless. People don't actually think you're scum, so you don't think that a vote = a desire to actually lynch that player. If you just use your vote to "apply pressure", then that player knows that when push comes to shove, you probably won't let them be lynched until they get a reason to think they're scum. Therefore, I don't use my vote on people who I'm not willing to lynch. I'm not willing to hammer Dr Pepper, and I'm not entirely convinced he's not just an overreacting townie. That being said, there are some things he said in his last post that really bug me.

OK, you guys don't like my posting style. Here is a wall of text:

Not everyone dislikes your posting style in and of itself. In fact, I personally think that using bullet points is a great tool. However, you need to understand this: forum mafia is not just a logic game. You need to understand that at its heart, the objective is to convince people to do what you want. You cannot win over a crowd with bullet points. Considering that (especially at this stage of the game) mafia is largely based on things you can't prove, you need to think about convincing people rather than just stating your opinions. Have you ever tried to have a discussion with someone who doesn't argue, but instead just states their opinions and states that they think you're wrong? That person comes off as being inflexible, arrogant and incapable of open-minded thinking. I'm not saying that you're coming off as all of those things right now, but realize that it really helps your case when you actually talk to people, rather than just say "these are the things I think. This is why you're wrong". I don't think the issue is so much your points as how you're expressing them.

podium123456 has lied about statements I made. He has since recanted claiming it is not that serious ROFLcopter LOLerskates. And he complains that I am pushing to hard on Blaze's since it is day one. Well go read it again, I spent most of my time defending from podium's bullshit instead of pressuring Blaze. I was using a weak tell because it was so early in day one. Instead of letting a wagon get going, podium does his best to break it up, FAST.

Yes. You are pushing too hard on Blaze. You swapped out your RV for a real vote for a really terrible reason. When people called you on it, you kept pushing. Podium was trying to break up the wagon (this is of course assuming he and Blaze aren't scumbuddies...which is just as likely as any two players in this game being scumbuddies imo)

And for those who cry about bullet points, I was trying to be brief. Walls of text hurt the town, so does quoting whole posts to respond to one point. podium has been creating some pretty large white noise. You guys must be able to see what's going on. Go back and read it again. The RVS ended when podium voted me.

see above. Walls of text do NOT hurt the town. Stating your opinions and trying to convince people to follow you is how the game progresses. Coldly stating your opinions and refusing to try arguing for your opinions hurts the town. As I said, I think people are responding negatively to how you're playing, not just what you're saying. Being brief isn't a problem. Being snide is a problem. We see "what's going on", the question really is if YOU do.

Blaze needs to get his non-contributing ass in here. The only reason I can see podium defending Blaze so hard is trying to protect his scum-buddy. Seriously, it is very enlightening.

Agree on the first point, disagree strongly on the second. What is podium is town and he thinks lynching Blaze will a. make us down a pro-town player b. not get us any possible reads on other players.

BTW @ Mod: Please replace me. I will accept the ban/blacklist.

...why? Just people people are voting for you? Seriously, instead of running away from criticism, why don't you try to get people to agree with you? Convince them you're not scum. It would be INCREDIBLY UNFAIR for whoever replaces into your slot.

[Untrod Tripod]

...did you really just hammer the replacement?

[Untrod Tripod]

Should this be my only post, I suggest that you strongly assume there is at least one scum on my wagon, because if there isn't there's not much hope for this town anyway.

It takes 5 to lynch you. You're not gonna vote yourself so there's only 3 other players in the game. Statistically speaking it would be rare that at least one scum wouldn't be on your bandwagon regardless of your alignment. But if you're saying that you're so valuable to the town that to lose you would spell the doom of us all, I'll cleverly point that out as melodramatic fear-mongering.

The player slot's questionable replacement is the scummiest action in the game so far.

IMO, your trying to lynch the replacement before they even get a chance to post is the scummiest action in the game so far.

vote Albert B. Rampage

I didn't like your trying to fake a bandwagon on me when there was absolutely nothing to go on, and I don't like your attempted hammer on that slot. I don't think on day 1 you can have anything more than a good hunch on someone's alignment, so your bloodthirstyness for that lynch seems anti-town to me.

[Untrod Tripod]

I don't see anything wrong with it as an OMGUS vote in that situation, and you jumping on that bandwagon looks to me like scum looking for an early lynch. I don't care that you unvoted, I care that you were the end part of that bandwagon.

I don't see why you "love" your vote. Your original point was that I didn't post much in the first couple pages. I've since posted.

[Untrod Tripod]

Still waiting for an answer to my question from UT.

ABR is at L-1 now, correct? I'm willing to hammer after the claim.

I answered your question in post 111.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible. Vote: untrod tripod

Does that post explain why you think I'm scum? Because I made what you considered a wishy-washy post at the beginning of the game? I've taken a stand since then (because I saw something I thought was scummy) and you're still on my case about...umm...what are you on my case about, exactly? Saying at the beginning of the game that I don't want to make a call on someone's alignment that early is...scummy? Maybe no one else is agreeing with you on this because it's nonsensical and is starting to look like tunneling.

Well I don't think TDC is scum, so I'm not going to lynch him. I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR. You honestly think I should hammer someone I don't think is scum just because of the VT claim? I'm not doing that.

I don't understand this post. I answered your question, what more do you want from me? Why do you think I'm scum?

So what you're saying is: I don't think TDC is scum. I think UT is scum but no one agrees with me. Therefore I am willing to hammer ABR. Does that mean that ABR is your second biggest scum suspect after me? I mean, after all, I made a wishy washy post that you didn't like and he tried to hammer the replacement before he got a chance to post anything. That makes sense, right?

[Untrod Tripod]

People were wrong due to several factors:

1) lack of experience on this site
2) inability to see beyond their emotions
3) no real motivation to win

1. Look at my join date
2. You acted scummy
3. ....wat?

[Untrod Tripod]

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

QFT

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum. On the one hand, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper, but on the other hand Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch. But still,

IGMEOY TDC

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim (since there seems to be no vig we couldn't have found him dead last night if he'd claimed a killing PR that someone else had and we kept him alive, or the cop/doc would have had to come out which would have been a bad plan on day 1). We had some discussion before the hammer about the relative intelligence of requiring a claim and I kind of fall on the side of not wanting a second claim on day 1.

I'll have to think/observe/reread more to decide where my vote needs to go.

[Untrod Tripod]

EBWOP

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim .

should read "I think that from our perspective yesterday, revealing ABR's role might have either required a PR to counterclaim .... or we would have just probably ended up lynching a claimed VT anyway."

[Untrod Tripod]

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

I thought he was being especially stubborn and confrontational. Also him replacing out did nothing to help how his alignment looked. I don't think he looks like obviscum, but thought he was playing somewhat anti-town.

UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

cry moar. I'm not going to be less cautious because you're baiting me. that's just how I roll, dawg

[Untrod Tripod]

Yah, there's a certain timing element to Zodiak's vote, and from this I see Zodiark's game play as suspect.

Vote: Zodiark

I really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark. I didn't find his vote all that suspect and I don't think he's scum.

I would, however, say that there's "a certain timing element" to Taz's vote on ABR. He jumps in and puts a quick vote on ABR and now is calling Zodiark obviscum. If Zodiark gets lynched and flips town, I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist.

Insofar as there really hasn't been all that much said, I don't really have much else to say. Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC because of his slot.

[Untrod Tripod]

@LMP
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&t=14486
that's the only completed game I have since my return.

also, it means I find him slightly scummy. I have a slight lean towards scum for him.

[Untrod Tripod]

ok, I guess I'll first respond to your thoughts on me:

Secondly: Do you guys remember how you lynched ABR without a claim? Yeah. We won't be doing that anymore, got it?

You're not in charge of this game. Also this is kind of a pointless thing to say, which seems to me to be saying "yeah, that lynch and everyone who was a part of it is stuuuuuuupid". We didn't want the claim because we'd already had one (it was day 1, remember) and it would give the scum more information. Also ABR was being angry and combative. You want us to just ignore him unless we get a claim? Right. Let's not lynch anyone without a claim, sound good?

podium <-> Dr Pepper looked really town on town to me, especially after Dr Pepper went so far as to "rage-quit" out. I was shocked that people thought his so-called rage-quitting was scummy. podium's posting throughout the game in general has struck me as townish, so I feel even more confident about this determination.

I guess this is a your mileage may vary point. To many of us, someone getting a lot of crap from everyone about their playstyle and being called scum replacing out seems scummy. I don't think that podium is more town because of Dr. Pepper replacing, scum or not. This is faulty reasoning, imo.

I want my thoughts down and a bit more discussion before having any kind of a lynch. I do think Zodiark has done some scummy stuff, but I've got a pool of about 4 people (him included) who are giving me conflicting reads, and I want to get in the game and get better reads on them before we move on with any kind of a lynch. I'm an in-the-moment kind of player.

I like the first part of this post. I don't like that you call yourself an in-the-moment kind of player, because I feel like you're trying to write yourself a blank check to act like ABR.

Prior to that, I wasn't crazy about [Zodiark's] persistent insisting of hammering Dr P before a replacement could be found or before Dr P and/or his replacement could get a chance to claim. There was nothing scummy about Dr P's rage-quit; it looked like he was just frustrated, and imo, frustration tends to be a town-tell. Trying to pass off that "rage-quitting" as this major major scum-tell just to get that hammer makes me believe that he was possibly becoming impatient and eager to just get a poss-mislynch already.

Or maybe he just thought he was scum. Scum can get frustrated too. Frustration doesn't have an alignment and he was acting scummy before he asked for the replacement. I think you're grasping at straws here.

tl;dr, Dr P. and Blaze are scumbiddies, and I found possible evidence.

Blaze comes across as a town learning the ropes for now, I don't have much suspicion for him yet.

TBH I've actually been thinking this myself. The fact that he joined the site 10-ish days ago doesn't help.

This change in opinion on Blaze is pretty drastic considering only a day had passed since you called him and Dr P scum buddies. I mean, it wasn't like Blaze posted anywhere within that timeframe either. Why did this change occur? When did you begin thinking that Blaze could be town learning the ropes?

Did you even read the quote? He said he reconsidered it. Blaze doesn't have to post somewhere for Zodiark to say "well, ok, maybe I was wrong about that".

There was an obvious disconnect, too, with his own description of his play and how he played here towards the end of D1; he claimed to be this cautious player who doesn't like to jump to conclusions so fast, but he was rather quick to throw the first vote out on ABR when he concluded with stating that he found ABR's play to be "anti-town".

I thought ABR was acting like scum, so I voted for him. You say you have a problem with me fencesitting and then you say I'm throwing out votes indiscriminately. You can't have it both ways, dude.

Not scummy but anti-town. I believe it was podium who pointed out the problem with UT's 6th post too; the question along the bottom had already been answered, so I don't really see the purpose of it there. And considering the fact that it came only after being interrogated/voted by LynchMePls, it gave me the feeling that you were trying to appease him by "appearing active".

I find it incredibly annoying that you're actually going to go with the "saying anti-town instead of scummy is suspicious!" argument here. Anti-town means you are acting like your win condition does not align with town. So if I find that someone is acting like they don't want the town to win, I should just leave them alone? Also yes I ASKED A STUPID QUESTION. You're like, the sixth person to point that out. Way to go. So what you're saying is "LMP called you out on being inactive and not taking a stance, so you posting after that is suspicious". Grasping at straws.

Major conclusions: Now, my issue right now is this: After reading both Untrod Tripod's and Zodiark's play individually and then trying to put their play together in the big picture, I really thought I saw a strong potential for the two of them to be scum with one another. Their interactions are pretty textbook "two-scum in a game" behavior; they barely mention each other, they haven't voted for one another (aside from Zodiark's RVS vote on UT), and they've had similar suspicions on people who I think stand a stronger chance of being town than scum at this point.

There are a lot of ways for scum buddies to act. You're saying "there really isn't much of a connection between them, and I disagree with them, therefore they are scum". Do you not see the missteps in logic there? Scum teams can ignore each other, attack each other, buddy up and create arguments against town (you know, kind of exactly like you and LMP are doing right now) or any combination of the those options. I don't think that, especially at this stage of the game, you can claim that not having voted for each other means we're a scum team. You really just don't have enough information to claim a pattern. Especially one of "you aren't doing anything together".

I'd be fine with this except Untrod's latest post where he states that he doesn't think Zodiark is scum worries the shit out of me - I'd kind of expect an Untrod-scum to go into hyper-bus mode at that point considering the fact that Zodiark is at L-1 with seemingly no way out of it. If they're scum together, he could be going for the "oh shit, I was just wrong about him" route, but it's still something that concerns me.

So what you're saying is that if I'm scum with Zodiark, I'd be bussing him? Well I didn't bus him, so what does that mean? Maybe that you're wrong. Here's what I don't get: you came up with the theory of how Zodiark and I would be interacting as scum, but it fell apart at the end. Wouldn't you think that if I were scum and he were town I would have hammered him? Is it entirely inconceivable to you that maybe I just don't know his alignment because I'm town and I don't think he's the correct lynch for today? He could still be scum, but I'm unconvinced.

And that's another part of the reason I want to extend this Day a bit - I don't think LynchMePls and Untrod Tripod are scum together considering their interactions, and I don't think Zodiark and Tazaro are scum together either for similar reasons. I'm not very much interested in TDC or podium as scum right now. LynchMePls hasn't been the paragon of townieness in my eyes, but I've liked his Untrod Tripod-hate. And Tazaro's been a bit of a null tell for me. So for me, I'd like to try to figure out my two major unknowns, and my two scum reads before we lynch anyone. And I'd also like to see if my "townies" still hold out too. Hence, my in-the-momentness.

Distancing is a common tactic to avoid pairing with other members of your Faction. It is most commonly done by Anti-Town factions such as Mafia or Cults, but can also be used by Masons to avoid being night-killed as a confirmed pro-town player.
It involves putting oneself at odds with one's partner(s), either by disagreement over a third party, or by direct conflict against each other. The effectivness of this technique is often based on timing and the quality of performance from the distance-ees.

I'm not saying Zodiark and Taz are scum together, I just think that you're completely, entirely, 100% wrong in saying that they're not because Taz is trying to lynch Zodiark.

[Untrod Tripod]

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side. You buddy up with a fairly pro-town player (I'd say LMP is fairly pro-town) and ride the goodwill out for as long as possible. Your predecessor(s) hardly confirm you as town, so I feel like this would actually be a good tactic if you're scum to get us to forget ConfidAnon's lurking and replacement.

[Untrod Tripod]

I find it interesting that Taz was willing to unvote before asking Incognito why he wanted the unvote. Looks like buddying up to the new player.

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

@Taz: If you are questioning his motives, why not ask this and get an answer first?

I put cart before the horse at times. I'm not sure I like Incognito's vote for Untrod Tripod.

...because he's starting a new wagon after the Zodiark one.

Vote: Zodiark

sorry for triple post, but I would like to say that I agree that it's interesting that Incognito came in, called a guy with a wagon on him scummy and then promptly tried his darndest to derail the wagon. goodposting, Taz.

[Untrod Tripod]

I'd like to apologize at the beginning of this for it being such a mammoth of a post.

Ok, first I'll respond to the meta thing:
I don't really know if I can answer for how I look in meta. I mean, every game is different and I don't think I'm really the best person to answer how I looked in that game to Taz. Honestly, it's generally my feeling that I'd be a little less careful in general as scum because I know the alignments of the other players in the game, so I'd be more inclined to attack someone in an all-out manner. As town (like in this game), I have a tendency to turtle and not want to make any strong statements on the alignments of others in the game. Especially after I help mislynch someone (see: my perceived wishy-washiness after the ABR lynch [post 166]).

Honestly I think it'd be more helpful if people OTHER than me were to give you an answer on my meta. But I don't know that meta would even be useful in this case because I only have one recent completed game, and I don't think that's really enough information to tell you "how I act" as scum or town.

fine, moving on....
_________________________________________________
The LMP/Incognito-driven case on me:
This point really bugs me

LynchMePls hasn't been the paragon of townieness in my eyes, but I've liked his Untrod Tripod-hate

Why? Because I said way back in post 133 that LMP is tunneling me, and while tunneling isn't

always

bad, I think in this case it is.

What I'm going to do next is repost every single thing LMP has had to say about me

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.
Vote: untrod tripod

Translation: UT is scum because he's wishy-washy and made a post that I thought didn't say anything

Asked and never answered. Please answer this UT.
Still love my vote. I'm sympathetic to an ABR wagon though, for the "hammer".

Translation: I still think UT is scum because he didn't answer a question I asked

My original point wasn't that you weren't posting, its that you were saying a lot of words without actually taking a stance on anything. Interesting to note that you thought my vote on you was because you weren't posting and that you have since changed that though.

This is just kind of nonsensical, imo, and you can read my post 133 for more on what I had to say on the matter

I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR.

Translation: I think UT is scum because he's scum. Also he's wishy washy, and I didn't like his answers.

UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

Translation: UT is wishy-washy, and therefore scum.

Wow, I'm just going to have to get used to hating your posting style I guess. More wishy-washy words like "I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist" and "Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC...". Do you ever commit to anything? And do you have a link to a recent scum game for me?

Translation: Your playstyle sucks.

Oh, and what does it mean when someone "twitches" your scumdar. Is that more than a ping? Lower than a tap? Inbetween a flip and pull?

Translation: Your playstyle sucks.

Thank god, sanity has been brought to this game. I've been barking up this tree for awhile with absolutely 0 help.
Unvote Vote: Untrod Tripod

Translation: Someone is finally validating my tunneling! I will pretend it's made sense all along!

What is there to love there, exactly? In his posts on me, he's pretty much said "you're wishy-washy, therefore you're scummy". You know what, previous to now, I was pretty much ignoring LMP's tunneling. I figured it had a purpose, which was to see if I would crack under being told over and over that my playstyle is bad. You know what? I don't think I'm being "wishy washy", I think I'm just more cautious than LMP likes (if his pressure on me is in fact not just a ploy to get a reaction).

My thoughts are that if you like LMP's "case" on me, you either didn't read it, or you're hoping no one else will. He's pretty much done nothing in terms of scumhunting me other than saying that I'm wishy-washy and therefore scum or insulting my playstyle.
________________________________________________
Alright, now that we're past that... I'd like to address some of the other things Incognito has presented in his case against me

If you thought scum was likely on that wagon, why not try and figure out who that scum is? Why throw a side comment like this and not follow it up?

Tell you what, I'll go through the game and call everyone out on every single thing they've ever said and not followed up on. Oh wait, that would be a total dick move and wouldn't help us catch scum. Yeah, I made a comment that I didn't follow up on. Here's a thought: maybe I didn't think that it was time yet to look on that wagon for scum. Did you consider that maybe I was saying that if we looked at the blaze wagon, the ABR wagon and whatever went on today, we could probably find a correlation and/or telling vote patterns? Yeah, that was a rhetorical question and I'm really trying to say that I think that is a weaksauce point to call me out on.

Christ. This isn't hard, people, which is why I don't get why you and Untrod can't figure this out. As I said, I found you both scummy individually. The typical thing to do when you find people scummy individually is to look and see if the people make sense as buddies together, and imo, you did for the most part because of your lack of interactions. The only thing that gave me pause on that was Untrod's recent thoughts about you - my expectation was that if he was scum with you, he might just bus you at this point rather than defend you considering the fact that you already reached L-1, etc. So at this point, I'm thinking either you're both scum or one of you is scum. Given what I've read, I feel pretty confident that there is scum in at least one of {Untrod, Zodiark}, and I'm trying to figure out which is the more likely.

I think I covered this a little in an earlier post, but since you rebuked Zodiark about this a few posts ago, I think I should revisit. So what you're saying is that you found us scummy individually, so what you did is see if we could be buddies together. Which it seemed like we probably are because we didn't have much to say to each other... Let's go back to the post that Zodiark and I commented on that this is related to

After reading both Untrod Tripod's and Zodiark's play individually and then trying to put their play together in the big picture, I really thought I saw a strong potential for the two of them to be scum with one another. Their interactions are pretty textbook "two-scum in a game" behavior; they barely mention each other, they haven't voted for one another (aside from Zodiark's RVS vote on UT), and they've had similar suspicions on people who I think stand a stronger chance of being town than scum at this point.

I'd be fine with this except Untrod's latest post where he states that he doesn't think Zodiark is scum worries the shit out of me - I'd kind of expect an Untrod-scum to go into hyper-bus mode at that point considering the fact that Zodiark is at L-1 with seemingly no way out of it. If they're scum together, he could be going for the "oh shit, I was just wrong about him" route, but it's still something that concerns me.

Ok, I'll give you that we might have misinterpreted what you said, but your point was after reading us and trying to put us together (and subsequently finding hardly anything to comment on) you figured that we must both be scum. This looks like you're saying that the fact that I didn't have anything to say to Zodiark is a scumtell on me, which really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, in reading your comments about why Zodiark and I are scum, I really didn't find a whole lot, and it seemed like a reasonable leap that you were therefore saying that a big part of of your cause was our [lack of] interaction. I really don't think that makes a whole lot of sense, but then again, I don't think your case on me makes a whole lot of sense, so maybe I'm missing something big. Also I find it weird that you said "yeah, you didn't bus him, which I think is what you would do, but I still think you're scum". There's no connection you can comment on and I didn't scum-bus him...so obviously we're scum....right...

I could respond to that whole post in great dealer than this, but I get the feeling most of you wouldn't read it.

This isn't directly related to my case, but I find this kind of statement really annoying. I'm assuming that everyone else in the game is going to read my whole post, and you should expect they'll read whatever you write too. The implication here is "yeah, I could make a much better case, but it'd be lost on you people, so forget it". You're implying that you have a lot more on me than I think you actually do.

A lot of your other responses and questions can be explained by probability and my thoughts on how I'd expect scum to act in certain situations. Obviously scum can act contrary to my expectations, but I'm just putting out my thoughts with respect to it and explaining why I think that way. Dr P's playstyle and his "my way or the highway" kind of attitude made it seem perfectly reasonable to me for him to request replacement in that kind of situation.

The content of his posting didn't necessarily raise any huge flags for me either, so I'm going with the idea that he genuinely was frustrated

and was likely town as a result

. Could scum get frustrated too? Yes, obviously. Contextually though, I think his replacement request rings more town-sided than scum-sided there.

Yeah, like I said, this is a your mileage may vary situation. I think that asking to replace after acting like a raging dickhead and being called scummy says bad things about your alignment. Let's go to my bolding, you're saying that because what he had to say didn't seem scummy to you (this, I think, is the source of our disagreement on the matter) and he got frustrated, he was town. Let's say hypothetically you thought he looked scummy, would the frustration then ring scum to you? If so, I'd have to say that I am kind of curious about why you are so sure of that slot's alignment. To me, TDC's play has been slightly town to null, and Dr Pepper's play was pretty scummy, so I am reading the frustration and replacement as scumtell.

Also, rather than saying "a lot of your responses can be explained by probability", why don't you actually just answer them?

Even if we ignore the fact that I haven't even buddied up to LMP here (I mean, I agreed with his suspicions of you, but I've also clearly said that he's currently one of my unknowns; buddying up would require me to call him town and everything), I have a tendency to buddy up regardless of my alignment.

Ok, so buddying is your tendency. Fun. Doesn't mean your intentions for doing so are innocent. You don't have to call him town to buddy up to him. Agreeing with his tunneling on me would be a fine way to do that. He's really latched onto me like a pit bull, and I think it would be a reasonable assumption that if you just get on the wagon with him, he'll have a positive reaction to that. That's buddying, imo, to jump on someone else's case when it's been such a huge part of their game (9 or so posts out of 30).

Whether or not it's easy to tunnel is irrelevant; what is relevant is whether or not said tunneling is founded or not

Correct. What I think is relevant is why you think LMP's tunneling on me is founded.

You know what, I'm actually not sure YOUR case on me is all that founded. Let's go back to the post where I think you basically have outlined your argument against me:

Untrod Tripod has bugged me because I've gotten the impression that he isn't really pushing the game along. Post 60 is a major major fence-sitting post; this was pointed out by LynchMePls, and I agree with him - it doesn't do much more than state the obvious, it doesn't take a stance on the possible alignments of the two debaters (Dr P and podium):

So fence-sitting is scummy? Ok, I can see why you and LMP are natural allies. I've said I think Dr Pepper is scummy since then, so restating that point seems...um...pointless.

There was an obvious disconnect, too, with his own description of his play and how he played here towards the end of D1; he claimed to be this cautious player who doesn't like to jump to conclusions so fast, but he was rather quick to throw the first vote out on ABR when he concluded with stating that he found ABR's play to be "anti-town". Not scummy but anti-town.

Again, you really can't have it both ways. Either I'm not cautious about my votes, or I'm wishy washy. Considering that ABR was the one bandwagon I've been a part of, I'd say I'm neither. I waited for a player to do something scummy, and then I called them on it and voted for them. I'm not talking about the "anti-town" thing again.

I believe it was podium who pointed out the problem with UT's 6th post too; the question along the bottom had already been answered, so I don't really see the purpose of it there. And considering the fact that it came only after being interrogated/voted by LynchMePls, it gave me the feeling that you were trying to appease him by "appearing active".

So I asked a pointless question. I forgot the whole "asking one pointless question is a major scumtell" school of scumhunting. It makes such perfect sense, after all.

That's pretty much all you've had to say in terms of "what makes UT scum", and you've been just asking other people to agree with you since then. Upon review of your posts and points about me, I can begrudgingly admit that you have slightly more of a case than LMP, but that's not saying much.

[Untrod Tripod]

Taz, you said that you think that LMP tunneling me is not a good case

LMP's tunneling Untrod Tripod, but I don't agree with that tunneling; it's to easy to tunnel.

Please explain my "tunneling".

I consider tunneling to be inordinately criticizing one person's posts when you are not inordinately criticizing others' posts. The inordinate-ness of the criticism of UT's posts is why your case got no sympathy.

And since Incognito said that he LIKED LMP's case on me as part of his reasoning, I have to think that you now agree with LMP's tunneling. Do you have a response to what I said back in my last post about the tunneling? I'll requote it, since apparently I'm a jerk for putting a lot in one post.

The LMP/Incognito-driven case on me:
This point really bugs me

LynchMePls hasn't been the paragon of townieness in my eyes, but I've liked his Untrod Tripod-hate

Why? Because I said way back in post 133 that LMP is tunneling me, and while tunneling isn't

always

bad, I think in this case it is.

What I'm going to do next is repost every single thing LMP has had to say about me

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.
Vote: untrod tripod

Translation: UT is scum because he's wishy-washy and made a post that I thought didn't say anything

Asked and never answered. Please answer this UT.
Still love my vote. I'm sympathetic to an ABR wagon though, for the "hammer".

Translation: I still think UT is scum because he didn't answer a question I asked

My original point wasn't that you weren't posting, its that you were saying a lot of words without actually taking a stance on anything. Interesting to note that you thought my vote on you was because you weren't posting and that you have since changed that though.

This is just kind of nonsensical, imo, and you can read my post 133 for more on what I had to say on the matter

I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR.

Translation: I think UT is scum because he's scum. Also he's wishy washy, and I didn't like his answers.

UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

Translation: UT is wishy-washy, and therefore scum.

Wow, I'm just going to have to get used to hating your posting style I guess. More wishy-washy words like "I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist" and "Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC...". Do you ever commit to anything? And do you have a link to a recent scum game for me?

Translation: Your playstyle sucks.

Oh, and what does it mean when someone "twitches" your scumdar. Is that more than a ping? Lower than a tap? Inbetween a flip and pull?

Translation: Your playstyle sucks.

Thank god, sanity has been brought to this game. I've been barking up this tree for awhile with absolutely 0 help.
Unvote Vote: Untrod Tripod

Translation: Someone is finally validating my tunneling! I will pretend it's made sense all along!

What is there to love there, exactly? In his posts on me, he's pretty much said "you're wishy-washy, therefore you're scummy". You know what, previous to now, I was pretty much ignoring LMP's tunneling. I figured it had a purpose, which was to see if I would crack under being told over and over that my playstyle is bad. You know what? I don't think I'm being "wishy washy", I think I'm just more cautious than LMP likes (if his pressure on me is in fact not just a ploy to get a reaction).

My thoughts are that if you like LMP's "case" on me, you either didn't read it, or you're hoping no one else will. He's pretty much done nothing in terms of scumhunting me other than saying that I'm wishy-washy and therefore scum or insulting my playstyle.

[Untrod Tripod]

@Taz, what are you trying to do with your votes, exactly?

@TDC
sorry, somehow I missed that being a question. Anyway, I don't think my original defense was that Zodiark was town, I was saying before Incognito replaced in that I thought that Zodiark hammering ABR was not a scumtell. My initial defense for Incognito's case wasn't really a defense of Zodiark, imo, it was more saying that I thought his idea that Zodiark and I were obviously scumbuddies was really faulty. I defended myself more than Zodiark in that post, so I'm not really sure why you're saying my initial reaction was to defend Zodiark. It seemed (as I've said) that one of his scumtells for both of us was that we hadn't said much too/about each other, so I refuted that.

[Untrod Tripod]

I check games from my phone when I'm working and my browser stays logged in sometimes.

nice tunneling, Incog

[Untrod Tripod]

seriously, I don't get the implication here if that weren't the case

checking the thread but not posting makes me scum?
checking the thread often makes me scum?

how are either of those things scumtell?

[Untrod Tripod]

no

vote Zodiark

I think Taz is scummy, but I feel like today's lynch is gonna either be me or Zodiark. So, I'd rather it not be me.

[Untrod Tripod]

loldongs

you'd be saying that no matter what I did

[Untrod Tripod]

what a representation of the whole game in these first couple posts. LMP pretends I'm confirmed scum and no one disputes him, Taz says something idiotic and TDC gets annoyed.

I'm VT.

let's hear podium's claim

[Untrod Tripod]

taz, you fail pretty hard man. why did you let us lynch an innocent person? ...or a better question:

WHY WERE

YOU

VOTING FOR AN INNOCENT PERSON?

because he's lying scum. He claimed an information role and provided us with no information. How likely is a tracker and a watcher in the same game? Isn't 9-player setup either just a cop or a doc+cop as PRs on the town side?

vote Taz

[Untrod Tripod]

I've been in a game that's now over, and as scum in that game, me and my partner's discussion involved watcher AND tracker. Scum are cognizant of these roles, so if you are a more suspicious scum-mate, you're not going to risk being tracked.

[Untrod Tripod]

@podium: THAT's definitely not how it works on THIS site.

It depends, but I think in general you're right.

@UT: Watcher and tracker in the same game is VERY believable, so what you talking about UT?

We have 5 players left and the game isn't over, so obviously we've got 2 mafia. 2 mafia in a 9 player game is already skewed towards town, so I find it unlikely that we'd have two info roles. Since we don't have a vig role, we probably have a GF instead of a roleblocker since the major town PR was a watcher. Having a second town PR, especially an info role doesn't make sense to me since it skews the game even further towards town. Considering that you haven't provided us with any actual information, I'm having a hard time believing your claim.

Edit after post: But I guess since it seems like everyone disagrees with me though, so w/e. I already typed it all out and I'm standing by that point.

Also, I'm with TDC on wanting to hear more about your choices

[Untrod Tripod]

Pretty sure we should lynch UT.

Any doubt holding you back?

you can't be 100% of anyone's alignment as a townie unless you're cop. And even then you can't always be 100%

obviously he doesn't agree with me about you lying about a PR, so he wants to take it more slowly than you do. So we won't lose. Wanting to rush lynches is scumtell.

@TDC I remember reading about win probabilities a long time ago and I thought 5 VT 1 cop 1 GF 1 goon was skewed slightly town. Can't find that table now, so I'll retract that statement unless I can find it.

[Untrod Tripod]

Either (1) UT is scum; or (2) he would have been hammered by now.

or you're scum and your pard'ner (if this game has a two person mafia team) is waiting for someone else to vote for me

[Untrod Tripod]

Pretty sure we should lynch UT.

Any doubt holding you back?

you can't be 100% of anyone's alignment as a townie unless you're cop. And even then you can't always be 100%

You say that, but completely contradict it when you vote Taz for his claim right away (which would've resulted in instant loss if both of you had been town).
You can't tell me that you read his claim and were that sure of him being scum.

...I never said I was 100%. Taz is at L-2, I wanted to apply pressure, especially to get him to say more about his targets (if he is in fact a tracker).

[Untrod Tripod]

Is he dead?

No?

Then I'd say there's a pretty good chance he's NOT town.

[Untrod Tripod]

This is all, of course, assuming there are two scum. We don't know that for sure.

Maybe there's one scum, it's neither me nor Taz, and it's someone who's pushing to lynch either of us hoping to make tomorrow a surprise 3-man LyoL. Just a thought.

[Untrod Tripod]

should have done this in my last post

unvote Taz

[Untrod Tripod]

[quote"TDC"]A normal game must have at least one team of two.[/quote]

Normal Game
(Redirected from Normal game)
This page has official status; unlike most wiki pages, it cannot be edited by normal users. If you believe edits need to be made, please bring them up on the talk page.
A Normal Game must meet the following guidelines:
The setting of a Normal game should be Mafia related. Even flavor text should be minimal and not be based on any book, movie, song, time period, etc.
A Normal game should have at least one Mafia faction, and no more than two.
A Normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.
Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.
In general, Normal games should include plain Townies. Don't overuse roles just to make your game more interesting (it probably won't make it more interesting anyway, just unbalanced).
Certain setups which satisfy all of the above might still be better suited as theme games. Examples include Texas Justice, NYPD Mafia, and Hospital Mafia in which all the innocent roles were the same. The setups of these games fit the guidelines outlined above, but their experimental nature makes them more suited to be run as theme games.
Currently anyone wishing to run a Large Normal or Mini Normal Game must submit the setup to Ether to check that it is indeed Normal. In borderline cases, fully open setups are more likely to be accepted.

Don't see that rule

[Untrod Tripod]

Ok...what exactly do you want me to respond to? Look at this from my perspective:

Why exactly is my hammer scummy? From my perspective, I was gonna die either today or tomorrow. It was a given. LMP has a hard-on for me being scum, Incog grabbed onto that case and wouldn't hear it any other way, and Taz's votes are so all over the place, I think you could count on him to vote for anyone. I was basically at L-1. Would the pro-town thing be to just accept the lynch? Really? I had a decent chance of hitting scum by hammering Zodiark, he was by no means confirmed. Yeah, it was a gambit, and yeah that gambit failed.

Here's the thing though: we do not know the alignment of any player who's still alive for certain. There's a 40% chance, from an outsider's perspective, of any one of us being scum. Yeah, I took a gambit on Taz being scum, but I was pretty sure I was gonna get lynched and there wasn't much I could do about it. I get lynched it was game over anyway, so I figure I may as well try SOMETHING. Also, yeah, I've been keeping pretty quiet, because I have opinions about who should get lynched, but honestly I think that if I state them, everyone else will pretty much run the opposite way with them. LMP and TDC pretty much said at the beginning of the day "HEY GUIZE WE'RE GONNA LYNCH UT!" and Taz and podium have followed suit. I've been pretty sure that my arguing would just get me lynched before you all could talk it over, so I've kept my mouth shut. The vote may have seemed like a crazy gambit, but from my perspective, the best thing I can do is provide more information. The best thing I can do for my case is try to provide some kind of proof that Taz is scum, and I tried to do that with my vote. Besides, if I make any good arguments, they'll be completely discounted as "obvscum arguments" no matter what I say, so why hurt my cause?

I guess the big things to respond to are thus:

LMP's ISOs - Yeah, I don't disagree with you on everything. I don't agree with you on everything either. I think a LOT of your analysis starts on the faulty basis of me being scum, but I really don't think it's worth it to go through and do a PBPA of all of your stuff. Did you want me to respond to all of your cases? I'm good, thanks.

podium has been happy to chug sweatily along behind the bandwagon for the latter half of the game. He did it with Zodiark, he's been doing it with me today and I imagine that if, god willing, we start discussing lynching someone other than me, he'll wait for someone else to point out LMP before actually jumping on that. Your case against me is really weak (it seems to mainly be UT is scum because he's scum and other people have said so) and hints pretty strongly at trying to bandwagon to sweet, scummy victory.

Taz's play is...inexplicable. I find it weird that you assume he's confirmed town because he claimed a PR. He's claimed an information role but provided no actual information. Plus the "information" he provided is completely inexplicable. Why push so hard for the Zodiark lynch if he knew for a fact that Zodiark didn't perpetrate a night action? I really don't think "yeah, well Taz is an IDIOT" is the correct analysis here. Why was he "concerned" about Incognito last night? That doesn't make any sense. As far as I could tell, everyone in the game was "convinced" that I was scum, so why would Incog bear watching? He was attacking me in a way that went beyond bussing, so that doesn't make any sense to me that tracker-Taz would have taken. There is

absolutely no reason

to believe his claim.
On another note, if we're going to go with the meta thing, I find it likely that someone of his playstyle would claim a PR as a scum. This is why I think he's scum and that's why I thought it would be safe to drop a vote on him.

[Untrod Tripod]

As i stated previously, i made the first criticism of zodiarks vote. Even if i hadn't... big whoopin deal... he hammered someone without getting a claim first, he's obviously gonna be at the top of everyones scumlist.

a bandwagon is made of votes. It's one thing to say someone's scum, it's entirely another to put a vote on them. You weren't the first person to vote on the zodiark wagon.

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

I don't know how many different ways I can say this: Taz's role is not confirmed! Unless you have a hidden info role you cannot be sure his claim is true! The vote thing makes it just as likely that Taz is scum as it does me! Your case is weaksauce if it is based on that!

[Untrod Tripod]

I got lynched in post 402, Taz

[Untrod Tripod]

finally.

Good game everyone. Had fun playing with you all.

[Untrod Tripod]

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/JV9Djq9rXmQMU