Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over

[Zhero]

Hi all, excited for another AGM game!

FoS: SocioPath

[Zhero]

FOS: SOCIOPATH

OH MAN THAT GUY ROCKED SO MUCH FACE LAST AGM GAME I CANNOT TRUST ANYTHING THAT GUY SAYS.

SERIOUSLY.

[Zhero]

Starting pointless discussion is a null tell when the thread had been largely empty until that point. Enigma's thoughts aren't necessarily pointless, either. If you list 4 choices and end up with the fourth, this means you know the other three are in the game. You may not know if town or scum hold them, but it's still information, and more information for town is not a bad thing.

I agree with Aurorus's points on Faraday and Percy's points on lurkers.

My choices have been sent in.

[Zhero]

I agree with ... Percy's points on lurkers.

I was calling you scum there, guy - calling you out on spending lots of time in your QT and not much in this thread, coming in only to make a few platitudes based on a skim read before getting back to making seekrit codes and plotting with your Warsaw buddies.......

Yeah, I get that. There's no codes and buddies here but I agree with your logic.

[Zhero]

Awesome.

Vote: Enigma

Outing the sub may not do much for us, honestly. I can't see why scum would actually claim it.

[Zhero]

Well gee, if no one claims sub, even if they are lying through their teeth, THAT MEANS SCUM HAS A SUB.

Ah, I see.

I am not the sub.

[Zhero]

Enigma, do you think Doombunny is scummy for misunderstanding game mechanics?

[Zhero]

It's my interpretation that 1 week into the game, any townie who is serious about reaching their win condition would have taken the time themselves to fully understand the game mechanics.
Failing to do so brings up the argument that scum skim because they are already well informed and don't need the little details to get a understanding of a situation.

In my experience, the more complex the mechanics get, the more likely it becomes that somebody didn't read/didn't understand/didn't care about something somewhere. I've never seen it weighted towards scum, either; if anything, I'd assume it's a slight town-tell, since scum both has more incentive to read up early-game as they plan, and has a couple buddies alongside them to clear up the details.

Ridiculous.

- Claiming someone is town without explanation : a classic scum move
- I don't see how someone can not see the benefits of knowing the scum abilities. I'm even pondering a hunt to determine if scum have air base or another scum-like ability, because that would allow us to pseudo-clear people that don't have these abilities.

Unvote, Vote: Faraday

Scummy response. Feeling pressured?

Your first point is silly, claiming town reads at random is a nulltell. Buddiyng is a scumtell, but Faraday's post doesn't really read as such. Also, I'm pretty sure his reasoning is obvious.

As for your second point, the Air Base, unlike the Sub, isn't really that great for town. There's a good chance nobody town even tried to get it, so we wouldn't learn anything, and mechanics discussion would just further slow the thread down away from actual scumhunting.

[Zhero]

Convenient how you don't acknowledge the posts on the previous page by Faraday on the previous page Zhero at all and as a result you take Elscouta a bit out of context.

Not sure what you mean, no misrep was intended.

Signs of a nuke-happy town making me nervous for DEFCON 1 :P

[Zhero]

(1) WRONG, (2) WRONG. Having a bunch of obv town players helps narrow down scum. Sharing reads in thread is a good idea as it allows voting blocs and narrowing of the suspect pool and other mumbo jumbo. Scum don't need help deciding nightkill. If scum want to take my advice on their nightkill they're probably retarded anyway, so ya know whatever.

To add to this, sharing town reads leaves a paper trail, making it harder to go back on that later to push a mislynch. Scum doesn't have much of a motivation to cut their choices like that.

[Zhero]

Faraday's reasoning? You mean #146-#150? Obvious? What am I missing out in those posts that you are seeing?

I didn't mean his reasoning was clearly stated, just that it was obvious. His explanation in #166 matches up with where I thought he was going with that.

Stop bread crumbing your role.

Agreed.

[Zhero]

Something about the Zhero/Enigma interaction is bothering me. Check out Zhero's ISO - the person he talks to the most, and is voting for, is Enigma, but it doesn't seem like a scumhunting effort; lots of clarification and agreement... Zhero's currently my #2.

Clarifying where he's coming from is scumhunting, and my only agreement with him is on a tangental point. If my being scum is largely based on interactions with Enigma, why am I your #2 behind Elscouta (who you're currently voting)?

The more I read Elscouta the more I think he's just poorly presenting his case.

In case you are waiting for a claim, don't expect anything from me, as I don't see any reason that a claim should influence a lynch in that setup.

There are roles I could see being less lynchable than others in this setup.

[Zhero]

Can we all just twiddle our thumbs and stop hating until we can start voting. Let's be friends while it lasts!

In all seriousness though, I know it's pointless discussion but I really don't know how fruitful scumhunting will be until everyone gets a chance to put their vote where their mouth is.

I don't like this post. Your DEFCON 4 & 5 posts lok pretty artificial when you turn around and admit that you feel they were all pointless. It feels like you were steering conversation away from scumhunting to bog the town down.

The high value investigative abilities serve town alot better, all the townies should choose Espionage (and maybe Eavesdrop)

Eavesdrop: This can easily be worked around. Scum have had 1 week to formulate ways of communicating in their quicktopic which won't reveal anything useful.

The change of opinion on Eavesdrop is also interesting, not just because it feels like you may have been clued in on ways to get around it from your scumbuddies, but also because your defense on that:

That was just a preliminary skim read on the first day. Since then I have actually read through all the rest and given each role a bit of thought. In particular the thought of sending out messages with the intention that they are intercepted which I didn't realize on my first read.

is at odds with your later attack on Doombunny having misunderstood the rules, making your reasoning for attacking him superficial.

You seem adverse to people being labeled as town (lowering you mislynch pool?), and overstate people giving town reads as them being declared 'confirmed town'. Considering the benefits of declaring town reads (as mentioned already in thread), your resistance looks bad.

Usually I like to see more of a fight over two competing bandwagons, but I felt that Elscouta had seriously made a tactical error in his approach to the game (I'll try to get players to claim their powers and attack them if they refuse). I could totally see something like that in a scum QT. Although he was blunt about it, in retrospect, I guess, it was subtle in its own way. I was likely making a mountain out of a molehill, as Elscouta must've honestly thought that his ideas were productive for the town. It turns out we're just on fundamentally different sides of that issue.

Stop making up reasons for why you prematurely hammered with only one week of real discussion.

RedCoyote, your catchup post was excellent. Hammer away.

^Don't like this at all.

This post bugs me too, like garnering town points by mourning a townie's death. You completely ignore his wagon until specifically prodded, and even then you basically just say "no comment, waiting to see how this pans out". During your last post Day 1, Elscouta is at L-1, but you again fail to mention it. Why are you only now concerned about the speed of his wagon?

Vote: Enigma

Vote: Zhero for what I think was some overly careful play yesterday, exemplified beautifully in what I think was some clear fencesitting toward the end of the day. In contrast with Elscouta, who was very much in the limelight, I want to now push at one of the more quiet players.

Yeah, my play wasn't that great Day 1. I disagree with the fencesitting argument though.

The more I read Elscouta the more I think he's just poorly presenting his case.

[...]

There are roles I could see being less lynchable than others in this setup.

The two statements there aren't contradictory, I felt the case against Els was a bit weak and was hoping for a claim to maybe shake things up. I'm not sure how this 'makes me look reasonable' if he had flipped scum.

[Zhero]

Your tactic:
Sure it has it's pros. But then this is a 12 player game. There is a SK on the loose!
Most 12 player games only have 2 factions with limited night kill abilities.
Probability dictates that town is most likely to suffer the most with 2 opposing factions which both have access to night kills after today. And for all we know the sub is most likely in scums hands. That's going to hurt town in upcoming days.

The question:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2500899
Doesn't that post imply I don't think he's scum and why? I always seem to make the mistake of making assumptions.
(I agree with his opinion that confirmed townie status is BS) + (I think calling someone scum for disagreeing with their logic is BS) = ????

Let me give you a hint.
???? = Not scummy. I admit his stubbornness made the situation worse but the reasoning wasn't solid enough for me to suspect he was scum. So no, I wasn't going to vote for him.

The problem with that post is that it mostly comments on the 'confirmed town' question, but doesn't really touch on the actual case against Elscouta. Percy's 205, made before your post in question, makes some good points on Elscouta and fleshes out the case against him beyond disagreeing with his logic. As such, your post feels like its skirting the issue.

Also, who's scum? I look over your ISO and I'm not sure where you stand.

[Zhero]

Andrius, are you deliberately being as confusing as possible?

In ISO 24-25, you act suspicious of Enigma.
In 26, you 'notice' Rule 15.
In 27 you say you're voting Enigma for role-related info.
In 29 you say you were voting for gut/Rule 15, and unvote, even though you 'noticed' Rule 15 the day before.
You offer a claim in 29, and then resist it in 31.
In 33 your motives are now 'gut, and stuff', but you insinuate that you're suspicious still? (after the unvote?)

You're putting a lot of work into saying nothing at all. Please clarify, are you suspicious of Enigma and why?

[Zhero]

And so the stalling continues, I suppose.

I think people should think what the scum motivations are for Andy acting like he is. True, he did out some power roles, but that was unintentional. It would all have been avoided if Enigma wasn't an idiot and just shut fuck up when he saw the breadcrumbs(LIKE EVERYONE SHOULD.) and Spy for being derpy with his logic up there(OH MY GOD, I THINK ANDY IS A COP WITH A GUILTY. I THINK I'LL VOTE FOR HIM INSTEAD OF THE GUY HE'S VOTING FOR).

Seriously, you guys brought this upon yourselves. You may not be familiar with Andy's play style, but the idiotic 'I'll call out this guy's breadcrumbs!' and the subsequent 'COP WITH GUILTY!? VOTE: COP' shenanigans are fucking retarded.

You two should be ashamed of yourselves. Seriously. >.>. I'm just not sure if this stupidity is filled with scum-intent or whatnot.

This is ick. Really ick. You don't see the scum motivations for outing power roles? It's Enigma's fault that Andrius is rolefishing? SpyreX is wrong to suspect someone who's "a power role that has a guilty but no not a cop I'm not telling la la la"?

Painting the people suspicious of you as scummy because they vote the outed cop (they didn't, remember, you're not a cop, and you're not really outed, per se) is incredibly scummy.

Andrius, again, are you suspicious of Enigma, and why?

I know that this slot is in heavy suspicion, so please ask questions etc. I have knowledge of Andy's meta, so I think I can explain his actions for him better.

Don't like this either, Andrius can't explain his own posts?

Zhero #154: is playing a lot like his scum-self in Advance Wars Mafia wherein he's more interested in talking mechanics...
Zhero #246: Seems to be a lot more interested in defending himself, then adding a worthless defense to Els. Also, similar to Advance Wars Mafia etc. etc.

This set off a little ping in my head, so I went and reskimmed that game to see what you meant. My ISO is far from mechanics heavy, with virtually no self-defense (since certain people thought I was obv-town through most of the game). Meta-tells in general are pretty weak, especially with only one game to reference. At least peruse a town-Zhero first. This seriously reads like setting up a later case on someone who people have already expressed some suspicion of.

Vote: Calcifer

Enigma, I'm still curious who you think is scum.

[Zhero]

You people(specifically Enigma) don't like Andy's explanations. I can explain it better for him. If you don't like that, fine.

It's not the explanations so much as the lack thereof.

Haha, no.

In #154, I was talking about what you were doing AT THAT PART of the game, not your ISO as a whole. You were absent from page 2, 3 IIRC. And while some people were looking for scum during those times, you weren't and were just posting along to add some mechanics discussion every now and then.

My point about your #246 post needs to be taken in context. Before #246, Your last post with real content was #154. After that there was a series of 1-2 line posts answering questions, and then #246 was the boiling point. Those posts were more interested in answering questions and some self-clarification but not much else.

Also, how is using meta scummy? Weak, I'd slightly agree. But scummy? That needs explanation. Despite your complaints of "OOhh, we've only been in 1 game together plus meta suxxxxxx", that does not make my attack scummy(unless of course, you can explain why it is).

My point is that you're using meta as an authority where it doesn't belong. My Day 1 play contrasts with my AW play much more than it compares, and it seems weird to me that you'd bring up the meta unless you felt you needed an extra crutch to build your case.

And conveniently I don't know how he managed to do it. These are all my next suspects perfectly summed up. Just needed you in there.

Sociopath
SpyreX
Percy

One more question for Andrius.
Why that list of people in particular?

Then why have you resisted answering his request for your read on them?

Holy Fuck. Apparently, I skimmed over that very specific albeit important post. (Note to self: Pay attention to hydra/replacee's posts). I'll ask Andy. That DOES need some explanation. I'll have a long hard talk with Andy and get right back atcha.

What, the flavor text thing? Yeah, that deserves an answer. See also post 307.

[Zhero]

Your role cannot possibly be the reasoning behind a four-person scumlist on Day 2.
We're all power roles in this game, the only thing making you a more obvious target is you playing the martyr.
VV is right, stop crumbing in response to Andrius's crumbing. If either of you have info you think town needs to know, spill it. If not, remain silent. Playing silly guessing games distracts the town from actual legitimate conversation and bogs the game down.
You've made 19 posts Day 2, and the only actual case you've made is a weak one on me after being prodded to multiple times. You're voting me for rolefishing, seriously? Asking you to take a stance isn't rolefishing. Even if you targetted one of Spy/Soc/Percy, you claim to have suspicions on all of them. It's justifiable for me to be interested in what they are.

[Zhero]

Oh god, seriously?

Confirm Vote: Calcifer so hard

Posts #370 and #374 are practically a confession. My only reservation is that someone's trying to get me to dig into VV, knowing he'd jump on this.

1) Zhero is scum.

Seriously, man?

2) CAPS LOCK PLAYER is scum. Either SpyreX or Sociopath, probably.

Neither SpyreX nor Sociopath are anywhere near dumb enough to compose that message. There's a 10% chance for every post to be made public and

you think they would use my name

?? Getting around using names is like Encryption 101, nobody should be dumb enough to not be able to figure that one out and still be coherent enough to play Mafia to begin with.

3) WIFOM?

What do you even mean here?

I'm legitimately irritated that scum is being this... inelegant in trying to frame me. It speaks of a mentality of someone seriously underestimating their opponents, which, incidentally, is another reason I'd suspect VVcifer.

Doombunny is probably right, but I still want to hear what Zhero has to say about this.

We aren't in a game with enough people dumb enough to form an entire scumteam incapable of encoding their own names. I know I haven't been playing the best of games here, but I'm also not a bad enough player to "take two weeks to figure out how to tell my scumteam my power".

Also! Logical inconsistency:

If I'm reading it right, there's supposed to be at least 18 posts of pre-DEFCON 3 discussion (since "I'm" supposed to use the 18th)
The fakepost also seems to insinuate that there's a method in place for scum to tell each other their roles.
But they didn't come up with a code for their names? Really?

Please don't buy this crap

[Zhero]

I was reaction-fishing.

@AV: I(Vas) move my vote when I want/need to. I do it regardless of my alignment(Well, most of the time.). Votes have two uses: Pressuring/gathering info, and lynching. I'm using it for the gathering info(since we're way away from D/L anyway.). It's a reaction fishing thing.

You're taking that single vote way too seriously. It was a vote intended to find out Enigma's alignment.

So, the moral here is to just ignore everything you do?

I support the claim, for the record. Confirmation that your 'role-realted info' isn't just a poor gambit would be nice, and more importantly it means we can move on from that conversation instead of it stalling interminably.

You are assuming that I got an OMG ENIGMA IS SCUM result based on ONE fucking vote?

No, the following exchange also helps:

That's a nice surprise change in meta. Why weren't your trying to scum hunt/vote yesterday? You conveniently voted in RVS and didn't move your vote. Did your scum buddies tell you to pick up your game over night?
Your ISO is mainly fluff, you really don't attack anyone or pursue any leads and contains alot of game theory talk.
What all of a sudden has made you suspicious of me? And why that list of people in particular?
^Answer my questions and I'll answer yours.

Role related information. *whistles*
If it hasn't been clear yet, I have an active ability, so.
That's all you need to know for now.

You know, the part where when asked for rationale behind your vote, you cite role-related information.

[Zhero]

..huh.

Enigma, why the reluctance to claim?
Why did you target Percy?

Socio, do you think Calcifer is scum-Radar who just apparently outed his own partner?

[Zhero]

Yeah, I don't think there's any way Enigma has the case he says he does.

Unvote. Vote: Enigma

I like the case on Doombunny so far, and Hindu/RC reads town vs. town to me.

[Zhero]

Percy, I received a result which I believe is quite likely to be incriminating. Do you have an idea why that might be?

I don't understand. Why didn't you autovote him at the start of D2 then?

To further this line of thought, why, when pressed for your top suspicions, was Percy only a footnote?

Also @Zhero- Why don't you see Enigma as being legit?

right now me thinks its Percy/Zhero/Spyre scumteam and Socio SK

Vague wording, inconsistent stances, mostly. Why am I scum?

What do you think of Percy's 464 then?

What should I think of it? I don't know what Percy's thinking, and I don't know why he'd be fucking speechless.

Even I don't think that Calci would be THAT demented.

Do you think both Enigma and Percy are town then?

Zhero: Why would Calci claiming to have tracked Enigma be "outing" his partner?

Pushing Enigma into the limelight for little benefit. I'm having trouble seeing a Calcifer/Enigma team.

[Zhero]

Ooh, interesting stuff. Messages seem pretty fake to me, like scum said "let's just post bullshit, it'll be hilarious". This is somewhat backed up by Percy not getting the dropped message: it was probably only posted once, not spammed, and probably just one of many different misleading posts.

I see a few people talking about the dropped message being spammed, so just to specify, I assume scum doesn't know when the Eavesdropper is successful. If they spammed a message enough to have a 50% chance of it dropping in-thread, the Eavesdropper would have over a 90% chance of seeing it at least once. Those are bad odds for scum, and it makes much more sense to post different messages each time.

The Caesar codes are just cryptograms, you could even crack them without a program. It makes them horrible for communication since it's only a few minutes work to break one, but they'd have to do that few minutes for every single post.

The weird part is the Vigenere stuff. Why would they bother posting in a code they're not certain the Eavesdropper could crack?

But yeah, I don't think any meaningful conclusions can be made here.

If Percy is town:

1.) Knowing (while with a pretty freakin giant grain of salt) that these are actually whats going on in scumland gives a lot of information that is way awesome.

My conundrum is I like everything about Percy's play. However, I dislike everything about this claim. The idiot savant messages, the threefer received minutes apart all of it. It just smells wrong.

So, I'm down with this honestly expecting a town flip but knowing it needs to happen.

I don't like this plan. Today's lynch is an important one. Worst case scenario, we lynch town today, two towns get bomber'd overnight, a town gets sub'd the next morning, and we're at 3:3:1, with town no longer in control of the lynch. Crosskills are possible but I'd rather not depend on them.

Assuming that scum is just posting noise, we learn virtually nothing from a town-Percy flip, and potentially lower town's chances even more by taking the resulting WIFOM seriously.

I assume that the times don't mean that all three messages were minutes apart. I assume that AGM got online, ran the percentages, and posted each message off as they dropped.

Since the third message references hammering Els but came after the lynch, this is almost certainly true.

Wait wait wait. Town gets a non encoded message that frames Zhero and that's fine but when one frames me that makes me scum? Teh whats? Even when you got an encoded message that more or less confirms they were dropping faked messages? I'm agreeing with Socio here, scum probably created a 'lolframe' for every person or at least the more scummy ones.

...

Anyway, the messages seem to be in Enigma style and I'm beginning to look at him more closely. Vote: Enigma

Heh, so drops sounding like you are null but drops sounding like Enigma are voteworthy?

Unvote. Vote: Doombunny9

I'm up for a Doombunny lynch, I think it's a good case even without the drops.

[Zhero]

(2) Why fake the Elscouta message as coming AFTER the hammer? If he was faking, he'd have said it came beforehand for piling on more suspicion. Unless he's just poured a nice glass of red and placed it on the table.

It's weird that 3 is written pre-hammer and 4 during the night, but there may have just been a delay in receiving the information.

[Zhero]

For someone who is so smart you just failed miserably.
Your vigenere decoder, it decodes keeping the case constant. Your translations are from upper case to lower case, their translation remains at uppercase.
It also doesn't split text up into multiple lines.
Let me guess ... you decided to write down the entire mumble jumble then retype it into the post using lower case letters. LOLOLOL.

That.. is actually pretty weird. Why would you convert the text but not add the spaces back in?

Now timestamps got nuked so I can't compare when this was posted to the leaked messages, if someone want's to do that for me I it would be so appreciated.

Posts 3-5 were bunched together directly after the lynch, so all posts happen before the drop.

Which is actually kinda odd, now that I think about it. Percy didn't get any drops all of Day 2?

But anyway, it seems to fit on that end. By the time the drop hit, Percy had seen message 5, so his 'message is almost certainly intended to be seen by the town' post matches up.

And they better hit nukers because if not they get lit up.

This is a power-heavy setup and definitely winnable at 3:3:1.

Being at 3:3:1 and having nukes flying doesn't fill me with confidence. Town nukes are hardly guaranteed to hit antitown targets. I'd rather have as much of a buffer as possible for when DEFCON 1 hits.

This is a power-heavy setup and definitely losable at 4:2:1.

[Zhero]

That would be L-1, by the way.

[Zhero]

Enigma, who did you target night 2?

SpyreX, why did you claim

before

the sub fired?

It doesn't add up. It'd require an idiot savant scum group for that to have went the way it did.

I mean, his "scum" were Els (no), Doom (sk) and RC.

This is after it directly implicated YOU in a cypher as well as droppin names like they aint no thing.

I honestly don't see what you're getting at. How does scum making that crap up make less sense than Percy making that crap up?

I'd rather handle the unknown parts of the massclaim with a popcorn or something, but I'm up for it as well.

[Zhero]

Popcorn to Zhero now. Your turn.

Fair enough.

Zhero, Aircraft Carrier, targetted nobody night 1 and prevented SpyreX from nuking night 2.

The idea being that no nukes is good nukes.

PRO TIP I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT IN ALL OF YOU AND THE SUB COULD BE NEUTRALIZED

You're aiming to end the day before the sub can launch? Sounds hilarious. How do we know you're not the sub?

Vote: RedCoyote

[Zhero]

Enigma I'm going to strangle you.

Why do you think I was all over Andrius claiming a scum result on you?

Because his logic was flaky as hell?

Your actions there yesterday make sense regardless of ability.

Enigma's scenario is my concern as well. And RedCoyote is here too, so that's cool.

Unvote

[Zhero]

Technically, it could also be the mod who isn't here. Hard to have a confirmation post without him.

Or the sub is screwing with us?

[Zhero]

I already claimed.

Percy's claim is basically un-CC'd. If anyone was going to I rally hope they would have by now.

If anyone tried for Eaves on their first or second option and failed, they should speak up, fill in some blanks. Otherwise, I'm highly tempted to assume Percy is the Eavesdropper, unless you think he fakeclaimed just guessing that nobody took the role.

[Zhero]

I forget my choices, it was Aircraft Carrier, and then I think Espionage, Battleship, Sub.

[Zhero]

That said though, with the lack of a counter-claim, do you think Percy lied that much about his role, SpyreX?

[Zhero]

Potentially screws up his homey's fakeclaim though, which is weird considering missile silo is such an obvious sub fakeclaim that I don't know why they'd switch.

Sub claiming eavesdropper means he can never publicly fire his nuke without giving himself away.

[Zhero]

The entire point of the Sub is that they don't have to announce it.

Only the first time though. Every successive nuke works like normal.

but I just don't think Spyrex's investigation is as reliable.

Um, what do you mean you don't 'think' it's reliable? It's your alignment he's talking about!

[Zhero]

Well that was poorly handled. Enigma, claim your night 2 result if you can before we hit the night phase.

Percy, what the hell?

[Zhero]

@Zhero

: Was Aircraft Carrier your first choice? Why did you choose it over other abilities?

Yes, it was. I felt it was a potentially useful ability for scum and it might be nice to deny them that, and I also felt that the anti-nuke aspect of it was valuable to town. Scum nukes always hit town but town nukes don't always hit scum, and scum have more incentive to grab nuclear capabilities (since the info roles are devalued for them), so nuclear capability is statistically a threat to town. I hoped to help minimize the danger.

I missed the sub and the terrorist went down early, but it's the thought that counts.

Right now, I'd like to hear more from Faraday and SocioPath. I might be wrong with the Eavesdrop WIFOM, but I'm giving Hinduragi a few extra townpoints because of it. Still, the whole nuking me business is puzzling.

Agreed on all points here, Faraday and SocioPath have disturbingly fluffy ISOs.

[Zhero]

OK Zhero, next question: Who did you target last night?

I think that's better left unsaid for now.

[Zhero]

I'd rather not name my target right now because I'm curious who they choose to nuke, and if they know it won't work the end result changes.

Out of curiosity, why is the target important? If you're testing the silos you'll confirm my claim in the process anyway, and I'm not sure where the hypothetical scum motive would be here.

Faraday, why Fail Safe?

[Zhero]

Out of curiosity, why is the target important? If you're testing the silos you'll confirm my claim in the process anyway, and I'm not sure where the hypothetical scum motive would be here.

If you haven't targetted anyone, or in fact took something else (such as another silo), then you are lying. At this point in time, I have no concrete reason to believe you're telling the truth.

Ah, makes sense. My target was SocioPath.

Do you want the silo claims to be tested?

Yes, preferably Socio first, though his target obviously doesn't matter. Then I'd prefer Hindu to nuke Socio, personally.

Not seeing Hinduragi as scum with Red.

Agreed.

Also agreed. Socio pressing a case on Hind is pretty weak at this stage of the game.

Hey Hinduragi, would you be willing to nuke as a pseudolynch? We're in MyLo right now, and with a nuke we can make it LyLo and lynch someone after the nuke flip.

This is the best plan.

I would nuke either Zhero or Sociopath at this point. I think Sociopath's case is weak and his stance on nukes anti-town at best, and I'm thinking Zhero by PoE and claim shenanigans.

I have to admit I don't know what PoE is. Process of elimination?

I'm with you on Socio though, and I think that with his low level of activity in the game, it'd be better to get a flip from him and clear up an otherwise unreadable variable.

[Zhero]

If Sociopath can't nuke, then I'll just say in advance that this doesn't confirm Zhero's claim. If Zhero is scum with Sociopath, then Socio might not even have a silo.

I asked the mod earlier, and there is an in-game confirmation of the block after the nuke launches. Also, Socio can't fake having a silo thanks to Rule 14.

PoE is process of elimination. At the moment I'm thinking that Calcifer is town, Hindu is probtown, and Faraday is just a little more town than you.

Ah, understood.

. Red calling Zhero his number two scumread, developed into an attack on Zhero - but then followed by rapid pullback and a townread from then on,

Scum targeting a lurker and then pulling back once they started defending themselves. His later play is some heavy buddying that I didn't pick up on at the time.

. Zhero's unvote of RedCoyote at Enigma's suggestion that SpyreX's guilty was a ploy.

I was concerned about quicklynching before allowing the chance for a counterclaim. I also thought that at the speed it was going, the quicklynch was unlikely to stop the sub, and therefore it was better to allow more discussion.


Faraday's play lately has been making me antsy. He makes sure to claim until he's the last claim, and conveniently after the fighter's dead. I'm not sure I trust the fail safe claim. He apparently wanted sub first, but still put fail safe prioritized over a missile silo, so he wanted the sub specifically for its stealth shot, a largely anti-town feature. He then chooses to not counter-claim Red. It just doesn't seem to add up for me.

This:

It's 2 from [Zhero/Percy/Sociopath] to me.

is a bit weak. He's commented over and over that I'm 'prob-scum', but suddenly I'm equally likely alongside someone he's never really commented on at all and someone he had a good town read on a couple days ago. Faraday, what changed your mind on Percy?

[Zhero]

Oh god, stop playing dense. Keeping scum away from sub was a huge priority and everyone should have had it as their number 1. But yeah, you can't see that, I just chose it cos i wanted a stealth shot lolsorandum.

Did you think so at the time? Everyone having sub as their number 1, by your logic, would mean that we'd entirely forsake the cop, the doc, etc.

Already explained why Misile Silo wasn't chosen, which you either ignored or misread (possibly latter due to the following)

What, because it wasn't a passive ability? You couldn't have thought that you couldn't get the silo if you tried for a passive ability, it was the default choice. What did you think would happen if you didn't get your choices?

Yeah I definitely did back red coyote up after he claimed my role and never tried to get him lynched asap (lol). I'd no idea why he claimed failsafe, wasn't prepared to ask so decided let's kill him and see what his game is.

Still, why avoid the massclaim?

A WILD WHAT THE FUCK APPEARS.
I've already indicated I'd prefer you nuked over Socio, in fact you're my first choice. Where is ya getting that you're equally likely from?
Percy's POE scum, I don't see hindu and calcifier as scum at all, so there's a greater chance it's Percy.

Then why is it "It's 2 from [Zhero/Percy/Sociopath] to me." and not "Zhero's scum, Percy or Sociopath along with him."? Or if Percy is just PoE, why not just "Zhero and Sociopath are scum."?

Meaning we need to hurry it up.

Agreed.

[Zhero]

Calcifer, where'd you go??

OK. How do you feel about Hinduragi nuking Sociopath?

I like it, the case against him is good.

HERE I AM, TESTING SOME CLAIMS.
ABOUT THAT TIME, EH CHAP?
RIGHTO.


NUKE: ZERO

Sweet. Thoughts on Hind's target?

[Zhero]

Oh god, Socio DYING? In an ALM-GM GAME? Yaayy!! THIS IS WAAYY OVER DUE. FOR GREEN EARTH.

in other news: Faraday needs to die right after Socio. Glad to see Zhero is one of the cool guys.

This is somewhat unnerving, you seem very certain of people's alignments.

I'm still leaning as zhero to be more likely scumbuddy than Percy. the blocking doesn't prove a lot, yeah they could have got a nuke off but who could socio of nuked that would have made that much difference? calcifier? unlikely, he'd be pretty obv scum, percy? then it's pretty obv zhero/socio for the lynch.

I think Zhero/Socio or the scum, hell maybe that earlier message was actually real. (want to read red's reaction to it again) and he blocked socio to set himself up for an easyish ride to endgame.

That's a bit of a stretch. Why would I bus Socio and not vice versa?

I STAND BY MY STATEMENT THAT THERE WERE NOT PHYSICALLY ENOUGH NUKES TO MAINTAIN THE HECTIC FLAVOR OF THE THEME.

I think part of the problem there was losing the Terrorist Day 2 and the Sub Day 3. Doombunny falling without getting any kills off dramatically changed the face of the game.

[Zhero]

Why is it unnerving? VV's posted shit like 'GETTING A FAILSAFE IS A SCUMTELL' doesn't stuff like that unnerve you? make you feel all creepy?
The being certain of alignment part is weak too.

Why is Failsafe pro-town?

My read on Faraday? Well, tbh, since D1, I had a town read on him. And actually, he's still making sense, in a way. Zhero was easily the next lynch after Socio so, to clear himself, why not block his buddy? When he didn't announce his target, I thought he had blocked me. It would make sense. If he didn't want Percy to be nuked, then that would be an obvious night choice. Why block Socio?

I had a townier read on you than him, and thought you might reconsider targets after Red's flip. A Percy nuke wouldn't be the worst anyway, he's 3rd in my books.

[Zhero]

I agree that this is the best choice for a lynch, I'd like Hinduragi to chime in first though.

[Zhero]

Calcifer's presumably okay with the lynch, he's voting for Faraday and has posted since the flip. You seem less certain and mentioned making the time after the flip count, so I thought it'd be silly to fly through the hammer.

I feel the same way about Faraday's earlier play, though his later play not as much.

[Zhero]

Faraday sounds genuine.

This is my problem too. I'm worried that something's being overlooked with all this PoE going around. I'll try to get a reread in today as well, I guess.

Bleh Percy makes more sense logically I guess, but It'd not surprise me for socio to rage @ zhero in the quicktopic either.

Is the case on Percy anything more than PoE?

Socio's a good player, while I can easily see him raging in the QT like that I can't see him calling me out by name.

[Zhero]

This is making me think twice about Zhero. See, I've been trying to ignore my Eavesdrop results for a while, because they are a big sack of WIFOM. Zhero bringing this up now seems a little odd. Add to that the fact that I've had dropped messages that suggest that Faraday is town, and it's not a consistent picture.

Huh? That was in response to Faraday bringing it up, and also about the dropped message, not about your Eavesdrop.

And his read on me is even stranger:

A Percy nuke wouldn't be the worst anyway, he's 3rd in my books.

Is the case on Percy anything more than PoE?

These just don't fit together nicely.

Yes, you are third, past my town-reads on Calcifer/Hinduragi. The reason I asked Faraday that is because he continuously puts the two of us as almost-equal lynch choices, despite him having a town read on you and a vote on me through most of the game.

Zhero, I'm willing to hammer but I want to hear what you have to say about this game before I do. The deadline is Monday and I am not sure whether or not this thing I'll be at is ending before 11pm, so I'm going to hammer before today is up.

Fair enough, wish I'd played a better game. Good luck in Day 5!

[Zhero]

Still town, btw.

[Zhero]

If I'm right, then I'm sorry, Zhero. I got to my re-read too late to save you.

No worries, I really had trouble getting my head in this game. I like your Calcifer case so far, wish we'd gotten to it sooner. Still not as sold on Faraday as you are though.

I really am town, by the way.

[Zhero]

Agh, grats scum, you played a good game, especially Hind.

That was a depressing LyLo.

My overall opinion of the game MECHANICS though, when compared to the source material, I already stated earlier: NEEDEDS MOAR NOOKS.
With fewer available power roles and/or more power roles that dealt with dishing out NUKES in some way (e.g. SUB/FAILSAFE) I think the game would have felt more chaotic and more towards echoing the source material, which I feel would have been a better and completely different experience.

Part of that was some weird choices on town's behalf, there were some pretty iffy power roles that ended up getting chosen. Doombunny going down before he had a chance to nightkill or nuke made the game a lot tamer as well.

Definitely enjoyed the game, it had a fun setup, amazing flavor, and a good playerlist, glad to be a part of it!