The I don't play anymore thread

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Vi
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Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:17 pm

tealdeer The idiocy isn't going to stop because that's what baseline Mafia just tends to be.
Besides, it's far more effective to learn for oneself how to play Mafia than to try to "teach" them anything.
never assume you will have the last word

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Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:45 am

Also, anytime the site DOES "level up" in finding scum, scum also level up. It's always going to be an arms race, and I flat don't believe that the site is "dumb" right now. Are there quirky players? Absolutely. Are there BAD players? Definitely...and always have been. "Stimpy" ring a bell for anybody??

I do think we've had the perennial "all the quirky players have joined all the games they can over the summer" problem, but that's cyclical.
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Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:37 am

"Murder she wrote" :P

What I think JDodge, Vi and some others have been talking about is "Murder She Wrote". Everyone wants to be a detective and are certain their pet theories of what is happening in any given game is right. It's hard to blast people out of their notions when they think they are right. I know I am that way and I've come up with some whoppers over time.

Instinctive (Gut) players can make intuitive leaps that can be amazing at times and also right. But I'd go so far as to say that 'Gut' players are wrong most of the time unless they use other methods to either validate or invalidate their guts reads. Or their reasoning skills are good enough that the 'gut' read is showing them something that they just haven't found the evidence to back up yet. This is pretty much how I'd classify more than half the players I play with, scum-hunting without a net.

Then there are the numbers crunchers (I fall into that category somewhat). People who try and use past set ups (mini-normal forum is a good example) to predict what is happening in their particular game based on what claims are known at the time. Minimal scum-hunting at this point. Player reads take a back seat to guessing the setup. Only scum hunting done at that point is to determine which players are acting the least scummy if they have (near)identical claims or make a claim that would unbalance the perceived set-up.

Logical players. Rely too much, in my opinion, on traditional tells. One type of player where an "Appeal to Authority" might actually work. Scum hunting consists of finding logical cracks in players play and is a pretty good way of finding them. I've found that the more a player adheres religiously to that style, the harder it is to get them off their reads. Even if the person they are focusing on is obvtown who is using crap logic out of ignorance rather than out of any nefarious design.

And there are many more.

Point to this? I agree with Flay. For an Internet Forum, Mafia Scum is pretty 'smart' as far as the people who come here goes. I've only run into a single forum on a site that compares to the level of education and smartness that I have seen here. (I've visited a lot of them over the years).

The problem you run into with chuckleheads, bad players, ect, ect, is way lower on this site than I've seen on others. Part of the 'dumbing down' I've seen is all on my side. In a game it easy to become dismissive of a person who seems to be working at cross-purposes to you when you both are town and you both know there is almost 100% chance you are town. Some of the disinterest over time could be logged off to a smattering of bad players and VIs but maybe some of that has to do with burn-out, real life and a run of games that just frustrate the hell out of you because you are playing with people who use play styles so different, it's hard to enjoy a game with them in it even if you know you are on the same side but neither is going to give an inch in 'the way they play the game'. Especially if they (or you[and when I say you, I mean me :)]) are not really willing to work with the theories and reads the others have because they, for whatever reason, have to right. It's frustrating as hell.
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Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:06 pm

Mr. Flay wrote:Also, anytime the site DOES "level up" in finding scum, scum also level up.
Prehaps that's why I thought of myself as a really bad player when I first joined the site.

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Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:21 pm

I'm just constantly challenging myself to change my playstyle in every game I'm in, as town and scum. I wanna find something that works for BOTH and yet I can easily blend them together. The first time I played mafia I was lurker, and yet I was fairly decent at scumhunting (iirc). When I tried getting more involved I somehow took a dip in my scumhunting ability. It's hard to reinvent myself all the time to help me be better, which is why I think I like modding a whole lot better
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Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:39 pm

Vi wrote:
Rounding out the pizza pie is a corollary to the first general rule - common wisdom and popular ideas about finding scum usually don't work; in fact they tend to be counterproductive for the team as a whole.

Adding the delicious pepperonis on top of this thin crust of your doom


Fawful much?
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Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:25 pm

Overusing clichés much?

That's one thing that irks me. I hate this damned stupid cliché that is going around that makes me want to scream at you lot through the internet.
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Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:32 pm

yabbaguy wrote:Overusing clichés much?

That's one thing that irks me. I hate this damned stupid cliché that is going around that makes me want to scream at you lot through the internet.
It would be really awesome if anyone knew what you were talking about, because it looks like you're mindlessly lashing out at me right now.
never assume you will have the last word

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Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Vi wrote:
yabbaguy wrote:Overusing clichés much?

That's one thing that irks me. I hate this damned stupid cliché that is going around that makes me want to scream at you lot through the internet.
It would be really awesome if anyone knew what you were talking about, because it looks like you're mindlessly lashing out at me right now.


Is this a two person party or can anyone join? *mindlessly lashes VI*

Actually i hate you a lot less with the new avatar so carry on ;)



My career was over before it began. [/wittyism]

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Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:02 pm

omg ur misrepping me!!!!

No, I was talking about jimfinn being the millionth-in-line using the "____ much saying" that quite a few are using to make a point.
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Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:28 pm

Kataphraktoi wrote:VI
Daykill: Kataphraktoi
never assume you will have the last word

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Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:11 pm

Kata, don't confuse VI with Vi.

VI = Village Idiot. NOT Vi.
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Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:01 am

yabbaguy wrote:
JDodge wrote:I tried a comeback over the past couple of days. Can't take the sheer amount of idiocy present in the site meta at the moment.


Am I an idiot? :(

Besides- if people are being dumb, it's your job (partially) to get back in the games and show them "no you dunces, you've gotta do it [this way]". Even if you get lynched for being a contrarian and a loudmouth, if your side goes on to lose, it's point proven. That's how you do it.


As much as I thank you for the lecture, I see no reason whatsoever to torture myself by reading through pages upon pages of crap in order to see my side lose because they refused to pull their heads out of their asses. That is not a satisfying conclusion to a game, that is a great way to waste time on pointlessly frustrating pursuits.

UK wrote:Part of the idiocy I've noticed is people refuse to change their styles even when they're proven to suck.

That's probably why JDodge is throwing up his hands at this point.


I could rant about how there is no such thing as a playstyle that sucks ad nauseum, but I'll skip to the actual point and say that the issue is more a general lack of common sense.

Vi wrote:For what it's worth, there ARE "How to be a good Townie" and "How to find scum and get them lynched" articles on the wiki. People may or may not read them, and may or may not forego what's said in them because they believe they have a better way to go about things.


useless indoctrination

Oso is also completely and utterly wrong particularly:

Oso wrote:Scum hunting consists of finding logical cracks in players play and is a pretty good way of finding them.


because mafia is a game of competing motivations and personalities, not chess
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Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:23 am

JDodge wrote:
UK wrote:Part of the idiocy I've noticed is people refuse to change their styles even when they're proven to suck.

That's probably why JDodge is throwing up his hands at this point.
I could rant about how there is no such thing as a playstyle that sucks ad nauseum, but I'll skip to the actual point and say that the issue is more a general lack of common sense.
What about playstyles that either can't work or are not utilized effectively enough by the players themselves to work (due to a lack of common sense)?

Vi wrote:For what it's worth, there ARE "How to be a good Townie" and "How to find scum and get them lynched" articles on the wiki. People may or may not read them, and may or may not forego what's said in them because they believe they have a better way to go about things.
useless indoctrination
I think it would be practical to know what everyone's expectations are before someone starts trying to get away with breaking them. At the very least learn how not to get lynched and how to get someone else lynched.

I see what you're saying and I agree with most of what you're getting at, etc.
never assume you will have the last word

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Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:11 pm

Vi wrote:What about playstyles that either can't work or are not utilized effectively enough by the players themselves to work (due to a lack of common sense)?


That's more what I meant when I said your style sucks.
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Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:38 pm

Guys, Gurgi lied.
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Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:47 pm

Vi wrote:
JDodge wrote:
UK wrote:Part of the idiocy I've noticed is people refuse to change their styles even when they're proven to suck.

That's probably why JDodge is throwing up his hands at this point.
I could rant about how there is no such thing as a playstyle that sucks ad nauseum, but I'll skip to the actual point and say that the issue is more a general lack of common sense.
What about playstyles that either can't work or are not utilized effectively enough by the players themselves to work (due to a lack of common sense)?


The problem still lies with the lack of common sense, so I really fail to see your point.

Vi wrote:
Vi wrote:For what it's worth, there ARE "How to be a good Townie" and "How to find scum and get them lynched" articles on the wiki. People may or may not read them, and may or may not forego what's said in them because they believe they have a better way to go about things.
useless indoctrination
I think it would be practical to know what everyone's expectations are before someone starts trying to get away with breaking them. At the very least learn how not to get lynched and how to get someone else lynched.

I see what you're saying and I agree with most of what you're getting at, etc.


The idea that we should have expectations beyond people have a general level of functioning sense going into a game is a bit daft and naive, really. I take issue with the idea that the townie's goal is to not get lynched (the townie's survival is meaningless if you can lynch a scum because of their loss. Survivalism =/= effective town play, because it makes you unwilling to make the necessary waves to push through lynches on your main suspects), or that their goal is to get someone else lynched (vanilla townie goal should be to draw the scum's NK, cop goal should be to survive long enough to reveal effectively, doc should be surviving, etc.). I disagree that either are skills that need to be learned or can be learned from a guide, but that's a discussion for another time (and one of the theory essay-thingies that I have currently stuck in writing hell).
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Vi
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Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:01 pm

At the very least learn how not to get lynched and how to get someone else lynched.
Notice that this does not read
At the very least learn not to get lynched and to get someone else lynched.
nor does it read
At the very least learn when not to get lynched and when to get someone else lynched.

The more polite words we use for people who are unable to avoid getting lynched in ordinary situations and/or cannot voluntarily endanger their suspects are usually based on the American English root "suck".
never assume you will have the last word

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Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:16 pm

JD wrote:Survivalism =/= effective town play


you do listen to me sometimes!
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Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:26 pm

CSL wrote:After the games I'm in are over, I'm only going to mod.

This is true now.
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Kmd4390
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Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:34 pm

I'm debating. Two games left. Do I stay or do I go?
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Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:48 pm

I have currently stopped playing games, and once I run Return to Liten I'm finished modding for awhile as well. I just don't have time or energy anymore to spare for this site.
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Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:59 pm

Vi wrote:
Kataphraktoi wrote:VI
Daykill: Kataphraktoi

Why the hell did I watch that? Here I am innocently lurking an MD thread looking for new ways to catch scum and then I go 'Oh my! Vi posted a link! I should click it!' and then boom I get blasted in the faise with some weird screamo-rap shit which made my face go static for a full four minutes.

I hate you Vi. I want my four minutes back. D=<.
Call me Vas, ;D

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Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:13 am

You clearly have no experience with Vi's daykills, VV... I do, as I've actively gone for them in the past. :wink:
don't you feel silly now?

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Post Post #74  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:30 am

VasudeVa wrote:
Vi wrote:
Kataphraktoi wrote:VI
Daykill: Kataphraktoi

Why the hell did I watch that? Here I am innocently lurking an MD thread looking for new ways to catch scum and then I go 'Oh my! Vi posted a link! I should click it!' and then boom I get blasted in the faise with some weird screamo-rap shit which made my face go static for a full four minutes.

I hate you Vi. I want my four minutes back. D=<.
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