Open 250 - Pie E7 - Game Over! Scum Win
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sweet god, I did not see that coming at all...well, now that I am cleared, we are going to actually scum hunt...
I cant see VPscum, not counter claiming doc....it was pretty much a slam dunk that I was going to be lynched and a doc claim from him would have sealed the deal...unless he just wanted to extend this out and demostrate his scum skills....
going to reread (all 5 pages.)NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE- VP Baltar
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lol, I hope you don't think I'm that arrogant.
My biggest thing about Sottyrulez and nopoint is their general level of hesitance. I know we haven't had much discussion this game, but they don't seem to have said much at all. nopoint in particular.YOUR AD HERE
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if you are that arrogant, you are ballsy
well the lack of discussion is my fault..I know...I really get that. and I am sorry....but again, i really thought I was scum hunting and wanted to gauge reaction to my "scummy hammer" to see who would attack me pre flip. the fact that nopoint thought there was a GF in the game, makes me think he is not the lynch today.NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE- curiouskarmadog
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I have been busy with life. Latching on to arguments like this to propel your mislynch aren't you?VP Baltar wrote:lol, I hope you don't think I'm that arrogant.
My biggest thing about Sottyrulez and nopoint is their general level of hesitance. I know we haven't had much discussion this game, but they don't seem to have said much at all. nopoint in particular.
I can see it as going either way. Either bet on your scummy cred or reap the towny cred for himself.curiouskarmadog wrote:I cant see VPscum, not counter claiming doc....it was pretty much a slam dunk that I was going to be lynched and a doc claim from him would have sealed the deal...unless he just wanted to extend this out and demostrate his scum skills....
going to reread (all 5 pages.)
My read on Vi is pretty town so that leaves VP and Sotty.Justice will prevail
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meh. I don't really find that all that persuasive, but I see where you're coming from.ckd wrote: the fact that nopoint thought there was a GF in the game, makes me think he is not the lynch today.
You and everybody else. Not really an excuse to post no content whatsoever. Also, if I was scum trying to propel a mislynch, I would have just counter claimed ckd. It would have taken approximately -0 effort to get a mislynch on him had he been counter claimed.no point wrote:I have been busy with life. Latching on to arguments like this to propel your mislynch aren't you?
what is your "pretty town" read of Vi based on?no point wrote:My read on Vi is pretty town so that leaves VP and Sotty.YOUR AD HERE
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Well after this post, I can't really see nopoint being scum, and CKD is cleared as the uncountered doctor, so the scum would have to be Vi and VP Baltar.nopointinactingup wrote:I don't buy CKD's town gambit at all. No mod would allow voting tricks like that. I think there are more incentives for scum to have made a quick hammer like that in this game, where there is a godfather, thus CKD is likely godfather.
As for mass claiming, I don't see any reason not to. If we mislynch today a doctor wouldn't help either way so I say the doctor comes out and claim.- sottyrulez
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This is weak. Day 1 ended on page 2, and day 2 up to this point has been about mass claiming, so there really hasn't been any real opportunity to get any kind of footing in the game outside of any of that.VP Baltar wrote:lol, I hope you don't think I'm that arrogant.
My biggest thing about Sottyrulez and nopoint is their general level of hesitance. I know we haven't had much discussion this game, but they don't seem to have said much at all. nopoint in particular.- VP Baltar
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This is also WIFOM.curiouskarmadog wrote:sweet god, I did not see that coming at all...well, now that I am cleared, we are going to actually scum hunt...
I cant see VPscum, not counter claiming doc....it was pretty much a slam dunk that I was going to be lynched and a doc claim from him would have sealed the deal...unless he just wanted to extend this out and demostrate his scum skills....
going to reread (all 5 pages.)
Also in recent experience I've been in 2 mafia games where scum have done something that doesn't make sense to get town cred. Bussing both their scumbuddies on day 1 and 2 (and the kicker on day 2 was that the scum could have hammered a townie.) and more recently in a newbie game where the mafia goon hammered the mafia roleblocker before it was certain what setup was in play (and he also was in a position to hammer a townie.)
So I don't buy that VP is clear because he could have more easily countered the doctor. (Especially because for all he knows the town could have decided that that CKD was too easy of an answer.)
There's also a few quotes from VP that bother me.
Entertains the notion of simply lynching CKD.VP Baltar wrote:Mass claim is probably a worthwhile idea today since we're screwed anyhow. I don't see much of a downside other than hoping against hope that the doc would have a successful protect tonight, and I'd rather increase our chances of lynching scum than I would gamble on that at the moment.
Then again, we could also lynch ckd out of stupidity and play the game again with a reroll if we're wrong.
Ckd, links to said games where that move worked please.
Seems like you're backing off here a bit after fanning the flames on CKD. You were heavily implying that he was scum during post 56, talking about CKD's own rule set not fitting in with his play. Now it looks like you were trying to make CKD look as bad as possible without committing yourself either way.VP Baltar wrote:Well, ckd is claiming precedence as his reasoning for doing it, which is what I'm asking him to prove. The idea of fake voting is not something new, I just don't necessarily believe what he's saying as his reasoning. And screwed was hyperbole of course, but we're certainly in a very poor position game wise at the moment.
@ckd - I don't recall calling you scum at all. I'm simply trying to find out your reasoning. Did something I said make you think I'm calling you scum?
See a lurker lynch also takes relatively little effort as well.VP Baltar wrote:Your reasoning and logic behind doing it are slightly ridiculous, you must admit.
That being said, I'm not certain you are scum. nopoint really bothers me right now actually. But first thing's first, let's get this mass claim going and improve our odds slightly. I'd prefer nopoint claiming first actually.
Defending self with CKD's argument, and the defense is WIFOM. Plus as pointed out earlier, a lurker lynch also requires little effort.VP Baltar wrote:
You and everybody else. Not really an excuse to post no content whatsoever. Also, if I was scum trying to propel a mislynch, I would have just counter claimed ckd. It would have taken approximately -0 effort to get a mislynch on him had he been counter claimed.no point wrote:I have been busy with life. Latching on to arguments like this to propel your mislynch aren't you?- sottyrulez
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How is it an excuse when it's exactly what happened? The game has to be open and we have to be around to actually post.VP Baltar wrote:I've been trying. Vi has been trying. Granted it's not as much as a normal game, but why the excuse making?
As for today, you're trying to vilify us for "not trying" during massclaim. I mean really? When you massclaim, you don't actually do anything until everyone has claimed.- VP Baltar
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Were either of these scum in a position to win the game. If not, then I don't even see how this evidence is related.sottyrulez wrote:Also in recent experience I've been in 2 mafia games where scum have done something that doesn't make sense to get town cred. Bussing both their scumbuddies on day 1 and 2 (and the kicker on day 2 was that the scum could have hammered a townie.) and more recently in a newbie game where the mafia goon hammered the mafia roleblocker before it was certain what setup was in play (and he also was in a position to hammer a townie.)
On a scale of 1-10, how serious do you think I was being?sottyrulez wrote:Entertains the notion of simply lynching CKD.
I was actually playing the game trying to figure out if he was scum or not, yes. Where were you at?sottyrulez wrote:You were heavily implying that he was scum during post 56, talking about CKD's own rule set not fitting in with his play. Now it looks like you were trying to make CKD look as bad as possible without committing yourself either way.
lol. so your argument is that because I was stating suspicions of people in the game, I was being scummy? Vi was a town read and I didn't really have a good read on your slot because you've been pretty innocuous this game. Thankfully, ckd being clear makes this much easier and I can see you scrambling now for an out.sottyrulez wrote:See a lurker lynch also takes relatively little effort as well.
It was a weak argument the first time, repeating it doesn't add weight to it.sottyrulez wrote:Defending self with CKD's argument, and the defense is WIFOM. Plus as pointed out earlier, a lurker lynch also requires little effort.
Let me ask your hydra, what motivation do you think I would have had for not CCing ckd at that point? Who would you have believed more easily was the real doctor?
---preview edit----
As I acknowledged in my post, I'm well aware that the game hasn't been open much. That being said, what you did post on Day 1 was just random vote and answering a question from me. No effort to start the discussion. Now, perhaps you didn't look at the game at all that Sunday, but my point is that in the few posts you did have you weren't exactly spurring the game on. I can only go on what I see. I asked questions. Vi asked questions. Ckd is confirmed town. What other conclusion can I draw from the evidence I have?sottyrulez wrote:How is it an excuse when it's exactly what happened? The game has to be open and we have to be around to actually post.
As for today, you're trying to vilify us for "not trying" during massclaim. I mean really? When you massclaim, you don't actually do anything until everyone has claimed.
(Also, is this Zach or Sotty posting...I am curious this time)YOUR AD HERE
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Not necessarily, I'll explain.VP Baltar wrote: You and everybody else. Not really an excuse to post no content whatsoever. Also, if I was scum trying to propel a mislynch, I would have just counter claimed ckd. It would have taken approximately -0 effort to get a mislynch on him had he been counter claimed.
what is your "pretty town" read of Vi based on?[/quote]no point wrote:My read on Vi is pretty town so that leaves VP and Sotty.
Vi's IsO( the 2nd version actually due to my computer's crash problem xD ).
#0: Confirm, questions SK's vote on me. Vote Sotty.
#1: Pressure SK into giving reasons.
#2: Likes VP's idea.
#3: Calls SK out as a gambit.
#4: Attacks SK for bringing the scum identity to the table.
#5: Explain why SK is likely scum
#6: More analysis.
#7:
Though his first and 3rd reasoning is scum-fabricateable, his 2nd reasoning looksVi wrote:First. I doubt it was a conscious tactical decision. That is, you did not explicitly think "hm I'm going to look Town by jokeclaiming scum".
Second.I'm precluding the possibility of a Town-backed strategem I haven't realized yet because if your verbose post is any indication, there isn't one. If there is one, you're welcome to stop the riddles and come out with it.
Meanwhile, using the word "proven" or "proof" in a defense is an auto-disqualification.
Third. I don't think you have room to take credit for your "antics". If I hadn't said anything, we would still be hip-deep in that awkward futile stage we were in at the top of the page that you were helping to perpetuate.
On a side note, I really don't think insinuating that that MD topic didn't exist is legitimate given that that game occurred in 2005 and I would have had no other way of knowing about it.town mindset. He made a hypothesis, test it out with his pressure and concludes his hypo.
#8: Attacks CKD with strong language.
#9: Discussed finished game.
#10: Suggests CKD's award as his tendency towards a gambit.
#11: Wants me to claim
#12: Claim Vi-Town
#13:
This is veryVi wrote:I like where this is going.town indicative. To a town's mind, CKD claiming doctor would be a good thing. First, if CKD is not counter claimed, towns have a scummy turns town instead of a null turns town. Second, if CKD IS counterclaimed, towns would have narrowed and clearer candidates to look into.
#14: Given his founded case, he expects a counterclaim.
Conclusion: Vi's post demonstrate coherent and townish mindset. I have not seen any scummy posts from him either.
VP's IsOlikewise version 2:
#0: Confirm
#1: Congrats CKD, banter
#2: Banter
#3: banter
#4: Vote Vi to feel satisfied, Vote Sotty.
#5: Discuss Sotty Hydra.
#6: Discuss Sotty Hydra.
#7: Asks Equinox some questions.
#8: Suggests mass-claim. Suggests CKD lynch and jokes (why joke when the goings get serious as opposed to why suddenly serious with questions for Equinox in D1).
#9: Insinuate CKD-scum. Does not state his read.Slightly scummy
#10: Still taking the middle road despite still insinuating CKD-scum.Scummy
#11: More insinuation and wishy washy as if stalling for others' opinions.VP Baltar wrote:Well, ckd is claiming precedence as his reasoning for doing it, which is what I'm asking him to prove. The idea of fake voting is not something new, I just don't necessarily believe what he's saying as his reasoning. And screwed was hyperbole of course, but we're certainly in a very poor position game wise at the moment.
@ckd - I don't recall calling you scum at all. I'm simply trying to find out your reasoning. Did something I said make you think I'm calling you scum?Scummy
#12: Shows CKD how to find past games.VP Baltar wrote: I can see that you misspelled the name. I get the vibe that you really meant to hammer, but again, that's what I'm trying to figure out here. Also, not believing you doesn't necessarily equate to thinking you're scum. That's the most likely conclusion, but not the only one.
#13: More insinuation without read representation.
#14: Despite his many "evidence" against CKD, despite not telling why he's unsure of his read, he's inclined to be bothered by me somehow. Asks me to claim.
#15: Asks me and Vi who should claim first.
#16: Hydra
#17: Claim VT. This time quite overt with his read. i wonder where the confidence comes from.VP Baltar wrote:I'm VT. CKD is town.
I think the scum are sottyrulez and nopoint.Scumyy
#18: His case against me and sotty being we are hesitant when I wasn't even here to hesitate.
#19: Back to this
You could very well have realized that someone would sooner or later notice that everyone was suspicious of CKD before he claimed and thus, inclined to believe that scums were pushing his lynch. It's WIFOM-ic to the least.VP Baltar wrote: You and everybody else. Not really an excuse to post no content whatsoever. Also, if I was scum trying to propel a mislynch, I would have just counter claimed ckd. It would have taken approximately -0 effort to get a mislynch on him had he been counter claimed.
#20: Continues to frame me and Sotty for tiny reasoning such as we don't post enough. Are you happy now?
#21: No comment
Conclusion:I see a level of cautiousness and the tendency towards middle road indicative of scum in VP's post. His thoughts are also a bit incoherent and there seems to be some scum-motivation in his post.
And while I'm at it, I'll
Sotty's IsO: 1st version!
#0: Votes SK without confirming.
#1: Hydra explanation.
#2: Mass claim discussion. Thinks we should mass claim.
#3: Strongly attacking CKD, thinks he's scum. Looks pretty resolute.Town point
#4: More attacks on CKD.
#5: wants CKD to claim first. hmm ..
#6: Claims Town.
#7: Clears me, thinks Vi and VP is scum.
#8: Attacks VP.
#9: Case against VP.
#10: Retaliate VP.
Conclusion:Not much from Sotty, but after IsO-ing him, thoughts of VP-Sotty scum team doesn't look so promising. Sotty does have a tendency to distant really hard so I'm still more inclined on him being VP's partner.
Nevertheless, VP is probably scum and I'm willing to vote him.Justice will prevail
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let me ask you this, if VPscum had claimed doc....would you have voted him over me? Do you think anyone would have voted him over me?
so either VP wants to show off his scum skills and make the game interesting after my blunder, or he is fucking stupid...really fucking stupid.
short of him coming out and saying he is scum, I will not be voting him today.NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE- nopointinactingup
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No I do not think that if he claimed doc, everyone would have voted you right away. The player list are not noobs, we don't make rash decisions in LYLO.
1> People will start noticing that everyone is okay with your lynch one way or another and start becoming suspicious of this easy lynch.
2> If VP claims Doc, that will be what everyone suspects VP to do if he was scum. Whereas there is NO INCENTIVE for you to claim doc if you were scum ( that would be pulling yourself further into a quagmire). Thus, it's really WIFOM-ic whether we would lynch you over VP if he claimed Doc.Justice will prevail
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I'm not going to respond to your unnecessarily huge post point by point; however, I will give you succinct responses.
1) The things you are giving town points to Vi for are missing the point. I would fully expect Vi-scum to have the same logical thought process. Determining Vi's alignment is more about trying to get the general feeling of the cases she's pushing rather than looking at the words she's writing. Trust me, I've seen her play enough to know this.
2) You joining Sotty in calling me scum for attempting to figure out ckd's alignment after his hammer is not surprising. I like how you are both saying that I'm scummy for questioning him when he pulled a move that would have highly benefited scum AND I'm scummy for not arriving at the conclusion that he's scum quick enough. That makes no logical sense. I'm damned if I do or damned if I don't in both of your eyes. How convenient.
This is rich. I'm framing you now? Poor you. How exactly are you two being framed? Was what I said untrue?nopoint wrote:Continues to frame me and Sotty for tiny reasoning such as we don't post enough. Are you happy now?
3) I have joked with people in this game because I know Vi, Sottyrulez and ckd reasonably well. What is scummy about that again? Additionally, it's just a game and because the situation is dire for town doesn't mean I have to go into serious mode. I've doing plenty of the work today, so don't worry your scummy little head. You'll get your lynch sooner or later.
4) Your logic as to why I would not claim doc is pretty heavy fail.
Wrong. If someone WAS scum with ckd, they would almost certainly bus him in that situation.nopoint wrote:People will start noticing that everyone is okay with your lynch one way or another and start becoming suspicious of this easy lynch.
Double wrong. Why would everyone expect that I'm scum in that situation? You're starting at a conclusion and working backward. Additionally, what do you mean there's no incentive for ckd to claim doc in that situation? Claiming power as hypo-scum that quick hammered on Day 1 is about the only way you're going to have a shot at staving off a lynch at that point. That's pretty huge incentive. VP-scum also would have huge incentive to counterclaim, which both you and Sotty seem to want to deny.nopoint wrote:If VP claims Doc, that will be what everyone suspects VP to do if he was scum. Whereas there is NO INCENTIVE for you to claim doc if you were scum ( that would be pulling yourself further into a quagmire). Thus, it's really WIFOM-ic whether we would lynch you over VP if he claimed Doc.
Vi, yooooohoooooooo. You're the missing piece of the puzzle here.YOUR AD HERE
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I need to make it more obvious when I change my sig >.>VP Baltar wrote:Vi, yooooohoooooooo. You're the missing piece of the puzzle here.
I 100% expected ckd to be counterclaimed. I was in a somewhat similar situation in a somewhat similar game, and the very first thing I did D2 was claim Doctor to save myself. Why go through the trouble of throwing a pity party for yourself when you can play the "Get Out of Lynch Free" card? And if you're going to be lynched anyway, why not expose the Doctor along the way?
Then ckd asked me why I brought it up before VP Baltar claimed, and over the weekend I realized there was another side to it. VPB-scum would have had a very easy time counterclaiming ckd for the win (although he likely didn't need my input to determine how likely people would have been to believe him). Alternatively, VPB-scum could NOT counterclaim and attack me along ckd's lines. He didn't do either. This leads me to believe he's more likely Town.
Now for THE MECHANISM, or this game's trump card. Remember when I said this?
And it's true. Think of the game like this.Vi 62 wrote:I don't necessarily think we're screwed, VP Baltar. 50/50 is better than it sounds.
For the (uncounterclaimed) Doctor, it is indeed 50/50.
For everyone else - say, ME for instance - the chances are actuallybetter--
Vi- not voting myself
npau
sottyrulez
VP Baltar
ckd- not voting the uncounterclaimed Doctor
--the chance is actuallytwo in threeof finding scum. If I can find a secure Townie, as far as I'm concerned the game may as well be over.
Granted as I'm reading along, everyone else seems to have noticed this, but with less drama. That was supposed to be more impressive.
----
I'm not sure about whether npau's Godfather post is indicative of alignment. As scum I wouldn't deliberately be ignorant of an Open setup, but I wouldn't accidentally be ignorant of an Open setup as Town either, so I don't really know what to do with it.
I'm not in a frame of mind to concentrate on more than that right now, so the rest will have to wait.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- curiouskarmadog
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I think I've made my arguments, but I'll repeat: Sottyrulez, nopoint, Vi.
That's my order as of right now. Having my little tiffs with Sottyrulez and nopoint was helpful in solidifying this. How hesitant are you about nopoint's "Godfather" remark, ckd? You have me a bit worried at the moment, so I may be willing to put him to the back burner for now. That leaves Sottyrulez as the obvious lynch today, imo.
I think the main argument for Sottyrulez's lynch is that 1) they have been less proactive than either of them typically are as town 2) the arguments they are reaching for to paint me in a negative light are quite illogical. While I'm certainly not clear of anything, the fact that the first conclusion they come to is "VP-scum who's showing off" simply doesn't jive with a town mentality in my experience.YOUR AD HERE
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I am not that hesitant, I mean he could not be paying attention as scum just as well as town, but as scum i assume he has been chatting with someone, and during that chat(s) not being a GF should have come up....it could also be a ploy....all that being said, I probably will not be voting him today, sotty and Vi (leaning toward sotty)..will be getting my vote......
but the jury is still out.NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE- Vi
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VP Baltar, question. You were pretty much the only person who expressly said that ckd may or may not be scum pre-massclaim, and it even sounded like you believed he was Town at the end of your discussion with him. Could you elaborate on that?Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- VP Baltar
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I think I need to you be more specific in your question, Vi. You want to know my thought process while questioning him? Or why I decided he was probably town at the end of the discussion? Or something else I'm not seeing?YOUR AD HERE
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What I need you to do isVP Baltar wrote:I think I need to you be more specific in your question, Vi. You want to know my thought process while questioning him? Or why I decided he was probably town at the end of the discussion? Or something else I'm not seeing?read my mind. It may be easier than reading me when I type my native language.
I meant the second question but you can answer the other two too.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- nopointinactingup
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1> Vi is a she? Can you provide your meta on Vi and Sotty while you're at it because I've never played with her or in fact any of the people still remaining.VP Baltar wrote: 1) The things you are giving town points to Vi for are missing the point. I would fully expect Vi-scum to have the same logical thought process. Determining Vi's alignment is more about trying to get the general feeling of the cases she's pushing rather than looking at the words she's writing. Trust me, I've seen her play enough to know this.
2) You joining Sotty in calling me scum for attempting to figure out ckd's alignment after his hammer is not surprising. I like how you are both saying that I'm scummy for questioning him when he pulled a move that would have highly benefited scum AND I'm scummy for not arriving at the conclusion that he's scum quick enough. That makes no logical sense. I'm damned if I do or damned if I don't in both of your eyes. How convenient.
This is rich. I'm framing you now? Poor you. How exactly are you two being framed? Was what I said untrue?nopoint wrote:Continues to frame me and Sotty for tiny reasoning such as we don't post enough. Are you happy now?
3) I have joked with people in this game because I know Vi, Sottyrulez and ckd reasonably well. What is scummy about that again? Additionally, it's just a game and because the situation is dire for town doesn't mean I have to go into serious mode. I've doing plenty of the work today, so don't worry your scummy little head. You'll get your lynch sooner or later.
4) Your logic as to why I would not claim doc is pretty heavy fail.
Wrong. If someone WAS scum with ckd, they would almost certainly bus him in that situation.nopoint wrote:People will start noticing that everyone is okay with your lynch one way or another and start becoming suspicious of this easy lynch.
Double wrong. Why would everyone expect that I'm scum in that situation? You're starting at a conclusion and working backward. Additionally, what do you mean there's no incentive for ckd to claim doc in that situation? Claiming power as hypo-scum that quick hammered on Day 1 is about the only way you're going to have a shot at staving off a lynch at that point. That's pretty huge incentive. VP-scum also would have huge incentive to counterclaim, which both you and Sotty seem to want to deny.nopoint wrote:If VP claims Doc, that will be what everyone suspects VP to do if he was scum. Whereas there is NO INCENTIVE for you to claim doc if you were scum ( that would be pulling yourself further into a quagmire). Thus, it's really WIFOM-ic whether we would lynch you over VP if he claimed Doc.
2>
- No, I don't expect you to come to a conclusion. Even I'm not in any type of real conclusion at that time and now. However, I do expect you to take a stance. You couldn't have figured out CKD's probable alignment if you don't take a stance and pressure your target. To me, it sounded more like you were equivocating yourself out of commitment before the doctor has claimed.
- What you said was not untrue. However, it is greatly inconsistent. After CKD's hammer, you have made a lot of points against him but are still "trying to figure out his alignment". On the other hand, you called me and Shotty scum with such a small reason as we are inactive ( Note both situations are in LYLO ).
3> I didn't say it was scummy. What do you imply by I will get my lynch sooner or later?
4> Again, discussing this is WIFOM-ic. It can easily be twisted around either way so I'd gladly see it as a null-tell.
I joined this game mostly because of the playlist and somehow thought the scum team consist of a roleblocker AND a godfather.Vi wrote:
So if VP counter-claimed, he's likely town. If he does not, he's likely town. Thus, the utterly and most satisfying conclusion would be VP is likely town because he claimed last WIFOM alert.VP Baltar wrote: Then ckd asked me why I brought it up before VP Baltar claimed, and over the weekend I realized there was another side to it. VPB-scum would have had a very easy time counterclaiming ckd for the win (although he likely didn't need my input to determine how likely people would have been to believe him). Alternatively, VPB-scum could NOT counterclaim and attack me along ckd's lines. He didn't do either. This leads me to believe he's more likely Town.
curiouskarmadog wrote:I am not that hesitant, I mean he could not be paying attention as scum just as well as town, but as scum i assume he has been chatting with someone, and during that chat(s) not being a GF should have come up....it could also be a ploy....all that being said, I probably will not be voting him today, sotty and Vi (leaning toward sotty)..will be getting my vote......
but the jury is still out.Justice will prevail
\m/ - nopointinactingup
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