Open 250 - Pie E7 - Game Over! Scum Win

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Post Post #18  (isolation #0)  » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:32 pm

Confirming in.

VP Baltar wrote:Vote: Vi

God, that is satisfying.
:( That's actually kind of hurtful...

St.Kerrigan wrote:Also, hi to all the folks I've played with before (and I think there's only one person here that I've not played with yet...I think).
That would be me, santa de perras reinas.
What does that npau first-vote mean? I mean, you confirmed it so :?

Vote: sottyrulez (L-2)
God, that is satisfying.
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Post Post #21  (isolation #1)  » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:37 pm

curiouskarmadog wrote:thanks for the congrats...but now I am dying of some sort of flu....ugh...wife is not happy.

vote vi, so much respect
It doesn't count if it's crossed out.~

@St.K: I meant was there any real reason for choosing npau.
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Post Post #28  (isolation #2)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:54 am

I somewhat like this idea.

@Equinox - How well do you think you'll "get along with" each of us ingame?
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Post Post #31  (isolation #3)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:41 am

SaintKerrigan wrote:@ NPAU: My scumbuddy and I tried to nightkill you on N0 and it didn't go through, so now we're trying to lynch you. Clear things up for ya?
I'm gonna call you on this one.

Unvote: sottyrulez
Vote: St. Kerrigan
(L-1)
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Post Post #33  (isolation #4)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:06 pm

SaintKerrigan wrote:
Vi wrote:
SaintKerrigan wrote:@ NPAU: My scumbuddy and I tried to nightkill you on N0 and it didn't go through, so now we're trying to lynch you. Clear things up for ya?
I'm gonna call you on this one.

Unvote: sottyrulez
Vote: St. Kerrigan
(L-1)
You think I'm telling the truth? :P
Somewhat. I think you would be more likely to make this kind of joke as scum.
It wasn't that funny on Page 1 when you just said you had an obviously nonexistent kill, but bringing a scum identity into it changes the flavor a bit.
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Post Post #35  (isolation #5)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:33 pm

SaintKerrigan wrote:
Vi wrote:Somewhat. I think you would be more likely to make this kind of joke as scum.
Explain why I would be more likely to make this joke as scum than as town.
Certainly, albeit not for your benefit.

The gist of it is the WIFOM of "would I really come out and say this as scum". The idea came from Mafia Discussion, and while I cannot find the specific post I have in mind I can show you the game it was referring to. In this game, EmpTyger claimed that the Thenardiers would be likely scum on Page 1. Then he claimed Thenardier on April 1 and tried to pass it off as an April Fool's joke. It didn't work. He flipped Msr. Thenardier, Godfather. EmpTy insisted it was a joke he would have tried regardless of alignment after the game, but in the MD thread I tried to find Yos2 (or someone) disagreed on grounds that make sense - Townies that are trying to win don't try to push the envelope with what they can get away with. And I trust you're not the type who likes to claim NK-Immune Miller Vig for fun, so there we are.

In related news, I just realized where EmpTy's title came from.
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Post Post #39  (isolation #6)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:01 pm

SaintKerrigan wrote:@ Vi: And what makes you assume that what I'm doing doesn't have town reasoning or isn't simply neutral-minded jesting?
I think it's more likely.

Or we can turn it around.
I have no idea why you would have Town motive for what you said, so let's assume you had neutral reasoning. Considering that it's pretty much the extent of your scumhunting so far (and I while I admit this game hasn't exactly blossomed you're certainly not helping) color me unconvinced that you want this game to lead anywhere.
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Post Post #41  (isolation #7)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:50 pm

First. I doubt it was a conscious tactical decision. That is, you did not explicitly think "hm I'm going to look Town by jokeclaiming scum".

Second. I'm precluding the possibility of a Town-backed strategem I haven't realized yet because if your verbose post is any indication, there isn't one. If there is one, you're welcome to stop the riddles and come out with it.
Meanwhile, using the word "proven" or "proof" in a defense is an auto-disqualification.

Third. I don't think you have room to take credit for your "antics". If I hadn't said anything, we would still be hip-deep in that awkward futile stage we were in at the top of the page that you were helping to perpetuate.

On a side note, I really don't think insinuating that that MD topic didn't exist is legitimate given that that game occurred in 2005 and I would have had no other way of knowing about it.
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Post Post #62  (isolation #8)  » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:35 pm

I don't necessarily think we're screwed, VP Baltar. 50/50 is better than it sounds.

I can tell this - based on time stamps, ckd obviously knew what he was doing.
There's no way that was a fakevote. No mod onsite would have NOT counted it.
I'm not even going into bringing the mod into this, although I'm sure the mod himself will have plenty to say after the game.

Large Themes don't have numbers, outside topic numbers.
I don't think meta evidence will say anything one way or the other though.
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Post Post #75  (isolation #9)  » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:58 am

If you want to see your old games in a non-trash format, this is still up though it runs slowly.

post 7952, I had to say "daykill Korts"(recalled Korts right)...in this post I said kill by saying "Kill korts" with a fake kill

I PMed the mod and said that that I was purposely doing it different to fake kill and see what happens..mod said it was fine.
I'm interested in what your Role PM actually said about the matter (I wouldn't have counted that as a fake kill either) but that game existed before people got the impression that posting Role PMs was a good idea so etc. That's neither here nor there though (actually it's more there than here).

---

curiouskarmadog wrote:Vi, I take that you are ok with a massclaim then?
That's correct.

I have made it easy for scum....they even knocked off Eq.....who, was voting me yesterday....looks like an open shut case
I don't think anyone even mentioned Equinox so far. I think you're trying to make yourself look framed.

---

npau wrote:there is a godfather, thus CKD is likely godfather.
Are you sure you're in the right game?
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Post Post #79  (isolation #10)  » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:34 am

curiouskarmadog wrote:
Vi wrote:
curiouskarmadog wrote:Vi, I take that you are ok with a massclaim then?
That's correct.

I have made it easy for scum....they even knocked off Eq.....who, was voting me yesterday....looks like an open shut case
I don't think anyone even mentioned Equinox so far. I think you're trying to make yourself look framed.
I am dumb enough (with a mafia award) to hammer as scum on page 2, but smart enough to try to make myself look framed?

awesome..I am fucking all over the map.
It's not dumb to hammer on page 2 as scum if you can get away with it. With that Mafia award *cough* I think you would know that.
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Post Post #88  (isolation #11)  » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:04 am

VP Baltar wrote:Vi and nopoint, let's hear your votes on who should claim first.
npau, I guess.
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Post Post #91  (isolation #12)  » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:10 pm

nopointinactingup wrote:I'm VT, next comes Vi.
I'm Vi-Town (what else?).

sottyrulez is next.

What's the point in pop corn claiming?
It makes it more difficult for scum to counterclaim.
I had the same question earlier, but after thinking about it it's probably better to do it this way.
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Post Post #95  (isolation #13)  » Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:50 pm

I like where this is going.
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Post Post #97  (isolation #14)  » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:59 pm

curiouskarmadog wrote:
Vi wrote:I like where this is going.
what is the point of this comment before VP's claim?
I expect you to get counterclaimed.
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Post Post #117  (isolation #15)  » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:21 pm

VP Baltar wrote:Vi, yooooohoooooooo. You're the missing piece of the puzzle here.
I need to make it more obvious when I change my sig >.>

I 100% expected ckd to be counterclaimed. I was in a somewhat similar situation in a somewhat similar game, and the very first thing I did D2 was claim Doctor to save myself. Why go through the trouble of throwing a pity party for yourself when you can play the "Get Out of Lynch Free" card? And if you're going to be lynched anyway, why not expose the Doctor along the way?

Then ckd asked me why I brought it up before VP Baltar claimed, and over the weekend I realized there was another side to it. VPB-scum would have had a very easy time counterclaiming ckd for the win (although he likely didn't need my input to determine how likely people would have been to believe him). Alternatively, VPB-scum could NOT counterclaim and attack me along ckd's lines. He didn't do either. This leads me to believe he's more likely Town.

Now for THE MECHANISM, or this game's trump card. Remember when I said this?
Vi 62 wrote:I don't necessarily think we're screwed, VP Baltar. 50/50 is better than it sounds.
And it's true. Think of the game like this.

For the (uncounterclaimed) Doctor, it is indeed 50/50.
For everyone else - say, ME for instance - the chances are actually better--

Vi - not voting myself
npau
sottyrulez
VP Baltar
ckd - not voting the uncounterclaimed Doctor

--the chance is actually two in three of finding scum. If I can find a secure Townie, as far as I'm concerned the game may as well be over.

Granted as I'm reading along, everyone else seems to have noticed this, but with less drama. That was supposed to be more impressive.

----

I'm not sure about whether npau's Godfather post is indicative of alignment. As scum I wouldn't deliberately be ignorant of an Open setup, but I wouldn't accidentally be ignorant of an Open setup as Town either, so I don't really know what to do with it.

I'm not in a frame of mind to concentrate on more than that right now, so the rest will have to wait.
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Post Post #121  (isolation #16)  » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:00 am

VP Baltar, question. You were pretty much the only person who expressly said that ckd may or may not be scum pre-massclaim, and it even sounded like you believed he was Town at the end of your discussion with him. Could you elaborate on that?
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Post Post #123  (isolation #17)  » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:14 am

VP Baltar wrote:I think I need to you be more specific in your question, Vi. You want to know my thought process while questioning him? Or why I decided he was probably town at the end of the discussion? Or something else I'm not seeing?
What I need you to do is read my mind. It may be easier than reading me when I type my native language.

I meant the second question but you can answer the other two too. :D
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Post Post #126  (isolation #18)  » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:21 am

sottyrulez wrote:In other news, Vi doesn't seem to be doing anything. Post 117 was what exactly? A conclusion that VP is likely town but zero pressure to the left over scum picks. That isn't Vi like at all. Her follow up posts are also lacking any kind of real push unless she is backing out of her VP town mind set.

It is looking very much like the scum are VP and Vi.
Post 117 was a catch-up post typed up in semi-delirium mostly featuring things that I thought of over the weekend.

Let me show you the hidden tags in post 121.
VP Baltar, question. You were pretty much the only person who expressly said that ckd may or may not be scum pre-massclaim, and it even sounded like you believed he was Town at the end of your discussion with him. Could you elaborate on that?

</obviously withholding information about a possible conclusion based on whatever answer I get>
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Post Post #128  (isolation #19)  » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:27 pm

You're taking me way too seriously if you think that was meant to be three separate questions, considering I asked you to come up with things I hadn't thought of.~

I'm still having a difficult time understanding ckd's end of it even with that narration, simply because I would have OCD-strangled myself halfway through. I can appreciate the thought process you gave, especially ending with ckd's "It's never been an issue before".

If you want a town or scum meta read of Vi, she has a very extensively annotated wiki.
Oh thanks :igmeou:

---

VP Baltar: What were you trying to accomplish with your D1 questioning of Equinox? Did you know her before this game began?
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Post Post #131  (isolation #20)  » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:10 pm

VP Baltar wrote:
Vi wrote:VP Baltar: What were you trying to accomplish with your D1 questioning of Equinox? Did you know her before this game began?
No, I haven't played with her before...which was exactly what I was trying to accomplish. I didn't really need to get a feel for you or Sottyrulez or CKD because I have played with you guys plenty. Equinox was where I decided to start with the unfamiliars....it's a shame I didn't get very far.
The reason I asked was because I don't think your questions were particularly enlightening. The ice cream question borders on something I got ridiculed for in a different game (asking about favorite fictional characters). I'm not convinced.

Now that my questions are out of the way, I'll go on with my own thoughts. As I said before, following the massclaim I had the impression that you were the Townie. I wasn't going to commit to it as I had misgivings about a few things I noticed and asked you about, and to a degree I still have those misgivings. But I think it's okay to go ahead with this one.

VP Baltar wrote:Now a question for you (and nopoint and Sottyrulez): Why should I believe you're town at this point?
What part of "always Town" is confusing you? :P

Alternatively, one good answer is in our reactions to being put into a 2 vs. 2 winner-takes-all cage match. Look at this.
nopointinactingup 105 wrote:
VP Baltar wrote:My biggest thing about Sottyrulez and nopoint is their general level of hesitance. I know we haven't had much discussion this game, but they don't seem to have said much at all. nopoint in particular.
I have been busy with life. Latching on to arguments like this to propel your mislynch aren't you?
I don't see your remark as THAT inflammatory. Simply put, they hadn't said anything. It's understandable why; Day 1 lasted a little over 24 hours and the massclaim started a little over 24 hours into Day 2. So npau's response touches two nerves--
*The reason is that he was "busy with life". Not "the game has only gone on so long". It's a semantic difference but it sounds like he was avoiding the thread.
*He immediately and reactively attacks you. It's rhetoric, and not the good kind. Plus I'm not sure how one can "latch onto" one's own argument, but whatever.

sottyrulez did something similar with "This is weak.", although FWIW they at least acknowledged the time constraint. In addition,
sottyrulez 110 wrote:See a lurker lynch also takes relatively little effort as well.
This was addressed to you. But if I'm your top Town read and the other two are "lurkers", etc.

Basically, they've overreacted heavily to the main "threat" in the game. That's what stands out most to me. It also eases my decision to trust you >.>
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Post Post #133  (isolation #21)  » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:32 am

no one will convince me [VPB is scum] today
VP might be scum
"I don't know if I'm right or not, but I can be bigoted about it!"
This is the part where I say "remind me to strangle you after the game", but I don't think I'll need reminding.

With that said, I regret to inform myself that I didn't think this through.
Vi 117 wrote:And if you're going to be lynched anyway, why not expose the Doctor along the way?
This would have been ckd's scum motivation for claiming Doctor. There really WASN'T any chance of a turnabout in the case of ckd-Town/VPB-scum both claiming Doctor, because even claiming Doctor was scummy for ckd. I would have thrown a vote down for him.

So ultimately I have to agree that the move makes no sense for VPB-scum, even if it means agreeing with the piteous one.

npau and sottyrulez it is.
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Post Post #136  (isolation #22)  » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:36 pm

curiouskarmadog wrote:wait you want to strangle me, but you agree with my conclusion?
Yep.

Ok, Vi, who would you rather lynch today npau or sottyrulez?
It doesn't really matter, unless you're scum :?
If I were going to hedge my bets I would go with sottyrulez. Plus God knows it's the more satisfying option :P
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Post Post #144  (isolation #23)  » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:38 am

VP Baltar wrote:This is largely directed at ckd, but anyone else may consider as they see fit. I'm currently thinking we should lynch nopoint today. I asked Vi who she would prefer to lynch for a very specific reasoning, that being to lynch the opposite person she chose. Now if my town read on Vi is correct, it doesn't really matter who we lynch out of sotty and nopoint first. Big Whoop. However, if my read of Vi is wrong, that means that she is partners with one of them. Therefore, I asked her nonchalantly what her lynch preference was knowing that Vi-scum in that situation, this close to the votes happening, would not want to direct the town toward her partner. She has chosen sottyrulez as her preferred lynch. Soooo, if my logic is correct and she would be trying to win the thing straight away, we ought to be lynching nopoint right about now. I'm sure Vi-scum would be tricksy enough to cut me off at the pass with this line of questioning if she had seen it coming, but I also don't think I was very direct when asking...idk. I'd like your thoughts.
I would be offended, but then I chose sottyrulez because in the event that you are scum, they're more likely to be your partner.
With that said I'm obviously not thrilled that you want to lynch the person who I don't think would be your scumpartner.

npau, could you in very short terms say why you think VP Baltar is scum?
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Post Post #146  (isolation #24)  » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:16 am

VP Baltar wrote:Not sure why you'd think sotty is likely to be my partner if I was scum, I've pretty much led the way in both the npau and sotty directions.
You've gone after npau more, I think. (You still are :? )
That being said, you certainly have to see how the above logic makes sense from my perspective.
I do.
And from your perspective it shouldn't really matter since you believe me to be town anyhow. :?
More likely than not. But then if you think I'm more likely than not Town, it shouldn't matter to you for the same reason.

Of course, if we're both Town this is a stupid thing to disagree over.
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Post Post #150  (isolation #25)  » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:45 am

@VP Baltar: That's actually a good answer.

Also, I approve of this abuse of the :? smiley.

ckd wrote:1) like the lynch he was on yesterday?...
2) like how he was leaning before the massclaim?
1) L-1 on page 2 was not intended to be a big deal (albeit a badly needed conversation starter). Only morons who can't read obvious L-1 warnings or opportunistic scum would make L-1 a big deal by hammering.
2) Given that you demonstrated that you were not a moron who can't read obvious L-1 warnings, and coupling that with your implausibly bad excuses for hammering, you plunged into obvious scum territory.
THIS IS WHY I'VE BEEN WANTING TO SLAP THE SCREAM OFF OF YOUR AVATAR SINCE THE MOMENT YOU BECAME A CONFIRMED TOWNIE and why I want you to SHUT UP. You can't semideliberately play like the VI plague and then claim poor, pitiful you were framed.

Cut by VP Baltar--Well, that. :igmeou:
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Post Post #160  (isolation #26)  » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:51 pm

VP Baltar 152 wrote:Alright, so my conclusion is that ckd is not willing to vote npau at this point. I don't think I'm willing to vote Vi at this point. The answer seems rather obvious then who needs to die. I think I'm ready to vote if you are ckd.
Likewise. At this point if VP Baltar is scum my jaw will drop.
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Post Post #162  (isolation #27)  » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:03 am

Re: choosing npau to claim first - At the time I had the same sentiment you did - "Why can't the Doctor just claim outright?" I didn't really have a preference and have seen attempts at massclaiming take entire weeks (in one-week deadline BaM setups no less :? ) so I chose whichever name would get it to go faster after hyperskimming who had been named already. Nothing personal.

Re: WIFOM - WIFOM is not scummy. WIFOM is me taking a situation that isn't absolutely indicative of alignment (like, say, almost anything in Mafia) and making my best judgment about it. The arguments against my conclusions are not only improbable, but even when I've considered them they've been blasted away by VPB.

Re: Going for me instead of VPB - At first VP Baltar was the only one threatening you due to my weekend getaway and my concentration on him. I only showed up on the radar when I finally committed to VP Baltar's side.

Re: "That's a good answer" - I'm a hypercritical person with anxiety issues. If there was cause for doubt after VP Baltar's response, I would not have said it was a good answer. Obviously you disagree - like all the times you've called WIFOM - but I have no understanding of why.

Re: Godfather comment - I have committed to saying that it's null.

Re: No reason to believe VP Baltar is Town except for the lack of counterclaim - The lack of counterclaim is a fairly big swing, but you're overlooking how I've been questioning VP Baltar both before and after I decided to say he's probobvTown - fairly constantly post-massclaim. The only answer he gave me that I thought was dubious involved his questioning of Equinox. Or is believing anything anyone says more WIFOM?

Re: Connection with VP Baltar and only wanting to lynch sotty/you because you're not VP Baltar - Well, yes. It's called "process of elimination". I even outlined this immediately after the massclaim:
Vi 117 wrote:Now for THE MECHANISM, or this game's trump card. (...)

For the (uncounterclaimed) Doctor, [the chance of voting scum at random] is indeed 50/50.
For everyone else - say, ME for instance(...)--the chance is actually two in three of finding scum. If I can find a secure Townie, as far as I'm concerned the game may as well be over.
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Post Post #168  (isolation #28)  » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:12 pm

VP Baltar wrote:yeah, I've been stalking this thread all day to see if Vi and nopoint try to quick hammer. Plan to continue most of the night too. Got my tab open with an unvote in case they try it.
It's hard for me to quick-anything with my schedule. That aside, your confidence in me is... not that reassuring at all :igmeou:

What would you like for me to do, VPB?
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Post Post #184  (isolation #29)  » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:25 pm

The time it took to load Page 8 seemed like an eternity o.o;;

VP Baltar 177 wrote:@Vi - why did you ask me what you should do?
That has a lot to do with the answer to this question--
VP Baltar 173 wrote:Anyhow, I think it somewhat weird that neither Vi or no point voted last night. Why's that guys?
--which has a lot to do with my response to THIS--
VP Baltar 167 wrote:yeah, I've been stalking this thread all day to see if Vi and nopoint try to quick hammer. Plan to continue most of the night too. Got my tab open with an unvote in case they try it.
Up until I read this, yes, I was going to vote sottyrulez after I saw you place your vote. Then this is you saying "lol I'm gonna be watching and if Vi or npau try to quicklynch sottyrulez I'm going to catch them in the act". Ignoring the dubious nature of this trap for a moment, consider where this places ME. If I had voted sottyrulez like I wanted to, then DOHOHO I'm trying to work the quicklynch. If not, I'm scummy for sitting on my hands (as evidenced by the first two quotes). So I asked what you wanted me to do, since neither voting nor not voting were acceptable outcomes.

---

VP Baltar 175 wrote:If Sotty and I were both town, Vi and no point could have come in here and lynched either one of us last night without a problem ftw.
Well, not quite "without a problem" given that both of you seem to have more Internet access then both me and npau combined.
With that said the argument is academic for me because I'm not scum, but I do like academics :SCIENCE!:

sottyrulez 178 wrote:Vi has done nothing but fence sit and not fully commit herself. Saying she would vote for us because it is the “satisfying option” is weak. She is leaving her options open.
I've left NO options open by saying VP Baltar is Town except for which of the two of you gets lynched first. This is, again, academic.

ckd 183 wrote:also, would like to hear nopoint and Vi's thoughts on VP's "Sotty must be scum" reasoning, if you disagree with this point, please explain why and who is scum (and why).
See response to VP Baltar 175.

Let's get this over with.
Vote: sottyrulez (L-1)
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Post Post #189  (isolation #30)  » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:48 pm

...
...I have no words. I wish I had words. But none are coming to me.
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Post Post #193  (isolation #31)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:24 am

PRIORITY OVER-RIDE. NEW BEHAVIOR DICTATED.
MUST BREAK TARGET INTO COMPONENT COMPOUNDS.

Unvote: sottyrulez
Vote to Hammer: VP Baltar
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Post Post #197  (isolation #32)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:35 am

VP Baltar wrote:Who was your partner Vi because I can't even tell through the terrible tunnel vision that was on me from both Sotty and nopoint?
You know I don't spoil endings.

I think you'll find my postgame commentary interesting though.
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Post Post #216  (isolation #33)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:12 am

curiouskarmadog wrote:
Vi wrote:I think you'll find my postgame commentary interesting though.
I imagine this will be a lot of CKD is a dumbass
Surprisingly, no.

I will, however, probably wind up reiterating that
npau wrote:Vi was more scum looking with his contentless posts
this shows a lack of understanding of how to play D2 in this game.

In the meantime I'm p-r-e-t-t-y sure Pie E7 is Town-biased, and I'm working on the numbers to see how true it is.
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Post Post #225  (isolation #34)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:42 am

Okay then.

SaintKerrigan - Sorry your last game had to turn out like this. It's part of the job. And I still insist that there was no pro-Town reason for doing that.

Equinox - Equinox would have made the game a lot weirder. The fixation on ckd pretty much cemented that. I'm still disappointed that you didn't recognize me from the wiki.

curiouskarmadog - First, that kind of fakehammer won't and shouldn't work in any game. I think that has been beaten into the ground. However, it's pretty undeniable at this point that you THOUGHT it would work, so that's not a big issue. What IS a big issue is the pity party you threw for yourself immediately afterward - "oh I'm so obviously scum now and the scum even went to great lengths to frame me by killing Equinox"--puh-leeze. Zach suggested the Equinox kill because she's (allegedly) unpredictable, and we knew that she WOULDN'T be Doc protected. Nobody cared that she was the only person voting you (for a random reason, no less!).

You ARE entitled to one "I told you so" per Townie for correctly calling the scum team in the position with the LEAST random accuracy in that situation. I'm still deciding if your vote on me was a good idea or not, considering if you had left it there for any significant length of time VP Baltar would have caught on to a lack of quickhammer there (especially if npau joined in voting for me) and then the game would have been over in the worst kind of way. (well, for me, anyway)

VP Baltar - somehow managed to be dubious and obvTown at the same time. I didn't particularly LIKE being manipulated in that quickhammer "trap", and he kept saying things that made me cringe a little, but he did most of the legwork for Town and was placed in a very convenient position to make the demand terms and command attention.

nopointactingup - Your scumdar needs an upgrade. For one, scum are unlikely to lie about their beliefs on the THEORY of the game. Even if I was scum, the way I was saying to play the game was optimal - hence why I thought VP Baltar was more likely Town and pushed on that until it was true. Once I found the Townie, the other two nonconfirmeds were scum; there's no point in listening to them too carefully. In addition, not all Town reads have to be stated with flashing lights around why. If you find unclarified Town reads to be scummy, you're going to wind up with undeserved scum reads on experienced players who don't deserve them.

sottyrulez - You and npau were victims of the Page 2 hammer; you didn't get a chance to do anything that didn't look like standing around doing nothing. By the time massclaim had come, you were out of luck and almost out of options. You made the right play by going after VP Baltar in spite of him being obvTown; this victory wouldn't have been possible without it.

Vi - I hate being scum. Not so much for moral reasons any more, but because every time it happens people are freshly reminded that they can't trust ANYTHING I SAY EVER. (The Scummy under my name is there for irony.) Standing by and watching VP Baltar ask ckd for his Vi-case in engrossing detail was difficult because I'm fairly sure VPB's motivation for asking for it stemmed partly from his (however justified) lack of confidence in being able to read me based on previous games.

I probably went a little overboard on grouchiness in regards to ckd, but etc.

The biggest blunder of the game was mine. I absolutely Did Not see ckd-Doc coming, so I didn't even bother asking him to claim, instead choosing my partner to go next. After npau claimed Vanilla, I fully expected VP Baltar to be the Doctor, and I decided (wisely under these incorrect assumptions) not try to go toe-to-toe with him. THAT's how Day 2 post-massclaim was just as strong as if Day 1 was more "normal".

While getting pseudo-manipulated by VP Baltar was rather annoying, I was hoping to stall until npau voted. Really I wasn't sure which would look less scummy between immediately voting sottyrulez and hoping for the best in LyLo or waiting for npau and hoping nobody saw what was up. The stakes were raised when ckd started voting me, so I don't think we won by any kind of large margin.

jasont1981 - The modding was invisible and just what this game needed. Your call on the fakehammer was 100% correct. My only recommendation is to place the player list in the topic post like 97% of the rest of the mods onsite.

Pie E7 - I'm still halfway through running the numbers - there are a lot of possibilities to consider - but really, this game HAS to be Town-sided compared to others. Short of lynching an unclaimed/uncounterclaimed power role D1, there is GUARANTEED to be at least one confirmed Townie in 5P LyLo. Scum either has to pony up one of their own to claim, or most of the Town has significantly BETTER odds of lynching scum D2 and possibly LyLo as well. If there are MULTIPLE confirmed innocents D2 (say the Cop gets an investigation or both the Cop and Doc are left alive) then the scum are in deep trouble if they DON'T counterclaim, so etc.. I feel the setup is really dominated by who gets which role.

---

VP Baltar wrote::( I just can't win no matter how hard I try.
I feel your pain.
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Post Post #226  (isolation #35)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:45 am

St.Kerrigan wrote:That leaves either nopoint or sottyrulez as Vi's partner. I think the probability is higher for sottyrulez to be scum, because I don't think that npau-scum would popcorn his scumbuddy,
Oh, like I did?~

I feel incredibly dumb for missing Equinox's breadcrumb.
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Post Post #231  (isolation #36)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:12 am

VP Baltar wrote:
Vi wrote:I didn't particularly LIKE being manipulated in that quickhammer "trap"
:( What was wrong with that? You didn't feel it was a fair play to make?
Don't :( me; you're making me sad.
It was KIND of a fair play to make considering the difference in me and npau's access times, but expecting me to vote when you said it would be a scummy sign wasn't fair.

Vi wrote:he kept saying things that made me cringe a little
que?
At times it felt like you were saying things that you couldn't get away with if you weren't obvTown. Watch this exchange again for an example.
YOU: So sotty and npau are both scum because you're Town. Who do you want to lynch first?
ME: It doesn't matter. sotty, I guess.
YOU: So we're lynching npau! If you're scum, you're more likely to be scum with the person you didn't name.
ME: Um. What? When did I become scum? And considering I picked sotty because they're more likely to be scum IF you are, it sounds like you just charmed your way into not lynching your partner :igmeou:

Vi wrote:VP Baltar ask ckd for his Vi-case in engrossing detail was difficult because I'm fairly sure VPB's motivation for asking for it stemmed partly from his (however justified) lack of confidence in being able to read me based on previous games.
Yes, exactly. As much as I was against lynching you today, tomorrow would have been a completely different story because you're adept enough at appearing town. As I said earlier, reading you is sort of like reading tea leaves. You can't really look at the words you're saying because they'll appear town. It's more about feel in relation to whoever else is alive. Then again, maybe you've just played with me too much and know how to sound reasonable in particular to me. :P
I evidently didn't sound reasonable to SaintKerrigan, though I'm not sure why :?

--

jason wrote:Vi, I did put tha player list in the top post ;)
You need to visit my reality more often. I'm wrong a lot less.
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Post Post #233  (isolation #37)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:21 am

nopointinactingup wrote:I disagree with this. I don't call for flashbulbs either. The only reason I think such tells are invalid in this game is that you guys know each other well enough to have unexplained town reads.
Well, that's not necessarily true. It's possible to get newbTown (or n00bTown) reads on people you don't know that are difficult to explain either because you can't find the words to do it or nobody will believe you anyway.

Shotty
Neither Shotty to the Body nor DrMyShottyIzSik were in this game :P
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Post Post #235  (isolation #38)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:33 am

That kind of makes sense, but looking for Townies and considering everyone else to be scum doesn't work outside awesome PoE like what this setup allows or basic Day 1 "acceptable lynches".
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Post Post #239  (isolation #39)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:03 am

curiouskarmadog wrote:I have never been in a game where that had been an issue and really thought I had done soemthing like that before (again it was a vig and not a vote)...so at least I learned something.
Saying you have never been in a game where it had been an issue when it has only happened once seems like a technicality.

what saved me during the claim was Nopoint coming out and claiming and then picking someone else to claim...I knew I had to be one of the last people to claim for it to work....

but I think scum would agree, they didnt win because they were just that good...they won because we really dropped the ball....
Nope. The scum, or rather I, dropped the ball by not forcing you to claim early, essentially canceling out your mistake.
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Post Post #240  (isolation #40)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:04 am

EBWOP: That middle part shouldn't be there.
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Post Post #249  (isolation #41)  » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:21 pm

Equinox wrote:
Vi wrote:I evidently didn't sound reasonable to SaintKerrigan, though I'm not sure why
Initially, I had my investigate on you because you were making a huge mountain out of SaintKerrigan's molehill. The attack was rather unreasonable, at least IMO. I had a change of heart and switched to CKD because I figured I needed mod-confirmed information on him to make sure he wasn't pulling a gambit-gambit. Didn't matter in the end, though.
Whale, it's pretty much as I said on Page 2. If nobody was going to start making a big deal of SOMETHING, the game wasn't going to go anywhere. We needed a starting point, and I was willing to provide one even if it meant (hopefully temporarily) getting on someone's bad side to do it. Had Day 1 lasted until I found a better target, I would have almost completely dropped that line of argument.

In looking through the wiki regarding the original newbie setup, I think it was determined that setup was relatively balanced. (The only difference is that mafia has no roleblocker in that setup.) It was simply undesirable because of follow the cop.

The addition of the roleblocker eliminates that to a degree... and probably adds a few points against the town EV.
Relative to other games, though, I think this setup has a higher-than-average Town EV.
In addition, I would expect an experienced Town to steamroll the scum in a game that is 50/50 given random lynches and Night actions.
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Post Post #255  (isolation #42)  » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:01 am

SaintKerrigan wrote:(Sorry for the quadruple post, but I forgot that I wanted to post this.)

For Vi's amusement: the other game where I claimed scum.
So I'm still trying to figure out what reasonable ground you had for thinking I was scum, without success.
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Post Post #257  (isolation #43)  » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:37 am

Zachrulez wrote:
Vi wrote:
SaintKerrigan wrote:(Sorry for the quadruple post, but I forgot that I wanted to post this.)

For Vi's amusement: the other game where I claimed scum.
So I'm still trying to figure out what reasonable ground you had for thinking I was scum, without success.
Perhaps it was the gun hanging out of your pocket... :P
*looks down*
Oh. THAT.
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Post Post #268  (isolation #44)  » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:40 am

Zachrulez wrote:I think everyone but Vi has said they'd be interested.

Would you be down for another round Vi?
I'd rather have a different setup tbqh, but opting out would mean that you'd have to find someone else and I'm not that selfish.
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Post Post #273  (isolation #45)  » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:06 pm

SaintKerrigan wrote:Joking that I'm scum doesn't actually mean I'm more likely to be scum.
This is where we disagree... which is what started this in the first place.

It wasn't honest scumhunting, but rather the setting up of a mislynch.
You thought I thought I could get a mislynch on Page 2? ...on second thought, don't answer that.

Aside from that, the alternative would have been:
"WHAT YOU DID IS SCUMMY"
"No it's not. Even if it is, is that really your case? Are you really going to see me lynched because of that?"
"Well no not really"
and the game goes back to "So who do you want to lynch?" "sottyrulez" "Any good reason why?" "Well why not?" "Good reason. <VOTE>" "Wait WHAT?" and nothing productive gets done. Someone had to be pushy.

Your explanations are insufficient to convince me you're not scum in this meta-game. Vote: SaintKerrigan (L-3)

Now we have to do it, if only to keep SaintKerrigan playing mafia :D
I just had an evil thought for how to keep him playing here INDEFINITELY. :twisted:
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Post Post #276  (isolation #46)  » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:33 pm

VP Baltar wrote:
Vi wrote:
Now we have to do it, if only to keep SaintKerrigan playing mafia :D
I just had an evil thought for how to keep him playing here INDEFINITELY. :twisted:
Ah, so this is my purgatory. Perpetually losing to Vi and Sottyrulez. Sigh.
:(
You're making me :( again. Stop that.

Ah, but it'll be different this time, I promise! (Unless I'm scum, in which case I'm lying.)
Also this.
All we need to do is keep having "invalid" games for whichever reason :D
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Post Post #282  (isolation #47)  » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:33 pm

VP Baltar wrote:@Vi - you'll probably feel better if you just tell me your alignment at the start of the next game.
Will do!

I think I need to change my name to Anvil. :(
We can't change your name but we can change your title.~
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Post Post #285  (isolation #48)  » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:34 am

nopointinactingup wrote:Jason's call.
(well, it's more like farside's call...)
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