Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Seacore]

EBWOP: Sorry, I'm assuming "talking about what an insanity infraction does" causes a modkill, rather than a single infraction causing a modkill. A reread showed me that wasn't clear.

[Seacore]

Whoa! Slow down on the Baby Spice votes please. We've got some night actions to organise.

[Seacore]

thanks for proving that you are scum, BS. But if you were town, you'd remember that lynching is just one of several tasks we do each day. Can some people please unvote? I'd hate for a couple of "oops I didn't realise we were so close and it turns out she chose suicidal" votes.

[Seacore]

Baby Spice is currently on 9 votes. That's L-2. If she's suicidal, that's L-1.

[Seacore]

Let this be a lesson as we approach smaller majorities. It's not a good idea to throw a few votes down, prior to organising the night actions.

We should determine who is to be lynched, without votes (if possible, and I think it will be possible most of the time) and then organise and then votes.

The combination of players that feel they can just pop in with a two line (if that!) post and vote for somebody, and things like suicidal and the ability to self vote means we could be fucked with night actions very easily.

If BS had waited for one more vote before self voting and if she had suicidal, we'd have been screwed.

[Seacore]

Crap, good work Seacore, I read the 11 in the deadline as 11 needed to lynch. We could be in twilight as we speak. shit.

Warding me would be fucking excellent.

I agree with no potential scum robbing, given that we might not be able to tell if they complied, it's not as useful.

[Seacore]

Happy New Year all, let us hope this is not the year Yog-Sarnothagog rises from the deep.

[Seacore]

CD6

Username:

Seacore

Did you Hear Noise?

Yes

Did you Ward? If so, who?

No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

Yes, I gained Hallucination from Stalking AV, and I gained Mutilation because somebody tried to fucking murder me!

List all of the insanities you currently have:

6 - Twitchy, Solist, Obsession, Taboo:Investigate, Hallucination, Mutilation

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result?

No

Are you bloody? If so, why?

Yes, Because somebody tried to fucking murder me

Did you Stalk? If so, who, and was it successful?

Yes, I stalked AV, and Yes, successful

Twitch?

*twitch*

Vote: Seacore

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote

[Seacore]

Okay, so my initial assumption was that I was hit by a murderer, because I got a fetish night before last.
So the cult should have had to craft one before they could ritual me, therefore, murderer must have stabbed. So we have a murderer out there.

However, there was no cult kill. And I just re-read the rules on craft fetish and it says nothing about not being able to craft one even if you have one already. You just can't do it on the same turn that you pass one. So maybe they had two in the bank. I've been hearing noise every night so it's possible.

So we may not have a murderer out there afterall

Need everybody's claims first.

Also, thanks a bunch whoever rezzed me, you're a fucking champ.

[Seacore]

VP, you botched the vote test by copying me. Although I think it still works the same way.

Actually no, you didn't test yourself for paranoia.

[Seacore]

Now you need to vote for Benmage and xvart.

[Seacore]

Please unvote Nicodemus

I know we're nowhere close, but lets not have the same mistake as yesterday.
I'm asking you to do this VP, because unlike a bunch of players, you read the game.
Too many people skim and vote without thinking.

[Seacore]

I don't have much to add except for an idea. We currently test for paranoia, distraction and sadism.

When should we start testing for suicidal? Obviously Benmage will be excused, but at some point, we should be regularly bringing everybody to L-1 (after determining night actions).
I think sucidial is one of those insanities that the scum have taken, figuring that if they get to that point, they were probably dead anyway.

[Seacore]

I know discussing scum targets and the reasons for those targets is usually WIFOM but if cult targeted me last night there were nights of planning involved.

On Night 1 they gave me a fetish.
On Night 5 they attempted to kill me.
Therefore on Night 2 they fetished me again
Night 3 they repeated the fetish of me
Night 4 they gave me one of the two fetishes.

That's a significant amount of work, which means one of three things is true.
1) They've been doing that for a bunch of us, which means nobody who gets a fetish is safe the next night
2) They did it to me by random
3) They did it to me because I'm a threat.

I don't think I've been, planning wise, any more of threat than, let's say, Hito or xvart.

So maybe my scum lists have been on target?

[Seacore]

Nico has lied.

He would have also gained an insanity from his successful resucitation

Bingo.

[Seacore]

Oh wait, I misread that, my bad.

[Seacore]

From now on, anybody with investigate or commune results needs to go last in claims I think.

[Seacore]

Nacho, can you also claim what you did.

[Seacore]

@Seacore: The immediate issue I see with suicidal testing is scum quickhammering for a mislynch, even if it outs one of them.

Kunk, assuming we aren't in Mylo (or even close to it) that would be an awesome outcome. Not as good as lynching a scum, but I'll trade one of us for one of them any day of the week. Hell, if we hit scum with tonight's kill, assuming scum succeed in killing one of us, then that means we're at 11v4. I'd be willing to trade 2 for 1.

[Seacore]

Benmage, I'd like to at least see your draft stalk plan, whether or not we go with it.

Andrius, there's a few too many people at the moment to do suicidal checks, it would be so painful, especially considering we have players who don't turn up very often.

What we should do, maybe in a day or two, is organise for X players to be online at the same time (where X is the number needed to L-1) and just vote for everbody in turn. The only fear I have is not that scum will hammer, it's that players who don't really read the game will hammer. We've got too many of those at the moment.
But apart from that, on Day 8 we should have 13 players left. Meaning L-1 is 6 players. We should be able to russle up 6 players to do the suicidal checks.

As for the other insanities. Like I said in an earlier post (day 4 maybe?), out of the 15 insanities that cultists can take, 3 are "safe", 5 are "testable" (we already test for 4 of them and suicidal can be tested soon) and 7 are, to varying degrees, painful for scum.

I'm off to do some maths and I'll be back.

[Seacore]

@xvart... interesting... I'll be looking into all of your claimed actions as soon as I'm on a PC that can easily flick back and forth between pages (I'm got the shortened page issue on this work computer)

Also, I'm back with my promised maths.

Baby Spice had 5 insanity points when she died on Day 5
Spyrex had 4 insanity points when he died on Day 4.

One of spyrex's insanity points is explained away by a grave rob (he unlikely performed the 2nd graverob since he knew scum would ward the corpse)
Therefore Baby Spice has 5 untracable insanity points
And Spyrex has 3 untracable insanity points

There are 5 other cultists.

Let's assume that they hare spreading their insanity points thin. And lets also look at a minimum insanity scenario.
It was possible for none of them to have insanity points from N0, they could crafted fetishes by 2s instead of 3s.

N1 - 3 points minimum - Ritual
N2 - 3 points minimum - Ritual
N3 - 4 points minimum - Ritual + Warding DGB
N4 - 3 points minimum - Ritual
N5 - 3 points minimum - Ritual

N1 - BS + Spyrex + C3
N2 - BS + Spyrex + C4
N3 - 2xBS + Spyrex + C5
N4 - BS + C6 + C7
N5 - C3 + C4 +C5

So assuming these minimum actions, 3 cultists have 2 insanities, 2 cultists have 1.

2 things should be noted,
these might already be counted, from unprovable night claims. So I think we should look closely at anybody who has stalked and not followed through, and anybody who has communed.
some actions are provable (to an extent) so these insanities would be on top of those.

An updated insanity list including what people did to get the insanity points would be awesome.

[Seacore]

@xvart, is there any evidence that you didn't kill N1? Considering you've just stated that a murderer would get the success even if another murderer (MOI) did the act?

From memory, there isn't any evidence that MoI was warded, because you were one of two claimants on that. Who was the other?
Is there any evidence that El Goosuki was warded N1? By you?

Actually, you could have tried to kill whoever the ritual target was N1 too, there were two rez claimers on that too.
I'm not saying I think you're already a murderer, the odds of both you and MoI picking LB are long, but I'm going by the book.

In other news, I just had a look at the insanity tally. Assuming nobody (except spyrex once) has shirked on their graverobbing duties, since I think that'd be risky) if AV, Kunk or Plum are cultists, they have hidden insanities.

Anybody else could just just claimed to have received a fetish / communed. And ritualled instead.

[Seacore]

It might be a good idea for people to try and prove how they got their insanities, but I don't know how possible that would be.
1 of my insanities comes from graverobbing, another comes from a stalk that i'll be able to prove with tonight's murder.
But the other 4 are basically unprovable. I've had two fetishes passed to me, I've stalked a warded stalkee and I've nearly been killed.

Will it be any easier for people with lower insanities? I'm seeing a lot of fetish passing and communing.

[Seacore]

Excellent, I'm satisfied with that xvart. I just couldn't find it all myself because of these stupid browser issues.

[Seacore]

Yep, but xvart (regardless of whether he is investigator or murderer currently) only has 1 successful kill. So it will take him a minimum of 3 more nights to win.

[Seacore]

I'm okay with Iec doing the murder on AV instead of me.

I can stalk again tonight and murder the next. Which will bring me to 8 insanities. Yeeesh.

[Seacore]

AV, you've been on the stalk list for two days now.

Why are you freaking out now? Why didn't we hear a case about how town you were back then?

[Seacore]

Yep, claim away. If you die and come up town they'll be useful.

[Seacore]

And I am bloody, so it's not going to do either of us any good.

[Seacore]

sigh, of course. I'm way to tired for this game right now.

As for your L-2 plan. It doesn't do anything special. It's still an organisational and logistical nightmare to get everybody, in turn, to L-2 and then have them vote themselves (with the exception of xvart and benmage who have admitted to suicidal)

[Seacore]

Okay

[Seacore]

Not to mention, I'm a bit of a lost cause at this point anyway, might as well pile on the insanities. I'll be taking Marked soon enough and then I might be too good a target to pass up.

[Seacore]

^To add to this, notice that BabySpice took Suicidal. Presumably he discussed his insanities with the cult. I think they could all have potentially garnered a hankering for suicide.

AV, I have already said all of this. I think we should wait two days and then start doing it. We lynch Nico today, lynch plum tomorrow and then start doing it.

[Seacore]

I still think Nico is scum. I think we'll find somebody else claim they resus'd me before all the claims are in.

If that doesn't happen, then we can kill Plum

[Seacore]

What is your read on kunkstar?

Really murky to be honest. I find myself assuming town and but I'm really suspicious of that assumption because I don't know where it came from.
Actually, I think it came from when I was trying to push that DGB lynch against the MOI and kunk wagons.
But still, he seems town enough, but ... yeah.

[Seacore]

TNM should claim his target, absolutely.

Murder goes first, then ritual.

In other news, we shouldn't do the suicidal test until we have our night plans sorted out, just in case.

[Seacore]

TNM, it's quite simple. If you're cult, you wait for somebody else to die and then say "I killed him, oh, it seems somebody else did too"

alternatively you say "I tried to kill the ritual target, I guess somebody rezzed him once"

[Seacore]

Yeah xvart, I got it from a Fetish on Night 1

[Seacore]

Players sitting there with first aid and forensics doing one of the two each night is a good thing, and wouldn't cause insanities.

It was what I planned to do all game until I got roped into grave robbing and stalking

[Seacore]

Yeah, I SA IV I'm going to post a players guide right at the beginning and make everybody declare they've read it.

[Seacore]

Yeah, it's not murder, it's "culling to protect the herd"

[Seacore]

Yeah AV, I actually agree with that.

I think I'm fairly confirmed, assuming Triglav doesn't come in and say that he was also the subject of a kill attempt. But given that nobody else has claimed to have successfully rezzed, then that's unlikely.

So unless i'm the product of a crazy scum gambit, I'm town.

The other side of things, about who claimed stalk targets in what order is also a good point. Yes the scum know who heard noises, but there's communes, first aids and inverstigates flying around as well as stalks, so they couldn't have known who.

I think Iec should complete the kill.

AV, I think you should flip a coin as to which one of us you first aid.

[Seacore]

And in the case that you, AV, are cult, If other people feel the need to Rez either myself or Iec, go ahead. There's always the chance that scum start greater ritualling with all 5/4 of them, so double up rezzes aren't bad.


In other news, unless Triglav says he rezzed me, Nico turns into mostly town.

And we should lynch the bejeezus out of Plum.

[Seacore]

I don't like TNM's statement that if his kill doesn't go through we can kill him tomorrow. That's not a town statement. If he's targeted scum there's a chance they'll protect that person, over protecting AV or Andrius (in the assumption that one of them is scum) just because it provides a mislynch.

Although, here's a fun point.
There are 5 scum, two of them are bloody. Which means three at max have first aid kits. And if they've been spreading the ritual around, probably even less.

[Seacore]

Yes, it is still a good idea because the almost certainly know your target anyway.

Scum know which among them have heard things
Town have told the truth about hearing things.

Scum know what they've done
Town have told the truth about what they've done.

Therefore scum almost certainly already know who you've stalked. So what we're asking for you to do is reveal it to the town.

Revealing stalk targets is the only way we can confirm town.

Lets say we didn't reveal our stalk targets.
I kill AV tonight.
Iec then says "hey, so did I"

Neither of us are confirmed.

Scum have very very very few first aids. 3 at absolute most, probably less. Therefore they can't easily rez your target.

And you were wrong about the murder/ritual thing.
Murder resolves first, so the target is murdered. The ritual then fails to resolve because there's nobody alive. It's been spelled out previously by the mod, I just can't find where.

Also, I don't like what you've said about "if you're not confirmed we should lynch you" That's not a town thing to say. You should be scum hunting during the day and depending on your findings and also your pro town behaviour to keep you alive, not what appeares to be a last minute stall of you trying to stay alive just one more night.

If you don't declare who you've stalked, you can claim to have attempted to murder the ritual target. And then you have have one of your cult buddies claim to have rezzed the ritual target. Hell, he'll even be bloody enough to prove it, because he killed the guy with you.

But I'm done arguing with you, we're all done arguing with you. Claim or die.
If you are town, even if you think we're all wrong, are you willing to have us lynch a townie over this debate?

[Seacore]

Trilo, I would like to hear more about why it should be me, I felt that AV made a compelling argument

Benmage, I'd like you to weigh in on this too, probably after Trilo

[Seacore]

BM, don't start voting.

Let's organise all the night actions

To do list before we lynch either TNM or Plum
1. Get Triglav's night claim
2. Make a final decision as to who kills who.
3. Finalise other night actions in a formal Hito-esque post

Once these are done we can progress to lynching.

Hell, once we do those three we can even try out some suicidal tests, although I think it's too cumbersome at the moment. If we do do it, whoever is going to be our lynch for the day must be one of the first to vote in each test.

[Seacore]

TNM, as Feysal has put, it is more important for us to watch scum reactions than to confirm townies.

Declare your target.

If you hit scum, scum either die or they save the person. If you die in the night and they save your declared target we've probably found scum

If you hit town, scum either let you do it and you're confirmed, or they spend a first aid kit and their ritual on a target of your choosing.

If you ARE scum, you'll get caught, or try to claim that scum has rezzed your target and is staying quiet about it. If that's the case we kill you, and if you flip town, we kill your target.

If you don't declare:
Maybe you get confirmed.
If you dont' get confirmed and you are town, we mislynch.

[Seacore]

In that worst case scenario, TNM, you've still dictated who the cult will ritual, which is better than them killing someone who is pro-town.

Meanwhile, we've got communers, investigators and stalker/killers hunting for them.

[Seacore]

Exactly.

Also, maybe they don't have the rez kit to spare.

And your death tomorrow is not a forgone conclusion even if you aren't confirmed, we have other people out there doing night actions.

[Seacore]

Option 2 is that we lynch TNM today. I'd rather VP alive than TNM, regardless of confirmations.

[Seacore]

I've read over all this very quickly because it's the weekend and I'm at my parents place with shit to do.

However, at a glance, Trilo has some good points. DGB was warded, but combined with Spyrex, I know it looks bad. As far as insanity points go, it was neutral, spyrex gained a point for warding rather than grave robbing. Benmage's counter about easy dust if we were both scum is strong.

As for the argument about whether BS or DGB did the robbing, I didn't closely read trilo's postings there, or go back and read over the actual posts where it happened, but my memory is that, before the final vote as to which method we would use, I had substituted the names in. The reason I did that then, is that it was the 'natural' way the votes were sitting. The only reason BS got up at the end was that people had jumped off DGB to either vote for MoI to finish the day or to try and find an alternative because they didn't want to lynch MoI.

But whatever. I am more than happy to do the kill. I await some kind of final declaration and will remove myself from the discussion about whether it's me or Iec.

[Seacore]

I've had a think, and I'm not sure about lynching TNM

If TNM is scum, he cannot murder VPB. Which means scum have to do it. Hito raises a good point about the rezzing, but there's always the chances that multiple rezzes hit VPB anyway.

If TNM is town, he might murder VPB (who may or may not be scum) and he'll be confirmed.

The real point, however, is we can kill TNM tomorrow after he's had a chance to confirm himself.

Do I think he'll be confirmed? No, I think he's scum. But it can wait a single day when we have an awesome lynch candidate in Plum.

Depending on how we're going for time after everything gets organised, I'm okay with some suicidal testing.
Iec and I should be tested, with the other standing in ready to kill AV should one of us die from having suicidal.
TNM should be tested.

[Seacore]

I think I'm with VP, I find it really hard to believe that scum would skip a kill just to spare Nico, but it's definitely worth the test.

Suicidal is going to be an absolute arse to test. I'd personally prefer both TNM and Plum on every bandwagon early, so they can't jump in to kill somebody.

[Seacore]

I agree with Trilo, scum can't screw up all our confirm kills, lets lynch Plum

[Seacore]

My 5.

You'll notice AV not on the list, due to AV's reaction today I'm less confident that I"m going to be murdering scum tonight, but I'll still go through with it form confirmation and the chance that it's all been a gambit.

Andrius
Nacho
Plum
TNM
VV

Other contenders are Iec and Kunk

[Seacore]

Also, I've been thinking that someone should stalk me tonight.

Trilo made a decent case against me, one that I think cult might find too tempting to ignore, so I think I'm a good candidate for them to fuck with. Especially since i don't think I'm murdering cult anymore, so AV will be a good ritual target.

So tomorrow, if AV is dead due to ritual, I'll be an obvious (mis)lynch. So to avoid that, someone should be in a position to murder me.

Murdering me (if necessary) confirms somebody else, saves us the lynch for somebody who might actually be scum, and stops messing with my murder being so tempting to the cult.

Thoughts?

[Seacore]

Ah, true AV, so the only way (from my POV of knowing I'm town) of cult messing with me is if you are cult, if we both survive the night, you should be lynched, and if you die from ritual, I should be lynched.
Worst case scenario, cult ritualled one of their own to mislynch me, which is a decent trade in my books.

Ah, I'm feeling much better about that.

[Seacore]

Indeed, we should.

Just to work this through and see if I'm missing something

Our stalk/murder/confirm strategy is designed to have Person A murder Person B. Person B should First Aid somebody so that First Aid cannot work on them.
Person B should be declared as "Murdered" during the next Day's opening post, and thus Person B will be confirmed.


Negative Outcome 1: If Person B is dead from Ritual, since a murder action should have been successful due to Person B using First Aid and thus being immune to First Aid themselves, Person B likely did not murder and should be lynched.

Potential Issue: Person B may have been scum, who did not use first aid, had one his cultist buddies first aid him instead and then got ritualled for the purpose of making Person A look guilty. This is a fine trade, and cult are welcome to do this.

Negative Outcome 2: If Person B is still alive, Person B likely used first aid and got rezzed. Person B should be lynched.

Potential Issue: Person A may not have actually murdered, and lynching Person B will be lynching town. However Person A will have outted themselves as scum. At this stage of the game, that's fine, but it could get dangerous as we approach late game.

Have I covered everything?

[Seacore]

EBWOP: Sorry, it should read "and thus Person A will be confirmed"

[Seacore]

Good point on the rez target. I likes it.
We are also hopefully stacking it by putting scummy people in Person B slots and towny people in Person A slots.

[Seacore]

So, with that in mind

we should lynch plum

Hito murders Andrius
Andrius first aids Hito

Seacore murders AV
AV first aids Seacore

TNM murders VPB
VPB first aids TNM (can VPB first aid?)

Iec restalks.

[Seacore]

Plan is risking VP for TNM? This is not furc for xvart quality exchange

I'm not wrapped about it either but given we have a good lynch candidate other than TNM, I think it's worth it. The only downside is that I'm not sure (and can't be bothered checking right now) whether VP has a first aid kit.

If he doesn't then cult could screw that one up far more easily. And thus, if he doesn't, I'd be willing to entertain lynching TNM instead, since we can't trust the results.

[Seacore]

I've had the same fears with Benmage.

My thoughts are that tomorrow night we get somebody to stalk him and the next night get them to kill him. As he's taken suicidal he's a liability even if he's town. He's admitted as much and will likely accept the death happily.

I had completely forgotten about chaos though, yeeeesh. I'll have to look into that. I'm planning on taking forced laundering tonight anyway.

As for my quote and your response. That's awesome. One less possibility for scum.

[Seacore]

Regardless of Benmage's alignment, he cannot surive to end game, he and xvart are liabilities due to suicidal. Soon, they will become stalk targets.

[Seacore]

Chaos is still something to be fearful of

[Seacore]

Unless he has a rez kit, which I don't think he has.

[Seacore]

Multiple rez kits will not work.

a) The scum might have dust (unlikely but possible)
b) the scum can greater ritual
c) There's no way to tell what kind of kill the rezzing protected against,

This gives us no information about you. So if VP cannot rez somebody else, we cannot trust that your claimed kill attempt will provide us with solid information, and thus we're likely killing VP for no gain.

[Seacore]

No Plum Iec?

[Seacore]

AV, I thought you were scum up until your reaction and behaviour today.

But at least we'll have "Superconfirmed Seacore" by tomorrow.

[Seacore]

We also might need a prod on Plum, seeing as how she's likely going to be the lynch today.

[Seacore]

Vas,

Hito confirmed and almost certianly alive > VPB confirmed and probably dead.

[Seacore]

Andrius, IF TNM is given the go ahead to murder VPB, and it's an IF at the moment, then Andrius, you will rez hito. And hito will be murdering you.

Vas, If VP and TNM end up alive tomorrow, with a dead andy, then we will know that VP is town (assuming, in your scenario, it was VP that we gave the go ahead to), but we will not know about TNM, because he may have ritualled VP.

Hito won't cross kill, hito will do what we tell him today, we'll have only one murder attempt on each target.

In the scenario that we give TNM the go ahead then it will work like this.

Seacore murders AV, AV first aids Seacore
Hito murders Andrius, Andrius first aids Hito
TNM murders VP, VP CANNOT REZ AND THIS IS A PROBLEM

The only way the first two can fail is if one of the members of a pair is scum. And then we'll have caught them for, at worst, a 1:1 trade.
The TNM murder VP situation is more problematic, because they can both be town, and an outside agent (ie cult) can fuck with it. Providing us with unreliable information.

So we need to decide whether we give TNM the go ahead, or we lynch TNM.

I currently feel we should lynch Plum and give TNM the go ahead. Worst case scenario VP dies of a ritual, and we can decide tomorrow, based on another night of information, whether to lynch TNM tomorrow or not. To kill VP the cult need to use their ritual, which they'd use anyway, so we're not really any worse off, we're just choosing their target for them.

[Seacore]

Vas, you're missing something

TNM

has already stalked VPB last night

also
Successful rez attempts do not tell you what kind of kill was prevented. So it does not confirm the supposed 'murderer'

If TNM's kill does not go through, even if somebody claims first aid and VP admits that he's bloody, we don't know whether it was ritual or murder, so TNM is not confirmed.

[Seacore]

Vas, it might have been a good claim for TNM to do that.

1) TNM was high on our lynch lists. It's why he was put in the position of being forced to stalk and murder

So a cult in that position needs to claim to stalk somebody that, for some reason or another, the 'murder' will not work on, because, obviously, they can't go through with the murder.

So, who can TNM claim to stalk?
Claiming to stalk somebody on the "please stalk" list is a bad move, because we'll say "yes, please kill them" even if it was Andrius or AV, TNM would be the person given the kill go ahead instead of one of the other stalkers. And then TNM would reveal that he can't murder, because he's cult.
So he has to claim somebody that either
a) we don't want him to kill or
b) a result can't be guaranteed on.

In VPB he's found both. VPB has a high town read from most of us, so we don't actually want him dead, but what's more, without a first aid kit, he can't guarantee a result. VPB can come up as ritualled to death tomorrow, and TNM can claim, "cult must have rezzed and ritualled him"

He is pretty much a perfect claim for a cultist is forced to 'stalk and murder'

[Seacore]

Yes Vas, he was. I can't find the exact spot (because I have trouble skimming from work due to the whole page not loading up) but both Benmage and TNM claim that it happened. AV and TNM were told to stalk somebody to prove that they could. I believe they were told at some stage to stalk Benmage, but clearly that didn't happen.


That being said, I'm pushing for giving TNM the go ahead because on the off chance that VPB shows up as murdered tomorrow, we have indeed confirmed TNM as town.

And in the far more likely event that VPB doesn't wash out as murdered, then we lynch TNM.

Because the other plan would be to lynch TNM today and lynch plum tomorrow. It's the same thing with less chance of town confirmation and with scum being able to ritual whoever they want instead of VPB.

Can I get a few agrees on this, and we can start actually getting on with the day.

[Seacore]

If we give TNM the go ahead, nobody should rez VPB.

If VPB is murdered tomorrow - TNM is town
If VPB is alive tomorrow, bloody, and there is a ritual kill somewhere else - TNM is town or both are cult
If VPB is alive tomorrow, bloody, and there is no ritual kill - Neither is confirmed, but VPB looks really town.
If VPB is alive tomorrow and not bloody - At least one of them is cult. The other is NOT confirmed.
If VPB is dead tomorrow from ritual - VPB is confirmed town (but dead), and TNM is not confirmed either way.

[Seacore]

VP will not be the one murdering Andrius, Hito will. So there will be no cross kill, just Hito

Preventing the rez gives us a better chance to understand what happened.

[Seacore]

Screw you AV, why do you have to be so god damn town now...

Anyway,

Night Actions

Plum - Dead

Andrius - Resus Hito
AurorusVox - Resus Seacore
hitorogoshi - Murder Andrius
Seacore - Murder Seacore
VP Baltar - Ward somebody, only useful action you can take
totallynotmafia - Murder VPB

Iecerint - Stalk somebody on stalk list
Triglav- Stalk somebody on stalk list
VasudeVa- Stalk somebody on stalk list
Nachomamma8 - Stalk somebody on stalk list

Nicodemus - Launder

Benmage - Grave rob Plum, something else
Feysal - Something else
kunkstar7 - Something else
Trilobite - Something else
xvart - Something else

[Seacore]

Best case scenario, we start tomorrow with

Confirmed x 4
hitorogoshi
Seacore
totallynotmafia
xvart

Pretty much confirmed x2
Benmage
Nicodemus

A pool of others to hunt scum from x 7
Feysal
Iecerint
kunkstar7
Nachomamma8
Triglav
Trilobite
VasudeVa

[Seacore]

Vas can prove himself to be town with a stalk and murder, just like everybody else.

[Seacore]

Not cool. If you're not in a game, don't fucking post in it.

[Seacore]

Trilo, we'll kill Plum when we're ready, but as usual we want to get the night's actions organised.

Somebody spoke about rewriting the allowed/banned insanity instructions. We also need to update the stalk target list.

[Seacore]

Andrius,

Nico is the only player who claimed to have rez'd me.

That is what Trilo is asking, since you have Nico on your scum list, do you cult ritualled and rez'd me?

[Seacore]

Also, Cult cannot target themselves with ritual, as they are unable to craft fetishes of cultists.

[Seacore]

One of three things is possible

1. Nico and I are both cult, faked everything, decided to skip the Ritual for either deception or protection and spent the night doing other stuff

2) Nico is cult and the cult deliberately wasted their ritual in an attempt to confirm Nico as town

3) Nico is town and the cult tried and failed to kill me.

Personally, I think 3 is true, because they deliberately crafted two fetishes of me, passed one to me in an attempt to trick me into thinking I couldn't be ritualled last night (which worked, I was almost certain I couldn't be) So to do all that, 2) seems far fetched.

[Seacore]

Hito, what do you think of my current action plan?

[Seacore]

My draft stalk list

Nicodemus
Benmage
Feysal
kunkstar7
Trilobite
xvart

xvart and Benmage are on there a) to beef up the list and b) because they need to die prior to end game, which is approaching faster the more we kill.

In the worst case scenario, if all the kill go through and none of them come up cult

Then 5 of these 7 people are cult. Not so bad.
Feysal
Iecerint
kunkstar7
Nachomamma8
Triglav
Trilobite
VasudeVa

[Seacore]

Testing me will silence the critics, and I've got too many insanities to stalk again, I think that's the general consensus

[Seacore]

I've added Benmage to my list of stalkees

[Seacore]

Triglave is on the stalker list

Trilo is on the stalkee list

These are just my draft lists.

[Seacore]

Okay, while we're not quite running out of time, we're definitely running out of excess time.

Some stage today I'm going to do a Hito style end of day post, then we can kill off Plum.
People have roughly 6 hours to disagree with this before it starts to happen.

[Seacore]

Benmage, I don't think we should assign "everybody" something. Have a look at my draft of what people should do. It leaves about 5 people to do whatever they want, but those people are on the stalkee list.

[Seacore]

Reposting it, slightly clearer, for Benmage's consideration (and for other people's as well) I've also made a slight change.

Night Actions

Resucitate

Andrius -> Hito
AurorusVox -> Seacore

Murder

hitorogoshi -> Andrius
Seacore -> AurorusVox
totallynotmafia -> VPB

Ward

VP Baltar -> Somebody not on the stalkee list

Stalk

Iecerint
Triglav
VasudaVa
Feysal

Launder

Nicodemus

Graverob Plum

Benmage + something else

Something Else

Nachomamma8
kunkstar7
Trilobite
xvart

Allowed Stalk Targets

- These players should not be warded
Benmage
Nachomamma8
kunkstar7
Trilobite
xvart

[Seacore]

I agree, I've always thought testing suicidal today would be too cumbersome today. That's really true now.
If all the kills go well we'll be down to 12 and we can test suicidal with 6 players.

[Seacore]

Ah, see... whereas I view nopoint/nacho as fair scummier than feysal.

I don't think stalkers should be able to be stalked and vice versa. Keeps it simpler.

I don't think we should put ourselves in this TNM situation again by having scummier people allowed to stalk. It doesn't really clear things up for us, it just creates a cluster fuck that means we have to let TNM kill VPB.

[Seacore]

Yeah, but 'we' still encouraged AV and TNM (two of our collective scumreads) two stalk/murder as a way of clearing themselves.

From now on we must
a) uphold the stalkee list by pain of death
b) no longer encourage scum reads to stalk/murder to clear themselves.

But I completely agree with you RE your hopes and concerns around TNM v VPB

[Seacore]

Benmage has pretty much agreed to my list. Hito or Feysal, do you want to post one of your official night threads, and then we can correct the Plum problem

[Seacore]

Aussies who exist outside Australia are different to Aussies within the country.

But yes, Percy is different and awesome from most of them. Despite the fact that many people couldn't tell us apart for a year or so...

[Seacore]

That's why Nacho is on my stalkee list rather than my stalker list.

[Seacore]

Trilo definitely isn't obvscum, but I'm still heavily suspicious. Particularly with his posting today, he seemed really resistant to what I saw as some obvious conclusions.

[Seacore]

No actually, that's his one towny point today.

The case is frustrating to me, because I can see where it looks scummy and can't really explain my way out of it. But there's nothing scummy about the case.
Of course, if Iec should at some point flip scum, it does become a slight scum tell.

[Seacore]

We're waiting for three things

Benmage to post
Nacho to post
Someone to post the end of day post

[Seacore]

Benmage was gonna post something, it's been a while though

[Seacore]

Okay, lets go with my last instruction post, and hito's last insanity post.

vote Plum

[Seacore]

While Hito has provided good assistance for people who are able to choose what they're doing, most people don't have the choice. Please follow these directions.

Night Actions

Resucitate

Andrius -> Hito
AurorusVox -> Seacore

Murder

hitorogoshi -> Andrius
Seacore -> AurorusVox
totallynotmafia -> VPB

Ward

VP Baltar -> Somebody not on the stalkee list

Stalk

Iecerint
Triglav
VasudaVa
Feysal

Launder

Nicodemus

Graverob Plum

Benmage + something else

Something Else

Nachomamma8
kunkstar7
Trilobite
xvart

Allowed Stalk Targets

- These players should not be warded
Benmage
Nachomamma8
kunkstar7
Trilobite
xvart

[Seacore]

@Seacore: That list has been fully weaved into the Reference as "X must Y" lines.

Ah, I see it now, still,I think it could get lost, now there's no excuse.

[Seacore]

He's on the stalkee list, perchance he'll be dealt with that way.

[Seacore]

We definitely want to ban off list stalks.

And the list is not too small.

Even if we assume we're wrong about plum, and therefore we'll have 5 cultists alive tonight, that gives them 5 actions. If they want to spend all 5 actions warding everybody on my list (or everybody except one on hito's list) then let them.
Two of the had to ritual last night, so that means they either launder, meaning they're down to 3 wards, or two of them are open to investigation.

If we're right about plum, then that's even better. If we're right about Plum and she wasn't one of the ritualers last night, even even better., etc.

Can we get a hammer now?

[Seacore]

CD7

Username:

Seacore

Did you Hear Noise?

Yes, but I have hallucination

Did you Ward? If so, who?

No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

Yes, I stabbed AV in the back of his now seemingly towny head

List all of the insanities you currently have:

Twitchy Solist Obsession Taboo: Investigate Hallucination Mutilation Compulsion

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result?

No

Are you bloody?

Yes

Did you Stalk? If so, on who, and was it successful?

No

Twitch?

*twitch*

Vote: Seacore

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote

Woohoo! Confirmed bitches!
Also Crazy as Batshit!

God damn Plum being an investigator, I'm sick of town being useless and scummy.

So, we should discuss the failed murders and then discuss the stalks.

Hito failed to kill Andrius. Given that we know hito was an investigator, that means that Andrius was rezzed by scum. It would be smart to kill andrius.
TNM failed to kill VP Baltar, this is obviously less straight forward since both, neither or either one could be scum.
I vote to add TNM to the stalk list and lynch andrius, but more discussion is necessary.

[Seacore]

You did that voting right Iec.

We'll discuss testing suicidal soon. But we should discuss the murders and stalks first.

Oh, and I just realised, Andrius was instructed to first aid somebody else, the fact that he was rezzed by somebody else proves that he didn't, and thus he is scum.

[Seacore]

Benmage, do the proper cell post, like everybody else.

[Seacore]

Ritual is a free action Iec

[Seacore]

Claim your last night's action? Definitely

[Seacore]

I agree with Triglav on that last lynch order. Nico is someone who can now be investigated through stalk/murder planning, now that we've forced him to launder.

Anybody keeping a score on claims? How many do we have left? Because I've got some numbers I want to play with.

[Seacore]

I don't know Trilo, I think we're in a really good position right now. We can only lynch one person a day. Our open stalk lists followed by planned murders are how we were able to confirm one town and one scum. I think that's a good night's work.

But we have no successful stalks from last night, as yet, so that's a pain, but not a huge one, we can just organise again today.

[Seacore]

Unless VPB is also cult. But we can cross that bridge when we come to it and for the moment it's healthy to assume TNM is town and that VPB is unconfirmed.

[Seacore]

I think we should lynch andrius and test suicidal tomorrow.

1) Suicidal is slightly risky, there's always the chance we mislynch somebody (it's low, and it means people are being stupid or openly scummy but still)
2) We already have a good lynch today, best case scenario is that testing can give us another one.
3) We still have a shit load of people and testing it is still cumbersome

3 alone wouldn't discourage me, but when there's no concrete gain to it, I think we should wait.

[Seacore]

Nacho needs to be killed.

[Seacore]

Other people need to start playing this game.
Anyway, my current lists.

Confirmed town

(well, town + confirmed investigator)
Seacore
xvart

Town

Benmage
totallynotmafia

Town Reads

Feysal
VP Baltar
Triglav
Nicodemus

Maybe Scum, but I'm trying to pick 5

Trilobite

Scum

Iecerint
VasudeVa
Nachomamma8
kunkstar7

Confirmed Scum

Andrius

[Seacore]

The Feysal town read isn't strong, I'll give you that. And I just recently did a look back over his posts, and there aren't even that many.

However, he Rezzed's Wicked on N1, as did NoPoint. I doubt both are scum and I think NoPoint/Nacho is our scum in this pair. He's also been pro-town. Helping look through our night plans and offering strong advice.

Triglav is an even weaker town read. He's just struck me as town all game.

I figured that now I'm confirmed I might as well just let my accusations fly fast and free, since people can't really question my motivations, only my evidence (and I admit, much in that is lacking)

But basically, if we start at the bottom of my list and lynch upwards, I think that's a town win. And we don't even need to do that, because we have other info gathering skills.

[Seacore]

Also, it's noted that you didn't ask me to define my case on you and instead questioned other reads.

I think you're scum trying to not look defensive but still weaken my list.

[Seacore]

That's already Andrius, we're going to cure that and give you a nice big hug soon.

Around the neck.

With this piece of rope.

[Seacore]

Don't cry. The three scum buddies you just listed will be keeping you company soon.

While Yithmagog perverts your souls for the next 3 eons.

[Seacore]

Draft Night actions

Seacore - Launder
xvart - Grave rob Hito and AV
Benmage - Grave rob Andrius + other action

totallynotmafia stalk from stalk list
Feysal stalk from stalk list
VP Baltar stalk from stalk list
Triglav stalk from stalk list
Nicodemus stalk from stalk list


Trilobite - obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
Iecerint obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
VasudeVa obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
Nachomamma8 obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
kunkstar7 obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not

Stalk List - These players are not to be warded
Trilobite
Iecerint
VasudeVa
Nachomamma8
kunkstar7
Benmage

Due to all the outguessing, I'd be happy if people would roll a dice to determine who they stalk, all of the players I've listed could do with some murdering.

[Seacore]

Tomorrow's insanity checking.

Tomorrow I will be an absolute ogre about checking the voting insanities.
The three insanities we check in our daily CD posts MUST be done correctly. None of this copy from the last person bullshit that's been happening.
You vote for yourself first. Then benmage, then xvart, then benmage, then xvart. I've noticed a couple of people voting for somebody else first, which circumvents the Paranoid checking. So, if I catch you doing it Day 8, I'm going to be a dick about it. If I die, somebody else had best be a dick about it in my place.

Suicidal testing, assuming we have a successful ritual and no murders tonight, will involve 12 living players. That means 6 votes will be needed to bring a player to L-1.

Prior to the suicidal testing, we need to determine a draft night action plan, to at the very least cover grave robbing, but also potentially to cover possible murder plans and anything else we deem necessary. This will make an accidental or scum hammer, or the discovery that somebody has suicidal (and thus hammers them) less catastrophic.

Once a draft night plan is ready, we will test suicidal in this order.

Nacho
kunkstar
VasudeVa
Iecerint
Trilobite
Triglav
vp Baltar
Feysal
Nicodemus
TNM

Xvart and Benmage will not be tested as they have claimed suicidal
I will not be tested because I'm cleared as a cultist. (And there aren't enough murders to worry about me going murderer)

The testing team will be

Seacore
Iecrint
Feysal
Benmage
VP Baltar
TNM

I've chosen these people based (off the top of my head) on people that are around more than other people. I have not taken into account who is scummy and who isn't.
If somebody screws with our testing it will be really obvious and treated as a scum claim, regardless of what the dead person flips.

In CD8, I want a line that says that a) you understand that you will be voting in the suicidal test or b) you understand that you will NOT be voting in the suicidal test, as appropriate.

Scum have clearly been using "confusion" as an excuse to claim stupid things. Go back and look at Andrius's night claims, We can assume all of that communing bullshit was ritualling. But at the same time, confusion is genuine too, look at DGB. But we're no long going to accept confusion or absence as an excuse.

Nacho, if you can't commit to this game, replace out, if you cower again, you will be lynched.
Everybody - if you can't commit to this game, and commit to our plans, replace out or you will be lynched.

[Seacore]

Iecrint, you may not stalk. You are now on the stalkee list. You will do something else useful and await death from the shadows.

Trilo, you are correct on the TNM front, good catch. Next time I post the list I'll change TNM to doing something else.

You should probably use the res kit, there's always the chance that you negate the ritual. Avoid using the res kit on anybody that was on the stalk list last night, there's always the chance that one of our stalkers is lying about their target and who they blocked. They shouldn't, but there's always a chance.

Now, about the kunk graverob.
Why? Scum probably have a good idea about whether there are any items on those bodies, I imagine they're finding it easier to keep track of items than we are, so if they know that either of the graverob targets are empty, scum-kunk will be unlikely to rob it. Meanwhile town-kunk is getting a double insanity and xvart is being robbed of items.

Actually xvart has solist, as does benmage, neither will know if kunk has grave robbed... I think.

[Seacore]

xvart being graverobber is good because it discourages him from trying to go murderer if he thinks town is going south.
Benmage is forced to rob. So lets leave it at that.

Iec, if you successfully stalk and also get stalked, it'll get awkward and we run the risk of you killing somebody to prove yourself town, while getting killed yourself, so that's potentially a double town loss (if you and your target are town) with a single confirmation, not good. Do something else helpful to town like pick up a resus kit.

Also, in regards to the CD tests, I've totally exaggerated in my head TNM did it today and VP Baltar did it the Day before. I thin it maybe happened more in earlier days, but we've killed off some useless players since then.

[Seacore]

That's cool. Just use whatever kit you have. I don't even think you have so many insanities that communing would be terribad. If it is, then search for something else.

[Seacore]

On Nacho's Nico comments.

Yes, it's convenient that Nico ressed me, someone who would only be in danger if the cult had crafted two fetishes of me, and then passed me one to make me look out of danger.

On the flip side of that. That means that cult took two fetishes of me, gave me one, then killed me and had one of their cultists rez me. That's 4 actions to make one perosn look town and waste a kill.

So I think it's a null tell personally.

[Seacore]

Vote Andrius

Go with my plan tonight, this game is taking too long without people contributing.

[Seacore]

Night Action Plan - Failure to follow this plan is a scum claim

Seacore - Launder
xvart - Grave rob Hito and AV
Benmage - Grave rob Andrius + other action

Feysal stalk from stalk list
VP Baltar stalk from stalk list
Triglav stalk from stalk list
Nicodemus stalk from stalk list

totallynotmafia - obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
Trilobite - obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
Iecerint obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
VasudeVa obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
Nachomamma8 obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not
kunkstar7 obtain resus kit if possible, do something else if not

Stalk List - These players are not to be warded
Trilobite
Iecerint
VasudeVa
Nachomamma8
kunkstar7
Benmage

Due to all the outguessing, I'd be happy if people would roll a dice to determine who they stalk, all of the players I've listed could do with some murdering.

[Seacore]

I chose the "Testers" based on who I see posting. I'm not so worried about who I trust, since we'll only need 6 at most to do the testing, maybe even less. If somebody screws it up, we'll have caught scum.

Feysal, please vote for Andrius now.
Other people, please vote for Andrius now.

[Seacore]

Also, not to scare scum out of claiming or anything, but whoever rezzed VP IS scum. Town were told not to Rez him. Rezzing VP provided 0 information to town.

If some town did indeed rez VP, they should stay silent, because I'll lynch them. I'll also give them a good yelling in post game.

Andrius, go ahead, scum don't benefit from a prolonged day any more than town do.

[Seacore]

Ah, sorry, I misread your post. I didn't see the 'not'.

I also have no problem with you NOT voting yourself

[Seacore]

I see you online Nacho, I expect a vote in here soon.

[Seacore]

Posting about how we've found obv scum, have organised an effective night plan and are ready to end the day?

[Seacore]

No, VP is stalking.
Stalker list and stalkee list are mutually exclusive.

If VP doesn't successfully stalk tonight, and by successful I mean be the only one to claim a successful stalk on a person, we can discuss whether he moves lists.

[Seacore]

Sigh, you shit me Ben,

For days I've been trying to discuss the plan and you've been nowhere. There are reasons I don't want the stalkers and stalkees muddled up and you've gone and messed that up.

Fine, go with Benmage's additions. I'm not going to confuse it further by arguing.

If the graverob gets botched because xvart doesn't check back in, it's your fault Ben.

[Seacore]

Fine, at a glance I thought you'd completely switched.

What do you mean the deadline has 2 weeks?

[Seacore]

It's not like the murder-confirm plan was designed ignoring the risk of murderers.
It was clear at that point of the game that scum were a bigger threat than murderers. The likelihood of murderers being around were low. Xvart took responsibility for the only unexplained kill, so all we had to do was watch him like a hawk. At a certain stage, it would have been smart to murder him to confirm somebody else, but the risk was significantly lower.

I think the scum's biggest advantage was their ability to explain away things by saying "oh, I just didn't understand the rules" because there were enough town people actually doing that. I'm surprised town survived all the crap it had and I'm glad we won.
Fate screwed us over with his RC claim when he should have PM'd the mod and caused a double replace out rather than a double modkill.
Furc was his usual raving self.
And DGB-hydra and Plum's lack of engagement with the game caused some bad lynches.
I heard people in the Graveyard QT saying "why aren't you guys scum hunting, you shouldn't be doing murder confirmations, you should be using scum hunting skills"
That was severely limited in this game because so many people could just say "Oh, I don't understand this," and then lurkfest.
The murder confirmations placed the power into the hands of players who were engaged and understood the rules.

[Seacore]

I'm not saying they were easy, and I'm not saying we got them right every time. But there was definitely a lack of engagement in even trying to understand them from several slots. And it's not like this was the first SA game.
Some people decided, despite not understanding the rules, to ignore the advice of those who did. This allowed scum to hide, in my opinion, and also wasted our time mislynching some of them.

[Seacore]

There will always be a difficulty in balancing a game in which (some) players are allowed to choose their win condition.

The game starts with only town and cultists. As it currently stands, cultists are weak unless there are murderers. But therefore it makes less sense to become a murderer because town has a strong chance of winning.
If you increase the cult's chance of winning, then it makes more sense to be a murderer, increasing the chance of cult winning even further and boning town.

You almost NEED people to 'strictly' Play to Win and go murdering when it's less opportune. Which almost happened here except one was caught early and one was unlucky in his stalk choices.

Also, Magua, what is this "Seacore" machine you speak of? the murder/confirm were more Benmage than me if I remember correctly.

[Seacore]

I think cultists need to be able to murder, but not go murderer.
"Oh no, that'll horribly destroy the game"
Not when their insanities go through the roof and they are always covered in blood. Investigation kits and occult books would get way more use if that was possible. It would force town to play a much more defensive and information seeking game than the offensive game we played.

[Seacore]

So you were town that lied?
Or you were planning on heading murderer?

[Seacore]

I'm a bit out of contact with him since I moved, but I'll look into it and see how he's doing.

[Seacore]

I'm like 80% sure Percy isn't an elder god.

[Seacore]

Haven't been able to contact Percy, but through the grapevine he's doing well, just busy as all hell. Assuming hell is busy... who knows, it might be stagnant, in which case he's much busier than hell.

[Seacore]

You mean the Lolmodkill where you used information obtained outside the game to make in game decisions?

[Seacore]

So, I saw Percy tonight. He says hello and also says that he's scared of losing six hours a day in mafiascum while he's studying.

But just as a teaser, he has been dreaming up ideas for SA IV.