Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice


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Post Post #8 (isolation #0) » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:46 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

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Post Post #29 (isolation #1) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:44 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

penpen wrote:lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha
Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.
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Post Post #43 (isolation #2) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:19 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

AGar wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
penpen wrote:lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha
Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.
Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.
penpen's post is the most suspicious thing in the game so far. I don't think townies will often fail to random vote without giving some kind of reason. It does depend on how he plays, but I'm not familiar with the player so I'm taking initiative.

1) Mountain GMT - 7
2) I've only ever played here. About 20 games, I think. I haven't played in years, though.
3) It depends. I do tend to post quite a bit.
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Post Post #65 (isolation #3) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:10 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

penpen wrote:
Erratus Apathos wrote:I like the way NE took initiative.
who cares about initiative when its bullshit.

As you can see here that agar brought this to light:
AGar wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
penpen wrote:lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha
Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.
Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.
AGar didn't explain the nature of the "false-logic" he spoke of, and neither have you.
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Post Post #90 (isolation #4) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:36 pm

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AGar wrote:The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.
You still haven't explained what is wrong with my reasoning, and you haven't addressed my later clarification post on the subject, so I'll clarify it again: scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting. This read depends on his playstyle. What is wrong with this logic?

Very disappointed that penpen is replaced. His recent posting increased my suspicion. His posting was very active-lurky. My vote isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm not seeing Erratus Apathos as scum at all at the moment.
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Post Post #129 (isolation #5) » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:09 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

Ythan wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting. This read depends on his playstyle. What is wrong with this logic?
I doubt that it's true and there is no evidence to persuade me. It is admittedly unreliable if it admittedly depends on style. That's two answers.
I can't really argue with your first point. If you disagree, you disagree. I disagree with the second point, though. I think some scumtells depend on playstyle, and not random voting and not explaining it looked to me like an attempt to avoid attention, which he did later. Basically, the whole thing is about risk avoidance. He could have been worried that random voting could give something away, and trying to manufacture anther reason for not random voting would attract attention. Even genuine reasons do that. Based on that initial post, I was looking to see if he would continue to try to avoid attention.
AGar wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
AGar wrote:The false-logic isn't that the post has no content. The false-logic is "usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason" and using that as backing for a vote.
You still haven't explained what is wrong with my reasoning, and you haven't addressed my later clarification post on the subject, so I'll clarify it again: scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting.
What's wrong with your reasoning?

It's fucking moonbeams, that's what.
Oh, well, that explains it. :roll:

Not too sure on Budja at the moment. I'll keep an eye on him, but I'm moving on for now. UNVOTE: Budja

As others have already posted, there are probably scum on EA's wagon. I'll have to reread and see who I think the scum are.
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Post Post #181 (isolation #6) » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:08 pm

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Erratus Apathos wrote:@Necessary: In 90 you said this:
Necessary Evil wrote:Very disappointed that penpen is replaced. His recent posting increased my suspicion. His posting was very active-lurky. My vote isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
then in your next post, 129, you said this:
Necessary Evil wrote:Not too sure on Budja at the moment. I'll keep an eye on him, but I'm moving on for now. UNVOTE: Budja
What made you change your mind?

@Fatso, Klazam: can you two, like, actually get some opinions?
I understood what he said about EA and I can definitely see that coming from a town player. I don't want to go into too much detail about it because I don't want to make his defense for him. I have an even read at the moment and I don't think leaving my vote on him will accomplish anything.
ICEninja wrote:Budja, you never actually stated why you voted plague. You talked about Erratus the entire post, and voted plague without comment. Why did you vote plague? Is the the scummiest player right now? Who are you suspicious of otherwise?
I was going to ask this and I forgot about it. Especially after my reread, an unexplained vote on theplague at the time was pretty damn opportunistic.

My reread today wasn't very productive. Nobody on the EA wagon really stuck out. Well, mozamis is the worst, but I don't think he is scum just yet. The complaints about EA's attitude and two FoSs are pure bullshit. theplague's crap about innocent people not defending themselves is just stupid. (I mean, if you're in trouble with the law and you don't get a lawyer, you're retarded, innocent or not.) And, again, I don't think theplague is scum. I can see most of the other stuff coming from town players. I'm going to do more reading tomorrow. Right now, we need the lurkier players to post more, especially fatso and Klazam. Especially especially Klazam, who has posted no content other than a miller claim.
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Post Post #208 (isolation #7) » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:48 am

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AGar wrote:EA, NE, & Ythan: None of you three are voting. Ythan's at least putting effort into this, and prodding. I want to know if forced to vote now who you'd vote for. There's been enough in this game that you shouldn't be avoiding a vote at this point in time.
You're right. I was focusing too much on penpen and now I'm not sure who to vote for at all. I'll try to have a vote up some time tonight.
Space Pope wrote:Penpen- Fluff. Though he replaced out early, I'm not holding this too much against the slot.

Budja- Intro post is scummy. Takes the player who is at the forefront of attention, calls his actions that others find scummy, as town tells.

Vote: Budja
Please explain your reasoning on penpen. Also, why vote that slot over others? Since you suspect me, what makes Budja a better lynch?
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Post Post #212 (isolation #8) » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:14 pm

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VOTE: Klazam He's been absent throughout the game so far, and has only showed up after people started talking about him. fatso is about even with Klazam, IMO, but he is getting replaced, so he can wait.

mozamis is another good vote. He's kind of all over the place. I can't get much insight into what he is thinking. But, I don't know, I just can't label him as scum just yet. Still, I wouldn't mind lynching him today.

theplague is a purely opportunistic vote at this point. I was thinking before that he might be town and that hasn't changed. Space Pope looks ok for now, I need to see more from him.

I don't like a Budja vote so much now. His theplague vote was very opportunistic, but, like I said, I can see a townie using his reasoning. I need to see more explanation of his theplague vote before I can know for sure, though.

Is anybody still voting for EA? He's probably town. Move on.
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Post Post #234 (isolation #9) » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

Klazam wrote:Moz’s many straight posts was unnecessary. More scummy is the contradictions between posts as pointed out by ICE.
Klazam wrote:AGar- could you point out Moz's fencesitting? I dont see it.
Klazam wrote:Exilion- point out where moz is fencesitting. I do not see it.
Which is it?
Klazam wrote:NE: Oh boy. My third vote. What makes me a better vote than Moz? Your reasoning was because of my absence. Ok. In the same post, you say that Moz is being scummy . Yeah, you did not directly call Moz scummy, you just say that you wouldn’t mind lynching him, which implies his scumminess, even if you’re not sure. You’re leaving yourself wriggle room here. WHY IS THAT?
/End reread
He could be scum. His style makes him hard to read. Like I said, I can't really get a good idea of what he is thinking. I'm not totally convinced that he is scum, but he is scummy enough that he would be a good lynch today, a much better lynch than, say, Budja. He would be a compromise lynch for me.
Klazam wrote:Ok. Out of all the players, I would say that Moz, NE, or spacepope is scum. Out of these,
Moz and SP feel like too easy votes for me to make
, so i'll wait on that, but I find NE scummier, due to the reasoning above, so I’ll
vote NEvil
.
What exactly makes voting for the two others "too easy" and why does it matter?
Ythan wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:Is anybody still voting for EA? He's probably town. Move on.
He hasn't seemed scummy. I see no reason to think that he is town, though.
Maybe he isn't. I do have a town read on him, but it's not too strong.
Space Pope wrote:I don't like NE's recent vote. Voting someone for not posting, when they say they will by x and x hasn't came yet. Seems like an opportunistic vote.
He floated through the whole game up to recently with nothing other than a miller claim. He didn't show up until people started talking about absence. It's likely that he is scum who was purposefully lurking.
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Post Post #237 (isolation #10) » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:13 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

Klazam wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
Klazam wrote:Moz’s many straight posts was unnecessary. More scummy is the contradictions between posts as pointed out by ICE.
Klazam wrote:AGar- could you point out Moz's fencesitting? I dont see it.
Klazam wrote:Exilion- point out where moz is fencesitting. I do not see it.
Which is it?
I see contradictions, not fencesitting. Fencesitting is when you say X is scum, but X could be town too. Contradiction is when you say X is scum in one post and then you say X is town in the next.
Oh, well, if you want to split hairs... The difference is utterly meaningless. It's so small that it doesn't make sense for you to make such a big deal out of it.
Klazam wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
Klazam wrote:NE: Oh boy. My third vote. What makes me a better vote than Moz? Your reasoning was because of my absence. Ok. In the same post, you say that Moz is being scummy . Yeah, you did not directly call Moz scummy, you just say that you wouldn’t mind lynching him, which implies his scumminess, even if you’re not sure. You’re leaving yourself wriggle room here. WHY IS THAT?
/End reread
He could be scum. His style makes him hard to read. Like I said, I can't really get a good idea of what he is thinking. I'm not totally convinced that he is scum, but he is scummy enough that he would be a good lynch today, a much better lynch than, say, Budja. He would be a compromise lynch for me.
So Moz is lynchable for being hard to read? You did not answer my original question too. What makes me a better vote than Moz?
That's not what I said. He's lynchable because he is scummy. I'm not totally convinced he is scum because he is hard to read. You are a better vote than Moz because your actions were much more indicative of scumminess than his. You did something (lurking) that scum commonly do, and you didn't come back until people started talking about your absence.
Klazam wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
Space Pope wrote:I don't like NE's recent vote. Voting someone for not posting, when they say they will by x and x hasn't came yet. Seems like an opportunistic vote.
He floated through the whole game up to recently with nothing other than a miller claim. He didn't show up until people started talking about absence. It's likely that he is scum who was purposefully lurking.
I could have been lurking, or i could have been busy. I say that i'm busy. There is no way for you to know either way. Not a valid reason for a vote, i believe.
Yes, you could have been just busy. Your timing says something else. Also, your recent posting makes me think that you are scum. You're voting me because of a misinterpretation of my stance on Moz and you accused Exilon over a teeny, tiny difference between your opinion and his and because he's the
second vote
on Moz. Those both look like manufactured cases to me.
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Post Post #262 (isolation #11) » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:11 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

Ythan wrote:Contradiction and fencesitting are very much two different things. Where is the similarity in concept or application?
They are both similar in that both are attempts by scum to reduce thier risk by not taking a firm stance on a given issue. The difference is meaningless. I mean, look at Klazam's explanation:
Klazam wrote:I see contradictions, not fencesitting. Fencesitting is when you say X is scum, but X could be town too. Contradiction is when you say X is scum in one post and then you say X is town in the next.
The difference Klazam gave is a minor timing difference and he's using that minor, inconsequential difference to manufacture a case against Exilon.
RedCoyote wrote:Exilon is worse, but, yeah, there's no reason for those votes. They are both lame. Mae was reasonable, but Exilon and NE both came off like, "Yeah, I could vote a suspect, but I'd rather hide under the radar."
I did suspect Klazam at the time and I gave reasons for that suspicion. Is there something wrong with those reasons?
Space Pope wrote:6: He explains 4-5 to EA. Here he "forgot" to mention Budja's Plague vote, then claims no information from rereading the game (around the EA wagon that he thought was scum driven)
At the time, I was suspicous of theplague based on his interactions with EA, so I didn't find anything wrong with Budja's vote. After my reread, theplague looked a lot less suspicious, so the timing of Budja's vote looked a lot more opportunistic.
Shattered Viewpoint wrote:Also on my radar: Budja (although not so much since he's replacing out now), Ythan, and Klamazamam. Not so much Maemuki, but I'm watching you. :igmeou:
Please explain your suspect list. We don't have much content from you or the guy you replaced.
Exilon wrote:Maemuki, you've been lacking a bit on the insight/analysis department, parroting a bit, (no matter if you're conscious or not, the point is there isn't much original content) and a bit of gut. Basically, I feel you've been coasting a bit. It's not much but I did say you were JUST slightly scummy.
Maemuki didn't get my attention before, but this is all true (well, maybe not the gut part) and I can deffinitely see scum playing this way. I will be keeping an eye on her.

mozamis's recent posting makes me think he is playing this way on purpose. He didn't seem to have a problem commiting to a stance when he voted for EA. Now that his wagon is at L-2, I think we're due for a claim.
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Post Post #273 (isolation #12) » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:15 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

MOD: The votecount shows moz voting for himself and also not voting.
Until this is sorted out, a claim can wait. We've got lots of time anyway.

Fixed in the new votecount 1.8, next page

mozamis wrote:I voted for EA because it looked like he was setting himself up for future lurking. He explained his position. I accepted it. I unvoted him. Why are you trying to make that look scummy?
That's not what I said. In that situation, you were able to take a stand. Why can't you do that now? If you want us to lynch somebody else, you're going to have to give us a reason.
Erratus Apathos wrote:mozamis isn't acting like cowardly scum, he's acting like clueless town.

(I'm not saying "clueless" to insult him or anything, I say that because I believe he genuinely doesn't have a clue who scum is.)

The attitude he takes in 222 is an excellent example of this. He's fence-sitting, but he's not being a coward about it.
Yeah, this is why I'm not totally convinced that he is scum. But, especially lately, I'm thinking that he may be clueless scum. It's hard to tell the difference here. What's really nudging me towards the scum side is his insistance that he shouldn't have to take a stance on something like we all want him to.
Ythan wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:They are both similar in that both are attempts by scum to reduce thier risk by not taking a firm stance on a given issue. The difference is meaningless.
The difference is not meaningless, at all. They come from completely different places and have different meanings. To contradict something you said before and not to take a stand at all are entirely not the same thing.
Where are you going with this? Look, the whole reason I brought it up is because Klazam is using this theoretical difference to attack Exilon. His explanation is about timing. Why is he so hung up on that?
Last edited by lewarcher82 on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #323 (isolation #13) » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:48 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

Yesterday I kept my vote on Klazam because I thought his cases on myself and Exilon were manufactured. When he unvoted me, I think he may have been sincere, but I don't think that's the case when he unvoted Exilon:
Klazam wrote:
unvote


Sorry Exilon. I was going to reply, but then I did a ISO on you. Apparently my reading is fail. You did have an actual reason to vote Moz, not none like I originally thought.
Klazam voted for Exilon because Exilon was voting for moz based on what Klazam described as "crap reasoning" or "craplogic." I don't see how Klazam could have saw something new in Exilon's ISO since Exilon didn't say anything different about moz that would create that impression. (Hope that makes sense.) I think Klazam just gave up on the Exilon case and moved on.
Klazam wrote:Now, on to my suspicion: I ISO’d everyone. They all come off as feeling town to me, except for Ythan. Why? Because of his relation with Moz- He did not take a hard stance on the matter. It felt as though he pointed out minor scummy things from Moz and was not trying to do much of questioning or anything of Moz whatsoever. Ythan also subtly defended Moz, when he inexplicably joined into my discussion with exilion.
I personally think that the semantics that I was using was very stupid now.
I’m curious why he joined in.
This doesn't really make sense given what actually went down, especially the bold sentence. Maybe he is trying to cover for the poor reasoning given in the Exilon unvote.

VOTE: Klazam
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Post Post #393 (isolation #14) » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:50 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

I fully support a mass claim.
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Post Post #412 (isolation #15) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:32 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

I'm a doctor. I protected ICEninja both nights.

Maemuki goes next.
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Post Post #415 (isolation #16) » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:52 am

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Exilon wrote:WHY would you protect ICe both nights? this doesn't make sense.
It might not have been a great decision. Once there was no townie kill on the first night, it was clear to me that the scum probably wanted him dead so I protected him again. I didn't really know who else to protect. ICE was the most protown and the most productive. I definitely would not have protected either of the kills last night.
Maemuki wrote:I agree with Exilon - if you thought ICE was town, I sure never saw anything that indicated as such in your posts. Hell, you only mentioned him twice. (At least, that's what I remember.) However, this is probrably not a gambit...because we already have 2 dead scum. Having 4 scum seems a little overkill. ICE won't be the next to claim, however.
I don't see what announcing a town read on him does for the town besides help my claim.
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Post Post #432 (isolation #17) » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:02 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

Good kills from the vig and good investigations from the cop. This one should be in the bag. I'll hammer space pope tomorrow if there are no loose ends to tie up.
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Post Post #465 (isolation #18) » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:56 pm

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Damnit... I protected ICEninja again because he is a cop and I thought a cop is more valuable at this point than anybody else. I was thinking last night that it was stupid for scum to kill him or me because the scum should expect me to protect ICE again and killing me would just mean eliminating a scummier townie. I decided to leave it on ICE because a cop is more valuable. Sorry, guys, that wasn't very smart of me.

Ythan might be scum, but I think it's more likely that RedCoyote is a godfather. I'll look at them both and summarize my cases some time tonight.

preview edit: Actually, an Exilon kill points towards Ythan scum, doesn't it? If RedCoyote is a godfather, then killing Ythan might give him away. Anyway, I didn't expect the scum to kill Exilon at all. He could only perform one more vig kill without costing the town the game. Is there any other reason why the scum would kill Exilon?

Leaving Agar alive points towards a godfather, IMO. Since Agar showed innocent, that gives a godfather one more confirmed innocent to hide in.
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Post Post #468 (isolation #19) » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:23 pm

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Ythan, do you have some reason to think that ICE is lying about his claim?
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Post Post #469 (isolation #20) » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:28 pm

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ICEninja wrote:NE, considering scum already had a role blocker, I'm going to run with the assumption that scum doesn't have a Godfather. That being said, Red is definitely my pick for who is if Ythan is innocent.
A godfather seems unlikely with a scum roleblocker and a miller (I mean, two cop-fucking-with roles in a mini?), but I'd rather not second guess the mod. It probably doesn't matter because Ythan is looking pretty damn scummy right now.
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Post Post #471 (isolation #21) » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:50 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

I looked at RC and there really isn't much of a case to be made. I'm pretty sure that Ythan is the last scum. I would have a hard time choosing between him and AGar tomorrow.
Ythan wrote:No, but that is not going to keep me from responding to his posts. If they are absurb then it is not an accusation (of scumminess) to say so.

At this point it's just a matter of figure out who the godfather (probably) is, and there is no way that the game is going to progress to the point of reviewing cop
results
while I'm still the one un(pseudo)confirmed townie. However, comments such as NE's without reference to actual material are things I would look out for.
I'm shocked by this answer. It's totally inconsistent with your posting today. If you're a townie, there is no reason why you would sow doubt regarding ICE because that would be contrary to your win condition. In this post, you sow doubt about me when you've presented precisely zero reasons to doubt my claim. Throughout the game you've attacked small logical inconsistencies in people's posts in ways that suggest that you do not care about their alignment. Your hammer of Klazam doesn't really make sense when you defended him against my vote in the previous day.
VOTE: Ythan
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Post Post #474 (isolation #22) » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:49 pm

Post by Necessary Evil »

I'm pretty sure that the game is over, but in case it isn't, the kill tonight is really important. I don't want to go into details that might give away who I'm going to protect (besides, I'm not 100% sure on that myself). Unless the scum didn't kill on night one, I'm pretty sure that ICE is town. Like I said before, I would have a hard time picking RC over AGar. I looked over RC's ISO and there really isn't a case there. AGar has made a number of unsupported assertions and hasn't contributed a lot of content after the first day, and even late in the first day he didn't contribute a lot. The last scum isn't obvious. Keep an open mind and don't vote too soon.
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Post Post #497 (isolation #23) » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:19 am

Post by Necessary Evil »

Looking back over day 4 now, it's so obvious how bad my Ythan hammer was. I was certain there was a godfather, but I got distracted by how all over the place Ythan was with his suspicions on that day. It seemed to me that he was scrambling to avoid getting lynched. I could have at least waited over night and slept on it. My doc protections on days 2 and 3 were terrible, obviously. I could have waited on the penpen vote, and letting budja go when he gave no justification for the most convenient vote at the time was sloppy.

AGar played a good game and deserves the win. I had a town read on him most of the game, but I did second guess it several times. Then again, I had a town read on Ythan and second guessed it, too. I was thinking for sure that RC was the godfather not to far into day 5.

There should have been more discussion in day 3. And day 4, obviously. I have to take the blame for that.
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Post Post #507 (isolation #24) » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:25 pm

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AGar wrote:Holy fuck, I did it?

I DID IT! WHEEEEEE!

I thought I was so screwed going into D2. Then the mass-claim actually worked perfectly in my favor.

I'll post more later, but right now I need to sleep.
Alright. Sweet dreams, you bastard!

I don't think there was much we could have done. We just got outplayed. :(
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Post Post #511 (isolation #25) » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:50 pm

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Erratus Apathos wrote:The doc should have protected the vig instead of the cop after massclaim, the vig is a better role even if the godfather is NK-immune.

Oh well. Come from behind victories are always enjoyable, even when you're on the other side.
I thought I should have protected Ythan on night 3. I don't see vigs as all that valuable to town since they kill town players most of the time. How would a vig have been a threat to the mafia then?
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Post Post #515 (isolation #26) » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:36 pm

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Erratus Apathos wrote:
Necessary Evil wrote:
Erratus Apathos wrote:The doc should have protected the vig instead of the cop after massclaim, the vig is a better role even if the godfather is NK-immune.

Oh well. Come from behind victories are always enjoyable, even when you're on the other side.
I thought I should have protected Ythan on night 3. I don't see vigs as all that valuable to town since they kill town players most of the time. How would a vig have been a threat to the mafia then?
They kill suspicious town players, the ones you were going to lynch anyways. It's like having an extra lynch every night.
Yes, that's true. That's pretty much how I play a vig. Exilon's shots were practically perfect, so I probably should have valued him higher. I'm just saying that vig is a swingy role and can wreck the town pretty easily in the wrong hands. I'm still not getting why a vig was so detrimental to scum in that situation, though.
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Post Post #516 (isolation #27) » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:37 pm

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He can't even shoot on night 4.
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