Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[Ythan]

Confirm.

[Ythan]

So Ythan, you're scum this time, yes?

No. I am never scum.

VOTE: Ythan

Because you made it to LYLO as scum claiming cop in a newbie game, I hate you so.

Of all the reasons to attract an rvs hate vote I was surprised that it was something like this.

By end of page one I am considering an Erratus vote.

[Ythan]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Uncomfortable with this response. I see some more discussion. I'm not concerned with the lack of a reason for no vote, I just don't like this. It's early enough for gut.

1) What is your time zone? This is good to know in case we have some oversees players and we're waiting for a post from them.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? I like to know the experience levels from players, just in case there are any first timers mostly.
3) How often can we expect a post from you? Just for my personal reference, mostly.

1 EST.
2 Sufficient.
3 Hahaha.

Most of the random votes so far have been useless, save Erratus's. I don't like people who are voting for Erratus right now for being pro-town. That's mostly just AGar.

Vote AGar

.

For being pro-town?

Well You're not exactly helping us get out of RVS, either you know.

And neither are you. Wait, no, scratch that.
UNVOTE: Exilon
VOTE: penpen

A vote for something you're doing too?

[Ythan]

But seriously, the whole "I'm town, I'm town, I'm town... etc. thing was really annoying and rather scummy.

Explain. Not the annoying part.

[Ythan]

Trying to use semantics to build an early game bandwagon?

I don't agree with this. Erratus is correct about the meaning of omgus.

[Ythan]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

As I said, I don't like this post from penpen.

Well You're not exactly helping us get out of RVS, either you know.

And here he isn't doing anything but dragging down another player for no reason I can see while not contributing himself.

How does that help town in anyway?

I don't like this when he, again, is not doing anything himself. How can town suspect someone for not helping town when they're doing even less themselves?

As you can see here that agar brought this to light:

No analysis or even explanation for the Agar quote.

I know he replaced out of all of his games, not just this one, but I'm still curious; Were these his first games on site? So Budja comes in.

Erratus is stirring up reactions. He is guilty of some of the accusations thrown at him (eg. wagonhopping, exaggeration) but at this stage they are more town than scumtells.

I want more detail on which accusations are and are not valid and why they are towntells.

[Ythan]

Notice how Exilon calls Ythan scum but votes me. This makes perfect sense.

No, wait. It makes the exact opposite of that.

Was this serious?

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

Okay, then explain how NE is using false logic to say that penpen's post has no content.

I don't like that you specifically cast this as being about the lack of content. That was half of the post. The other half was obvious bad logic.

[Ythan]

@Ythan,Plague, anyone who said Erratus was vote-hopping, pushing weak cases, getting serious about trivial matters, spamming is correct.
But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

Did I say any of those things? No. Are scum tells town tells? No. I'm not saying those are scum tells but it looks like you're saying that acting scummy is townish.

[Ythan]

I like Ythan's points against the penpen slot, and he gets further town points for having a MM avatar.

It's actually OoT.

[Ythan]

If I ask you to elaborate that doesn't mean that whatever you say has to be perfect and beyond criticism. Especially when what you say is this.

But, the result of this has been to make him very noticeable and keep everyone on their toes => town tell.

This is the old "acting suspicious is a town tell" argument. And it's not true. And I know of no way to come to this conclusion from a town perspective.

[Ythan]

lol

Erratus, you are quite funny. hahaha

Look, ma! No content!

VOTE: penpen

Usually when people don't random vote they give some sort of reason. Not the case here.

Hey look at the scumscum trying to start a bandwagon with false-logic.

We've got two down! Easy-sauce.

Okay, then explain how NE is using false logic to say that penpen's post has no content.

I don't like that you specifically cast this as being about the lack of content. That was half of the post. The other half was obvious bad logic.[/quote]
I'd like a response to this.

[Ythan]

Why are you getting so worked up for? That doesn't bound well for you. I think he was probably trying to say that you vote-hopped excessively, hence "ultra-quick wagoning" (since you started wagoning, or attempted to). I can see your logic, though, and agree partly to it.

Do you have a problem with his reasoning? Because you shifted attention to his tone for some reason.

That's YOUR opinion, not HIS, and imposing yourself on him like that, while also accusing him of DISTORTING facts (not true) is bad.

What was he distorting exactly?

Fatso, you should read the wiki a bit. Not take it as granted, of course, but read it. Online mafia can be drastically different from offline mafia, specially in what concerns scumtells.

Telling him to read the wiki doesn't help. If you think there's something specific he needs to read you should tell him. Otherwise this looks like an active lurking line.

[Ythan]

I would barely call that worked up. It certainly should not be shifting attention away from the content of his posts.

[Ythan]

EA, I don't think you're being particularly unreasonable, but consider that some players are more likely to address your points if you keep calm. If you get excited it gives people something to talk about without really answering the content of your posts.

[Ythan]

Eh, I'm not sure about this one, so:

Unvote: Erratus Apathos

But seriously, the whole "I'm town, I'm town, I'm town... etc. thing was really annoying and rather scummy.

What's to be sure about? You placed the vote because he spammed.

No real opinion. I just voted for you because of the "I'm town" ordeal. Which, by the way, comes off as very scummy to me. Where I come from, scum use things like that all the time. It's sort of reverse psychology. Only scum would yell out "I'm town!" (generally), so scummy's use it to make people think "well only scum would do that, and scum know that, so even they wouldn't do that, so they must not be scum."
I just reread that, and I'm not sure if it made any sense, but I'm really tired, so I'll post it anyway.

Where do you come from? Wifombia? I don't buy it when someone takes wifom to a specific degree and uses it as an absolute to support a position. Your reasoning could come to the exact opposite conclusion just as easily. Maybe they'd think like you and say "People like Fatso consider this scummy so I would never do it as scum."

But seriously, I do really want to know where you're from if you're going to use foreign meta to support your position.

[Ythan]

This is over the top though. I don't see why town would get so worked up over this. Perhaps I was too hasty to hand out a town read.

Your town read was based on his logic. You drop it based on his tone. Dislike.

[Ythan]

Uh, moz? You're not exactly helping us get out of RVS, you know.

I don't think that most players were either, at that time, including yourself actually.

Could you please answer ICE's questions and try to get us out of it, pretty please?

RQS does nothing to end RVS.

Well, I guess that was the end of the RVS everybody.

Why this?

Also, you're the one who brought up penpen's sitewide replacements, and I asked afterward if anyone knows if these were his first games. Do you?

[Ythan]

anyone else find EA's answers a bit vague? covering his tracks for later scum lurking?

UNVOTE VOTE ERRATUS APPOTUS

This is more vague than anything he posted. Be specific.

[Ythan]

scum are more likely to fail to random vote and fail to give a reason for not random voting. This read depends on his playstyle. What is wrong with this logic?

I doubt that it's true and there is no evidence to persuade me. It is admittedly unreliable if it admittedly depends on style. That's two answers.

[Ythan]

Vote: EA (erratus apathos)

for ultra-quick wagoning and spamming FoS's.

I'm in the neither of these is true camp. I'm also in the it's not an opinion, it's an untrue fact camp.

Sound familiar? I'm not distorting facts. You directly said you wanted to start a bandwagon. Or are you just distorting facts?

Not exactly what you accused him of.

Generally, I believe that people who react like that are generally scum. It's the same as a guilty person calling a lawyer, while an innocent person shouldn't have to.

Untrue. To attack a player and then attack them again for defending is no good.

Just because you say that I was wrong doesn't make it true, no matter how much effort you put into it. I have a direct example for that, but it's an ongoing game that I'm dead in so I can't say anything about it.

Then you don't have an example.

[Ythan]

Penpen/Budja, Plague, maybe Evil. You are my top suspects. Answering questions better than your competitors will save you from my vote.

[Ythan]

@Ythan - I wasn't saying that he didn't know what OMGUS was. I was saying he was twisting the definition of it to the literal form to prove he wasn't casting an OMGUS vote. He basically said the minute you give any kind of reasoning, even shit reasoning, it's not OMGUS, ignoring the fact that half the time people put a reason onto an "OMGUS" vote that's weak and illogical just to avoid the accusation of OMGUS.

And you can call any reasoning on a vote weak and illogical to cast it as omgus, but if you don't explain why it's weak and illogical I'm going to take issue with it.

@mod
I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

You better explain away the points against you now, because if you're replacement can't he's going to have a much harder time climbing out of the whole you've dug him.

[Ythan]

I can see no good reason to accuse him of spamming them. I don't see it as a genuine interpretation, but as something scrounged together.

[Ythan]

Budja, you're killin me.

[Ythan]

Tell me how anything in this is more than just filler to cover an OMGUS vote. The problem isn't here, however. OMGUS is OMGUS. You and I both know that OMGUS isn't generally a tell at all.

Was looking for you to explain your stance.

He defends against the OMGUS accusation like he's being attacked by scum trying to wagon him to his DOOOOOOOOOOOOM and basically says "Nuh-uh, I had a reason, it's not OMGUS!"

This reads like you attacking him for defensiveness. And he was right about it not being omgus if we take his reasoning as genuine, and I see no reason to assume that it is not. It might not be, but it fits fine for me right now.

[Ythan]

Some of Mozamis' posts seem like useless fluff, and some others are just confusing. Most of Mozamis posts could/SHOULD be glued together. That would avoid some "oops, nevermind my last post, I just read the explanation", such as #145.

Can you specify which are fluff and which are just confusing?

Really?

Miller stance reversal is interesting.

Overall, Mozamis posting seems to be a bit of "lurk-avoid" kind of posting.

This I don't agree with.

[Ythan]

Oh really? The same face might be in both, then.

The character appears in both games but is featured much more prominently in the sequel.

When did I say I lost a town read based on tone? Saying that town has no reason to get worked up like this is logic. Or am I wrong? If I am, then attack my supporting points, not my conclusion.

Okay. The point is patently untrue. Blanket statements about who will and will not get emotional are ridiculous.

I feel like there's too much "black and white" opinions right now. Either people think something along the lines of "this is the way everyone thinks and behaves and this situation always means thing", or "no, each situation is completely different and unrelated". The truth of the matter is that true situations are somewhere in between. Each situation must be judged on its own merits, but similar situations bear connections.

You're the one who said town has no reason to act a certain way.

That being said, I think it is very silly to be stating such things. There should have been no need to defend having 2 FoSs in the first place, because it isn't a scum tell at all.

Then take issue with the player who started it.

[Ythan]

Thanks for the references, especially with links. Just looking for clarity and taking specific stances.

The miller reversal thing, I assume you're confused because I trimmed your quote way down. I mean that moz's reversal on whether miller claims should be analyzed is interesting.

And there is a better word for what she called you. It's cock muncher.

[Ythan]

Careful with the small text. Comically appropriate, but small enough that I barely saw it, almost hidden.

[Ythan]

But yeah, I've taken another look at theplague and I can see why he would make that case as town now so

Why the 180, or in your words, what made you change your mind?

[Ythan]

Ythan, I could be mistaken, but you haven't placed a vote yet. Who are you suspicious of? You call a lot of people out and make some good points and such, but I can't recall you ever really attacking anyone yet.

Are you getting votes and attacks mixed up? I think I'm being plenty aggressive, if not as aggressive as I usually am. Blame the good playerlist for that. And here's this

Penpen/Budja, Plague, maybe Evil. You are my top suspects. Answering questions better than your competitors will save you from my vote.

[Ythan]

@Ythan - I get where you're coming from. I guess I prefer to be less believing of some things than you.

I'd rather focus on the least believable, is all.

Goddamn flakes.

[Ythan]

EA, NE, & Ythan: None of you three are voting. Ythan's at least putting effort into this, and prodding. I want to know if forced to vote now who you'd vote for. There's been enough in this game that you shouldn't be avoiding a vote at this point in time.

Let's say Pope. Budja is second atm. Want to reread Klazam though, see how I feel about the growing wagon.

Is anybody still voting for EA? He's probably town. Move on.

He hasn't seemed scummy. I see no reason to think that he is town, though.

[Ythan]

and urging people to vote for me cos you don't like the way i post?
"Hey, i don't like that guys face, he must be a criminal".

Ew no. I might vote you.

[Ythan]

Contradiction and fencesitting are very much two different things. Where is the similarity in concept or application?

[Ythan]

could be town != too easy

[Ythan]

They both played horribly, which makes me feel compelled to vote for them, but it does not feel right to me, hence why i said its a easy vote.

That's all i could really say on the subject.

If you had just worded this differently it would be so much more believable. Anything that would compel you to vote for them should be, well, a compelling argument.

[Ythan]

Also on my radar: Budja (although not so much since he's replacing out now), Ythan, and Klamazamam. Not so much Maemuki, but I'm watching you.

You should provide reasons when you make posts like this so it looks like you're being genuine.

Peace and love

Lol. But seriously, this post is one of those scummy "evidence isn't good enough" nonsenses, I believe.

They are both similar in that both are attempts by scum to reduce thier risk by not taking a firm stance on a given issue. The difference is meaningless.

The difference is not meaningless, at all. They come from completely different places and have different meanings. To contradict something you said before and not to take a stand at all are entirely not the same thing.

[Ythan]

If you're going to argue bad logic in a game I'm going to press it until you stop.

[Ythan]

\Either you're unwilling to play towards a town win condition, or you don't have one to play towards. Judging by your post count, I'd say you've got the willingness to play to your win condition.

I see no reason to bring this up.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

[Ythan]

Done with midterms week. Since Moz is on the block I'll start my catchup with him.

[Ythan]

No, claims come if there is going to be a lynch. If only L-1 players want the lynch then L-1 isn't good enough.

[Ythan]

Hmm.

(new-ish player question) but if a person is at l-1, isnt it better to claim, in order to avoid losing any potentially useful powers?

Not if there isn't going to be a lynch. Which should not occur before a claim. Someone should announce their intent to hammer, then a claim is made. I'm reading you as more eager to get a claim than to settle this for town.

[Ythan]

This moz wagon has fallen in to place a bit easy for my taste.

Your priority should be to lynch scum.

[Ythan]

That a hammer?

[Ythan]

Such as? I think you're just playing it safe.

[Ythan]

Morning folks. I've been out of town the past two days or so, so, catching up.

[Ythan]

Well I was most suspicious of rat, for that obviously scummy hammer, but it looks like someone handled that. I had a case ready and everything. Looks like I'll have to go do more reading.

Since day 1 and night 1 went so ridiculously well, it might actually make sense to do a mass claim and just mop up. There should be no way town is losing this game.

I do not see town motivation for this.

There are 11 players here now. A scum died during the night. This means either there another killing role out there, or it’s a serial killer (or a redirector, but I’m discounting this because it means we pretty much already won here)

I do not know if it’s a good idea (due to my relative inexperience) but I think we could ask the vig to claim. If theres a claim, we know that there is only one scum left in the game. If not, we can safely infer a serial killer here, I believe.

Now, on to my suspicion: I ISO’d everyone. They all come off as feeling town to me, except for Ythan. Why? Because of his relation with Moz- He did not take a hard stance on the matter. It felt as though he pointed out minor scummy things from Moz and was not trying to do much of questioning or anything of Moz whatsoever. Ythan also subtly defended Moz, when he inexplicably joined into my discussion with exilion. I personally think that the semantics that I was using was very stupid now. I’m curious why he joined in. Also of note is this post. It doesn’t sit right with me.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

I believe that Ythan is the third scum here.

vote Ythan

Combination of vig-fishing and accusing me based on explaining what claims are for. Looks like he's about to be lynched, will read on.

[Ythan]

what's your rationale for wanting to lynch me?

I would like to ask Klazam this question myself.

[Ythan]

Now, on to my suspicion: I ISO’d everyone. They all come off as feeling town to me, except for Ythan. Why? Because of his relation with Moz- He did not take a hard stance on the matter. It felt as though he pointed out minor scummy things from Moz and was not trying to do much of questioning or anything of Moz whatsoever. Ythan also subtly defended Moz, when he inexplicably joined into my discussion with exilion. I personally think that the semantics that I was using was very stupid now. I’m curious why he joined in. Also of note is this post. It doesn’t sit right with me.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

I believe that Ythan is the third scum here.

vote Ythan

People seem to be waiting for me to weigh in before the hammer so here goes. The two parts of this case are the moz part and the Klazam doesn't know how the fuck claiming works part. The latter I don't think needs explanation, unless someone asks me. The former he says I didn't take a stance on moz and defended him. I don't get the purpose of the part about Exilon. If there is one he can explain. I don't think I was neglecting Moz, and I don't know why he thinks I was defending.

[Ythan]

Then I see no reason not to hammer you.

[Ythan]

vote Klazam

I hope you put out.

[Ythan]

You remembered this time.

[Ythan]

When you hang, keep blinking your eyes as long as you can. I have a theory.

[Ythan]

I don't know of a reason not to MC if everyone thinks that town has something to gain that outweighs outing every town PR.

[Ythan]

Analyze claims after all claims are through, please.

[Ythan]

And Coyote, grow some balls and pick someone. That looks bad.

[Ythan]

It looks like Pope would be next by Coyote's criterion but I'd like to push for him to actually take a stand and pick someone. I'm not liking his methodology. Town wants their top unclaimed suspect to claim next. He looks like he doesn't want to tie himself to anything.

[Ythan]

The point is that you're weaseling out of taking a stand. If, however, you cannot be made to do so, then I will claim as is suggested by the criterion you substitute for a read. Vanilla townie.

[Ythan]

Does that leave Ex and Ice? I'll say Ex.

[Ythan]

Still happy with a Pope wagon.

vote Space Pope

[Ythan]

I would say that the majority of my Pope suspicion actually comes from his predecessor.

Ice, I've played a game with a miller and no cop. I

think

it was in this same forum.

[Ythan]

A miller and a roleblocker. Why do you think newbies have roleblockers.

[Ythan]

By the way, miller isn't the only compelling pro-cop point. Claimed doctor claims to have protected claimed cop, no kill.

[Ythan]

Odds? Take the likelihood that the role will appear and divide that by the number of living players who might be lying.

Physically

possible? Sounds like weasel word. It is quite possible that the claimed vig in the otherwise town/mafia game is sk. Or that he is vig. Could go either way.

Oopsie?

In what way could Pope act that would not read scum to you?

[Ythan]

"Let's hope"? wtf is this shit

[Ythan]

Honors? Is that the hammer?

[Ythan]

Maemuki would be better.

[Ythan]

At this point in the game I assume any superstitious types will forgive me for commenting on the night action. Dead dubious-vig instead of dead cop or doctor who kind of confirm each other?

[Ythan]

You don't have to make things up, we have a plan that already involves my probable death as an unconfirmed.

[Ythan]

At this point in the game I assume any superstitious types will forgive me for commenting on the night action. Dead dubious-vig instead of dead cop or doctor who kind of confirm each other?

You do realize you're suggesting that this was a 4-scum game by that, right...

I'm not. I'm still comfortable with The Plan as our best chance. I just expected to see a different flip.

[Ythan]

This is not good. Before I get hammered can we think about who everyone wants to lynch tomorrow, accounting for any nk tonight? If you're convinced I'm scum you have nothing to lose by discussing tomorrow for a day or two.

[Ythan]

Ice, how is your post not "Suboptimal post (look town!) so you're scum" in more words?

[Ythan]

No, but that is not going to keep me from responding to his posts. If they are absurb then it is not an accusation (of scumminess) to say so.

At this point it's just a matter of figure out who the godfather (probably) is, and there is no way that the game is going to progress to the point of reviewing cop

results

while I'm still the one un(pseudo)confirmed townie. However, comments such as NE's without reference to actual material are things I would look out for.

[Ythan]

Nope. NE is continuing to misrepresent my position re: Ice. Make of that what you will. At least try to think about what you're going to do tomorrow when I flip, because someone in the game didn't want to think about it now.

[Ythan]

Also felt like Ythan was a bit more quiet and calm than usually, which, I have to say, raised some flags.

This game had a great lineup! Thanks everyone for a good one.

And good effort Coyote.

[Ythan]

To say that vigs in general usually kill townies is not compelling. Especially to a vig.

[Ythan]

In general, not accounting for the skill of the player who gets it, vig just ads a bit of randomness to the game and thus favors the weaker side. But a good vig should favor town.