Mini 1148 -- Spare Me Mafia (Game Over)

[Duplicity]

/Confirm.
For those currently unaware this account is a hydra with two heads, neither of us have ever used a hydra in the past therefore we apologise in advance for any strain this may place on the game. I will tag my posts with a R down the bottom of it and will convince my other head to tag his with a G. Now on to setup speculation, from what I can tell the only change to the setup rules was:

"A random anti-town player will be given free rein to secretly spare players of his choice until the threshold is met."

I don't see how this mechanic prevents mafia from sparing each other if anything it enhances their likelyhood of winning. Therefore there must be an alternative mechanic to prevent mafia from sparing each other until game end, any ideas as to what this may be? On top of that 'The QTs are all' implies more then one, multiple scum-allignments?
-R.

[Duplicity]

I actually agree with that chess.

It will help.

BUT REMEMBER WE DO THIS BY SPARING THEN WAITING FOR VC THEN UNVOTING. IF WE ARE ALL VOTING DAY ENDS. Or so I think it works.

The day ends when only one person has no one voting to spare them. So it's possible for everyone to vote but not have the day end. The soonest the day can end is when 12 people are voting. In either case, casting a vote between the last two 'unspared' players is like a reverse-hammer.

I honestly don't think voting every player is likely to reveal anything, however, R thinks chesskid is probably town for suggesting it regardless. I'm inclined to agree.

G.

preview edit: Are people seriously voting to spare at random? That doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[Duplicity]

Ultimately the only way to play this setup seems to be that as the day progresses each player keeps a list of players they don't/do want saved and we work from there. Above all else we have to avoid the day going to deadline becuase then it hands all power over to anti-town alligned roles meaning compromise of a lynch will be pivotal.

TheMask, the Conversions includement in the rules holds no meaning, he posted the same thing in this game which involved no conversion related roles.

R.

[Duplicity]

Given the situation being Umbrage wasn't given a role PM intially I'm going to assume the likelyhood that he's mafia is dropped significantly. I also do currently have a town-read on him and Chesskid, though I need to discuss this with my other head later.

Just a question for you all - How much experience have you had in forum mafia?
R.

[Duplicity]

Internet Stranger, there's obviously more than one anti-town alligned role in the game, therefore there's no reason to be complaining about having more than one player die at the end of the day phase. You're attemping to attack Chesskid for claiming a role he claims to be given, do you really not see the problem in that?

[Duplicity]

You're not exactly making sense InternetStranger, his claim states he needs an extra vote to survive therefore one less person gets a vote, that's basic logic and therefore shouldn't need to be something he would have to point out himself.

No one stated anything about it becoming a mass-claim style game, but those people who have very different roles actually need to claim in order to survive, thus what Chesskid seemed to have done. There's nothing scummy about it, there's nothing chaotic about it, you're merely misrepresenting the situation.

R. (Sorry I didn't tag my previous post).

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - I detest the idea of quote wars so I'm going to attempt to address your concerns in bullet points related to your paragraphs and quotes.
* The questioning of multiple QT's was due to the fact that I had taken a look at a few other games that RC had hosted and the inclusion and mention of it was something he hadn't done before, thus why I wanted speculation about it.

* It indeed was Fates post that sparked that thought process, the inclusion of multiple reads this early in the game is something that needs to be organized otherwise chaos ensues.

* I had spoken with G earlier about my town-read on Chesskid, though our conversation only revolved around his suggestion in post #7 whereas the reasoning behind wanting to talk with G had to do with Chesskids claim.

* The post has nothing to do with nor does it mention multiple scum factions, I'm attempting to point out having two people lynched if anything benefits us due to the fact there's more then one mafia.

* You've misread this entire situation, InternetStranger was attacking the idea of having to keep one less person safe rather then attacking the claim or Chesskid. In other words - InternetStrangers response towards the claim was not one of questioning and concern over whether it's real or not, it was one of concern over the repucussions over having two votes on one person thus what I was pointing out.

R.

Apokalyptika - You seem to misunderstand as well. The idea of having multiple people not saved and thus lynched if anything is something we would want. There's clearly more then one mafia, therefore multiple lynchings gives us a higher chance of lynching mafia. On top of that, it increases the ratio of Lynchees vs Nightkills which benefits us in the long run.

[Duplicity]

I see chesskid as likely scum here. Scum are powerful in this game - the voting mechanic is a lot easier for them to manipulate than the usual one - and so I'd expect that to be compensated with weaknesses. Someone who needs two votes to spare on the scumteam would be perfect here - it would also mean they can't just crossvote and save each other while he is alive.

If this were to be the case, when the player who needs two votes gets lynched, couldn't mafia still just spare each other to the win? On top of that, you claim that you yourself have no spare vote - Wouldn't that in itself be a counter to mafia sparing each other. That being mafia can't spare each other since one of them don't have a spare vote. Therefore you're attempting to push your suspicions of Chesskid for something you yourself are guilty of.

Whatever sparked the multiscum speculation, it's still scummy - even if it pops into your head, scum would be more likely to talk about it than town.

So you're saying - Noticing that the only difference between this game and past games that RC has hosted being that this one includes the suggestion of multiple quicktopics is scummy?

I'm all for this, we can let 3 people die if we want. Duplicity wants a fast moving death and chaos game (so does Chesskid actually), so let's give it to them. If for some reason we are really wrong (I doubt it, odds are good that at minimum 1 is scum), we can slow down the game tomorrow.

Never did I say I want a fast moving chaotic game, you're attempting to misrepresent what I've said it's blatantly obvious that you're doing so. I've stated there isn't that big a downside to having the possibilty of lynching two people in one day - Your reaction to Chesskids claim was a massive overreaction.

R.

[Duplicity]

Fishy, you've stated Chesskid should die soley due to his claim, therefore you do think that his claim is a strong enough scum-tell to have him lynched.
At the same time you recognize that your claim bears strong resemblence to his, if you expect us to believe or consider your claim and not hang you for it shouldn't your attitude be the same in regards to other similar claims.

Basic human instinct is to attempt to work out what you're up against, therefore the strive towards finding information is in no way a scum-tell nor a town-tell. Personally (I can't speak for G) I prefer to start of any given setup with discussion based around setup speculation, this is strengthened by paying close attention to the detail of the rules and mechanics in the setup to see if there is any indication of what we're playing - thus the noticing of 'QTs'.

R.

[Duplicity]

Fishy, I'm still not understanding your FoS on him based around his claim. Since you seem to still be of the opinion that his role claim is something put in place to prevent mafia from just cross-sparing lets speculate. Sridicilous. Assume Chesskid is mafia and gets lynched, what's preventing his partners from just cross-sparing in future days? The fact that his role claim doesn't prevent mafia from abusing game mechanics and winning via doing so means that it likely isn't what was put in place for prevention purposes. This means that the fact he claims to need two votes on him would be considered a null-tell to some degree.

Umbrage, you're essentially saying if he's town we want to save him if he's mafia he might be pulling a ploy so we don't, that's basic logic meaning and leads to no real conclusion. His claim means nothing unless you beleive it's entirely fake. So I'm just going to outright say this - Umbrage do you believe Chesskid and Fishys claims, yes or no?

Chesskid, I would say two, possibly three three lynches would be optimal, depending on the strength of the reads I have later today.

R.

[Duplicity]

Internet Stranger, I never stated that it would be the same pair voting each other to save. There is likely more then two mafia meaning they can switch it around to a degree that it would be hard to notice. Even if we were to notice it, apart from multiple vigs which make setups highly swingy there doesn't seem to be a way to counter it. Thus why I'm attempting to speculate about what hindrance RC put in place - That is after all what this entire discussion based around CK's claim is about.

You're attempting to put value on keeping someone alive - Look at it this way if you have two FoS's, would you prefer both of them lynched or one, the choice would be obvious. The more lynches that occurs throughout the day means the more chances we have of lynching mafia, think of it this way:
If we lynch one person per day and mafia shoot one person per night, ratio of town choices of who gets lynched to mafia choices would be 1:1.
If we lynched two people per day and mafia shoot one person per night, ratio of town choices of who gets lynched to mafia choices would be 2:1.

Umbrage, I completly agree questioning things is perfectly fine and pro-town, I have no issue with that whatsoever, that's not exactly what people are doing though. People are stating intent to lynch someone based on their claim without discussion revolving around it.

R.

[Duplicity]

I'm going to take a step away after this post because I don't want to say anything that could get me mod-killed.

IS, You're attempting to say that two people dying today is an issue. It's not. Him stating two people need to die as his claim states is a null-tell as pointed out by stating how it doesn't prevent mafia sparing each others mechanic. Chesskids role doesn't prevent mafia from cross-sparing unless you think there's only two mafia. If anything it's Fishys role-claim that has a bigger chance of breaking the cross-sparing tactic meaning if you're voting purely due to claims you'd be attacking him, however you're not even taking any notice to it. In a setup this size, I would expect three, maybe a small chance at four mafia.

Umbrage, I'm stating Chesskids claim was instantly attacked rather then questioned. Reference post numbers 51, 59 and 63. Nowhere did I state IS specifically, although I think his logic and reasoning is [Redacted], I do have a slight town read on him.

IS, discussion is good, attacking soley due to a claim is not. Perhaps re-read the last 20 posts and you'll change your mind about what has/is occuring.

Fishy, you're attempting to compare apples to oranges. RC states there's no way that end-game can be broken, this means that regardless of what happens we should always have a legitimate chance of winning. If you believe that Chess's claim is one to weaken the mafia, what do you speculate that others may be.

R.

[Duplicity]

Good point. Then again, isn't it possible that scum having no vote is another way to balance this?

Yes, but no one has questioned Fishys claim.

Also: Why the hell are people saying that there are likely two scum teams? Duplicity's been doing this a lot, is he crazy or have I missed something?

Hasn't been mentioned apart from my first post of the game, where I attempted to get discussion rolling.

You're assuming that one scum requires two votes to survive. If there are three scum, this means that it'll take the other two scum to vote the scum that needs two votes in order to save that scum, and that means the two-vote scum has to choose which lackey to save. In other words, they can't all protect each other. They have three votes between them and need four. Besides, if two players are both voting for the same person, WE WOULD FUCKING NOTICE.

No, lets use a scenario to show what I mean. Lets say in this scenario there's 3 mafia, there's no vig. One of the three mafia require two votes to live, the other two don't. Mafia A votes mafia B. Mafia B votes mafia A. Mafia C is the one that needs two votes can do whatever the fuck he wants. This mafia gets lynched. Mafia A and B repeat until game end where they win. Therefore there has to be something put in place to prevent it, and it's not what Chesskids roleclaim involves. So either, you think there's two mafia in the setup and Chesskids roleclaim is what is preventing mafia from crossvoting winning or there's three mafia and Chesskids role is irrelevant.

What the fuck? All you've done so far is whine about how he's going after CK3, and now you say you don't even think he's scum? What the fuck have you been then? Who do you find scummy? You haven't said. You've been giving the appearance of scum hunting, but really all you're doing is buddying up to Fate, speculating about multiple scumteams, and defending chesskid3. I don't see a pro-town reason to do any of those things.

Simple. Sparking discussion, forcing people to make stands to attain reads. As for who I think is scummy, I have gut-scum read on someone but I want to discuss it with G before I announce it.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - It's entirely possible Chesskid is lying aboutt needing two votes, I never ruled it out at all though I doubt it to an extent due to the fact I had a slight town read on him prior to the roleclaim.

TonyMontana - Setup speculation isn't a scum-tell.

Fate - Fishy claims to not have a save vote at all meaning two people will be lynched by day end unless I've misread somewhere.
Do you have any reads apart from Chesskid at this stage?
You've played a lot with Vezo in the past - What's your read on him in particular?

[Duplicity]

Finally had a chance to have a conversation with G. We've decided to refrain from posting about our FoS at this point because we have enough meta-tells on this player to attain a stronger read from them if we just let them play their natural game.

Umbrage, you have a tendancy to tunnel and not read peoples posts properly - Never have I stated I think Fate is the greatest, in fact I find his play-style to be sub-par but that's a conversation for another day.

R.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - I'm not attempting to stall anything, you clearly seem to misunderstand. I know that I have a higher chance of attaining a solid read on my current FoS if I allow them to play as they naturally do for a while longer. Don't get me wrong, I do plan on outing them way before day end.

Considering previous knowledge I consider tunnelling a null-tell in regards to you, though I do overall have a slight-town read on you due to:
#13 - Umbrage: Slight town-tell from it - Host would have made sure mafia got their role PM’s, missed role PM is likely to be a town role over a mafia one
#56 - Umbrage: Slight town-tell from it - Shows an attempt at scum hunting and putting forward a case.

R.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - You only have to think about it for two seconds, If I were mafia wouldn't I want to out an alternative FoS to attempt to cast suspicion and attention elsewhere? Therefore the fact that I'm withholding some of my thoughts is a complete null-tell.

In what way do you not understand that if I were to just out my FoS right now it would result in a diminishment in the chance that I would be able to reaffirm it later on?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - I can see how it can be considered WIFOM so that's understandable. The idea of backdooring however is lost in this game. The general idea of backdooring is that mafia convince the town to majority vote someone other then themselves in oder to prevent their own lynch.

* In this game town: Do not need to attempt to convince a majority of the town that someone deserves to die, instead they just need to convince those currently voting their FoS to move their vote.

* In this game mafia: Do not have to prevent themselves from being voted by a majority of the town, they just have to gain assurance they have one of the town believes them. Therefore there is more insentive in this setup for mafia to attempt to please and meet the towns demands rather then to withold information in an attempt to create a last minute scramble.

Validation of my thoughts are being done through G who is attempting to keep me level headed when he believes I start to tunnel, posting my thoughts in the thread at the current moment will do close to nothing to benefit the town - If you believe otherwise feel free to explain to me what other benefits this would include other then validation which is already occuring and response which would throw the player of their normal meta.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. Mafia stating a definitive read is sometimes easier then them keeping their options open, them stating a definitive read allows them a direction of which they can steer conversation thus making it easy for them to predict towns responses - Anyway this is turning into semantics arguments so I"ll put this aside for now. I believe I have shared all my reads at the current moment with the exception of my FoS of which reasons I've already stated.

Freewill - If what you're after is to increase the pressure towards those who have yet to post real content then why put a save vote on one of the players who is actively lurking at the moment - Wouldn't creating pressure be more revealing in regards to his allignment than that of some of the inactive players?

[Duplicity]

Alright, considering pressure was just placed on our prime FoS the idea of standing back and allowing them to carry on naturally is moot thus I may as well go into my reads in a greater depth. I finally had a chance to have a proper discussion with G about other players in the game. We disagree with some of our reads so we've decided to call anyone we disagree with at the moment null overall until we can come up with an agreed judgement.

Apokalyptika

- Mafia. Here we go to my biggest FoS by far, though G is worrying that I've began to tunnel. In Post #59 - Apokalyptika: Slight scum-tell from it - Shows no attempt to keep up with real discussion and states intention towards wanting to lynch Chess due to his role. In Post #119 - Apokyalyptia: Slight scum-tell from it - Turns up when their name was mentioned quoting a useless part of the day after a lot more meaningful discussion had taken place. This post leads me of the assumption that Apok/Fishy are not partners together. Post #169 - Apokolyptika: Slight scum-tell from it - Filler post, no new content added from it, merely a means to seem active. From spectating her games, she has a tendancy to lurk as mafia while being highly indecisive over she FoS's. She also has a massive tendacy to ask questions rather then answer them. Her town meta is almost the polar opposite - She tunnels, has very strong FoS's and is active as town.

Chesskid

- Town. G doubts the strength of this read at the moment but otherwise agrees with me, this is due to Post #7 - Chesskid: Slight town-tell from it - Shows initiative in working out the mechanic via a suggestion. Overall his play has been revolving around his roleclaim - I still have yet to see why this claim in particular is considered a scum-tell in any right. With that said; the way information has been revealed I read as a town-tell in specific posts # 14, 18 and 175.

Umbrage

- Town. I've gone over the reasons earlier. This is one read G and I seem to be in agreement on.

Fate

- Null. G has no read whatsoever on him, I have a slight-gut town read but nothing I would bank on - If my memory serves me correctly his D1 scum and town play is highly similar.

FishyTheFish

- Null. G and I have a major disagreement in relation to him, I think he's contradicted himself multiple times and have a slight-scum read on him whereas G has a town-read on him. I'll let G state later why he believes so, but I think he's scum due to the fact that in post 63 he states Chess claim leads to him being scum and should die. In post 92 he states that he's getting a town-read from Chess claim. In post 145 changes right back to his opinion that Chess is mafia with no mention of reasons behind it. Post #174 - FishyTheFishy: Slight scum-tell from it: Contradiction within the post - Is attempting to say Chesskid is buddying someone else suspected to live therefore wouldn’t that person be town, yet how do they maintain a spot on his death list.

Freewill

- Null. Too little content to make a judgement but in Post #165 - Freewill: Slight scum-tell from it - Shows obvious hypocrisy, votes to attempt to pressure others into providing content while not doing any himself. On top of that the person he decided to spare would be the best person to pressure.

Vezo

- Null. Too little content to make a judgement but Post #157 - Veo: ???? - As much as I hate reading into these, would he really say this as mafia?

InternetStranger

- Town. The read is weak in comparison to my other town-reads and G only partially agrees with it. His posts although illogical at times seem to be geninue attemps at helping. Though I am uncertain of this read when reading Post #155 - InternetStranger: Slight scum-tell from it - States that others can ”decide what they want to do” while attempting to force his opinion via the repetition of his two FoS’s.

TheMask

- Town. Again another of my weaker reads - Haven't had a chance to discuss it with G but in Post #172 - The Mask: Slight town-tell from it: This was the exact thought process that was going through my head - I was considering sparing Nacho even though he was inactive. On top of that the conclusion he drew with CK/Fishy is interesting.

Apologies for the wall of text, but this game needs real content to start occuring. With that said:

Vote: Chesskid

.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger - Interesting, now with your claim your initial doubt of Chesskids claim is starting to make some sense, can you elaborate on anything else in relation to your role? If you were to recieve three votes instead of two, would your power be strengthened?

1) If you've read my post properly, you'll note I have four townreads, two being weak in comparison to my townread of Umbrage and Ck, Umbrage has enough votes to assure safety therefore my vote is a no-brainer.

2) Are you really attempting to say that I've only 'Just' started to do a lot of talking, I've been one of the most consistent and active posters throughout the thread the entire game - Therefore you stating 'I am doing the talking for someone else now' is idiotic to say the very least.

3) I'm perfectly fine with outing my head, I can't speak for G's, but my head is Regfan and if you look at any of my games you'll notice I always bold the person I'm talking about when I discuss my reads here's an example.

4) Which "Lurker" have I given "Favourable" reads towards? The only one I can see is TheMask where I've actually stated the weakness and reasoning behind it.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger - Both CK and Fishy have stated there's more to their role then current mentioned as have you, it's entirely possible the 'more' to the role balances out the hinderance they currently have. Though your claim throws everything into a spiral, I don't know if I believe there is three town-sided roles involving multiple votes wanted/needed or none at all - I'll ponder over it tonight and have a discussion with G tommorow.

1) I've explained my reasoning behind my town-read on him. Either you agree or you don't, continuing to argue over this is pointless.
2) Player ABCDEF are talking. Player B stops talking, how does that increase the likelyhood any of ACDEF are mafia?
3) You're reaching so far here that it's unbelievable.
4) I state I have a null-read on Vezo, Freewill votes to spare him, you attack me state I'm mafia for it yet don't even question Freewill - That's an example of the extent you're tunnelling here. I suggest you re-read the thread with a clear head later.

Umbrage - The content that he has brought up his roleclaim and how he openly stated he didn't understand his role screams town to me, if he was mafia what reason would he have to post that in the thread?

[Duplicity]

Edit:

Umbrage - The context in which he brought up his roleclaim*

Sorry shouldn't be posting late at night.

[Duplicity]

I should be asleep so odds are this post will have a large deal of typo's throughout it.

Internet Stranger - You're attempting to make it sound like CK vanished without posting at all which is not at all the case nor is it a scumtell. I was asked to state my reads, stances and opinions on players, I did exactly that, if I was posting purely for filler sake wouldn't I have included Tony and Klazam in it - Again you're stretching.

Fate - Finally a point that makes some sense. Though CK stated ealier there was much more to his role then him needing two votes to be safe, therefore it's likely there is something to counter-that.

Chesskid - Does your role cause considerable harm if you had to fullyclaiming at this point, if not go ahead and do so.
Fishy and InternetStranger - Same question above to you.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger - Never have I said that I believe mafia have no restrictions, in fact it's the opposite I've been attempting to work out what their hiderances are - I don't think Chess's role is what would prevent them from being overpowered, though I can see it being one of them if there are multiple factors.

With that said, a lot of town sided and alligned roles are double-edged swords, an example of this would be the paranoid gun ower who has the ability to kill town power roles that visit as wll as killing mafia that do - That's what Chesskid seems to be claiming a role that has benefits and disadvantages as to what the benefits are I'm waiting to hear.

I haven't attempted to avoid thinking or discussion about anything if isn't incredibly obvious I've responded to any issue or question thrown towards me. In what way would attempting to attain and gain information be a scum-ploy given the way it's gone about - I'm obviously extremely lacking of information in regards to this mechanic and setup therefore any information gained is highly beneficial.

G seems to be busy doing an assignment so I'm going to need to redicuss this when he's done -

Unvote

. I don't want a blitz to occur while I'm sleeping.

[Duplicity]

Chesskid - You stated your role allows you to have two ways to avoid the lylo situation that Fate suggested can you explain in what way can a vig needing two votes be able to do anything on a lylo to prevent a loss from occuring.

Umbrage/InternetStranger - We're not lynching a vig claim today, if he's vig there's a good chance he can confirm so tonight therefore I suggest you take the tunnel goggles of and state your thoughts in relation to other players in the room.

Fate - Your plan is incredibly stupid and surely in light of CK's claim you would realize that we're town, the fact you haven't is damning to say the least.
Can you elaborate on what makes you think Umbrage is mafia, because I'm not seeing it at the moment.

With all that said, I do believe both CK and IS are town and it is optimal to allow IS to have a second vote today. As for the players I'd like to see lynched I would say Apokolptika/Freewill.

R.G.

[Duplicity]

You'll have to elaborate, never played with a governor before, what does it do exactly?

[Duplicity]

Fate, the entire basis of the case put up against me was - Omg defending CK therefore he's mafia.

Humour me and attempt to put up even an ounce of case as to how I'm mafia and I'll tear that shit up as well as you a new asshole at the same time.

[Duplicity]

Fate put your money where your mouth is.

Edit: I do think you're town, read earlier I stated I have a gut-town read on you, the only reason it's as weak is because G refuses to take a stance on you.

[Duplicity]

G's doing an assignment otherwise he'd be in hear rippin this shit up. Perhaps you should read where I said it, maybe you'll realise that I said I had a gut town read on you in that exact same paragraph and the meta involvement was G's reason for calling you null.

So in other words, you want to lynch someone who you admit is posting 'reasonable shit' over players that have yet to take a stance or post any content on a horrible whim probably to progress to lose the game? Naise, your tunneling is hillarious to say the least.

[Duplicity]

Lets do this then - Apart from saying 'Gut'. What leads you to think I'm mafia, still waiting on it.

[Duplicity]

Alright - Ignore me for a bit then.

Reads on everyone else. Go.

[Duplicity]

Still waiting on an explanation as to why you think Umbrage is mafia too. Earlier today you stated earlier Apok was scum, now shes town? Your lack of logic is hillarious to observe.

[Duplicity]

Care to divulge into what that town-tell may be? It is hillarious, a player with 13000 posts can't comprehend or use basic logic.

[Duplicity]

A case cannot be proven incorrect if there is no case. Therefore you refusing to use any form of logical reasoning behind your actions or decisions means that you yourself will be unable to rethink your early decisions. In other words, you understand and realize that you pick a select group of individuals, tunnel them until they are dead regardless of what is said or done, this is your worst quality as a player.

If you stood back for one minute and reassesed the situation and noticed the amount of people who attacked and pushed for CK and my lynch when I was defending and insisting that he town-told earlier you'd realize I'm town.

Embarassingly enough I did have to check up the actual defintion in relation to Ad Homeium, it's misused where I previously played mafia.

[Duplicity]

Heading out for a few hours, but here's a updated list of our reads.

B = Both agree upon D = Disagreement U = Discussed.

Town - From strongest to weakest.

Internet Stranger - B
Umbrage - B: Still want to hear what the case is against him.
chesskid3 - B
Fate - D
The Mask - U

Null

Nachomamma8 - B
vezokpiraka - B
FishytheFish - D
TonyMontana - D
Klazam - U

Mafia - From strongest to weakest.

Apokalyptika - B
Freewill - B

[Duplicity]

U = Undiscussed*

[Duplicity]

Firstly - Umbrage, my large post stating my suspects was merely 24 hours ago, to state that I'm 'active lurking' is a massive joke. Umbrage, just a question for you ignore CKs claim, read his posts do you think he reads town or mafia? - Same question to you InternetStranger.

Secondly - Reasons for believing Chesskids claims are as follows:
1. Post #18 - A) He states that his role is pretty anti-town, mafia have no reason to say that. B) He says he doesn't fully understand his role, considering his claim is 2 votes to live, gets a vig shot and a one shot governer this makes sensee.
2. Post #82 - States he's not getting lynched - Adds up with the one shot governer claim unless I'm understanding the role wrong.
3. Post #202 - States he has a counter to the 3 way lylo situation - Adds up witht he one shot governer claim again unless I'm understanding it wrong.
4. His arrogance and attitude today fits his role-claim, as well as his town-meta.
5. His role shows a possible counter to the mafia save-saving each other as he has the ability to night-kill them, therefore to say that his two spare is something mafia need is ignoring the opposite end of the spectrum being his vig shot is something town needs.

Thirdly - Considering you've fully claimed is there anything else related to your claim you can tell us CK, any form of flavour involved in it?

Going to go finish catching up on this thread after I get me something to eat.
R.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - In response to This post. I'd appreciate if you not fake quotes - It's a pet peeve of mine. Also, can you attempt to cut down on the massive caps lock posts, I know for Fate it's already a stuck habit but I'd suggest you to not fall into that rutt.

1) A) WIFOM is streching here. B) It's also something that someone with a confusing role would do as well. Though I can see that this is effectively null.
2) Perhaps not a strong indication of allignment but it adds up with his claim.
3) I too want to know what the second one is -

CK: You said you had two counters, minus the Governor use what's the second one.

4) You're correct here.
5) You seem to be harping over the intial suggestion of possible mult-scumteams. I didn't say anything about the likelyhood or probablity of a second-scum team just speculated on possible combinations in the setup. Personally, I don't know if double mafia teams would do all that much to balance this mechanic but I know a vig does.

InternetStranger - You're implying that all roles in this game have flavour, I for one don't. Care to elaborate on what flavour you apparently have? I do agree that we need to start prodding lurkers though.

Klazam - Ignoring CK for a second - Do you have any alternate reads outside of him?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - No problem.

1) A) I have an unorthodox view of WIFOM - I believe the word WIFOM is overused and that a large deal of actions that are called or put of as WIFOM are things that you can actually draw from.
2) I can agree that he seems to be impulsive, but what difference does that have to a potential second possibly to prevent the 3 way scenario.
5) I do agree with you here, I believe I stated so earlier - A vig along has no chance at being a realistic counter to mafia-mafia saving. There indeed DOES have to be something else - And from the claims we've had today none of them solve it completely.

InternetStranger - Understandable. I want CK to elaborate into his role if possible. This is actually also something I want from you as well - If what you say is true, that there is a blatant difference in yours and CK's roleclaims flavour wise then it's something we need to understand far better.

[Duplicity]

I'm incredibly drunk right now and G seems to be slipping in keeping up with this game - He hasn't given me a strong scumread yet. I promise a big catch up post in the next 12-25 hours, with that said I still think Apok and Freewill are mafia and evenmore so Fishy now but I'll go into this in my next post, Fate your townread on Apok is what?

In regards to Tony - I read #185 and #190 to be a slight town-tell, that being the logic might not be fully sound but the intention and thought process of sparing someone you FoS to assure their death later seems town.

[Duplicity]

Wow. Just wow. This game turned into a shit-fest since I last posted. I honestly am not even going to bother defending myself against a case that doesn't exist, I'll just let you all realize how big idiots you are when I flip town tommorow and you notice that you removed someone who was actually attempting to help you win unlike a great deal of the playerbase. G can take over if he wants, but I'm just going to state my reads and I'll be on my way.

Umbrage - Town.
CK3 - Town.
InternetStranger - Town.
Fate - Likelytown.
Tony - Leaningtown.

Vezo - Null.
Fishy - Null.
The Mask - Null.
Klazam - Null.
Nacho - Null.

Freewill - Likelymafia.
Apok - Likelymafia.

I will put my vote on one of Umbrage/CK3/IS/Fate/Tony depending on which doesn't have a spare vote by day end. At the current moment they all seem to.

[Duplicity]

Eh. I actually am starting to lean towards Vezo being town and Klazam being mafia. Klazam states he's perfectly fine with _, _ and _ dying without stating any reasoning behind his reads of them, and then turns around to get overdefensive at any sign of him potentially not being saved.

Scum reads: Freewill, Apok, Klazam. If you're adamant about refusing to realize the case against me is zilch and that I'm actually town I expect two of these to die today alongside me.

[Duplicity]

Apok - Nachos absence is a complete null-tell, I checked and he's been absent throughout all of his games therefore it holds no weight nor reason towards his allignment. Wheras I read all three of you as scum to a certain extent, so yes is in a no-brainer when it comes to which of you I would rather not saved.

In regards to my read on Vezo, Post #181 he openely admits to not reading the entire thread, I see no scum motivation for doing so. Post #490 reads as geninue frustration and distaint in which I read town from, I haven't seen that sort of reaction from him as mafia in any of the games I've read. And yes, I do realize Umbrage will come in and say WIFOM to these points, but honestly at this point I don't care.

[Duplicity]

Apokalytika, You'll just find people enjoy refraining from stating reasoning behind any of their actions in case it can be disproved and them proved incorrect.

The Mask, It's been far longer then 18 hours where's your catch up post?

Klazam, I'll await your post with reads and reasoning before I go into anything but it seems like you're attempting to stand back and allow the bickering and whatnot to continue even though you stated you clearly find it frustrating and unhelpful.

Nacho - Your inactivity may be a null-tell but the lack of effort or reasoning you've put forward upon return is puzzling to say the least. I've got a few questions for you:

1)Do you think Fate is town? - Your "'lets rip this shit together' attitude seems to be under the assumption he is.
2)What do you make of my slot at the current moment?
3)What do you make of IS's claim and statement that CK's addition of flavour is a confirmation he's mafia?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - Although this is addressed towards Fate, I feel compelled to reply.

Regardless of what his role is, chesskid3 had no choice but to claim today.

I agree with you here. [Though I find the town-tell from him to be the way the claim occured not the fact he claimed but that can be an argument for another rainy day.]

There are two possibilities at this point. Either your role is a town-aligned power role, or your role is scum. Everyone in the game knows you have got to be one of these things. The only non-suicidal course of action is to claim a town-aligned power role.

I have to agree with you here as well.

FACT: chesskid3 would not be able to survive the day without claiming a power role.

Yes.

FACT: Scum will always kill a confirmed power role over anyone else.

Yes.

FACT: If chesskid3 is a power role, it is impossible for him to survive longer than night 1 if every faction plays to their wincon.

Not a fact, doctor is easily explainable.

Such a scenario would not get past set-up review. That's not speculation, that's truth. When the open queue tried hosting a 12-player set-up with a doc and a cop, nobody wanted to join. Everyone hates follow-the-cop. It would not be allowed here.

From memory I believe I've seen multiple setups such as this - when I get a break later today I'll go through a few games and post a few links.

Now Umbrage, your turn to respond to my statements:
1. InternetStranger claims to need two votes to be able to get a power-role action.
2. No one is going to be given two votes unless they claim they need/want it.
3. If someone claims they want or need two votes they're going to have to either soft-claim or hardclaim.
4. This is going mean that the mafia know that InternetStranger is a strong power-role.
5. So how is InternetStranger any different from Chesskid3 when it comes to your theory?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - You're missing the point. You're saying CK is mafia because his role wouldn't be in the game, that's your main argument. InternetStrangers role means he's a VT unless he gets two votes. Sure, he might not need two votes to live like CK but what would the point be of putting his role in the setup if he was expected to never get to be able to use his night ability.

In order to be able to use his night ability he would need two votes meaning he would need to claim. If he claims he dies from what your saying -That being there's no doctor in the setup. So essentially, all the arguments that you're making for why CKs role can't be in the game can be presented against InternetStranger as well.

[Duplicity]

Fate - As much as I hate to say this a roleblocker doesn't negate the point Umbrage is attempting to make which is that CKs role would have to claim to some degree to attain two votes, therefore would be shot/roleblocked removing the entire benefit of his role and the reason for having it in the setup. The likelyhood that there is a doctor in the setup is extremely high though considering the fact that we've had two roles claim that they are highly useful at night.

[Duplicity]

Absentee head here, have barely been able to keep up with thread because of real life which has most likely irritated R.

I don't think chess being scum makes much sense here, the nature of his claim means he almost certainly has to be left to die at some point in the game, unless he reliably kills scum. Its antitown nature seems not too different from a hated townie. Would you automatically assume a hated townie is mafia?

Just let chess live, and if he doesn't kill scum then reconsider whether or not he's worth saving.

R has a townread on Umbrage, but I didn't exactly see it until #506, which I like and agree with. Was going to point out myself that two fairly quiet players are cross-saving each other without much discussion. Disagree with him about pretty much everything else, though

I'm fine with letting Apokalyptika die right now, they've been faily minimal in contribution, R agrees with them as a FOS.

Tony seems too dumb to be scum. Would a scum player really say to let scum decide who lives in this game? I would rather save him than apok.

Flishy flip-flops an awful lot. In particular, in post #497 he seems to be criticizing klazam for buddying up to the claimed vig, but then doubts chess's authenticity. He seems to be trying to argue both sides of chess's authenticity. He of course isn't dying today, but I want you all to look at him tomorrow if we die today.

IS does too much grandstanding but I think he's town.

I thought Freewill said some vaguely town-like stuff in his posts, but R explained to me that he's not being proactive and is just gungho about chess being scum. He's also kept his spare vote on vezok, has not discussed moving it at all, like he has an interest in keeping a less useful player alive. Reasons for sparing vezok were stupid too.

vezok is useless town.

leaning town on Fate. Annoying, but town. Definitely came off looking better from his argument with Freewill.

Klazam is a null read for me.

Nacho/mask post very little and as Umbrage pointed out are cross-saving with little discussion. Leaning scum on them.

Anyway those are my reads so keep them in mind if we get left to die.

G.

[Duplicity]

Tony - Fishy doesn't need a sparevote to live, I'd suggest you move that back to Chesskid.

[Duplicity]

above post was R., this is G.

spare: chesskid3

I'd rather we die than the claimed vig, if it comes down to that. The tinfoil hat brigade can leap on this all they want, we'll flip town so it's irrelevant.

G.

[Duplicity]

Internet Stranger - I discussed Umbrages 'Good point', and there's a gapping flaw in it being it all gets removed with the inclusion of a doctor in the setup, which is highly likely considering the role you've claimed yourself. He even took a second to step back to reconsider his position, then for some reason decided it was time to start yelling and screaming instead of dicussing it again.

Nachos really dropping the ball in this game - I suggest he either catch up or replace out, same to TheMask.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - Your entire reasoning behind CK not being real is that 'THERES NO DOC BECAUSE I SAID SO'. Sure, that holds some ground but you are continuing to look at what this would also mean for InternetStranger, you can't use that reasoning to say CK is mafia but IS isn't. Either both are mafia due to your reasoning, or the reasoning is invalid - Which is it?

Klazam - More over-defensiveness, really? Where's those reads and reasoning you've been continiously promising.

Freewill - Here you say Tony is mafia, what leads you to believe that? Also, if you believe there's no real alternative to Vezo to put your spare vote on, then why not refrain from placing it until one arrives. Which posts of Vezo before you placed your vote read as earnest if extremely annoying?

What is this, seriously have you not even read the rules? If we're under the 75% then mafia will be able to decide which of those without a vote die, if we're over 75% then all of those without a vote die. That's really not hard to understand. Fishy says he talked to RC here to verifiy who would die if the day would end right now here.

I think scum may have been willing to push this idea that we get three lynches because they may have some influence over who actually gets eliminated.

The major pushers of the 'Lets get multiple people on the block" movement have been Fate and I, if you believe mafia are pushing this how come you're refrained from stating any opinion in regards to us and instead push for other lynches?

My scum-read of Fishy continues to grow, he's continuing to fence-sit and although he has no spare vote to use today he has no reason to not attempte to assure that his scum-reads go up on the block which he's refrained from doing. On the other end of the spectrum my scum-read on Apok is reduced to some degree though I still don't have a problem with her on the block today.

[Duplicity]

Freewill - Are you willing to respond to the rest of my post there's multiple questions in there for you or are you going to continue making it seem like you're contributing by discussing something very irrelevant to who mafia is.

To be clear on the effect of my role; if the votecount remained as it is, Apok, Duplo and Tony

would die

.

This is what RC apparently told Fishy when he asked him.

[Duplicity]

Freewill - This should suffice:
Here he says he'll ask RC about who would die if the day were to end.
Here Here he states that the other three will die.
Here he reaffirms it.
Here He reaffirms it again.

[Duplicity]

Freewill - If the issue you seem to have is that you believe the rules leave it open to multiple interpretations then why not just PM RC asking him for clarification? Reading through your posts in ISO roughly half of your posts seem to revolve around arguing that your minority viewed interpretation of the rules is correct whereas others are wrong. None of that benefits us in any way unless you believe peoples reactions to your opinion will be allignment revealing which you've shown no sign of looking into.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - Are you attempting to say that IS's role wouldn't cause a follow-the-cop scenario? If anything, ISs role is much more of an investigative and stronger role than CKs.

Freewill - I read it in context before I read your ISO, I know exactly how it occured and you know how Fate plays. When provoked he will yell and scream and yes sometimes he may make comments that are over the top but there's no reason in joining in a speculation contest with him if the answer you seek isn't that hard to attain.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger - What's the point of your role if it's never going to be able to use it's investigative ability? Your role might not 'NEED' to claim on day one but it should meaning the diffence between yours and CKS role is minimal.

[Duplicity]

Chess - Needs 2 votes to live. You - Could use 2 votes for bonuses, only need one. Fishy - Doesn't need any votes to live.

They don't balance each other out at all, Fishy why not needing any votes to live has no vote therefore no balance is struck.

On top of that, his role isn't the 'Innocent little child who can't be mafia' it's actually the opposite, this sort of role would prevent or at least limit cross-saving mafia. Here Fishy states there's a lot more to his role then not being able to vote or not needing to be voted for, he also states there's a possibly that it changes after today, so his role is indeed more complex then 'Doesn't ever need to be spared' which I agree would be an overpowered scum role.

[Duplicity]

Because you've shown absolutely no reason you should be saved.

G.

[Duplicity]

EBWOP: Gah, that was directed at Apok. I don't know how I missed the latest series of posts.

[Duplicity]

Tony - You put a third spare vote on IS when he already has the two he needs, does that mean you think both Freewill and Klazam are mafia? If so, can you explain to me what makes you think they are?

[Duplicity]

Welcome Protoss, we're up against a fairly tight deadline at the moment so the faster you can re-read and state your thoughts the better.

Tony - We have discussed this entire point about mafia having hinderances to balance out the game multiple multiple times already, it's why there was such high suspicion towards CK's claim. For now all we can do is question people when they move or place their spare votes in order to attempt to work out who is sparing their partners.

I haven't discussed this over with G yet, but I don't think he'll have a problem with me moving my spare vote. I don't understand the reasoning of keeping Tony up on the block, all of his posts strongly resemble noobtown over anything else. Tony, you're going to need to move your spare vote from IS to CK otherwise I'm changing this back.

Unspare: Chesskid, Spare: TonyMontana.

FreeWill and Klazam need to stay on the block. I'm indifferent about Apok right now, and I need to hear more from Nacho and TheMasks slot before I decide in regards to them.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage - Don't throw a tantrum just because there's disagreement with your FoS, you joined a game to play it if you have problems with some of the playerlists actions replace out otherwise you need to learn to deal with it. Lets assume for a second that you're correct and CK is mafia, he has to have partners, therefore you can still aim to have them lynched today and end with a succesful result.

[Duplicity]

It's getting late here, but I'll be back on tomorrow with a full list of reads and reasons why.

This was four days ago.............

[Duplicity]

There would be no way that he would be able to anticipate that we would leave the maximum number of people unspared as he stated he didn't need to be spared and couldn't spare vote almost instaneously at day start. I do agree with your conclusion that he's mafia, but I do think he legitimatly doesn't need to be spared to live today.

[Duplicity]

If you're attempting to say that you believe he 'gambited', the risk vs reward in the scenario do not match up at all. To be perfectly honest I don't even understand how you could speculate or ponder over that. Risk: Assume that town do not put the maximum number of people on the block, he dies. Reward: Assume that town do put enough the maximum number of people on the block, he gets the ability to save himself which is just the equivolent to someone spare voting for him.

[Duplicity]

My only point is that the town should not assume fishy is confirmed town when he survives the lynch.

I assumed this was a given, and if you've read my posts you'd have noticed that. His role obviously has another side to it regardless of his allignment as a 'Can't vote, Don't need to be voted' is a useless role as town and as mafia. Speculation as to whethere his role is really town-sided or not can be left until a full-claim occurs or more information is attained in future days.

[Duplicity]

Freewill, you've spent quite an amount of time this game pointing out how other players aren't "Thinking", yet when you're on the block now you're not attempting to state reads nor reasons behind your reads. Instead you're making trivial avatar bets and questioning Fishys claim (Which you say has a less than 20% chance of being fake).

I see no town-motivation behind any of those actions at all, if you're attempting to change someones mind into thinking you're town you're going to have to stop these antics and starting using some realistic reasoning.

[Duplicity]

This two account thing is the most frustrating thing in the world. Obviously my post above.

[Duplicity]

Was just discussing the possibility of players on the chopping block removing ther votes right before deadline with Regfan (I'm using his full account name since he posted here on it, what a noob). Essentially, by the rules of the setup, if scum aren't being save, they can remove their votes at the last minute, giving them power over who lives and who dies. Regfan's suggestion was as such:

nacho moves from vezo to fate, vezo moves from nacho to ck3 (he's afraid of klazam possibly pulling off CK3, which would lead to more people dying due to a spare vote being wasted on CK3.), freewill should spare nacho if he's town. Not sure if people are going to agree with this, but I thought it would be good to put the idea out there. People need to start looking at whether or not they trust the person sparing them to keep their vote on them until deadline, is what I'm trying to get across.

Notable that klazam and protoss have promised reads but not delivered, as the deadline is coming up. Protoss sparing no one right now is majorly anti-town.

G.

[Duplicity]

You seem to have misunderstoof or completely ignored the point we're trying to make Vezo. If there are currently 3 (Maximum) amount of players on the chopping block, all one of the players on the chopping block would have to do to survive is unvote the person they currently have voted to spare. This would cause 4 people to remain unspared upon the deadline giving mafia the choice of which three they would prefer to die in which case they could just save themselves.

The only real counter we have of this is the vig who would be able to just shoot anyone who would to this before they have a chance to cause more havoc tommorow, therefore it's pivotal to have players on Chesskid that are indeed town and not on the chopping block thus the need for you to change.

[Duplicity]

I go to sleep and wake up to see Freewill and Klazam saved, this needs to be solved as soon as possible. I also don't trust Klazam on CK.

Klazam needs to die, there's no question about it, he's continiously refraining from posting any real content in the thread despite promising to do so a while back. Freewill needs to die as well, attempting to vengful Fate would lead towards mafia having the choice of who to spare, he would have known that at the time of doing so yet continued with the plan. I'd rather let Protoss finish his catch-up but overall I don't have any particular suspicions towards him so I'd rather he be saved. Apok I'm flip-flopping over at the moment - Apok, reads on everyone in your next post please.

[Duplicity]

No. It wouldn't. I would have swapped my vote. I was thinking protoss before he revoted fate.

You believe swap-saving someone that everyone seems to want dead will be beneficial for the town? You don't think they'd just end up on the block again tommorow or the day after?

If you believe Fate is mafia and want him unspared, make a case attempt to convince people he's mafia, doing anything else won't help whatsoever.

[Duplicity]

Mod, if Klazam gets replaced is it possible to have a 24 or 48 hour extention?

Klazam, if you are indeed town you should state all your thoughts and reads even if you do it in only a few minutes.

Yes, it's possible per my ruleset, but I'm not going to extend it barring a majority of players asking for it though.

[Duplicity]

I'm heading to bed and likely won't be up before deadline.

Vote: Extention Deadline

- This doesn't replace my spare vote on Chesskid, it's just because RC insists upon a majority and I'd rather more oraganizing time.

Freewill and Klazam both NEED to die tonight and Fishy does need to be vig shot tonight, I can agree with Protoss there. I could be tunneling but I'm still getting a town-read from Umbrage but I'd rather he took a chance to step back and look at things more logically. I think Fate is town, Chesskid is town, IS is town, Protoss is town, Apok I'm getting a slight-town read from now, Tony is town. Vezo is town. Getting a minor scum-read from Nacho to be honest.

Scum are in here:
Klazam, Freewill, Fishy, Nacho.

[Duplicity]

I've just woke up at 5am when I have no work r university on today to make sure mafia don't blitz save themselves so please don't yell in your posts.

Freewill, you promised reads prior to the deadline, they are?
Protoss, looks like you need to claim.

[Duplicity]

Unoffical Vote Count:
Internet Stranger (2) (Apokalyptika - Fate)
chesskid3 (3) (TonyMontana - Klazam - Protoss)
Umbrage (1) (Internet Stranger)
Duplicity (1) (chesskid3)
vezokpiraka (1) (Nachomamma8)
TonyMontana (1) (Duplicity)
Nachomamma8 (1) (vezokpiraka)
Freewill (1) (Umbrage)
Apokalytipa (1) (Freewill)
Not Voting (1) (FishytheFish)
No Safe Votes (3) (FishytheFish - Protoss - Klazam - Fate)

Someone on CK needs to move to Fate or Protoss, prefferably Umbrage.

[Duplicity]

This is incredibly stupid, Freewill needs to die. UMBRAGE GET IN HERE.

[Duplicity]

Freewill, you defended yourself by stating you'd finally help town by day-end by stating your reads, you didn't do so and on top of that you ignored my request of them an hour ago.

Protoss, Tony is town, dumbtown but still town and unsparing him at the last minute doesn't help whatsoever.

[Duplicity]

I'm no longer being lynched. Less necessary. Maybe I'll be killed tonight, of course, but it made it less pressing and I get to see a whole bunch of flips.

Lets take a look at what you've actually done to help today then.

A) Argue incorrect mechanic sematics.
B) State Fate is scum with 0 reasons to why.
C) State Fishys claim makes him cleartown.
D) Promise reads you didn't follow through on.

Did I miss anything?

[Duplicity]

Tony has dumb-told on multiple occasions.

Reactions are meaningless if no conclusion is drawn or attempted to be drawn from the, you would know that.

[Duplicity]

The game "Not being over" is irrelevant, up until a few hours ago you believed it was you on the chopping block and were perfectly fine with the lack of contribution you've added to this game, on top of that you knew the likelyhood of a last minute change condeming you yet you still refrained from "Sharing your wealthy of information" with us.

[Duplicity]

so freewill basically just claimed scum, right? That's what he did?

[Duplicity]

I was considering making a post being incredibly cruel and pointing out Umbrage and IS's inability to stand back and realize that CK was town but I'll refrain from doing so. Considering the deaths from last night I'm fairly sure we can assume that there's one mafia team only and the likelyhood is that there's three mafia, this means there's two remaining. I've had multiple discussions with G since the end of day one and I feel comfortable enough to state our current reads.

Apok - Town.

Given Protoss's flip I'm more inclined to believe that Apokalytika is town, she brings up TheMasks cross-sparing with Nacho in this post. My town read on her is solidified in the post where she states approval of the idea of TheMask dying when no one else was even noticing him. On top of that, the fact that she didn't have that much of an issue with dying yesterday strikes me as a town-tell, especially when it would mean that two mafia were up for the lynch pool.

InternetStranger - Town.

Not much has changed in this read, his rage and frustrated towards CKs claim yesterday seems highly genuine as does the manner in which he claimed, knowing the fact that CKs claim had led to him being suspected I don’t see a possible reason he would fake-claim a “Two spare vote” form of role. I'm still interested into him going into his reads in light of CKs flip.

TonyMontana - Leaning Town.

Again, nothing has changed in my read on him, his actions seem far to dumb to be scum, his “Lets spare someone we FoS to unspare at the last minute” doesn’t seem like something mafia would admit to trying to do. On top of that Protoss’s attempt to get me to change my vote from Tony to him near deadline makes me believe that Tony isn’t mafia with Protoss.

Vezo - Null

. I was intially leaning town on him but some of his actions and interactions with Protoss yesterday make me doubt that town-read. In this post he asks for Protoss to be spared, though I still find multiple of his posts to be slight-town tells though. I'll read more into him later, but for now I just want to see him post more content.

Fishy and Nacho are my current scum-reads but I'm going to hold of posting on them at the moment, I want to do read into something a bit more first as well as discuss it with G.

Although it's only D2 I'm considering the idea of a Mass-Claim, what's everyone elses thoughts on the matter?

[Duplicity]

For some reason when I copy and pasted it it left this one out:

Umbrage - Leaning town.

G and I are still discussing what to make of Protoss's push against Umbrage yesterday but I find his rage yesterday to be a town-tell, though now that my game with him is completed I can say that there is some hesitance in this read due to the fact I've seen him play in a slightly similar fashion as mafia. His arrogance and the “I’m going to quit” sort of attitude seems to lead me to believe he’s just frustrated-town rather than gambiting mafia. With CKs flip I want him to reassesses his reads and state what his current FoS’s are.

[Duplicity]

Vezo your stupidity really has no bounds.

[Duplicity]

Vezo - Just a few questions in regard to your claim, I haven't played with masons before so if any are against the rules don't answer them:

1) What have you and Nacho discussed in your Mason QT thus far?
2) If you two are masons what exactly was the purpose behind Nacho not voting to spare you earlier, instead he voted TheMask.
3) Do you have any addition flavour or actions along with the mason role?

IS should definatly out his innocent given the current situation, I"m going to take a step back and rethink things because I don't know if I believe mafia would fake-claim masons.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, there's no such thing as a godfather that flips town, and if you believe he was a GF then who shot him? If you think he's mafia, do you really think he'd shoot Freewill as mafia, the person highly likely to be lynched? Come on, accept the reality, CK was town, end of. T

The only issue with your plan of lynching one of Vezo/Nacho is if we lynch one of them and they flip mason then the other becomes confirmed town meaning they're highly likely to die at night. If IS's innocent is on Vezok than it would clear Nacho by relation meaning, if Vezok is his innocent he needs to state so in his next post.

I have a few suspicions, but want to wait a bit until I reveal all my cards... *poker face*

Were you or were you not the person who was attacking me from holding back on stating my thoughts earlier in the game, now you're doing the same thing as I did?

[Duplicity]

Honestly, the mason claim makes sense to me. Nacho pulled off saving Protoss to save vezok, which would be a pretty dumb/pointless move as scum in most cases - stop saving one scumbuddy to save another other one? Regfan suggested as much to me, will have to wait to hear what he thinks of this claim.

[Duplicity]

For the record, there's no need to give IS two votes today for the record considering CKs death there is a high likelyhood of us not having a doctor at all, meaning that double-sparing him to gain an investigation will be useless with his upcoming death.

Vezo, can you specifiy what words the breadcrumbs, as in what 'words'. G just told me, even if they're mafia there's zilch we can do about it considering the fact they can just cross-spare, on top of that them being masons makes sense with the "QTs" as mentioned earlier. I'm feeling more and more inclined to believe them at the moment.

Umbrage, I'm not in the mood to argue CKs allignment with you anymore, especially considering he's already flipped town, just know that if you are indeed town I won't be joining a game with you again, the extent of your tunnelling is incredible.

In regards to much needed setup-speculation at the moment what hinderance is in place to prevent mafia cross-sparing to game end, considering our vig is dead and I'm doubting there's a second one the addition of a town-alligned role preventing them from living is looking slim. I would have to assume the hinderance is in mafias inability to cross-spare at all which leads us back to Fishy again. The issue then is with our vig dead how would he possibly die.

So far the claims consist of:
CK:Angel - Vig and Governor power.
IS: Rolecop.
Nacho:Mason.
Vezo:Mason.
Fishy: Voteless with _____ else.

This doesn't seem right to me, there seems to be too many town-power roles that do nothing to prevent mafia cross-sparing, I honestly think a mass-claim to see if there's anything else in this game and which claims are more believable or not is the way to go. This would include Fishy fully-claiming.

[Duplicity]

This is such scummy bullshit. Let me list the reasons why...

1) It assumes IS is town.

2) If it doesn't assume IS is town, then it sets him up for death tomorrow should he survive the night, because if he was town he would die. Which is WIFOM, and you can bet your ass scum will take advantage of it.

3) There is absolutely no proof we do not have a doctor. In fact, if you believe chesskid3 was telling the complete truth about his role, then the only possible way this set-up could survive is if there is a doc. chesskid3's role, as he told it, meant that he would draw the kill N1, guaranteed. The only way to make his role only slightly broken is to put a doc in the set-up.

4) You are just way too sure of yourself. Sure that IS is town. Sure that he'll draw the NK. Sure that there isn't a doc. These are things that have not been proven.

1. If IS is mafia than not giving him two votes is a good thing as well, meaning there's no need to mention the possibly of him being mafia when discussing not giving him a second vote.
2. There's no such thing as setting someone up for a death that was already likely to occur, if mafia WIFOM and don't kill him that's perfectly fine it means we have someone that you seem to have a stronger-read on alive. No issue here.
3. Do you believe that there's a doctor, two masons, a vig and a cop? Really?
4. I'm not sure of anything in particular, but I believe not giving IS two votes today is the best way to progress.

I am not arguing CK3's alignment with you. I am saying he lied about his role, and there is a remote possibility that he was scum. His being town, does not mean he didn't lie. So kill the theatrics.

He flipped town, I have no reason to believe a townie would lie about their role in a situation such as that, and I'm not in the mood to argue about something irrelevant to the game though, so lets drop CKs allignment until post-game.

TRANSLATION: We don't know who's stopping the mafia from winning this game immediately, so let's have everyone claim so the mafia know EXACTLY who to kill!!!!!!!!!!

Simply put, we have multiple power-role claims already, mafia already know they're going to shoot one of them, having other people claim will do nothing other than give us information about what the setup entails and increases the likelyhood we can understand Fishys role.

[Duplicity]

And it brings up yet another hole in your argument above: if you think there is a town PR that stops the scum from cross-saving, and you think we should massclaim today, why the hell would you expect IS to get the kill? Seems to me the mafia would just kill whoever's stopping them from cross-saving and ride the train to victory!

I forgot to address this, if there is indeed a town role that has the ability to prevent mafia cross-sparing it would have the be nightkill-immune, otherwise the death of this role on night one would mean that mafia would become unstoppable and the game would be broken meaning if such a role exists there would be no risk in it claiming.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger, my belief is that there isn't a vig, a rolecop, a doctor and two masons in the setup. I'm fairly certain of this, addition of all those power-roles none of which properly counter mafia cross-sparing in the setup seems highly unlikely, I think everyone can agree upon this.

Therefore the possible scenarios are:
1) There's no doctor: Which would mean giving you a spare vote is pointless as you'd just die.
2) The rolecop claim is fake: Which would mean giving you the spare vote wouldn't be helpful at all.
3) The mason claims are fake: Which is something I want to better read into later, at the moment I'm inclined to believe them however that's open to change.

I'm not attempting to treat this as lylo, just to attain more information to better judge the situation and which power-role is likely fake. In regards to who I want to have lynched today, I honestly couldn't answer but I am entertaining the idea of placing a vote on Fishy to see if that does indeed kill him, he's my only remaning strong scum-read.

[Duplicity]

Did I really just read that? Jesus christ, take a step back look at things.

Do you believe there is a doctor, a rolecop, a vig and two masons in the setup? Yes or no.

[Duplicity]

I just did some searching researching and the TreeStump does indeed explain Fishys role and seems to generally be a town-sided role. I'm going to need to do some reading in the next few days I'll refrain from posting my reads until then.

Vezo, only two people can safely die today.

[Duplicity]

Its time to work with what we have. Like Vezo said so himself, if there was no way to break up their little scum deadlock, the game would be over. So there is a way for the town to still win. Dupe is desperate, DESPERATE to find that reason. Certainly there is a reason for this, and none of it sounds town motivated. A townie would explore every possibility to ferret out scum. Scum would always seek the path of least resistance.

I'm going to attempt to explain this one final time. There has to be something to prevent mafia from cross-sparing. This is not setup speculation but a plain fact. The inclusion of a town power role to prevent mafia from cross-sparing would only work if the role was night-kill immune otherwise them dying night one would mean mafia have the already. This is not setup speculation this is a fact.

Therefore mafia have to have some form of hinderance to prevent them from cross-sparing, mafia already know what this is, therefore attempting to speculate or work out what it is has no scum-motivation whatsoever. If we do have a night-kill immune role that prevents them from cross-sparing they need to openely claim, that's what I'm attempting to gain from this mass-claim.

[Duplicity]

In relation to Umbrages recent post:

1. That's a valid point. I concede to that.
2. I'm unsure what a deputy is, mind elaborating? If there's a town-power role preventing mafia from cross-sparing it has to be night-kill immune.
3. Fine.
4. I'll get back to you on this one right now I'm rethinking a lot of my reads.

I don't want a show irrelevant discussion is something I really detest in a mafia game. Not saying anything else on the matter and I plead that you do too.

Explain to me how the inclusion of a particular role in this setup that prevents cross-sparing could possibly not be kill-immune, their death N1 would be a wasted and pointless game.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger, assume you check them and get a scum result on Nacho or Vezo, how would we get them lynched when they will just cross-spare. That is the issue I am attempting to figure out. With that said I was continously stating that CK was town and that his role indeed was in the game, so yes setup speculation might not be sure-fire but it is something I am having some sucess with at the moment.

When you say that I'm not at all attempting to scumhunt, that's a blatant lie, it's incredibly obvious that I am. The mason claims have put me on my back foot at the moment and I'm attempting to work out whether or not I fully believe them, I don't understand how you can't comprehend that.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger, take a walk in my shoes for a second.

I come into today fairly sure about my reads I have PoE'ed the mafia down to Fishy/Nacho/Vezok.

Nacho/Vezok claim masons, they cross-spare, I slightly believe their claim.
You claim to have an innocent on Fishy, I think you're town therefore he's town by relation.

I'm left thinking who I've read wrong or wondering if there's a way that it is indeed Nacho/Vezo. That's my current state of mind.

[Duplicity]

Vezo the "We can cross-save each other every day therefore we're town" argument is god awful, I suggest you drop it. Assuming there's two mafia left which likelyhood is the case the two mafia could do the exact same think you're claiming to be doing.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, I never said that the role exists. I said that there'd be no harm mass-claiming because if there's a town-role that has the sole responsibility of preventing mafia cross-sparing it has to be night-kill immune. The entire reasoning behind the mass-claim isn't just to out said imaginary role, but to attain information which is something badly needed given my the current situation.

On an unrelated note, are you ready to out your reads?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, I'll play out a situation for you to explain my reasoning behind thinking such role would have to be NK-Immune. Mafia think A looks town, mafia shoot A. A dies, A is said role that prevents mafia from cross-sparing. Mafia cross-spare until the game is over. This is an obvious scenario that RC would consider when making the setup, meaning if such role exists it has to be NK immune, it really does.

Apok, given that we now have: A Vig/Governor claim, A Rolecop claim, 2 Mason claims, A Treestump claim.
I highly doubt there's a doctor in the setup if all of this claims are real, if we do indeed have a doctor claim I'm more likely to believe that one of the claims above are fake, therefore by mass-claiming I'm able to better determine where the maifa lie.

[Duplicity]

Given the fact that IS's investigation was on Fishy, and that we have another town-power role stated I can agree the benefits of mass-claiming are reduced, however:

Given that we now have: A Vig/Governor claim, A Rolecop claim, 2 Mason claims, A Treestump claim.
I highly doubt there's a doctor in the setup if all of this claims are real, if we do indeed have a doctor claim I'm more likely to believe that one of the claims above are fake, therefore by mass-claiming I'm able to better determine where the maifa lie.

If a doctor claim occurs we can safely put a second vote on IS and have him investigate tonight as well as knowing that one of the above claims is likely fake. If no doctor claims we know that IS is likely dead tonight thus having no need to place a second vote on him.

[Duplicity]

Maybe it's some restriction of the mafia. Maybe at least one mafia has to be spared by some non-mafia member.

Would be far too obvious to notice, would almost mean that it's impossible for Vezo and Nacho to be mafia.

Maybe if they all cross-spare, they get no NK.

They would still win the game by cross-sparing this way considering the fact that at least one town player would have to die every day then.

[Duplicity]

HOLY SHIT Dupe, did you just seriously say that we should flat out motherfucking the kill the DOCTOR?!?

DIE DIE DIE!

Please learn to read.

[Duplicity]

If you're attempting to say that you believe outting the doctor is a scum-tell I will just laugh, and if you're attempting to say there's a roleblocker I will laugh harder. If there's a roleblocker you would have been roleblocked last night, therefore we can rule out that possibilty.

If we do indeed have a doctor claim it would have to be one of the following people: Apok, Tony, Umbrage, Me. That's it, so lets consider these as P1, P2, P3, P4 and let P1 be the doctor.

If we lynch P2 and P3 today.
If P1 dies at night, you check either Vezo/Nacho.

This means tommorow the following people would be alive:
IS, P4, Vezo, Nacho, Fishy.

You would either have:
A) A clearance on Vezo/Nacho therefore clearing them both while still having a clearance on Fishy meaning P4 would have to be the last scum to you, win.
B) A guilty on Vezo/Nacho meaning you would know both of the remaining mafia, win.

[Duplicity]

Please just read my last post, read it a few times and you'll find that you agree with me.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, you read my last post as well. Relatiate to that if you believe it's incorrect otherwise fucking stop annoying me about how MC is bad.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, please respond to this post. It proves that if there's doctor claiming now should lead to an automatic win, if there's no doctor claim it proves that there's no reason behind putting a second spare vote on IS.

[Duplicity]

Your plan doesn't take into account the fact that there's likely no doctor in the game and that IS will die tonight leaving you with close to nothing tommorow.

[Duplicity]

You've stated you have a town-read on IS already. I've stated I have a town-read on IS. If we both have strong town-reads than there's no reason behind not following what I've stated already.

With that said, heck how will him checking you prove his claim, he will just say VT and will be right about 90% of the time given the current claims in the thread.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, scum will shoot him regardless if they think there's a doctor or not, it's the only chance they have in winning.

If there's a doctor then yes we automatic win, but that's the same thing as doctor claiming out loud now which would also be automatic win.
If there's no doctor, he dies and we've wasted a second spare vote on him.

[Duplicity]

Apok. I'm attempting to say that there's no fucking reason to put a second vote on IS because I believe the likelyhood of him dying tonight is massive, I've said that the entire fucking day. That's why I want a mass-claim, if there's a doctor claim I would happily place my spare vote on him and accept death to what I believe would be an almost automatic win. If there's no doctor claim then we don't waste a fucking spare vote on something useless.

[Duplicity]

How do you know im going to die anyways Dupe? I didnt die last night and you showed absolutely no fear regarding my safety yesterday. Are you going to shoot me tonight Dupe? Maybe stab me in the heart? Strangle me in the dead of night? Is that it Dupe? Is that what youre trying to tell us? What are you trying to hide, Dupe? Afraid I may uncover something about you? Afraid im going to investigate you tonight?

Can you read the fucking post please.

[Duplicity]

No. Because by killing vezok, we learn Nacho's alignment. We either have confirmed town, or confirmed scum. If he's confirmed town, then scum will have to kill him, because confirmed town is more dangerous than any PR. Therefore IS lives another night, and we get another investigation.

You seem to be highly of the opinion that there is a doctor, wouldn't IS checking Vezo/Nacho therefore be more optimal?

There is only one reason you would want to conserve spare votes: you want to make sure somebody lives through the day. Who?

I had/have multiple town-reads, so yes after I finish rethinking through them I'm sure there will be somebody that I want to assure lives.

This is the best plan to get a town win.

Your plan completly ignores the fact that mafia don't have to follow through with it, considering the vig seems to be dead the risks of them doing their own thing is close to minimal.

[Duplicity]

That's not needed. Killing one of them confirms the other. IS can confirm himself and possibly somebody else. This gives the scum a really nasty piece of WIFOM of whom to kill, doctor or no.

Lets assume for a second that we follow your plan and lynch Vezo and msylnch with both of us flipping town. If there's no doctor IS dies tonight leaving Nacho and Fishy alive as clears with you, Tony and Apok as unclear, what do you do then?

And what if there isn't? What if there are two people you want to kill? Then you might as well give IS a spare vote. You must have a reason for denying him the vote NOW. What is it?

This will be decided upon finalization of my reads.

Your argument is basically "scum will screw it up". But there is nothing scum can do to destroy the plan. If IS is scum, we are covered. If Nacho and vezok are scum, we are covered. There are no holes.

You're just fearmongering. Try and point out specific ways the plan can fail. Because this isn't pro-town. Instead of addressing the problems and creating a solution that benefits town, your answer is 'why bother?'. Is that because the only way you can win as scum is by shooting down this plan before it takes off?

You want me to address the problems then sure I will. If Vezo and Nacho are scum, neither of them are going to be okay with the other one dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has already failed. If Vezo and Nacho are town, neither of them are going to be okay with someone they know is town for sure dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has failed already.

See the issue now?

I'm attempting to work out what mafias hinderance is, I have been for a long time and no one is attempting to assist me. There has to be something put in place to prevent this from happening and instead of bickering with me or attempting to ignore what I am saying I would appreciate if you discuss this with me logically.

[Duplicity]

RC, I apologise for this post but I really believe it's needed, I've attempted to stand back and refrain from hurling insults while watching pure stupidit but I won't do it any longer.

InternetStranger, I have never once said I want to stand back and let Nacho and Vezo glide through the game, I'm infact doing the opposite you dim witted piece of shit, I'm trying to work out if they're mafia what we fucking can do to preven them from cross-sparing. Now get of your fucking high horse moron and read my posts, surely the CK flip should have showed you how bad your performance is this game.

I know how painful IS can frustrate a person from first hand experience, so I'm going to allow this.

[Duplicity]

You're missing a few major factors IS, mafia would already know what is preventing them from cross-sparing otherwise this setup would be pointless.

As for there being town roles to prevent mafia from doing so in this post I discussed and went into detail about how if such role exists it would have to be night-kill immune, read it and tell me if you agree or disagree.

As for mass-claim outing important roles, the only role that would be important right now is doctor, and in this post I go into detail about how a doctor claim now would lead to an automatic win if we were to find a way to prevent mafia cross-sparing.

Therefore you saying mass-claim is harmful and not helpful is obviously incorrect, if there's some part of this logic you disagree with state so rather than attempting to start an entire smear campagin and attempt to misrepresent all of my posts.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, I've asked before, what is a deputy?

So you don't want IS to get a second spare vote, but you don't even know WHY you don't want him to get the second spare vote? Bullshit.

I don't want him to get a second spare vote because I believe he's highly likely to die tonight, I've said this so fucking many times.

Why? Why is it so important that you figure this out? Until we get a game over, there is obviously something preventing scum from doing this. I'm not worried about it. Nobody else is worried about it. WHY IS FINDING THE MECHANIC THAT STOPS SCUM CROSS-SPARING SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?

Simple. The only way to win is to lynch (Not spare) mafia, this can't be done if they just save each other, therefore I need to know how to stop them saving each other if I want them to die.

[Duplicity]

A deputy is someone who gets the results of a cop when the cop dies. If we have one then IS' death doesn't matter, we should still give him the extra spare vote.

Valid point, never heard of the role myself but that makes sense.

Yeah, right.

How would YOU be able to stop them?

Lying scum.

Die.

Do I even need to explain this? You're asking me why I would try to have mafia lynched?
"You win if the town eliminates all opposing factions."

[Duplicity]

Wait! What?

Dupe: How do you know scum know what keeps them from cross sparing?

If they didn't this game would be pointless, it would turn into a game of no information. On top of that I've gone into why I believe there's likely no town-powered role that prevents mafia from cross-sparing meaning the hinderance has to come on the mafias side, this is something they'd have to be aware of.

[Duplicity]

I want to know becuase it would give me a better read of both Nacho and Vezo.

Yesterday they both spared each other and neither of them were placed on the block nor did either of them die. Therefore the prevention is not "Mafia can't spare mafia" if they're both mafia. I see it being highly unlikely that there's a town-role that prevents them from cross-sparing at the moment, therefore I'm attempting to work out what would do so if they're mafia, right now I'm failing to see anything therefore my slight-town read on both of them.

Then that brings up the issue of if they're town, who's mafia? In which case I'm close to clueless. I have a strong town-read on Apok due to her interactions with TheMask yesterday. I believe IS is dumb, but town nevertheless and therefore Fishy is town via relation. That leaves on you and Tony and I see you both as an unlikely scum-team.

Still not seeing my main issue yet?

[Duplicity]

You want me to address the problems then sure I will. If Vezo and Nacho are scum, neither of them are going to be okay with the other one dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has already failed. If Vezo and Nacho are town, neither of them are going to be okay with someone they know is town for sure dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has failed already.

See the issue now?

[Duplicity]

What the hell happened to this game?

Simple. This game was only ever really played by IS, You, CK, Fate and myself. Fate and CK are dead. IS is waiting for responses from other players and you and IS have almost pissed me of to the point where I can't be fucked to help anymore, plus G still hasn't given me his reads.

[Duplicity]

Nacho, how about you actually take the time to read my ISO. Also, while you're at it read this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 62&start=0
You'll notice Umbrages rage and illogical rants are something he does as mafia therefore I'd like for you to explain your town-read on him considering the fact he's my only FoS at the moment.

[Duplicity]

Null tell. I rage in almost all my games.

Exactly my point.

And you wanted a massclaim in that game too...

Before I replaced into that game and knowing my role I PM'ed Implosion telling him about how mass-claim pretty much breaks that setup, which it would have if the town were smart enough to follow it.

[Duplicity]

1) That's something multiple players in the game did, don't see how it's a town-tell.
2) Apok was first to point it out not Umbrage.
3) Not exactly understanding that.

[Duplicity]

Yeah Nacho.. you might want to start keeping up with this thread a bit better.

Apok - Town.

Given Protoss's flip I'm more inclined to believe that Apokalytika is town, she brings up TheMasks cross-sparing with Nacho in this post. My town read on her is solidified in the post where she states approval of the idea of TheMask dying when no one else was even noticing him. On top of that, the fact that she didn't have that much of an issue with dying yesterday strikes me as a town-tell, especially when it would mean that two mafia were up for the lynch pool.

[Duplicity]

OR Post #274 where Apok state she wants TheMask to die.

[Duplicity]

She didn't not in that post, but if you consider stating of the cross-sparing a town-tell how do you not see a straight up request for TheMask to die as one?

[Duplicity]

Excuse the double negate it's early morning here. Still waiting on you to go through my ISO.

[Duplicity]

I will if you die and flip town. Otherwise, fuck that.

So you don't want to take the 20 minutes to read through my posts and see that I'm town? Such a player you are.

On a slightly unrelated note, I finally just had a conversation with G, we both have agreed upon a Tony+Umbrage partnership, will go into it more later when I'm not half asleep.

[Duplicity]

Heck, this is going to sound incredibly dumb but I'd rather air my thoughts at the current moment, G has stated slight approval over it but he seems to have gone afk at the moment.

I can see a possible IS/Fishy team as well.

1. Their roles would explain the prevention or hinderance mafia would have towards cross-sparing.
2. IS directed nothing at Fishy throughout the entirety of day one while stating suspicion of Nacho/Vezo/Me/Tony/Apok yet apparently checked Fishy over all of those mentioned.
3. IS claimed the second there was attention put towards Fishy would be explained by a possible defending of partner.
4. Would explain setup balance, I don't see 2 Masons, Vig/Governor, Treestump and Rolecop in a setup with what is likely only three mafia.
5. The fact that Fishys role makes no sense as town, if he lives to three way lylo it would become impossible for town to win, this however is easily explainable if there's another element to his role, buf if I understand Treestump correctly there isn't.
6. It would explain my town-reads on Tony/Apok earlier.

Edit: Nacho, you're going to look like an idiot when we flip town then.

[Duplicity]

Fishy dying would benefit town (if he can even be killed, I don't think tree stump roles can usually be killed). If he's town and we get to 3 players it's an automatic loss. Fishy has even mentioned that we can only really afford to let one player die today.

The masons obviously aren't dying. Would prefer letting tony or umbrage die today, we're pretty confident in Apok being town right now. As a matter of fact,

spare: apok

G.

[Duplicity]

Wha... wha...

How in the hell does Fishy's death benefit town? He's confirmed town! Even if he doesn't count for lylo purposes, why would you want him dead?

More of Duplicity's statements without logic.

He's not confirmed town. It's entirely possible his role could have been put in as a safeguard for mafia cross-sparing, though this seems unlikely to me. What is confirmed is that his role is fairly anti-town, seeing as on lylo his role causes automatic town loss, since he counts as a player but can't actually spare anyone. The last town player can't vote to spare themself, scum won't spare a town player, which means scum win. We let two town players die today, and this scenario is inevitable, barring any hidden power roles. Hence, scum aren't going to kill him, although like I said it's doubtful he can even die if being a tree stump in this game works like in any other game.

For statements without logic how about "omg masons are fake" or "chesskid must be a reverse death miller because he had to be scum"?

G.

[Duplicity]

InternetStranger - What led towards you checking Fishy over the multiple people you stated you FoS'ed?

Nacho, I meant it when I said I'm waiting for you to ISO our slot.

[Duplicity]

I didnt want the scum to kill my target, so I wasnt about to declare it in the thread of whom im going to investigate.

Never said you should, but you stated suspicion towards nearly everyone in the thread with the exception of Fishy, therefore it leads to the assumption that you had no qualms about Fishys allignment going into the night removing the need to check him. If you did infact suspect him yesterday I'd appreciate you going into what reasons that was because of in some detail.

Fishy's role was the second oddest role behind Chesskid and since CK flipped town, I might as well checkout Fishy and see what we are dealing with.

Are you attempting to say that you checked Fishy becuase CK was dead? CK wasn't dead when you made your check.

Dont worry Dupe, I wont give you a clue as to whos getting checked next. I wouldnt want you to kill them at night from under me.

Getting a bit fucking sick and tired of the smear campagin in every post of yours.

[Duplicity]

CK wasnt going to survive the game much longer anyways, due to either a NK if he was town or lynching soon after regardless of alignment. I know if CK was still alive day 2, I would have trusted him even less and gone after his lynching. So I wasnt going to waste my check on CK.

The only suspicion was that Fishy had a different role than everyone elses and I needed to rule him out as possible scum.

So the reason behind checking Fishy was entirely due to the fact he claimed a role that was different to everyone else? That's all you needed to say.

[Duplicity]

Wasnt that what I initially said? Either way, im still not saying who im checking next.

Not exactly what you said at all. Never said you should announce your checks, I just expect checks to be based upon suspicion of the player which I couldn't find in relation to You/Fishy when I read D1.

Morning Nacho, still refraining from attempting to read my slot?

[Duplicity]

Morning, and yes.
I explained my reasoning for doing so.

So if town loses this game due to selective re-reading you'll be comfortable openely taking responsibility and admitting to stupidity?

[Duplicity]

Don't worry. Town won't lose. Lynching scum you would make us win. You should try playing like town sometimes. It helps you win as scum you know?

Perhaps you should start learning how to play, it might make people want to policy lynch you less.

[Duplicity]

You're worse then the rumours state.

Vezo, if you want to improve at this game, re-read throughout the entire thread, type up what posts make you believe someone is mafia/town then post it here.

[Duplicity]

Humour me, name a specific post and explain how it makes you believe I'm mafia.

While you're at it, state and explain your reads on Tony, Umbrage, InternetStranger and Fishy.

[Duplicity]

Ok.
Fishy is town. If you can't see how an unkillable scum breaks the game you should stop playing.
IS is likely town. He can still be scum but from his post I think he is town.
Umbrage rages as town more often than as scum. He is town.
Tony is null.

Also I like how you let out Apok. That's your scumbuddy or what?

1. Fishys role breaks the game as town as well, if he's even alive in a 3 way lylo it's impossible for town to win.
2. Umbrage "Rages more as town than as scum" becuase the likelyhood of drawing town over scum is higher, he rages regardless of allignment, therefore it's a null-tell.
3. I can agree with Tony being null.
4. I have a strong town-read on Apok due to her interaction with Mask/Protoss, that's why I left her out.

[Duplicity]

Yes.

Never said it was anything other than a null-tell.

[Duplicity]

There we go, jesus christ claiming wasn't that hard was it. I believe Umbrage, I see no reason for him to fake-claim that as mafia and the role makes perfect sense as to what the counter of mafia cross-sparing is. Lets get this right:

Mason claims: Nacho, Vezo
Treestump claim: Fishy
Rolecop claim: InternetStranger
Backup vig claim: Umbrage
Unclaimed: Tony, Apok, Duplicity

Umbrages town makes him close to confirmed town, I still see no way that Apok is mafia, Fishy please explain your case against her. There is literally zilch way that Apok and Tony are scum together, this leaves the potential teams being:

Vezo + Nacho - Makes sense to a degree however I buy their mason claim.
InternetStranger + Fishy - Could be paranoia speaking but I actually think this is the case.
InternetStranger + Tony - I can see this being the case as well.

We now can afford to have two people lynched because if anyone blitzes near the deadline Umbrage can just shoot them. If Vezo flips town I see no way that IS is legit, I really don't. I'd appreciate it if you shot IS if Vezo flips town today.

Also note:
Fishy says in #1082 "Duplicity, you're probably scum, so don't worry, you can carry on voting whoever the fuck you like."
Fishy says in #1019 "Duplicity doesn't feel like scum. As scum, I probably wouldn't be fighting against the masons - it's a tough way to go."

Note the obvious contradiction.

[Duplicity]

I'm going to go into my reads in my next post sometime in the next 28 hours but I'll state a summary here:

Umbrage is town. I see no way for him to be mafia with his claim at all, if he is he'd be confirmed tonight regardless. Vezo and Nacho are town. Fishy explains this perfectly in his post, I see no real way they're mafia. Apok is town. I see no possible way she's mafia given her calmness on the lead up the lynch yesterday.

That leaves IS, Tony and Fishy. If you're going to lynch me I request that you lynch or shoot one or both of these, fairly sure that should end the game.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, I'd appreciate if you take this question seriously.

If Vezo and I both flip town which to be honest is what's going to occur who do you think the mafia pair would be?

[Duplicity]

Read Vezos fucking post, how much more obvious does it have to be that there are fucking masons and both are town.

[Duplicity]

Best guess? Tony and Apok. But I'll be dead tonight anyway, so it's out of my hands.

Read this and this it should be enough proof that Tony+Apok aren't a scum-team.

So I'm going to ask you again, when both Vezo and I flip town who is scum?

[Duplicity]

If you and Duplicity die and THROUGH SOME MIRACLE flip town, I will kill Apok, Tony, whoever the hell you want. Then, with IS' role, a town victory is practically guaranteed.

When I die and flip town will you promise to shoot who G and I decide upon, no questions asked. If so then I have no problem dying today.

Fishy is town. Treestump is a town role. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see NO evidence that he does not count for endgame purposes.

Lets look at a scenario. Three way lylo. Mafia, Town Fishy and Townie #2.
Mafia no spares. Fishy can't spare, doesn't have the ability to do so. Townie #2 can either spare Town Fishy or the mafia. Regardless of which occur mafia win.

[Duplicity]

The same happens with Two mafia, two towns and fishy.

That's why there's the inclusion of a back-up vig, the vigs job is to take out Fishys role, the idea of a VT becoming the vig when the vig dies is so that town are never in a position where they can never win.

[Duplicity]

Where does it say he can't be killed? Link me please.

[Duplicity]

He's a god damn treestump.

Tree stumps can't be lynched or NKed.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tree_Stump
You are indeed correct. My apologies.

In that case the scumteam is Tony+IS. Lynch me and Tony, when Tony flips scum and I flip town shoot IS tonight.

[Duplicity]

I'm becoming increasingly more comfortable with this plan.

Umbrage, if Tony flips scum today you better shoot IS. If it's not IS then Fishy, Nacho and Vezo are completly cleared as are you by the kill meaning Apok would become confirmed mafia.

[Duplicity]

Vezo, we can only kill two people today. I'm telling you right now the scumteam isn't Apok/Tony and I'm town so you've got a read incorrect somewhere.

As long as both IS and Tony die at some point today/tonight I feel safe enough getting lynched to still have it result in a town-win.

[Duplicity]

I know, I know. The thing is you four guys are the only unconfirmed people.

As long as we kill two of you today and umbrage shoots another tomorrow is a guaranteed win.

So to reaffirm you're fine with TM+Me lynched and IS shot tonight. Correct?

[Duplicity]

Nacho ------> Spares Vezo.
Vezo ------> Spares Nacho.
Umbrage ------> Spares Apok.
Apok ------> Spares InternetStranger.
InternetStranger ------> Spares Umbrage.
Tony ------> Spares InternetStranger
Duplicity ------> Spares Umbrage.
Fishy ------> Spares No one.

This prevents mafia attempting to do any funny unvoting of Umbrage business near the deadline.

Any qualms?

[Duplicity]

Nacho ------> Spares Vezo.
Vezo ------> Spares Nacho.

Umbrage ------> Spares IS.
Apok ------> Spares IS.
InternetStranger ------> Spares Umbrage.
Tony ------> Spares Apo
Duplicity ------> Spares Umbrage.
Fishy ------> Spares No one.

Works for me.

Spare: Umbrage

[Duplicity]

If Tony unspares Apok last minute forcing Apok+Me to get lynched he confirms himself as mafia. Meaning, if Tony moves his vote away from Apok, Umbrage shoots him tonight and town lynch IS tommorow.

[Duplicity]

I've answered the question. Now it's your turn. If you both flip town, who do you think is scum?

If Vezo flips town it's either IS+Tony or IS+Fishy, said it multiple times.

Townie and Scum die. Fishy is left alive. Town wins.

Wrong, the % of people needed to be save wouldn't be met, mafia would pick who lives would self-choose and win.

@ Duplicity: I'm really surprised that you are going along with IS' plan seeing as how it does NOT take into account an IS/Fishy team, which you have said is likely.

The plan involves Vezo/Nacho living, both are town how can I not go along with it. The plan also proves IS as mafia via flips, again another benefit.

Besides, you are missing a very important point: TONY HAS NOT CLAIMED.

I haven't claimed yet you're fine having me lynched, with that said I am indeed a VT so my death is fine.
Regardless this situation is easily dealt with.

Tony, Claim in your next post

.

vezok, on the other hand, is a safer kill. The less info we give scum, the better.

Vezo is also obvious town, blame me for the loss if I'm wrong but I would rather blitz save Vezo then let him die.

Duplicity and vezok die. I vig Tony. Everybody's happy.

You're a moron. Tony/IS need to die asap, not Vezo.

[Duplicity]

Not liking how Duplicity is assuming vezok/Nacho are town. They are UNCONFIRMED. Only through death can one of them become CONFIRMED.

Unconfirmed means jack shit. You're unconfirmed as well, yet I don't want you to get voted do I?

If you're attempting to make out that you beleive my assurance in my reads is a scum-tell, then honestly I don't give a fuck because you're lynching me today regardless. Just trust my reads when I die and flip town for god sake.

[Duplicity]

Fishy and IS are scum with each other or both are town.

Wrong.

Fishy is scum with IS or Fishy is town. IS can be scum with Tony while Fishy is still town.

I've said it multiple times already, I'm not letting Vezo/Nacho die when they're incredibly obviously masons, I'll go into my reasoning behind why I'm so sure later. Tony needs to die today he really does, if he dies and flips mafia IS becomes confirmed mafia. If he dies and flips town Apok essentially becomes clear.

I'm about to drift of to sleep. I'll elaborate in the morning.

[Duplicity]

Lets compromise Umbrage. We lynch Tony and Me.

If Tony and Me both flip town you shoot whoever the fuck you want, if this causes the town lose the responsibility in on your head.

If Tony flips mafia you have to shoot IS.


Deal?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage. Listen here.

If Vezo and Nacho were mafia they obviously wouldn't unspare each other, therefore if they're scum you'd have to NK them, correct?
If Vezo and Nacho are town which they are, they obviously wouldn't unspare each other becuase they know for a fact the other one of them is town and want mafia to die. In other words. Nacho and Vezo aren't going to follow through with your stupid plan. The scum is either IS/Fishy or IS/Tony.

Fucking lynch Tony and Me.

If Tony flips scum, game over his partner has to be Apok or IS, you shoot IS at night autowin. No complains.
If I flip scum, which I won't, my partner would have to be Apok or IS, you shoot IS at night autowin. No complaints.

If Tony and I both flip town the only partnerships left are:

1. IS/Apok - This isn't it, fairly positive on that.
2. IS/Fishy - If Tony flips town this is it.
3. Nacho/Vezo - I would bet my life this isn't the case.

Meaning, if both Tony and I flip town you shoot either IS becuase he's in 1 and 2 or you shoot Nacho and Vezo.

In other fucking words. You have three shots to win the game.

1. The lynch on me, if I'm mafia which I'm not you autowin.
2. The lynch on Tony, if he's mafia you autowin.
3. The vig shot on either IS or Vezo tonight, if you shoot right it's autowin.

So stop being a fucking moron, please.

[Duplicity]

Less caps spam, less rage.

Explain your plan step by step.

[Duplicity]

Add Tony/IS to the possible team list. You'd have to shoot IS over Fishy becuase the only way Fishy can be mafia is with IS, however IS can be mafia with Tony.

Meaning it would turn into:
Lynch: Vezo (Town), Duplicity (Town)
Vig shoot: IS. (Scum)
Mafia shoot: Umbrage.

Leaving the following people alive:
-Fishy. (Unclear, possible maf)
-Tony. (Unclear, possible maf)
-Apok. (Unclear but unlikely maf)
-Nacho. (Clear)

See the issue? This is the scenario we're going to arrive at.

[Duplicity]

I just went for a run and realized if we follow the plan listed below it should be automatic win. Umbrage, this means you'll need to take a step back and read through it carefully.

Today we lynch: Duplicity, InternetStranger.
Possible scenarios caused:

1. Duplicity flips mafia, InternetStranger flips town.
Nacho, Fishy and Vezo would be clear. The remaning unclears would be Apok and Tony. Vig one, lynch the other, automatic win.

2. Duplicity flips town, InternetStranger flips mafia.
Nacho and Vezo would be clear. The remaning unclears would be Apok, Tony and Fishy. Vig Fishy, lynch Tony. Only way we lose is if it's InternetStranger+Apok, otherwise automatic win.

3. Duplicity flips town, InternetStranger flips town.
Fishy is clear. The remaining unclears would be Apok and Tony. Vezo and Nacho. We've all agreed the scumteam isn't Apok/Tony, therefore mafia would be Vezo and Nacho, shoot one, lynch other automatic win.

[Duplicity]

Oh and becuase I know InternetStranger is going to chuck a whole "YOU WANT TO KILL THE COP" rant.InternetStranger, if you're town which I highly doubt you are the only possible teams that could occur for town to lose in this situation are:

1. InternetStranger+Apok ------> Which to you is impossible.
2. Tony+Apok -----------------> You state you believe I'm mafia. You state you believe the masons are fake. Therefore you think they're town.
3. Umbrage+Apok --------------> You state you think that Umbrage is town, no issue here for you.
4. Umbrage+Tony---------------> You state you think that Umbrage is town, no issue here for you.

[Duplicity]

IS, if Vezo/Nacho are scum this plan leads to automatic win. Learn to read.

[Duplicity]

I just went for a run and realized if we follow the plan listed below it should be automatic win. Umbrage, this means you'll need to take a step back and read through it carefully.

Today we lynch: Duplicity, InternetStranger.
Possible scenarios caused:

1. Duplicity flips mafia, InternetStranger flips town.
Nacho, Fishy and Vezo would be clear. The remaning unclears would be Apok and Tony. Vig one, lynch the other, automatic win.

2. Duplicity flips town, InternetStranger flips mafia.
Nacho and Vezo would be clear. The remaning unclears would be Apok, Tony and Fishy. Vig Fishy, lynch Tony. Only way we lose is if it's InternetStranger+Apok, otherwise automatic win.

3. Duplicity flips town, InternetStranger flips town.
Fishy is clear. The remaining unclears would be Apok and Tony. Vezo and Nacho. We've all agreed the scumteam isn't Apok/Tony, therefore mafia would be Vezo and Nacho, shoot one, lynch other automatic win.

Umbrage, read this

The only way we can lose in this to you is if the teams are the following:

1. Apok + IS, but you just said it's impossible for IS to be scum with anyone but Fishy, therefore you should have no issue here.
2. Tony+Apok, which you've stated is not the case yourself.

[Duplicity]

It can't apok + IS.

Following the plan we lynch IS. There is no way IS is still alive.

Correct but this would occur:
Die today: IS+Duplicity.
Die tonight: Fishy+Umbrage.
Die tommorow: Tony.
Die tommorow night: Nacho.
People alive = Apok, Nacho.

Therefore this plan means we lose if Apok+IS are scum, which I highly highly doubt.

[Duplicity]

DONT YOU PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You dont even know what I have planned for my investigation.

My mantra is covering all of the bases. Apparently you know who the scum are, I dont (yet). Dont you think that im about to investigate somebody amongst whoever is left? If its Nacho/Vezo, we are covered. If its you and a partner, ill find the either the partner or the innocent, we win. Or if its neither, ill find the scum regardless and hopefully Umbrage shoots the other.

When the fuck did I say any combination is impossible? Thats BULLSHIT. You are the one saying Apok/Tony is impossible, which is garbage.

Whatever. Im not going to let you troll me. See you at deadline.

Tell me what possible way we lose by following the plan I just created? If you think it's Vezo/Nacho, they're dealt with by Umbrage if you flip town.

[Duplicity]

LOL.
You're attempting to make it out like I'm not dying for the town or compromising either. I'm fucking accepting the lynch becuase you fags don't know how to scumhunt for shit, all I ask is that you don't fuck the game up.

Umbrage, the idea of a vig was put in the setup to prevent mafia cross-sparing to the win. Correct?

Therefore it's the vigs job to take out the mafia when they cross-spare. Correct?

Therefore giving mafia a BP or Doctor means that the vig cannot do his job, so the vig is no longer able to prevent mafia cross-sparing to the win. Correct?

Therefore there's no scumdoctor or scumbp.

[Duplicity]

So you want to deviate from logic and optimal play just because you believe RC is a bastard mod?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage.

IS had to come into today with a report. If he stated a guilty we would let IS+His guilty die for a guarenteed one mafia. Therefore scumIS cannot fake a guilty.

This means scum IS has to fake an innocent.

[Duplicity]

He claimed role cop. He could've said he couldn't pick up alignment. He could've given a role unspecific to any alignment. Or, he could've not claimed at all. That would have been the smart move. Because that's a really stupid thing to do as scum. It's dumb to fake a cop, either you get yourself lynched or you confirm a bunch of townies. He had absolutely no reason to claim. He had no reason to clear Fishy.

Fine, I could see him being scum with Fishy, OK? But TONY? He came way to close to killing him yesterday. Not to mention that whenever you put out a plan that says Tony dies, IS jumps all over it.

I can agree claiming cop as scum is bad, but he claimed cop in an attempt to throw dirt at CK to get him lynched, I can see scum motivation behind that.

I have however been reading back recently and I actually do agree with you to an extent, I'm seeing Tony/IS a lot less likely now.

[Duplicity]

How the hell does that make sense? 'CK3 can't be a vig because I'm a cop'? If you're talking about him proposing to investigate CK3, well that's moot, since if scum, HE KILLED CK3.

Are you forgetting the whole "CKs role has to be fake because he says he needs two vote to survive, I'm a rolecop and I don't need two votes to survive, so he's fake" occurance?

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, If we were trying to save ourselves, we'd be begging to try to get a spare vote. Nothing to hide here. Regfan will probably be relieved to not have to argue with you anymore. Just shoot true or it's game over.

Nacho: What if the mechanic stopping scum from cross-sparing is a vig that passes on his powers after death, what then. what then.

-G.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage: IS or Fishy needs to either die today or tonight. One of the two, which one is your choice but one of the two better occur.

[Duplicity]

My bad, I'll try to from now on RC.

Umbrage, move your vote to Apok, at the current moment mafia get to pick who lives/dies.

[Duplicity]

This is honestly pathetic to observe.

Umbrage. You say I'm mafia thus you want me dead. I accept the death because I know that it'll be in the best interest of the town in the end. So please, for the love of god shoot IS or Fishy when I flip town, of the two you can pick which one.

Also Umbrage, if you thought I was mafia wouldn't you be attempting to get someone else to spare vote you because you'd be worried I would unspare at the last second causing you to die? Seriously, the fact I'm telling you this right now should be enough proof that I'm town and that IS needs to die.

[Duplicity]

I really don't have the energy to continue aruging with you about my allignment. I have no issues being lynched today but as a favour to me when I flip town can you not shoot Vezo/Nacho tonight and instead shoot IS.

[Duplicity]

Alright. In that case, Vezo and Nacho one of you two need to unspare the other if you want town to have any chance at winning. It needs to be in the next hour as well.

Vezo or Nacho change to Tony

Umbrage, you better shoot IS tonight if this occurs.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, would he REALLY unspare his partner here if they were mafia?

Surely that right there should be enough proof that Vezo/Nacho are town.

[Duplicity]

I too am heading of and likely won't be back before the deadline. I may as well restate my reads now:

Apok - Town.
Nacho - Town.
Vezo - Town.
Umbrage - Town.
IS - Scum.
Fishy - Leaning Scum.
Tony - Leaning Scum

Good luck. Oh and for the love of god if you don't shoot IS tonight I will hunt you down Umbrage.

[Duplicity]

yeah I have to agree that I didn't find this mechanic particularly fun to play with, sorry