Mini 1148 -- Spare Me Mafia (Game Over)

[Freewill]

/confirm time to rock and roll.

[Freewill]

Okay. Time to get serious and stop forgetting to check my

alt

game. Subscription is ON, doods.

But whatever. The game now has two parts:

Chesskid acting dumb and unlychable or something like that (and the subsequent reactions to it)
And Fishy's new role claim.

What to do, what to do.

@Fishy: if you're going to claim that shit, claim it. Otherwise you're anti-town and making our life harder. And I don't like when life is hard.

[Freewill]

Oh and

Mod: In addition to a "Not Voting" section, can we get a "Not Voted For" section?

That can be arranged.

[Freewill]

Spare: vezo

Not particularly townie to me, but it's the only way to get pressure on some of these other jokers.

[Freewill]

This setup doesn't work unless scum have some pretty gnarly restrictions or town has some pretty potent powers. Think of it this way: scum cross-votes each other and so long as they can avoid a vig shot, which they don't even know exists, they win. I don't think the game would be designed where a vig was the only one who could prevent a town loss and lynches were impossible.

Chesskid needing two votes doesn't seem like a good way to address that, but there may be more going on there.

So chesskid is most likely scum.

AND THAT'S HOW SETUP SPEC IS DONE, Y'ALL. THEORY WITHOUT APPLICATION IS MASTURBATION.

[Freewill]

vig here, assholes

And you claim you need two votes to survive? or to use it?

Or did you just want to say the vig SHOULD vig you?

[Freewill]

Hold on a sec. It seems like some people are advocating that we leave more than one person unsaved at the end of the day. Please explain yourself if this is true. This includes you, Fishy.

[Freewill]

you're not really as subtle as you think you are... you can kill me if you want, but you'll only have tears for it... if you're town.

[Freewill]

GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE

I DONT WANT YOU TROLLING THE REASON I SIGNED UP FOR THIS GAME

WE ARE DOING THIS. Although I should point out that I signed up after you did.

I don't care what you call me, but I would like to know whether you're really advocating we leave more than one person unsaved. You know that's super anti-town, right?

[Freewill]

Hold on a sec. It seems like some people are advocating that we leave more than one person unsaved at the end of the day. Please explain yourself if this is true. This includes you, Fishy.

Er... yeah. So. The town generally kills the scum by

lynching

them. The more lynches we get, the more likely we are to lynch scum. Letting as many people as possible die is having as many lynches as possible. Which is a good thing.

Except that's not how it works, unless I am missing something:

All players who are subject to elimination will go through a resolution process, and, if the safety threshold is still not met, then a random anti-town player will be given free rein to secretly spare players of his choice until the threshold is met. Random.org would be used to calculate which player will get this opportunity. Deadline specifics will be discussed in greater detail below.

[Freewill]

Bah. Nevermind.

[Freewill]

Okay. I misread that. We get 3 tonight we can put without anti-town getting a choice. But still... the "resolution phase" isn't really explained. Just because we can do 3 players today, that doesn't necessarily mean we get three lynches, does it?

[Freewill]

WHAT IN GOD'S (The non-omniscient type) NAME ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? UNO: THAT POST IS GOOD SETUP SPECULATION BECAUSE HIS CLAIM DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE. DOS: AGREEING WITH SOMETHING DOESN'T MAKE IT WRONG. TRES: SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED.

[Freewill]

you're not really as subtle as you think you are... you can kill me if you want, but you'll only have tears for it... if you're town.

OH SO NOW HES A SK? WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TRYING TO SAY HERE?

YOU KNOW HE HAS A KILL, BECAUSE YOURE SCUM AND BELIEVE HIS CLAIM.


AND YOURE LIKE "OH SHIT HES GONNA KILL ME"

SO YOU SAY "YOU CAN KILL ME BUT YOU SHOULDNT CUZ YOULL CRY, BUT WAIT YOULL ONLY CRAY

IF

YOURE TOWN"

NICE FENCE-SIT. LOOKS LIKE YOU COULD GET BEHIND A CHESSKID LYNCH TODAY COULDNT YOU?

I DON'T BELIEVE HIS CLAIM. I BELIEVE HE HAS A KILL.

[Freewill]

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE IS AT THIS POINT AND NEITHER DO YOU. BUT MY BEST GUESS IS THAT HE'S ANTI-TOWN WITH A KILL. PERHAPS HE'S SCUM WITH A SPARE KILL IF HE EVER ACHIEVES 2 SAVE VOTES, I DON'T KNOW.

by the way, i only have a couple of minutes left before I have to get off. put in your shots now or it'll have to wait until later.

[Freewill]

time's up. you can rage later.

[Freewill]

Thank god for good sense.

Why do people let the dufus play his little spiteful role. Even if he's town (which, as I've said, is doubtful) he's not making choices based on whether someone's town or not (his bravado aside). He's making it based on personal animosity. And I don't give two shits whether he's hard to read or not. Some asshole plays anti-town, he gets lynched. That's not just for meta reasons (those these are good too), it's because that type of bullshit snowballs within the game and just taints everything.

[Freewill]

Don't you dare start calling names

I have limits.

You have limits of what? The character you play is clearly fabricated. Don't act like a jerk and then cry when someone calls you one.

[Freewill]

Isn't that exactly the opposite of what you argued before about chesskid, Fate?

Anyway, remember that "duel" you thought we were having, Fate? The one you claimed victory over? I win when you're proven wrong. Of course, I'd rather not have to go through that trouble until later, but no matter. It seems there's some consensus on the issue. Maybe that'll change before the end of the day, but if not, I suggest taking a look at the people who have stayed well away from getting involved about me, duplicity, chesskid or umbrage. I sense some serious lurker scum going on.

[Freewill]

OH SO YOUR BUDDIES ARE LURKING?

THANKS FOR TELLING ME.

YES JUST CALL THE DUEL WON AND DONT TRY TO REFUTE ANY POINTS

THE FACT THAT YOU TALK TO ME AS IF IM TOWN IS AS DAMNING AS IT GETS

HEH

HEAHEAHHA

NAME YOUR POINTS OR GET LOST

[Freewill]

Here's a question for you, Fate: Are you sure you aren't reading me as such scum because you were determined to win some sort of battle with me? Search your feelings, Fate. You know it is true.

As for the replacement shenanigans, they need to stop. Not for in-game reasons, but because it's a pretty shitty way to treat the community.

Anyway, it's clear a CK lynch isn't happening, Umbrage. You could convince 80% of the people in this game that he's scum, but if you don't get the other 20%, he's not getting lynched. So let's move on. Beyond CK, who would you say is most likely scum, Umbrage?

[Freewill]

God fucking damn it vezok is town. He just jumped up to near Umbrage status though for uselessness.


UMRABE FOR THE LAST TIME YOU WORTHLESS FUCK:

WHY IS CHESSKID SCUM

BESIDES

"LOLLOLOL LEMME OUTGUESS THE SETUP AND SAY HIS ROLE CANT WORK IF TOWNLOLOLOLOLOLOL"

FOR
FUCKS

SAKE

FREE
W
ILL

IS

SCUM.

APOK IS
BUDDY

You can repeat things over and over, but it doesn't make them more true.

[Freewill]

Freewill has to die, yeah. I was hoping he would perish through the fire and the flames, but a quiet strangling is alright too, I suppose.
CK is either going to shoot some scum with that crackheaded gut of his, draw the NK, or draw the RBer. All very good things.


Mask sparing me is good. Why would I disapprove of a save on town?
I don't think his one post of substance has been thoroughly scummy.

Justify yourself then. Why do you feel strongly about me dying? I'm okay with dying, but I don't want to do so without making you say something other than nothingness bluster. Nacho ain't being honest here.

And I think Tony is scum.

Someone mentioned why I haven't taken my vote off of vezok. I guess there's no real reason except that those who I'd prefer stay alive over vezok are all safe already. That's the difficulty with the setup: there will be people who have to vote their fourth worst scum read or whatever.

[Freewill]

your attempts to tunnel on me are reading lamer and lamer, Fate. My only problem is that I don't know if that's because you're scum with what you think is a good reason to go after me without attracting attention or if it's because you've convinced yourself that I'm scum because I'm your polar opposite. Because really, you can't understand the reasoning behind my vote behind vezok when I just explained it? Does this need to be in caps for you to understand it?

MY CHOICE IS BETWEEN VEZOK, DUPLICITY, APOK GAND TONYMONTANA. IS IT REALLY THIS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO GET IT? REALLY SO HARD TO BELIEVE THAT I WOULD PREFER VEZOK TO DUPLICITY AND TM? IT'S NOT LIKE I GET TO CHOOSE BETWEEN VEZOK AND INTERNET STRANGER OR SOMETHING. YOU NEED TO THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT HOW THIS SETUP WORKS AND THE IMPLICATIONS THAT HAS ON SCUMHUNTING.

Get it now?

[Freewill]

OH LOOK

FENCE SIT ON MY ALIGNMENT

DERPHERPATEHEEEEEEEEE

WHY DO YOU PREFER VEZOK TO DUPLIC? MAKES NO SENSE

OHWAITURSCUM

I prefer vezok to duplic because vezok reads earnest if extremely annoying, and to me that's actually a fairly good town tell.

[Freewill]

Question for everyone: do you really expect three people to die from today's lynch?

[Freewill]

All players need at least one spare vote to be spared,

but the more spare votes a player has, the less of a chance he stands at getting eliminated.

After one of these two events occur, the game will go into its twilight phase, and all players without votes are then

subject

to elimination.

I know, i know. Outguessing the mod, but:

I admit this is reading between the lines a bit, but it seems to me that the mod is indicating something less than everyone will be lynched at the deadline. I don't know, of course, but my point is kind of the same: neither does anyone else. In fact, I think I've got more to convince me that it won't happen that way than I do that it will. Might as well try asking though. The rules are unclear, and I don't know if that's by design or accident.

Mod: When the deadline is reached and the number of people saved is above the threshold, do all of the non-saved players get lynched?

They're gone unless the player has a role condition or faces a role action that would otherwise prevent them from being eliminated.

[Freewill]

Its clearly in the OP you fuckin scumbag. Scared much?

1. You ignored IS's points

2. Then show me where it says it.

[Freewill]

that's what i meant

[Freewill]

Also get him to answer where exactly it "clearly" says it in the OP while you're at it, Umbrage.

[Freewill]

meh. maybe not. he should still answer it or admit he was wrong. The point is, people keep assuming three will die today at the lynch, but I don't think that's something we can safely assume. The rules indicate otherwise... why would they say "subject to elimination" rather than "eliminated," for example? What would the purpose behind the rule of more votes, less chance to get eliminated?

This isn't meant to be a trivial point. I think scum may have been willing to push this idea that we get three lynches because they may have some influence over who actually gets eliminated.

[Freewill]

Besides, I find it very weird that the setup is DESIGNED to make us wait until the deadline to play optimally.

[Freewill]

. During the first day, there's a safety threshold of 75%. This means that 75% of the living players must be spared before going into the night phase. This safety threshold will be lowered by at least 5% everyday.

AKA PRETTY CLEAR THAT IF 75% HAVE TO LIVE THEN 25% GET TO FUCKIN DIE.

YEAH IS YOUR TAUNTS DONT PHASE ME. SO IM OUT OF WITTICIMS BECAUSE IT WAS LATE AND DERP.

UMBRAGE, I WANT CHESSKID DEAD TO KILL FREE WILL, WHERES MY SPARE VOTE EVEN AT?

Nowhere in that does it say that all of those unsaved will be eliminated.

[Freewill]

To elaborate... your logic is flawed, Fate. Just because A=1 doesn't mean that Not A is not 1. Here, just because 75% are "saved" doesn't mean that 25% are eliminated. In fact, the rules suggest otherwise.

[Freewill]

So what will thye be?


IF they aren't SPARED, then they die.

COMMON FUCKIN SENSE

If they aren't spared they are SUBJECT TO ELIMINATION, just like the rules say. What that entails is unclear. It could be that mafia have a say in it. It could mean that one person is randomly selected from those players. It could mean that all are eliminated, I just don't know. And neither do you.

[Freewill]

Wicked comeback, Fate. Just admit you're wrong, and we can move on. You can even keep up the Freewill-is-scum campaign, but you must realize that you're actually wrong here. It may be as you say, but you don't know it for a fact.

Why do you think we have BANKABLE deadlines and no way to end the day early except by not-saving a single person? Maybe RedCoyote thought it would be a big laugh to make us sit through days of pseudo-twilight? Or what? Why do you think he says subject to elimination rather than simply say that those not saved are eliminated?

[Freewill]

Damn, Freewill, dont give up. Fate is slapping you around, but dont let him get you down. You can do it Freewill! Do it!

Why would I? I'm correct in this statement: Neither Fate nor anyone else, unless it says so in their Role PM, knows whether everyone not saved will be lynched or not. Just because Fate is willing to say he "knows" something doesn't make it more correct.

Those who are willing to be swayed by Fate's bluster are either lazy or incapable of logical reasoning.

[Freewill]

First, I'm okay with not-saving multiple people today if for no other reason than to figure out where we stand, even if that means not saving me. I'd rather hear from the mod and see if he can clarify, but notwithstanding that, I'm okay doing multiples.

Second, Let's say you're right for the moment, Fate. That it should be obvious to anyone reading the rules that not saved = lynched. RedCoyote should have no problem confirming that fact, right? If he made it that obvious.

Third, I don't think you give the mod enough credit in designing this game. I don't really know RC, but I do make the assumption he isn't one to just throw a game together willy-nilly.

Fourth, name your "fullproof" information you currently have. So far you have not done so.

[Freewill]

Waiting on you, Fate.

[Freewill]

1. I haven't claimed anything except that I have nothing in my Role PM that tells me how the lynch mechanic actually works
2. Good. Then hopefully he'll do that and he'll either confirm you're right or wrong and this whole conversation won't matter.
3. I have no idea if that's true, but this seems more than just an interaction thing. It seems like it'd have to be a major oversight.
4. Are you shitting me? Foolproof (or "fullproof" if you must) anything isn't your opinion of something; it isn't your guess. Regardless, humor me. What are those things you're adding together? Each time you answer with an evasion of what your actual source of confidence is, you make yourself look more foolish and more like a blowhard without any basis for his opinions other than a large ego, a desire never to admit fault, and an ability to talk in ALL CAPS.

[Freewill]

1. You've claimed you're ok with dying, WHOOPS you're locked into a VT claim now.
2. Oh it will matter, because its you distracting the thread with mechanic BULLSHIT when its already as clear as day.
3. Its not a major oversight, as the game isn't completely ruined at all by it.
4. 75% must be spared before the game can go into night, if they ARENT then people are spared by anti-town

until the fucking threshold is reached

What then cowboy? WHAT FUKIN THEN? The threshold is reached, but HURR DURR only one dies? NO EVERYONE WHO ISNT SAVED DIES THATS THE POINT OF THE FUCKING THRESHOLD YOU MORON

1. Maybe.
2. It isn't clear as day. And what am I distracting from exactly? Your amazing scum hunting?
3. No, but it sure doesn't look seamlessly designed when it occurs because it involves shooting the shit for days on end waiting for the deadline to finally be reached.
4. Are you kidding me? You really don't get this? Here's one possible setup with just four of many possible scenarios:

75% (then 70, then 65) threshold is a limit used to make sure that there are only X number of people on the table in any one day, making sure that we have to save more than just the two or three most town people every day.

A) At twilight X people are put into a random generator and one person is lynched.
B) At twilight X people are put to a scum role who gets to choose one person to be removed from random possiblity.
C) At twilight X people are put on the block and some sort of role hierarchy decides which is lynched.
D) At twilight all X people are lynched.

Each would work as a way of running this game, but A-C don't reward town for drawing out the day every single day.

I give examples because it's the easiest way to show that there are indeed other possibilities for the rule you're drawing on.

[Freewill]

Damn, Freewill! Fate just slapped you like a bitch!

How about you, IS. Do you think it's likely that we have a setup that, when played optimally, makes us wait until the deadline is reached each day AND has bankable deadlines?

[Freewill]

From YOUR amazing scumhunting, of which there is: NONE AT FUCKING ALL.

I'm done with this. No more IS cheerleading will provoke me either.

That comeback doesn't really apply. You're the one who accused me of distracting from whatever was going on in the game with this. The fact that I hadn't done any scum hunting only hurts your point.

[Freewill]

From YOUR amazing scumhunting, of which there is: NONE AT FUCKING ALL.

I'm done with this. No more IS cheerleading will provoke me either.

Also, I'll assume from this that you realized your foundation was shakier than you first thought, but it isn't in you to admit you were wrong about it. In that case, it's been nice doing business with you.

[Freewill]

Who do you think is better suited for it and isn't on there, Apok?

[Freewill]

What is this, seriously have you not even read the rules? If we're under the 75% then mafia will be able to decide which of those without a vote die, if we're over 75% then all of those without a vote die. That's really not hard to understand. Fishy says he talked to RC here to verifiy who would die if the day would end right now here.

Once again, you've assumed this last part. I agree with the first part. That's in the rules. But where's the part that says if we're over 75% then all of those without a vote die? That's not what it says. It says they're all "subject to elimination." Subject to elimination and eliminated may well be different things.

[Freewill]

I would be thoroughly satisfied with Mask dying. Also, you for admittedly not scumhunting and arguing about the lynch mechanics without even waiting for RC to answer your questions. In an ideal world, the non-spared list would read Freewill, Tony, and Mask.

Actually, looking at the last vote count, Mask is V/LA until after deadline. That's frustrating.

That's nice. I'm already on the chopping block though. What's your read on nacho?

[Freewill]

Freewill - Here you say Tony is mafia, what leads you to believe that? Also, if you believe there's no real alternative to Vezo to put your spare vote on, then why not refrain from placing it until one arrives. Which posts of Vezo before you placed your vote read as earnest if extremely annoying?

Sorry. I meant to respond but slipped my mind.

I believe tony is trying to slip under the radar. My opinion of that may change as time goes on and he's more in risk of being lynched though.

As for your second part, listen. Less than ideal people have to be saved. "Waiting" around for it to come along doesn't make much sense. If I think vezo is scummier than the people remaining, then I'll change my vote. A no vote right now doesn't do much good.

And as for Fishy... did he actually talk to RC to come to that conclusion? I'm not saying that he's saying he did and didn't really although that's a possibility. I'm saying that Fishy is saying he's clarifying what his role does. He may be under the same mistaken assumption. In other words, perhaps what he really is saying is that Apok, Duplo, and tony would be subject to elimination, but he paraphrased.

[Freewill]

I know. All I'm saying is that we don't know what actually went on there. Imagine the conversation:

Fishy: "Hey, red. If today ended right now, who would die?"
RC: "The three people who do not have save votes would be subject to elimination"

And we're back to square one. I don't know if that's what happened or not. I'm just saying it seems at least fairly likely that Fishy would get that and then interpret it the way many here have already.

[Freewill]

I have PMed him and asked him publicly. The only reason this became an issue is because fate started one of his things and I engaged because I think it's worthwhile to point out when someone is using faulty logic. I suggest reading it in context rather than just iso, though I know that takes more work.

But just to give you a taste of what actually happened:

[quote="Freewill]...thing about it maybe not having all people die, quoting the rules[/quote]

Its clearly in the OP you fuckin scumbag. Scared much?

and that was just the start.

[Freewill]

Umbrage - Are you attempting to say that IS's role wouldn't cause a follow-the-cop scenario? If anything, ISs role is much more of an investigative and stronger role than CKs.

Freewill - I read it in context before I read your ISO, I know exactly how it occured and you know how Fate plays. When provoked he will yell and scream and yes sometimes he may make comments that are over the top but there's no reason in joining in a speculation contest with him if the answer you seek isn't that hard to attain.

Well, let's be honest. I didn't join the game so I could avoid confrontations with Fate, did I?

[Freewill]

cool. then away we go.

[Freewill]

meh. i'll go with it.

Save: apok

Yo Nacho. Do you have any idea what vezok is talking about in his posts?

[Freewill]

I've said all I need to say. Won't be posting here anymore.

Yes. Take your ball and go home. I won't be playing with you anymore if you insist on acting like a six-year-old who hasn't figured out we don't always get our way.

Apok is getting saved because I wanted to hear from vezok a little more. He says that nacho confirms him as town, but nacho denies any knowledge of this... and then spares him.

[Freewill]

I'm not trying cause I am confirmed town.

Are you stupid Umbrage or scum?

@Nacho: Is anyone sparring you?

Umbrage you are a shit head. I think the entire game figured out why I am town but you are just stupid.

Actually I'm confirmed town because of nacho. But you are too much of a douche to read the thread.

That sure doesn't sound like sarcasm.

[Freewill]

Don't react to Free Will anymore Vezok, he's just trying to manipulate you.

Just let him die.

Die Die Die.

Yes, prevent vezok from actually having to respond.

[Freewill]

Don't react to Free Will anymore Vezok, he's just trying to manipulate you.

Just let him die.

Die Die Die.

Yes, prevent vezok from actually having to respond.

PS. THAT'S sarcasm.

[Freewill]

IS, if we give you three spare votes can you daykill this guy?

Because... why exactly? Be specific in why you think I'm scum, nacho.

[Freewill]

Freewill, I'm more or less ok with as a lynch. His constant confusion about the game mechanics seemed feigned, his vague spare of vezok which he constantly excused, and consequently threw vezok under the bus with a light stab to justify it.

And this is why I'm the one everyone likes, tony.

Scum spares vezok until two days before deadline.
Scum throws vezok under bus to save obvscum.

Vezok = town.

If I really wanted to do this, nacho, wouldn't I have done it with less time than a couple of days? It's not like normal mafia where it takes a few days to buildup the typical lynch wagon. All it takes is one person moving their vote, so giving two days before a deadline seems like a not ideal strategy.

Regardless, are you suggesting we should simply stay on the same votes for the rest of the day?

[Freewill]

Put some reasoning to that and maybe I'll grant your wish, chesskid.

[Freewill]

Nope. You needed time to rolefish so you could see if vezok was just a crazy rambling VI or a powerrole.

And yes, Freewill. I'm suggesting we should all simply stay on the same votes for the rest of the day. Which is exactly why I quite literally changed my vote four seconds after you did.
(lol now thats sarcasm)

Right. Which is why your thing doesn't make a lot of sense. How do I know you're not doing the same thing here? GASP! In fact, you just unspared our replacement who you had been saving since the begininng of the game for "policy" reasons.

Get real.

[Freewill]

It seems to me that lynching and saving are counteracting forces. If you'd not lynch someone in Game 1 because they've been replaced in, why wouldn't you save that person in Game 2? They're the same action arrived at differently.

And apok has actually posted, coming across as somewhat less scummy to me. Vezok has not. Just as I said, I'd change my vote when I have a better alternative, and I wanted to see what Vezok actually had to say or you had to say about vezok's using you to "confirm" himself as town.

Still, I'd rather save protoss:

Spare: Protos

[Freewill]

because
if you don't unsave
you're forcing me to shoot there tonight
even if you think (s)he's town
you not saving frees up my shot soooooooo

Fine. Shoot fate when I flip town.

[Freewill]

Don't worry. You're not flipping town.

Why post this? If I'm not town, obviously he doesn't pay any attention to me. If I am, then he probably should and you should probably reevaluate how this whole certainty of my scumminess came to be. Whether it was my own scummy play (possible) or whether it was driven by some very loud individuals who claimed to have more knowledge than they really do. I digress. Shoot Fate if I flip town. How's that?

And what did you expect to learn from this line of questioning? I see no use for it other than outing vezok if he's a PR.

Whether he's just making up shit or not. His one claim to towniness is his PR stunt where he relies on you. HE came out and said that, not me. This wasn't in RVS either. This was in response to having people think he's scum.

[Freewill]

Whether he's just making up shit or not. His one claim to towniness is his PR stunt where he relies on you. HE came out and said that, not me. This wasn't in RVS either. This was in response to having people think he's scum.

Whether he's making up shit or not = whether he has a PR or not. It doesn't matter if he brought it up or not, this dumb middleground you're taking is rolefishing. If you were town, you would either A) push him to a hardclaim or B) ignore the situation. But instead, you unspare vezok, who apparently has a way to confirm himself as town through me and start questioning him on it.

In my experience, looking for people who are "rolefishing" is one of the surest way to catch town.

His claim was that you confirm him. Not just that he has a way of confirming.

[Freewill]

Shoot me you say?

LOL

WHEREED THIS SCUMREAD COME FROM?

CERTAINLY NOT FROM ANY OF YOUR POSTS OR TONE TOWARDS ME.

KEKEKEKKEKEKAKAKKAAAAAAA

Oh look. Fate decided to join us again. I was playing the game given. I didn't think I could sway enough people to say you were scum to not-save you, so why bother? But who cares? It's not like I'm going to be spared at this point, so my reads aren't exactly in question. Either they're scum-inspired because I'm scum and caught or they're town-inspired.

[Freewill]

Sway?

You haven't even so much as ATTEMPTED to lift a finger and call me scum. NONE Of your posts show any inkling of a "scumread on Fate but no one will listen"

NOR a "vezok and Fate are scum together saving eachother" suspicion.

YOURE DAMN RIGHT YOUR READS ARENT IN QUESTION

BECAUSE YOU WONT GIVE THEM BECAUSE YOU DONT WANT TO MAKE ANY CONNECTIONS AS YOU GO DOWN.


THANKS FOR CONFIRMING ME AS TOWN ON YOUR SCUMFLIP THOUGH

Scared?

[Freewill]

So you're not going to deny that you're rolefishing, you're just going to say that people who rolefish are town?

I'm saying he came out and made a pretty outrageous claim: that he was confirmed town. Trying to figure out whether there's any merit to that might be "rolefishing," but I don't really care what role he is so long as there's some veracity behind the claim. It wasn't my choice for him to come out and say that stuff, but once it's said, it needs to be followed up on. I don't need the full claim to be satisfied.

And I'm also saying that "rolefishing" is a bad scum tell. It's often bad playing, but it's not more often than not done by scum.

[Freewill]

So rolefishing is BAD playing, you know as much. But you're saying scum don't doittt

But YOU admit to doing it.

Aka

CLAIMED SCUM.

Or claimed bad player, but I have more respect for you than that NEMESIS

I said it is often bad playing. But often is not always. Try again.

[Freewill]

wait.
is lynch pool seriously
klazam + freewill + apok
right now?

Yeah. Plus fishy theoretically.

[Freewill]

I know how you all hate thinking and all, but consider this:

If Fishy is scum and not actually lynch immune and we put 3 others up, then scum will get to choose who is saved. They'll pick fishy. Thus "confirming" him as what he said he was.

[Freewill]

There would be no way that he would be able to anticipate that we would leave the maximum number of people unspared as he stated he didn't need to be spared and couldn't spare vote almost instaneously at day start. I do agree with your conclusion that he's mafia, but I do think he legitimatly doesn't need to be spared to live today.

wait what? If he's mafia, he's not lynch immune. Unless there's some hugely strange role lurking out there or mechanic thingy, it just doesn't make sense for him to be mafia. I guess it's possible he's a 1-shot version of that, but it still seems pretty broken to me.

As for anticipation of it, I'll have to check the sequence of events, but I assume scum got a chance to talk before the game.

[Freewill]

If you're attempting to say that you believe he 'gambited', the risk vs reward in the scenario do not match up at all. To be perfectly honest I don't even understand how you could speculate or ponder over that. Risk: Assume that town do not put the maximum number of people on the block, he dies. Reward: Assume that town do put enough the maximum number of people on the block, he gets the ability to save himself which is just the equivolent to someone spare voting for him.

I'm not saying I believe it. I'd say there's a relatively small chance (I don't know, maybe 20%) that he did.

And you've overlooked the obvious reward: it nearly confirms him as town. Mafia wouldn't be given a power like unlynchable. It juts wouldn't make sense. Or maybe there's a reward in his role for having himself saved. It's not really worth hypothesizing what the reward would be as there are a dozen different possibilities, each unlikely but not outrageously so.

My only point is that the town should not assume fishy is confirmed town when he survives the lynch.

[Freewill]

Unless he is an SK that dies if he is spared.

Or SK that gets night kill immunity if he's spared. I mean, there are lots of things. But those still seem far less likely.

The reason that mine is somewhat more important is that as a town we have the ability to change it. We could simply spare him and see what happens. Or we could spare someone else and see if he dies if we're not lynching to the max. It doesn't need to be done today, but I suspect at some point it will need to be done.

[Freewill]

I'm about 99% sure that Freewill is scum now, trying to make me look scummy by association. Also, I'm giddy with excitement waiting for Protoss; he'd better come up with some good stuff.

Klazam, if you want to live, maybe you should bring out that amazing list of reads, no?

99%! That's pretty sure. So you're saying if someone came to you with the following deal, you'd take it:

You put in $100. Bookie puts in $2. If I'm scum, you get the $2. If I'm town, the bookie gets your $100.

[Freewill]

You trying to scare him out of realizing you're scum with gambling metaphors?

LOL FREEWILL

LOL

Why should I care? Apok isn't changing his vote to me, he'd be incredibly dumb to do so.

But while we're shooting the shit waiting for the deadline, it's worth my time to point out how ridiculous a "99%" certainty is.

[Freewill]

Tell you what, Apok. If I'm town, I get to change your avatar to whatever I want at the end of the game. If I'm scum, I'll reveal who my main account is and you can change its avatar to whatever you want.

[Freewill]

(i reveal the main account at the end of the game and the avatar gets changed at the end of the game, obv.)

[Freewill]

actually... that seems kind of game breaky. So I'll withdraw it. Just know that 99% certainty does not exist in mafia.

[Freewill]

Ooooh AVATAR BETS

Just another reason

Fate > Free Will


YOU LOSE

What do you even mean here, Fate?

[Freewill]

yeah, yeah, yeah. I withdrew it. Not trying to win with it, just demonstrate how silly the bravado level has gotten lately.

[Freewill]

Freewill, you've spent quite an amount of time this game pointing out how other players aren't "Thinking", yet when you're on the block now you're not attempting to state reads nor reasons behind your reads. Instead you're making trivial avatar bets and questioning Fishys claim (Which you say has a less than 20% chance of being fake).

I see no town-motivation behind any of those actions at all, if you're attempting to change someones mind into thinking you're town you're going to have to stop these antics and starting using some realistic reasoning.

1. I said 20% chance of being fake in the way I stated. It's probably higher when considering other possibilities.

2. I'm not trying to change people's minds. I've come to the conclusion that my death here will illuminating and surviving will let Fate play his little tunnel games, serving as a distraction for further days. If someone thinks I'm town, by all means they should save me. But it seems unlikely to me given that those vocal in the game seem to either be swayed by Fate's idiotic trash talking or simply think I'm scummy because I've engaged in not-playing-carefully.

3. I'll give my reads before the deadline, don't worry.

[Freewill]

Spare: Fate

[Freewill]

Yeah, but I was just trying to get to Fate and see what he'd say. It's not like you (1) are a vig or (2) were going to follow my advice if you actually are a vigilante. Fate's misguided, but he's town. I don't have that confidence about any of the other players.

[Freewill]

"other players" meaning players that I could save or protos

[Freewill]

You seem to have misunderstoof or completely ignored the point we're trying to make Vezo. If there are currently 3 (Maximum) amount of players on the chopping block, all one of the players on the chopping block would have to do to survive is unvote the person they currently have voted to spare. This would cause 4 people to remain unspared upon the deadline giving mafia the choice of which three they would prefer to die in which case they could just save themselves.

The only real counter we have of this is the vig who would be able to just shoot anyone who would to this before they have a chance to cause more havoc tommorow, therefore it's pivotal to have players on Chesskid that are indeed town and not on the chopping block thus the need for you to change.

This is a very good point. If we lynch 3 and ANY are scum who are the only person saving an individual, they simply unvote and survive while lynching the person they were previously saving.

For what it's worth, it's not all that anti-town for a doomed town player who thinks he's saving scum to swap his vote over to a more town player at the deadline. Sort of a one-shot vengeful townie, but if a town player is doing that, they need to be VERY careful. They need to actually believe they're lynching scum.

[Freewill]

by voting someone who already has a spare, protos makes it so the mafia get to choose at least one person not to get saved.

[Freewill]

by voting someone who already has a spare, protos makes it so the mafia get to choose at least one person not to get saved.

save someone else.
preferably protoss.

Why would I save someone who did that?

[Freewill]

fine. I was definitely going to vengeful Fate because I think he's scum, but I've been denied that privilege by protoss, who possibly wanted to save his scumbuddy after I hinted I might do it. If Protoss flips scum, Fate ought to be shot/lynched. Time to take a look at who I want to actually survive out of klazam and apok. It definitely won't be protoss.

[Freewill]

meh. both are pretty bad...

Spare: Klazam

[Freewill]

Ah you can't trust me and I can't trust you not to switch votes at the last second, Apok. Might as well not try.

[Freewill]

so umbrage, you seem to feel i'm town, but maybe i'm wrong. why save apok over me?

[Freewill]

I go to sleep and wake up to see Freewill and Klazam saved, this needs to be solved as soon as possible. I also don't trust Klazam on CK.

Klazam needs to die, there's no question about it, he's continiously refraining from posting any real content in the thread despite promising to do so a while back.

Freewill needs to die as well, attempting to vengful Fate would lead towards mafia having the choice of who to spare

, he would have known that at the time of doing so yet continued with the plan. I'd rather let Protoss finish his catch-up but overall I don't have any particular suspicions towards him so I'd rather he be saved. Apok I'm flip-flopping over at the moment - Apok, reads on everyone in your next post please.

No. It wouldn't. I would have swapped my vote. I was thinking protoss before he revoted fate.

[Freewill]

No. It wouldn't. I would have swapped my vote. I was thinking protoss before he revoted fate.

You believe swap-saving someone that everyone seems to want dead will be beneficial for the town? You don't think they'd just end up on the block again tommorow or the day after?

If you believe Fate is mafia and want him unspared, make a case attempt to convince people he's mafia, doing anything else won't help whatsoever.

Wrong.

[Freewill]

Well now it's right. but it was wrong.

[Freewill]

Um Protoss just said that he believes Fate is town and then proceeded to, several hours before the deadline, unspare Fate. I can't decide whether Protoss is simply just someone who hasn't followed the game at all or if he's scum, but losing him doesn't seem a tragedy. Fate's disappearance is highly suspicious so unless someone else wants to spare him, I'm good with letting him die.

I'm highly considering making a last minute change to Apok. For one thing, it keeps us from needing the replacement, but I'm also not crazy about his CK3 vote and then replace out.

[Freewill]

and by disappearance I mean relatively low level activity for Fate, and an uncharacteristic lack of desire to drive the game.

[Freewill]

Oh also...

Spare: Apok

[Freewill]

Freewill, I would trust you more if your reads were better. I have read the game completely, and am confirmed to myself, so I don't know what to tell you.

I'm sorry. What does this even mean? You mean you know you're not scum? Well, I'm sold!

[Freewill]

why do you think that duplicity?

[Freewill]

Freewill, you defended yourself by stating you'd finally help town by day-end by stating your reads, you didn't do so and on top of that you ignored my request of them an hour ago.

Protoss, Tony is town, dumbtown but still town and unsparing him at the last minute doesn't help whatsoever.

I'm no longer being lynched. Less necessary. Maybe I'll be killed tonight, of course, but it made it less pressing and I get to see a whole bunch of flips.

[Freewill]

It could be, you know, in his #829 where he lists you as scum
just sayin

That makes it into the following:

Question: Why does duplicity think I'm scum.
Answer: Because he listed you as scum in 829.

Do you see why that's unhelpful?

[Freewill]

I'm no longer being lynched. Less necessary. Maybe I'll be killed tonight, of course, but it made it less pressing and I get to see a whole bunch of flips.

Lets take a look at what you've actually done to help today then.

A) Argue incorrect mechanic sematics.
B) State Fate is scum with 0 reasons to why.
C) State Fishys claim makes him cleartown.
D) Promise reads you didn't follow through on.

Did I miss anything?

As opposed to your current spare target of Tony who has been very helpful?

Anyway, I've produced a ton of reactions that could potentially be useful in the future. We'll see.

[Freewill]

Tony has dumb-told on multiple occasions.

Reactions are meaningless if no conclusion is drawn or attempted to be drawn from the, you would know that.

And yet the game is not over.

[Freewill]

The game "Not being over" is irrelevant, up until a few hours ago you believed it was you on the chopping block and were perfectly fine with the lack of contribution you've added to this game, on top of that you knew the likelyhood of a last minute change condeming you yet you still refrained from "Sharing your wealthy of information" with us.

It's highly relevant. I don't have to be the one making conclusions based on reactions. Others in the game, likely many of those who have been fairly quiet D1 (Nacho and IS being my primary ideas) are perfectly capable of looking back and matching reactions with flips, probably even better than I can. When I was being lynched, this was even more the case because the reactions were directly with me, and my flip would have given even more information.

[Freewill]

deadline is already up, klazam.

[Freewill]

Let's see.

Is your role above deadlines? No self-respecting mod would allow an after deadline vote in this kind of setup, and RedCoyote is a self-respecting mod.

[Freewill]

so freewill basically just claimed scum, right? That's what he did?

No. I'm claiming that I want Fate lynched.

[Freewill]

Freewill...

Yes?

[Freewill]

Freewill is scum or dumb. If fate is scum, he won't be lynched. If he's town, he will be lynched. Now who does that benefit? Scum.

Never rule out both happening simultaneously, but it's neither in this case.

[Freewill]

Battle over.

[Freewill]

Freewil: Good job on being a moron townie that managed to get himself vigged. Good job on that.

ha. whatever, dude. I wasn't "moron townie" at all, and I suggest you analyze your own play before casting stones. My play resulted (in combination with others') with the only scum lynched. I was pretty lucky with that, but not entirely.

Anyway, I'm not sure this mechanic works, RedCoyote. If you want to do it again I think you need to take some time to give it some thought as to how you can address its faults.

[Freewill]

We shall have one! But it might have to wait a few months.