Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[smargaret]

I don't think it's a bus, I think it could be distancing. I'm interested in why you're so invested in denying that this is even a possibility, though.

[GreyICE]

I don't think it's a bus, I think it could be distancing. I'm interested in why you're so invested in denying that this is even a possibility, though.

Because it's STUPID. That's not scum distancing. Like, maybe if that was two great players, yeah, sure, they have a contrived fight in the thread to look town-on-town. But that one didn't succeed in looking town on town, and kcdaspot can't do that. I've lynched him as scum twice so far, and he gets scared of his own shadow under pressure. No damn way that Amrun and him could pull that off.

I deny it because it's FUCKING STUPID

And if you think otherwise, show me how

[Doombunny9]

Well Grey has been juping around topics which I'm unsure what to make of at the moment. I also don't like how grey just threw out the possibility of scum v. scum because, even though its unlikely, its still 100% possible as he stated, while it does take good players to pull of properly, that doesn't mean no one else can try. Throwing out any possibilities is anti-town at least.

On the other hand, grey's posting here has came off with "pro-town" vibes as it looks like he's trying to help out and I don't see why scum would post some of his arguements unless it was a scum v. scum which I why I'm still unsure of what to think about this.

[GreyICE]

Well Grey has been juping around topics which I'm unsure what to make of at the moment. I also don't like how grey just threw out the possibility of scum v. scum because, even though its unlikely, its still 100% possible as he stated, while it does take good players to pull of properly, that doesn't mean no one else can try. Throwing out any possibilities is anti-town at least.

On the other hand, grey's posting here has came off with "pro-town" vibes as it looks like he's trying to help out and I don't see why scum would post some of his arguements unless it was a scum v. scum which I why I'm still unsure of what to think about this.

UGH

No, throwing out possibilities, especially on day 1, is VERY pro-town. You can revisit the assumptions if they need changing, but in general these are almost certain assumptions not worth revisiting until LyLo:

1) Early day arguments except between two VERY good players are TvT or TvS, never SvS. SvS tends to look more like Consulmaker II (Dramonic and Reck) where they had no good reasons for calling each other scum, and were almost playful about it. And they never worked hard to get each other lynched. If you're not getting a feeling that they're playing a game in the thread, they're either EXCELLENT or it ain't SvS. Frankly, I know kcdaspot isn't as bad as people think, but he's not that good.

2) If two wagons hit L-1 and one is scum, the other is town (I don't think that'll hold in this game, since the nomination process could easily get two scum in there, but when it's one vote, you like... never see two scum L-1 wagons sitting next to each other).

3) If it's taking risks it's probably town - this is often worth revisiting midgame, but scum risks can fall apart so quickly.

4) There's scum in the lurkers - believe me, lurkers are going above every contributing town member, and scummy lurkers go right at the top. Post content or die.

5) Strong, consistent stances are town - again, worth revisiting midgame, but scum tend to waffle more, since multiple mislynches is nice.

[Amrun]

So, doombunny, changing your stance now? When I asked you if you thought both kcda ad I were scum, you said no, but you thought one of us was scum. Now, it's "100%" possible we're both scum?

[smargaret]

Grey, look at Pirates mafia day 1. The big argument there was SvS.

The rest of these aren't relevant, so while I agree on some and disagree on others, we can discuss that elsewhere post-game.

[RedCoyote]

Would you like to direct me to this supposed "lie?". I don't see it.

• RC, I voted for Kcdaspot, but votes don't count towards lynch in this game. It's effectively an FoS and I don't see a problem with doing that.

  Damnit.
  
  VOTE: Lynch

Again, quit playing dumb, hon. You're scheming, and you're being dishonest. This is a consistent pattern.

Also I didn't mention just you specifically with lurkers. It was still true. Go vGla if you're not available.

Well, I'm not V/LA, so I'm not going to be doing that. It's not my problem that you check the thread every six hours.

---

It's not town on town? Why.

Did you read my post? Amrun just flat out lied (see above), she's serving up WIFOM by the bushel-full (which wouldn't be necessarily bad except for the fact that she tries to play it off like she doesn't know she's doing it), she's making patently false allegations that Kcda and her cannot be scum together to try and buy either herself or Kcda town credit, and she's using self-pity as a manipulative tool to get people to not suspect her.

Kcda is effectively hopping on your back and having you do his heavy lifting, he's completely focused on Amrun for seemingly no reason since he has said multiple times that he thinks she's town, and, the classic, why me = fry me. That's no joke, btw. I hold anyone's feet to the fire who'll go off on the "why me?" line of defense. It's too self-interested.

Ask yourself if you would cry if we lost either of these players D1.

---

Guys stop voting people! They dont count!

You're more than welcome not to vote, but I expect to see at least your two nominees on the top of your list, if not your whole list.

---

I find it amusing (read: scummy) that Mist pops in, posts fluff, votes to lynch, and doesn't provide a list or ask any sort of question. Also, the two questions she's asked have not been followed up on at all - there's definitely something going on as far as Mist not contributing. The reason she and DB are tied for second is because I have more to go on from DB (so I'm more confident in my read), and a DB flip would be more informative in terms of connections than a Mist flip, but Mist is slightly more likely to be scum (very slightly, IMO, but Mist has done more scummy things - I just can't be as certain that they're legitimately scum-motivated and not Mist being Mist) and I haven't figured out which way the balance should tip.

I would not be sad to see Mist gone. She needs to step her game up or she'll find herself back in the stone age.

---

I've said it before, I'll say it again Smarg. Whenever all your scumreads are newer/less experienced/less skilled players, ask yourself if it's really that easy.

Grey, you know I hate that argument with such a passion. It's brought up at least once in every game I play now. It makes you look silly.

If you keep this up you're going to look like the "defender" of Mist and Kcda. Is that what you want?

If you're going to defend someone, I suggest you do so by arguing with someone based on the merits of their suspicions. This, "Mist has a scummy meta because she's 'less experienced'" crap is for the birds. Mist is an independent player of this game that doesn't need to be coddled by you, me, or anyone else.

If Amrun is obvscum to you, then kcda HAS to be town, because this is not a scum double bus.

Gosh, and you're just digging a bigger and bigger hole for yourself, Grey. This is ugly. Really ugly. Oh, I guess it's just a coincidence that Kcda just so happens to be your biggest fan this game?

Because it's STUPID. That's not scum distancing. Like, maybe if that was two great players, yeah, sure, they have a contrived fight in the thread to look town-on-town. But that one didn't succeed in looking town on town, and kcdaspot can't do that. I've lynched him as scum twice so far, and he gets scared of his own shadow under pressure. No damn way that Amrun and him could pull that off.

I deny it because it's FUCKING STUPID

...and here comes the emotional tirade. Yuck. It looks like your just pulled the trifecta: crappy "too newb to be scum" argument, patting Amrun on the back, and losing your cool against a calm smargaret.

Amrun's logic this game = bad
Shadowing Amrun's bad logic after it has been called out as bad = worse

You've got a lot of work to do to work your way back up, my friend.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. Kcdaspot
   
3. RangeroftheNorth
   
4. GreyICE
   
5. Mist7676
   
6. smargaret
   
7. Doombunny9
   
8. Tragedy
   
9. MrTrow
   
10. Exe
    
11. Chronopie
    
12. GhostWriter

[Amrun]

RedCoyote, that is not a lie. When I voted for lynch at that point, I didn't realize that once we reached nomination phase, we only had 48 hours. When this was pointed out to me, I immediately unvoted. At the time, I thought if we did not reach a "lynch" consensus by the deadline, no lynch would happen. I have now learned this is not the case.

Even if I had realized this, how does that make it a lie? That makes no sense.

I'd also appreciate if you stopped being so condescending to me. Even if I were terrible scum, which I'm not, or terrible town, which I'm kind of bordering on this game for whatever reason, that does not give you the right to treat me like a child. And like I said, I'm not being lynched today, barring extraordinary scum intervention, even if I get on the chopping block. Take a hint.

[RedCoyote]

What do you mean how is it a lie? You just sat there and said you vote didn't count toward a lynch. I showed you that you voted for a lynch. Period. Whether you misread the rules or not (which I am aware of because I have been keeping up with the thread and specifically you due to my scumread on you), you still did it. I mean, why are you trying to not be held accountable? I'll decide whether I think you "meant" the lynch vote or not on my own. You shouldn't just assume that I will.

I'd also appreciate if you stopped being so condescending to me. Even if I were terrible scum, which I'm not, or terrible town, which I'm kind of bordering on this game for whatever reason, that does not give you the right to treat me like a child.

I'm being overly callous with you because I like you a lot and think you can take it. If you sincerely want me to tone down my rhetoric, then I will do that. It wasn't meant offensively (I'd just as soon you dish it out to me as hard as I am to you), I'm only being cruel because I'm in full-on game mode here. Everything I say to you I say with a smile, even the attacks. <3

[Amrun]

My vote towards kcdaspot where I said VOTE: Kcdaspot DID NOT count towards a lynch and there is no way you can possibly think it did. Whether or not I voted to Lynch in general after that has nothing to do with the fact that my "vote" towards kcdaspot never counted as a serious vote. I never thought it would.

I think I get what you're going at now, but I didn't at first. I was talking specifically about the "vote" towards kcda. We were talking about different things, I think. Even if you were talking about my Lynch vote, I unvoted it already.

And as for the second part, okay, that's fine then. That is the type of in-game joke I can condone.

But I am not sure how to explain my statement that it's obvious that the argument is not scum v. scum without venturing into WIFOM land. I stand by the statement, but I'm not sure my explanation of it will do much good. All I will say is that I have replaced into a game in which kcdaspot was d1 lynched as scum; therefore, I am well aware of his lack of prowess in a scum slot. That would have greatly informed my decisions, had I been scum. Take that how you will.

[GreyICE]

Hey Red, it's fucking getting old because it's fucking true.

Whenever someone's scumreads strongly resemble 'the easiest players in the game to get lynched' there's a fucking problem. Try an experiment. Make a list of the 5 easiest players in the game to lynch before the game starts. If it's anything like anyone's scumlist on day 1, try and figure out how often all 3 scum are in those five players (hint: not often) and how often the person with strong scumreads on people who are 'easy lynches' are scum (quite often).

kcdaspot is obvtown. If you disagree, make a case or fuck off.
Amrun vs. kcdaspot is not scum on scum. If you don't like that, explain how it was preplanned, or fuck off.

I have no need or desire to appease you. I have no need or desire to go up or down on your scumlist.

Why is Chronopie town?
If I'm scum, how come Ranger of the North is up there, when all of your 'major scum suspects' have expressed suspicion of him?

[RedCoyote]

Hey Red, it's fucking getting old because it's fucking true.

>implying it's true

If it's anything like anyone's scumlist on day 1, try and figure out how often all 3 scum are in those five players (hint: not often) and how often the person with strong scumreads on people who are 'easy lynches' are scum (quite often).

>implying this is what smargaret did

kcdaspot is obvtown. If you disagree, make a case or fuck off.

>implying I didn't just do this for you

I have no need or desire to appease you. I have no need or desire to go up or down on your scumlist.

>implying it isn't killing you inside

Why is Chronopie town?

>implying we didn't already discuss this

If I'm scum, how come Ranger of the North is up there, when all of your 'major scum suspects' have expressed suspicion of him?

>implying I base my scumhunting on "who could be partners with who" on D1 of a closed setup when there have been no flips

[GreyICE]

...

Did you really state that I 'implied' something was true, when I said 'it was true?'

Do you know the meaning of the word 'imply' RedCoyote? Does it mean something besides 'I want to paint this person as scummy?'

[Amrun]

Would you like to demonstrate how smargaret's list ISN'T just full of easy lynches?

It's one of the main reasons she's on my list.

[Tragedy]

Easy People to Lynch

01. MrTrow
02. Chronopie

03. Mist7676

04. RedCoyote
05. smargaret

06. Amrun

07. Tragedy

08. GhostWriter

09. RangeroftheNorth

(?)
10. Doombunny9

11. Kcdaspot

12. GreyICE
13. Exe

The bolded people above are pretty easy to lynch, if I had to think well.
Mist.. You know, the obvious lurking, the... Unlikable one...
Due to Amrun and Kcdaspot stupid fight I had no understanding of at the beginning, they've rendered pretty obviously easy lynches.
I'm not sure about Ranger, but he does lurk a bit... But the truth is that I don't understand 'em.
Myself, well, you all would know why.

[RangeroftheNorth]

@Ranger: You're missing the point. Your joke was an attempt to suggest we move forward in discussion, however

you did not give us any contribution to discussion

. Essentially, you're doing exactly what Chrono is doing: attempting to appear pro-town by calling for relevant discussion, without actually giving any relevant discussions.
Also, your apology for your absence shows that you're clearly more concerned with making peace to notice the real issue, which is a scumtell in my book.

Ranger & Amrun for top 2 scum? Yes please.

Or perhaps I didn't notice the issue you were having because you didn't explain it very well. I was planning at the time to post more later, but then I forgot about the game. I wanted to see a little more from a couple of people before I made up my mind, and I didn't want the discussions that were going on to get derailed by a pointless RQS. That's my explanation. If you think that makes me scum, so be it.

I don't think the questions that Doombunny asked are in any way helpful to finding scum, and thus I see no reason to answer them. That's my general feeling on RQS. I recognize that this feeling isn't terribly common or popular, but it does not reflect on my alignment. In several games I have read, I have seen refusing to answer the questions taken as a scum tell. I see no evidence that this is accurate. I can't cite any personal meta here, as I have yet to complete any games on the site since the practice of RQS became common.

My questions were not meant to catch scum, they were meant to get discussion started that would catch scum.

And what was wrong with the discussions that were going on at the time? You claim you thought the discussions of mechanics were important. There was already discussion about people's motivations going on. How would the discussions started by those questions be better than the discussions that were going on? Again, I don't think asking the RQS questions was inherently scummy, just useless. Its your posts since then that have made me suspicious.

The more of Amrun's posts I see, the more suspicious of her I get. I'm going to put together a better case tonight, but I think she has supplanted Doombunny as my top scumspect.

I'm also growing suspicious of Mist who is occasionally present, but has yet to post anything of any value.

Easy People to Lynch

01. MrTrow
02. Chronopie

03. Mist7676

04. RedCoyote
05. smargaret

06. Amrun

07. Tragedy

08. GhostWriter

09. RangeroftheNorth

(?)
10. Doombunny9

11. Kcdaspot

12. GreyICE
13. Exe

The bolded people above are pretty easy to lynch, if I had to think well.
Mist.. You know, the obvious lurking, the... Unlikable one...
Due to Amrun and Kcdaspot stupid fight I had no understanding of at the beginning, they've rendered pretty obviously easy lynches.
I'm not sure about Ranger, but he does lurk a bit... But the truth is that I don't understand 'em.
Myself, well, you all would know why.

I'm really unsure how this list could be of any value to the town. We aren't trying to lynch people because they're easy to lynch, we're trying to lynch people because they're scum. A list of people who are easy to lynch only would be useful to scum. Still getting more of a VI feel from Tragedy, but even VIs have to be scum sometimes.

[Tasky]

LYNCHCOUNT 1.5

LYNCH (2/8): GhostWriter, Mist7676
NO LYNCH (11): MrTrow, Chronopie, RedCoyote, smargaret, Amrun, Tragedy, RangeroftheNorth, Doombunny9, Kcdaspot, GreyICE, Exe

Deadline is 30.04.2011, 19:00 CET.

__

(Pseudo-)Votes

Doombunny9 (2): RangeroftheNorth, MrTrow
RangeroftheNorth (1): Exe
Chronopie (1): Kcdaspot
Amrun (1): RedCoyote
Kcdaspot (1): Amrun

Not Voting (7): Chronopie, Mist7676, smargaret, Tragedy, GhostWriter, Doombunny9, GreyICE

[GreyICE]

He needs so much dead.

[smargaret]

Who is "he"?

[GreyICE]

You did read #290, right?

Lets see if you can take a firm stand on something this game, Smarg. Analyze post #290, tell me what you see there.

[RedCoyote]

Nevermind, it's just a dumb Internet meme. The point I'm making is that most of that was addressed (directly to you, no less), and the rest of it is just a fundamental difference of opinion. We'll just have to see if the Grey/Kcda/Amrun group prevails in this argument, I suppose.

[Doombunny9]

@Grey- For the most part I can agree with you on this, the point I was trying to make is that town should never 100% assume that something is untrue unless there is proof that there isn't. Yes, it is a good idea to treat something as it most likely is but never to say that it is the absolute truth.

So, doombunny, changing your stance now? When I asked you if you thought both kcda ad I were scum, you said no, but you thought one of us was scum. Now, it's "100%" possible we're both scum?

Is it not possible that you two aren't scum together? I said I don't think that you two are scum together, not that you two can't. For the time being, I'm going to treat the two of you as if at least one of you is town but I'm not just going to just throw out the possibility. Reading comprehension=Good.

Also I have a question for you: Earlier you asked me: "What is the point of FoSing two separate people you don't think are scum together?", yet upon rereading, other people have done the same thing and put you and kcda together. Why didn't you question them?

Grey's posts are still giving me mixed feelings.

...

Did you really state that I 'implied' something was true, when I said 'it was true?'

Do you know the meaning of the word 'imply' RedCoyote? Does it mean something besides 'I want to paint this person as scummy?'

Uh... Why does this matter again? Why didn't you respond to any of it rather than that part?

And what was wrong with the discussions that were going on at the time? You claim you thought the discussions of mechanics were important. There was already discussion about people's motivations going on. How would the discussions started by those questions be better than the discussions that were going on? Again, I don't think asking the RQS questions was inherently scummy, just useless. Its your posts since then that have made me suspicious.

The people who were talking about peoples motivations were a select few and even then, mechanic discussion was still a big part of their posts. I wanted to see a majority of scumhunting with only a side topic of mechanic discussion rather than the other way around. Also, the motivation discussion was weak such as "OMG you didn't reed teh rules :O" and while that's ok considering how it was still early, it wouldn't progress much at the rate everyone was going at.

[RangeroftheNorth]

And what was wrong with the discussions that were going on at the time? You claim you thought the discussions of mechanics were important. There was already discussion about people's motivations going on. How would the discussions started by those questions be better than the discussions that were going on? Again, I don't think asking the RQS questions was inherently scummy, just useless. Its your posts since then that have made me suspicious.

The people who were talking about peoples motivations were a select few and even then, mechanic discussion was still a big part of their posts. I wanted to see a majority of scumhunting with only a side topic of mechanic discussion rather than the other way around. Also, the motivation discussion was weak such as "OMG you didn't reed teh rules :O" and while that's ok considering how it was still early, it wouldn't progress much at the rate everyone was going at.

And how was the RQS any better? Perhaps it could have sparked discussion, but why did you choose to introduce an RQS at that point rather than contributing to the discussions that were already ongoing. I disagree with your characterization of the motivation discussion at that point, but even if that's the way you saw it, wouldn't that be more useful than the answers to questions that have no actual bearing on alignment?

[Amrun]

Doombunny: I have, as far as I know. If I have missed someone FoSing us together, I will address it soon. RotN just did, and I ask him the same blanket question I asked everyone else:

Do you think we are both scum? If so, please justify your response.

[RangeroftheNorth]

@Amrun: I didn't FoS both you and kcda. I have not seen anything that has caused me to believe kcda is scum. I'm growing more convinced that you're scum. Please point out where I said I was suspicious of both you and kcda.