Newbie 1081: Showdown in Newbtown (Game Over, Mafia win)


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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2011 2:10 pm

Post by Workdawg »

chkflip's case

Your first three points are based almost entirely on your assumption that Fatso/Kard/thunder is scum.

1. Star's last read on me was "leaning town"... I hardly think he was suspicious of me, especially since he voted for h3ll0 at the end of the day when he could have put me at L-1 and left someone else to choose between me and Zd. As for "tunneling the cop," that's a ridiculous way to try and twist things to make me look scum. I tunneled on Zd, yes, but even if I were scum, I had no way of knowing he was cop.
2. For my interactions with Kard, I think you're also stretching. Post 1, I asked him to clarify his reasoning. Post 2 I downright disagree with your statement that his hammer had "little to no town motiviation." I 100% agree with what he did and would have done the same thing if I were in his place. He saved us from having an even number of players left entering D2. It's unfortunate that the lynchee was town, and more so the cop, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
3. I already clarified the "discrepancy" you point out here. I agree that he should have been pressured, but he held up well IMO. And you were a jerk for calling him a retard. Lazy jackass is at least SOMEWHAT acceptable. As for repeating myself, that's not really the case either. Zd asked me why I hadn't comment more thoroughly on the other cases that had been presented between your first and second quotes. When I posted the first I hadn't had a chance to really read everything in context... the second is my response having done so.
4. I have nothing to say about this since you didn't present any specific examples. The only thing that comes to mind is when I recapped my cases against you and shotty, but that was simply because no one had really responded to either.
5. I've stated many times that I welcome any pressure that you want to throw at me. If you think I'm trying to deflect by that statement, then tell me why. Bulvious seems to have been satisfied by my reply.
6.1. I don't care who you want us to look into... I just find it curious that you vote for me and then your post asks people to look at Kard and me. You added me to that post like it was some sort of sub-thought.
6.2. Wat, I don't even... I guess you have something against wall posts, or something.
6.3. Whatever. I presented cases against both of you... are you going to refute any of my points? I even presented my case against you (and voted for you) before you raised any suspicions against me. If anything, it's you who is OMGUSing. As for shotty, you can't honestly tell me you think his blatant ignorance of EVERYONE besides me doesn't seem scummy.
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2011 2:11 pm

Post by Workdawg »

Crap, looks like I lost some stuff... that was in reply to chkflip's case against me... i'll get to the posts after that later.
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2011 9:00 pm

Post by alnkpa »

@Mod: I already requested replacement one or two weeks ago. I don't wanna stall the game.


Sry guys but I'm ill and will need to go.

You sent that PM to me a few days ago (when I was swamped) =/
Working on it.
Last edited by Antihero on Tue May 03, 2011 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2011 8:40 am

Post by Bulvious »

That's good, now we might get someone who is more experienced and knows how to make a case for himself or against others.

But fuck it's late.

FFFfuuuu. Sorry Antihero, I imagine most of the fun in modding is watching player interaction and it's sort of falling to bits and I'm not helping it a ton.
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2011 8:46 am

Post by Workdawg »

@thunder
The speculation based on replacements is not related to their gameplay AT ALL. There should be SOME evidence out there that you can use to try and make up your mind that doesn't rely on this. Aside from that, it's just as possible for someone to prefer playing town to mafia, which would make your argument that scum would be less likely to replace out invalid.

@alnpka
Sorry to see you go, best of luck.
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2011 1:03 pm

Post by Antihero »

Vote Count #20


chkflip - 2 (h3ll0, alnkpa)
drmyshottyizsik - 1 (Workdawg)
Workdawg - 2 (drmyshottyizsik, chkflip)

Not Voting: alnkpa, Bulvious, thunderwielder

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch. Deadline is May 9th.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2011 3:36 pm

Post by drmyshottyizsik »

I would bump for activity, but I can't do much with the scum not posting.
#freeShotty
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 12:44 am

Post by h3ll0 »

drmyshottyizsik wrote:I would bump for activity, but I can't do much with the scum not posting.


Wait, what? Who is the scum who is "not posting"?
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 5:02 am

Post by Antihero »

Seeker99 replaces alnkpa.

Welcome!
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 8:26 am

Post by chkflip »

Alright, I didn't think much of it at first.

UNVOTE: Workdawg but
IGMEOY

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik[/unvote]

Please stop prod-dodging.

Who are your town reads?
If Workdawg were to flip town, who's your next scumread?
If he flips scum, who is his partner?
Why can't I get anything passed a null read off of you?
"Fuck you. I opened up my heart to you and you stabbed it a thousand times." - Gamma, to me, right before confessing to being the town vig and murdering my scum partner N1.
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 12:41 pm

Post by Seeker99 »

Hey, I'm Seeker99, call me Seeker.

startransmission wrote:1. What's your Mafia experience? I've completed about 15 games off-site, winning over half of them.
2. What's your favorite band? Daft Punk
3. What role/alignment do you prefer? I quite like the Nexus, although the Shizo and the Godfather have grown on me.
4. Do you find it harder finding scum, or convincing other people that you've found scum (the latter assuming you correctly identified someone as scum)? I find it very hard to find scum, as I'm not very good at scumtells.


So yeah, I believe I'm a pretty experienced Mafia player, and I hope I have some epic games here.

Also, imported from my hometown of The Cave of Dragonflies, would you like some tea and cod?
I am confused.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 12:50 pm

Post by thunderwielder »

First off, Welcome Seeker! Please get caught up as quick as you can because Monday is our deadline!

To Bulvious,

Rereading through the posts of Chkflip, although he has posted infrequently, he has compiled quite a few cases against multiple subjects. Star, Fatso/Kard/me, and now Workdawg. Albeit, I find the Workdawg case to have been very well defended, but that was just from my first read, so I don't think the case is as comprehensive as it could be. Also, reading back through the posts, I've found Chkflip to have been contributing a lot to the town, in quite substantial large posts. I think I may have been swayed too much by my lynchking theory and haven't been focusing as much on the facts. Another large factor of my claim of Chk being scum depends on Work being town, and while I still think that is true (I want to do a full read through of everyone's post history when I have time), I now recognize that it isn't enough evidence to commit someone to the gallows.
And his lack of posting as of late (well, not late, but earlier.. nevermind) is as a result of illness and getting kicked out of one's house. And I think even the worst scum wouldn't claim something like that. At least I hope not. I mean, hey, if you're scum, Chk, I think it's a good play. To be honest, Chkflip isn't my number one suspect anymore.

I then read through h3llo's post history, and I now have remembered why I found him to be scummy in the first place.

If you look back through the posts he was one of the first people to vote for Zd, and then retracted in post 286 when Zd finally speaks up and makes a case.
But then he jumps onto voting for Fatso right after that, with hardly a reason. This seems very OMGUS, kind of like his vote for Zd.
Three posts later, Bulvious makes this comment
Actually, yes, I would say so. In the last game, h3ll0 had a case, maintained and pursued that case, althroughout the game. This game... I don't really see that from him. In fact, I can't think (off the top of my head) of a great case he's made this game, or has attempted to make.

in response to Zd's question about h3llo's play style this round of the game. A job shouldn't stop people from making sound, logical arguments.

When asked to provide evidence against Fatso (other than the "Fence-sitting" claim, which coincidentally he also called Zd -- I can't find the post, but he responds to Zd's response to his accusation at the bottom of post 185) he only responds with the below quote
h3ll0 wrote:EBMODP:

I really really need to go sleep, and stop posting mess like this...

Bulvious wrote:h3ll0 posted while I was posting. I have to say, his vote really confused me until I saw the other two posts. h3ll0, I can't see why you voted for Fatso, though. Other than possibly his 'fence sitting' if that's even an accurate accusation, I don't see what makes that so scummy.

He makes posts like these #189 and #285 whereby he says some player are scummy, but also town as well.

In 189, I think Fatso was just speculating without quotes, making a mistake that I made in my first post of the game. And his second example, coming about a hundred posts later, doesn't represent a contradiction. He says you are scummy. He says Zd made a case against you. And he remarks on the suspicion of Zd because of his hesitance to post long informed responses.

In post 314
h3ll0 wrote:
Zdenek wrote:I've already explained this, and now you are scummily trying to muddy the waters with pointless questions.

Show me where you answered your reasoning for pushing a lurker lynch. I flipped through your ISO and did not find one.

It was suspicious, but not scummy, as if there is some other sort of suspicious behaviour?

The actions he did could also be attributed to newbieness. Or differences in typing style. Hence I wanted to hear his reply before confirming.

and stop scum hunting?

You're missing the point. How many people actually go about scumhunting when they are focused on defending themselves, which I was clearly doing? I don't find my method of questioning your process of elimination to be faulty.

Good, then let's lynch him.

Fine. Lynch me. Who do you think the rest of the town should look at when I flip town?


This post says pretty much nothing, except for the obvious fearmongering (I think that's the term) in his second and last sentence. He is trying to make Zd afraid to lynch him by claiming to be town.

In post 324 (I don't know how to link to posts like a couple other people have been doing, so please excuse me posting the entire quote)
h3ll0 wrote:
Workdawg wrote:I just noticed this little quote from a couple days ago and it seems interesting to me even though no one else has mentioned it. I have to wonder what would make h3ll0 change his playstyle? Can you elaborate on that at all, h3ll0? Was there something specific that didn't work well in your last game that's making you play differently now?

I'm a very passive player. Even in that game, Newbie 1064, I made a case on the scums only after been nudged by the other players.

chkflip wrote:UNVOTE: Fatso

I wasn't trying to get
that
personal, again the tard comment was just a rough joke. Sorry if I have offended you.

Calling him a lazy jackass, on the other hand, was because he was double and triple posting instead of copy/pasting his arguments into one post.

I'll tone it down from here on out. :o

Why the unvote here?


He doesn't really answer the question about his change of game style, as noted by Bulvious. Instead, he says "I'm a very passive player", and "Even in that game". He's not addressing the change that Bulvious has noted, and hopes to let it slide under the radar.
And then he posts a rather uninformed question, considering the answer should be obvious as Fatso just asked to be subbed out of the game and Chk was being sympathetic and felt bad about a previous comment. I think this obvious nature is represented by someone else in a couple posts after this.

Finally, in post 392, his last of Day one, he jumps off Fatso and onto Workdawg for reasoning that seems rather arbitrary.

h3ll0 wrote:

Workdawg wrote:Right now it looks like Zd and alnpka are tied at L-2 a piece. I've always said I thought Zd was our scum, so I'm obviously not going to move my vote right now. I'll try and compile my case against Zd during work if I get the chance and post it up, otherwise tonight for sure.

There is something about this post that makes me want to
Unvote, Vote Workdawg
. It feels as though you want to sideline the fact that you are the third biggest wagon, if counting the intend to vote.


He doesn't give reasoning for it other than that, but instead slides onto the Workdawg bandwagon. And then doesn't make any other comments until the beginning of Day Two. Unfortunately for him, Workdawg is still alive, and he has to make a feeble attempt at an accusation and a justification for his vote since now everyone is looking towards Workdawg and who voted for him. He half-heartedly reiterates his previous point, and tries to justify his bandwagoning.
He is also the first one to post after Day Two begins... but now that I look back, it seems everyone was not quick to reply to the beginning of Day Two so nevermind...

I don't think he's been doing a lot to contribute to the town, and a lot of his discussion in the beginning stages of the game were spent talking about the lurker lynch policy, which he managed to then lead to a vote against Zd when he was called out on not talking about anything. Then, after that, I still don't see enough contribution or creation of legitimate cases. He spends a lot of time defending himself against Z, and then fails to post offensive cases, in depth ones at least, against anyone.
Vote:h3llo


As for my second suspicions, I have yet to figure that out. I'd like to take a look over Shotty's slot and see what I see. Right now, I think his play style is sort of similar to Zd (although to be fair I haven't investigated him in depth), and it seems hard to believe that a Mafia would be taking so much suspicion right now.
At the same time, he hasn't been saying anything, and I've found his motivations for voting fairly underwhelming. I would think he would be posting a lot more and creating arguments like most others, and his lack of response or case fabrication seems a little suspect. I'll have to reread him, and everyone other than Chk and h3llo, and start looking for more specific examples of scummy-ness.
Show
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3
L:
1
Town (2:1)
Mafia (1:0)
Oh, would that this hoodie were a time hoodie!

---Scammers on craigslist don't realize I play Mafia... What scum...
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 12:54 pm

Post by thunderwielder »

Oh, and just looking back, the only motivation for voting for Chkflip comes by way of a single word. That he didn't even find himself. Again, bandwagoning.
My vote for h3llo
definitely
still stands.
Show
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L:
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Oh, would that this hoodie were a time hoodie!

---Scammers on craigslist don't realize I play Mafia... What scum...
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 1:13 pm

Post by Seeker99 »

@thunderwielder
Thanks :D

And that is a shitload of evidence against h3llo.
They feel somewhat scummy to me, although mostly just really unhelpful, so I've pretty much made up my mind on voting.
Vote: h3llo
I am confused.
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 2:35 pm

Post by Bulvious »

Seeker, much of the benefit to the game a new player brings in is new eyes. Read over the topic and tell us what you think, please.

Chk brings up a good point against shot. The tunneltard has been evading prods, and input for quite a long time.

His use in the game is... Nill. He has a case against Workdawg without any new evidence against him, whereas evidence against Drmy is piling up with every post.

On the other hand, Chkflip has been wagon hopping.

And on the other other hand, your case against h3ll0 makes sense.

Excuse my hesitation to vote people, I still want more clarification and input from the Aln/Seeker spot.
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 3:08 pm

Post by Seeker99 »

What do I think?

I think that I am really, really confused right now D:
But other then that, Thunder and Bulvious are the most useful/nonconfusing people right now. Maybe Workdawg. Anyone else I either haven't seen much of or are really confusing.
I am confused.
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 3:47 pm

Post by Workdawg »

Wow, lots of new activity, that's good!
Welcome seeker, please try and catch up ASAP, the deadline is approaching fast as others have pointed out. If you can read the entire thread and try to give us your thoughts on who the scum are, that would be great. I know it's rough subbing in. I had a hell of a time getting things straight and I only had a few pages to read. It's critical that you get your bearings though as just jumping on the latest wagon is pretty unhelpful.

First of all - I promised to give some analysis of chkflip's / shotty's voting. Sadly, there was pretty much nothing there.
Shotty has only ever voted twice, both times for me.
chkflip has 4 times: ST (a wagon he started: post 232), Fatso (second on wagon wl alnpka: post 247), Zd (3rd on wagon w/ alnpka and I: post 388), me (second on the wagon w/ shotty: post 486)

So, they never vote together.

However, I'm not really sure I'd say chkflip is wagon hopping. I agree that he has been rather, cryptic (?) with his accusations... (the whole Me and Kard thing, his stance on Zd from D1), but he hasn't been really throwing his vote THAT much.
h3ll0 on the other hand does seem to like to vote a lot.

h3ll0's votes

Post 17: First on Lynchking
Post 70: First on Sarahfish
Post 226: First on Zd
Post 286: Second on Bulvious (with ST)
Post 288: Second on Fatso (with chkflip)
Post 392: Second on Workdawg (with shotty)
Post 474: Second on chkflip (with Workdawg)

I think the only suspicious vote h3ll0 has made though is the one against me. He flipped his vote when the deadline was approaching with a very weak reason, as others have mentioned (including thunder above).

That's the second most to Fatso/Kard/thunder (11)... but Fatso managed to vote 5 times in the first 75 posts. Fatso was also 8 of the 11 votes, and I think we can all agree that he used it to try and pressure people a lot early game.


Thunder's case

First of all, to link to a post, click on the post number and it will redirect your browser right to that post. Then copy the URL and make a link with it. Proper usage of the tags is {url=http://URL}TEXT{/url}... only with the proper brackets.

I think you have a couple interesting points here. His wagon hopping is interesting... and that led me to the info above. I'm not totally convinced there is anything to that, though.

Another thing is your quote from 324. I agree that his response to the question (about his playstyle) was inadequate and it does seem like he might have been trying to dodge the question. I didn't really notice it the first time around I guess. Going back over the context, I also get the feeling that chkflip's unvote was fairly obvious. He seemed to be both toning it down on Fatso (post 270 seems like some coaching more than keeping up the case) as well as maybe unvoting because of the replacement.

I don't really feel it's a damning case, but I am interested in h3ll0's responses. I still think shotty is more likely scum, though, so I am going to stand by my current vote for now.
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 4:02 pm

Post by Seeker99 »

Okay, I've caught up more now (But nowhere near pg22 D:) and I'm considerably less confused.
And Bulvious is currently the leader in understandable/useful posts. Haven't gotten to the point where Thunder/Workdawg have replaced in yet.
And I have realized that MafiaScum.net is waaaaaaaay more serious in the games than I have ever seen. I'll need some serious adjusting. And scumhunting tips.
I am confused.
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 4:22 pm

Post by Seeker99 »

Okay, I see this term popping up all over the place in this game:
What is "lynch policy"?
I am confused.
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 6:18 pm

Post by Seeker99 »

Okay, I finished reading everything. My point of view:

-Bulvious seems to be generally pro-town by all of the scumhunting and other things.

-I really can't blame WD for lynching Zd. He was playing very stupidly, in a general sense. (Sorry for not being very clear, but I'm in a hurry and I'm tired)

-Shotty feels /really/ scummy, pretty much tunnelling WD for no reason. I think. Argh, can't remember. I'll continue tomorrow, but for now, VOTE: shotty
I am confused.
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 6:33 pm

Post by drmyshottyizsik »

Hey shotty's tunnling who he thinks is scum to avoid lylo! What scumz!!
#freeShotty
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 7:48 pm

Post by Bulvious »

Seeker, that puts Drmyshotty a L-1, in future situations you need to announce that so there can't be any mistaking by scum.

Shotty is at L-1


Unfortunately, Seeker, you replaced into a game without an IC, but I'd be willing to answer questions you may have.

Shotty, your D still sucks, and your play is like Zdenek, or are you aiming for that because someone said that's not scum behavior?

Alright, and according to WD's analysis and I think I'd agree, Chkflip is probably town. That narrows it down considerably for me.



Answering Seeker: A policy lynch is a lynch people agree on only because they think a no vote would do worse than killing someone under policy. Like a policy to lynch lurkers over no one.
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 10:09 pm

Post by h3ll0 »

thunderwielder wrote:I then read through h3llo's post history, and I now have remembered why I found him to be scummy in the first place.

If you look back through the posts he was one of the first people to vote for Zd, and then retracted in post 286 when Zd finally speaks up and makes a case.

I already said that my vote on him was OMGUS. I mean, what do you expect me to react when someone posts a weakish case on you?

But then he jumps onto voting for Fatso right after that, with hardly a reason. This seems very OMGUS, kind of like his vote for Zd.


Three posts later, Bulvious makes this comment
Actually, yes, I would say so. In the last game, h3ll0 had a case, maintained and pursued that case, althroughout the game. This game... I don't really see that from him. In fact, I can't think (off the top of my head) of a great case he's made this game, or has attempted to make.

in response to Zd's question about h3llo's play style this round of the game. A job shouldn't stop people from making sound, logical arguments.

Ability to make sound, logical argument =/= having enough patience and dedication to create solid cases.

In 189, I think Fatso was just speculating without quotes, making a mistake that I made in my first post of the game. And his second example, coming about a hundred posts later, doesn't represent a contradiction. He says you are scummy. He says Zd made a case against you. And he remarks on the suspicion of Zd because of his hesitance to post long informed responses.

He said he had suspicions on me (in addition to Zdenek's case). Whatever the "suspicions" were, it was never mentioned. To me it was him trying to cover up the fact that he was basically barning Zdenek, was no additional input.

This post says pretty much nothing, except for the obvious fearmongering (I think that's the term) in his second and last sentence. He is trying to make Zd afraid to lynch him by claiming to be town.

At that point, I was resigned to the fact that Zdenek's case on me was solid and basically thought that I would be lynched already.

He doesn't really answer the question about his change of game style, as noted by Bulvious. Instead, he says "I'm a very passive player", and "Even in that game". He's not addressing the change that Bulvious has noted, and hopes to let it slide under the radar.
And then he posts a rather uninformed question, considering the answer should be obvious as Fatso just asked to be subbed out of the game and Chk was being sympathetic and felt bad about a previous comment. I think this obvious nature is represented by someone else in a couple posts after this.

Number 1, I feel that Bulvious's observations of me based on our previous game was not correct.
Number 2, why should anyone unvote a person simply because he feels sympathy? If you post a case that was strong enough that caused the suspect to actually drop out of the game, most likely the suspect is guilty. Why stop and unvote?

He doesn't give reasoning for it other than that, but instead slides onto the Workdawg bandwagon. And then doesn't make any other comments until the beginning of Day Two. Unfortunately for him, Workdawg is still alive, and he has to make a feeble attempt at an accusation and a justification for his vote since now everyone is looking towards Workdawg and who voted for him. He half-heartedly reiterates his previous point, and tries to justify his bandwagoning.
He is also the first one to post after Day Two begins... but now that I look back, it seems everyone was not quick to reply to the beginning of Day Two so nevermind...

I didn't agree with the two wagons that Workdawg pointed out, and felt that what he said was scummy as it had shown the town a false dilema. The fact that the day ended on a weekend didn't help (AKA I didn't have time to post until Day 2).

I don't think he's been doing a lot to contribute to the town, and a lot of his discussion in the beginning stages of the game were spent talking about the lurker lynch policy, which he managed to then lead to a vote against Zd when he was called out on not talking about anything. Then, after that, I still don't see enough contribution or creation of legitimate cases. He spends a lot of time defending himself against Z, and then fails to post offensive cases, in depth ones at least, against anyone.

Yeah, I know that already, I'm not contributing enough. If you want to vote me for that, so be it.
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h3ll0
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h3ll0
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2011 10:11 pm

Post by h3ll0 »

drmyshottyizsik wrote:Hey shotty's tunnling who he thinks is scum to avoid lylo! What scumz!!

So answer the questions. Who do you think is most likely to be the "scum's" partner?
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Mafia Scum
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 2:16 am

Post by Workdawg »

Unless I'm miscounting here, I think shotty is still TECHNICALLY at L-2. chkflip's vote, while in tags, is not properly tagged. By the letter of the law around here, I don't think his vote technically counts, but
maybe our glorious mod can clarify.


As the vote is not properly tagged it does not count. By the official vote count, shotty is at L-2.


About chkflip. I'm not convinced he is scum either. Without the "scum slip" comment about power roles I probably would not have bothered to make a case against him, but I felt with that and his recently play it was worth making a case and putting a little pressure on him to see how he reacted. His OMGUS reaction was interesting (whether he wants to admit it was or not, it certainly looks like it).

And we have shotty continuing to post nothing relevant at all. On D2 he's literally posted NOTHING relevant at all. Since my case against him, he's posted 3 more times and he hasn't responded to ANYONE's questions for him or my case at all.
He said before that "[he] can't do much with the scum not posting" (ISO 28), but I've posted TEN TIMES since his post previous that one (ISO 27)... and only 3 of them were shotty-style, no-relevant-content posts. I've posted plenty of content for him to twist into scumtells, but he's still active lurking his way through D2. He's been even less helpful than alnpka today (before he replaced out).

I've already posed this question, but what is the town motivation for NOT answering questions and defending yourself? And continuing to active lurker when the deadline is less than a week away.
I cannot think of a single reason he would be playing like this if he was town.
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