Open 309 - Fire and Ice [Game Over]

[Toro]

Vote: LadyHaHa

Because...you must die.

[Toro]

EWBOP: That's serious btw.

And your reasoning is....what?

[Toro]

I think I see what you're getting at...or I could be way off the map with it. Hmm. Probably the latter.

[Toro]

Yeah I was looking at a real subtle thing, maybe we're on the same page here.

[Toro]

Oh jeez.

[Toro]

Or we should all just shut up. Starting...now.

[Toro]

Matt is going the wrong way.

Would you agree or disagree with this, Toro?

Disagree, that post was what gave me uneasy vibes regarding Robo, the 3rd answer he gave just sounds like "Well I will play to the best of abilities and won't divulge any info on if I really am, and no, no I'm not." Obviously you don't want to say yes to a question like that, but the way he said no was raising some red flags in my head.

I just realize I haven't answered matt's questions yet.

1. I've been playing mafia for...gee whiz, it's been a while, 4 years I'm guessing?
2. I'll be online enough where I can post every day.
3. No, but I am a Spanish translation for bull.

Vote: Toro.

When he's speaking with Hiraki, his posts are implying that his own reads count for nothing. This is how scum talks.

I was merely questioning what Hiraki was trying to get after, I think you might be reading a bit too much into this. And it's nice playing with you again Nik.

[Toro]

Again. Somebody said, "Whatever you want me to be babe." Somebody said, " I plead the fifth". Yet my answer is somehow wrong?

It's not that your answer is necessarily wrong, it's how you worded it that's throwing up red flags. I actually don't like Amor's response more than yours, "I plead the 5th?" Really? A simple no would've done fine.

Unvote

Vote: Amor

I'm also concerned how projectmatt didn't raise an eyebrow at Amor's comment.

[Toro]

I was looking over the thread and I figured I'd go ahead and bring this to everyones attention. After I pointed out Hiraki and Toro's buddying on page 2 they stopped talking to each other about anything. I'm not sure if this means anything but I figured I'd point it out just in case it does mean something.

If you considered that buddying I don't really know the definition of buddying in this game anymore. Where did you see Hiraki and I scumhunt together? Sure we compared ideas on Robo's answer to the 3rd question but other then that it was off-topic nonsense between us.

[Toro]

And scum would also like it if barely any explanations were made so a confused town could pile votes on eachother while scum can forge on under the radar.

*Squints eyes and points finger at Hiraki*

[Toro]

Fuck it.

I'm motivated. You want content? Give me a few days. I'll require a quicklynch after I'm done with Robo.

Fucking using semantics in a fucking post fucking pisses me off.

Fucking.

@KCDA: I see what you mean, but I haven't had anything that I've needed to say yet.

With this, I'm going to have to say everything because I'm putting all my cards on the table to get Roboscum out.

Get ready for this fucking wall.

And before anyone posts a fucking image.

Yes. I am mad.

OfT: I think he's mad.

Ont: Posting your reasons sure as hell looks better than not posting your reasons.

[Toro]

Holy shit, it's been 118 posts, how big of a wall is it?

[Toro]

(After giving the game a much needed read-through)

Unvote

Vote: Hiraki

Why are you delaying your wall? Unless this thing will be a wall that will put future walls to shame I don't quite see the reason why you're delaying it. And why are you trying to rush? So far I have not seen anything particularily scummy from Robo except the fact that he seems tunneled on silavor. Other then that I see no other reasons why you should be asking everybody to vote Robo to finish the day off.

Something else I've noticed, matt, why haven't you posted the answers to the questions you posed to everyone back on Page 1? In particular I want to know how long you've been playing mafia for.

[Toro]

lol

Can we lynch Toro after we're done with Robochoppah?

Seriously?

[Toro]

Clear sarcasm, but I'm not saying that you should avoid Hikari, I'm saying that it's illogical to suspect him for not doing a wall as soon as he possibly can. If he never supplies the wall, then fine, deal with him. I also don't think a pressure vote is going to do anything, given that even if he is mafia he can (very clearly) fake a rage. I don't see how tells are going to be gathered if you claim it's a pressure vote, and I don't see how it's logical to lynch Hikari for waiting two days to make an apparently great post. Let's wait for this post.

It felt odd to me how he said it wasn't really necessary at this point, unless I'm interpreting it wrong. He also said he didn't feel like doing it today, sounds like delaying to me. Which makes me wonder how did he turn to this...

No, it's because I don't have time. Your piss poor pressure vote is piss poor.

How did he make the jump to not feeling like doing it to I don't have any time? If he said earlier he didn't have any time to make it today I would've been perfectly fine with that and I wouldn't have tacked on my vote.

If you haven't caught on yet, I want to lynch Toro for being opportunistic for voting Hiraki for 'delaying his wall' for like one real-life day.

It appeared as if he was delaying, see above. I'm still interested in what he has to say though, and relax...it's L-4, he's in no danger it was merely a pressure vote, not a vote putting him in danger of lynching. If a bandwagon appears out of nowhere (doubt it) I'll remove my vote as I want to see his reasoning.

[Toro]

Why am I Matt?

I believe he was referring to Matt delaying posting his thoughts. I don't quite understand his vote though.

[Toro]

He can delay all he wants, page 6 is really too early to have enough to post a real wall.

/nod

I really don't know how big he expects this wall to be after just 141 posts.

[Toro]

guys.. if hiraki's wall doesn't come by 8pm CT...

pressure wagon?

I'll give him until 12AM EST.

[Toro]

Unvote

That

was

worth the wait. Couple bits of analysis here from both yours and silavor's walls.

VOTE: Toro

Scum are always excited to play. Meaning they check the game a lot. Since he was first. He obviously was checking a lot. And so on.

Meaning, that he is scum. Or she.

That is my reasoning. Yes. Yeppers.

(Also, Nice flavor, I was amused.)

Excessive punctuation implies nervousness, insecurity, and excitement. Town have no reason to be this jittery eight posts in.

I think you're reaching a bit here, this post sounds more of a generic RVS vote.

But more to the point, why do you keep asking me to find your scumbuddy? This isn't your first game, you should know that finding scumpairs when no one has flipped is a useless venture. You know who tries to get the town to fly away on useless ventures? Scum! You're trying to wifom your way out of suspicion by passive-aggressively stating that if we can't find your partner you simply can't be scum because we can't find your partner. That is a ridiculous argument, and honestly, town simply wouldn't be that petty.

Interesting catch you had there sil.

Once again, admitting you're scummy doesn't make you any less of a scum. It certainly doesn't make you any more of a town. You've had all this time to scumhunt, to look over what's been said, to take a side on anything that doesn't involve you, and yet all you can do is try to defend yourself against anyone who looks your way. I love the AtE at the end there, by the way. So touching. It almost brought a tear to my eye, the poor plight of a defenseless scumbag.

Another good point, I noticed the tunneling earlier as well.

Those were their FULL posts too! I didn't just cut the votes out of the quote, I posted the FULL quote!

I doesn't matter if I am town or If I am scum, nobody is even realizing how unfair this is to me.

So look Nikanor.

Heres the thing.
You guys got nothing on me.

Besides the want to just lynch me.
And when I flip, its not even going to matter to you guys.

You aren't thinking, you are just doing.
For the sake of doing.
Just flipping coins.

This post will be used against me.

Now, I'm going to go back and read the game.

You notice here (in bold) how it sounds as if he's almost 100% certain that he is to be lynched this phase? Sounds to me as if we've got panicked scum on the run. I used to sound like this when I was getting bandwagoned back in my newbie days on an off-site forum I used to play on, I exhibited this type of play when I was town

and

scum. Now keep in mind I did that as a newbie, Robo's been playing (at least on this site) for 18 months now, surely an experienced player knows how to defend themself better than this and not to cave in so easily.

---------------------------------

Now onto Hikari's wall.

I'll be one of the Mature ones and answer the questions normally. This is why I initially voted.

This seems like scum saying, "lol i can get town points by not lying"

Actually, upon reviewing this Robo post with his answer to #3, he's definitely taken a sharp turn south on my list.

Robo is an experienced player. He has modded, and played well in different games. If this was a newbie/semi-experienced player I might let it slide.

Let me make this extremely clear. When you are playing town, you are playing to your mod given win-con.

Lynch scum.

NOT

look like a townie. Looking like a townie is how scum win. They don't hunt scum.

This is going too much into theory now though, so that's enough on this topic.

/nod

The experienced player part of this is definitely striking me as suspicious of him with his seemingly throwing in the towel in his 147.

He's crumbling under pressure.

And that's all I got.

Sure as hell looks like it.

Along with point 1, this is scumRobo crumbling under pressure. Also, there's hints all around of Roboscum becoming annoyed at my word use.

The word confirmed shouldn't intimidate a townie so much. A townie knows that they aren't confirmed scum, and should have that notion. I can't see Robotown coming out of this.

/nod at bold.

After reading Hiraki's wall I do see Robo's scumminess but I don't exactly want to vote for him yet seeing as (I think) he's almost half-way to a hammer and I'd like to see his response to this wall before I make my decision.

The evidence is all there for me, he sure as hell seems paranoid, too paranoid for a townie.

Vote: Robocoptor87

[Toro]

robo comes out swinging with no logic what-so-ever. just "bring it on" and now he gives up?

There's no way an experienced townie would just give up like the way he has.

[Toro]

EMPKING.

YOU ARE MY SAVIOR.

BECAUSE WE BASICALLY AGREE ON EVERYTHING.

Was this in regards to this game or just across the forum in general?

Now tell me, what's wrong with only focusing on one person at a time? I only have one vote, it's not like I can lynch multiple people in a day. Moreover, finding connections between people doesn't work that well if no one's flipped yet. What was the point of this exercise exactly?

You can still focus on more than one person if you're sitting and taking notes on the game as it progresses, tunneling on only one person in-thread is anti-town.

"He never sid I was town, he just said I wasn't scum." What?

That's puzzling me as well.

To the first question. Thats what he said. He never said I was town. He just said I wasn't scum. Simple as that. Its a null read for the points given is what he is saying. Or at least, thats what I'm getting from his posts. Hes saying what I posted a second ago, "Just because a player acts badly does not mean you should lynch them"

If you're not scum you must be town in this game, there's no third faction.

SECOND WIND?

FUCK.

THIS MEANS HE CAN'T BE SCUM.

UNVOTE

I'm fairly sure that scum doesn't want to die on D1 Hiraki.

because this is a very anti-town policy. You should never intentionally get rid of townies. No matter how stupid they are, because in the process of you lynching the VI, you've essentially given the mafia a free night, and increased the mafia's chance of winning.

I have to agree with this, you don't want to lynch off VI's for being VI's as there's always a stronger chance of you lynching off a townie. However, playing like a VI in the thread can actually benefit the scum. Scum DOESN'T want to kill off genuine VI's (Robo is not one of these) as they're not as effective playing-wise and scum would want to keep them around.

Vote: Robo - Sorrry, Hikari, I've seen scum give up but then grab at a glimmer of hope before.

Link it.

It's not such a farfetched idea Hiraki, scum's playing for the win also. Robo's earlier attempt at trying to get pity from the town obviously wasn't working, so he's now trying to play as a competent townie to try and alleviate the pressure. This strategy could go either way on the town/scum spectrum so I've got my eyes glued to the screen waiting for his defense.

Something I've just noticed regarding Kcdaspot, I've been reading his past couple of posts and it seems as if he's conveniently tunneled on Robo, you could argue "Hey Toro but he's got his vote on him." It doesn't matter, town wouldn't spend all of their time looking at just one guy. It appears to me as if he's being more of a follower than trying to show initiative.

For example...

guys.. if hiraki's wall doesn't come by 8pm CT...

pressure wagon?

Why do you need our approval to start a pressure wagon? Scared that people will deem you anti-town?

The tunneling and the rush to get Robo lynched is also throwing up red flags for me as well. That goes for Matt as well.

IGMEOY: Kcdaspot and Projectmatt

[Toro]

For example...

guys.. if hiraki's wall doesn't come by 8pm CT...

pressure wagon?

Why do you need our approval to start a pressure wagon? Scared that people will deem you anti-town?

The tunneling and the rush to get Robo lynched is also throwing up red flags for me as well. That goes for Matt as well.

IGMEOY: Kcdaspot and Projectmatt

also reason i asked? i didn't want to be alone in it. if no one voted with me i'd look stupid. also was a gauge to see how everyone felt of hiraki at the time. i mean we were all just twiddleing thumbs one of the only things to talk of is

should we put pressure on hiraki if he's late.

Common Mafia sense says yeah.

i WOULD imagine 1 or 2 people would be with me but i had to be sure that either A) a clumsy hammer wouldn't happen

I couldn't possibly imagine a whole mudslide of votes going onto Hiraki, so I disagree with you that we would've had

7

votes on Hiraki by then. Whoever hammered would have to be a complete moron.

or B) there WAS GOING to be enough pressure on the wagon. also would "encourage" hiraki to complete his task though in hindsight it could have affected the quality of the wall. but eh, none-the-less he delivered and none of that happened so... yeah.

But what troubles me is that you're asking for more votes on Hiraki when he already had

3

votes on him at the time, that's enough to be considered a pressure wagon to me. And if you added your vote we would've been at L-3, and that's a decent sized pressure wagon. So why call for further votes? It seems like you're wishing to have gotten as many votes on Hiraki as possible, potentially creating a situation where an accidental hammer could occur.

Its what you said.

Go go gadget reach.

[Toro]

I still don't get how 3rd/4th person on a wagon is a scumtell, the wiki article didn't elaborate. Anyone wanna clue me in?

[Toro]

I still don't get how 3rd/4th person on a wagon is a scumtell, the wiki article didn't elaborate. Anyone wanna clue me in?

Helps the wagon along while not putting yourself out there.

Yeah but with this reasoning couldn't 5th or 6th be considered scumtells as well?

[Toro]

Also, yes, I do think Robo is panicking. Look at his last freaking post and tell me that isn't tunnel vision. Tell me.

That's not tunnelvision, that's answering back to the guy posing questions towards him. And while I think that's scummy for the way he misrepped EMP, it's not strictly tunnel-vision. For a guy who has a second wind, Robo's not really showing me proof of it. He's defending himself yes but he's doing a rather bad job at it. Still waiting for him to reply to the walls.

Hikari - if you want to derail the Robocopter lynch, who else would you lynch today?

Yes, going back down to L-2 (and going back up to L-1) is considered derailing.

[Toro]

It's a really old wiki tell that AFAIK no one takes seriously anymore.

I'm surprised anybody EVER took it seriously.

[Toro]

It's a really old wiki tell that AFAIK no one takes seriously anymore.

I'm surprised anybody EVER took it seriously.

If it catches scum why not take it seriously?

The way I see it there's always a 4:1 - 5:1 ratio of town being the 3rd or 4th vote, it's a scum-catching tactic that just doesn't add up to me in the end. If this was legitimately a good scum-catching technique then we'd have no lynch after no lynch due to players being too scared to vote as they could be deemed scum. If people were getting caught as scum just by being the 3rd/4th vote then I'd deem that coincidental.

[Toro]

Same question for Nikanor. What makes YoYo a better lynch than robo? Why were you desperate to not have the town lynch robo while you were sick?

Why are we discussing theory?

Great question. I was just confused re: 3rd or 4th vote and it's relation to scumminess.

Still not convinced that Robo's a VT.

[Toro]

Hiraki, can you explain why you're thinking he might be scum again?

Because he has produced nothing worthwhile.

Yes, for a guy who's had a second wind he's certainly not showing it, what with the misrepping and everything.

[quote="Hiraki"While the initial thought of defending while admitting under substantial hatred, also known as not giving up, sounds very townie, doing nothing makes it worthless.[/quote]

/nod.

I haven't seen much of an improvement from him.

[Toro]

It's not a second wind if the coming back to defend himself still consists of misreps and faulty arguments. No.

Toro
That's not tunnelvision, that's answering back to the guy posing questions towards him.

Look AT his responses though. His responses are misreps and "NO U, YOU'RE SCUM". It's tunelling\OMGUS'ing when it feels like he's just calling his attacker scum out of spite.

Kdca, other then Robo, who do you feel is likely scum?

Eh, I see that more as an OMGUS.

So Toro, first you say that whoever might have hammered Hiraki would have had to be a moron and that you couldn't possibly imagine a bunch of votes accumulating. But then you bring up the possibility of an accidental hammer. Am I missing something here, or do these two sentiments not mesh?

I couldn't possibly imagine it happening, doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

[Toro]

I find the lack of activity disturbing.

Hiraki, if Robo fails to deliver, what is your plan of action? Pursue other leads? We've only got 2 more days.

[Toro]

Welp.

He hasn't posted anywhere else though.

Oh well.

Vote: Robo

Didn't you say that you'd give him until tonight?

[Toro]

Vote: Hiraki

Something feels off to me regarding his flip-floppiness yesterday. (Going off his ISO)

SECOND WIND?

FUCK.

THIS MEANS HE CAN'T BE SCUM.

UNVOTE

To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.

EWBOP:

AND BEFORE SOMEONE GOES ON AND SAYS, "lol Hiraki he's trying to screw wit u"

SHOW ME ANOTHER GAME WHERE SOMEONE HAS GIVEN UP, AND LATER TRIED TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, AND WAS STILL SCUM.

I DARE YOU.

Let's just say EMP's not the only one who has experienced this.

ROBO.

I GIVE YOU UNTIL FRIDAY 11:59 EST.

PROVE ME WRONG AGAIN.

Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.

Because.

Does it really matter?

Here he tries to brush off the reasons for him jumping off the wagon.

And I've explained the flipflopping.

If I didn't then I'd agree with you.

But I did.

I want Robo to prove to me(us) that he's town.

He explained the flipfloppiness with really bad reasoning, it

does

happen.

And why the sudden change of heart? He had prior been hoping to rush D1 with the lynch of Robo, as seen in his ISO #19 (19!) And

nooooow

he wants a reasoning from him. This doesn't sit right with me at all.

-------------------------------

I believe the reasoning that Hiraki jumped off of the wagon was that he knew Robo would flip town and didn't want it to appear like he was the one pushing hardest for his lynch, deflecting most of the attention onto silavor, YYG, and Empking.

[Toro]

To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.

That's why I used all caps, used Fuck, and said Second Wind.

HMMM.

Most. convincing. argument. ever.

From my POV it appeared as if you were being either sarcastic about your unvote or completely insincere.

Let's just say EMP's not the only one who has experienced this.

And you didn't post a game...because?

A.) The site where I used to play is now down.
B.) I can't do that at the moment w/o receiving some sort of punishment for it.

Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.

This was my only real mistake.

I highly doubt Robo was going to say anything good either.

Yet you took off your vote and planned on giving him time to defend himself (until Friday mind you.) If you highly doubted Robo could produce anything to defend himself why offer him a window of time to do so? I also find it troubling for someone who wanted to give Robo a second chance, you HAMMERED him.

He explained the flipfloppiness with really bad reasoning, it does happen.

Your point?

You claim that having a second wind and coming back to defend yourself is strictly a town tactic, from some previous experiences of mine, it's not.

And why the sudden change of heart? He had prior been hoping to rush D1 with the lynch of Robo, as seen in his ISO #19 (19!) And nooooow he wants a reasoning from him. This doesn't sit right with me at all.

Do you think I didn't want reasoning for actions of someone that I wanted to lynch?

Did you not try to rush the D1 lynch?

I'M FEELING REALLY GOOD NOW.

LET'S GET THIS OVER WITH.

My vote is much better here.

Unvote, Vote: Toro

Go ahead. Pull the OMGUS card. Do it.

It's OMGUS, do you have a legitimate reason for voting me?

[Toro]

First of all, there are multiple scum groups, so regardless of Hiraki's alignment, he couldn't have known that Robo was going to flip town.

Agh shit, keep forgetting that we've got two scumgroups against us. Speaking of which, what are the numbers now? 3:2 town?

Second of all, Hiraki's unvote had good reasoning behind it.

But earlier in the day he wanted Robo dead, right then and there. The change of heart he had is scummy as hell.

Thirdly, Toro's case is terrible, and he's probably scum.

Unvote. Vote: Toro.

Please elaborate.

[Toro]

Unvote

Vote: Toro

- Cpmpromise to my favourite player with votes. Hikari is really, really town.

Please elaborate. How do you view Hiraki as town?

Also reason-less bandwagoning, noted.

[Toro]

My problem is that you're aware of the oddities that having multiple scum groups creates, but ignore the fact that terrible cases should be nulltells since both scum and town have motivation to build up strong cases against scum.

You're wrong. Scum have motivation to build any kind of case against people who aren't them.

I don't really think that Kcda is scum.

Actually Alduskkel is right, with two scum factions one will always be trying to take out the other. It's not as if they're plotting together to eliminate all of the town, I guarentee they're more focused on eliminating eachother first. Think of it, Fire/Ice would always be trying to eliminate Ice/Fire so they can decrease the chances of getting NK'd themselves at night.

PEdit: What was your case on Hiraki?

[Toro]

It's time for an active reading post.
----------------

Hiraki, I'm still interested in who your case was based on?

Nikanor, what about Toro's case makes you think he's scum?

I'm still waiting on an answer to this as well.

Projectmatt Vote somebody in your next post.

Interesting. Don't allow him to catch up and post his thoughts? Just flatout vote someone?

Mafia are NK immune people.

Get it right, this is an open game.

I THINK Kcdaspot's "scumminess" can be attributed to his playstyle. Recent town meta

Hiraki, are you going to address the votes against you at all? A defense, maybe?

Not in this game Dusk. (Bolded)

I'll agree to Kcdaspot's meta, I went through some of his past/current games and his posting style is the same, his meta's still a nulltell to me.

So... no-kill or Doctor protection. Probably the latter.

/nod. Either of the mafia teams not sending in a kill N1 sounds ridiculous.

Or (unlikely I'd say unless YoYo claimed and I missed it) both targetted the same player. Its pretty useless whatever it was though.

If this were the case there'd be no kill.

Hmm. I don't really notice a difference between TownKCDA and ScumKCDA. TownKCDA's more active, but his wagon was slower and more drawn out in that town game, so it might've simply been that he had more time to reply to things.

/nod

I'm back.

Going to be posting my thoughts soon after a longer re-read. If I vote KDCA or Toro all votes would be in.

Three votes are currently on Toro - four on Hikari, if I vote for Toro, would it force a NL or would the day remain until the deadline is up and nobody has changed? And same question for a vote on KDCA. Not feeling the Hikari wagon, will point out why shortly.

If you voted for me there wouldn't be a no-lynch, where'd you get that idea? If you're not feeling the Hiraki wagon why are you automatically planning on voting for me? Because I'm the next highest wagon?

Unvote, Vote: Nikanor

I'm going to need to explain this, no?

Erhagkele.

/nod

[Toro]

If you voted for me there wouldn't be a no-lynch, where'd you get that idea? If you're not feeling the Hiraki wagon why are you automatically planning on voting for me? Because I'm the next highest wagon?

You've misunderstood.

Looks at your 464, ah I see.

[Toro]

I'm back.

Going to be posting my thoughts soon after a longer re-read. If I vote KDCA or Toro all votes would be in.

Three votes are currently on Toro - four on Hikari, if I vote for Toro, would it force a NL or would the day remain until the deadline is up and nobody has changed? And same question for a vote on KDCA. Not feeling the Hikari wagon, will point out why shortly.

I still don't get this post. Having all votes in has nothing to do with forcing a no lynch, and it's not like the rest of our votes are set in stone.

If this were the case we would've already been on D3 by now.

[Toro]

Unvote

Vote: PM

- Pointing out bad play wrt Hikari rather than scummy play.

/so much facepalm

That

warranted your vote!? He's not even voting for Hiraki! And what is this now, your third different vote this day phase with little to none (and bad) reasoning?

[Toro]

Unvote

Vote: PM

- Pointing out bad play wrt Hikari rather than scummy play.

/so much facepalm

That

warranted your vote!? He's not even voting for Hiraki!

Yes his active lurking warranted the vote. You find active lurking a null tell or town tell?

I find active lurking to be neither null or towntells imo.

If his active lurking warranted your vote, than why not point that out when you were casting your vote?!

FoS: Empking

[Toro]

I see Toro scum now.

Easy.

And you don't even elaborate, not like I really expected you to.

I'm so confused.

Hiraki. You're not making any sense. Your issue with Nikanor boils down to... he didn't post a real case? If your evidence is a misrep, why bother stating it in the first place?

Because he's flailing caught scum.

I'm making a lot of sense.

It's not that Nikanor didn't post a real case. Did you read it?

I stated it in the first place as a mistake.

No, you're not making sense. Barely anything you've done in this game has made any sense at all.

Empking is not happening.

He's me buddy. <3

If he's your buddy, defend him.

Hiraki, I am disappoint. You mean to say you've forgotten about that game already?

Notice how Empking makes cases there, how he replies using logic, and how there's a coherency to his thought pattern. Notice now how all three of those things are missing from his play this game.

/noted.

Anyone who can't see the contrast between the Empking of THAT game and the Empking of THIS game is blind.

not really.

Ladies and gentlemen, I've found our blind man.

i wanna lynch hiraki thoo....

Then keep your vote on him, simple concept really.

------------------------------------------

In conclusion, I am willing to hammer Empking as his play has not been town-like whatsoever throughout the game thus far. However, I want to have him at least try and defend himself. If his reasoning is garbage than I will hammer.

[Toro]

Also, my second vote included reasoning. You may disagree with it but its quite clearly got my reasoning for it. To help us not go the Hikari route. GTherefore Amor and MPR are both lying when they claim it did not include reasoning.

From how it reads it appears as if there's no reasoning...

Unvote

Vote: Toro - Cpmpromise to my favourite player with votes. Hikari is really, really town.

All you claim is that Hiraki is town, there's no real reasoning there. Your vote is trying to (and badly) defend Hiraki, there's no motivation towards why you're voting

me.

Can I point out how fast my wagon has grown. Its totally a scum wagon (Not saying I'm town because it could be due to bussing.)

I have no doubt there's some scum players on this wagon, most likely whichever mafia team you're not on. And you're not saying you're town? What?

[Toro]

okay Emp just called himself scum we can lynch him now

That's exactly how I read it. There's no hidden meaning in what I said. Empking's attempt to defend himself hasn't come off as a real townly way of doing so, voting me just to defend Hiraki? Absolutely terrible reasoning. He hasn't even gone into why he believes Hiraki is town, and his reasoning for voting me is still absolute garbage. This along with the meta silvalor provided are enough evidence for me, Empking must hang today.

Unvote
Vote: Empking

[Toro]

FFS.

Toro dies tomorrow.

Apparently I have to use all caps because it keeps falling on deaf ears, YOU HAVE NEVER DEFENDED EMPKING NOR HAVE YOU EVER ATTEMPTED TO.

[Toro]

YOU [Hiraki] HAVE NEVER DEFENDED EMPKING NOR HAVE YOU EVER ATTEMPTED TO.

waitwut

For a guy who's been adamantly calling out Empking as town, he's only claimed that this is his normal town meta, which you disproved. That has been the only time I have

ever

seen Hiraki try to defend Emp. Other then that he's done nothing.

[Toro]

He hasn't

defended

empking, he's just said "FUCK YOU GUYS EMP IS TOWN."

Exactly. If he claims he's town he should prove it, he hasn't and that's a fact.

[Toro]

He hasn't

defended

empking, he's just said "FUCK YOU GUYS EMP IS TOWN."

Exactly. If Hiraki claims Empking's town Hiraki should prove it, Hiraki hasn't and that's a fact.

Edited quote to avoid confusion.

[Toro]

why am I supposed to defend someone else?

You'd accuse me to be his buddy for defending him.

And you know that.

For God's sake, let me rephrase it

again.

How is Empking town? How Hiraki? How!?

Toro.

I will make sure you die tomorrow.

Regardless of what Empking flips, even though it will be town.

(loluknothatbecuzurscum)

If I were scum how would I know Emp would flip town? Why couldn't Emp flip the other scumteam?

[Toro]

I'm going to let him flip.

And then let the room become silent.

Then we'll see how he's town.

No, if he's town and you knew he was town this whole time you should've posted evidence that could've prevented his lynch. He hasn't played like a townie this whole game, now post your proof. You remaining silent suggests that you don't have proof that he's town, you just flailing your arms proclaiming he's town isn't helping you at all.

[Toro]

not really.

He was at L-3.

FFS.

Toro dies tomorrow.

Lynch happens, after Toro hammer.

hmmzorz.

wonder why I didn't bother in trying to defend him at the moment.

Or y'know.

Why he didn't.

FFS. Empking didn't even claim did he?

You've still never bothered to defend him while the pressure on him was building up, why?

[Toro]

Still doesn't change the fact that you haven't provided a reason why you think he's town, you're just flailing your arms proclaiming him town and calling everyone idiots who doesn't think what you think.

[Toro]

Ok I guess I should clarify. The doctor's dead. Our only power role is dead.

WHAT'S THE POINT IN CLAIMING?

/nod

[Toro]

Once again you don't have reasons, provide them when you get back.

[Toro]

How is switching off at the last second town? It's scummy in any other game, null-scummy here because of the dual scum teams. There's nothing obvtown or megatown about it.

How the hell is jumping OFF of a well-established wagon on town scummy? I thought that staying ON the wagon with poor reasoning was scummy.
He jumped off the wagon (that was on a townie) and gave a decent reason for why he was doing it. He even made a case that caused at least two people to jump onto the Robo wagon. It would have been easy for him, as scum, to ride the wagon to a lynch. He did the hard thing, so he's town.

Strongly disagree. From the way he did it it sounded as if he tried distancing himself from the wagon so it appeared that he had a premonition about Robo being town and he was right about it, and don't forget he did this with really cruddy reasoning.

[Toro]

see.

If Empking was scum, he wouldn't say anything to me.

Why of course.

[Toro]

Toro.

Let's be logical here.

If Empking was scum, why would he talk here?

Oh I see what this is, this is another "ROBO'S GOT A SECOND WIND HE MUST BE TOWN!!!" thing isn't it?

[Toro]

Toro.

Let's be logical here.

If Empking was scum, why would he talk here?

Oh I see what this is, this is another "ROBO'S GOT A SECOND WIND HE MUST BE TOWN!!!" thing isn't it?

This is evidence that Toro isn't focussing on scumhunting. Even if it was a fair comparison then he was right the first time.

This suggests nothing of the sort. Are you suggesting he's not right this second time around?

[Toro]

I'm not mocking him, that's exactly the move he's trying to pull here. Once again, are you suggesting he's not right this second time around?

[Toro]

I'm not mocking him, that's exactly the move he's trying to pull here. Once again, are you suggesting he's not right this second time around?

Are you saying that you PUT IT IN ALL CAPS WITH MULTIPLE !!!!! because you thought it was a perfectly valid POV?

He didn't say it this time round.

That was pretty much how he meant it D1, and it's how it appears (to me) here as well.

But he suggested it, so is he wrong or right Emp?

[Toro]

Post your case, you've

never

had a case on me. At all.

[Toro]

Alrighty daybreak post.

Empking played like a damn fool this game, he did nothing of the sort to suggest that he's town and failed to properly defend himself until

after

the hammer. For someone who claimed that Hiraki was town he did not post his case why, which appeared to everyone as an attempt to just divert attention to me. Hiraki on the other hand exclaimed to everyone that Empking is town and we shouldn't lynch him, but

he would not try to explain why.

If you adamantly believe that someone is town and is on the wrong wagon you should at least post your reasons on how Empking is town. The way Hiraki handled the whole situation yesterday is downright scummy, he pulled the exact same stunt on Robo D1 and now we've got another townie hanging because of this. And now he wants to vote me for the lynch D3, why? He has never posted a case on me whatsoever (except for 401) and that "case" was pure garbage.

Some alternatives I feel that we could follow are Kcdaspot and Nikanor. Nikanor's play is just coming off as scummy to me, he's in the same boat with Hiraki with trying to get a lynch on me without posting reasons why. Is it not common knowledge that if you're going to accuse somebody of something, at least let it be known why you're accusing them? Kcdaspot is my next suspect as he's been playing as just a follower for the majority of this game. Now I know I may've said earlier that this is both his town/scum metas but when it's getting down to the nitty gritty like it is now he should be one that we must be watching out for.

[Toro]

The hell does it matter? If you have a case post it.

[Toro]

I don't have one ready. Nor do I feel motivated to make one.

However, I have reasons why you are scum.

And they are extremely obvious.

Pre Edit: Oh Silavor.

What's wrong with you.

Give me awhile.

So you can't even post reasons? I'm asking for a case aka reasons, not a giant wall.

Vote: Hiraki

[Toro]

A case aka reasons still takes time.

I'm working on it.

So what you're saying is you didn't have them to begin with and

now

you're trying to build one. Right.

Bullet points, now.

[Toro]

First. Opportunistic. #12 highlights this. #7 complements this lightly and is also a shitty vote.

My #12 opportunistic?

You were pulling the "SCREW YOU I DON'T WANNA DO IT!" card remember? Did you not say town shouldn't explain themselves completely and you were considering on not even throwing up a wall? That vote was completely warranted.

And you can't call my #7 opportunistic when it's practically the same thing you did with calling out Robo on that 3rd question. Don't be a hypocrite.

And you want to talk about opportunistic? How about you wanting to rush-lynch Robo D1 in Post 93?

How did he make the jump to not feeling like doing it to I don't have any time? If he said earlier he didn't have any time to make it today I would've been perfectly fine with that and I wouldn't have tacked on my vote.

Did it really matter? I gave you a time in which I would do it.

If I was to delay something 3 days then fine, that's acceptable, but no. I said the next day.

You said your wall wasn't even necessary, and then you stalled it.

To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.

So your tells are now opinionated.

Nice.

Opinionated? I called it like I saw it, your post where you jump off Robo's wagon certainly isn't going to win you any Oscars anytime soon. Neither is your rush to try and save Empking. If you believed he was town you would try posting your reasons why, not flailing your arms and going all headhunter on me.

Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.

...And your point?

My point is you were just pushing SO HARD for a Robo lynch D1 before he got his "2nd wind" then you went all "But wait guys! He can't be scum now!" That's the first time he 'proved you wrong.' Which is ironic because that didn't prove he was wrong, that just showed your flip-flopping scum. Why would you hammer someone who 'proved you wrong?' Even worse you made up all of that 'Oh I said Friday? lolz jk I mean Thursday!"

Here he tries to brush off the reasons for him jumping off the wagon

Yes. I was going to stop "bussing" Robo.

OH WAIT. HE WASN'T SCUM.

Yet you A) Wanted to quicklynch him prior to you going berserk. And B) YOU hammered him.

No.

These reasons are piss poor. We can all agree on this. Toro has set his sights on me since D1, and this certainly is not a townie tunnel.

No they're not, you're just completely contradicting them now and trying to have a "Aw Shucks did I do that?" look to yourself about the Robo wagon. And once again don't be a hypocrite, there have been many people that went after you and Empking and I'm the one whom you've singled out.

Oh look.

I wonder if there may be a reasoning here. Maybe it's because of your shitty reasoning.

Nikanor has not posted a reason on why I'm scum, just that my case is terrible. He has not posted why, all he has done is try and clear your name. And whatever happened to you trying to lynch Nikanor yesterday? Why have you dropped your suspicions on him? Because he agrees with you?

[Toro]

Man, we would be in trouble if scum could shoot straight.

kcdaspot is still not looking good. Toro's hammer was really bad as well, especially after he made such a big deal about Hiraki hammering prematurely. More in the morning when I'm less tired.

The

clear

difference is, I have never in this thread called Empking town and his postings just screamed scum and he couldn't defend himself properly until after the hammer. Hiraki "thought" that Robo was town (and provided a crappy reason to justify his thinking) and yet he still hammered.

[Toro]

right... well... guess we start where we left off...

VOTE: hiraki

^^^ not a vote.

i'll give him a last chance

So what you're saying is you didn't have them to begin with and now you're trying to build one. Right.

Bullet points, now.

Hey guys, remember that thing earlier in the game when Hiraki said he would post a case later and he did? Notice how freaking out about his delaying now just makes you look like you're searching for any reason to vote him?

Of course, kcda is well above reasons, as can be seen in his explanation-less vote following Hiraki's wall. kcda, why is Hiraki scum?

The clear difference is, I have never in this thread called Empking town and his postings just screamed scum and he couldn't defend himself properly until after the hammer. Hiraki "thought" that Robo was town (and provided a crappy reason to justify his thinking) and yet he still hammered.

I wasn't referring to that. I was talking about how you repeatedly attack Hiraki for hammering on Thursday instead of Friday, but you saw no issue with quickhammering Empking when there was plenty of time left in the day.

kcda and Matt attacking Hiraki for, uh, being tired at night is probably as low as it gets in inventing reasons to bandwagon.

Vote Toro

I'd still rather lynch kcdaspot, but this wagon is pretty cool too.

If you bothered reading the thread, Hiraki 'til that point had NEVER posted any reason for voting me. Pay attention please.

[Toro]

We applied roughly the same pressure if not more

How much? 760 torr?

If you bothered reading the thread, Hiraki 'til that point had NEVER posted any reason for voting me. Pay attention please.

I think the problem with you is that you're taking everything literally.

Do you think I didn't suspect you at all when I voted you before?

Do you think it was just a random vote?

I'll get to the response in a moment. I'm eating.

Are you denying that you never posted a single reason to vote for me prior to your wall? All you've been doing is flailing your arms saying "OMG EMPKING IS TOWN" "OMG ROBO IS TOWN" "OMG TORO IS SCUM"

[Toro]

My #12 opportunistic?

You were pulling the "SCREW YOU I DON'T WANNA DO IT!" card remember? Did you not say town shouldn't explain themselves completely and you were considering on not even throwing up a wall? That vote was completely warranted.

Considering. Didn't mean I wasn't though. Again, this is your critical attitude looking for the words rather than what they mean.

If this is where we had to prove to a jury who to lynch then it'd be fine. However it's not. So bye.

So you're denying that you're playing like the equivilent of a child and now we can't take any of your posts seriously? You said you considered not doing your wall as it wasn't necessary, my sarcasm detector doesn't work over the internet Hiraki.

And you can't call my #7 opportunistic when it's practically the same thing you did with calling out Robo on that 3rd question. Don't be a hypocrite.

Not really.

Yes really. You claimed Robo to be scum on the way he answered the third question, I called out Amor on the way he answered the third question. You can't say I'm being opportunistic when you pulled the same stunt.

And you want to talk about opportunistic? How about you wanting to rush-lynch Robo D1 in Post 93?

It was a good lynch. Why do we need to talk when we could've just got it done and over with there.

You said your wall wasn't even necessary, and then you stalled it.

I really don't think it's necessary at this point though.

HMM.

LET'S THINK. WHY WOULD I NOT SEE IT NECESSARY TO MAKE A WALL ABOUT SOMEONE I WANTED DEAD ON PAGE 4?

HMM.

This doesn't change the fact that you wanted Robo dead right on the spot D4, before you decided to post a wall. Or wait...am I not allowed to believe this because I'm being too literal? You can't be serious if you're trying to discredit everything I say by saying I'm being too literal when you're the one saying these stupid things.

Opinionated? I called it like I saw it, your post where you jump off Robo's wagon certainly isn't going to win you any Oscars anytime soon. Neither is your rush to try and save Empking. If you believed he was town you would try posting your reasons why, not flailing your arms and going all headhunter on me.

Yes it was opinionated.

When you try to make something scummy and put the words, "to me" and "sincere" in it. You're not showing anything scummy that every other person could relate to.

And this comes from the guy who's for literal accusations! Ha.

I wasn't talking about me being 'sincere' about it,

your

backtracking on Robo was completely insincere, you're a terrible actor.

My point is you were just pushing SO HARD for a Robo lynch D1 before he got his "2nd wind" then you went all "But wait guys! He can't be scum now!" That's the first time he 'proved you wrong.' Which is ironic because that didn't prove he was wrong, that just showed your flip-flopping scum. Why would you hammer someone who 'proved you wrong?' Even worse you made up all of that 'Oh I said Friday? lolz jk I mean Thursday!"

You do realize one of the major problems with Robo was that he failed to ever speak of a defense?

Do you think that because I call someone scummy, I'm going to lynch them?

So now you're denying that you wanted to quicklynch him. Nice. You were practically screaming that he was scum and he needed to die right then and there.

Not to mention, if someone has L-1 Status and says they're going to come back out of nowhere with a defense, I really can't see scum.

That's crap thinking and you know it, anyone can come back with a "second wind" regardless of alignment.

Then he didn't come back with a defense, that could partially be my fault. Sorry.

Also, Robo didn't prove me wrong. He started to show signs of proving me wrong.

But then he didn't back them up.

Ha! You just contradicted yourself! You claim that only (and you said ONLY) town players can come back from L-1 with a "second wind." Why hammer a townie!? You even say it in this post that I'm quoting that you

still

don't see second winds as scum move!

Yet you A) Wanted to quicklynch him prior to you going berserk. And B) YOU hammered him.

We've played before right?

This is what I do.

We've never played together before, not to my knowledge at least.

This is your typical play? Yikes.

No they're not, you're just completely contradicting them now and trying to have a "Aw Shucks did I do that?" look to yourself about the Robo wagon. And once again don't be a hypocrite, there have been many people that went after you and Empking and I'm the one whom you've singled out.

Yeah there are people who have gone after me.

Not since D1 though.

You've been scummy to me

since

D1. Am I not allowed to continue to pursue cases against those I find scummy?

Nikanor has not posted a reason on why I'm scum, just that my case is terrible. He has not posted why, all he has done is try and clear your name. And whatever happened to you trying to lynch Nikanor yesterday? Why have you dropped your suspicions on him? Because he agrees with you?

Who said I did? You're definite scum and people seem to like Nikanor. I'll get rid of him some other time.

After you're dead.

Wait wait wait, hold the phone. You're not going after Nikanor because people seem to

like

him? WTF? And you'll get rid of him some other time...people, please tell me that doesn't sound town-like at all.

-----------------------

Long story short, Hiraki in this previous post completely scum-slipped, lynch this elemental fool now.

[Toro]

What am I misrepping of Hiraki silavor?

And why is this flying over everybody's heads?

Ha! You just contradicted yourself! You claim that only (and you said ONLY) town players can come back from L-1 with a "second wind." Why hammer a townie!? You even say it in this post that I'm quoting that you still don't see second winds as scum move!

Hiraki

HAMMERED

on a player who according to his logic was 100% townie. How are we

not

lynching this guy right now?

[Toro]

Sorry about that.

All is good.

I really don't see Hiraki as scum because of that, though. Scum would have no reason to bail on a wagon last minute and then go back and hammer when they could coast until lynch without attracting much flack.

I think you've got blinders pulled over your eyes.

Why would Hiraki hammer someone whom he believed was 100% town (using his second wind logic)? Why not push for an alternative lynch for D1? (Although there was only 2 RL days left)

[Toro]

Hiraki's looking super scummy though. One of the key pieces being Hiraki's "scum dun get second wind, and robo just got a second wind, obviously making robo town. Mkay, gonna hammer robo now" thing.

I don't think you're getting this.

Robo looked like he was going for a Second Wind. I jumped the gun, I said he did get one.

Did he post something after that was in defense? No he didn't.

Therefore, he didn't have a second wind.

He just promised one, but it never came.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

Yet only town can proclaim they're going to have a second wind, amirite? I mean you said it so of course it's right, right?

[Toro]

Also, note how Toro didn't really address my argument, just quoted it, said I had blinders, and repeated his mantra about why Hiraki is scummy?

Sorry I did not know you were asking for my insight on that. I'll address it now.

I really don't see Hiraki as scum because of that, though. Scum would have no reason to bail on a wagon last minute and then go back and hammer when they could coast until lynch without attracting much flack. So Hiraki really just strikes me as skittish town.

Actually Hiraki's excuse to bail off the wagon at the last second was because Robo claimed he was having a "second wind." How could Hiraki go from 100% scum on Robo to 100% town the next moment based on that reasoning? It makes no sense as a town move. Hiraki could've coasted until lynch yes, but he flipflopped making as much noise as possible doing so. It makes no sense to me why claiming having a second wind can completely flip someone's town/scum judgment.

[Toro]

Toro.

Are you reading my posts?

Maybe I'll copy you next.

Because I know you're not reading them now.

Yes I read it. You flipped from 100% scum on Robo to 100% town because of something he claimed he was going to do.

[Toro]

And you just don't believe it?

Not at all that it was genuine.

[Toro]

I feel like Hikari has been towntelling, and that Toro has towntold earlier in the game but is now just focused on tunneling Hikari. Who do you suspect that isn't Hikari, Toro? We know one of your reads, that's it. I want to see more from you.

Kcdaspot - I'm not completely sold he's scum so far as his meta has turned out to be the same when playing as both town and scum. He has mostly not participated much in scumhunting and seems to be 'going with the flow' at the moment. I'm going to have to completely re-read him in ISO before I can make a final judgment.

Nikanor - Has his play not come across as odd throughout this whole game? He hasn't posted any reasons why I'm scum but conveniently placed himself on my wagon.

Thus far Hiraki, Kcdaspot, and Nikanor are my main three scumspects. With Hiraki head-and-shoulders taking the lead.

[Toro]

Hey guys.

If you really need convincing, compare townToro and scumToro.

townToro is calm and collected. He works like a badass.

Thank you for appreciating my work ethic.

scumToro is overly active making sure every single detail is correct.

He also insults more in scumToro than in townToro. It's more of an equal thing though.

Here's where you start skewing off the right path, I get 'snippy' when people can't see scum right in front of them and pussyfoot their way around it. I also make sure every single detail is correct.

lol.
I'd better get mega town cred when Toro flips scum.

matt, you should bus Toro already.

I'm voting MPR tomorrow, btw. You know, after Toro's scum flip.

Considering you haven't done

anything

but tack on your vote, you're right you should completely get full credit for a mislynch.

[Toro]

With what part? That I don't get snippy at people who can't see obv-scum in front of them or the making sure every detail is correct part?

[Toro]

Way to be specific.

[Toro]

What?

Woops. It was only two points. So that means both.

[Toro]

Oh I misread that. My apologies.

The second.

making sure every detail is correct

How is this wrong? That in this game that every single detail IS NOT correct? Or that I don't make sure every single detail is correct when I've played under both factions?

[Toro]

So when I play as both factions?

[Toro]

I beg to differ. (Regarding your first point.)

Why would I pay more attention to details as scum than town? In order to be a productive member of the town you must pay attention to close details. Now indeed I didn't do that as much a couple years back but over time I've become much more effective hunting scum and paying attention to details.

[Toro]

Nikanor may be scum.

..... you know what.. this is a useless back and forth and no one is going to budge.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nikanor

Can we get a actual wagon?

Why so eager to get a wagon going? There's still some other players votes unaccounted for in the me v Hiraki deal, while I would agree with a Nikanor lynch as he's just been god-awful/scummy in this game as of late. I'm still 100% sold Hiraki is scum.

really thoo i hate moving my vote off of hiraki... but i can deal with a nikanor lynch.

Hmm...if you hate it so much then you really shouldn't be moving your vote off of Hiraki. *squints eyes*

[Toro]

Uh...Nik? That's the mod.

[Toro]

silavor. You're dead tomorrow.

I hope you realize this.

That's all.

The anger is strong with this one, how many people have you pulled this on now?

[Toro]

(Sorry posting from iTouch right now)

Nikanor still hasn't provided his case on me. All he's done is still call me obv-scum when he hasn't posted anything to have shown why.

Unvote

Vote: Nikanor

That's L-1, post your case.