Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[Exe]

Oh and by the way.

ZINGER VOTED HIMSELF.

Why the fuck is that being ignored?

Why does anyone think Zinger is prob-town!?

[GhostWriter]

Game is stagnating. Furthermore, I've got enough from the previous day, as well as this one to go ahead and VOTE: Lynch with peace of mind. Mostly, I need a flip, not gonna lie.

Expand on this.

My list is essentially the same as it was yesterday, with Imaginality rising high enough to get a top 2 spot. Amrun takes the other spot.

[Amrun]

And why is that, Ghostwriter.

Exe: Agree. No one seems to be listening to sense about Zinger.

[MrTrow]

few questions:

@GW: at the start of day 2, you provided a janitor-wiki-link: do you recall why?

@GreyIce: you`ve listed your top 3, for not providing content a.t.m. and not being one of your 'firm town read's, does this list work both ways, as in may i assume that everyone else has produced content or is one of your townreads?

---------
short reaction:
@Exe:
independent of allignment zinger screwed up, if he is/was town that screwed up so bad he actually believed self-voting to be the 'right move', the mafia would have all the more reason to want him janitored.
I have no intention of risking the game on assuming 'slightly screwed up scum' over 'slightly more screwed up town' especially given his actions as 'a townie that truely believes getting lynched at that point provides most info' were pretty consistent.

@smargaret: About the 'mechanics require flips to be closed' debate.
The 'doc has to be in the same time, so the doc isn`t identified' argument:
True but (as the example below it indicated) that only applies if the ressurected doesn`t have(or at least, confirmed not having used) a timemachine otherwise it`s even harder for the doc to revive someone (the mafia still knows the target time). If the time doesn`t lie in the future it requires a doc with a timemachine (which i`ve already pointed out as unlikely in combination with town-o-commuters).
Bottomline, even with these mechanics, resurrection isn`t as easy as it sounds.
That in combination with 'a confirmed townie or 2 isn`t that rare' , makes the 'has to be closed flip'-conclusion incorrect (at least the 'has to' part)


more in an hour or 2

[Amrun]

Question for all: did you know our top 2 votes would be public?

[Tragedy]

Question for all: did you know our top 2 votes would be public?

If you read the rules about x amount of times, you would notice that it says that the top 2 votes are public...
Memes. I did notice as well.

[Amrun]

Oh. Well, I didn't. Maybe Zinger didn't?

[Exe]

independent of allignment zinger screwed up,

False.

Self-voting is considered a viable strategy as scum.
It is not, as town.

Your whole "not risking this game on.." part is crap. You're making a BIGGER assumption by assuming that Zinger is mentally challenged rather than playing to a rarely-ever-wrong scumtell.
You're basically handing him a free VI card.

[GhostWriter]

When I posted the link, we were discussing the role being janitored. I was posting it to show that a janitor janitors at night. I had never seen it done at any other time.

Amrun, along with the things that got you there yesterday, your survival-over-hunting attitude is certainly part of it.

[Amrun]

Lol. Okay. I disagree. It's already out in the open that I'm a power role. Learn to distinguish between pr tells and scumtells.

[GhostWriter]

Sure will make it easier to get Imaginality lynched then.

[Maxous]

GreyICE is obvtown. This wagon on him is scum driven, I almost guarantee. That or none of you have ever played with Grey before.

That would be Red Coyote, Kcdaspot and sorta Amrun(she has'nt been quite clear on this).
Which one is the mafia?

It's already out in the open that I'm a power role. Learn to distinguish between pr tells and scumtells.

So..you are basically admitting GhostWriter is correct about your survival over scumhunting.
And your response is 'you can't lynch me I'm a power role'.
Am I correct in remembering that you dropped these breadcrumbs for your role only after RC was questioning you and you thought you were going to get lynched?

[Amrun]

No. I don't think he's correct, as I have scumhunted more than most people in the thread. However, I do have a higher than average lookout for survival due to PR.

And you're also incorrect that I didn't "breadcrumb" until I came under pressure. Are you quite sure you know what bread crumbing means?

I preserved my own survival for the good of the town by saying I am a PR. That's not breadcrumbing.

I do have an actual breadcrumb, but good luck finding it. It's nontraditional on purpose. I think it's too easy for scum to fake the usual sort so I don't do them.

This was my first PR on MS and I tried to be just a little scummy on D1 to avoid the nk. Can you say backfired plan? I can. I learned my lesson.

[MrTrow]

@exe: uhm.. it was me who said that (not imag)
As for 'the self-vote tell': i`ve seen 2 self-votes before (not counting the ones that were unvoted in the same post), both times by town.
The only reason i can think of, why it`s a good scum tactic, is because it denies town information: basically a 'yes i`m scum, yes you caught me, no i`m not saying anything else that may help you locate my buddy'.
Zinger however posted a list of top-x suspects, plus a case on the nr1 after claiming he would self-vote and kept his word.

@GW:
So what has changed your mind?
Between you posting the link and you voting towards a lynch 'mostly because you need a flip'
most of the 'janitor related discussion' was about, was zinger scum or not
and we`re the mechanics a dead-give-away, that this has to be a no-flip-game.

@Amrun: did read the votes would be public, it was stated again page 2, forgot it soon afterwards though.
Why does it matter?
More importantly why is it relevant whether or not zinger knew it? (if i get the thought-process right, 'why would zinger-scum be more likely to selfvote if he thought it would be kept secret?')

ninja-edit:
uhm amrun you did state you left breadcrumbs for RC in particular 'because he was carefully reading your posts'

[GhostWriter]

Either I will get a flip, and know we have a janitor, or I won't, and know we're most likely in a no-flip game. However, I'd like to assume we have a day janitor. I didn't know there was a such thing as a day-janitor until she said it. I was, indeed, implying this might be a no-flip game until that.

[Exe]

@Max:
Well Kcd is probtown, which leaves either RC or Amrun. I'd say either one is equally likely, as Amrun is in my experience fond of pushing for easy-crappy wagons as scum. RC is possible because his list just makes absolutely no sense and I can't see his reasoning as town.

@Trow:
Oh wow, I totally screwed up that quote. Sorry Imaginality >.> That should read MrTrow.
You've seen 2 self-votes from townies? Do you frequent newbie games? Regardless, these are exceptions (and exceptionally dumb people, apparently).

Zinger however posted a list of top-x suspects, plus a case on the nr1 after claiming he would self-vote and kept his word.

Most likely because Zinger didn't expect VI-KCD to be against him, and actually thought he could pull off the mislynch.

You're basically giving Zinger a super-duper-town read based on one post...when there's a whole list of D1 posts AND a self-vote against it.

Occam's razor people. Come on.

I'm still thinking DB as number 1. Perhaps RC in the second slot? Ugh, fuck no flip.

[Exe]

Second: this is a game of motivation. What town-motivation would Zinger have for voting himself?

[imaginality]

Everything about the way Amrun has handled her PR so far, and the probable nature of it, makes me think scum PR.

[Amrun]

Imaginality: if Zinger didn't know the votes would be revealed but DID know he would be janitored, he may have self-voted to assure he was on the chopping block.

And I said I left hints for RC, or anybody, but I knew RC would catch them bc we have played together before. Those hints started coming after pressure and do not allude to which PR I have. My breadcumb came before pressure and is role-specific.

PIedit: I clearly didn't handle it that well, but as I said, it's my first PR. Technically, it's my first non-scum PR, but whatever. I fail to see how I have handled it in a way that scum would. Either be specific or don't say it.

[imaginality]

@GhostWriter, to reply to your earlier point: There's still no contradiction between calling you over-cautious for one particular post and not viewing the rest of your posts as over-cautious. You also didn't deny your post let you fence-sit: do you agree or disagree that you saying this:

Truth be told, I've got an insane gut feeling Imaginality is scum. Since all gut feelings are based on something registered by the subconscious, I'm gonna try going over his posts to figure out why I feel like this. Just letting you all know this A) to, admittingly, prod-dodge while I take time to do this and B) so no one is surprised if he jumps up my list.

gave you the opportunity to rest some reasonless suspicion on me while allowing you to either try to justify it, or to back down from it?

As for the over-caution here, let me put it this way: if you hadn't made this post, and had then made a post containing a case against me and putting me high on your scumlist, I don't think any reasonable person would be worried by that shift, assuming your case had merit. So to seek to get permission in advance from town is over-cautious and seems like you were testing the water to see whether targeting me would stir too many ripples.

My sense that that post of yours read scummily is further strengthened by the fact you didn't actually bother to read me in iso (your claimed reason for the post): your current push to get me lynched is based solely on my response to that post of yours.

Looking back at your D1 posts, I see a similarish instance of stalling in #217 in response to smargaret's suggestion in #216. I don't see why you didn't list your suspects anyhow, even if you said, "3rd and 4th might switch." Not listing them allowed you to see a lot of other players' lists before giving yours.

Also, with regard to you voting Kcdaspot over Zinger2099, you seem to contradict yourself:

iso52: "Didn't get a revised list in before it ended. On my original list, Kcda was higher up than Zinger."
iso53: "I sent in 3 lists throughout that time. Each time, the order that I placed Kcda and Zinger changed whilst trying to make up my mind. The last one sent in had Kcda higher than Zinger"

Was the list that got used the original list, or the 3rd list?

As for D1-towniness: meh, looking back at your play D1 I see a number of questions asked and points made but no consistent pressure applied to anyone in particular. Your only case was on Doombunny9 and that was pretty much just one post and one follow-up remark. I think the apparent-towniness I and others credited you with has been overstated.

[Amrun]

Imaginality: if Zinger didn't know the votes would be revealed but DID know he would be janitored, he may have self-voted to assure he was on the chopping block.

And I said I left hints for RC, or anybody, but I knew RC would catch them bc we have played together before. Those hints started coming after pressure and do not allude to which PR I have. My breadcumb came before pressure and is role-specific.

PIedit: I clearly didn't handle it that well, but as I said, it's my first PR. Technically, it's my first non-scum PR, but whatever. I fail to see how I have handled it in a way that scum would. Either be specific or don't say it.

Top part of this post is addressed to MrTrow. P-edit was addressed to imaginality. Sorry.

[imaginality]

And I said I left hints for RC, or anybody, but I knew RC would catch them bc we have played together before.

You say this is your first PR though? Do you just mean you knew RC is a smart player? You said at the start you've also played with "a bunch of people, including Tragedy, GreyICE, Exe, RC and don't remember who else from the playerlist." So I don't get what's specific to RC.

This was my first PR on MS and I tried to be just a little scummy on D1 to avoid the nk.

How, specifically? What did you deliberately do to be scummy?

I think you have a scum PR because you:

(a) started hinting about it to deter people from putting you up for nomination. On balance I think town PRs would at least be more likely to twice about hinting before they absolutely have to, since if scum spot the hint, they become a night-kill target. This is a small difference though, let's say 52-48 towards scum PR rather than town PR
(b) confirming Kcdaspot's time machine claim today immediately - town PRs in that situation have good reason to wait and see if Kcdaspot can defend himself (not that having a time machine = town anyhow, so that makes me doubly unclear why you'd confirm it if it doesn't prove his role). Waiting means you get more information from the day (seeing who believes/disbelieves Kcdaspot before oyu confirm what he said) and keeps you more under the radar, also leaving scum in the dark for longer about the nature of your power. Again, would a town PR be so quick to act like this?
(c) placing a fair amount of confidence in your breadcrumb's significance, which is not scummy in itself (town PRs might also leave a good clear breadcrumb) but has a kind of 'conscious confidence' feel to it to me. What I mean is, it reads like you are a scum PR who likes the fact she's been able to leave a genuine PR breadcrumb and doesn't have to lie about her role, just her alignment.
(d) talking as if PR = townPR e.g. "However, I do have a higher than average lookout for survival due to PR", rather than recognising that proving your PR doesn't prove your alignment.

To be clear, if the choice is just between town PR and scum goon, I'd call you town PR. But scum PR looks likelier to me, at the moment.

Also to be clear, I don't want you to, and am not asking you to, discuss the nature of your PR in any more detail yet, unless you're either nominated, or at least a very clear front-runner for being nominated. (And I don't think we have a consensus yet on who the preferred nominees are, or at least, it's not clear to me.)

[imaginality]

Actually,

@everyone

please give your current top 3 preferred nominations in your next post.

Mine:

1. Amrun
2. GhostWriter
3. Tragedy

[Amrun]

I've played with RC more than anyone else, and knew that he would read my posts carefully since he suspected me.

I did several things to be scummy. The way I pushed kcdaspot early on was supposed to set me up to be a LITTLE scummy. And then I realized that it was making me look a lot more scummy than I intended. Like I said, lesson learned.

Yes, I realized that most PRs have reason to keep quiet. Had I not been clearly headed for a nomination for scummy actions I purposefully engineered that backfired, I would have LOVED not to say I was a PR. Trust me. Still, I have my reasons, which will be expanded upon if I am ever nominated.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't think breadcrumbs are important at all. I tried to place one, but I think normal breadcrumbs are stupid, so I didn't do that. When and if I full claim, people will either believe or disbelieve breadcrumbs. I don't put a lot of stock in them myself. They're easy for scum to fake. The nonchalance about my breadcrumb is simply that I think breadcrumbs in general are a crock of shit so I don't care about them. I was just responding to Maxous.

[GhostWriter]

Imaginality, welcome to the wonderful world of reaction testing. I didn't have a good read on you, I threatened to vote you so I could see what would happen. Your reaction was scummy. I fail to see how me wanting you lynched for something scummy is scummy because I tricked you. Doesn't change what you did.

There is no contradiction: if there are 2 people on the chopping block, and I send in 3 lists, changing the 2 people each time, then the 3rd one is the exact same as the original list. So I gave him back the original list. But I've gotta ask: where would this line of questioning go?

For the record, I agree that my towniness in the eyes of others is a bit odd. I don't think I did anything incredible for the town. Doesn't change that it's there, though. And that I am completely aware of it. So that point is moot. As I said, regardless of the reason I'm there, I am, indeed, there in a number of eyes. Actually, I think I only get called scum when I target someone else as scum. Hint hint, no matter how you try to gussy up this OMGUS attack, it's still just an OMGUS attack. Also, where was this point about my towniness going? It could possibly impact the point I made about it before, so where were you thinking of taking it?