Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[Amrun]

Out of that, you think I didn't think or mean everyone to see them? Really?

[GhostWriter]

No, out of that, I see it as you leaving things specifically for him to find, so that he could "confirm" you. I'm pretty sure I was making that clear.

[Amrun]

That doesn't make sense. It's not like it's some cryptic code. It's blatantly hinting and then outright saying that I am a PR.

[Amrun]

I feel inclined to channel SpyreX and call this "moonbeams."

[GhostWriter]

It does make sense. It was you laying down a hint, in the hopes that RC would notice it and mention it, so you could have someone who's town back you. You got frustrated when this didn't happened, and so decided to try to make him mention them.

[Amrun]

...

No.

Just no.

That's a retarded plan for anyone in any alignment ever.

[GhostWriter]

You're right, what was I thinking. Why on earth would scum want a townie to pick up on a breadcrumb so that they could gain their support? I'm so stupid...

[Maxous]

I'm unsure about Amrun stating a growing feeling about GreyICE being mafia than lately saying her gut tells her he is probably town, not she is leaning town with him.
Amrun I'm going to need your top suspects please..

Imaginality, welcome to the wonderful world of reaction testing. I didn't have a good read on you, I threatened to vote you so I could see what would happen. Your reaction was scummy.

Just to absolutely clarify did you actually have a gut feeling about imaginality being scum when you made the post or was that simply a gambit you made to get a reaction from a null read?

List of the Scum
1. MrTrow
2. Imaginality
3. Smargaret

I don't get why Mr.trow is first and smargaret is third. Is'nt your case on Mr.Trow that himself and smargaret are mafia buddies?
Also:

'Would've called GreyICE town, but his disappearance makes him null.

Is this your opinion on Grey? I'm not sure what that is referring to.

yeah okay trag is not scum..

Well that was quite quick
Oddly enough it increases my town read on you.

Yes, and I acknowledged that I picked them up with the advice that you might as well give a full on claim. Now, you wisely avoided this advice (although it was still risky to do so) and ended up not being nominated for a lynch.

Don't get this. Why did you advise her to claim if you think it was a better idea she did'nt?

[Maxous]

Wait, more importantly Amrun: Did you actually suspect KCD as mafia during day 1 or was that just a ruse the whole day?

[GhostWriter]

Imaginality, welcome to the wonderful world of reaction testing. I didn't have a good read on you, I threatened to vote you so I could see what would happen. Your reaction was scummy.

Just to absolutely clarify did you actually have a gut feeling about imaginality being scum when you made the post or was that simply a gambit you made to get a reaction from a null read?

I had a null read on him, so I wanted to see how he reacted to pressure. Can't vote, so I threatened to add him high on my list.

[Tragedy]

A) MrTrow > Smargaret in terms of scum. Also, Smarg vanished again.
B) Yes, my opinion on GI is of being more null than ever. He's more active at Quack Multiball, when he's town, though. :\

[Amrun]

Yes, I did suspect kcdaspot yesterday. A couple of things he has said and done over the course of day 2 tell me that he's town.

Grey... I flip-flop on. As I said, my gut tells me he's town while my head tells me he is scum. Which should I trust? I don't know. I'm null leaning town on him pending more information.

Top 3:

1. Smargaret
2. MrTrow
3. Red Coyote

[imaginality]

@Imaginality: When you mentioned "VTs are apparently Casual Bystanders", you're now claiming that you're a PR, possible scum there. "Just" a Casual Bystander can still mean you're only a VT, and who the fuck would suddenly come back with a second claim that you aren't a VT, srsly. He knows he's a VT when you know the VT's role name.. And it makes it revealing that you aren't a VT at all, so it makes me think you're a scum PR, at the moment.

Whether I am a power role or a VT, and I'm not saying either way (and the first quote above was also intended to not comment either way on that), the Casual Bystanders = VT thing was out in the open as soon as Zinger2099 had called himself Casual Bystander and multiple people hadn't questioned him over it. Everyone (well, everyone who was paying attention) knew the VT's rolename at that point, whether they believed Zinger2099 was VT or whether they believed he was scum who knew the VT rolename.

I'm not sure what your 'just a Casual Bystander' is referring to, it's Zinger2099 who said that, not me. Is that what's confusing you? Because otherwise I still fail to see your point.

[Tragedy]

So, when was the name "Casual Bystander" first mentioned?

[Amrun]

By Zinger.

[Tragedy]

About "Scum getting a VT Role PM"...

• imaginality has brought up to us that if VTs were oddly named, then the other roles would be oddly named as well.
  In this case,
  Why would Scum bother having a 'VT Role PM' when they usually get a 'PR Role PM' to fake with?
  Having a Fake VT Role PM would most likely be imbalanced, because it would be easier for scum to get lynched at this point for claiming it due to being 'unbelievable'. A PR would easily make town more cautious about choosing their lynch targets and its more believable due to its 'Odd Naming'.
  
• If Imaginality was indeed scum, why the hell would he ask a really stupid question about Scum having VT Role PM? Possible Scum showing its breadcrumbs (Trying to look townie), but I'm not sure.

Still, imaginality. "VTs are apparently called Casual Bystanders" is still scummy, for not being a VT at all. If scum DID have a VT Role PM, then that would answer why 'nobody questioned about it'.

[smargaret]

So Amrun's lying about being a PR virgin, but I can't prove it to you because ongoing games. Suffice it to say this is NOT Amrun's first PR. Amrun, do you want to explain this? GW, you know what I'm talking about.

Good news, my fiance promised me a fixed computer tomorrow so my limited activity is officially over.

I still find Trow scummy, GW is even more town, Grey is hovering there in the 3-5 range. I believe Zinger was scum. I'll post more detail tomorrow when I have a better computer to do it from.

1. Zinger
2. Amrun
3. Trow
4. Grey
5. Tragedy (still looking for your case on me)

[Tragedy]

@Smarg : There.

[Amrun]

No, I'm not lying about being a PR "virgin," and I don't think I've ever even played in another game with GhostWriter.

I said I've been scum PR a couple of times, but never town until this game started.

[Amrun]

Well - I was once a vig, but I received the shot right before I died, so I could never use it and I wasn't a PR from the start of the game. Most of my completed games are in my wiki, minus like one or two I haven't put in there yet.

[Amrun]

Oh, and I just checked. I was a mason once in a b-mod game that lasted two days. I don't really consider that a PR though.

[imaginality]

Why would Scum bother having a 'VT Role PM' when they usually get a 'PR Role PM' to fake with?

Consider this scenario:

You're scum. You've been told the VT rolename is 'Casual Bystander'. And, sure, let's say you've also been given a PR role PM to use as a fakeclaim if you want.

You get under pressure D1 and, although there is a decent chance you won't be lynched due to the other wagon also looking scummy, you feel you need to claim. Do you:

(a) fakeclaim PR - risking getting disproven when you have to claim your night actions the next day, removing it as an option for your scumbuddies to claim later, but maybe improving your chances of avoiding being lynched, if people believe your claim, or
(b) fakeclaim VT, so that you and your scumbuddies can get some good PR and VT reads based on how people react to the unusual rolename, which PRs wouldn't know about, and still having a reasonable hope of avoiding the lynch, especially if Kcdaspot also claims VT?

I think fakeclaiming VT is at least pretty arguably the smart choice to make there. Certainly it's better than claiming VT in a normal game (where it doesn't let you fish for PRs), and scum claim VT often enough in normals, so why not here?

[Kcdaspot]

in the end this fakeclaim stuff is just speculation...

fake claims are usually given out when the game is a bit more heavy on flavor... tell me he that been done before where scum were given fake claims on games with little flavor?

[RedCoyote]

My PM just says that I have an unlimited time machine. No clues about scum whatsoever.

Okay, that's all I wanted to know. You actually looked at it again before you said this, right? You're not just going off memory?

---

Is this what I said? I don't think so.

• That or none of you have ever played with Grey before.
  GreyICE puts 100% effort into the game at nearly all times. His current attitude reads as pissed off Grey-town to me.

Zinger was scummy BEFORE he ever self-voted.
His predecessor was scummy.
He was scummy.
And THEN he self-voted.

Except for the last statement, these are all opinions, Exe. There's no reason for you to be condescending. I simply don't agree with you. You can keep screaming at me and stomping your feet, but Zinger was town. I will be treating him as such. Him voting himself has no bearing on the situation whatsoever. I know you're gobsmacked at the idea, but you're just going to have to take it. It's not unheard of, Exe. I've had townies join their own wagons, and I've even had townies lynch themselves. These two are just in games I was in, and I'm sure it's happened many more times on the site. People self-vote all the time. That your making such a big deal of this is beginning to become annoying and increasingly insincere, I think. Then again, that's why I have you so high on my list.

---

I was really looking forward to seeing Zinger's alignment to help solidify some things, but even though I'm 90% convinced he's scum, it's not 100%. Ugh.

When you say things like this, you know, it's like you're almost beating a dead horse.

I might just move the next person who bitches about the no flip up my list. It sucks, okay, everyone gets that. I complained about it too. Look, your just have to suck it up and move on.

---

Tell me why you think GreyICE is scum. I've basically explained my reasoning.

I'll tell you what I told imaginality. Do you really not remember us two going at it yesterday? Going at it over him attaching himself to Kcda, Amrun, and Mist yesterday? Now with him saying Amrun is scum, I mean, that just puts it over the top. I want him gone. No, he doesn't get a pass because of his attitude. That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not going to coddle him for his bad play and just assume he's town like you're doing.

---

When you mentioned "VTs are apparently Casual Bystanders", you're now claiming that you're a PR, possible scum there. "Just" a Casual Bystander can still mean you're only a VT, and who the fuck would suddenly come back with a second claim that you aren't a VT, srsly. He knows he's a VT when you know the VT's role name.. And it makes it revealing that you aren't a VT at all, so it makes me think you're a scum PR, at the moment.

You've lost me. I actually can't sit here and read your arguments seriously because you've made me so upset with you. I really liked you as town, Tragedy. I don't know why you claimed.

---

Think about it for a second.

He scumhunted D1. D2 he became lazy.

What makes more sense.

You know there's an old scumtell that accounts for this kind of sudden change in behavior. I mean, that's been around for a long time.

I'm not necessarily applying it in this case, but I'm certainly not going to give him town points for being lazy.

---

I'm unsure about Amrun stating a growing feeling about GreyICE being mafia than lately saying her gut tells her he is probably town, not she is leaning town with him.

It's likely because she's scum trying to straddle both sides of the argument. Kind of appeasing Exe and kind of appeasing me and/or GW.

Why did you advise her to claim if you think it was a better idea she did'nt?

Oh, no. I'm saying that I advised her to claim yesterday (primarily because I thought she was going to get enough votes to be nominated), but that her not claiming ended up being the better call (because she ended up not getting enough votes).

---

Well - I was once a vig, but I received the shot right before I died, so I could never use it and I wasn't a PR from the start of the game. Most of my completed games are in my wiki, minus like one or two I haven't put in there yet.

Oh, and I just checked. I was a mason once in a b-mod game that lasted two days. I don't really consider that a PR though.

You know these consistent little concessions do nothing but hurt your creditability, right?

So we went from "never been a PR" to "never been a town PR" to "never been a town PR with the exception of other ongoing games" to "never been a town PR with the exception of other ongoing games except for the time that I was a Vig who never got to use the power" to now we're at "never been a town PR with the exception of other ongoing games except for the time that I was a Vig who never got to use the power and also except that I was once a Mason in a short game".

---

in the end this fakeclaim stuff is just speculation...

I don't know that it should even be a serious part of the discussion; it seems more like an Exe-fueled distraction to me. The only problem is motivation. I'm guessing he's motivated to keep Grey from being lynched, but the biggest problem he has is that I don't want him trying to convince me Grey is town. I want Grey to do that.

---

Vote: Lynch

1. GreyICE
   
2. Amrun
   
3. Exe
   
4. Tragedy
   
5. C-Worl
   
6. MrTrow
   
7. imaginality
   
8. Maxous
   
9. smargaret
   
10. Kcdaspot
    
11. GhostWriter
    
12. Zinger

[Amrun]

I looked at it again when the conversation came up to see if kcdaspot's answer matched my pm. It did. It's one of the reasons I believe him. I looked again when you asked just now.

And yes, I know that qualifying those things makes it less credible, but I don't really care. I've never had a PR of this type and I've never had one at all in a serious game. Both of those games where I kind of sort of had a PR but not really were bastard mod crazy games that most people leave out of their records. I don't really consider being given a gun in the middle of a game and being a mason as PRs, either, but whatever. My records were always public.