Open 318: By Nomination Only (Game Over)

[Papa Zito]

Hallo kids.

VOTE: Rory The Roman Lame character is lame.

also

Claim: VT

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Papa Zito

Unnecessary claiming. Everyone in the game will claim VT, whether they are or not.

^^ There's a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance here.

UNVOTE: Rory The Roman
VOTE: Amrun

[Papa Zito]

It's that thing you do when you try to hold oil and water in your brain, and you squeeze and squeeze but they just won't mesh.

For example, some player, let's just call her Mumm-Ra, might say that say that claiming in an all vanilla game is unnecessary and pointless. Which is certainly true. But when Mumm-Ra decides to then vote someone for doing something that's unnecessary and pointless, well, that there's some dissonance.

[Papa Zito]

I don't see a townie mindset for it.

Also:

VOTE: Papa Zito

Unnecessary claiming. Everyone in the game will claim VT, whether they are or not.

This certainly doesn't read as a random vote.

[Papa Zito]

Dat chainsaw.

Thems a lot of words, Rory. And you seem to be drawing a conclusion that I'm a naughty evildoer. Y/N?


Amrun, asking why I claimed is just as null as the claim itself. There's a dynamic involved that you're ignoring or something? Also plz to be sharing with the class what has shaken out with your PZ vote.

V

O

T

E

:

R

O

R

Y

T

H

E

R

O

M

A

N

lulz

[Papa Zito]

GreyICE suggested the optimal play would be to RNG the "normal" lynches. Thoughts?

Sounds like a great way to create an information-deprived town. There's no power roles, so wagons are all you got.

[Papa Zito]

RoryTheRoman, "never had the intention of catching scum" is a strong accusation, and your overly verbose wall does little to justify it. Your lack of vote is at odds with the supposed strength of your accusation.

Dammit, I'm working here.


@Amrun, is the purpose of your PZ vote to shake something out from me or something else? Also dunno how I'm being deliberately opaque, I'm kinda playing open book atm.

I think you should go back and read what I posted again.

[Papa Zito]

If you were being transparent, you would have said why you claimed when asked mutliple times

I killed RVS in one mighty blow!

[Papa Zito]

Something has "shaken out."

Mysterious!

^Scum, with or without Zito.

Haven't yet seen a reason to move.

aroo?

[Papa Zito]

UNVOTE: Amrun
VOTE: Nobody Special

Somehow I missed Rory's response.

Maybe. Either you are a cheap joker who kicks the game alive at the expence of a newby, or you are a fairly obvious scum who fakes his cases by hiding it in complicated words. The conclusion is that regardless of your allignment, your current vote can't be taken seriously.

Way to fence sit.

How do you intend to determine whether I am A or B?

[Papa Zito]

I think I would have voted you if I thought you were scum, don't you think?

You've yet to vote anyone so I have no idea.

Can I interpret this remark to mean you don't see anyone worth voting yet?


P.S. My NS vote is serious.

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Mumm-Ra

This was not a valid vote.

RANDOM THOUGHT BLOCK:

Rory

can I have a top 3 scumlist plz.
You too

spoon

I have no idea what you're thinking atm.
Oooooh I'm liking this Muffin guy already.

Personally, I don't see what people are finding scummy in NS.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Have you read his posts?

Also what's a Fenchurch.


P.S. Mumm-Ra = Amrun cuz whenever I see her name I get Thundercats flashbacks (not a bad thing). How the hell could something like that be so confusing.

[Papa Zito]

Wait, what does my name have to do with thundercats?

It looks like a mashup of Mumm-Ra.

Mumm-Ra is a character on Thundercats.

Look I'm functionally retarded give me a break here.

[Papa Zito]

just for bolding my name...

Just wanted to make sure you saw it.

With a top 3 I was kinda hoping for like

1.
2.
3.

A one line summary next to each would be faboo.

Fenchurch finding NS town makes no sense I agree and the explanation was borderline moonbeams.

[Papa Zito]

Spoon, that's a great post. Thanks.

I like this muffin guy.

Oh yes I can already tell he's going to be a favorite.

[Papa Zito]

@Zito: I fear you'll have to wait a little for your top three. I'll try to provide it to you soon.

Arrite.


@Forest: Why did you comment on NS' VT claim as "convenient", but not mine, or Hoopla's, or Amrun's?

@Copper: You are a hydra why do you only have 3 posts.



P.S. If I were a vig I'd be doing magical things ITT. I swear, no PRs and no NKs yet there's townies here still shuffling around and staring at their feet.
P.P.S. Metaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Papa Zito]

Ummmmmmm I'm not getting the VitaminR wagon shift. Somebody help me.

I mean if we're not going to lynch NS in 3 pages (that's the target page right?) then why isn't the new wagon on forest?

[Papa Zito]

Buddying in this game would be really stupid. Scum need, what, five mislynches to win? And that's assuming they don't get lynched themselves? Durp.

I'm really scratching my head at these last two wagon shifts.

[Papa Zito]

It took me that long because I was still developing reads

orly

^Scum, with or without Zito.

Nothing ambiguous here.

[Papa Zito]

Forest air, why was NS claiming VT a "convenient role for him to claim?"

We already did this dance.

@Forest: Why did you comment on NS' VT claim as "convenient", but not mine, or Hoopla's, or Amrun's?

Because I am ignorant and I completely forgot that you guys claimed, too. Whatever, I still don't see the point in claiming this early for anyone...

I don't understand you here, forest. Claiming vanilla doesn't mean anything, surely?

I guess not. Just looking too much into someone so insignificant.

Underwhelming to be sure.

[Papa Zito]

Nobody Special has requested replacement. Searching for replacements for forest_air, Papa Zito, and Nobody Special...

um

Posting so I don't get replaced. Apparently weekends aren't allowed round these parts.

I'll do realposting tonight.

[Papa Zito]

O M G
C E S

YARR

[Papa Zito]

This is read-as-you-go yaknow.

That's overly elaborate explanation of utility lynching, but it's grounded in logic that makes a lot of sense to me and how I view the game.

UNVOTE: , VOTE: Papa Zito

Hmm

Oh shit. I might get drunk just for that game. It would probs have to be a marathon. Amazing.

Drunk Mafia is a staple of Marathon Day.

So I see you're sheeping Hoops, why? Edit: You change later when nobody else joins. mmhmm. Still want an answer here.

you've still to do this Rory

They did. You're skimming?



Why are we doing pairings Day 1.


woooo I really like Muffin. Rory, no, we're not lynching Muffin, sry.


CES entrace was coo.

malpascp, Zito: what are your thoughts on Rory?

I'm not a fan. Of either of our hydras really.



Not seeing any reason to move my vote atm. All the apologists are just lulz.

Don't think I missed anything significant.

[Papa Zito]

I was feeling uncomfortable about you but unsure what to do with it.

One would suggest scumhunting. You know, read my iso, see who I'm interacting with, poke and prod, that kind of thing.

Hoopla, who knows your scum game better, suspected you for the sameish reasons making my belly twinge.

Hoopla doesn't know my town game + meta doesn't work (but I'm not gonna get into a debate here)

From what I read Hoopla's reasons were basically gut + I haven't "committed enough towntells". Do those reasons match yours? Do you agree that others in this game have committed more towntells than I have? Do you agree that looking at towntells vs scumtells is a good reason to vote someone?

Why does that progression give you the impression it gave? I don't follow.

That's twice you've voted me for what I view as spurious reasons.

the flaked slots of Zito

It's like I'm not even here.

[Papa Zito]

I am underwhelmed over here.

[Papa Zito]

PZ, who do you think is scum?

Right now I want an Ambiguous Letters lynch. NS was terrible and his replacement has somehow managed to be worse (gratz)

Beyond that, like I said I'm not a fan of either of our hydras, and also like I said I find Amrun's votehopping mysterious and creepy.

Also also I'm not quite sure what Hoopla is doing or if I like it.

All that said I think I'm at a point where I need to reread the game a bit.

Ninja:

I really want PZ's scum reads. It's bothering me that his vote hasn't moved in like a week.

^^^

It hasn't moved cuz there's no reason for it to move. I'm kinda baffled over here why this wagon has dissolved tbh but I live in eternal hope that this'll be fixed.

[Papa Zito]

Also, PZ, why are you so sure NS is scum?

Why are you so sure he's not? Also you realize there's a replacement in that slot right?


I'm rereading the game btw.

[Papa Zito]

I don't do meta.

[Papa Zito]

Zito, why did you say Hoopla doesn't know your town meta?

I'm not sure a game from a year ago, in which she was lynched D1 and I replaced out D2, counts. But I'm no expert on this subject.

Vitamin we have this cool iso feature, give it a whirl.


Still need to reread but I got distracted by that linked game. Dat playerlist wowza.

[Papa Zito]

Top 2 scumreads and why GO.

Nobody Special

1. Voting behavior - Claims Hoopla is "scum, with or without Zito" (iso 2) yet maintains the Copper RV. Says he won't move his vote to Hoopla because he's "Not fully convinced yet" (iso 3) and hasn't "yet seen a reason to move" (iso 4) despite his reason for voting Copper only being that he has "experience with Copper" (iso 6). False dichotomy in 6: Is voting Copper instead of Rory due to experience with one hydra vs. the other, despite claimed Hoopla scum read. Later backtracks and admits it was a "combination random/pressure vote" (iso 17).

2. Self-meta - Unasked for, attempts to use self meta to point out his activity is "not lurking" (iso 12/153) - this comes 3 hours after Amrun says "NS lurks and flounders as scum" (iso 29/130).

3. General lack of contribution.

{Note: Amrun then reiterates this in her iso 30/163, an hour after NS' post - seems coordinated. Note also malpascp first list of reads has Amrun in the "Townier" category}

malpascp

1. Voting behavior - Has 3 in "Scummier" list (iso 1) but does not vote. Spends next couple posts defending Hoopla instead of voting. Claims Amrun has "acted scummier that[sic] various other players" (iso 8) despite having 3 others higher on scumlist (iso 1, iso 8) and despite the wagon on Amrun being a "pseudo-policy lynch" (also iso 8).

2. Self-meta - claims replacement is a town-tell (iso 3) as a replacement.

3. Lack of general contribution.

Amrun

1. Game opening - claimed to vote me to "see what shook out" (iso 3) and that it was an "experiment" (iso 8) while also saying the vote was random (also iso 3). (Later says she had a "non-standard use of the word random, which I already explained" (iso 24) but which was never explained) Said claiming VT was pointless (iso 5) yet pushed it. Said she asked "multiple times" for an explanation of why I claimed (iso 8) when she never actually asked. Says something has "shaken out" and unvotes (iso 9) even though not everyone had posted as was required by "experiment" (iso 8).

{{ I've not forgotten this entire sequence. This whole thing was a scum dance. She got caught, did a huge backpedal, escaped ASAP. }}

2. PZ reads - Claims PZ is one of her "two strongest townreads" (iso 31) and reaffirms this in soft defense "I'd love to hear why you're voting for Zito" (iso 41) but then suddenly has "flip flopped on him multiple times" (iso 42). Also claims in 42 that at first I was "a bit scummy" even though she said her read was null (iso 3). Then sheeps onto one of her strongest town-reads (iso 45).

{{ This is why I said her votes on me have been opportunistic }}

3. Fake scumhunting - I'll not post the litany of iso numbers, but reread her mid-day iso and look at all the one-liner questions she's throwing out. Then look for how often she does something with the responses.


I'll be happy to see either one of these hang today. I would prefer malwhatever but I'll certainly not cry about an Amrun lynch.

[Papa Zito]

3rd time's the charm?

[Papa Zito]

Help me lynch him then.

gawd

[Papa Zito]

Harf.

I mean at least VR is pushing me as a candidate

I guess

.

But there sure hasn't been any movement otherwise sooooo

[Papa Zito]

There's a method to this madness.

[Papa Zito]

Oh this game.

I'll take my share of blame for this ofc but we're not gonna have our Happily Ever After at this rate.

Where's my Hoopla.

[Papa Zito]

offered a compromise

See, Amrun, Hoopla offered a malsaldfjslier switch. You vote him, Hoopla votes him, suddenly we have a viable wagon gogogo.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ ITP Rory shows (s)he read that Hoopla post.

Am I going to be the goofy last minute counterwagon? lulz

So I recall (one of) you whining that I was just sitting around occupying a slot, and now that I'm posting you decide it's a great idea to lay your vote on me. Plz to educate the class why this is. Cuz from your iso I can't find anything other than that, maybe you don't like Thundercats?

[Papa Zito]

The answer to that is obviously Zito, Fenchurch, hence my vote.

Amrun, if you were town, I'd expect you to choose who you most think is scum out of Zito and malpascp, and

explain to us why

.

I'm not getting my miracle malosierujaslfk swap am I?

[Papa Zito]

Yeah I don't think I'm getting my five votes in whatever few hours are left.

UNVOTE: malpascp
VOTE: Amrun

Let the games begin.


(cue Equinox in 3, 2, 1...)

[Papa Zito]

I guess I'm to take it it's coincidence that the three candidates are the only ones who've posted so far.

I just checked and no lynch is apparently not an option. So if you guys think all three of you are town then what do you propose?

[Papa Zito]

That there's a big wall.

I want malasldkfj;aslkdjf's opinion on this turn of events.

[Papa Zito]

I don't want to vote any of them.

[Papa Zito]

Meaning I don't know what to do here.

This is debilitating.

[Papa Zito]

Wait I have an idea.

Lynches are decided in one of two ways: If there is a simple majority before the deadline, a lynch will occur and the game will change phase; however, if deadline hits, the lynch will occur by plurality vote (i.e., the player with the most votes will be lynched). In the event of a tie, the player who reached his/her current amount of votes first will be lynched. Please refer to the Setup post for more information about lynching mechanics in this game.

Everyone unvote.

[Papa Zito]

We're not going to no lynch.

We're going to plurality lynch everyone.

[Papa Zito]

Did you? I guess I missed it.

@Mod:

If today ends with 0 votes cast, what do you dooooooooooo?

If zero votes have been cast by deadline, one of the nominees is chosen at random. (Equinox)

If they are all town which many of seem to believe (I do) it's far better to do the random out of the whole group.

[Papa Zito]

I'm so in tune with Muffin it's uncanny. Reminds me of Tajo.

I'm going to go back and read Muffin v. Hoopla.

[Papa Zito]

I like the royal us.

0/3 scum = 0% chance of lynching scum.
3/10 scum = 30% chance of lynching scum.

I'm not good at math but I'm pretty sure that's right.

Read that stuff, reading other two brb.

[Papa Zito]

Not sure if forest understands the set up even remotely, which is probably a towntell.

I want to talk about forest...
but i can't yet because of the ongoing games rule

I'll just have to judge on content for now. Ah...

Just popping in to ask if this is still true.

I'd kinda forgotten how forest was so omg bad.

[Papa Zito]

Bluh.

VOTE: CES

bluh

[Papa Zito]

0/3 scum = 0% chance of lynching scum.
3/10 scum = 30% chance of lynching scum.

This doesn't explain at all why it would be better to lynch randomly from the 3 nominations. Surely it's better to either:
a) lynch the scummiest, since you can't be sure they are all town
b) lynch the least useful, in case they are all town

You didn't understand what I was trying to do. I was hoping that, with 0 votes across the board, it would force the mod to randomly pick a player from the full pool of 10 vs. the pool of 3. The rule I quoted made that interpretation possible.

Did you reread Hoopla v. zMuff? What was your conclusion?

I did. Muffin's arguments against Hoopla weren't strong but oddly enough Hoopla chose to deflect some of his attacks (she frequently said his entire beef with her was based on gut, which wasn't the case). I read through everything with the possible scenarios in mind:

1. town (M) v. town (H): Most likely, as I have town reads on both (independent of the other)
2. scum (M) v. town (H): Muffin replacing in and attacking a player of Hoopla's caliber when there was 0 wagon on Hoopla at the time doesn't make a lot of sense. Continuing the attack when it wasn't yielding any results from other players makes even less sense.
3. town (M) v. scum (H): Next more likely scenario behind TvT (terran OP). While I found Hoopla's reactions somewhat questionable she did do some good parrying questions back which as scum just weren't necessary. It would be far easier for her to simply debunk and move on.
4. scum (M) v. scum (H): I don't see any reason why a scum partner would choose to bus at that stage of the game and in that game state. Especially when considering daytalk and no night game.

Incidentally I also read CES which was what lead to the vote. While he's also a townish read he's below the other two somewhat, mainly due to forest + his tunneling on Amrun for most of Day 1, then basically saying "welp vote: hoopla" at the start of today. If the scum decided to gambit and try to take out a powerful town Hoopla opponent I could see them tossing CES in there as he's been pretty universally praised.

[Papa Zito]

Do those voting him not value the meta argument?

No. Just like I don't really value the Fenchurch bit either. I think all three are town but he's my weakest townread of the bunch.

[Papa Zito]

proddddddddddddddddddddddd

Hoopla, I don't understand your position. As convinced as you are about CES you haven't seen his role PM, yet you've seen yours. Why would you be willing to sacrifice someone you know as 100% town for someone you don't? Further, do you consider CES' abilities and scumhunting to be so far superior to your own that sacrificing yourself for him helps town in the long run?

Also, how much do you bank on meta in a game with scum daytalk?

[Papa Zito]

I think my scumhunting skills are about on par with CES, and I'm willing to be "sacrificed" because I have a higher likelihood of being mislynched at a later point, because I have played scum dishonestly before, and am therefore harder to trust (apparently). CES doesn't have that problem.

You said this when he had more votes than you. ??

Daytalk has nothing to do with whether CES would pick himself (or let himself be picked by his teammates) for nomination.

Coaching.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah, I think Fenchurch might be scum after all.

But the metaaaaaaaas


It looks like I'll have to choose between Hoopla and Muffin and that's just a stupidly stupid choice to have to make. Like, "here's a saw, pick right hand or left hand GO" kind of choice.


Copper, why did you hop to Hoopla.

[Papa Zito]

Is Hoopla your left hand or your right hand?

Hoopla's my left. Is she capable of putting herself up for nomination as an insidious plan to gain town cred? Sure. Does it make sense for her to advocate her own lynch over CES + push the town to make a decision before deadline? No. That said you've played a better game thus far and our views are more in sync, so.

[Papa Zito]

bluh

UNVOTE: CES
VOTE: Hoopla

This is stupid.

[Papa Zito]

This game just stalled. I am 99% sure Hoopla is town, yet I think the only thing to do now is to hammer and see what happens tomorrow. I will hammer by the end of the day, that is in about 4/5 hours from now. Use that time well.

I'm lynching you tomorrow just FYI.

[Papa Zito]

@PZ: motivation?

1. You're scum.
2. Your predecessor was scum.
3. You're scum.

That's the motivation for any lynch really. But I know what you're fishing for let's look at that post as an example.

This game just stalled.

Empty repetition.

I am 99% sure Hoopla is town, yet I think the only thing to do now is to hammer and see what happens tomorrow.

Repetition + false conclusion.

I will hammer by the end of the day, that is in about 4/5 hours from now. Use that time well.

Call to action without taking action + contradiction/dissonance with the above.

Then you post this:

Of course not.But the 99% was a bit exagerated.

Quick backtracking.

I would rather, by far, lynch CES. There is that possibility, if you switch to him.

Three candidates, one is let's call very town, and one is let's call very very town, and one you find scummy, but you sit on your ass all day and don't push your candidate at all until it becomes obvious he can't be lynched.

[Papa Zito]

Would anyone for whom she is not their favourite be willing to switch so we could get a majority on one of the others? I will move to CES if necessary. I assume I could count on Copper and malpa. Anyone else?

I'd be willing to switch back to CES sure.

[Papa Zito]

Guys I have an important announcement.

There's a new Thundercats series and it starts airing next week

OMG

[Papa Zito]

I'm going to lynch Zito.

imitation flattery etc

[Papa Zito]

So first VOTE: malspacpasdf whatever.

Spoon, everything I'm reading from you is really dodgy. Give me one post with a case on me, because from what I can tell you're taking your D2 "gut/dark horse" and trying to justify it, which is no bueno.

Copper, please to be explaining your town read on malp in detail kthx.

Fenchurch, what are your conclusions from that vote chart thing?

[Papa Zito]

Sorry, missed it. I didn't switch because we were, what, 2 hours from deadline? and it didn't make sense to switch without everyone else bullrushing the thread agreeing to do it too.

If you've drawn no conclusions from your chart, how do you find it helpful?

[Papa Zito]

PZ, what do you think of Copper? You've hardly mentioned him.

I'm entirely underwhelmed by both of our hydras. I'm additionally suspicious of Copper for that moonbeams wagon analysis. However, dead malp is my priority.

[Papa Zito]

Lets do this:

vote Zito

. hardcore tunneling + lurking is fun, and scum.

I'm

lurking? Lol?

So you're going to give me all kinds of great reasons why malp is town right? Ok go.

[Papa Zito]

Those are the three at the top of my list but I'm not looking for a full team. I'll start looking for connections once we get a red flip.

I usually relie on replacing as a town-tell (sort of).

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Papa Zito]

I like how you kids drop votes on me and then go hide in V/LA. That's just awesome.

[Papa Zito]

So yet again I'm going to ask you what makes malp (or NS) town, since that's the basis of your entire 'argument'

[Papa Zito]

I'm working on the assumptions that townies don't votepark.

That's it?

Seriously?

So I've provided reasons why I want malp dead, and I've voted malp because I want him dead, and this makes me scum. hooookay then

[Papa Zito]

I'm waiting for PZ to answer.

I honestly don't care. I joined this game as a favor to Hoopla (I'm officially retired from Mafia games pending a couple of prior commitments) and now she's gone.

The fact that people can only make vague hand-waving statements like "he's lurking" (I'm rarely active on MS on the weekends; check my post history) or "his logic makes no sense" (no concrete examples provided) or "he's tunneling" (without addressing the reasoning behind that) should be clues to what my flip's gonna be.

But it doesn't matter. You guys will have a few more mislynches to go after this one.