TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[David Xanatos]

/confirm

[David Xanatos]

I'm not sure I follow the arguments against name claiming.. surely the roles would be random, and the characters simply providing some flavour as opposed to full briefs?

[David Xanatos]

I'm not entirely sure why it would be anti-town to claim, given that the roles are apparently randomly assigned to the names, or so it seems, so while there may not be an obvious pro-town motivation, I don't see any anti-town motivations either. It seems a moot point, flavour at best.

[David Xanatos]

Vote: Chevre

Of course he is, you find it hard to get completely on top of things due to your condition. Tsk tsk.

[David Xanatos]

Pity, my sarcasm tags appear to have imploded..

[David Xanatos]

Unvote: Chevre
Vote: ThreeIsFrench

First rule of society. Never trust the Frenchies.

[David Xanatos]

I'm not sure where the [REDACTED] came from.. was that a prior game title or was that a smarmy way of saying "I've read his previous games"?

[David Xanatos]

I'm curious, why Zinger? Is this Karma coming back to him?

[David Xanatos]

I'm not skimming. I'll clarify this with a question.

How long have you been a French sympathiser?

[David Xanatos]

Magna > What question? I don't see a question I didn't respond to.. but if you repeat it, I'll address it.

[David Xanatos]

MoI > Generally a question has a question mark.

I didn't see the need to put pressure on him. I didn't, and still don't, think Vezok's done anything warranting that pressure, and frankly I saw the French and my mind clouded.

[David Xanatos]

My vote was quite obviously a joke. The seemingly random pressure wagon on Vezok had potential to snowball, and frankly I'd rather not contribute to a lynch without information.

And on that note.

unvote: 3isFrench

[David Xanatos]

Vifam is dodgy is all hell in my book, but I'm waiting on her mounting even a vague defense before I drop a vote on her. Jily.. I honestly don't know. My gut says confused town, but my head says suspicious. My main thought is Vifam though..

[David Xanatos]

Why, when those questions which needed to be asked are being asked anyway? I have limited time at the computer at times, so I'd be unable to ask followup questions or respond to points without a moderate to significant delay. (In Mafia terms of course. 1-2 days real time at the longest, but given the pace of the thread is subject to fluctuation, it could be long forgotten by the time I respond.)

[David Xanatos]

I'm not sure how Hydras work on this site.. isn't it required for them to disclose who they are? :S

[David Xanatos]

See post #136.

I did respond to it, I clarified it with a question.

Mod: Is there a replacement in the wings for Jilynne?

Still don't know what to make of Jily.. direct contradictions within her posts, ends up coming off as either Town relying a little too much on meta, or slightly overconfident scum.. the replacing isn't really helping either, especially without any mention of a defense.. :/

Reading Vifam's ISO, I really don't like that the entire defense s/he's trying to field is "I agreed with the reads, but don't pay attention to that, pay attention to the other guy who agreed with people's reads, he must be scum for that!". Coupled with the silence since then, I find it a little more than suspicious.

Vote: Vifam

Please, explain why your "agreeing with reads" is a more valid defense than any of those you accuse of bandwagoning "agreeing with reads".

[David Xanatos]

And Chkballin, I'm curious. It must be a multiple thousand word post if it's taken you over three hours to write it...

[David Xanatos]

Admiral, I have voted for Vifam. I wanted to give her time to mount a more substantial and logical defense, but enough time has passed that it's even more suspicious.

[David Xanatos]

Who are the "heads" of each Hydra?

[David Xanatos]

But.. surely a game based on identifying tells and using them to determine who is "Scum" is undermined by a "person" who has the posting habits of multiple people, especially if those people are completely anonymous? :/

[David Xanatos]

Just a heads up, as of a couple hours from now, until Monday, I'll be V/LA.

Mod note:confirmed.

[David Xanatos]

What's wrong with now?

[David Xanatos]

Minor note before I actually go V/LA, was nothing to do with "town approval". As I stated, wanted to give her time to respond, she didn't, she still hasn't, ergo, vote.

[David Xanatos]

unvote Junpei

Just got back, it's nearly 1am, I shall catch up properly in the morning, but I just saw the Tracker claim.

See you all when the sun's out..

[David Xanatos]

I think he means #289.. he called it A, B, C etc though..

[David Xanatos]

Uuh, I just got back from a holiday, and I'm unpacking. Excuse me for not having dropped everything to read over the game in minute detail as soon as I arrived back home, and instead prioritising real life issues. I made one comment gleaned from quickly glancing at his ISO, so sue me. I still need to go back and read everything I missed.

[David Xanatos]

I'll actually respond to this point by point. Please note that at this time, this is the main part I've caught up to, yes, I am lagging behind, but I felt this should be addressed as soon as possible.

- He jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes... and FINALLY gets his serious face on when town starts to turn their eyes in his general direction. Are jokes scummy? Not in and of themselves, no, but when you're not scum hunting? It's fluff at best. An attempt to say "Hey guys, I'm here. Like me!" without giving anything credible or worthwhile information to the game as a whole.

Frankly, at that point, there was nothing I found particularly scummy about Vifam at that point. Not everyone instantly jumps into the game, and frankly I've always been one to take a slightly laid back role until I get a feel for the other players, you can check up my last game on that if you like. (Yes, I did claim too early then, but it worked out in the end.)

- Never in my days have I seen an RVS vote hop onto ANOTHER RVS vote. Something just doesn't feel right with me here. I don't see any town motivation for it.

There was a difference of

FOUR

minutes. That was simply me taking an RVS prod at Chev, seeing ThreeisFrench and thinking "Aha, the French!". Hardly "RVS vote hop onto ANOTHER RVS vote" given the timescale.

- Interacts with Magna semi-defensively. We all understand that questions end in question marks; what's the point in saying that? Obviously the point Magna made was worth responding to, otherwise MoI wouldn't have wanted David to respond. All that just to say that he holds his ground with the mass name claiming debacle? It just feels like he's making an excuse for not responding to Magna by way of continuing the nonsense joking with 3isFrench.

For a moment there you had me thinking I'd made a mistake, and the posts were by two seperate people.. can you please be consistent in the way you refer to a player? When I read that the first time I honestly thought I'd addressed MoI about a point someone else had made.

Regardless, to respond, at that point I was under the impression he was joking. It seemed to me at that point like a pure RVS wagon, and I didn't feel the need to move my vote to a wagon that I had no true basis in joining. ThreeisFrench had only me on him at that point, with what I felt was an obvious joke vote, whereas the Vezok wagon could catch wind without any real response from Vezok, and I'd rather not lynch without at least a cursory defense.

- this post has already been addressed for how scummy it is. "I mean, I want to give my scum partner some time to post an accurate defense. Y'know, so it's not

completely obvious

that I'm bussing you." That's exactly how that posts reads to me. Scum not wanting to look like obvscum, afraid his vote on Vifam won't be taken as genuine. "Waiting for a defense" is his exact wording... then why does he contradict himself here by saying that Vifam's defense is shotty? He tries to justify himself and I find it to be completely full of garbage. Tries it again before going V/LA. Why is he so concerned with this? Why not just say "I've answered this" and be done with it? Doesn't read as town motivated to me.

I've answered this. Happy? Because I have actually.

Vifam refused to give any defense beyond "I agreed with the reads", while accusing others of sheeping, and trying everything to make people "look over there", so to speak. Frankly, I didn't believe that he was using that as a defense, so I opted to give him/her time to post an actual defense. I believe 15 hours is more than sufficient time for someone who isn't V/LA or under an RL pressure to respond, so by that point I decided to put my vote down and assess the situation based on any defense forthcoming, as the current one just didn't hold water.

The third link you claim I'm trying to "justify" myself is after Admiral said essentially that I should have voted for Vifam. That was my simply pointing out I already had done. He then pointed out he follows a particular philosophy of always having your vote on somebody, which is where he and I apparently differ. I prefer being more conservative with my vote when I can be, due to having mostly played smaller games where a single vote can be the "foot in the door" for Scum to bandwagon someone.

And the fourth link you provided there, what's more town friendly? Three words, or giving the explanation in a nutshell before I went out the door?

If I'd simply said "I've answered this", I rather suspect you'd have used that as an excuse to claim I'm "lurking Scum" or similar.

You know, I can show you the photos from my weekend break if you like, before you claim the V/LA was a "Scum Gambit" or something. :3

- WAY TOO DEFENSIVE about a single vote. What's he worried about?

That was me being sarcastic about the fact you claimed to be "working on a wall" to "expect soon". You'll note I didn't mention your vote at all, not quite sure how that qualifies as "defensive".

- asks for something that's basically already been given. This tells me that he's not paying attention to the thread as much as he should. He CERTAINLY watches out for his own name, but head-claiming? That seems less important until he feels the need to fluff his ISO with something he may think is pro-town.

There's a Hydra that's completely unclaimed. I'm new to the "Hydra" concept, but as I stated to the mod, it seems to go against some of the game theory of "tells" et cetera. It also suggests to me that at least one of the two has something rather negative to hide, which arouses my interest to a degree.

Now.. with that post addressed, I plod onwards. I apologise that I am a little behind, but as I said, working onwards as I can.

[David Xanatos]

Vaguely caught up now.. and how exactly is that a null role? You're roleblocking random people, that will include Town, and the person you Roleblock for good might be Town too.. that's not neutral, that's bad for everyone.. :/

[David Xanatos]

Guys, maybe it's not a mod-killable offense?

We've had one claimed third party.. maybe there's more than one? I know it's not Jester, but perhaps some form of Bomb? A game I played a while back off-site had a guy acting like this.. he turned out to be a Random Bomb.. :/

[David Xanatos]

I'm not completely familiar with what happens if a Vig shoots a random bomb.. all I know is that it got lucky last time and hit a Scum Roleblocker. I don't think Jason would be that level of bastard-mod though..

It's a tough choice though.. I mean, if we have a Vig, especially a multi-shot Vig, is it worth the chance of it being a Bomb variety to take him out?

[David Xanatos]

I should clarify, I'm not completely familiar with what happens if a Bomb is shot in general..

[David Xanatos]

What happens on a Lynch though?

Our version (Board 8 on Gamefaqs, aka Contest board) detonated on a Lynch too.. but the MS wiki specifically says "night".. is that the standard version?

If it is, wouldn't a lynch be wiser, to prevent us losing a Vig?

[David Xanatos]

Have him self hammer?

There's a large hole in that thought process.. namely that a Bomb would never self hammer, would they?

Neither would any role I can think of.. but I suppose that's something for later consideration, if at all.

Not a fan of the Zinger lynch either, after thinking about it more..

Why would someone openly claim to be an anti-town, anti-mafia roleblocker, and expect not to get lynched/NKed? :/

[David Xanatos]

Point. It's 3am, I'm gonna grab some sleep, and come at it all with a fresh look in the morning.

Have a good one.

[David Xanatos]

Admiral > Personally, I consider neutral as meaning "not a threat to any party".. a party hostile to all groups is simply an enemy to all.

[David Xanatos]

Was that meant to be an unvote on me? Just noticed the double-vote and thought I'd point it out.

[David Xanatos]

Not just that element, in fact I've been trying to figure out exactly what a "Zang-Tell" is before I made myself look stupid..

So.. what is it?

[David Xanatos]

In addition, I'm inclined to disagree slightly with your opinion that a Hydra posting conflicting scum-reads is inherently a scummy thing. As you say, disagreements could happen behind the scenes, but though they are one slot, they're surely better posting their own opinions too?

[David Xanatos]

Junpei, why would a third party claim keep potential SKs off you?

I'm not quite following that logic.. :/

[David Xanatos]

Junpei > Granted, I see the reasoning now. Thanks for clarifying.

[David Xanatos]

I disagree with you Andrew. Chkballin, though a little abrasive, has been actively scumhunting and posting observations, I don't see him as fence sitting much personally, or sheeping, for that matter.

In addition, I have no idea where your opinion on Zinger is going, because he's claimed self aligned JK with a perma-roleblock element, then Doc, then back to the JK again, and now Town JK? That just screams "Dodgy as all hell" to me. He's either a third party, roleblocking random people and possibly someone for good (Do we want to take the risk that it'll be a Town Cop or Doc that's perma-blocked? The odds aren't in our favour I feel.. assuming it's a true claim.), a rather poor Town, who'll only cause confusion and strife, or a Scum trying a gambit. I personally feel that the way he's acting warrants a lynch.

VOTE: Zinger

[David Xanatos]

Off to bed. See you all in the morning.

Mod: Can we have a votecount please?

[David Xanatos]

Welcome Crappy. Strange name.. xD

[David Xanatos]

MoI, sorry to point it out again, but you did it again. You used the Vote tag instead of Unvote.. thought I should point it out.

And also, are you willing to tell us the names of the people who've neighbourized you? I'm inclined to agree that both aren't likely to be town, so by having the two names we can analyse who's more likely to be non-town..

[David Xanatos]

Can someone give me a quick overview of what a Neighbourizer is by the way? I can take a rough guess, but I don't see it on the wiki..

[David Xanatos]

The only thing I see is "Friendly Neighbour", and that says mod-confirmed Town, but that's obviously not what MoI means or we wouldn't be having this conversation..

[David Xanatos]

Ah, strike that. Found it under "Vi's Unique Roles". Interesting.. although what I find strange is that they haven't stepped forward to say who they are, confirm themselves as Town.. assuming it's single-shot that is.

Preview Edit: Aye, found it just afterwards.. does the Neighbourhood become a third faction, or is it purely like the Wiki says, a mason-group?

[David Xanatos]

What flavour/mechanics did they give you for it? Even if you don't name them, the differences might hint towards the non-town, assuming they aren't both Town..

[David Xanatos]

Might I ask how so? I believe it's already been stated that Scum neighbourisers are common (I think it was Silver who said it?) so if one of the two is already high on people's suspect lists, it may lend even more weight to a lynch.

You'll also note I asked later for simply the details he was given, to see if we can spot any inconsistencies that might imply changed/hidden details.

[David Xanatos]

I know this isn't addressed to me but I feel I should post this anyway.. Junpei, what do you think about the fact that Izak makes a comment about Jesters, and then proceeds to insult you for it? I know you mentioned it, but to my eyes, it seems very defensive and almost a case of.. "Oh of

course

I was joking.. (Oh please god let people not look into this..)"

And as a suppliment, "Zinger says it all", when all Zinger really gave was a rather WIFOMy comment about you being mafia and "jumping for joy", and another minor handwave about perhaps the person he'd perma-roleblock being you.. it just doesn't sit right with me that there's such an open "ME TOO!" post there.. :/

[David Xanatos]

In the signup topic it was stated there would be no Jester or Governor, but as a replacement it was unlikely you would have known/remembered that.. I feel Pinky called it when he made his "Uninformed majority" snipe at Izak.. it does seem to have had a marked effect before his attack on you for the same thing..

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3162322

But for Izak.. when I looked over his ISO myself, it just seemed rather disjointed, there're a few things he's blatantly backtracked on, such as voting Vifam for "sticking out like a sore thumb", without expanding on his thoughts/opinions.. unvoting to vote for Meram at a later date, still without expressing his thoughts on Vifam, unvoting Meram claiming there was "bigger stuff" and FoSing you in the same post, without an indication beyond, as I mentioned "Zinger says it all", which, if we take that as true, he essentially FoSed you for excessively dodgy reasons..

Oh, and as Pinky pointed out 300 posts ago, he claimed to still be "struggling to keep up", despite there being 3 days for him to catch up, re-read anything he felt needed focus, and continue as normal.. he tries to handwave it as "not put them into a list", but it's not just that, beyond his votes I see no solid opinions expressed that aren't along the lines of "YEAH! I AGREE WITH (Person)".. he goes off on a minor rant against Zinger but frankly I don't see any content there..

So, Izak, I'd rather like you to give us your view of the field right now. I won't even ask for a complete list.. how about just your opinions on the top four or five people on your radar right now, and why you're finding them suspect. It would help, and the "struggling to keep up" excuse can only fly so long before the question has to be asked, are you even trying?

[David Xanatos]

Might I ask for a more detailed explanation of why you are voting for Vifam then?

(Looking through your ISO, you or the other head never unvoted, so I believe that means the Marco and Pine votes are null?)

[David Xanatos]

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on), has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

[David Xanatos]

Hit post too early, meant to hit Preview so I could get onto the more detailed posting screen..

His play in general has been based entirely around deception until this point, no matter what his alignment turns out to be.. I'm inclined to cite "The Boy who cried Wolf" to be honest.. he claims neutral JK, then Town Doc, then Neutral JK again, and now Town JK.. at this point, frankly I don't see why we should believe the claim anymore..

In addition, even before he claimed "self" he even responded to an inquiry as to why he was holding his opinions back with "And if I'm not Town?"

I won't even touch on the "elitist" tirade, as I've not been around long enough to have any serious views on it, but it's a rather glaring red rag to a bull.. so to speak.. insulting an entire community isn't exactly going to help the game.

[David Xanatos]

Personally, I don't believe that this is the sort of thing Scum/third party would never do.. especially newbie Scum, thinking they can avoid a lynch for the rest of the game and simultaniously explain the lack of nightkills on them.. I don't believe that anyone would honestly miss the glaring holes in logic around the fact that a claimed jailkeeper is inherently bad for both sides (Town as it means Scum know a PR, and Scum as there's either someone running interference, or a target that's being watched all the time.. I played JK last game, and knowing that my ability blocked the NK meant I would be able to target those I was suspicious of, and if the kill went through, we had a confirmed Townie), especially a self aligned one.. (No loyalty to Town, no reason to declare confirmed Townies, for fear of angering Scum, no loyalty to Scum, and can interfere with the NK), and so if he was by some miracle 3rd party/town, Scum would gib him night one regardless. It's that thought that's making me very cautious about a potential Vig on him, as I have in the back of my mind something like bomb, or another role that'll do something negative if they're visited at night..

At the very least, he provides a major distraction for Town, and I believe we will learn more from him flipping than we'll get if he glides through.

And for the record, my top three right now are Zinger, Izak and Silver, Zinger for reasons I've outlined, Izak for reasons I've outlined, and Silver because of the apparent feud between heads, it seems a little staged, crass as that may sound. MoI put it rather squarely in a nutshell in post #687.

NB: Silver is somewhat lower than the first two though..

I was incredibly suspicious of the Vifam slot until the replacement.. Junpei seems rather Town to me, as does Magna. I'm leaning Town on Admiral too, but I'm somewhat baffled by his vote on Junpei.. I can understand residual suspicion from Vifam, but is there anything in particular from Junpei you've found scummy?

I'm still mostly null on others.. but I felt I should put down my thoughts, since I'm asking others to clarify theirs.

[David Xanatos]

And on that note, I'm going to grab some sleep. Have a good one everyone.

[David Xanatos]

It could be a cover for a standard Roleblocker, all it would require is Scum not targetting that person with any kills that night, and if the person is vigged, claiming assassin shot or similar. Otherwise it would explain why someone was Roleblocked..

That's a fairly sizable could though.. I'm basically thinking out loud here.

[David Xanatos]

As I said, basically thinking out loud. I've been criticised in the past for essentially holding back and keeping anything short of solid reads to myself, so I'm trying to be a little more open.. if at times that makes me sound like I'm putting out obvious/unlikely thoughts, so be it.. it's what runs through my head.

[David Xanatos]

MoI, I'm not sure if you're just skimming or if you're actively trying to misrepresent me, but you'll note that TWO POSTS after I posted that, I also posted, this,

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3265912

And the first words of that post.. "Hit post too early, meant to hit Preview so I could get onto the more detailed posting screen.."

Hell, two posts after THAT I even expanded on it further.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 3#p3266033

So please, stop trying to make out as though my sole reasoning was "lulz revealed role".

[David Xanatos]

This may be slightly redundant, but any chance of another vote count?

[David Xanatos]

Rodion > Bit of idiocy on my part there I'm afraid. I was JK in a two-scum player game in which the first died night one.. so any unblocked kill ended up confirming someone. Didn't quite think about the mechanics of it when not applied to that.. I feel a bit prattish now. >_<

And I note that MoI still hasn't responded to my reply, and now ThAdmiral is using his post to justify a vote on me.. once again, skimming or an actual attempt at misrepresentation?

Zinger 10 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, 3isFrench, Izak, Pappum,Cherve, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan
Silverdrummer 5 - Slate, Oversoul, Nero, Meran, MoI
DavidX 4 - CHKBallin,PeregrineV, Rodion, ThAdmiral
Izak 3 - ZeL1nk, Pinky
Pine 1 - Silver
Chkballin 1 - Andrew

[David Xanatos]

Suppliment towards Rodion > And also, in my defense, it was 4:30am. Mental faculties not exactly firing on all pistons at that point.

[David Xanatos]

@Leon (Post #820) - Don't you find it a little.. ironic that you're calling a Hydra out on being semi-inactive?

Meran - "Anyway, since you guys are not interested in killing off non-posters" - Might sound a little nitpicky, but why use that phrase? Are you serious advocating the lynch of essentially a random for being less active?

[David Xanatos]

Also..

"hm...well Chevre and Vollkan are verbose enough to not ignore me calling them scummy, so I shouldn't bother there."

There are two ways I can see this being meant.. care to point me to which way you meant it? Once again it's a nitpick but it's something that did flag up to me..

[David Xanatos]

Fair enough. I think I grasp the expression, but I'll leave it there.. thanks for clearing that up. I was semi-suspicious of you but after clarifying, I'm much less so.

You believe Zel1nk's Vig claim then?

[David Xanatos]

You quoted post 742 in post 803, completely ignoring the fact I admitted in post 744 that I had hit "submit" instead of "preview". Post 744 and, by extension, 746, were direct responses to Zel1nk. How exactly you can quote post 742 in relation to post 694 is beyond me, given that in 741, Zel1nk says, and I quote, "If you're going to vote for Zinger, tell me which part of this line of thinking you disagree with and why." That is what 742 and 744 were in regards to. 746 was in regards to Zel1nk's response, post 745.

In addition, my first response was at 7:45PM on Thursday, you posted twice in another topic at 2:01am and 4:09am, in addition to 4 further posts elsewhere over the course of the afternoon. If that's you "not personally posting", I suggest you contact Mith about your account being compromised.

And to respond to the point you're now bringing up, more or less out of the blue, (See below as to why this is out of the blue), at that point, and frankly, even now, I still believe the chance of two town neighbourizers is slim. Therefore, if we have TWO people who have done it, it follows one of them is likely to be NON TOWN. It therefore follows we should analyse them to determine WHICH is the more viable lynch/vig candidate, and go for them. (Indeed, you even expressed your reasoning for telling Town you were approached by two of them in #808, "2. I think the chances that both are Town is VERY, VERY limited. Thus why I specifically outed the information before my expected, standard N1 demise."

Now.. to address "my and Meran's observations", this is what you had to say on the matter at the time:

"2. Not at this stage. On the off chance that one of them isn't Mafia scum (aka Third Party or the unlikely possibility both are Town) then I'm not directly handing over either identity."

At which point, I took a step back, and said the following - "What flavour/mechanics did they give you for it? Even if you don't name them, the differences might hint towards the non-town, assuming they aren't both Town.."

Now.. try to keep up here. I asked you for an IMPERSONAL description of what each said the role did and the limits thereof. In other words, "Person A said this, Person B said this.". From that, we'd have a basic grounding, without names, to say "Well, X, Y and Z in Person B's post look out of place.." (Psst, I said this in post #711 by the way)

And in addition, looking through both your and Meran's ISOs, at no point did you ask me to defend or expand upon my questions in 694.

[David Xanatos]

You didn't bother reading my last post then it seems.

I'll break it down for you. And I'll try to avoid words bigger than about eight letters.

YOU

quoted my post number 742 in your post 803.

The relevant section of your post there is:

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on)has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

So the best solution you can come up with as punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole (if he is Town) is to lynch that player?

That’s scumtastic reasoning David.

Now.. quite apart from the fact that it was a mistake when I clicked "Submit" instead of "preview" while I was writing a response to 741, a post by Zel1nk, and to be more specific, this section of the post

If you're going to vote for Zinger, tell me which part of this line of thinking you disagree with and why. If you're just going to repeat "he claimed Third Party" over and over, ad nauseum, then this discussion goes nowhere. I also don't want to hear any more about how "stupid" it was for him to do; it was stupid to do as

any alignment

, and being stupid isn't a tell of any sort.

i.e, nothing at all to do with what you're trying to link it to, namely my post 694 in which, right after you revealed the fact you had recieved messages from two players, I politely asked about who they were. As I explained in my post before this one, this is because, and you share this view (As expressed in 808), the odds of there being two town of that role are slim to none.

Now, it follows that if the chance of a role being repeated is very low, one of them is third party or scum. There are two people. That's a very narrow spectrum. Much narrower than 27 people. When you voiced doubts about naming them, I then asked for simply the stories they gave you, so we might analyse them and find out which of them seems less consistent.

In doing so, you completely ignore my post immediately after it, in 744 which was meant to inform why the prior post was so short, and fill out to answer the question posed by Zel1nk.

And to service your retort regarding times, BST, move the small hand forward five hours, my times match up. Between my initial post and my follow-up, you had posted twice in another topic, between my follow-up and your actual reply, you had posted a further

four

times. Might I ask where you are accusing me of "fabricating" posts? Because I count six. Once again, two between my initial post and my own follow up, and four more times before you finally responded.

[David Xanatos]

Junpei, apologies for this. But in the exchange between myself and MoI, am I missing something glaring? Because it seems like I'm addressing the points he's pointing to, and he's then trying to claim he was meaning a completely seperate set of points, on a completely different page, to a completely seperate person.

[David Xanatos]

Vezok, though I agree with you for the most part, my mind is drawn to a game I played in which a VT claimed "Bard", he claimed it allowed him to give one person a double-action for the night, unless it was a one-shot power. Mafia shot him N1, when their secondary target, before he claimed Bard, later turned out to be the Town Cop. It can work rather well at times..

But, as I said, I agree that it's usually a bad idea.

[David Xanatos]

Are you seriously suggesting that we should be expecting someone to claim Scum when pressured to claim?

Here's a little thought for you sparky,

everyone put under pressure D1 is going to claim a PR

.

And to cite the lack of counterclaims is rather amusing, given that

you

are the one who is suppressing the names of those directly involved in a scenario like that.

I find myself more inclined to wonder if you're trying a gambit.. especially given your comment expressing the possibility of a multi-scum game.. this could simply be your day one attempt to make your discussion with the "others" legitimate. It was already flagged up earlier in the thread, and I find it incredibly suspicious that you would withhold such valuable information from Town, despite openly saying you expected to be killed Night One..

[David Xanatos]

Junpei > I did. Although frankly, here's another vein of this.

MoI > Why did you tell us about the two neighbourisers if you had no intention of giving us any details? All non-Town factions now have more information thanks to you, while Town is unable to do anything with the same information.

[David Xanatos]

I can honestly say that I've never been in a game in which a VT claim upon pressure was taken seriously. In fact, I'd say it'd be more likely to get lynched than a third party neutral like psychiatrist, purely because Town VT is something that, if claimed as Scum and taken at face value, simply lets the player have almost a free ride for the rest of the game, barring an investigation.

[David Xanatos]

Well, Junpei, I hope you turn out a better detective than your namesake at least.

[David Xanatos]

Junpei > Heh, I actually thought you were named after Junpei from Persona 3.. a character I rather liked.

Guess not though. xD

*feels silly*

[David Xanatos]

Isn't Pine replacing out?

How can someone with literally 2 posts be your #1 suspect? :S

[David Xanatos]

Occams razor? Maybe he's just forgotten about the game completely..

[David Xanatos]

To put it in a nutshell, the simplest explanations are usually the correct ones.

[David Xanatos]

Well, it's more than feasible he simply saw the amount of catch-up and got cold feet. It won't matter much anyway when he's replaced, no?

[David Xanatos]

You say yourself though, he had no action. That's simply apathy, if he was active-lurking, he wouldn't be getting force-replaced..

[David Xanatos]

I was wondering how you'd answer that.

I was expecting something a little heavier on the sarcasm.. something amusing. Pity..

And I have no idea why Chevre asked that. That was possibly the one question he could have asked that absolutely everyone in the topic could have called the answer on.

[David Xanatos]

Updated list iss
Pine - 1st
Marco - 2nd
Meran - Tied for 2nds
magna -4th... or 5th... well last for the moment.
goomba - 3rd


However the star of the show for the moment is Nero

His post 894

I really dislike how scummy Silvers bandwagon has no momentum.

Whom I can only believe to actually have meant I really dislike how , Scummy Silver's, bandwagon has no momentum.

It's such a productive post that he wins my vote for the moment since a Pine lynch doesn't appear to be happening yet...

VOTE: Nero Cain

But.. you very specifically rank Pine as 1st, Marco and Meran tied for 2nd, Goomba as third, Magna as fourth/fifth.. and then mention Nero, almost as an afterthought, but vote him.. :/

[David Xanatos]

If he's the "star of the show", why did you rank Pine as #1, and specifically mark Marco and Meran as tied for #2?

Will respond in the morning to your answer, if needed, going to bed for now.

[David Xanatos]

Going back to bed in a moment (damn postman..) but will respond to this before I do.

Rodion > Bit of idiocy on my part there I'm afraid. I was JK in a two-scum player game in which the first died night one.. so any unblocked kill ended up confirming someone. Didn't quite think about the mechanics of it when not applied to that.. I feel a bit prattish now. >_<

And I note that MoI still hasn't responded to my reply, and now ThAdmiral is using his post to justify a vote on me.. once again, skimming or an actual attempt at misrepresentation?

Zinger 10 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, 3isFrench, Izak, Pappum,Cherve, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan
Silverdrummer 5 - Slate, Oversoul, Nero, Meran, MoI
DavidX 4 - CHKBallin,PeregrineV, Rodion, ThAdmiral
Izak 3 - ZeL1nk, Pinky
Pine 1 - Silver
Chkballin 1 - Andrew

DX+5

THad's point was a reiteration of MOI's point that your reasoning for lynching Zinger appeared to be not that he was prob-scum but that he was "prob-town who needs to be taught a lesson". How does this respond to that? (and the 4.30am excuse in your next post doesn't cut it)

I'm under the impression here you didn't bother reading either. Firstly, that post was mostly a response to Rodion. As was my next post with the "4.30am excuse" as you put it.

That was post #742. I explained in post #744 I clicked "submit" too soon instead of "preview". See post #744, and in a very similar vein, #746 for this. I've already given my full reasoning. To reiterate, it's nothing to do with "prob town that needs lesson", it's "dodgy as hell, now claims town, but has changed claim 4 times. I see no reason to believe his latest face-saving claim either."

Now.. try to keep up here. I asked you for an IMPERSONAL description of what each said the role did and the limits thereof. In other words, "Person A said this, Person B said this.". From that, we'd have a basic grounding, without names, to say "Well, X, Y and Z in Person B's post look out of place.." (Psst, I said this in post #711 by the way)

DX+5

Huh?

(as I see MOI has already noted) You specifically asked for their names in 694. Which is about as PERSONAL as you can get.

Way to mis-quote. Let's add in the lines before, shall we?

Now.. try to keep up here. I asked you for an IMPERSONAL description of what each said the role did and the limits thereof. In other words, "Person A said this, Person B said this.". From that, we'd have a basic grounding, without names, to say "Well, X, Y and Z in Person B's post look out of place.." (Psst, I said this in post #711 by the way)

The full quote would be:

Now.. to address "my and Meran's observations", this is what you had to say on the matter at the time:

"2. Not at this stage. On the off chance that one of them isn't Mafia scum (aka Third Party or the unlikely possibility both are Town) then I'm not directly handing over either identity."

At which point, I took a step back, and said the following - "What flavour/mechanics did they give you for it? Even if you don't name them, the differences might hint towards the non-town, assuming they aren't both Town.."

Now.. try to keep up here. I asked you for an IMPERSONAL description of what each said the role did and the limits thereof. In other words, "Person A said this, Person B said this.". From that, we'd have a basic grounding, without names, to say "Well, X, Y and Z in Person B's post look out of place.." (Psst, I said this in post #711 by the way)

In other words, you just cut out a pretty damn key part of narrative, namely

"At which point, I took a step back, and said the following"

That is the IMPERSONAL description I refer to. MoI gave a reason for not wanting to name, and I took it at face value, so I then asked for some details that would NOT implicate anyone, but that Town could work with MoI on, to determine which, if any, looks forged/edited.

[David Xanatos]

Zel1nk, in the absence of.. well, it appears pretty much everyone advocating my lynch, can you tell me exactly what it is that's apparently so "scummy" about me that I haven't addressed?

At this point I frankly feel like I'm hitting my head off a brick wall. Misquoting and ignoring context seems abound..

[David Xanatos]

Zel1nk > Actually, I asked for the identities once. I then asked for the information THEY gave HIM. That gives town at least something to work with if something doesn't add up...

And I actually have a notepad document of thoughts.. sec while I load it up.

[David Xanatos]

This is the latest one.

Just something I've been writing up as time passes.. slightly disjointed but they're my thoughts on each person. Seems to be tunnelling rather heavily on chkballin, and I'm not quite sure why..

Andrew > You've been rather inactive.. I don't see any solid reads from him, promised a post and hasn't yet delivered. Would like to see more.. have him tell us his current reads.

Chevre > Though you have been prodding around, and seem to be gathering information, I'd like to know what you're picking up. You seem fairly on-the-ball, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the playing field.

chkballin > Still waiting on the promised second post, but tunnelling on me a little. I'll respond to the post when it comes, but the posts from Ballin in particular draw my eye as being very Townie. Regardless of his current situation with me, I'm inclined to label him Town. Not sure how it'll play out, but it's a mixture of gut and Ballin.

Easjo > Appears to have buggered off.

Izak > Has gone dark since Wednesday, when he tried to handwave himself as making an "obvious joke" about Jesters while attacking Junpei. Scummy as hell, would probably have been tempered if he had been around since then.. very dodgy at the moment though. Doesn't help that I see a lot of words and little to no stances actually taken, beyond his stance on Zinger, and a minor note about Chevre not being Scummy. Really want to see his list of Scum reads...

Jason > SCUM! >.>

Junpei > Came into the game at a disadvantage, has since contributed massively to the Town efforts, claimed Tracker.. I'd put money on him being Town frankly. Eloquent and intelligent, which aids massively when he's explaining his thoughts. Also entertaining.

Killerjester > Makes some very good points.. especially on Izak, calls Leonshade on his fence-sitting and counter-intuitive behaviour. Leaning Town, but I confess I haven't really paid much attention to Killerjester so far, and I lack the time to do an in-depth analysis right now.

Leonshade > Another one I haven't been paying particular attention to lately, but I did have some notes from earlier that simply read "lots of words, little content". Another one I'll need to do a detailed analysis of.

MoI > Leant Town on him to begin with, but his persistent tunneling and misquoting of my posts, and attempting to twist the context of said posts has dragged me back to neutral on him. Loathe to go into further detail while I await further response, but he's V/LA, so that's on the back-burner for now.

Marco > Balanced viewpoint to the point of fence-sitting, but admits to a little OMGUSing.. was prodded I believe, would love to see his thoughts after he's caught up.

Meran > Very protective of Zinger, accepts Zel1nk's claim without any hesitation whatsoever.. appears quite dodgy in that respect, but appears to be gather a decent whack of information. His reads are a little hard to follow at times, but for the most part appears sound. Inclined to lean town for now.

Nero > Hard to understand at times, quite tunnelley on Silver, but did draw my attention to the fact Silver actually justified his Vifam vote as "because it was a viable lynch".. he gets a little Town credit for that, but I'm still mostly neutral.

Oversoul > Inactive with a wall.. considering replacing out, can't really say one way or the other, but I would like his reads before he goes, if he chooses to.

Pappums > Makes a decent Zinger case, admittedly backed by Meta.. I don't buy the "survival = scum" vibe he seems to give out though. Would quite like an expanded set of reads from him.

Peregrine > Not really much to go on.. makes a few good points, but overall hasn't really been around enough for me to get a read on.

Pine > Simply hasn't been here.. admits he's only here not to tarnish his record.. frankly I can't even give a vague comment, as he literally has not said one word about the actual state of the game..

Pinky > Has a rather annoying habit of using spoiler tags, but beyond that, gives me a Town vibe.

Rodion > Leaning Town, but for the most part haven't been following him much. What I have noted in my observations is that he's intelligent and mostly neutral, willing to give both sides a fair hearing, which can only really be a benefit. Wouldn't mind seeing his list of scum-reads personally.

Silver > Massive OMGUS vote on Nero, despite apparently not even having him in his top 5 Scum reads.. dodgy. Will be keeping an eye on.

ThAdmiral > Reading mostly Town, but in honesty don't like the way he picked up MoI's misquoted post and ran with it without bothering to check it in the slightest.. waiting on him to respond though, so not wanting to jump to conclusions.

ThreeisFrench > Not sure what to make of this.. is active lurking, short posts, little content, but not sure if that's a buildup to a wall or just trying to float under the radar..

Vezok > Admits to buddying to the "best" player in games, appears to have rather strange reasoning (Lurker A is town because he lurked before, Lurker B is scum because he didn't).. very, very short posts, and I honestly don't recall ever seen reads from him..

Vollkan > Reads as Town to me, but tunnels rather heavily on Zinger.. I can see the logic and reasoning behind it, but I get the impression he may be getting a little blinkered. This is another one who I'd love to see his current reads.

Zel1nk > I cannot get my head around the Vig claim so soon.. intelligent and has made some rather compelling points, but the Vig claim is sitting rather unevenly in the back of my mind.. would really like to know why he claimed so soon..

Zinger > Already voiced my opinions on him.. could call him everything under the sun but I'm going to take a cooling off period, spend some time looking at those I haven't analysed properly yet. I still have about 70-75% confidence in him being either hostile third party or Scum though..

[David Xanatos]

Andrew > You've been rather inactive.. I don't see any solid reads from him, promised a post and hasn't yet delivered. Would like to see more.. have him tell us his current reads. Seems to be tunnelling rather heavily on chkballin, and I'm not quite sure why..

Had an error moving it across. Evidently dragged that last sentence in Andrew's section to the opening statement there. >_<

[David Xanatos]

Hoppster > Not sure what Hydra you're part of so I'll just address you by name instead of guessing.

1) Hostile third party, or Scum. And what I said wasn't "later", it was the same post, as I explained, I hit "post" instead of "preview".

2) Lying, and general attitude. I'm not going to touch the Meta that others claim to have with him.. that's their reasoning, I personally view the deception and subsequent flailing as very suspect.

Zinger > Uuh, Pinky didn't vote Izak. He very specifically avoided voting Izak because he's V/LA and therefore not here to defend himself, so he went for his other main suspect, you. Or at least that's how I'm picking it up.

[David Xanatos]

Also, not usually a prat like this, but you started it. Zinger, confirmable is a word. Adjective. Able to be confirmed.

[David Xanatos]

Zel1nk asked for my reads, I just copied/pasted from the notepad document I take notes in.

So what are these "solid reads"?

And can you explain your stance of each of those suspects?

[David Xanatos]

I actually think Zinger's response to Pinky condemns him even more. He's obviously skimming at best.. this from someone claiming to want to help Town now.. :/

[David Xanatos]

Izak is V/LA, and was long before you were.

And indeed, the very fact you're here proves you aren't V/LA.

V/LA - MOI (weekend), Mera (back 29th) Izak (Back 31st)

[David Xanatos]

To address Vollkan's question quickly before breakfast..

Tell me, did you ever actually retract your call for a nameclaim?

No, I did not, because for me, the nameclaim thing was basically a way of breaking the ice. I don't believe the names have any grounding in the actual roles (Given that it'd mean that bad guys would be lynched immediately, and I don't think Jason would do that), and therefore it wouldn't have hurt the Town. As I said, it may not have particularly helped, but I felt it might have added another element to RVS, discussion based on the names et cetera. It's a theme game, a little in-character RVSing might have been entertaining.

Now.. om nom nom time methinks. But a note before I do.

Silver, a numbered list tends to be ordered. And you still haven't provided reasoning behind the reads.

PEdit: Vollkan, frankly, it's not the list itself, it's the lack of clarification behind it. The fact his apparent "tied for #1" is someone with.. 2 posts? 3 posts? Doesn't exactly help.. :/

[David Xanatos]

That actually makes it worse. He's then essentially saying "I'm voting for this person because I don't like them. There is no evidence on them but I want them lynched simply because I don't like them."

Surely by this point, there's more than enough evidence on more than a few people that a meta-grudge should have been sidelined long ago in favour of actually scumhunting?

[David Xanatos]

By the way. Any response my my reply RE: the nameclaim thing, or have I clarified it satisfactorily?

[David Xanatos]

Should read "Any response to my reply RE:...", brain melted for a moment there.

[David Xanatos]

Since everyone seems to be calling this role-fishing, here's a definitive response.

The only reason I asked for the names is because the chance of them both being town is close to nil, and MoI simply holding the names of two people, of whom one of which is most likely either third party or Scum, appears to me to go rather against the point of scumhunting. Ignoring such a potential lead seemed, and frankly still seems, idiotic. That is also the reason I asked for the details they gave him, because having any information is good, and if there are inconsistencies in a message, it's more likely to be caught when multiple people see it.

Hiding information, in my eyes, is anti-town, unless it's something along the lines of "I am a cop. I have a scum-read on someone, but if I reveal it now, I'll be roleblocked for the rest of the game, so I'll take the risk and wait to see if I can catch another before outing myself".

[David Xanatos]

Leon > Because he's V/LA and I want to give him a chance to publish more information, even just the details that he was given.

[David Xanatos]

Rodion > I don't mean a full list if you don't have one, just those you suspect with a little summary of why really, just to give an insight.

I just posted my entire set of notes >.>

[David Xanatos]

I didn't mention a word about Vifam, he's not the only person that was under the proverbial 'microscope'... so your response here is more or less void. The fact that you prefer a "laid back role" until town starts to light a fire under your ass isn't much of a defense either, much less a very town-motivated one.

Apologies, Vezok. Not Vifam, got them mixed up there. Regardless, one of the posts you linked was a direct response to Killerjester asking why I wasn't on an RVS wagon after being "specifically invited". I find it rather ironic actually that you claim it's bad that I changed my RVS vote, and yet at the same time, make it out as though my declining to move my RVS vote onto a stronger RVS wagon is somehow scummy too.

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI, when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily.. therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

Wow... so you

agree

that they're both random votes yet, by some force, you

disagree

that it's an RVS vote hopping onto another RVS vote? The fact that it's four minutes apart proves that it's two RVS votes back-to-back. You're bass ackwards here.

The way you phrase it is as though I'm hopping from an RVS vote onto a wagon for no reason, frankly I read that as trying to imply I'm sheeping, when little could be further from the truth.

Semantics. I'll type how I want, it's not my fault if you have a problem keeping up. You obviously fixed your own problem; what was the point in pointing this out? Have you ever heard of IIoA? This is a small example of it right here.

Because not everyone's a native english speaker, and frankly I wanted to point it out as a minor aside on the offchance that you were non-native, as it seemed to be to imply, as I said, that I was hopping onto an RVS wagon. In addition, the very fact it was four minutes shows that there was no intent behind either vote than simply poking them.

You're completely off base here. Whether you thought the Vezok wagon was warranted or not, you're play here is still "hurr hurr I'm hilarious" instead of doing some actual scum-hunting until the town, again, lights that fire under your ass. This is not town-motivated play; therefore, I still don't think you're town.

Are you trying to imply that simply hopping onto an RVS wagon is "scumhunting"? That's not scumhunting, that's sheeping. Blatant sheeping at that. You appear to essentially be saying that it's better to follow the pack without reason than observe the field.

It's funny how you're doing the exact same thing here.

Care to define how exactly? I'm defending points as they're raised, Vifam simply tried to misdirect.

And now you're just repeating yourself as if it's reiterating some sort of point. It isn't. You're simply justifying my original point in saying that you were stalling so it didn't look so much like a bandwagon vote as much as it is. What are your current thoughts on Vezok? I don't want a re-quoted read, I want what you feel at this exact moment. Go.

You're saying that jumping on a wagon without giving someone time to make their case is "stalling"? I call bullshit on that, quite frankly. When it became apparent that Vifam wasn't going to even attempt to defend herself, I voted, when Junpei took over and claimed, I backed off, believing his claim. Since then, Junpei in my eyes has been a massive asset to the town, offsetting all residual doubt I had on the slot based on Vifam. If Vifam had bothered defending herself, my vote may never have been on her in the first place.

And my thoughts on Vezok? I already gave some of my thoughts on him/her barely a couple of pages ago. If you want it in a nutshell, scummy as hell. Openly admits to buddying, doesn't care if s/he's buddying to scum in doing so, makes short, low to no content posts and tunnels rather heavily, also appears to be making rather harsh defenses for Meran, but I'm not sure what to make of that.

The last two sentences were chopped because, again, you like to talk and talk until the original point is diluted. Thanks. My point isn't about Admiral, it's about the fact that you're trying to justify your vote on Vezok (which you're still doing here, you're just using different words - neat scum tactic) and trying to look as town as possible when doing it. It's not convincing and, most of all,

still

not town-motivated.

How exactly is defending points on which I'm challenged "not town-motivated"? Is your idea of Town some strange opinionless person, willing to happily follow whatever opinion you happen to have at the time? Are you expecting my reasons for voting to change on a minute by minute basis? That's not logic, that's borderline multiple-personalities. I felt the case was strong enough to warrant a vote, so I voted. If you'd rather I told you to fuck off by way of response, I'd be happy to, but frankly I feel sharing motivations and mindsets helps Town to understand one another and clears up and miscommunication.

Does anyone think David is acting in a town-motivated manner here?

Wow... you're quite the paranoid player. If you had said "I've answered this" like I was saying, I think my original point would be pretty moot wouldn't it?

Your obvious paranoia doesn't sit well with me at all. I understand it may seem as if you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but that's not the case here, nor have I attacked every single thing you've done. I'm only placing a target on the things I find suspect. This over-defensive behavior just makes me think that I'm right.

Firstly, it's only paranoia if they're not actually after you, and the extent of tunneling shown by you rather proves that you are. Secondly, short, snapping responses don't help Town. It engenders feelings of hostility and doesn't allow any insight into the reasons behind something. Thirdly, over-defensive? I'm responding to points as they're raised. If I reiterate points, it's because someone's asking something I've answered already, and I could either link them to the post, which I believe they'd ignore anyway, or I can spell it out for them. Which would you prefer, number-soup or a few extra lines to read?

And herein lies my main issue with your starting play. Now you get the magical excuse of "oh, I was joking" every single time you're questioned or under fire. That's an excuse, your post in question seemed very serious and, therefore, defensive as hell.

You'll find that sarcasm =/= defensive. It was me poking fun at the fact that you promised a wall, and then went completely silent. It took you two days to post the damn thing. Do you know how dodgy it looks for someone to proclaim they're working on a wall, a day later apologise that it's late, promise it within 12 hours, miss /that/ deadline, and only post it on the third day? Frankly, to me that looks like someone trying to

look

busy.

Oh, and to address the "defensive" accusation further, would you rather we go down the rhetoric route, essentially a "who can scream loudest" contest? Because in my experience, that's what happens when you don't address points. I'd rather not lower the topic to that level.

AGAIN you're missing the point entirely. The post in question is moot in and of itself because there was only one unclaimed hydra. Every other hydra was very open and honest, which says to me that you were very much so skimming and again attempting to appear town-motivated when in reality you're just keeping your head above water so players see you as trying to contribute when that couldn't be further from the truth.

How exactly does this make the post "moot"? I was asking who the heads were of the hydras, because;

1: It clears up confusion regarding the Hydra when someone posts from a main account by mistake. (example, I have no idea who Hoppster was until I trawled through the signup topic again.)
2: It allows for the heads to be easily distinguished from each other, allowing meta to be built on them, or experience from previous games compared to the way they're acting now. (And to counter the point that "mafia wasn't designed for meta", no, it wasn't, it was designed as a face-to-face game, which has seperate signs, for the trained eye. Meta is, I feel, the online equivalent.)
3: The very fact there's an unclaimed hydra implies that one or both has something to hide, that could be as simple as prior meta (which to be frank, I'd consider an unfair advantage, given that it's essentially turning up to a meeting with a mask on to hide your identity, same goes with alts.), or it could be something more sinister. (Such as a player blacklisted by majority of the other players, returning to cause trouble.)

[David Xanatos]

Buggered that right up. Fixed. I hope.

I didn't mention a word about Vifam, he's not the only person that was under the proverbial 'microscope'... so your response here is more or less void. The fact that you prefer a "laid back role" until town starts to light a fire under your ass isn't much of a defense either, much less a very town-motivated one.

Apologies, Vezok. Not Vifam, got them mixed up there. Regardless, one of the posts you linked was a direct response to Killerjester asking why I wasn't on an RVS wagon after being "specifically invited". I find it rather ironic actually that you claim it's bad that I changed my RVS vote, and yet at the same time, make it out as though my declining to move my RVS vote onto a stronger RVS wagon is somehow scummy too.

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI, when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily.. therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

Wow... so you

agree

that they're both random votes yet, by some force, you

disagree

that it's an RVS vote hopping onto another RVS vote? The fact that it's four minutes apart proves that it's two RVS votes back-to-back. You're bass ackwards here.

The way you phrase it is as though I'm hopping from an RVS vote onto a wagon for no reason, frankly I read that as trying to imply I'm sheeping, when little could be further from the truth.

Semantics. I'll type how I want, it's not my fault if you have a problem keeping up. You obviously fixed your own problem; what was the point in pointing this out? Have you ever heard of IIoA? This is a small example of it right here.

Because not everyone's a native english speaker, and frankly I wanted to point it out as a minor aside on the offchance that you were non-native, as it seemed to be to imply, as I said, that I was hopping onto an RVS wagon. In addition, the very fact it was four minutes shows that there was no intent behind either vote than simply poking them.

You're completely off base here. Whether you thought the Vezok wagon was warranted or not, you're play here is still "hurr hurr I'm hilarious" instead of doing some actual scum-hunting until the town, again, lights that fire under your ass. This is not town-motivated play; therefore, I still don't think you're town.

Are you trying to imply that simply hopping onto an RVS wagon is "scumhunting"? That's not scumhunting, that's sheeping. Blatant sheeping at that. You appear to essentially be saying that it's better to follow the pack without reason than observe the field.

It's funny how you're doing the exact same thing here.

Care to define how exactly? I'm defending points as they're raised, Vifam simply tried to misdirect.

And now you're just repeating yourself as if it's reiterating some sort of point. It isn't. You're simply justifying my original point in saying that you were stalling so it didn't look so much like a bandwagon vote as much as it is. What are your current thoughts on Vezok? I don't want a re-quoted read, I want what you feel at this exact moment. Go.

You're saying that jumping on a wagon without giving someone time to make their case is "stalling"? I call bullshit on that, quite frankly. When it became apparent that Vifam wasn't going to even attempt to defend herself, I voted, when Junpei took over and claimed, I backed off, believing his claim. Since then, Junpei in my eyes has been a massive asset to the town, offsetting all residual doubt I had on the slot based on Vifam. If Vifam had bothered defending herself, my vote may never have been on her in the first place.

And my thoughts on Vezok? I already gave some of my thoughts on him/her barely a couple of pages ago. If you want it in a nutshell, scummy as hell. Openly admits to buddying, doesn't care if s/he's buddying to scum in doing so, makes short, low to no content posts and tunnels rather heavily, also appears to be making rather harsh defenses for Meran, but I'm not sure what to make of that.

The last two sentences were chopped because, again, you like to talk and talk until the original point is diluted. Thanks. My point isn't about Admiral, it's about the fact that you're trying to justify your vote on Vezok (which you're still doing here, you're just using different words - neat scum tactic) and trying to look as town as possible when doing it. It's not convincing and, most of all,

still

not town-motivated.

How exactly is defending points on which I'm challenged "not town-motivated"? Is your idea of Town some strange opinionless person, willing to happily follow whatever opinion you happen to have at the time? Are you expecting my reasons for voting to change on a minute by minute basis? That's not logic, that's borderline multiple-personalities. I felt the case was strong enough to warrant a vote, so I voted. If you'd rather I told you to fuck off by way of response, I'd be happy to, but frankly I feel sharing motivations and mindsets helps Town to understand one another and clears up and miscommunication.

Does anyone think David is acting in a town-motivated manner here?

I'm not sure why exactly you're appealing to the peanut gallery here.. but whatever.

Wow... you're quite the paranoid player. If you had said "I've answered this" like I was saying, I think my original point would be pretty moot wouldn't it?

Your obvious paranoia doesn't sit well with me at all. I understand it may seem as if you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but that's not the case here, nor have I attacked every single thing you've done. I'm only placing a target on the things I find suspect. This over-defensive behavior just makes me think that I'm right.

Firstly, it's only paranoia if they're not actually after you, and the extent of tunneling shown by you rather proves that you are. Secondly, short, snapping responses don't help Town. It engenders feelings of hostility and doesn't allow any insight into the reasons behind something. Thirdly, over-defensive? I'm responding to points as they're raised. If I reiterate points, it's because someone's asking something I've answered already, and I could either link them to the post, which I believe they'd ignore anyway, or I can spell it out for them. Which would you prefer, number-soup or a few extra lines to read?

And herein lies my main issue with your starting play. Now you get the magical excuse of "oh, I was joking" every single time you're questioned or under fire. That's an excuse, your post in question seemed very serious and, therefore, defensive as hell.

You'll find that sarcasm =/= defensive. It was me poking fun at the fact that you promised a wall, and then went completely silent. It took you two days to post the damn thing. Do you know how dodgy it looks for someone to proclaim they're working on a wall, a day later apologise that it's late, promise it within 12 hours, miss /that/ deadline, and only post it on the third day? Frankly, to me that looks like someone trying to

look

busy.

Oh, and to address the "defensive" accusation further, would you rather we go down the rhetoric route, essentially a "who can scream loudest" contest? Because in my experience, that's what happens when you don't address points. I'd rather not lower the topic to that level.

AGAIN you're missing the point entirely. The post in question is moot in and of itself because there was only one unclaimed hydra. Every other hydra was very open and honest, which says to me that you were very much so skimming and again attempting to appear town-motivated when in reality you're just keeping your head above water so players see you as trying to contribute when that couldn't be further from the truth.

How exactly does this make the post "moot"? I was asking who the heads were of the hydras, because;

1: It clears up confusion regarding the Hydra when someone posts from a main account by mistake. (example, I have no idea who Hoppster was until I trawled through the signup topic again.)
2: It allows for the heads to be easily distinguished from each other, allowing meta to be built on them, or experience from previous games compared to the way they're acting now. (And to counter the point that "mafia wasn't designed for meta", no, it wasn't, it was designed as a face-to-face game, which has seperate signs, for the trained eye. Meta is, I feel, the online equivalent.)
3: The very fact there's an unclaimed hydra implies that one or both has something to hide, that could be as simple as prior meta (which to be frank, I'd consider an unfair advantage, given that it's essentially turning up to a meeting with a mask on to hide your identity, same goes with alts.), or it could be something more sinister. (Such as a player blacklisted by majority of the other players, returning to cause trouble.)

[David Xanatos]

In post #803, he references my post #742 in isolation, completely ignoring #744, in which I apologise and explain I hit "Submit" instead of "preview", and continue my answer.

Very, very selective quoting on his part. He then tried to link it to a post on a completely different subject, saying it didn't answer the question.

Of course it didn't answer the damn question, it wasn't ADDRESSING that question.

[David Xanatos]

Firstly, no, it's a null tell. There was no reason for me to get on it, so I didn't get on it. I didn't feel it would be more valuable than poking around in general, so I didn't move.

Secondly, as it says in the very part you quoted, when I get involved in something, I tend to get blinkered. I don't like that, so I take a step back initially to see if I catch anything to home in on.

Thirdly, then what exactly is he implying? The phrase "hopping onto another RVS vote" implies hopping onto a wagon, which is quite obviously not the case.

Fourthly, then tell me, why repeatedly draw attention to the fact I refused to join the Verok wagon? I've explained my stance on it numerous times, yet it's repeatedly drawn as some apparent sign of "scumminess".

And lastly, if you mean me actively avoiding simply telling them to fuck off, that's my attempt to actually address questions and concerns. Unless you're trying to say that clarifying stances and thoughts is a scumtell or something? <sarcasm>And here I thought that sharing information and opinions was something that we need to do as Town.. I now see that everyone has the assignment list except me, and can therefore simply read off who's scum..</sarcasm>

[David Xanatos]

ThAd, did you look at Junpei's list of reads? o_0

It's not only Zinger.

And how exactly am I a "fanboy" for noting the fact that he's able to express his thoughts well? That was a copy-paste from the notes I write up on everybody. *shrug*

[David Xanatos]

As I've also stated, I don't believe he /is/ town PR. I fully believe that he is either hostile third party or Scum. The last comment was, as I recall, a response to the people saying "but what if he is town?"

I subscribe largely to the idea of "Lynch all liars". It creates an unneeded level of complexity for Town, and only bites us in the ass on later days if we have to choose between a liar we previously chose to believe, and those who've not shown any reasons for being suspected.

[David Xanatos]

There was no justification for a gambit though. His is/was a role that would have gone pretty much undetected for a lengthy period of time if played properly, so trying to endear himself to Scum was by no means a justifyable move, either for a Town or Third Party. As Third Party, he reveals he's third party and negative to both sides, as Town, he reveals he's a PR to Scum, and hands them the opportunity to get rid of one of three PRs of their choice.. it's simply not logical and fuels my suspicion of him as Scum. It's the only side I can potentially see benefitting if this "gambit" worked..

[David Xanatos]

Tipsy/drunk scotsman just nudging topic to stop potential prod, ansrew, rodion's not fluffing, stop talking shite, going to bed.

[David Xanatos]

I'm in agreement, but I maintain that I believe hostile third party. I just don't see a neutral third party doing that, alerting people to their wincon..

[David Xanatos]

ThAd > I think by "soft target" he means someone who's already got pressure/wagoning on them, so a cursory attack and vote wouldn't look so out of place. At least that's the way I read it.

[David Xanatos]

Just a minor heads up. I'm covering as a replacement for another game, and need to read 1000+ posts, so I may lose focus on this for the next 1-2 days while I do so. Felt I should be open about it.

[David Xanatos]

Day 1 Vote count 12.5 (unoffical but I felt we needed an update)

Zinger 9 - Vezok, Leonshade, Junpei, 3isFrench, Izak, Pappum, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan
Silverdrummer 9 - Slate, Oversoul, Nero, Mera, Cherve, MOI, Pinky, THAdmiral, CHKBallin,
Izak 2 - ZeL1nk, Zinger
Chkballin 1 - Andrew
Nero 1 - Silver
DavidX 1 - PeregrineV


Mera (back 29th) Izak (Back 31st) Zinger (Back Tuesday)

With 27 alive it takes 14 to lynch with a deadline of 12th August 12pm EST

Still prefer the Zinger lynch.. ironically in trying to get the day to end quicker, people have brought it to a tie..

PEdit: Silver, there's over 1000 posts and it's day one. Realistically, I think we've got most of what we'll get without a lynch and set of night actions to look at.

[David Xanatos]

He's being replaced. That's INACTIVE lurker.

There's a key difference. One's in, and the other's replaced.

[David Xanatos]

Two confirmed prods and inactivity since, three prods in a day = replace, regardless of whether or not his last "post", if you can call it that (more of an excuse), he's hit the point of force-replace.

So yeah, argument null and void, try again.

[David Xanatos]

17] Prods will go out if you haven't posted in 72 hours. If you don't pick up that prod in 48 hours I will look for a replacement. If I end up having to prod you a bunch of times I will probably just replace you.

Two confimed prods, and 96 hours inactivity since the last "post". As I said above. And you accuse Pinky of not reading?

[David Xanatos]

And before you get smarmy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p3265633

In that he confirms the second prod.

"Pine will be replaced, he promised last night he would post after a 2nd Prod, but nothing yet is active elsewhere. I am taking this as a sign of not wanting to play. He has had 5 days. I believe that is more than fair."

[David Xanatos]

The mod confirmed a second prod in post #733.

733 comes before 915. Ergo, at the point of 915, he already had 2 prods. He has been inactive for 96 hours since then. Therefore he is over the inactivity threshold and is subject to replacement, under Jason's own rules.

Logic, comprehension, and above all, reading the damn posts would serve you well in future.

[David Xanatos]

He didn't react either way, but

for fecks sake read what I'm fecking saying

.

Even if Pine's post reset his "Timer", he's now 24 hours over the inactivity threshold for the third prod, in one day, under the rules, that's a replace.

Do not pass go, do not collect £200

.

[David Xanatos]

I'm going to refer you to post #1175. Read it.

[David Xanatos]

Why not just use the same hydra but change the pass? o_0

[David Xanatos]

But as has been said, you're splitting your ISO in half. Why do that? :S

[David Xanatos]

Because if someone wants to ISO the slot, they'll need to look up both hydras, and any posts you accidently make/made from all 3 main accounts?

[David Xanatos]

As far as I recall, Junpei claimed Tracker, Zinger claimed.. many things, but eventually settled on Town JK, and Zel1nk claimed Vig.

[David Xanatos]

And.. a fresh revelation there..

What exactly do you mean? Doesn't it, you know, tell you what you can do?

[David Xanatos]

One minor point here.. let's not get buried in the assumption that all roles have completely unrelated flavour. Either by coincidence or mod planning there could a few that fit together nicely. It is a nice catch though, let's just not rely on it as infallible.

I'm nearly defending Zinger.. I feel.. dirty somehow.

[David Xanatos]

Yes, I know that, but for one, he's paraphrasing, and secondly, I'm not saying his flavour isn't fake. I'm making a minor note about going down the thought-track of "all roles have unrelated flavour". If I didn't believe Zinger was Hostile 3rd/Scum, I wouldn't have my vote on him.

[David Xanatos]

Now that you've brought it up.. for the love of god please stop saying "anypony" and things along those lines.. it's moderately irritating and it's reducing the impact of your arguments somewhat, if only because mentally it seems like a five-year old delivering them...

Regardless, I know that the flavour is a summary of the character, but as I said, by luck or planning, there could be a role like "Chief Wiggum - Town Cop", or "Groundskeeper Wullie - Town Gravedigger". It wouldn't be wise to blinker ourselves to it, 'lest we go after someone who would have been incredibly useful.

PEdit: I think he got Zinger's name-claim mixed up with Zel1nk..

[David Xanatos]

Ah, wait, no. Zinger claimed Earl.

Zel1nk just claimed Vig, no name.

[David Xanatos]

Day 1 Vote count 13.1

• Zinger: 11 - Vezok, Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan, rainbow, Chevre
  Silver: 8 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, THAdmiral, Zinger, CHKBallin, Pinky
  Hipaddict: 1 - ,PeregrineV
  Izak: 1 - ZeL1nk
  Chkballin: 1 - Andrew
  Nero: 1 - Silver
  
  Not Voting: 4 - Banshee, drmyshottyizsik, Pine, Rodion.

Still 3 votes and 6 votes.. might be a bit early to talk about hammering either way.

And sorry, just experimenting with a little formatting for the VCs there. I think it makes them a little clearer, despite being unofficial. (Please note, I am not trying to represent them as official, I am fallible, if I get something wrong I'll correct it, but it makes it easier if there's a VC roughly every page or two.)

PEdit: Damn you Chevre. I agree though.. I shouldn't have argued, should have left him with his delusions of master-class lurking scum.

[David Xanatos]

There is no spoon either.

Regardless.. minor thing I'm wondering. Rodion, what're your thoughts on the two wagons?

You mention thinking Zinger was scummy, tempered with percieved exaggeration on Meran/Junpei's part, as well as mentioning that you didn't like Silver's "Ask the other head", and Pine focus.. what do you think of them now, and what was the thing you didn't want to mention about Silver on Monday?

I'm only asking as you're one of the four without a vote on anyone, and the only one of the four who doesn't really have inactivity as a solid excuse. (Two of the four are fresh replacements, Pine is being replaced, that leaves you.. I'm wondering why, with your reads, this is the case.. is it simply a case of not feeling strongly enough about anyone to lay down a vote, or is there something deeper?

[David Xanatos]

I think he means #1138, ISO #149. I may be mistaken though.

[David Xanatos]

Because you declared this site your "testing ground" yet haven't ever done any previous "testing". It seems excessively suspect.

[David Xanatos]

Zinger: 12 - Vezok, Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan, rainbow, Chevre, Pinky
Silver: 8 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, THAdmiral, Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew
Hipaddict: 1 - ,PeregrineV
Izak: 1 - ZeL1nk
Nero: 1 - Silver

Not Voting: 4 - Banshee, drmyshottyizsik, Pine, Rodion.

Unofficial, but I'm reasonably certain I've got it right.

[David Xanatos]

I think he may have misread 615 in response to 563...

[David Xanatos]

1) Okay.
2) Okay.

I just did a quick ISO and that was something that stood out as a potential.

[David Xanatos]

But if it puts him/her up as heavily suspicious (note: Not talking the Mera example here, making a general point) then surely, if s/he's lynched, it is anti-town? (Assuming he's town)

[David Xanatos]

I think I may be missing something here..

You went through a whole list of reasons you think lynching Zinger wouldn't give us any information, then say you want to lynch him anyway?

Uuh.. I can't reconcile that logic..

[David Xanatos]

Actually, the whole Silver - Pine thing has me actually suspecting Silver a little more now that he's dropped it, not less. I refuse to believe someone would make the demand for proof without looking themselves, and only actually bother looking themselves when pretty much everyone was calling them on it.. it seems quite scummy that his apparent hate of the slot just snuffed out because, shock horror, what people had been saying the entire damn time was true..

Rodion > Thanks for clearing that up. It was just something in the back of my mind.

Pappums > Does that bolded "1" mean there's more to come?

[David Xanatos]

Fair dos, just the way it was laid out I wasn't sure whether there was more or if it was a response to a number 1 point MoI made that I couldn't see..

[David Xanatos]

(NOTE: THIS IS NOT ME SUGGESTING THIS, THIS IS SIMPLY AN ANALOGY FROM AN OFF-SITE GAME I PLAYED).

Had to include that just on the offchance someone misunderstands..

Anyway, one of the best gambits (If you can call it that) I've seen was a D1 mass roleclaim. It was a ~30 player game, and the results were awesome. I was Mafia in it, and when it gathered weight, we had absolutely no idea how to handle it.. we didn't know if there were any role-cops, and we couldn't be seen as being the last to chime in. It made for some frantic discussion in the QT.

Sorry, slightly random but what Pappums said brought it to mind.. thought I'd share it for a little light relief.

[David Xanatos]

And as another minor aside, I did consider if that would be a viable tactic here, it seemed it would be, due to the lack of daytalk for most games (Or so I gather, they're the exception rather than the rule), but on the other forum, there was no update on preview, so the standard thing was pairing up and same-time claiming. By which I mean, both claim at 21:00:00 on the dot, so there's no chance of correcting a fake-claim. The lack of a recorded second on the posts here (As in, you see hours and minutes, no seconds) would make that much harder, as would the preview thing..

PEdit: A few of us worked that out, we ended up going with something like 2 vanillas, a Nurse claim, a Vig and a Jailkeeper (Vig was Assassin, Jailkeeper was Roleblocker). If we never had Daytalk though it would have descended into chaos.

[David Xanatos]

Isn't MOI voting you right now?

[David Xanatos]

He knows. He addressed that in his post.

Rodion > For the record, I've found your reasoning and logic to be fairly transparent. It may be a similar line of thinking but you've been reasonably easy to follow when you're explaining.. I can only assume Mera missed your point about your stance RE: his V/LA.. :/

[David Xanatos]

I did think that was oddly specific. At the time I was tempted to call it a scumslip but it seems too blatant.. I don't know what to think of it beyond "Bwah?".

And you can quote me on that thought.

[David Xanatos]

That's the thing though.. it's WIFOMish.. he could have done it as a way of making himself seem Town, because of the blatancy of the scumslip.

And I'm oddly concerned about your supposed role.. o_0

[David Xanatos]

It's 7am and I'm approaching it from the wrong direction. Consider it a monologue of sorts. I should probably go sleep..

On that note actually, is this considered twilight, or is it still considered part of the actual day phase? (I thought sleep, then night, then wondered. I have strange thought processes..)

[David Xanatos]

So you're demanding a quote to prove that people referenced other, ongoing games?

You do realise that's skirting the rules by a hair, right? You're not supposed to discuss them outside game threads.

There was nothing stopping you getting off your high horse and looking. It took you the entire day basically to do so, and even then only when MOI put himself in what I see as a rather precarious position with regard to the referencing/discussion rules to waggle it a metaphorical inch from your face.

Volk > That's what I thought, but I've seen variants.. thanks.

[David Xanatos]

My point was that people were telling you Pine was inactive, and had flaked out of the game. Consistent with his.. 3 posts? 4? Three prods? You know, the signs that are never obvious, like the Mod saying he was going to look for a replacement.

And I'm fairly sure (No I'm not searching his posts before I go to bed) that all his posts were/are in post-game topics, things that literally take a few seconds to update yourself on discussion and respond directly, as opposed to any time investment. If you'd checked ongoings, you'd have seen..

And no, you're saying I'm "coincidentally forgetting". I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that you would either not search, or search properly, not take a half-assed swing at it.

Bed now. Retort later.

[David Xanatos]

One of the?

Didn't you say they were identical earlier? :S

Thoughtedit: You did, 1394.. or did they reveal more information?

[David Xanatos]

Ah, just the fact you said you were waiting for mod confirmation made me think there was something new.

Banshee > As far as I can tell, a neighbouriser is basically a Mason Recruiter.

[David Xanatos]

Nero you're doing that thing where you ignore the bit at the end that proves that it is out of context.

I fail too see how Zinger stating that he's not confirmed anything and you responding "Oh u isn't confirmed scums, just our best chance of catching dems." is taking things out of content. You spent several posts stating that YOU felt Zinger was confirmed scum and would 100% NOT flip town. But when he was nearly lynched you changed your stance that he was no longer 100% scum. To me this looks like distancing from a lynch. Apparently I don't get how this is out of context so feel free to explain it for me.

So I think that Silver is most likely scum. However I don't like how quickly people jump to it, I assume that everyone's logic is the same as mine, but what about Andrew and ZeL1nK? Both have done some suspicious things and no one seems to be considering it much. Town, you can't have tunnel vision you must observe all possibilities and decide which makes the most sense. Once again, I think silver is scum but I want to explore other options so I won't be voting.

Do I really need to explain why this is full of fail?

I said that I do find Silver scummy. However look at people who are voting silver blindly

Moar discredit the wagon.

Its three votes, I don't see why you are so worried?

Crap discredit fight with Pere.

So, as it turned out I didn't have a ton of time during those 3 days or so to reread the thread and take notes.

........................................................
You have time to post 200 times but you don't have time but you don't have time to read?

First part: I don't really see Junpei distancing. He points out his other opinions but he still makes it clear that he's fully behind the Zinger lynch.

Second part: Yes, you do. He's making the point that people seem to be simply bandwagon hopping without providing their own reasons.. and frankly that'd concern me too. In my opinion, he's basically saying "I think Silver is scum, but there's no sense in a quick-lynch if we can get more information out of this".

Third part: I read that as including yesterday too.. Silver had 8-9 votes on him.

Psst, he didn't post 200 times in night phase by the way.

PEDIT: Rainbow, gonna expand on your other "Good lynch" pool reasoning?

[David Xanatos]

@DavidXanatos:

Why did you defend Junpei before he had a chance to defend himself? He's nowhere near a lynch and he is a capable player, so I see no reason for you to jump to his defense.

@shotty:

You don't have to wait for anyone to ask before you say things, I just wondered why you said that.

Because I was online and the points Nero made were those of someone who looked like they were blatantly ignoring the obvious reasons. Asking questions that the answer is apparent to doesn't help anyone.

[David Xanatos]

E. The second recruit to the Neighborhood was a scum-read of the Neighborizor. After he talked about ‘keepeing the integrity’.

Are you willing to tell us who the second recruit was?

If you aren't, can you give us your own opinion on the one he recruited? Do you think they're scummy?

[David Xanatos]

Andrew, given that you've now confirmed yourself as the neighbouriser, I'll direct this to you too.

Who was the supposed "scum-read" you invited to the neighbourhood? Why did you invite a scum-read if Jason has apparently confirmed to you that they could then invite people themselves? Why did you choose to invite MoI in the first place? What are the terms of your role, as described to MoI?

Those questions should do for now..

[David Xanatos]

And for the record, I just read over the game Silver's using as a defense.. different situation as far as I can see. May read more into it but I can't justify wasting any more time.. >_<

[David Xanatos]

You know, in that game you were actually worse. You self-hammered as Town, putting the game into MYLO... that's not exactly something to be proud of having meta for. If you'd no-lynched, or let the deadline expire, it would have went to 5-2.. better odds at least, combined with the NL and the mafia lynch... I simply can't see the logic in your play that game. You know for a fact you are Town, and by self-hammering you gave the Scum an advantage. -_-

[David Xanatos]

I'm still of the opinion that there's little to no chance of there being two town neighbourisers, and given the information shared by MoI and, to an extent, Andrew, I find little reason not to follow this up. If further information is revealed about it, I may reconsider my position, but for now..

VOTE: Andrew

[David Xanatos]

I don't recall seeing anything suggesting they die if they target scum.. I only saw it HERE though.. :/

[David Xanatos]

No listing of "not voting"?

[David Xanatos]

Mera > I know what you mean about Shotty. I'd call it redirection but jesus christ.. I've never seen attempts to redirect attention that are so.. bad.

I'm not sure if this is a WIFOM situation.. as in saying things like "why is noone else commenting on (X)", he pretty much ensures people write off (X) as a concept completely.

And.. why ignore Izak? o_0

[David Xanatos]

You mean barely coherent snuggling up to people he thinks are intelligent town? o_0

[David Xanatos]

At Uni right now, finishing a little coursework. Missed that post. Will get back to you when I'm less-busy.

[David Xanatos]

Got a moment to read over that. If you didn't realise, that was me making a comment. If I had to put my thoughts in a nutshell, it'd be the following.

"Stop trying to make a martyr of yourself and play to your goddamn win condition."

[David Xanatos]

Castle Bravo > Could be any number of things. The way you've worded it, Gunsmith.

[David Xanatos]

ISOing Andrew quickly, he also took shots at Easjo, Junpei and myself, and declared Izak town.. and not one of the declarations seemed to have a coherent reasoning behind it..

[David Xanatos]

Please explain how giving yourself up as a martyr is productive to Town.

To me, that's a mislynch, which means one less lynch used to actually hunt Scum, unless you are Scum, in which case you're getting yourself lynched for no reason, thereby hurting your team's chances, thereby not playing to your wincon.

[David Xanatos]

It depends entirely on the context. For example, Zinger was an absolute idiot, who lied about his role. You didn't KNOW that he was TPR. The only person you KNOW is Town is yourself, so you're giving up a confirmed VT (In your own eyes) to protect an unverified player of unknown alignment and role.

100% chance at VT or X% chance at TPR, which may also be VT, Scum, Third Party?

[David Xanatos]

You brought it up. Demanding that we meekly back down because you say so just shows that you have your head jammed firmly up your arse. You're implying you KNEW he was Town. No, you didn't. You guessed. Same as we suspected he'd be non-Town.

And here's the difference. If you were a day-scanning PR, apart from the obvious implications that you'd be even more of a fanny for trying to play the martyr card, you would KNOW his role. As a VT, you're an idiot who's guessing, and if you sacrifice yourself as a VT, KNOWING you're a VT, and in doing so rescue a Scum team member or a Third Party that'd be hostile to Town, you are actively impeding your win condition.

To put it in the simplest possible terms for you, there are six factions to consider.

Confirmed Town
Suspected Town
Confirmed Third Party
Suspected Third Party
Confirmed Scum
Suspected Scum

If someone isn't in group 1, you don't sacrifice yourself for them.

[David Xanatos]

The subject was all but dropped until you dragged it back to the surface, so yes, you did bring it up. I actually had to take time out from coursework to look back and find the damn thing.

And Pappums, while I can see a theoretical reasoning for neighbourizing scum reads, is it worth the chance of them relaying everything you say/have said back to the chat? The only real benefit I could see to it would be the ability to question them at night, unless I'm missing something?

And just a minor thing, Silver, why the hell did you claim this early anyway?

If you are, as you claim, VT, claiming is counter-productive, as it narrows the field of possible Town-PR. The best thing a VT can hope for is being NKed by Scum, therefore protecting someone else by default..

[David Xanatos]

Read the first line of what I said.

And I can't remember the game title that I was looking at last time, and if you think I'm digging through your posts to find it again, you can frankly fuck right off. Too late at night. Too little patience to deal with you.

And softclaiming =/= claiming. I could softclaim Cop, doesn't mean I am one, and it doesn't mean I should drop all cover and fullclaim just because there's no "mystery".

[David Xanatos]

Don't give yourself such credit, if I was at all inclined to want your lynch I'd vote for you. I think you're a VI, a particularly stupid one at that, which leaves me inclined to think "If he was Scum, his team would have told him to wind his neck in by now.".

So I frankly couldn't care less if you want to ignore me, I'm sure it will be bliss, not having to deal with your inane arguments.

Junpei > I can see where you're coming from.. I do agree that it seems weird he brought that up to the exclusion of other examples, but in this instance, Silver was the most recent example (Other than Shotty, but he pulled up Shotty for something in the same post, and I'd argue the implications apply to both), and was likely the one that drew KJ's attention.

[David Xanatos]

Hmm.. I must admit I overlooked that. That's.. a very good catch. KJ, can you define your stance on Silver? In honesty, in my fatigued state, I'm seeing you both saying that Town Silver wouldn't do this, and that Town Silver would do this because he's done it before.. humour me and clarify please.

*If the English doesn't make sense, read it in Yoda's voice and pretend it was funny, or send me caffiene.

[David Xanatos]

Not you.. was meant as "I'm seeing KJ saying both that...." et cetera.

And can't. Need to wait up to unlock the door for someone. Blarg.

[David Xanatos]

Okay, yes. Thank you for that.. not feeling great and the very fact you didn't snap at me there has reinforced my impressions of you.

I wanna go to sleep.

[David Xanatos]

RD > In a nutshell, I find your peregrine logic pretty solid. Will go over it again in a more sound state of mind and get back to you. Oversoul however I have noted down as being quite dodgy, posts are lacking in content and sparse, he's either flaked or lurking heavily. Wouldn't be happy with a lynch, but he bears investigation if we have someone.

Minor thing I noticed though:

"Death list is upgraded to: Peregrine, andrew, chkballin, Izak, DX and oversoul. In that order."

From you. Why the dislike of an andrew lynch if he was your 2nd top suspect, and what changed that?

Also, not quite sure why you're apparently marking me as "fighting up the death list". Willing to expand on reasoning?

[David Xanatos]

Have fun. Bring us all back shakycam footage of the entire show.

*Not actually serious. Please don't.*

[David Xanatos]

Being non-commital I find is another symptom of flaking/lurking. And I don't mean site-flaking, if I meant site-flaking I'd have said that, I meant flaking from this game.

As for the second point, it's unlikely there'd be two town neighbourisers, and I simply can't understand why you'd invite someone you have a scum read on. I still would like to know who that was so we can compare it to his views stated in the thread though, otherwise we are relying pretty much solely on MoI. :/

And you do realise that's not tangible reasoning? I'm asking what in particular you're taking issue with, that we might discuss it and share stances. None of us benefit from shutting ourselves up in boxes and staring fixedly out the airholes at people.

[David Xanatos]

I'm hardly sheeping, given that I was the one originally asking him to do exactly what he did, reveal the one he felt is more likely to be Scum. I'm willing to trust his judgement on that because I can't see him taking such a solid stance without thinking it through, and Andrew's own reaction has made him look rather worse in my eyes, and it's the closest to a solid alignment read we have.

I can't really see the reasoning behind compromising a neighbourhood.. care to explain?

And as I said, it's a symptom of his flaking.. he's not put the time in to actually study the situations, so he's handwaving and hoping to get through to the next prod-dodge. I'd want to find out if he's going to be prodded before we start considering active-lurk. (He already has 3 prods, and this would be his fourth, which would mean a replace.. again.. :/)

[David Xanatos]

Clarification. It appears I've mis-noted on my request(s) to MoI, I was under the impression I'd asked him to name the one he thought was scummier, but I evidently overlooked that. I did however ask him for details et cetera et cetera, and I stand by that I'm willing to trust in his consideration of the case before he named Andrew. And I can finally go to bed! See you all in.. hopefully about 10 hours.

[David Xanatos]

I have no sodding idea what the hell this means:

"to see what he says, i can determine the other guys alignment from junpei(As im not THAT sure) "

Are you seriously suggesting we lynch a claimed Tracker so you (think you can) discover what alignment your recruit it? o_0

[David Xanatos]

Rainbow > Doing an ISO of Oversoul and Pere now.. apologies it's taken me this long, had an exam.

[David Xanatos]

Okay. Impression of Peregrine from reading through his ISO and checking contexts is that he's far, far too non-commital, as you say. His entire D1 play could be summarised as "X makes a good point, but so does Y."

*votes someone non-controversial*.

At this point, I would be behind pressure on him, not to a full-claim perhaps, but I want a list of his reads, with reasoning. No "well X might be Y", solid reads. If he doesn't have any solid reads by now, I'd say that's grounds enough for investigation.

Moving on to Oversoul now.

[David Xanatos]

And again Peregrine dodges the demands to give his reads on people, and tries to demand reads from others.

That's anti-town if not outright scummy.

UNVOTE: Andrew
VOTE: Peregrine

Reads. You've been dodging this and fence sitting for far too long. You have no right to demand of others what you yourself have provided sweet F.A of.

[David Xanatos]

8) im not sure whether im responding to that or not. im saying i can
determine another guys alignment from junpei

@david X misunderstands me as usual. i never said anything about lynching junpei.

You do realise Junpei's claimed Tracker, right? Not a Cop? Can't determine alignments?

He follows people and finds out who they visited.. the Town Doc still goes to someone's house if they were protected by him and hit by a strongman shot..

[David Xanatos]

Is noone else noting the obstinancy of Peregrine, refusing to actually give opinions or reads?

Getting anything out of him appears to be akin to pulling teeth, and refusal to actually condense reads into a clear post reeks of avoidance for me, trying to force anyone reading into his opinions, past and present, to dig through every damn post looking for the snippets of actual information on his stance..

[David Xanatos]

yes I did

-Nero
What is your read on andrew?

ISO 33

Its possible that one of the neighborizers is scum, its also possible they are both town and while its much less of a possibility both could be scum but there was only one night kill so..

No, you didn't.

[David Xanatos]

What's pro-town about hiding all his reads in the middle of posts? It gives me the impression of squirreling away his opinions so that if he's wrong, noone can pull them out and call him on them..

[David Xanatos]

Vifam might be scum, but the response sounds like it would be from town also. But, that's probably because I'm soft-hearted.

- Null, Fence Sitting.

Jily got Snarky, which is the first time in 5 games or so. So either she's growing some

cojones

through experience, or she's more confident because she has "team" to back her up.

- Null, fence sitting.

Bad vibes from DavidX, because while it's OK to follow up a joke vote with a joke question, you throw in real questions to. Not continue the joke past that unless it's netted you some other information.

- Not null, but responded to.

Unvote.
Vote:chkballin

I'm suspicious of DavidX also, so you can buy my vote with your promised wall about his scumminess.

- A vote for no given reason, including an allowance of a "bought" vote. Doesn't seem right to me, although I will concede the situation may have my opinion coloured somewhat there.

My vote is on chkballin for fake promising reads, but not liking the posts of DavidX. I think MoI is town, but probably because I like the posting style.

Leaning town on Killer, want Marco to throw out some reads while waiting.

- Questionable reasoning on chkballin, blatant gut speculation on me, blatant gut speculation on MoI, and town-lean with no qualification on Killer.

@Chkballin- Yes, thank you. Now I can go back to

Unvote.
Vote: DavidX

- I read this as "Thank you for giving me a "Me too!"".

Unvote.
VotE: 3isFrench

At least DavidX appears to be trying more.

Silver will either be investigated or killed at this point, so it's probably a wasted lynch. Aside from the Pine fascination, looks to be town.

Zinger I think is town-3rd party-mafia in that likelihood order.

- Doesn't even mention his new vote target.. hasn't mentioned anything about them prior to this point.. openly discourages a Silver lynch based on nothing more solid than a vague handwave of "looks to be Town" and more or less justifies this with "we can investigate/kill him later"..

@Nero- Well, I've been suspecting 3isF for about 25 pages now, but I was put off by the fact DavidX suspected him, and I liked DavidX's posting even less.

DavidX has since made better posts, but a look at 3isF indicates the same is not true for him.

I don't care if he is a "major wagon" for today. Why would I vote to lynch Zinger or Silver based on my opinions I've already given? I guess if they have or do change I would, but so far they haven't.

Instead, why don't you join me in voting 3isF? Together, we can make his lynch happen!!

- Despite the fact that my vote on 3isF was a blatantly obvious joke-vote, gives

little to

no indication of

why

he suspects him. Tries to start a wagon based on nothing..

Half the scum are on the Zinger wagon, one or two on silver, and one elsewhere.

- Has been mentioned before. Extremely specific, do not like this at all.. has not given even vague reasoning for this.

I would like an elaboration, please, since I have a town read on Meransiel, and Captain Bravo (and you might be biased since he's voting you and tunneling you hard, so can you add a read #4?), and was wondering if you do not believe Junp's claim, or do you think he is a scum tracker?

Understood on town reads. Thanks!

- Town reads on Mera and Bravo, no reasoning given. Previous post expressed a "Null" read of me.

That help at all?

[David Xanatos]

See my last point. I noted it, just forgot to quote it and couldn't be bothered going back.

[David Xanatos]

You do realise that I ISOed you and just went "Ctrl-F "Andrew""?

And "following" Junpei around?

I posted about Peregrine. I saw in the preview-edit you simply saying "Yes I did", I ISOed you, did the above, and found only that.

1.You so didn't read that well or are intentionly misreading. Either way, Junpei made it clear that HE felt Zinger was scum and that there was no chance in hell that Zinger would flip town. When Zinger was near lynched he changed his stance that Zinger was no longer 100% scum but only the best chance to lynch scum. He can say I'm taking things out of context all he wants but the posts are there.

2. To bandwagon hop someone has to be on a[nother] wagon to hop from. lol He throws out Andrew and Ze1. Tells town not to tunnel. Wants us to look at other possibilities. Says he wants to explore other possibilities while not doing so himself. Afirms that he thinks Silver is scum but is afraid of putting a vote down.

3. Thats BS of the smelliest kind. He was talking about today and the three votes on Silver.

+++What do you have to do with Jun? Why are you defending him?

1: You do realise that talking about people as "Scum" means "In my opinion, most likely to be Scum", right? Excluding Role reports, there is no way to be certain. I was pretty damn sure about Zinger too, based on the situation, as were many. He pushed until the end, as did many.

2: You do realise that "exploring other possibilities" does not mean "throw my vote around like it's a frisbee until someone catches it", right? I read that as a general reminder to everyone not to get bogged down.

3: Uuh, how exactly can you call how I read something "BS of the smelliest kind"? You may have read it differently, but to claim that I'm lying about the way I read something? What're you claiming, Town Psychologist? If you want detail, the way I read that was warning people off the excuse of "following on from D1", and taking a fresh look at things. Which really most should have done over the Night, but not everyone has the time. A cooling-off period can change the way words appear.

And you think that an attack on what I percieve as a poor argument is purely a defense? That's rather naive, frankly. Are you implying that Town should sit back and let arguments go back and forth without questioning suspect points?

[David Xanatos]

And you're expecting us to outright deny an absurd link?

Rodion > Hmm.. I can see the chkballin thing as a "motivational", but it's the phrasing "buy my vote" that sets me off..

[David Xanatos]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Applying pressure and feeling people out is an integral part of this game.

[David Xanatos]

Your way, we go into D3 with a lot less information. That's a bad thing. Your way, we're relying too much on the Night game. We have deadlines for a reason, and we're nowhere near ours.

[David Xanatos]

Andrew, already given my reasons, and had my vote on him before Pere. Would like to see pressure on Pere though to contribute more though.

[David Xanatos]

How would a replacement fare any better in this situation? o_0

Can't you just take a couple days and read everything? Hell, even skimming's better than nothing.

[David Xanatos]

Major disadvantage to that.. if you direct the Vig, and you're targetting Town, the Scum won't care. If you're directing the Vig and targetting Scum, the Scum will attempt to interfere with the kill if they can.. you're giving up a 100% chance of getting rid of him in favour of something resembling a logic diagram.. :/

[David Xanatos]

Since the intent of my vote on Pere was to try and build pressure to make him post more content, and noone seems to be bothered, I'm going back to my previous..

UNVOTE: Peregrine
VOTE: Andrew

Already given my reasoning, back when I first voted..

[David Xanatos]

In honesty, I did to begin with, but frankly I keep getting the feeling he's more VI than Scum by this point..

[David Xanatos]

That, plus his reactions to pressure since then, his general flip-flopping (Dear god I can't say that without thinking of JK Bistables now..), combined with a distinct lack of coherency to his arguments even prior to your revealing him..

[David Xanatos]

Let me get this straight. You're claiming that Andrew is Town, despite his flip-flopping, and overall basically incomprehensible play?

[David Xanatos]

It would be much fairer to label me "unpredictable" than "always this scummy and useless".

If you want to cement your unpredictable reputation, give us some reads on who you think the scum are and why. I will almost guarantee no one expects that at this point.

I.. don't know what to say to this.

I lol'd.

+9001 internets for you.