TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Banshee]

Secondly what is "scummy" and where did meransiel allegedly "softclaimed scum"?

You're not really asking me what "scummy" is, are you?
I didn't make cases on my suspicions because at some point we have to end this very long day. But I had to get them out there now in case I don't get another chance. If I'm still here tomorrow, I'll make my cases then.

I already answered the second part.

@Vollkan: How is that particular variety of sarcasm helpful to town? Is it your experience that scum never use sarcasm in this way?

I'm an alt from this site.

[vollkan]

@Vollkan: How is that particular variety of sarcasm helpful to town? Is it your experience that scum never use sarcasm in this way?

1) The test for whether or not something scummy is whether or not it would be unreasonable for a townie to do it - not whether it actually HELPS town or not. (use of proper punctuation doesn't help town, but you'd hardly argue that that is a scumtell)
2) Likewise, it's absolutely not true that unless scum "never" do something, it's a scumtell. (to use the above analogy, I am sure many scum use proper punctuation)

[Banshee]

1) The test for whether or not something scummy is whether or not it would be unreasonable for a townie to do it - not whether it actually HELPS town or not. (use of proper punctuation doesn't help town, but you'd hardly argue that that is a scumtell)

Do you believe it reasonable for a townie to refuse to post during Day 1 and, when called on it as a likely scum strategy, to agree in the particular way Meransiel did?

The reason this situation is full of WIFOM imo is that I can't see scum making that statement either. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would behave as Meransiel did and then make that statement.

This isn't the equivalent of using good punctuation; the analogy is bad. This is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on oneself and standing in the middle of a crowd asking if anyone has a light. It IS unreasonable for a townie to do it; it's also unreasonable that scum would do it, hence the WIFOM.

[vollkan]

1) The test for whether or not something scummy is whether or not it would be unreasonable for a townie to do it - not whether it actually HELPS town or not. (use of proper punctuation doesn't help town, but you'd hardly argue that that is a scumtell)

Do you believe it reasonable for a townie to refuse to post during Day 1 and, when called on it as a likely scum strategy, to agree in the particular way Meransiel did?

The reason this situation is full of WIFOM imo is that I can't see scum making that statement either. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would behave as Meransiel did and then make that statement.

This isn't the equivalent of using good punctuation; the analogy is bad. This is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on oneself and standing in the middle of a crowd asking if anyone has a light. It IS unreasonable for a townie to do it; it's also unreasonable that scum would do it, hence the WIFOM.

Sarcasm is harmless...self-immolation isn't.

The lurking doesn't really come into this at all (you are conflating that with his sarcasm)

[vollkan]

1) The test for whether or not something scummy is whether or not it would be unreasonable for a townie to do it - not whether it actually HELPS town or not. (use of proper punctuation doesn't help town, but you'd hardly argue that that is a scumtell)

Do you believe it reasonable for a townie to refuse to post during Day 1 and, when called on it as a likely scum strategy, to agree in the particular way Meransiel did?

The reason this situation is full of WIFOM imo is that I can't see scum making that statement either. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would behave as Meransiel did and then make that statement.

This isn't the equivalent of using good punctuation; the analogy is bad. This is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on oneself and standing in the middle of a crowd asking if anyone has a light. It IS unreasonable for a townie to do it; it's also unreasonable that scum would do it, hence the WIFOM.

Sarcasm is harmless...self-immolation isn't.

The lurking doesn't really come into this at all (you are conflating that with his sarcasm)

EBWOP: with the first sentence, my point is that your attempt to compare it to setting oneself on fire is bad because it compares it to something that is very clearly harmful. Sarcasm may be impolite/flippant, but it isn't destructive or anti-town

[David Xanatos]

But if it puts him/her up as heavily suspicious (note: Not talking the Mera example here, making a general point) then surely, if s/he's lynched, it is anti-town? (Assuming he's town)

[Banshee]

I think the comment (sarcasm or not) is a direct response to being called on the lurking, so I don't think you can separate the two issues neatly. The comment REFERS to the lurking.

I'm not sure how you're using harmful. Nothing that happens on this site is harmful in the real world, I suppose. But the use of language, including sarcasm, is the basis for lynching people in this game. So I still think my analogy is closer than yours.

[vollkan]

But if it puts him/her up as heavily suspicious (note: Not talking the Mera example here, making a general point) then surely, if s/he's lynched, it is anti-town? (Assuming he's town)

Yeah, but again - that can be said about anything. The point is that sarcasm isn't ordinarily going to be treated as a scumtell, because most people will pick up on it (seriously, what's more likely - that a person claims scum or that they are being snide?).

I think the comment (sarcasm or not) is a direct response to being called on the lurking, so I don't think you can separate the two issues neatly. The comment REFERS to the lurking.

I'm not sure how you're using harmful. Nothing that happens on this site is harmful in the real world, I suppose. But the use of language, including sarcasm, is the basis for lynching people in this game. So I still think my analogy is closer than yours.

Lurking's one of those player-specific things that is bad but usually not scummy. In Meran's case, it seemed to be a laziness thing - which is perfectly in keeping with him responding sarcastically.

I'm using "harmful" in the sense of "objectively anti-town".

[jasonT1981]

Day 1 Vote count 14

Zinger 12 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum,, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Slate,Cherve,Pinky (L-2)
Silver 8 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, THAdmiral, Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew
Hipaddict 1 - PeregrineV
Izak 1 - ZeL1nk,
Nero 1 - Silver

Not Voting: 4 - Banshee, drmyshottyizsik, Pine, Rodion.

Mera (back 29th) Izak (Back 31st)

With 27 alive it takes 14 to lynch with a deadline of 12th August 12pm EST

[Banshee]

VOTE: Zinger

That's L-1.

[David Xanatos]

I think I may be missing something here..

You went through a whole list of reasons you think lynching Zinger wouldn't give us any information, then say you want to lynch him anyway?

Uuh.. I can't reconcile that logic..

[Banshee]

I think he is scum or hostile third party. I think his play has been so poor that it has eliminated any possibility of a true information lynch. I think the day needs to end soon since it's already over fifty pages.

I think I said most of this before in previous posts.

[ThAdmiral]

Secondly what is "scummy" and where did meransiel allegedly "softclaimed scum"?

You're not really asking me what "scummy" is, are you?

Yes I am. I'm asking what you think "scummy" means in relation to those players.

I didn't make cases on my suspicions because at some point we have to end this very long day. But I had to get them out there now in case I don't get another chance. If I'm still here tomorrow, I'll make my cases then.

Cop.
Out.

I already answered the second part.

I saw. Cross-posts...

[Banshee]

Cop.
Out.

I'm currently working on my case on Rodion (I literally have nothing better to do at the moment) so if you want that, I'll post it when it's done. I don't see anyone rushing in to hammer so I may as well.

I just want the day to end, honestly. It is hard enough getting replacements now, and it's only going to get worse. In my opinion long days cause apathy that benefits scum and hurts town.

What makes you think these people are town, ThAdmiral? What has semi or fully confirmed them in your eyes?

[Banshee]

As promised, my case on Rodion. Still voting Zinger, not moving my vote today.

I need to reveal a portion of meta that I think clears someone else before explaining a part of why I think Rodion is scum. It's a specific paradigm I've seen before, with TheFonz (one part of Pappums Leather Jacket) defending a newb against an attack (My God, he's only a BABY!) and voting the person he perceives as persecuting the newbie on the thought that it's scummy to do that. In the case I saw, TheFonz was town, the person he attacked was town, and the newbie was, in fact, scum. This led me to look at Rodion much more carefully because I don't absolutely agree with TheFonz about not pressuring newbies, but I do think it's a towntell for him. So I semi-confirmed TheFonz as town and put an IGMEOY on Rodion for the reread.

The Magna of Illusion dispute was pretty inconclusive for me, though I did note that MoI looked like town and Rodion came off null. I can't usually tell when it's town-town or town-scum (though I'm pretty good at spotting the distancing scum-scum attack-retreat dance) so I just noted it. Rodion didn't seem to have good reasons but they didn't seem scum-beneficial either.

Then we hit this and the first thing that I can point to that was directly problematic after I started watching him.

Well, I am a mislynch. Period. Granted, scum would claim to be town as well, but I'm not appealing to emotion as much as stating a fact, fact being "I am town".

Apparently, he's town. And in the same post there's this self-serving parroting of TheFonz's argument that you shouldn't pressure newbs, except they might be scum, but then they might blow up and you'll get bits of newb all over you. Rodion expressly emphasises his own newbness.

A lot of my problems with Rodion center around claims and overreactions to wagons; any one of these things would not be a big deal by themselves, but taken together look like a pattern of behaviour. He wants a fullclaim during the Vezok RVS wagon, he wants to vote for Vifam but is afraid to hammer before a claim, he reacts to ZeLink and Zinger's claims oddly and starts asking for as many details as possible on those claims, and he asks about Mafia busdrivers, lynchers, and other weird and wonderful roles in a way that I very much didn't like.

He defends Zinger for a while, and this actually made me reevaluate Rodion because his logic made sense to me and I was agreeing with a lot of his points. Then he started doing analysis of players, and that's when I lost all faith in his townness.

Rodion is conciliatory (my personal favourite scumtell) pretty much without exception. He dismisses a number of disputes as misunderstandings, notably here and here and helpfully informs others of how they can avoid such misunderstandings in future here, which is a pretty clear contrast to his I'm-just-a-newb excuses early on.

And these individual analyses are exactly characteristic of what I think scum would do, not offending anyone particularly and not offering much in the way of insight.

here and here

He gives ZeL1nK scum points for concealing his hydra. Yes, he does. The least useful and accurate scumtell ever.

Rodion is too interested in outing power roles as a general rule, too conciliatory in his analysis of the players and overall the scummiest player in my view. Counterarguments, angry flames and logical rebuttals are always welcome.

[Nero Cain]

-Nero

We can argue all day if you want Silver but thats only helpful for scum wich I suspect is what you want.

Did not state let's argue so don't try to twist words. Expand on how having more time and having more posts ala more information is exactly what scum wants?

Its currently day 1 with 50 pages. Me and you or anyone arguing back and forth is just a distraction. Lynches provide a ton of information. Of course you don't want a lynch on yourself (though that very much contradicts an earlier statement).

+and just in general if we have a scum wagon the more time scum has to point fingers elsewhere and derail.

Scum want full cases put on them so they can look at things to discredit.

If you have a good case on someone... that makes others possibly believe them as scum and you earn others joining you... so how's that help if you have a case on scum?
Only if someone has faulty evidence can it be discredited which leaves the possibility that your mislynching. It's simple logic

No. I think if I come out and say "X, X, X reasons are why I find this slot scummy" and someone says "oh well I can't refute those points, what else ya got?" Thats why scum want full cases.

Gah silverbullet is so obvscum, but zinger still needs to die 100% chance vs 75%, seriously; theres no way hes town

???

If Silver is obvscum(wich I agree he is) why is he only 75%?

Unvote.
VotE: 3isFrench

Silver will either be investigated or killed at this point, so it's probably a wasted lynch. Aside from the Pine fascination, looks to be town.

??????????

This post makes me a little angry. I agree that he's likely to be kiled/investigated depened on his alihnment but thats no reason to not lynch him. Wanted a vig/cop investigation to be wasted on obvscum is scum logic.

++++your vote on TiFsucks. Its avoiding both major bandwagons. It does nothing as TiF is not going to be todays lynch.

I know you've recently come into the game, but perhaps you could elaborate on the silver town tells?

His early reaction to the claim from Zinger.

Him being on that wagon

is actually the only reason he is not one of my top town reads.

but he's not on the Zinger wagon.

Hello all, I have a lot of catching up to do. Can someone please give me a quick jist of this game.

Uhh...

Zlinger claimed earl

Vifam was put at L-2, I replaced in, claimed Tracker

Zlinger claimed thirdparty JK

Zlinger crazyclaims doc(i guess?)

Zlinger claims Town JK

this seems rather bias to me.

@JLunpei,

Stop calling me Zlinger. It's ZINGER.

There is no L.

Asking someone who has no respect for you to do something fully for the sake of your preference is idiotic because all it will do is cause that person to not do it in spite of you.

Its common courtesy to call a player by his or her name or a common nickname. I also think its a slightly scummy thing to do b/c its an attempt to get under the players skin. Volkan did it to me in death at a hotel mafia (by calling me Neo Chain). Not sure why Cherve is doing it this game though.

@Jun can you clarify your read on the silver slot for me?
+can you confirm Vifams name claim?

[killerjester]

Hi I'm killerjester with strep throat. My life's been pretty full with antibiotics, lots of lying on my couch, and not making out with pretty girls.

The only objection I have to lynching Zinger is that I don't think it's going to derive a lot of information for town. To me, the first lynch is usually an information lynch that has the potential to catch scum but is not all that likely to do so. The reactions surrounding Zinger's bizarre and unhelpful play are pretty uniform across the board. Some argue that Zinger is town, some argue that he's scum or unpleasant third party, but everyone generally reacted as if Zinger showed up drunk to the dance recital and started throwing up in front of the stage. And I think that's a fair reaction. It just doesn't give town as much information and highlights the anti-town nature of Zinger's play. That said, I still want to lynch him.

I really don't like this bit. It feels like you're giving everyone a free pass to vote Zinger, because there's no way we'll catch them for hopping on the bandwagon alone. If there

was

a way to analyze the votes, you're making that bit harder. I guess what I'm saying is your objection hurts the town more than it helps, so why are you saying it? Especially when you think Zinger is an anti-town third party (or scum, at second best), why would you have ANY objections to lynching him?

[hipaddict1]

Gah silverbullet is so obvscum, but zinger still needs to die 100% chance vs 75%, seriously; theres no way hes town

???

If Silver is obvscum(wich I agree he is) why is he only 75%?

I think he meant that Silver is 100% obvscum, while Zinger is only

probable

obvscum at 75%.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Banshee, which particular game do you mean in terms of your Fonz meta?

[Banshee]

Look at it this way. The first day has dragged on for fifty+ pages. I personally think we would derive more information from a different lynch and I have pointed out who I wanted to lynch. In a perfect world, I would be pushing Rodion's lynch for the reasons I've already stated. I'd be asking him to explain himself. I'd be taking up some pages to give more information to town.

I can't do that because FIFTY pages is far too much. I know this for sure. I just read it over TWICE. I'm still sure I missed things; how much worse would it be for the next replacement when Day One goes to seventy, eighty, one hundred pages long?

And, since nearly everyone is on Zinger's wagon, how is anything I say going to affect them getting a free pass? I don't need a free pass. I'm not asking for one. I don't gain anything by giving one to everyone else on the wagon either. I stand by my comment from earlier: IMO Zinger's play justifies the reception it got and continues to get.

What kind of vote analysis do you think is possible on Zinger's wagon, Killerjester? In what way is my opinion hampering that kind of VCA? (Just curious, I'm not seeing it personally. It's only one person's opinion.)

@PLJ: Just a sec, I'll get you a link.

[Banshee]

@PLJ:Here you go.

[Junpei]

First of all, no one quick hammer just yet please. For the time being lets assume people who quickhammer are scum.

Junpei - Vifam was scummy and replaced out under pressure. Junpei claimed Tracker and then started burying the argument under walls of text like a cat trying to hide the evidence in the litter box.

Alright, I buryed the argument under walls of text? Explain how I did that, because there wasn't much argument against my slot if you honestly think about it. I began to scumhunt like a respectable towny, my 'walls of text' are useful and I keep them to a minimum for people like you and andrew.

A) You say that when someone claims 3rd party they should be lynched, and you have no reason to believe Zinger was gambiting, BUT his play in previous games has proven his willingness to take what seem like stupid risks

B) You say there is no reason for him to claim 3rd party as town, BUT what reason does he have to claim 3rd party if he is indeed 3rd party or scum?

[quote

A) Not really, considering what a huge risk this is in comparison and the fact that if he is scum/third party it would explain the difference between his town-risks.

B) So that he could later claim Town JK and come off as a stupid townie I guess. Not a smart gambit once again but it can't be missed.

Meran's post to me was like "Yeah, it's a scum tell, so what? I'm not scum.", which was like a snarky post which is understandable given how (if you reread) I was hounding him.

I didn't know Vifam name claimed, but yes, I confirm Captain Ben Sisko.

I find Silver scummy because
1) His head situation was crazy as fuck, but now with one flaking I don't know really what to think on that

2) He tunneled Pine for flaking hard, for no reason at all. In fact I find it odd that he found Pine hardflaking more suspicious than the fact that Vifam swapped out at L-2.

3) Similar to 2, most of his posting is in regards to Pine, and when he offers himself up over Zinger I knew that something was up. I suspect double scum with Silver being a not-so-useful scum role.

Also honestly, I think that we need to stop whining about the page count. It is what it is, we can't assume there will be replacements because that's just a little bit silly. Perhaps there need to be game restrictions on some people (eg. may only join 1 game at a time) so they don't flake. The content is all there, I know that when it's day three with over 150 pages(>implying I live) that I won't reread the whole game straight across, I'll go in knowing what I'm looking for and seeing if it's there.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

LOL 4 year old meta. I wondered how anyone could think it was 'usual' for me to defend newbies, since relentless persecution of antitown players (who tend to be newbies) is more what I'm known for. Incidentally, I stand by the assertion that voting no-lynch day one is not scummy, and attacking it IS. Here, it's more that MoI appeared to be trying to instigate a newbie meltdown (get emotional, omgus etc) which I didn't think was a particularly good way to read Rodion, but a very good way to get him lynched or forced to claim early on. FWIW, I don't think Rodion has covered himself in glory since the pressure died down.

So that's the little mystery of your identity solved, anyway. All I can say is thank God you're not Starbuck.

[PeregrineV]

@Nero- Well, I've been suspecting 3isF for about 25 pages now, but I was put off by the fact DavidX suspected him, and I liked DavidX's posting even less.

DavidX has since made better posts, but a look at 3isF indicates the same is not true for him.

I don't care if he is a "major wagon" for today. Why would I vote to lynch Zinger or Silver based on my opinions I've already given? I guess if they have or do change I would, but so far they haven't.

Instead, why don't you join me in voting 3isF? Together, we can make his lynch happen!!

@Killer- This makes me sad.

Hi I'm killerjester with strep throat. My life's been pretty full with ... not making out with pretty girls.

[Banshee]

@Junpei:

In fairness, I don't actually mind the walls of text in and of themselves. I'm guilty of the same thing with extensive PBPAs in some cases. I do note, however, that you have the highest post count of anyone in the game, and you're a replacement.

My objection was that there was a lot of discussion immediately prior to your entry into the game. You entered at post 306, said hi, claimed. From post 306 to post 357, you were responsible for twenty of the fifty-one posts, racking up approximately forty percent of all posts during that period. That seems excessive; I can understand it because you replaced in under pressure. But it did contribute to making the game longer without actually adding much to its clarity, imo. I do note that you have toned this down.

What would you consider a quickhammer at this point, anyway? That comment made me laugh