Open 319: Jungle Republic - Day 5: Calamity *GAME OVER*

[Ray Montano]

So...that's cool.

[Ray Montano]

What's cool? you're Mafia PM?

The talk about gender. I just like to pretend everyone's a sexless nonentity.

[Ray Montano]

Also, just so I know a bit about everyone:
1. What's your prior experience with Mafia at this site? At others Sites? With other players in this game?
2. If a Seer found a werewolf on the first night, would it be better to claim and get a werewolf lynched or not claim and hope they can find the other werewolf before they are killed?

1. I've been off the site for...six months? But I've been here since 2008, gone nowhere else, quite loyal to MafiaScum. I don't recall playing with anyone but one person in the past but I'm going back to see if that's accurate or not.
2. No.

And that Quicky Reads by DK was completely useless. Why post anything if you're just going to lump everybody in Null? Hell, why post anything at all like that on page 2?

[Ray Montano]

Let's even say its Day 3 (so 4 players are killed), and we have 1 werewolf, 2 mafia, and 4 towns left + the seer...is it really beneficial to off one mafia (and get an innocent town) to off yourself at night? Imo, no...

I thought the deal was the seer found a werewolf not a mafia?

[Ray Montano]

Sooo tomato, celery.

[Ray Montano]

...I don't follow. So what? He's an experienced player.

Let's think about it. Experienced player...players who aren't experienced...who would it benefit to vote the experienced player.

[Ray Montano]

It'd help the town, because inexperienced scum help the town, while an experience scum won't slip.

I like this guy.

[Ray Montano]

So you don't even care about this bandwagon forming on you?

What exactly am I supposed to care about?

[Ray Montano]

There's nothing care about until there's an argument to be had for or against.

[Ray Montano]

A fallacious statement is not an argument.

[Ray Montano]

My overall assessment would be no. However, it really all depends on the situation.

If the seer is close to being lynched on an irrational wagon then I wouldn't be opposed to claiming, and would understand that decision. The only other situation I would be okay with it is if the day is dragging on and on and on, if there are bandwagons flying in all different directions, and the player who the seer knows is a werewolf is directing a lot of traffic. I would support that decision to claim as well.

[Ray Montano]

Disagree. If day one drags on to almost three weeks and the deadline somehow gets extended due to replacements (like you should know can happen) then I would categorize that as unproductive and dragging on. Especially if the werewolf is a vocal leader who people seem to be clinging to. Outing that werewolf and drawing connections based on who the wolf was directing seems productive enough to support. To me at least. I'm not one to push the seer to do something so if the seer decided to out himself in that scenario I'd 100% back them.

[Ray Montano]

If votes are flip-flopping, and the town lynched a townie day one and another townie ate it during night, and the seer cannot get a plausible wagon on the wolf then I'd say about 60-70% through the deadline.

[Ray Montano]

I'd wait a bit long, but that's more a preference than anything...I still think it limits how much the seer (as in the only town power roll) helps us.

I think waiting 60-70% is reasonable. Its given an ample amount of time for discussion and leaves room for the town to dissect what the seer has to say and squeeze some last little morsels from the wolf.

[Ray Montano]

Well I wouldn't think we'd need those full five days in that scenario. But if everyone was smart it'd still take a full real life day or so to end the game day.

[Ray Montano]

Blegh theory argument.

what virtue does the wagon have beyond it?

Fluff posting. 15 posts, 0 content.

15 "fluff" posts > 2 fluff posts IMNSHO

[Ray Montano]

Sooo you're accusing someone of cheating?

[Ray Montano]

Sooo you're accusing someone of cheating?

no

If they're the same person using two different usernames in the same game then they're cheating. Why would you say that if you don't believe it?

[Ray Montano]

Do you frequently sling accusations that you don't believe in?

[Ray Montano]

12. Why do you see everyone as a sexless non-entity, that is a false statement, ya' know?
I don't. but I do think women should be in the kitchen (sorry...last one -seriously this time)

Is DK aware that I'm the one that made that statement? And HEY! That was my question.

1. Do you frequently sling accusations that you don't believe in?

But seriously, answer that.

[Ray Montano]

The questions were originally for you Ray, but i decided to answer them to try to get him to answer the questions lol.

Were they? I'm completely missing where they were directed at me.

[Ray Montano]

Pretty sure they were directed at Sky. Or as DK puts it "Sly".

[Ray Montano]

I'm not advocating a DK lynch right now, but I've got to say if someone had hammered I wouldn't have been too upset to see DK leave. I'm not a fan of players who throw pity parties for themselves when they're on the chopping block. I would, however, have been upset the day ended so early. So next time anyone's on the chopping block (myself included) it'd be awesome to have real discussions instead of "DON'T FUCKING HAMMER ME IF YOU WANT A MISLYNCH". Like...really...

[Ray Montano]

real discussions

I don't care. Ask questions, argue it out, anything but whining about being lynched.

[Ray Montano]

Ray should still be lynched, unless someone can quote me a post where he is actually scumhunting. He's an experienced player and he doesn't seem to know how to scumhunt - that doesn't worry anyone else? It worries the everlovin' frell out of me.

Who says I've ever been good at scumhunting? Why are you playing this game based off so much supposed meta?

[Ray Montano]

I just don't understand why you're making generalized assumptions on how players should be playing based on their experience level. That doesn't make any sense. You're doing it with both myself and DK.

And if you want to find completed scum games of me you can go do the research and figure it out yourself.

[Ray Montano]

You I have no meta of, but I have a strong feeling about the way you are playing. I could call it a "gut" case if you don't like the "experience" case, but I'm trying to explain where the "gut" comes from insteand of just going "I am awesome, sheep me" which works - but usually only with people that have played with me enough before to know how accurate my reads on gut are.

How far along do you usually go before you quit relying on gut reads to assess a player's alignment?

[Ray Montano]

There's no debate, and I don't need to go read you, not relevant to this game. You can use whatever method you want. I just at least know how seriously to take you now.

[Ray Montano]

Very interested as to why, in 27 posts Ray has yet to put his vote anywhere, seems overly cautious to me and could be scum trying not to draw attention to themselves.

I only vote to lynch.

@DK - I'm dead serious about Ray being scum. I've presented a case, he got nervous about it and settled for trying to discredit me via playstyle issues rather than actually explaining how I was inherently wrong and he *was* scumhunting. Also, ignored very reasonable offer by me to provide meta to ease off my case, as though trying to bluster through it. Classic looking scum bust to my mind, he needs rope.

Don't be silly Thor. Your case really wasn't a case so there's nothing real for me to be answering to. And there's no way you're getting meta on me. You've done nothing to show you're a credible player deserving of it.

@DK I really don't have much to respond to concerning your wall of content (or whatever) but I do find it interesting that you gave me a high "rating" (which I'm not really sure was a necessary system) and found me "leaning-town" and "pro-town" and yet are voting me over Thor who you gave a lower rating, found "leaning-scum" and "obv scum". I find it odd that you're bending to the will of whoever shouts the loudest. That to me does not seem like play of a strong town player. If you're not scum, which I don't really think you are, you are certainly a weak town player. And that kind of sucks.

I think its about time I run through my scum reads, as I think its time to start seriously looking at lynching someone.

TheFool
Fool started off the game flaky and hoppy and basically just riding on everyone else’s coattails to pass by without notice. Both his vote on me and his vote on DK are shoddily explained and provide nothing for anyone to start a line of discussion. Fool isn’t concerned about providing the town original content to be discussed. Instead he’s only concerned with piggybacking louder players’ opinions and flying under the radar. It’d be smart scum play.

Sky
Playing too neutrally for my liking. Even with his voting its softened with claiming that he doesn’t want to see DK lynched just yet. Not stepping on too many peoples’ toes and just the overall lukewarm feel of his posting raises red flags for me. It also would be smart scum play (but really, much smarter than Fool’s).

CMPunk
I don’t like Punk advocating someone hammering DK so early in the game. Her affirmation that DK IS scum doesn’t sit right with me also. A lot of her play is similar to Fool. They both raise my attention for basically the same reason. Punk spends a considerably less amount of time explaining herself though.

DonJosh
DJ is sucking...but I would expect that from him. Not really a scum read I just really wanted to say that.

Vote: CMPunk

For Punk to be so sure in her words with little reasoning to back it up and a lack of concern for promoting discussion oozes slime to me. I have the highest faith that she is scum amidst my reads. I would most support a Punk or Fool wagon but since Fool is louder I'd rather lynch Punk.

[Ray Montano]

I am voting you for never placing a vote on Thor after all the interactions.

To be honest that's a really stupid reason for voting me. I don't read Thor as scum, therefore I'm not voting him. If I read Thor as scum then I would be voting him. It may be your play to OMGUS players who suspect you but its not mine.

@Thor You have no case to argue because your case is not correct. Yeah I do think you're a terrible player, but as of right now I don't think you're scum. Terrible player =/= scum. Hence why I never voted for DK. And this:

At least you admit you haven't scumhunted at all thus far

Is not true.

[Ray Montano]

I think its about time I run through my scum reads, as I think its time to start seriously looking at lynching someone.

This doesn't sound like you're saying you've been doing this all along - so you admit you haven't been voting, admit you haven't been going through your scumreads, and admit up till now you had no desire to see someone lynched.

Running through scum reads means sharing with the game my reads and until recently I really haven't thought the game progressed enough to be anywhere near ending D1 because I didn't think much had happened yet...which I'll stand by. As for evidence of scumhunting go read yourself. Its not that difficult.

Are you new to MS or something or are you an Alt?

alt. And I've been saying you suck since early on.

And that Quicky Reads by DK was completely useless. Why post anything if you're just going to lump everybody in Null? Hell, why post anything at all like that on page 2?

[Ray Montano]

Okay then this isn't my issue.

[Ray Montano]

I have no interest in doing such thing.

[Ray Montano]

I'm dunzo spamming the thread with you. Talk about something important...or real for that matter and then we can have a discussion.

[Ray Montano]

His reads make no sense.

How so? You haven't expressed any issues with my reads yet. All you've been focused so far is yourself and nothing that I've said about players.

[Ray Montano]

Wooosh - no quick lynch? ::sadface::

Okay, let's lay out some reactions to that wagon.

Tyhess is probably town.
The Fool never answered the 'deeper' reasons to vote Ray, did he? He should really answer that - like - na0w!
Fighting Shadows is probably town.
DK is...DK. I could get behind a policy lynch there but I think we could probably do better - Werewolves should totally kill him though, he gets crazy effective at scumhunting starting Day 3.
Could someone explain to me why it was scummy that DK called two players as having a similar playstyle? That (and question derpiness) seems to be the case on him. I'm down with the derpiness but the other thing...whuh? Explain pl0x, I'm ready to sheep onto that in a second once I know why it's scummy.

Ray should still be lynched, unless someone can quote me a post where he is actually scumhunting. He's an experienced player and he doesn't seem to know how to scumhunt - that doesn't worry anyone else? It worries the everlovin' frell out of me.

Mainly because of this post right here. You fleshing out your reactions to the wagon gave me good vibes from you. Whether you actually believe I'm scum...meh. I've yet to determine that. Plus I like your questioning of other players, it gives me pro-town vibes. Town mistakenly target town quite frequently, it happens.

[Ray Montano]

Correct. Never do either of those things, probably never will.

[Ray Montano]

I would also like to see Ray's response to this post to see if he himself regards it as legit.

Nah. Just more silliness.

[Ray Montano]

@RayM and FS:
What are your guys thoughts on TheFool? Cuz my reads on CMPunk and TheFool are very similar.

Uh. Really?

[Ray Montano]

Good reason!

[Ray Montano]

1. No hesitancy.
2. I only vote TO lynch, not on a lynch. There's a big difference.
3. Since when are you a sure thing wagon?

[Ray Montano]

Answer the question

How about you go read the thread. I listed my reads on both of them. In the same post. They're whole paragraphs.

[Ray Montano]

Thor has no defense because he wasn't being attacked. I'm not going to credit a non-sustainable offense such as "you don't scumhunt". Its the oldest crap offense in the book other than OMGUS.

[Ray Montano]

Thor there really is no offense, hence nothing to discredit.

[Ray Montano]

I'm looking at at CMPunk though. His reasoning for his votes is hardly there, and when they are, they are basic. Like his vote on DK. It just seemed unoriginal to vote him as he joined a wagon he was unsure of. I think everyone who joined the first Montano wagon was unsure of it. He unvoted DK for no reason and then jumped on Montano's. I need more evidence from you.

Vote: CMPunk

I think Punk thought she was going to be able to slide her way through D1 and overreacted when someone started pointing fingers at her. I think she's trying to compensate that know by letting others do her arguing for her and get some attention on other players.

Thor and DK are my scumreads right now.

The only town read is

CM Punk

. Don't mean to sound sexist, but she has a similar post style to many female Mafia newbies I've seen when playing. You know. Spunky, headstrong, but doesn't say too much unless the thread is really heated.

Plus her feud with Triple H has been pretty cool so far. Too bad Raw's ratings still suck.

But Punk doesn't speak up when the heat isn't revolved around her. There have been heated moments between other players and she makes sure to steer hell clear of it. Also, this week's Raw was awesome.

I think Thor's reacting really poorly to the suspicion on him from blind. It doesn't sit well with the read I had on him earlier. I'd also like for DK to grow a brain and contribute something original instead of piggybacking on everyone else's cases in this game.

[Ray Montano]

For the record, I did say I wasn't going to give my alts but not in as firm of terms as blind would suggest. However, I did firmly state that I wasn't going to give my alts in the only other game on this account if you want to look that up. Its consistent with my play. Even on my other alts I did not give links between them.

Note: Don't be an ass Thor. I've made it very clear how many positioning on players has changed. If I thought you were scum I would be campaigning against you. My position on you switched from firmly believing you're town to slightly less so. Don't play the fucking victim.

[Ray Montano]

Well, blindfaeth's off my heel list.

*Sorry totally not game related* I'd just like to say I'm really pleased with the use of pro wrestling terms.

[Ray Montano]

Link to this? I only have the one conversation from you I can find and all you do is admit this account is an alt.

I really don't think he looked up your other games to find this info. Are you claiming this?

lol That is the most random accusation I've ever heard. Claiming faith looked up my other games? Like where the hell do you even come up with that?

Toy Story Mafia, in a conversation with Nanook. ISO it.

So are you agreeing the timing looks suspect from my angle to the point I could play the victim? Between the last time you called me town, and the time this wagon sprang up did you clarify a shift - because your post makes it sound like the shift already happened. What happened before the wagon to make the shift?

Not suspect. I think you overreacting to any suspicion on you was scummy. And that's exactly what changed my opinion on you. Your posting in response to blind.

*I think I pre-inned but not sure. I'll have to check up on that*

[Ray Montano]

FTR: DJ I answered first.

[Ray Montano]

FTR: DJ I answered first.

lolwut

And look right above blind's post...I answered Thor's issues before blind.

[Ray Montano]

Well I've just responded. Catching up now.

[Ray Montano]

Vote stays on Ray for now. Still not convinced he's aligned with the town.

You realize your vote on me is because you don't agree with the defensive strategy I've employed against Thor...and that's credible enough to convince you I'm not town-aligned? Can you explain how that makes sense?

@Ray - I have no idea what you're even coming at me with there, but am pretty sure you misunderstood what I was saying - I'll restate;

1. Faeth "knows" you claimed an alt and a desire not to provide game info - thus excusing your refusal to help meta yourself.
2. You say it exists.
3. I deny this exists in thread and desire him to show it to me due to a belief it showed up in a scum QT. I ask you if you think he metaed you to be aware of the quote.
4. He provides a quote from Fighting Shadow with a 'lol wrong player' and also defends himself because 'he couldn't be talking in the scum QT right now. So...in other words he does a 50% good defense and a 50% please hang me defense. Par for the course.
5. You accuse me of believing the meta doesn't exist in another game and show me it does, answering nothing I asked and proving me wrong of a stance I never took.

That's my understanding of the flow there.

Whatever your understanding is...doesn't make any sense. Your "belief" is half-assed, you don't truly believe I've stated anything about an alt in a QT or whatever you're trying to claim. Its straight up bull. Evidenced by the fact you drop this later while stating your case on me.

I think he is just trying to keep his cool and avoid the hammer.

Wrong. Thor started his attack on me from the beginning and just because he's wrong doesn't mean he's scum. I've explained why I've believed he's town and I've also explained what I've seen from him that I believe is scummy. Just because I'm not OMGUSing doesn't mean I'm trying to avoid a hammer. It means I'm thinking past myself.

@Ray - preemptive - thoughts on Faeth's vote move?

I think its kind of a way of pandering himself to you, which doesn't sit right with me. If blind were scum and he believed you to be town it would make a lot of sense. Scum generally tend to make a sort of ally of themselves to a town player who they believe to be strong and have great sway in the town's opinion. I think he finds himself coming off a little in the worst in your guys' exchange and needs to find a way to find himself in your good favor.

In my two posts I comment on the state of the game, express suspicion of a player, and follow it up with explanation and a vote. The first point at which I have any idea what Ray thinks about anyone is iso 28, 5 days into the game. And from there on out he largely ignores his three scum-reads anyway, focusing instead on specifically not defending himself.

Don't even pretend like you actually did anything in those two posts. You provided nothing for the rest of the town to discuss. Just because you vote and offer an "explanation" means nothing. Stating "Fluff posting" is nothing to help the town with and it is not pro-town to provide a vote without reasoning the town can discuss. I provided my scum reads, gave ample reasoning as to why they're my reads, and have commented on what's being talked about in the town. When you stated your reads you provided nothing useful. And just because you provide absolutely nothing to discuss does NOT mean I'm ignoring you.

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? HOW DO I PIGGYBACK?

READ POST #214, I POSTED THE MOST BIGGEST READS EVER. LEARN UR PLACE NEWB.

1. Unless you're some sort of skilled alt you better watch yourself.
2. I dare you to deny any of this is piggybacking.

The obvious wagon of win I have - you should join it.
The evidence is in my post above.

Interesting, let's see where being opportunistic takes me.

Unvote
Vote Ray Montano

Why did you Unvote?

For CMPunk's reasoning, a wagon that I had not understood.

Unvote
Vote Ray

Thor you are serious about Ray being scum?

Also since I voted Ray, will be SUPER MEGA AWESOME READS get more attention?

Unvote
Vote TheFool

Whispers has more of a case than Thor atm, and Fool was on my suspects list already.

I don't want to seem like voting hopping, but

Unvote; Vote Thor

Whispers get on his wagon, it doesn't seem like the guy you're voting will be lynched, I hope he is replaced out seemingly since he is inactive, although I still do hold my suspicious via TheFool.

Thor seems like the best lynch for today, and I will do everything in my case to champion for it.

...

Between TheFool and whispers? TheFool. Why do you find CMPunk to be not only not scum, but town?

Unless CMPunk was out the door for his V/LA, it irks me that he didn't respond to his votes.

There's a lot of text I still have to read. This game went nuts in a period of 24 hours. And DK has started up again....

Great way of popping in, contributing absolutely nothing, and avoid marking attention to yourself.

if Ray gets mis-lynched, than beware, I will scold you for it, so if you dare, go ahead and try and make it happen.

If I get mislynched how anti-town does Thor look, in your opinion?

Thor if Ray happens to be lynched and flips Town, do you think you would deserve the blame?

*Quoting this just cause its not an answer* Blame aside, who is the most anti-town player because of it?

Alright here goes. I will try my best to explain what did not sit well with me. Keep in mind that I think/agree that the majority of BB's thoughts/ideas etc are pro-town, it is just a creeping feeling that he is trying too hard to appear noble/townie or whatever.

This is a great way to attack someone while trying to attract as little backlash as possible.

Still waiting to hear from whisper.... did Ray disappear too?

Volleyball tournament, Cedar Point, then Six Flags.

Other than the blame Ray deserves, yes, the blame would be mine.
If he flips scum does that make me obv. town, awesome, and do you get all the blame? (because you will - from me anyway )

In case I do get lynched, don't be stupid tomorrow. YOU could probably garner a lot from the interactions of the players who have been advocated my lynch and defended against it. If you really are a good player you could catch scum off it. Otherwise...you're a sucky town player...or you're scum.

[Ray Montano]

Ray, did you really switch your read on Thor to null? Based on what?

For that matter, what originally made you think he was town?

My read on Thor has not changed from town to null. I'd like for you to go point out where it did please. I did point out this VVV

Okie dokie. It is interesting, Thor is one of those players that seem more active than they actually are. Possibly because he's mentioned so much? Idk

Possibly because I drive discussion and make statements that obligate people to respond to them - aka. scumhunting.
Are you accusing me of being nonactive here?

Blindfaeth can go into the scum list now.
OMGUS!
Also, still want Ray lynched, but now actually have someone I would get off Ray to lynch as well.

As reacting poorly. I think Thor overreacted here to blind's post and it did look scummy to me. Before the weekend I thought he looked worse in the back and forth and it changed my position from him being town to opening up the possibility he's scum. But as the conversation progressed it reaffirmed my town read on him.

Thor's play reminds me of myself two years ago in large games where I was town. When I found a player who I thought to be scum I commented on others but did somewhat tunnel on my scum read. I think Thor has done a really crappy job with the case on me (which I have stated several times) but I think he's just misguided town. Him fishing for reactions off the wagon on me was great.

Well...actually I "drop it" because my issue there is part of my case on Faeth, so actually has nothing to do with whether you are scummy or not except insomuch as I think Faeth is a possible partner.

Well that is a problem though because if I do get mislynched that entire part of your case on blind is squashed.

You still find whatever lurker you're voting for more scummy though?

That's actually a good question because I'm not sure. I want to say yes because I do believe in everything I've said about Punk and I'm always wondering if blind's tendency to soften up to the players he's attacking is play style or not. But on the other hand I never believe play style is an excuse. If blind is deliberately softening up and blind is town then I think its real anti-town because it provides less of an opportunity for a player to slip to react irrationally. I'm a little bit torn but I do want to wait until Punk comes back from V/LA and says something. That will really decide whether to attack fully on Punk or blind.

My play has always been to force a wagon and reactions Day 1 and to scumhunt off them Day 2. I really don't see anything different in your Day 1 lurker hunt as far as brilliance goes, so I'm not quite sure where you think I'm failing - and I've certainly left multiple avenues open to you to prove me wrong and get me off your back. I don't know if you thought cool and distanced was going to do that for you, but clearly that just sets me off more. Maybe if you went back now and answerd some of the questions not worth interesting you could get me to turn the entire wagon around onto Sky or Faeth - y'never know.

And I think you've been doing an okay job with creating reactions. I just don't see you pressuring players who hop on mindlessly enough to really warrant respect from me at this point and faith you'll pressure them tomorrow. "Cool and distanced" isn't quite how I would describe my play style. As town, unconcerned with pressure is more like it. But let's give this another shot. Give me a couple of questions you want me to directly answer and I'll see how I can help.

As for turning a wagon onto Sky or blind I think both are great options.

[Ray Montano]

Not sure I follow why I would want backlash?

What do you have to lose from it?

& FWIW this post confirms your opinion of Thor had changed. Because you admit it (AND you don't disagree with this point until now...)

And I did say my opinion changed from firmly believing he was town to not so much. Is that not an opinion change?

Both Sky and I are not "great options" because I am civvie.

1. Why is Sky even mentioned in that section.
2. If that's your argument then what makes me a better option? Because I can sit here and argue the same thing.