Open 324 - Ninja Mafia (End. No Drama, please!)

[Hikari Link]

And so it begins.

Please read my signature.

I don't really care for RVS, but I figure I might as well give it a try, so
VOTE: Super Mario
Because it's all about the Sega Genesis.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: Hiraki Link Likes SEGA, yet is LINK.. idk if I can trust this guy

Objection! There's no player in this game called Hiraki Link.

Oh, and I never played through a Zelda game that was released before Ocarina of Time. I couldn't care less about the fucking SNES. Nor do I care about any console that Sega made past the Genesis.

You don't care for RVS? May I ask why, and why you're randomly voting now?

Nobody has any numbers in their name, so I'll

Vote: Hikari Link

Might as well.

The reason I don't care for RVS is because I don't really see it as a particularly telling of anything. But I'm voting, because even though it seems to have no real effect, somehow it leads to legitimate discussion every time. Like magnets, I can't figure out how the fuck this works, but apparently it does, so I figured might as well try it out.

[Hikari Link]

Ocarina of time is one of the worse zelda games, FACT! Play LINK TO THE PAST, see yourself in sexy 8bit

Nolynching today wouldn't be a bad idea, but eh...

UNVOTE: Super Mario, VOTE: hiplop

I'm not gonna say that Link to the Past wasn't a great game, because it probably was, but saying OoT is bad is just unforgivable.

[Hikari Link]

4 questions:

Who are you?

Hikari Link, but just call me Link.

Why do you play mafia?

Because it's fucking fun to pick apart arguments and look for holes in them.

Why are you not scum?

Because I wasn't chosen as scum.

What will you be known for this game?

My long wall posts, I imagine.

Oh, and hi. RVS is pointless and never gives me the reads I look specifically for.

Just one question for all of you:

1.

Is lurking (not active lurking, lurking as in "not talking a lot") a null tell or a scum tell?

I'd say generally null in itself, but in conjunction with other tells, it can be scummy.

[Hikari Link]

How the hell do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

I'll tell you once RVS is completely done.

That had best not be an empty promise. I'm going to hold you to it.

That shouldn't concern you yet. Care to answer my earlier question?

Why not?

I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.

Link is town.

Bye.

I'd like an explanation. I'm particularly watchful for buddying these days after a recent game.

[Hikari Link]

that didn't make me feel any better about you Ray.

That's not my issue.

I don't understand why cobbler needs to wait for RVS to be over. Just make it over and answer the question.

It could be that he's looking for a tell that only shows up in RVS. Be patient. If he doesn't answer when RVS is done, then by all means, hound him all you want. I'll be right there next to you.

[Hikari Link]

Link is town for his answers to my questions.

PM is scum for the same thing.

Votes on him. Now.

How do you objectify the difference between scumtells and towntells? I'm not sure how you think you can read my alignment. Link's response to "why are you not scum" was

Because I wasn't chosen as scum.

Cool. My response to the same question was:

Because I am sided with the town.

There's almost no difference between these two statements aside from the fact that the wording is different. However, one is town and one is scum. The same goes for all of the questions asked. I would like you to elaborate deeper on these reads.

^This.

What in particular do you find off about his answers that you don't see in any other persons answers? The opposite for me. What makes my answers more town than those of everybody else?

[Hikari Link]

Repeat the question Ray?

That wasn't answer that solidified your lynch for me PM

Then what was? I see where your argument is coming from, but I don't really see it as lynch-worthy. It's a bit early in the day to be calling for a lynch, isn't it? If you've got more to add, lay your cards out, because right now this all seems rather premature and could be an attempt to get us to end the day before we can get some really solid reads.

KC's town. I have a couple o' theories as to what pinged yo' scumdar. Mind telling me exactly what it was?

How the hell do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

Never experienced lurker scum. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?

That shouldn't concern you yet. Care to answer my earlier question?

Why do you play mafia?

Competitive fun

Why are you not scum?

Because I am sided with the town.

What will you be known for this game?

Agonizingly bad attempts at scumhunting

To all. Tell me what is the tone of these posts?

better: Iso PM Just tell me where he isn't trying to be "apart of the game" and trying to "Move the game."

Go ahead.

I'll get right on that.

[Hikari Link]

9 to lynch, Link. I think with the pace we are going we are bound to find more scum.

Yeah, I realize that the number is very high, but even so, I've seen some early bandwagons get out of control before. Still, pressure is good. I'll ISO matt and if I come away from that with a scummy vibe on him, I will vote.

The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia. I'm actually not sure what the hell he's picking up on with my tone, since my first post was a direct attack on a random player with no RVS (THAT IS CERTAINLY TRYING TO FIT IN) and my tone stays essentially the same no matter what alignment I am.

There is nothing wrong with my responses to those questions. If you think my personality is naturally scummy, that's cool. But it's not and your "methods" are impossible to retort because I don't know what you see.

A fair point that will be noted when I ISO you.

[Hikari Link]

KC's town. I have a couple o' theories as to what pinged yo' scumdar. Mind telling me exactly what it was?

How the hell do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

This seems like a genuinely town statement.

Oh, and hi. RVS is pointless and never gives me the reads I look specifically for.

Just one question for all of you:

1.

Is lurking (not active lurking, lurking as in "not talking a lot") a null tell or a scum tell?

Already expressed my thoughts on this.

Never experienced lurker scum. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?

That shouldn't concern you yet. Care to answer my earlier question?

Why do you play mafia?

Competitive fun

Why are you not scum?

Because I am sided with the town.

What will you be known for this game?

Agonizingly bad attempts at scumhunting

I sort of see your problem with #4. I mean, first of all, he seems to be basically asking us to give him a free pass on poor play. That's mildly suspicious. Still not seeing the problem with #3 though. Different people word things differently.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Projectmatt

Why?

I'll tell you once RVS is completely done.

Good. I expect an answer.

Why not?

Because if I told you what I was specifically attempting by asking that question it would ruin the purpose of the question.

I personally want to know what you were going for on that last question, matt. Because it would appear to be different from what I said, which is entirely independent from whether or not the purpose of the question is known.

I'm not sure about you matt. Seems like a little more pressure could do you well.
UNVOTE: ,VOTE: projectmatt

Did you seriously just read the sentence "The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia." and shrink it down to "I am sided with the mafia." in order to make your vote look more justifiable so you don't look like a sheep saying "KDCA makes a good point!"

Vote: Cobble

A good point. What the fuck was that, Cobblerfone?

[Hikari Link]

I wanted everybody to answer the question before you made me explain it.

Something like that is to, first of all collect all of the opinions and then see what comes of it later. In an 18 player game, there are bound to be lurkers, and if a scum is going for the easy target for lurking when they previously said lurking isn't a scumtell, it's important. That question works. You can also gather reads from it simply by the responses.

Yeah, that's what said earlier. And everybody should still answer the question. But it really doesn't make sense why you'd need to hide the reasoning. I'm pretty sure anybody who said lurking in itself is a scumtell is gonna be suspected anyway, because that's complete bs.

[Hikari Link]

Because if I say "I want to catch scum in a contradiction later in the game" what would the scum do? They would specifically attempt to avoid making that contradiction. A scum who doesn't fully know what the purpose of the question is will get screwed over later if they say lurking isn't a scumtell to sound pro-town.

I could see that in a newbie game, but it seems less likely to work here. Don't worry though, I'm sure that there will be plenty of inconsistencies for us to find. By making people commit to answers, there is always the opportunity to discover them.

[Hikari Link]

A good point. What was that, Cobblerfone?

Added mind-pressure, obviously.

Really? Cause it just seems like some wacky reasoning to me.

Getting MAD town reads pouring out of Project matt. Do NOT want.

Explain.

[Hikari Link]

What the fuck happened here? For some reason while I was asleep, I stopped getting notifications. That is certainly vexing. Well, time to catch up.

[Hikari Link]

Responding as I go, so some responses may end up outdated. I'll try to go back and correct for changes in the situation or if my questions become answered, but I may miss something.

@Post #84:What part of any interaction with matt was buddying? When someone makes a point I agree with, I voice my agreement. Gonna ISO Ray now to see if what you are saying hold up too.

Also, it's true that town can be inconsistent too but the key difference is the nature of the inconsistency. As you say, inconsistency =/= auto-scum, but very rarely is there a single scumtell that guarantees scum, so that's sort of a pointless statement.

so you think everyone is town besides you and cobbler? cool

How did you work that shit out?

BBmolla

- You come in, with 2 full pages already down. Answer some RQS that was buried way down on page 2, meaning you obviously at least MILDLY read through the game. Complain saying the game is going fast (Read: lots of content), but tell us you don't have any thoughts yet? This yells lurky mc lurkalot to me. "Hey guys, let me answer the RQS that I obviously noticed meaning I HAVE read the thread, then say I have no thought on the thread so far, due to there being to much info in the thread." -goes back to his little hole. Not even an RVS to try to see how people react to a vote from you?
null-scum

Glad I wasn't ignored, was going to see how long till someone would mention my one post.

I don't have any thoughts as of writing this sentence. I'm rereading. D1 discussions are rather nonsensical until someone slips up. And then 90% of the time it's a ML anyway.
I don't like to participate in RVS, I think it's bogus.
I answer questions because I prefer them to random votes, although all in all I don't think responses to questions are all that different regardless of alignment.

PM is probably scum. The degree of seriousness was immediate and I find this tends to come off of scum more than townmembers. I've never played anything with him, so I'd need to compare his "tone" to others games. Eye on him. Not completely sure.

KCDA seems town for now. Town points for the early FoSes, actively calling people out like that without fear generally is town.

Hip gives no reasons for his "town reads". Nothing else really of interest yet, although he's pleasant and gives off a bit of a townie feel.

Maru is probably town. For the analysis. Subject to change.

Link is probtown. Responses seem legit.

Cobbler reads town to me.

Ray may seem anti town, but I'm pretty sure he always gives off that feel, having played a game with him. Still, worth to keep an eye on.

Don is null.

Honestly just waiting for this phase to end. I'll throw up a vote when I see fit.

Gonna have to disagree on the hiplop point, because I don't trust people with no reasoning behind their posts. Not sure I approve of the claim that your lurking was reaction fishing, but the rest of your post reads fairly town. Any suspicions so far now?

@Maruchan: Answer to question #4 is about on par in terms of scumminess with projectmatt. In general you seem town, but this kind of sticks out. Claiming that you are going to look scummy later doesn't mean your scumminess will get a free pass.

What are you timezones?

PDT, which from my understanding is GMT-7.

~~~~Hikari Link, why do you not like to be called "Hikari"?

Here's a quote from me explaining why.

Short answer? Because Hikari by itself is a girl's name. Either that or a meaningless and contextless adjective.

It would be like calling projectmatt "project" or Super Mario "Super".

Post 42 - Linky

You mentioned that you are looking more carefully into buddying due to a game. Can you tell us more about that game?

This game right here. Nachomamma8 was basically calling me town from the start and even went through the trouble of stating various instances where I showed my townieness. The only thing is, turns out he was scum, so he really knew I was own anyway. As a result, I now keep an eye out for people trying to get on my good side by declaring me town.

Not seeing the case against Matty. Something about him appearing friendly and not moving the game forward. If you get a friendly tone from his posts, then I'm Devil-Tomie this game based upon my first 2 posts here. And not moving the game forward? He at least asked questions. There were players joking around.
There was also the bit about wording. Apparently, it's scummier to mention that you side with the town than that you aren't with the scum. I disagree. It's the way players word it. It depends on the player, not on his allignment. I wrote a complete story there, because that's who I am.
The only bit I agree on is his 'excuse' of the playstyle. But this whole case has been made into an elephant, while it's actually a dog. Which is why the attackers worry me more.

I agree that it is a bit excessive, but it's been good pressure on him and ti's shown us a few things about those on the wagon. Cobblerfone has definitely come off looking worse for the wear and projectmatt has maintained his composure and nicely worked on countering most arguments against him.

Post 84 - MaruMaru

Puhlease. There's so much wrong with this post.
The most notable things:
-Saying that Spotty's case against Matty is weak, yet using it against Matty.
-Your hypocricy. You mentioned against Matty how scummy it is to mention that his playstyle looks scummy. But when you answer the questions, how do you call yourself?
-...

Some questions as well:
-Why 'warn' Spotty that you'll attack him if he changes his case if Matty gets close to lynching?
-What did you think of Cobbly's vote against Matty? You mentioned that scum tend to keep their vote until an easy target shows up. Do you think that this could be the case with Cobbly's vote? Why or why not?
-Why is Cobbly 'null-town'? Because I don't see anything in your analysis that could hint at you seeing him as town. Depending on the answer to this question, argument 3 might be revealed. Hint: It has to do with Loppy's post, which he worded wrong.

Post 103 - MaruMaru
And then comes the next thing, in your big analysis post, you accused multiple players. One of the attacks was based upon a player mentioning he looks scummy as his playstyle. JJ did so to and you didn't mention it. Then next is Desc, who has read the game, but didn't mention anything of content. You used that in your analysis post as well to attack some players. And now, Desc is left alone with just 'a friendly advice'. It only makes your big post look more fake to me.

I reserve my comments until Maruchan responds.

With that said,

Vote MaruMaru

Cobbler is the other player who has a high place on my list of scummy players.
Linky, Loppy and Matty are town.

Please explain these reads.

I'm fairly satisfied with matt's last 3 posts.
UNVOTE: projectmatt
I've been working on this catch up for a while and I'm a bit tired, so I'm going to take a break, come back and reread later with my reads on everybody so far.

[Hikari Link]

Sorry it took me so long, I was going to do it yesterday, but I was pretty tired and knew I wouldn't be able to focus for the amount of time it would take me to reread everyone and try to catch anything new.

BBmolla

: Hasn't said much since I last commented on him.

What changed that made you think you misread the entire town?

Reserving judgment until you answer this and post the new reads.

cavjj

: I dislike that he apparently thinks trying to scumhunt early is a scumtell. Also seems a bit hypocritical to give scum points for the vague answer Ray gave when his answer wasn't much better. You will be watched closely.

Cobblefone

: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for

that

reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.

VOTE: Cobblerfone

Descent

: First thing is RVS when we're already out of RVS? Followed by an unvote after someone points this out? Even though his vote was already on someone who is apparently his top suspect. Not too sure about that... Also, admonishing Maruchan for reading the game. Sure, 80 posts isn't a lot, but it's enough to at least get some preliminary reads. I'll wait for some more content from you, but I've got my eye on you. Also, RQS answers, please.

DonJosh

: Don't like #4 answer. I agree that instinct should play a part in reads, but building a case on just that is pretty bad. That's for scum who can't come up with actual evidence. Also, kinda early for teamhunting, no? Teamhunting is really bad, because if one flips town, suspicion can come away from the other, which may be scum. I've literally seen this happen. On the flip-side, if one flips scum, it could lead to a quick-lynch of the other, who is actually town. This type of thinking can be horribly dangerous.

FOS

: DonJosh

hiplop

: I think he's town, mostly combination of gut and meta, but he should explain himself more in general when he posts. Could use some scum reads from him too.

Kcdaspot

: I think I understand his early vote on Cobblerfone, but I don't agree with it. Wagoning early on, especially in a big game can end RVS, since it can get a reaction from the wagonee. Other than that, comng on strong can be good, but he seems to be pushing for actual lynches. It seems pretty unlikely that he actually believes that these wagons he's trying to start are going to go anywhere, yet he keeps doing it. I have a theory on this, but I'll let him explain it himself, though I imagine it will be a while before he does. If it's not what I think though, he'll probably become a top suspect for me.

Maruchan

: I think in general that he is town, but please look at the end here at the last paragraph. Town shoouldn't want town lynched over scum. You should always vote your strongest sum read for as long as is practical. But I will admit I understand the sentiment, n matter how bad the reasoning is.

projectmatt

: Done almost nothing since I last posted about him except for a pretty good case on Cobblerfone. Still looking town in my book.

Quilford

: Comes in, jumps on the Cobblerfone wagon, then says nothing except that "he's probably scum". This man needs to do a few things.
1. Post reasoning.
2. Post more reads.
3. Add to the conversation.
4. Answer RQS.

He's said and done almost nothing so far. Null as hell.

Ray Montano

: It just kind of seems like he doesn't give a fuck. After checking his meta briefly, he doesn't seem to be playing that much differently, but he's still not being very helpful. Null for now.

Scumhunter

: From what I hear of him, his meta is lurking, then posting his reads, but my problem with that it doesn't give

us

a chance to read him. Scumhunter, I'm going to have to ask you for some actual content as soon as possible so that we can actually read you. I for one am not just going to take it on good faith that you are town.

Tomie Uzumaki

: Still waiting for those read explanations from her. Her posts read town. More content would be nice.

zMuffinMan

: Needs to post more. Keeps saying he'll catch up "tomorrow" and then doesn't. Null for now. Please answer RQS questions.

Everyone else hasn't posted yet, so I can't really say anything about them, can I? As soon as they get in though,

they need to post

. We need reads, votes, answers to RQS.


For your convenience, my reads on the town to scum axis:

Town
Maruchan
projectmatt
Tomie Uzumaki
hiplop
Kcdaspot
BBmolla
Ray Montano
zMuffinMan
Quilford

Everyone who hasn't posted

Scumhunter
Descent
cavjj
Don Josh
Cobblerfone
Scum

[Hikari Link]

I know, I know, I left out Maruchan. It's because she's completely null and I don't even have any comments for her at the moment. I'm just waiting for her to say more.

Maruchan is a guy.

[Hikari Link]

So is BBmolla.

[Hikari Link]

Was this that game I said your playstyle was off, or was that that other one? Gah, playing three games with you at once is going to get EXTREMELY confusing. Everybody else I can handle, as I only have to play one game with them, so I won't have cross-over effect.

Can't remember. I strive for a 100% consistent playstyle though, so I really don't see it. The only time in remotely changes is when I get angry, in which case I swear a little more.

Maruchan: I think in general that he is town, but please look at the end here at the last paragraph. Town shoouldn't want town lynched over scum. You should always vote your strongest sum read for as long as is practical. But I will admit I understand the sentiment, n matter how bad the reasoning is.

Re-read my last paragraph that you mentioned. I called them BOTH scum, and said I would rather get rid of the lurker-scum than the mildly-protown-trying to do something-scum

Well I'll be damnmed, you did. I must have misread that. Sorry. That quells that suspicion.

Tomie Uzumaki: Still waiting for those read explanations from her. Her posts read town. More content would be nice.

Tomie is a her? I thought the gender thing under Tomie's picture said Male
Nope. Says nothing. And read her RVS answers. Reads as female, if it doesn't say so explicitly..

Town
Maruchan
projectmatt
Tomie Uzumaki
hiplop
Kcdaspot
BBmolla
Ray Montano
zMuffinMan
Quilford
Everyone who hasn't posted
Scumhunter
Descent
cavjj
Don Josh
Cobblerfone
Scum

I'm liking the part of this list where I am on top, because this like, NEVER happens to me. Ever. But I disagree with hiplop's placement.

Well your placement can change if you become scummy. And as for hiplop, I can't really explain it, but read his other games and reread him.

Cobble is a good wagon.

Not sure I like the way you worded that.

I know, I know, I left out Maruchan. It's because she's completely null and I don't even have any comments for her at the moment. I'm just waiting for her to say more.

Maruchan is a guy.

Link beat me to it.

On the note of waiting for me to say more? O.o I think I have addressed almost every wall, whether or not it was directed at me.

On this note, based off of the reads matt is throwing out, I wouldn't be surprised with a matt kcda hiplop scumteam. JS.

Teamhunting is flawed in general, but particularly this early. It's good to have suspects, but don't let "connections" paint your view of things if one flips town/scum. Scum can manufacture those kinds of connections to implicate others. I've seen it happen.

[Hikari Link]

Why?

Because in the post I check out the top two wagons and apply pressure to one of them instead of ISOing every player and getting reads on everyone.

Why?

If you'll notice, my first batch of reads were garbage in #95 and I had to reread them to realize that. Nothing has been jumping out to me this game, so instead of letting my vote go to waste by voting a player no one else agrees with or just not voting at all, I decided to trust the town. Considering 4/18 are mafia, I decided the possibility that all three of the people on either wagon being mafia is very small, and that there must be

some

town on either of these wagons. I looked it over, decided Hip does have some odd things about him, and put my vote on him, contributing to a building amount of pressure.

Buuut knowing you Quil, you just read the first sentence and didn't bother reading the rest.

So you admit to sheeping because you can't come up with anything yourself? And you'd rather vote on wagons than for somebody that nobody agrees with? If that's the case, how do you expect to help the town in any way? Not sure if scum or just lazy town...

And you never answered my questions. What changed that made you decide

all

of your reads were bad and what are

your current suspicions

? I'm not asking which bandwagon you believe is better, I'm asking which players

you

think are scummy and why? I want real content in your next post.

@zMuffinMan

: So how about that post you were going to make "tomorrow"? Still not seeing anything. I don't like people who make promises of content and don't deliver.

I'm trying to get bandwagons going to help confirm or rebuke my thoughts on who is scum. Pressure either makes diamonds or crushes scummy rocks.

Yeah, that's what I thought you might be going for.

Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.

No, I''m fairly certain you're thinking of genie wishes. Most scum I find are due to actions rather than wording. From my experience, scum are the ones that try to twist people's wording against them. Still my top scum pick. Maruchan case didn't help you much either, but at least you didn't jump on the hiplop wagon.

I will be V/LA until the 28th due to camp. I will accept replacement at the mod's discretion.

I will remain on the Cobbler wagon. However, there was another person who I thought seemed scummy. I don't remember who, but they suggested a No Lynch Day 1. (Possibly Maruchan?)
Anyway, see ya the 28th!

Oh dear God, that's indeed a long time! Anyone else thinking he's not a PR/scum due to this alone? I'd think someone with one of those roles which require night activity would just immediately ask for a replacement rather than have it go to waste. Either that or he just doesn't give a fuck.

[Hikari Link]

I'll be a little upset if my nickname is Jesty

How about Killy?

[Hikari Link]

I actually think there are other elephants that need to be addressed before BB is lynched\strongly considered. -coughcobblerfoneandhiplopcough-. I feel like BB's frustration when she was called out was legitimate, and I feel like her latest posts just have this certain demeanor to them that I have difficulty describing, but that I see as town. I'm on another wagon.

Gonna point out again that BB is apparently male. And I already said personally I'm waiting for BBmolla's responses to my questions before I'm satisfied with a vote on him.

[Hikari Link]

Where the fuck are my e-mails!? Well, catching up now after taking yesterday off of any heavy reading, expect a post within the next couple hours.

[Hikari Link]

You might just want to bookmark this thread, HLink, and then set your bookmark page as your homepage. It's what I usually do.

Thanks, but the problem is I'm in 4 games. And the e-mails usually work, I just fucked up last night by not actually clicking on the link to the thread after I clicked on the e-mail because I was going to sleep.

[Hikari Link]

You can have multiple threads open in tabs as a homepage. It works

Yeah, but then whenever I click home, I get an unnecessary amount of tabs and I have to close them all. And without following the e-mail link, I won't get to the most recent post and I'd have to actually read to see where I was last. That simply won't do. Reading is for nerds.

[Hikari Link]

See that little orange page icon to the left of the thread title when in Central Park? Click that, and it will take you to the last unread post.

Really? I hadn't noticed, since I always just come through e-mail. That could prove to be very useful. Thanks.

[Hikari Link]

Sorry, I meant FIRST unread post, but the context remains the same.

Yeah, I sort of gathered that.

[Hikari Link]

I want to start by saying I fucking love how nobody in this thread knows the gender of anybody else except for me and possibly Kc.

This won't be a huge wall, because there really hasn't been a lot that has changed my view of things.

@hiplop: Please say who the hell you are quoting! I don't have the time or patience to perform the dark rituals necessary to divine who the hell you are talking about in those quotes.

Slowly catching up.

Does this mean we can expect a real post from you soon?

I still think that the hiplop wagon is shit, but I can totally see why everyone else doesn't see it what I see in him. Having him at the top of your scum list above someone else seems kinda shifty, no matter the player, pretty much everyone has expressed enough actual casework to make someone other than him look worse.

BBmolla: Definitely starting to see the scum there. In particular, the case against the pretty townish Kc. First reads praise him early FOSes and actively calling people out, but now that the votes on him, Kc is pointing fingers and starting bandwagons, even though he already perfectly and reasonably explained why he was doing so. His style is erratic, but there seems to be a method to his madness. Strange that if he really consider all this so scummy, why not vote Kc? I mean seems more solid than the hiplop case. Afraid of getting called on an OMGUS? If he had some actual legitimate reason, he wouldn't have to. Or maybe he just knows he can't get the bandwgon going and doesn't want to try when hiplop is such a low-hanging fruit?

Cobblerfone: Still really not liking him and he's my top pick. I really want to see more from him to see if he slips up, but since the pressure is off of him, he's been posting a lot less. I don't really like that at all.

@Mist7676: Can we get your RQS answers? Reads would be appreciated too.

I think that basically covers everything that happened in my absence. If there is anything else anyone would like me to address that I may have forgotten, please let me know.

[Hikari Link]

I already gave my reads on scum isn't that enough? and RQS answers were already given by DonJosh.

But fine...

I'm Mist7676 and I'm not mafia because DonJosh isn't. I will probably be known for this game by being a replacment. I like playing mafia because I have nothing better to do.

The only I can see is that you think BBmolla is scum. I'm afraid I may just not be following the rest of what you are saying. Also, town reads/null reads can be helpful too. I've seen players that prefer not to post them and while I don't agree with that, I can accept it if that is how you prefer it. Still, I'd appreciate if you outline and clearly define your cases against your suspects. It makes it easier to make sure you are being consistent. If you call one person for x tell and then not another person for the same tell, that can be telling of your alignment.

[Hikari Link]

While reading this posts i see kcd is right. The tone of Matt's post is trying to be nice to us so we don't vote him. When people saw him as scum he quickly fought back and became a lot more active

But kcd was starting wagons but if they died he tried another and another.

Kcd if they are scum but people aren't voting them, are they still scum?

BBm's response to Maru's openning post was like "Oh someone catchs my

fake

tell" how are we sure it's fake?

These people are scum...
VOTE: Bbmolla

People I think are scum. I'm going to read about the Hiplop case

Yeah, the only person I'm realy seeing there is BBmolla. Unless you think Kc is scm, but then I don't get why you are jumping on a wagon with him. I can't really even tell what your case on BBmolla is. Like I said, if you could define it a little clearer, it would really help.

Also: Fucking quote tags, how do they work?

[Hikari Link]

Sorry that I am tired from having just spent the past 9 hours at a Navy Recruiting station leaving voice-mails on peoples machines most of the time. and then spending an hour PTing. I think I have a right to be a little worn out after doing this on only 4 hours of sleep. Fuck, I only messed up ONE QUOTE TAG, be glad I didn't mess up all 20.

I wasn't just talking about you. Look at Mist's post next to yours.

I still think that the hiplop wagon is shit, but I can totally see why everyone else doesn't see it what I see in him. Having him at the top of your scum list above someone else seems kinda shifty, no matter the player, pretty much everyone has expressed enough actual casework to make someone other than him look worse.

BBmolla: Definitely starting to see the scum there. In particular, the case against the pretty townish Kc. First reads praise him early FOSes and actively calling people out, but now that the votes on him, Kc is pointing fingers and starting bandwagons, even though he already perfectly and reasonably explained why he was doing so. His style is erratic, but there seems to be a method to his madness. Strange that if he really consider all this so scummy, why not vote Kc? I mean seems more solid than the hiplop case. Afraid of getting called on an OMGUS? If he had some actual legitimate reason, he wouldn't have to. Or maybe he just knows he can't get the bandwgon going and doesn't want to try when hiplop is such a low-hanging fruit?

Hiplop is the scummiest on my list. I'd be down for a KC lynch too, but I don't want to vote him if I'm the only one cause that'll just waste my vote.

I can agree with the first part in terms of reasoning, if you truly believe it (though why you do is beyond me),, but the second half of that sentence seems a bit off. It's not a waste of a vote because we still have plenty of time left in the day. You should be pushing for the person you think most likely to be scum for as long as possible. Again, assuming you think hiplop is most likely, this s acceptable, but I really can't see the case.

And same question to you, if you think I'm scum why aren't you voting me?

Because I think Cobblerfone is more likely scum. You are #2 on my list, but I don't settle until near a deadline or when a wagon I don't believe in is near a lynch.

[Hikari Link]

Well, clearly my vote on Cobblerfone is going nowhere. While I don't think BBmolla is an incorrect choice for the lynch,Cobblerfone just feels more likely to me. Seriously, does nobody else see the scumminess here?

Yeah, we're at the 18th page in an 18 player game. For the sake of everyone's future sanity I suggest we agree to lynch one of the leading wagons soon.

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

VOTE: Hiplop

To follow my own advice.

So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.

After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.

And even outright admits it.

Now I'm willing to admit that a change of heart is not beyond the realm of possibility, but he's never stated anything of the sort. This just reads like taking an easy lynch to me. I'd rather not settle for BBmolla when Cobblerfone just seems more likely to flip scum.

@zMuffinMan

: Where are those explanations for the reads that you promised yesterday?

[Hikari Link]

Cobbler is scum, but so is BBmolla. BBmolla has a wagon, so you might as well vote him

I don't really like the idea of letting him fly under the radar though. Something needs to be said and I aim to say it. Just because a bandwagon is in motion, doesn't mean it can't be stopped and it certainly doesn't mean that it shouldn't be. If everyone on the wagon can't be swayed, I'm willing to settle for BBmolla, as he's my #2 right now, but it just makes no sense to not at least try to sway others in what you believe the correct direction is.

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

Finally we have a logical player in here. I actually agree with Hikari's case on cobbler. If the day were to swing in that favor I would probably leave matt to vote cobbler.

Please don't call me Hikari. I have an entire signature regarding this issue. I have nothing to say to the statement itself, because I believe my reponse to hiplop and my last post cver my feelings on the issue in general.

[Hikari Link]

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

VOTE: Hiplop

To follow my own advice.

So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.

After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.

And even outright admits it.

1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.

1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.
2. That's because it's not a real argument. There are lots of reasons for you not to jump on that wagon. I could sit here and speculate that you two are partners together, but until one of you flips scum, there's realy know way of knowing what the reasoning there is and I believe I've already stated in this game that I think teamhunting is pretty dumb.
3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?

@Quilford

: So you want to risk the whole game on the (allegedly) 50/50 chance that the set up is favorable? And on top of that, you want to do it by asking for Day 1 claims? In my experience, little as it may be, it's very hard to get a PR to claim, even when the circumstances are such that there is virtually no chance for mishap. And you're telling us that there is at least a 50% chance of mishap. That's even assuming that each plan is solid and unlikely to fail. I don't really see that as the case here. I prefer a plan that carries minimal risk for the PRs that maximizes the reward, if a plan is used at all. I don't have a plan like that for this set up, but if you can come up with one, I may be able to get behind it if there are no glaring holes.

@Everyone

: Do you know if it is Quilfords meta to try to break the set up? I want to say that scum wouldn't so brazenly ask for a massclaim, but really, I'm not sure whether this is generally considered a towntell, a scumtell, or a nulltell. I know at the very least from my experience that plans like these tend to fall apart if everyone doesn't want to go through with it though, so regardless, it seems destined to fail.

[Hikari Link]

Wow, it's been a while since I've posted, so rather than be prodded, I'll just post with promises of a catch-up within the next 48 hours, depending on how tired I am. I've been mentally fatigued for the last couple of days and enraptured in video games. It would appear my Cobblerfone vote is truly going nowhere. I'm likely to join the BBmolla wagon, but I need to make sure first that he's done nothing to change my mind on him. Ditto for hiplop.

[Hikari Link]

Heads up everyone, post coming in tomorrow. Based on hiplop's actions so far, I think I may have misread him, but we'll see on a reread. I still think a BBmolla lynch is probably better, but I'll see about the hiplop thing.

[Hikari Link]

cavjj has requested replacement.

Aw. He must not like me.

juuust kidding.

Hey guys, some of you I know, some of you I don't. Basically I don't do wall-o-text catchups. If I see something fishy, I'll point it out. If I've missed commenting on something you'd like my opinion on, please point it out to me. I promise I won't just sluff it off with a "well I haven't read that yet." But I might not read it unless you want me to. I'll ISO the mod, my predecessor, and certain wagons. Anything else?

I'm also on semi V/LA due to scumstorm, but I have my computer and can foresee at least one post every 36 hours...(due to replacements, I might suggest a deadline extension, depending on where we all are at the time...but the game seems pretty stagnant anyway, so...we'll see, lol)

See ya soon!

Possible Amish tell?

UNVOTE: Cobblerfone, VOTE: singersigner

And I'm sure I'll be asked what that is, so here are some links:
First mention in my game.
Post with further explanation and links to successful uses of it.
Post-game reinforcement from mod.
Further reinforcement.

It is worth noting that the one who brought up the tell was scum that game, but he has used it before to success when he was not scum.

Gonna go look at BBmolla and hiplop now, because I can almost hear everyone telling me now that neither of the current wagons are stopping anytime soon, so I'm probably going to have to back one of these two ponies today.

[Hikari Link]

No she doesn't mention her predecessor. and was Quilford scummy?

Yes, she did.

cavjj has requested replacement.

Aw. He must not like me.

juuust kidding.

Hey guys, some of you I know, some of you I don't. Basically I don't do wall-o-text catchups. If I see something fishy, I'll point it out. If I've missed commenting on something you'd like my opinion on, please point it out to me. I promise I won't just sluff it off with a "well I haven't read that yet." But I might not read it unless you want me to.

I'll ISO the mod, my predecessor, and certain wagons.

Anything else?

I'm also on semi V/LA due to scumstorm, but I have my computer and can foresee at least one post every 36 hours...(due to replacements, I might suggest a deadline extension, depending on where we all are at the time...but the game seems pretty stagnant anyway, so...we'll see, lol)

See ya soon!

See underlined.

[Hikari Link]

Your first mistake is assuming that I know if my predecessor claimed or not. But if you'd rather tell me right here and now, I can skip that part.

I've only just started replacing into games with this mindset, but here was the first one.

It IS an interesting cop out to making a case based off of one thing you saw in a game where the scum was

bussed

. I've actually never seen that before...

Reading links is pro. I links show a case where it was most certainly not a bus a well. As well as mentions of its accuracy by non-scum.

[Hikari Link]

Reading links is pro. I links show a case where it was most certainly not a bus a well. As well as mentions of its accuracy by non-scum.

You also have two links to the same thing, repeated by the same person...

If you read what leads up to the second post, you see that it is a rebuttal to scum claiming post-game that the tell is bad, even though it keeps working.

Backing up faulty tells is pro.

Considering that experienced players on this site acknowledge its accuracy, I'd hardly call it faulty.

Meet 1/13. I will never agree with that as a tell for a case.

To quote a great American hero:

People who get caught by the Amished tell keep saying it's ridiculous and they would have done the same as town, but people who drop the Amished tell nonetheless keep flipping scum.

[Hikari Link]

This is a serious misrep of Maruchan's statement. Seems pretty clear to me that he's stating that BBmolla is a suspect, yet somehow hiplop takes it that Maruchan is saying everyone except BBmolla is guilty? He also states on multiple occasions that there is no case on him, despite the fact that there are currently several cases on him from various people. I clearly misread him early on and then just sort of ignored him as a case of useless town, which isn't a very uncommon case. I think he's definitely a scum candidate. Still liking singer for the Amish tell,but seeing the hiplop case too. Not sure about BBmolla, but he's still not feeling town to me. I've also got that bad feeling on Cobblerfone. I guarantee something here is inaccurate though. I mean, I simply can't imagine that we've caught 4 scum on our hands.

@Hikari...

This alone makes me want to lynch you. /joke

And apologizing for your predecessor is very different than saying you'll reread your predecessor.

@Hikari...when you start acting like a tell is the Word of God, and try to back it up with a few people who have reputations, when I can find just as many if not more experienced players who acknowledge its inaccuracy, then it's a faulty tell.

I don't think it's infallible, I think it's accurate far more often than not.

If you haven't figured out why there's a reason I needed to do just READ his posts, then I can no longer help you.

But I'll forgive you after game if you turn out to be scum grasping at straws as opposed to just being dumb town.

Oh, I know what your reasoning is, but you're going about it all wrong. Apparently you don't understand subtlety, which is something I've seen from you already so it meshes well with what you are saying. You really should drop the charade, since you've already made it so blatantly obvious. As for the Amish tell, I'll give you your meta makes it possible that you are one of the few who dropped it as town, but it's still a tell that I fully stand by. It's possible for town to drop scum tells, even big ones, but that doesn't make the tell bad.

To break it down:

Cobblerfone

: See previous case. Has done basically nothing to change that. He needs to post more content in general because his scumminess combined with his lack of content is really not looking good to me. I'm pretty sure at least part of my read on him was his vote on hiplop, but after reexamining hiplop, I suppose that's really not as scummy.

BBmolla

: Still not reading town to me. This recent post in particular bothers me. He chastises Descent because he thinks that scum-slips are bullshit. Like I've said, they are bullshit. Scum are not genies that require certain wording. Sometimes people just fuck up and have a brain fart. It's not a defense of hiplop, just a rebuttal of the concept of the scum-slip. I'll admit my experience is minor, but I can't really recall some sort of improper wording actually leading to a scum lynch.

hiplop

: I guess I just misread him early on. I still think he could be useless town, but upon closer inspection, the case on him is much sturdier than I thought. I could settle for him today.

singersigner

: Amish tell seems pretty accurate, but there are some reasons to keep her around and just watch her.

UNVOTE: singersigner, VOTE: hiplop

[Hikari Link]

@Link: I'm not lynching him because of the scumslip. Even if he hadn't made a scumslip, my view that he's scum would be the same.

And you're chastising Singer because she thinks amish is bullshit. You can't say scumslips are bullshit tells but completely enforce that amish is always accurate. Amish itself is a scumslip, is it not?

No. As Cobblerfone was so apt to point out, a scum-slip is a wording error while a scumtell is is an action. Calling people on misspeaking is not the same thing as calling someone on doing something scummy. Also, I pointed out that Amish is not necessarily 100% accurate. Like every scumtell- town can drop it, it just happenes that scum are more likely to drop it.

[Hikari Link]

hiplop is L-1

That simply isn't true. Kc unvoted and went to singer.

[Hikari Link]

Updated reads coming in the next 48 hours, but I have to take my mom to the hospital for surgery in 5 hours and I have work tomorrow afternoon, so I doubt I'll be able to post properly tomorrow. For now, my vote stays on hiplop, but Maruchan is definitely on the radar now. His list is definitely suspect and his latest actions in general, such as his jumpiness and interactions with others reads scummy to me. Still, I think BBmolla is definitely ahead of him. This post:

Let's say that hiplop didn't exist as an option for a lynch today. Who would be your next two targets?

Probably a No Lynch. Maybe Empking, he's either useless sheep town or sheep scum.

seems suspect to me. Empking doesn't seem like scum, but it's really hard to say for certain since he just seems like Empking. And a no lynch seems kind of ridiculous at this point. I just can't see how someone could only have a scum read on hiplop or Empking at this point. More detailed post later because I really need to sleep now.

[Hikari Link]

Oh my gosh. That was the most awful reading experience I've ever had to endure in my life. I'm sorry but I don't know what the deal is here. I feel like someone decided to round up the dumbest players on the site and throw them all in a game together. And you know what, I'll throw myself in that mix because I could feel the intelligence seeping out of me while reading the past fifteen pages.

Since almost every wagon is built off things that are not legitimate scumtells my initial response is to vote and campaign for the dumbest person in the game. But I honestly could not decide who that players wass. So instead I'm going to vote for the least helpful player in the game.

Unvote
Vote: Empking

I don't understand how you people who have played with Empking before can honestly sit here and say Empking is obvtown. Empking is doing the EXACT same thing in this game that he does in every single other game, which is post one-liners which have no weight or substance behind them with no original thought or effort. Its an index of the same things being thrown out over and over again. And no Empking, you are not an easy player to read because you do the same thing when you're town and scum. Its infuriating and its unhelpful. And I think every player who is sitting there and saying Empking is obvtown are either seriously insane or scum keeping around a weak player in the game who is going to be easy to sway and lead.

Any questions?

The reasoning here seems terrible to me and much worse than most of the "bad" cases on hiplop, BBmolla, or singersigner. While I agree that Empking could just as easily be scum as town, I don't see that as being a good reason to lynch him when there are others that are far more likely to be scum.

@Link: Then lynch me tomorrow, that's fine. We lynch Hiplop today.

As you should be able to tell, I'm perfectly fine with that, hence my vote on hiplop.

And No Lynch will make the players odd avoiding things like 6 player LYLOs. So considering I have no solid scum reads(excluding hip to the lop), I'd prefer to do that then ML a townie/out a PR for no reason.

I support a No Lynch in MyLo much more than early on. There's chances for Doc saves that can even out the count just as easily without us wasting a day. There's still so much information to be gained from a town flip than from no flip.

Actually,

Vote: Cobbler

.

hiplop's latest posts have finally contributed at least something of little merit. Maruchan's ISO is a hell to read through. I can't pin down exactly what his alignment is. Ray still suffers from some terribad logic and his condescending tone bothers me, but it seems to be moreso from his personality then his play.

I've noticed Cobbler has recently gone down on a lot of suspect lists. Why? I just read through him again and yes, it's terrible. I don't think I will be able to sway the majority, but he's scummier then the current leading wagons.

Cobbler still has some definite scumminess to him, but as you pointed out and I said earlier, it's a wagon that will have a really hard time getting off the ground. I think it's a sort of "out of sight, out of mind" thing. I waited patiently and tried my hardest to push the wagon, but people just wanted the day to end. That was like 10 pages ago and now we're really no closer to a lynch than we were then. If I didn't think that hiplop had so much more to give us, I'd definitely support this.

Link started off pretty great but the Amished tell was not used correctly in this situation

This is incorrect and zMuffinMan saying otherwise is total crap. As taken directly from the founder of the tell:

You replace into a game. Size/length doesn't matter. You get a town-aligned role (PR/Vanilla doesn't matter either). What's your first instinct? Get to scumhunting, right? (RIGHT!) Heck, do you ever have any instinct or thought to check what your predecessor did at all? Of course not, since you know he (and you) are town aligned and whatever he did was with town intentions. Also, you know that townies can be wrong so you don't have to worry about changing a viewpoint or a stance on anybody and looking scummy because you can explain it. Therefore, you have ZERO reason to look at what your predecessor did, at all, ever. You might look for his thoughts since you know that he's town aligned but ultimately you believe in your ideas and scumhunting much moreso than anybody else's, even if you know that they're confirmed town.

Same scenario, but you get a scum role. You then have to worry about if you're under pressure, what did your predecessor say to become under pressure, you don't want to rock the boat too much and therefore you don't want to switch stances. All of this means that you look to your predecessor *first*. That's exactly what PE did by knowing that his predecessor didn't post at all.

There is ZERO/NONE/NADA/NILCH reason for any townie to look at their predecessor first and foremost. There *is* scum motivation. That makes it one of very very few true scumtells. I've done it as scum, ABR, Jazzmyn, xRECKONERx... I'm missing some here but that's some notable ones just off the top of my head.

I honestly don't see how that's any different from what happened with singersigner. The only difference is that she actually had a preexisting reason to do so, based on her past experiences, which was something I couldn't have possibly factored in before. Based on that and her semi-claim, it would have been extremely foolish to vote for her. There are still plenty of ways to prove her claim, depending on what her role is and while she needs to be watched for sure, lynching her today makes no sense.

and the flip to hip because he looked back and say the case was "sturdier" than he thought it was is really suspect to me.

It does look sturdier. As I said, I was ignoring him originally because I read him wrong early on and made some assumptions about his past play due to another game I've seen him in.

I'm not sure how someone who seemed so logical would flip with such poor reasoning. I would probably also vote for Link.

The reasoning there is solid, you just think everybody is dumb. I'm still just as much in favor of a BBmolla lynch, but I think that we stand to gain just as much from a hiplop lynch. I stand by it even more now that Maruchan is looking scummy, because I really don't see them being scum together. They've been at each other like cats and dogs this whole time and unless this is an extreme attempt at bussing, I kind of doubt that they are a team. Though it's not out of the realm of possibility, it seems extremely doubtful. A hiplop scum flip would be an oportunity to see who was opposed to the hiplop lynch and what their motives were and it would be a good way to clear Maruchan. Alternatively, a hiplop town flip wold give us cause to analyze who was on the wagon and what their motivations were as opposed to who defended him.

More to come tonight or tomorrow, but I need to start getting ready for work soon.

[Hikari Link]

Hikari, you learn the same from a Maruchan lynch, and so you should lynch him instead

But he doesn't call me Hikari, does he? And what happened to already accepting your fate? Was that a lie? This is a very important question to me.

[Hikari Link]

Link he hasn't accepted his fate at all all game. he lurked like fuck then came back to do nothing but defend himself all game.

Did I direct the question at you? Your answer to the question is irrelevant.

nah, I've pretty much accepted my fate. Town is clueless.

That post says otherwise.

[Hikari Link]

Hikari, you learn the same from a Maruchan lynch, and so you should lynch him instead

But he doesn't call me Hikari, does he? And what happened to already accepting your fate? Was that a lie? This is a very important question to me.

<3 was making sure you still cared???

wasnt a lie, but I've changed my mind.

So then it is true that at that point, you had given up all hope and were completely resigned to your fate and had no intention of making any further attempts to save yourself, but you have since decided that you don't want to die?

[Hikari Link]

LaL

Remember the part where I didn't ask you?

So then it is true that at that point, you had given up all hope and were completely resigned to your fate and had no intention of making any further attempts to save yourself, but you have since decided that you don't want to die?

was being a drama queen.

So that's a no then? Okay, that's good enough for me.
UNVOTE: hiplop, VOTE: BBmolla
I'd rather see a BBmolla lynch at this point. hiplop seems legit.

[Hikari Link]

link vote maru and ill <3 you forever... or give you INSTA TOWN credit in every game >_>

Going to work right now. I'll think about it when I get back, but I really don't care about your love or towncred. There's just something I've been mulling over.

[Hikari Link]

I'll probably post tomorrow if my body isn't still sore from work. My spine really hurts, so focusing for a long period can be an issue. Hopefully I'll be better tomorrow.

[Hikari Link]

Fucking wall alert. Think of it as an apology for my inactivity due to my busy schedule/extreme pain.

The reasoning here seems terrible to me and much worse than most of the "bad" cases on hiplop, BBmolla, or singersigner. While I agree that Empking could just as easily be scum as town, I don't see that as being a good reason to lynch him when there are others that are far more likely to be scum.

Hold up. You are clearly not on the same page as I am here. You seem to be under the impression that I am voting to lynch Empking because I believe him to be scum. That is not at all the intention behind my vote. I think I made it very clear I want Empking out of the game because he's useless. And that case is very much so valid and not bad at all. Its a very true case.

And I understand that. My argument is that your logic is bad because it assumes that we should lynch people for being useless rather than scummy.

As for your case with the Amished tell I don't need you to tell me how it works. I am 100% sure I have much more experience playing with Amished than you do and seeing the tell work in action. There is a difference and you have it a little twisted.

I never claimed to have more experience with it, but what I would appreciate is a further explanation of it. Nothing about how I used it appears wrong to me.

I don't believe you stating that you "read him wrong" earlier. That's just a fallback excuse to flip.

No, it's just a statement of truth.

And I'd like you to explain how a hip flip will help leading into tomorrow. Since you stated it you need to back up why you said it.

I want to say I explained it in the very post you are referencing, but you didn't quote it, so I can't be sure. I said that it would be telling of Maruchan's alignment, because I don't think they are scum together. BBmolla and Cobblerfone too, are people I think would be even more suspicious if hiplop flipped town. I also think it would be good for VCA.

*In case anyone was wondering* Link's flip-flopping tendencies are dropping him like a stone in my reads.

Oh no! It's not flip-flopping, so I don't really care what you think about it.

Lynch all Liars is a retarded strategy.

QFT

The only strategies that are viable as a constant through all setups are ones that make sense globally for the game of mafia. This game is a game of deceit not only for the mafia to use but for town as well. To restrict town to "truths" and "hidden truths"(the only thing that mafia wouldn't know) is horrid in practice.

I might do some work on this game tonight, not sure.

This is a perfect summation of my feelings on the matter. Sometimes the town has to tell lies if it will be harmful to tell the truth or if they are running a gambit.

Alright, literally JUST finished rereading. I do not have a reads list but as this game seems to feature several I wouldn't mind making one eventually. I will state now however that my top lynch choices are kdc and Maruchan.

I'd appreciate that list when you get a chance.

Oh, and Link I see what you were getting at with the Amish tell, however I regret to say that you were too quick on the gun. If you could do it again I'd probably say wait until singer has already reread. If singer DID read the ISO of his predecessor to see if he was under pressure (if in fact he was) then he committed the tell. But I don't think he did in this particular instance.

When I've seen it used, that's not how it went down. From what I can tell, expressing that one is going to specifically check their own ISO foremost, rather than read the whole thread, that is what is supposed to be indicative of scum. I really can't understand it any other way.

Scumhunter, "not using logic" and "being incredibly scummy" aren't null tells to anyone, if they were then that person could never lose as scum if everyone accepted that.

That's not completely true, Junpei. If a person's meta shows that they act the same independent of alignment, then you can't really call it a scumtell. It's true they aren't all that helpful, but you definitely can't confirm their alignment and as such it makes them a dangerous player. The ony difference is that unlike a really good player who always looks town and so is dangerous as scum, this is the instance of a player that looks bad all the time and so is dangerous as town because they often get themselves mislynched. You see the problem there?

In regards to KCDA, he's pushy and sporadic and

tunnels town members

for no reason, but I think that's just him, not him being scum. I feel if he were scum he wouldnt have 170 posts, it brings too much attention to him.

Scumslip? I did something similiar in speed mafia as town, but it still seems off. Why not players?

Because I don't think he's tunneled anyone whose actually scum as of yet.

He tunneled Cobbler for a bit whom you have down as null. Null isn't town.

But by the same token, it's not scum either, is it? That's not technically an inconsistency then. Not disagreeing that I think he's scummy, just that what you quoted isn't a scumtell.

Yup

What are they, what are you reasons for each of them?

BBmolla - the case on him is pretty obvious, and pretty much everyone has explained it: hes fake as fuck, and hes clearly just trying to look town. Look at my catchup post.
Marucha - Hes tunneling, without a case. Refuses to listen to anything, and literally, I've asked him to explain in short why I'm scum, and he can't. Also, and time he defends himself, its an awful AtE post. Not good at all. Add in his general snarkiness, and hes pretty obviously scum.
Cobbler - Honestly, I just agree with the cases others have made, hes been bandwagonning, and doesnt seem to have the towns intentions at heart. He could be town, but I just dont see it.

Junpei, hiplop is probably town. Take it from someone who has ML'd him twice in previous games. This is just the way he plays. He's stubborn and doesn't use logic and as the day goes on you start to think his play style can't possibly be just newb tells. I convinced myself in two separate games that there was no way he could be town and both times I was smacked in the face with a town flip. THere are better lynches today.

Not true at all, in fact. If you read the games SH is talking about, hes the one who looks stupid, because of his lack of knowledge. Don't try to boast your ego, when its not true at all

I see you explained this later.

BBmolla... ugh. Add BBmolla to the list of people I'm okay with lynching.

pedit: So Maruchan can you summarize your read on hiplop then?

Do you have any examples of Cobbler bandwagoning specifically? I actually haven't seen any cobbler cases posted I don't believe.

So your claiming that Scumhunter provided false meta on you? Hm..

Ill post some when i get home! Frantically typing this on break at work

Eh not so much false meta as like hm.. uh, misexplanation? SH was essentially the Maruchan of those games, he was tunneling and didnt really listen to anything. I got him as conf town, and I had a strong case on someone: but he just ingored it all and hammered me on both occasions ~_~

Could it simply be that your case was not as strong as you are making it out to be? Cause when I read you in another game, you played similarly to this as town and were lynched. Once the game wraps up, I'll link to it.

@Link,

Re: #858

You're taking what Amished is saying slightly out of context and it doesn't apply here. But I'm not going to argue this any further. singersigner is not going to be lynched purely on this.

Then please put it in context for me. Regardless of whether or not we are going to lynch her, I'd like to understand the tell better.

So Maruchan can you summarize your read on hiplop then?

He's 100% confScum

I wasn't aware that a Cop or someone had made such a declaration.

OH! Nevermind. That was me insinuating that a hiplop/Maru team is unlikely. And that if one of them flipped scum, then we wouldn't lynch the other so Molla wouldn't be lynched D3.

While all of their scumminess is independant, I can actually see this as Maruchan and Hiplop bussing each other.

Really? It's possible, but it just seems like a fairly unlikely bus to me.

Sorry if my reasoning here comes off as lazy, but I've spent like the last 6 hours working on this thread off and on and I'm hoping to finish soon. Rereads of people haven't really shown anything that seems worth quoting to me, but if anything I say needs more detail, I'll be happy to explain it to the best of my ability.

BBmolla

: Same case. Nothing has changed.

chkflip

: Nearly null. The only thing we really have on him is that he can't count, he jumped on the hiplop wagon, and he doesn't post much. Also suspicious of singersigner. Mystery here, but leaning scum due to jumping on the hiplop wagon so quickly and readily.

Cobblerfone

: Same argument is same.

Descent

: I don't like him saying that he doesn't want to put a vote down, but town points for calling BS on scum-slips. Needs much more input though. At the very least he needs to post some reads if he won't even put a vote down.

Empking

: Null as null can be. Empking is Empking.

hplop

: I'm satisfied with his recent posting and I'm pretty confident in his town status. His usefulness is another matter...

Junpei

: Good posts and looking for scum, apparently. I definitely agree with him on some arguments. though I'm not particularly onboard the KC case.

Kc

: Seems town to me. Leading the charge on bandwagons just seems like town to me. it's true that he jumps around and the fact that h seems to believe the stuff he says at times is definitely questionable, but I do believe he's been crucial in finding some scum and so I can't completely fault him for his methods.

killerjester

: His posting seems pro-town. Looking out for the town's best interest and solid reads.

Maruchan

: His bogus list, constant hiplop tunneling, and terrible lynching policy are all rather scummy.

projectmatt

: He's been looking town to me for a while now.

Ray Montano

: Reads as town that thinks he's better than everyone, but could easily be scum.

Scumhunter

: Not posting very much, but what e does post reads town. Needs more content.

singersigner

: Despite the Amished tell, I'm leaning town on her right now. Neds more content.
stormer: I'm not sure if we're going to get real posts from him or if DonJosh is just gonna come back, but either way, I've got a town read here due in major part to Mist.

Tomie

: She hasn't posted and is being replaced. No real reason to assume anything nefarious.

zMuffinMan

: Needs more content. I really don't like how so many of his posts are that he wil catch up soon and then he doesn't really fully catch up. I also don't like that he still hasn't posted his town reads. Other than that, I just feel like he's not adding much to the conversation aside from the typical "hiplop is scum" that we hear from other lurkers.

Town
Junpei
Tomie Uzumaki
hiplop
Kcdaspot
projectmatt
Scumhunter
stormer
killerjester
Ray Montano
Singersigner
zMuffinMan
Descent
Empking
chkflip
Maruchan
Cobblerfone
BBmolla
Scum

[Hikari Link]

BBmolla: Same case. Nothing has changed.

Hikari you have no case on me.

This has been covered. Don't call me that.

You better make one if I'm deserved of the number one scum position.

But I already have. Several times.

You went from "BB is town" to "I'd be willing to lynch BB." to "BBmolla is top scum."

Yeah, I went through those phases as you became progressively scummier. Looking through my posts you can follow that line of reasoning. It didn't just happen magically.

The only thing you said about me is "He said that was a scumslip when it wasn't." and "I don't like how he wants to No Lynch or lynch Empking."

Saying that those are the only things I've ever said about you is a horrible misrepresentation. Those are just the only things I've said recently.

Those two things a case does not make.

I know, but the case I have on you and the case others have on you do make a case.

I find it mind boggling how in that huge wall of text, there is nothing that mentions me being number one scum. Nothing.

My vote is already on you and you've said so little that there is really nothing to add. To your credit though, I'll admit that you aren't technically my top scumread. You're actually about tied with Cobblerfone, but my vote stays on you.

What will you be known for this game?
The most scummy looking townie. Give it time. You'll see.

From This Post

I would just like to say, I predicted the future, and warned you all. Therefor when you lynch me and I flip VT, you have nobody to blame but yourselves.

Warning us you were going to be scummy does not excuse you from being scummy. It means you need to learn to stop playing scummy.

[Hikari Link]

You are blatently lying. Link me to your case.

Is this good enough or should I continue?

You are blatently lying. Link me to your case.

I just skimmed through Links' iso that referenced you and I see the progression of scumminess that he went through with you. But I see no post dedicated to a case on you.

That's because the majority of the case against him was already presented. Restating an already stated case was unnecessary when it was not requested and I've been busy. Instead, I just addressed him little by little and voted as it became clear to me that he's scum and that my #1 read of Cobblerfone was not a valid lynch for the day.

Warning us you were going to be scummy does not excuse you from being scummy. It means you need to learn to stop playing scummy.

I agree with you, however, you told me earlier that hiplop couldn't be judged scummy because he is always scummy. Yet Maruchan is scummy as credited to his meta and that's okay?

No, but I've seen his town and it doesn't read like this. hiplop does read the same.
Oh, and by the way my bit about Cobbler being null is that he is not town, and that is what his post is about. TOWN players, not "non-scum" players, therefore my point stands.[/quote]
Fair enough. I was looking at the outermost quote rather than the innermost. I retract my statement that it wasn't scummy.

Really? It's possible, but it just seems like a fairly unlikely bus to me.

Both are scummy, Hiplop's a weak player and Maru thinks himself a scummy player anyway. With the way the day evolved if they distance themselves they can at least save one of their supposedly weaker mafiosos. Plus, there was one post from Maru that caught my eye that seemed more like him catching a "scumtell" from his partner. I should know, I've done this both times I've been scum. I'll just have to look for it in the morning.

Why do you think that if one of them is scum the other must be town despite both being scummy? (Well, okay you have Hiplop as a townread, but just go with me for a second.)

Because it's relatively unwarranted bussing. Near as I can tell, the majority of the heat on Maruchan has come as a result of his tunneling hiplop and his laziness, while hiplop is just being hiplop and theres really no reason I can see for him to push so hard against his scum partner when it's just making the partner look even worse. I think that bussing usually comes from a scum partner in decent to good town standing to get better towncred.

[Hikari Link]

Unwarranted bussing happens Link, it's called wifom and instant towncred.

It can happen, but I am saying I don't think it did happen here. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but it's something I'd personally wait on to see if nobody scummier comes along.

Also I don't like going so much off of meta. Decent players and up will know their meta and be able to conform to it. Tell me Link, what could POSSIBLY make hiplop scummy in your eyes if he can go rampant like this all he wants?

He's a tough nut to crack. As I said, a player like him is dangerous as town. It would really come down to how he looked after a few days. I will agree that the meta argument can be true. I just don't think it works for the kind of player that has a negative meta like hiplop and Empking.

[Hikari Link]

Do you understand that Maruchan claimed VT and what that means for town? Don't you realize that we need to kill him to protect town PRs even if he is town? It is day 1 and he is scummy independent of the claim, and the claim just solidifies it.

He should be lynched, but not for this reason. Killing Maruchan won't protect the town PRs. The damage has already been done.

You are right, damage has been done, however more damage will be done if we lynch someone other than him, or at least force them to claim. Maruchan's claim will be out forever, if he is town then he is narrowing suspects just by being alive and if he is scum then he should die anyway. He's scummy as it is which so I see no reason to go against this idea.

Also, "he should be lynched". Then lynch him.

I hadn't considered that not having others claim would be helpful, I was only thinking in terms of one vanilla claim not hurting the town. I'm willing to accept my #3 in this situation, but I really want a BBmolla or Cobblerfone lynch tomorrow. Assuming that a scummier person doesn't appear, obviously.

UNVOTE: BBmolla, VOTE: Maruchan

[Hikari Link]

oh, and Junpei is near conf-town in my mind btw.

I tihnk Junpei would agree with me that this is not a good stance to have.

[Hikari Link]

I don't understand link?

I know you don't, but Junpei would. We've essentially had this conversation before and as near as I can tell, with both understand the dangers of scum that everyne thinks is town. Or town that everyone thinks is town, really.

[Hikari Link]

Oh

@Everyone:

I want you to tell me right now what you'll think of hiplop/Kcda/BBmolla IF I FLIP TOWN WHEN YOU LYNCH ME. So that I can catch scum in a binding hold so they might slip up.

hiplop: My feelings there are very unlikely to change and a town flip there won't change it. He's a town read for me, plain and simple.
Kc: Town flip from you wouldn't be enough to change my opinion of him either.
BBmolla: I already think he's scum, so a town flip from you would do nothing but increase that.

@projectmatt: Not sure I ever mentioned it, but I also read your Cobbler wall and could see a lynch of him tomorrow or today, but I'm also fine with Maruchan because I feel like he's got a good chance of flipping scum. I also believe there are people too tired of this day to bother reading another long case, so it's best left for tomorrow this close to the deadline.

This is a decent point. Maru's explanation makes semi-sense though. I don't know about Maru, but the people who I read as scum who jumped on his wagon and his eagerness to prove a point after he dies makes me believe he is town.

Then he'll be town doing good in his death, but scum can use this tactic just as well. By trying to appear town as possible close to a lynch, it can lead to a different lynch. That's not to say town shouldn't try to help the town as their demise draws near, but there's just no guarantee to motives are pure.

[Hikari Link]

Kcda, right this second. tell me 4 names of who the scumteam are

give me FOUR names.

and if any one of them is not scum, endgame I am laughing in your face.

Wait what? Thats what I thought. You have scumspects, but you do NOT know a 4-man scumteam all game.

I don't even know where in gods name you got that weak ass shit argument.


(also, if i die, then you all lynch hiplop, and he flips town, Kcda is scum for the "If one is town the other is fuckin scum and I'll lynch him" stance.

seems like an easy way to push a mislynch tomorrow

)

I'm not even remotely sure how you can say that when you seem 100% positive that hiplop is scum. This baffles me.

[Hikari Link]

Kcda, right this second. tell me 4 names of who the scumteam are

give me FOUR names.

and if any one of them is not scum, endgame I am laughing in your face.

Wait what? Thats what I thought. You have scumspects, but you do NOT know a 4-man scumteam all game.

I don't even know where in gods name you got that weak ass shit argument.


(also, if i die, then you all lynch hiplop, and he flips town, Kcda is scum for the "If one is town the other is fuckin scum and I'll lynch him" stance.

seems like an easy way to push a mislynch tomorrow

)

I'm not even remotely sure how you can say that when you seem 100% positive that hiplop is scum. This baffles me.

So because someone is sure they've found one scum...
that means they HAVE to be sure they've found four?

I don't see the connection....

Did you even read what I said? I specifically underlined what I was referencing. How can you fault Kc for going after hiplop tomorrow if you flip town when you have already said that you think hiplop is scum? The logic there is baffling.

[Hikari Link]

All he'll probably say is yes he conversed with me over PM about a non-related matter. But you can ask for confirmation if you wish.

He stated nothing incriminating nor helpful as to the actual alignment of Hiplop however.

I would be happy to actually explain this whole lil thing more in-depth in the post-game, and why it made me get townvibes.

I don't really care for how vague you are being. If it is nothing alignment-based, why are you hiding it?

[Hikari Link]

I'm not sure how I'm getting prodded when it's been far less than 72 hours since I last posted, but whatever. I'll post tonight.

[Hikari Link]

Post gonna have to wait ubtil at least tomorrow. I have to wake up early and won't be home until late, but if I can manage some downtime with a computer, I can get something of value up by tomorrow afternoon.

[Hikari Link]

Last day of not being able to post, I swear, but I've bben out late all week and that includes tonight. My weekend starts tomorrow, so I'll have the time to dedicate. I've been reading casually and taking things in, but it hasn't been full-on analysis because I've been busy as shit and haven't have like 5 contiguous hours to spend here. These are the things I promise when I am free this weekend: a full read list, a vote, and my thoughts on the current game state.

[Hikari Link]

So those two posts changed him from a scum read to a town read eh?

Junpei, I've made the mistake in a few games on here to write people off as town, just because I found their behavior so "anti-town" (shameless wagoning, lack of logic, opportunistic votes, voting my town reads) that I had a hard time thinking that a scum would do that so blatantly. Well, what do you know quite a few of those people ended up being scum so I've started reconsidering people I had previously written off as being wrong but town-motivated. Eh, I don't think kcda is getting lynched today and I'm not confident enough in my vote here to really push this harder right now, but yea, I just want it noted that I am a bit suspicious of kcda still.

So you're saying that you normally see very anti-town players are town, and then they turn out scum. So, you decided to lynch kcdaspot because you found him anti-town. And the switch just turned on? I mean, it would seem like he's been anti-town for practically all this game, yet just then you finally decided he was scum?

Do you by chance know where those games are where you mistakenly wrote off anti-town players as town when they were really scum are?

His vote on glowball isn't scummy because he doesn't agree with you, and that is the logic you gave when you voted. Nonetheless, I see you are v/la, so I probably am going to have to find those games,

Also, since August 30th, Hikari Link has had 4 posts, three of which are prod dodges. I see him lurking a lot, and while I understand life may be difficult, I still have to say that this is getting out of hand.

You do not see me lurking a lot. What you see is me reading the thread on my phone. If I wanted to lurk, I'd set my status to offline so that you'd have no idea when I was online and when I wasn't. Also, I'd hardly call 5 days of not being able to have like 5 straight hours to post "out of hand". Anyway, my post is coming soon, so just relax for now. I'm about 3 hours into it right now, so you can probably expect it in the next two hours or so.

[Hikari Link]

It has been about 10 days, Link. And when I said lurking I meant reading without posting. However you're here now so I'll just wait.

It has not, sir. I posted a real post on the day Day 1 ended and Day 2 started on the 5th, I believe.

[Hikari Link]

Finally I have a long stretch of time, I apologize for the time it's taken for this post, but during the week, I really just don't have a great deal of computer access anymore. I spend almost the entire day sitting in a car, as I'm currently acting as a faux-chauffeur for the next couple weeks until I move into my new condo. Once the move is complete, I can begin operating in a more efficient manner, but for now I'll have to stick with a great deal of weekend activity and just small posts here or there during the week. I'd phone post, but as most of my posts require multiple quotes or links or the span of several pages, that stands as a difficult endeavor.

BBMolla

: Almost all of his activity today is pretty null. He's said and done nothing of particular value regarding his impending lynch and I read this as null. There were a couple posts though that stick out to me. This post suggests that he'll post some reads sometime soon, but we don't ever end up getting anything. I'd like to see those reads, personally. The fact that they haven't been posted yet troubles me, Unless these are his current reads, which would be quite laughable, I can't imagine why he wouldn't want to post them.

I'm not sure what to make of this, but I sill thought I'd point it out. On one hand the wording suggests that he isn't even considering the possibility that a check on him would come back scum, but at the same time, that could be a manufactured statement meant to dissuade future Cop checks on him. It actually makes perfect sense for a Cop to check him. He's one of the biggest suspects around, so it is only logical he'd be checked at some point.

Cobblerfone

: Closer scrutiny of his vote history makes me even more unhappy with him. Other than his vote on singersigner, I don't think anyone he's voted for is likely scum. And even the singer vote lacked particularly good reasoning. I also find it suspicious that he can't seem to keep his reasoning straight. He's not sure of why he said things which I find strange for town. Seems to me a townie has a grip on why he suspects the people he does and why he thinks others aren't suspicious. On the other hand, scum have to manufacture reasons, so it's harder to keep straight why they say and do what they do.

Empking

: He's still terribly hard for me to read. I really don't like this kind of player at all, because he's hard to catch as scum and an unlikely night kill as town, so the burden falls upon the town to determine whether he's town or scum and the wrong choice can be disastrous.

glowball

: Descent was fairly null, leaning scum, but she's leaning to the town side just a bit right now. Sayinng she'll lie just to spite Javert is definitely anti-tow, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a townie acting anti-town in frustration. I don't consider her calling Descent a scumtell because 1. she's actually reading the thread, not ISOing her predecessor and 2. I've replaced in as town before and stated that my predecessor looked scummy on a read-through. Disagreeing with the actions of your predecessor isn't a scumtell, it's more null to me. On the other hand, putting in the effort to catch up seems fairly pro-town to me. Also not knowing why hiplop or Maruchan died seems like a towntell, though knowing would not have been a scumtell.

Javert

: Extremely town to me. One major problem I have though is this post. The question makes no sense, honestly. Town simply can't and shouldn't be able to answer this question, because it's dumb and next to impossible to do with any degree of accuracy, while scum would be downright foolish to answer it in any sort of serious manner. Aside from this however, he reads extremely town due to his active scumhunting and pushing other players to answer important questions.

Junpei

: Similar reasons to Javert. He's putting in solid effort, making good points, asking the right questions, and pushing discussion forward. Honestly, either of these men are going to be dangerous if they are scum.

Kcdaspot

: He's suddenly very quiet after all of that activity yesterday. The Marchan and hiplop flips seems like they genuinely shocked him and it looks to me like he's now confused and just doesn't know what to do, which strikes me as town. I can't see why he'd just sort of drop off in activity if he were scum. I'd imagine as scum, he wouldn't let the town flips phase him and would just keep charging forward with the same bravado he had yesterday. I want to see more from him today though and I'm curious what his suspect list is now.

killerjester

: Still a town read for me. He's continued to keep up the good work and appears pro-town. The only problem I have with him is his "tests". I don't really like the idea of manipulating one's reads to draw reactions from others or putting out purposely false information. It's a way to cop out when being inconsistent. Anymore of these "tests" and my read could change, but for now I'll let it slide because of his overall body of work.

projectmatt

: I really have no qualms with his posting. I agree with a lot of the things he is saying and I particularly like how he was trying to get the Cobbler wagon running yesterday. As I've said before, I think putting your vote where you think is best and trying to convince the town of your findings is extremely town. Acknowledging the scum read of another on him strikes me as odd though. The fact that he's not instead rebuking the case is the only thing that sticks out to me, but as with killerjester, his game overall looks clean enough that it's worth keeping in mind but it isn't enough to completely change my read.

Ray Montano

: He's posted no content since my last read on him and he's being replaced, so my read hasn't changed at all. His replacement is going to need very active though.

Scumhunter

: He's more active now, so I'm pretty satisfied. His current activity seems town. I may not agree with all of his reads, but I see the thought process there and it seems consistent.

singersigner

: Almost no content from her and what little there is has almost no reasoning to back it up. She continues to be a scum read for me.

stormer

: The fact that stormer is actively maintaining his spot in this game without posting any actual content is indicative to me of possible scum motives. If he were going to stay in this game, I would've expected a rather expansive catch-up post not long after the night ended, but instead we've still got nothing. If he does end up being replaced, then this slot will probably go back to being a town read.

whispersilk

: Literally nothing to say here, so the analysis then falls to chkflip. Requesting a replacement means that he really could have been overwhelmed town. This slot has such a small amount of content, that I really can't judge it well. I could see him being scum if he weren't replacing, but whenever a person replaces, it becomes really hard to determine the reason for lack of activity.

zMuffinMan

: Lurking and openly admitting to laziness are certainly not signs of a pro-town player. He needs to bring more to the party, because right now it's hard for me to tell his alignment one way or the other. I don't agree with either of his scum reads, one of which (killerjester), he has yet to explain in any real detail and he only has a handful of town reads, which are a couple extremely townie guys, the relatively townie glowball, and inexplicably singersigner (which seems at least partially due to his dumb reason for thinking Quilford was town). He needs to be watched and he needs to be more active.

Town
Junpei
Javert
projectmatt
Kcdaspot
Scumhunter
killerjester
glowball
Ray Montano
Empking
whispersilk
stormer
zMuffinMan
singersigner
BBmolla
Cobblerfone
Scum

VOTE: Cobblerfone

Currently it seems like things are moving along sluggishly. We've got votes all over the case, but I'm not seeing at lot in the way of actual discussion of where we should be voting. It really feels like we've got a lot of people still feeling each other out, which I'm sure is at least partially due to all the inactivity going about. I'm not sure what we can do about this other than just discuss the potential wagons.

[Hikari Link]

K, seeing a Hikari-Glowball link here. If one flips scum, insta-vote the other.

Care to explain?

[Hikari Link]

K, seeing a Hikari-Glowball link here. If one flips scum, insta-vote the other.

lining up lynches is rarely good, however if people get on board with this I'd rather be lynched first if that is all you have against Hiraki.

1. Please don't call me Hiraki, it's Hikari. Also, don't call me Hikari. It's all explained in my signature.

2. Why would you rather be lynched before me? You can't know that I'm town more than you know that you are town unless you aren't town, but then if you weren't town, you wouldn't want to be lynched first, so why defend me in such a way?

[Hikari Link]

I'll answer Junpei's questions and any others people have in full tomorrow, but here's the short version:

Link, what are your thoughts on hiplops' death; does it tell you anything?

There's no way I can know for certain, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's because they thought he was a PR, which is the same reason I was against his wagon.

Also, it isn't the vanilla fact that glowball found Descent scummy that was suspicious to me. It was the reasoning behind it.

"Descent placed an RVS vote on Hiplop that didn't look much like RVS it look like opportunistic scum since the Hiplop wagon was is full swing and it really caught my attention. His reads are very different than my own which makes me upset."

RVS vote and different reads and she feels the need to bring up how scummy her old slot holder is? You don't find that scummy?

It's not the kind of thing I'd ever say, but I don't think it is inherently scummy. It draws unnecessary attention to oneself to criticize one's own slot.

Also catching up is a towntell? If I replaced into a game as scum, I would catch up and put forth effort just the same as town.

And that's what would make you good scum. I think it's more common among town than it is amongst scum. Think of it as something of a reverse-Amished tell. I generally see town as putting in more effort than scum. Not to say scum can't put in equal effort, I just don't see it anywhere near as commonly.

Also I explained earlier why claiming not to know the cause of death for Maruchan and hiplop is not a town tell.

You did, but that doesn't mean I agree with the explanation.

[Hikari Link]

Why did you add "besides glowball"?

Did you not read the rest of his post?

[Hikari Link]

Well I mean you don't have many posts since the day started that really depict scumhunting. A lot are you saying "I'M DEAD, SO DONE".

You worked hard on that .jpg, how about now you work hard analyzing the whole day and telling me your thoughts? As in your analysis and what not.

Uh no.

It's a PNG.

And Emp is scum.

Chkuhfuh is probable scum, but possible scapegoat just because he's so lurky.

Mafia are lurking in general. All I see is a lot of town vs. town. Cept maybe Cobbler.

I'm actually surprised you didn't have Empking twirling a mustache and wearing a black top hat and cape.

[Hikari Link]

@Link:
Cop needs to check the best player that could possibly be scum. Someone who could help the town as confirmed town, and could destroy it single handedly as scum. There's a few people in this game who fit that, but I'm not one.

Do you agree?

It's not a terrible policy, but it can be wasteful. I'm not a huge fan of a Cop who waits patiently, since a bad night kill can ruin a whole game's work. I prefer researching one of my top scum reads and then claiming if it looks like they won't be lynched and pushing for another suspect if they are town. What you posted is great in theory thugh and not a terrible idea in a larger game where a Cop is less likely to get killed at night, but it can be terribly wasteful if we lose the Cop at night, so it's super risky.

I really wish there was more to comment on at this point, but there really isn't as near as I can tell. Unless somebody has something else to direct at me. And before killerjester asks me to vote BBmolla, I'm waiting to see if he will comply to Junpei and scumhunt. If not, then I'm fine. I've had just about enough of this "I don't care if I die" gambit.

[Hikari Link]

uh...ok...ldszkjvbmsfdigjkb...I have a couple issues with...sdzlvcijkgasbdgl...now I feel like I have a confirmed townread, and...sdkzljvbclsdzfihgjkv...I'm uncomfortable with how...sdkvcjbmasd;igfb...

Is someone supposed to be able to understand this?

[Hikari Link]

Cobblerfone's wagon consists of 2 people who need replacement,

a Link whom we've heard little of recently

, Viscera with no explanation in depth (I'll be patient, just saying), and BBmolla.

I think it is time to cool the jets on this a little bit, I still don't see a cobblerfone case. projectmatt, you ask that MuffinMan make a case on you, but where is the case on cobbler?

Shouldn't be surprising. I blatantly said that the weekend was my free time to post and weekdays would contain very little content. I'm looking at about a week and a half before I'm back in full swing, but I'm always keeping an eye on things, input is just really hard with as much as I post. Further Cobbler case can be found if you ISO me. It's a bit scattered, but just Ctrl+F Cobbler in my ISO and you should find every point I've made against him.

[Hikari Link]

Scumhunter I implore you to join us on the Cobbler wagon. If you do, I promise I'll vote Kcda with you tomorrow. And, as I've mentioned several times, there's punch and pie.

Enough with the punch and pie bullshit. It's getting really old.

[Hikari Link]

Get out of here Hikari.

Emp: I suppose that's possible...but given what I suspect about him, and looking at who's voting for him right now, I'm inclined to believe that they're not.

1. Don't call me that.

2. No.

[Hikari Link]

Scumhunter: If there are any concerns with the case that cobbler hasn't pointed out, I urge you to point them out, if not then say so.

How is link probably scum? I also I'm growing increasingly suspicious of him (my reads list is starting to turn around a lot at this juncture) but why are you?

I'm not really sure what I've done that would lead you to that conclusion, but I doubt the soundness of your reasoning behind it. Make your case known so that others may see it and I may rebuttal. Unless your case is merely my inactivity, in which case you can kindly take it and shove it up your ass, as that's already been explained and will remain this for at least a week until I move.

[Hikari Link]

It's more the issue of you, Link, not posting specifically about your stance on VisceraEye's case.

1) Do you think it is logically sound (the case itself)?

2) Do you think cobblers' rebuttal is logically sound?

So your argument is because I haven't commented on something that I had already planned to comment on today? I took it that my vote remaining on Cobblerfone showed my stance on the issue and the fact that I'm not free to post in full until the weekend explained why I have yet to comment directly yet. That's not so much a case for scummyLink as it is for busyLink.

[Hikari Link]

I'm not sure why you're getting so upset over this, I just stated a concern, and you're getting defensive in a tone.

Not defensive, merely annoyed. It's irritating to me hat I can't give this game the full attention that I want to and even more so that people are finding that fact suspicious when it's really not in my control right now.

Anyway, how am I supposed to know that you planned to comment on the case and rebuttal today? I cannot read your mind.

But you can read my posts and see that I've stated when I am free.

In addition, yes it would appear that you still find cobbler to be scum, however that doesn't change my desire to want to hear your specific thoughts on the case and the rebuttal.

And of course I didn't think it would when you specifically asked for everyone's thoughts. But you specifically singled me out when plenty of others have made little to no actual comment on the case against Cobbler or his rebuttal. You see why that might vex me?

[Hikari Link]

I've actually been on everyone to respond to the case. Read my last dozen or so posts.

Yes, but how many of those people did you call scum or scummy for it? Nonetheless, it's the past now and my annoyance is quelled, so we'll leave it at that.

Nonetheless, if you've read the case, I'd appreciate it if in the time you'd dedicate to the thread, start writing thoughts on it and the rebuttal. I will stop asking for activity from you I suppose but it's just that you aren't expecting to be ready to post again until the deadline is up... we need your thoughts before the lynch...

That's not completely true. As I said, I keep an eye on the thread throughout the week. If something I feel needs comment arises before the deadline, I am willing to lose a few hours of sleep to comment on it. Trust me when I say that no matter how busy I am, I'm not going to let important issues lie. That said, I don't see a Cobbler lynch on the horizon today (real life days), so you can expect my response today and hopefully it might help sway one or two of the remaining people.

[Hikari Link]

Hikari

This. Stop calling me it.

[Hikari Link]

Cobbler Case

I'm going to preface this by saying that by opening the following spoiler, you agree to read THE ENTIRE THING. I will NOT be including a "tl;dr" to that end. You will READ my case, and you'll VOTE for Cobbler. It's long. And guess what...it's got stuff from d1 in it (I think.) You HAVE been warned.

PLEASE take the time to read it, as I feel it's far and away the best case against scum in the thread right now. In the spirit of clarity, I highlighted a few of Kcda's gems in here too.

Spoiler: The Cobbler File

Never experienced lurker scum

. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?

PREVIEW: I had no idea that when I joined Ninja Mafia that it would be so literal.

Why do you play mafia?
For fun, and a challenge.

Why are you not scum?
Cause of my role PM and because of the actions I'll take in the future.

What will you be known for this game?
:shrug:

The bolded is a blatant lie. I was in a game with Cobbler where he was town (My meta analysis will follow my case) and I was scum. My partner was a supernewb and lurked HARD the ENTIRE GAME. I was able to keep suspicion off him for the most part, we swept town [/flex] but the fact remains, he lurked. IIRC, Cobbler even called him out on it a couple times...gotta check my FAX tho.

How the hell do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

I'll tell you once RVS is completely done.

Ooo, maybe looking to gauge reactions from people for some scumhunting? Can't wait...

I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.

That makes sense.

Too bad

you answered it instead of matt.

Still,

that's a plausible town-motive.

Still,

I'm noting this.

Though,

you also defended me in the same way, so it's less notable.

Unvote

Yeah, I feel like we're already out of RVS so I'll just tell you why I have a town-read on Kcda:

His brashness and how he went and made a FOS in its own little post

. Now this isn't the most clear explanation,

but you see what the heart of the reason is, right?

There are a couple of things I don't like about this post. First, notice how infirm he is on any kind of opinion he might have.

Though,

he could just be intimidated in this big game.

Still,

that doesn't excuse not taking a stance on the matter.

Though,

I guess it could just be d1 paranoia.

Too bad

we don't know who we can trust.

But you see what I'm saying, right?

Second, THIS was what he was withholding from town until RVS was over. That he thinks Kcda is town because he FoS'd someone. Really. Honestly, read it again. I even italicized it to set it apart. WHY would he need to wait until RVS is over to say that? There's no good reason. It reads like it's something he saw some townie do with a town motivation in a different game. It stinks. I don't like it.

The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia.

Then why are you sided with the mafia? I see what Kc sees. I hope I can get a more solid scumread later but now:

Vote: projectmatt

again.

What I don't like about this post (AND Kc's for that matter) is this. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that those four 'getting to know you' questions will help town find scum. Period. Nothing in the content of the questions OR the possible answers will do ANYTHING to help town find scum. Period. Yet they're buddying up early on saying that PM is scum based on his answers. Ridiculous. And Scummy.

BTW, just so everyone's aware, we have 6 MLs and 1 NL until MYLO/LYLO.

And my timezone is PST I think.

lynch.
him.
now.

Remember what i was on about? trying to SEEM town? TAKE A WILD GUESS AT WHAT THE BOLDED IS DOING.

Take a wild guess at what the bolded is doing. Oh wait, this is a Cobbler Case.

@Maruchan: Please explain your, shall I say, "hyperness"? I know you have a lot of things to respond to,

but it does remind me of a certain scum that also seemed extremely townish. Tomie knows what I'm talking about.

Cobblefone: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for that reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.

Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.

Cobblerfone: Scum based off of the wall I posted and his lack of reaction.

Excuse me if I like to keep my posts wider than they are tall. Plus, I knew that if I refuted your case "point by point" it would lead to back and forth tunneling posts.

First of all, bolded is proof positive that Cobbler lied about my first point. He specifically remembers that game (it wasn't long ago.) Tomie was in it too...she was the doctor and I SMOKED her (Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)

As for the italicized bit, he's attempting to justify his lack of defense against a reasonable (in my opinion) case against him.

decent get scum points...

I still want my molla lynch.

someone please explain the cobbler wagon to me kaythx

I like de cobbler wagon thoo...

he hasn't made me feel any better since the first time i FoSed him.

... FUCK... I wanna call Cobbler town but he was like this as scum...

I DONNO WHAT TO DOOOOOOO

Whatever. This no longer fools me. When we're done with Cobbler, we're coming for YOU scum.

okayokayokaaaaay. geez

Yeah hiplop IS scum.

8 posts with a lot of fluff, a lot of reads going around and nothing else.

Yeah cobbler is scum

1st 2nd and forth posts scummy, shaky null on ISO 4, ISO's 5-8 scummy. but his 2 latest read town to me. not enough to shake a scum read but hey.

BUUUUUT Molla is lynch now.

just read iso 1 onwards.

More Kcda distancing from Cobbler...it becomes harder later as they both attempt to forward the scum agenda together.

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

VOTE: Hiplop

To follow my own advice.

So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.

After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.

And even outright admits it.

1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.

Reverse WIFOM? Really? Honestly? Those were ALL valid points against you Cobbler, and REVERSE WIFOM is the best defense you can think of?

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.

To elaborate: Suppose a goon/roleblocker, the doc, and the watcher all target the cop. Now the Watcher risks exposing the doc and himself, possibly getting the doc lynched and himself nightkilled. We do get one scum lynched, but we lose

two

PRs. Three if you count the cop. And if we have four there's a ninja that makes the fourth useless anyway.

This post is useless. Fluff. Pointless. AND scummy.

1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.

And how many of those games ended in a town win? Taking too much time can suck the life out of town.

3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?

Enough for a D1 lynch.

@muffin: i think meta is a terrible arguement...

Meta is the best argument.

This is one of the first posts indicating that Cobbler is more interested in lynching than he is in actually lynching SCUM. It's scummy behavior. Why WOULDN'T you want all the time necessary to pick the BEST lynch? You've had misgivings about ALL your reads, you said so yourself that you don't really trust your reads. He's trying to end the day because he knows that town is the most popular wagon and he wants to secure a mislynch.

Is Maru's wagon going to go up? 'cause I'm in if so.

See? And to think if the day was over, you wouldn't have had this opportunity to pick someone more scummy. Now what was all that 'let's end the day already' nonsense?

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

Post 297, page 12. Nothing that appears terrible at first. He got me as a town read, which means that he believes hiplop is town. Pairing us up as scum was pushing us, but calling us both town because of something town I did really makes no sense. Stay tuned for futher contradictions.

@Projectmatt: No, of course it isn't vice-versa. I'd prefer if the people on Hiplop voted you or Maruchan. Or, that's what I wrote in this response, but after I read that exchange between you and Kc,

I think you're town

, meaning hiplop is probably lazy-town (or incredibly weird scum).

Post 397, two posts after Cobbler's "hiplop is town" thing. Just a straight up contradiction after calling hiplop town. Go re-read his "experience" with Muffin. It's on page 16. It makes no sense for his mind to be sporadically changed.

Did I have a town read on you at that point? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

What about that bolded bit? That came directly from one of your posts.

@Projectmatt: I checked my ISO; there is no indication that I thought you were town at that point.

Must not have read post #297. *shrug*

However, I put zMM as scummier on my list with very similar intentions. The first person to question it, "Hey! You never said zMM was any scummier until just now! What gives?" would prove they are reading the thread closely. This one worked out as intended, and as a result I find Junpei to be all but confirmed town. If everyone really hates how I'm doing this though, I'll stop.

You're saying you did a scummish thing on purpose to find out who's paying attention. Despite the fact that the

mafia would be looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

I'm not buying it. For one it's anti-town in a way that I can't see town doing, for two it doesn't make any sense at all. Paying attention does not confirm someone as town. Especially since you've already done a "test" that could put the mafia on their toes.

How is coming out with a plan that successfully netted him someone who's by his estimation now confirmed town? And no one even had to die to confirm it! Why are you so against someone reading someone else as town? And further, why do you care how he plays the game? It's not like he tried to derail one of your wagons, or is suspecting you in any way, or did anything to harm town. This is a classic example of exactly what he's talking about. Mafia looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

What's amazing is that he's still alive...and still acting scummy. It's time for him to go guys. Cobbler, it sucks that we haven't gotten to play on the same team yet. Maybe next time bro.

Each number corresponds to a response to a quote.

1. A fine point if true.

2. The way the point is presented is confusing at best but Cobbler's town read reasoning was bad.

3. I don't really agree with the first part of this point. It's just unnecessary nitpicking of his wording. The second part is solid though and I agree with it.

4. Again, this is a quote I take issue with, but my reasoning differs. The answers have the potential to help determine things about people, but what I'm more concerned with is how he worded it as though pm was admitting to being sided with thew Mafia. My thoughts on that type of reasoning should be abundantly clear by now.

5. That has nothing to do with Cobbler, so I'll just say that I don't agree with the reasoning from Kc there.

6. This is another fine point against him, the latter part particularly.

7-10. Again, not Cobbler, but 7 and 8 in particular do seem worrisome out of context, but that assumes one skips over #173, where Kc elaborates that he meant the hiplop wagon. The rest of the posts seem to be predicated on that flawed premise.

11. I hold that my point remains valid, but the argument here is invalid. The responses from Cobbler there still seem ad to me too.

12. Don't see how it s scummy, unless stating the obvious is scummy.

13. I agree with this point as well.

14. I'm confused by this pont. Is it a drect reponse to the previous one?

15. This a ridiculous contradiction and I can't believe I never noticed it.

16. Same point. If anything, it only reinforces it.

17. While I still don't approve of the method, at the same time I don't think the reason stated by Cobbler is what makes the tests scummy.

Oh man, I forgot about this one. LOL

Spoiler: Ray's (that's me!) Suspicion

That case is crap. It doesn't mean anything. If you can actually put statements side by side and point how they directly contradict each other then there'd be something of substance there. But there isn't, so you're not building it. Because there's nothing to be built upon.

You're throwing a case to throw a case out there and pull a wagon on someone just to create a wagon.

That's not pro-town and it would be a terrible way for a town player to play.

Just to reinforce this,

Ray is getting scummy. I hate 131 with a passion.

My PM wagon is dead so...

VOTE: BBMolla

only wall? "everyone is town."

NOPE.

KCDA is just jumping wagon to wagon trying to get anyone lynched but himself.

BTW i'm weaker than this?

Really?

Considering his case is untrue (

you've been an early voter, if not the first vote on all wagons IIRC

) then yeah of course your case is stronger. I can lynch Molla as a compromise lynch. I still prefer Maruchan. I especially didn't like his "woe is me" type post about messing up the quotes.

Buddying Kcda by saying...what? That someone is wrong that Kcda is jumping from suspect to suspect by saying that he's...jumping from suspect....to suspect....

I interpretted that post differently, as Cobbler stating that Kc wasn't jumping from popular bandwagon to popular bandwagon, bu rather starting the bandwagons.

Spoiler: The Cobbler File

Never experienced lurker scum

. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?

PREVIEW: I had no idea that when I joined Ninja Mafia that it would be so literal.

Why do you play mafia?
For fun, and a challenge.

Why are you not scum?
Cause of my role PM and because of the actions I'll take in the future.

What will you be known for this game?
:shrug:

The bolded is a blatant lie. I was in a game with Cobbler where he was town (My meta analysis will follow my case) and I was scum. My partner was a supernewb and lurked HARD the ENTIRE GAME. I was able to keep suspicion off him for the most part, we swept town [/flex] but the fact remains, he lurked. IIRC, Cobbler even called him out on it a couple times...gotta check my FAX tho.

This has been covered. If other people think lurking is a scumtell I'm not going to be able to convince them it isn't. If I had a lurker teammate (and the game was in the early stages and I wouldn't know if I had one yet or not if I were scum) I wouldn't lie about my own experience, if I really wanted to influence the game I'd simply say that I didn't think it was. Further more, since this is a meta argument, why would I remove an oppurtunity to bus? I love zem buses.

How the [heck] do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

I'll tell you once RVS is completely done.

Ooo, maybe looking to gauge reactions from people for some scumhunting? Can't wait...

I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.

That makes sense.

Too bad

you answered it instead of matt.

Still,

that's a plausible town-motive.

Still,

I'm noting this.

Though,

you also defended me in the same way, so it's less notable.

Unvote

Yeah, I feel like we're already out of RVS so I'll just tell you why I have a town-read on Kcda:

His brashness and how he went and made a FOS in its own little post

. Now this isn't the most clear explanation,

but you see what the heart of the reason is, right?

There are a couple of things I don't like about this post. First, notice how infirm he is on any kind of opinion he might have.

Though,

he could just be intimidated in this big game.

Still,

that doesn't excuse not taking a stance on the matter.

Though,

I guess it could just be d1 paranoia.

Too bad

we don't know who we can trust.

But you see what I'm saying, right?

Second, THIS was what he was withholding from town until RVS was over. That he thinks Kcda is town because he FoS'd someone. Really. Honestly, read it again. I even italicized it to set it apart. WHY would he need to wait until RVS is over to say that? There's no good reason. It reads like it's something he saw some townie do with a town motivation in a different game. It stinks. I don't like it.

The first part is my personality. And again since this is partly meta, I think I'm more brash as scum anyway.

The second part has good reason on my end: If I didn't wait until RVS was over I wouldn't be able to use what I think was a towntell under the circumstances for anyone else. Scum could try to fake it, making it useless.

The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia.

Then why are you sided with the mafia? I see what Kc sees. I hope I can get a more solid scumread later but now:

Vote: projectmatt

again.

What I don't like about this post (AND Kc's for that matter) is this. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that those four 'getting to know you' questions will help town find scum. Period. Nothing in the content of the questions OR the possible answers will do ANYTHING to help town find scum. Period. Yet they're buddying up early on saying that PM is scum based on his answers. Ridiculous. And Scummy.

Differences of opinion. What makes you think the questions and answers weren't able to do so? Now

you

aren't explaining properly.

REMOVED KCDA RELATED QUOTE

@Maruchan: Please explain your, shall I say, "hyperness"? I know you have a lot of things to respond to,

but it does remind me of a certain scum that also seemed extremely townish. Tomie knows what I'm talking about.

Cobblefone: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for that reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.

Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.

Cobblerfone: Scum based off of the wall I posted and his lack of reaction.

Excuse me if I like to keep my posts wider than they are tall. Plus, I knew that if I refuted your case "point by point" it would lead to back and forth tunneling posts.

First of all, bolded is proof positive that Cobbler lied about my first point. He specifically remembers that game (it wasn't long ago.) Tomie was in it too...she was the doctor and I SMOKED her (Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)

As for the italicized bit, he's attempting to justify his lack of defense against a reasonable (in my opinion) case against him.

I remember the game. Do you remember

exactly

what happened in the last three games you finished? Because there's two games between this one and Newbie 1116 for me. The italicized is what's happening between you and me right now. And it is friggin' annoying, it's reminding me of my first newbie game. And I hardly use "friggin'".

REMOVED KCDA QUOTES

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

VOTE: Hiplop

To follow my own advice.

So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.

After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.

And even outright admits it.

1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.

Reverse WIFOM? Really? Honestly? Those were ALL valid points against you Cobbler, and REVERSE WIFOM is the best defense you can think of?

I covered this. "Anti-scum WIFOM" refers to Quilford's post. That's why there's a dividing-bar there.

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.

To elaborate: Suppose a goon/roleblocker, the doc, and the watcher all target the cop. Now the Watcher risks exposing the doc and himself, possibly getting the doc lynched and himself nightkilled. We do get one scum lynched, but we lose

two

PRs. Three if you count the cop. And if we have four there's a ninja that makes the fourth useless anyway.

This post is useless. Fluff. Pointless. AND scummy.

Why is it useless? It elaborated on a prior statement.

1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.

And how many of those games ended in a town win? Taking too much time can suck the life out of town.

3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?

Enough for a D1 lynch.

@muffin: i think meta is a terrible arguement...

Meta is the best argument.

This is one of the first posts indicating that Cobbler is more interested in lynching than he is in actually lynching SCUM. It's scummy behavior. Why WOULDN'T you want all the time necessary to pick the BEST lynch? You've had misgivings about ALL your reads, you said so yourself that you don't really trust your reads. He's trying to end the day because he knows that town is the most popular wagon and he wants to secure a mislynch.

BECAUSE OF NEWBIE 1116! GAH! THIS IS WHY I AM MAD AT YOU. MY READS ARE NOT LOCKED IN PLACE ONCE D1 ENDS. MY POSTS THIS DAY ARE PROOF ENOUGH.

Is Maru's wagon going to go up? 'cause I'm in if so.

See? And to think if the day was over, you wouldn't have had this opportunity to pick someone more scummy. Now what was all that 'let's end the day already' nonsense?

If his wagon hadn't gone up and instead we had lynched sooner, or if we had lynched him immediately on the next page, you wouldn't have had to have read all of these pages.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

Post 297, page 12. Nothing that appears terrible at first. He got me as a town read, which means that he believes hiplop is town. Pairing us up as scum was pushing us, but calling us both town because of something town I did really makes no sense. Stay tuned for futher contradictions.

@Projectmatt: No, of course it isn't vice-versa. I'd prefer if the people on Hiplop voted you or Maruchan. Or, that's what I wrote in this response, but after I read that exchange between you and Kc,

I think you're town

, meaning hiplop is probably lazy-town (or incredibly weird scum).

Post 397, two posts after Cobbler's "hiplop is town" thing. Just a straight up contradiction after calling hiplop town. Go re-read his "experience" with Muffin. It's on page 16. It makes no sense for his mind to be sporadically changed.

Did I have a town read on you at that point? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

What about that bolded bit? That came directly from one of your posts.

@Projectmatt: I checked my ISO; there is no indication that I thought you were town at that point.

Must not have read post #297. *shrug*

I blame the way he setup the quotes. It made it look like the quote on top was 297 and the bottom one was 397. In fact, once I'm done I'm going to see that actually is 297 and what is supposed to be contradictory.

However, I put zMM as scummier on my list with very similar intentions. The first person to question it, "Hey! You never said zMM was any scummier until just now! What gives?" would prove they are reading the thread closely. This one worked out as intended, and as a result I find Junpei to be all but confirmed town. If everyone really hates how I'm doing this though, I'll stop.

You're saying you did a scummish thing on purpose to find out who's paying attention. Despite the fact that the

mafia would be looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

I'm not buying it. For one it's anti-town in a way that I can't see town doing, for two it doesn't make any sense at all. Paying attention does not confirm someone as town. Especially since you've already done a "test" that could put the mafia on their toes.

How is coming out with a plan that successfully netted him someone who's by his estimation now confirmed town? And no one even had to die to confirm it! Why are you so against someone reading someone else as town? And further, why do you care how he plays the game? It's not like he tried to derail one of your wagons, or is suspecting you in any way, or did anything to harm town. This is a classic example of exactly what he's talking about. Mafia looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

Can I not question the method? Again if I said "My muffin had peanuts in it this morning. That means you have to be town." Would you not call me out on it. This is the scummiest point against you.

What's amazing is that he's still alive...and still acting scummy. It's time for him to go guys. Cobbler, it sucks that we haven't gotten to play on the same team yet. Maybe next time bro.

Look at him, being all coy because he

knows

we're not on the same team.

Same format as above.

1. I don't understand, is this supposed to be a response to his argument or did you just want to say some stuff?

2. Because that was

such

a strong tell that you had to keep it under your hat, right?

3. That isn't even the point.

4. Did this have a point?

5. Already covered this.

6. Not scummy, as previously stated, only unnecessary.

7. This does nothing to answer the case against you, it's just seemingly random yelling.

8. I fail to see your point here. Less content is good? Sure, this might be a slightly hellish process, but we have a lot of content from most that can prove quite useful later n the game.

9. I don't see your point. The numbering is confusing, but the contradiction is still there.

10. Your reasoning for questioning the method is what is questionable.

Spoiler:

Ask and ye shall receive. His case and responses are spoilered out for clarity's sake. Each of his points have a roman numeral that corresponds to my response on the bottom.

I) He missed the mark entirely in defending this point. I was pointing out that he was lying. I don't care who does or doesn't think lurking is a scum tell. The fact of the matter is that he lied to town saying he'd never experienced lurker scum, in my opinion to further his agenda.

I. Did. Not. Lie. Explain how this post (lie or not) can further this "agenda" of which you speak.

II) Whether it's part of his personality or not, it's a known fact that scum, unless they're extremely good, will flounder around and refuse to commit to opinions about even the most trivial of things. In this case, he was floundering around about 'taking note' of something. Seriously? And for the record, someone commenting on their own meta is meaningless because if they're scum, they could just be lying or deliberately leaving out parts.

So if you use meta on player how can they defend themselves without meta? (I believe I used the wrong word to describe my scumself anyway, I'm not brash, more like firm?)

The second part isn't a good reason at all. First, RVS is RANDOM VOTING STAGE…meaning that even scum aren't trying to 'drop town tells' or anything because everyone's vote is 'random' and it doesn't matter what we do. And furthermore, what's to stop scum from using that 'town-tell' (which, by the way, is still "he FoS'd someone in its own post") the rest of the game? It's nonsense.

It wasn't a vote. It wasn't random. Who's ever heard of a random FoS? It's only a towntell for RVS really.

IV) Actually, yes…I remember what's happened in all the games I've been in, scum OR town. It's part of playing the game…you have to remember

certain

things in order to be successful.

That's part of recognizing patterns. But very few people have a perfect memory. Especially if it was of something they disliked.

VI) I find it telling that you removed the Kcda quotes in spite of the fact that I left them in there. Why not leave them in there and be like 'WTF are these Kcda quotes doing in a case against me?' My guess? Because you didn't want a connection to be drawn between you and Kcda, but didn't want to be accused of altering my case…so you removed the quotes and indicated specifically that you did so…allowing town to draw their own conclusions.

I removed them because they have nothing to do with me. There is no connection between me and Kcda. Your points about the supposed connection between me and him are pretty meh-filler.

VII) While it's true that I thought anti-scum WIFOM was part of your defense against those points, the fact remains that you didn't defend against those points at all. For instance, WHY should we start wrapping things up at 18 pages on d1? And how in the [heck] is admitting that you sheeped Muffin a defense against someone claiming you admitted that you sheeped Muffin?

1) Because long days drain the life out of the town and the game in general.
2) What defense? Sheeping ain't a scumtell.
3) I am not scum. See point 2.

VIII) And in what way was the original post helpful in any way? It looks to me like you're trying to look like you're contributing when you're not contributing anything at all.

No it was an afterthought. This is not a good point, my post was not a scumtell in any way.

IX) My point was that he was more interested in lynching and ending the day than he was in actually finding scum. Do you see a defense of that point anywhere? All I see is him defending why he wanted to end the day. Nothing about 'No, I thought my read was accurate and was pushing to get him lynched'. Just 'Yeah, I wanted to end the day…and I'm mad at YOU about it! GRRRRRZ AtE GRRRRRZZZ

Yes, I wanted to end the day. Long days drain the life out of town; they're more detrimental than a mislynch. And if they're combined with a mislynch it made it pointless.

X) Actually, I would, because these pages would have been taken up with the following day and I'd still have to read them. Because I'm town. That's what town does. Reads the whole thread and finds the most likely scum candidate based on WHAT HE'S READ.

1) No, because the pages wouldn't exist.
2) No, that's what dedicated players do, town or scum. It doesn't make sense for scum to not read the thread anymore than for town. Heck, we've had discussion on the amished-tell which involves scum reading things that town supposedly don't.

XI) I blame the fact that you were lying to town TWICE. You've been caught in a contradiction. Call it what it is. You told town that you never thought PM was town. You then lied and said that you ISO'd yourself and that in fact you never stated as much in thread. Which was a lie. As I illustrated. I don't care how his QUOTES lined up, you said you ISO'd yourself. That was a lie. How was

I

able to find it when I didn't even say it?

I honestly don't remember if we had the "real" numbers in ISOs yet or if I just didn't look. I read up to the top quote. I didn't have a town read up to that quote. I did not lie.

XII) Please, do so. Ask him why he did it that way. Ask him how the fact that he did it that way gave him that read. I'm all about that. But you didn't do that. You called him scummy for it. EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE SAYING HE WAS PLAYING INTO.

Um. Didn't I? I asked him if that specific thing gave him a read, he answered, I said no that doesn't make sense, and he was free to respond with how it makes sense.

1. Well for starters it could be a way for you to reasonably deny the danger of lurker scum. If you've never experienced it, you wouldn't know how deadly it can be.

2. Well you could provide actual examples of your meta and let people judge whether or not it is true. But you could just as easily play against your own meta in that sense. But just saying that something is your meta is not a great argument. What you can do though is prove a meta argument against you wrong by presenting a counter-point from your previous experience.

3. How is an FoS during RVS a town tell though? If he has a vote down, it either means he's got two suspicions that early and it's not a random vote so your point is moot or he is leaving a random vote while he has somebody he actually suspects.

4. But it's impossible for us to tell what you remember or not, we know only what you say and what you said was that you had never experienced lurker scum, which is untrue apparently and all we have is your word that you forgot it happened.

5. I'm actually inclined to agree here. The connections presented are weak at best.

6.1. But they are sometimes necessary to come to the right conclusion.

6.2. It most certainly can be.

6.3. That's debatable, as seen here.

7. Agreed.

8. Completely disagreed. There is so much to be gained from a long day, because there is so much content. Ending in a mislynch doesn't make t pointless because now you can look back and see what wagons were derailed and by who and which people were most vocal in the mislynch and how valid there reasons were, etc.

9.1. That's debatable. Considering when he replaced in, we'd probably have approximately the same amount of pages, though we might be on a later day.

9.2. I can't completely argue against that, but I generally believe that town tend to put more effort into their reading overall, because they need to actually find scum and make cases against them. Scum need only get a general idea of what is going on and jump on a popular wagon when replacing in. At least, that's how I see it.

10. We did have real numbers at that point, because we've had them at least as long as I've been playing. Why would you only read up to the top quote?

11. I don't remember it happening that way.

Spoiler:

Until you go point by point explaining how each is a nulltell I won't believe you as I see scum tells. The cobbler case is well built, and the fact that he is responding to scum tells as "no they are not" is telling if you are wrong.

A nulltell is a tell that both scum and town can do. Let's go through the points you thought were valid and see how many of them are null:

Cobblerfone's first point isn't even a direct answer to the argument laid out by VisceraEyes, he definitely contradicted himself and Viscera's point remains valid.

(I'm assuming this refers to the "Never seen lurker scum comment") Forgetting or not agreeing or a combination of both is not a scumtell, and is not unbelievable. I know, because it's a fact.

Cobblerfone's second point is basically him saying his personality is waffling, which isn't a personality, that is covering for a scumtell by saying something is that we can't ever prove isn't (or is, for that matter). Secondly, the issue here cobbler is that you had a town read on someone "so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is over", and you stalled your reasoning on it. Then when you finally did reason it, it was a small town tell, if that even. I believe you're talking about this as his brashness (how is that a display of brashness?) and this as his single post Fos (how is that a town tell?). This is a poor reason, and Viscera's point remains valid.

Viscera contradicts himself on this point later where he then says that I'm scum because I called another player scum for using an awful towntell, but using a poor (in your opinion) towntell, (especially in RVS) is not a scumtell. Hmm... Ya know, I just noticed something.

Cobblerfone's third point is poor as well. He is saying that he also sees what kcdaspot sees in PM's answers to 3 and 4 (I highly disagree that there was anything wrong with them, but that aside...) cobbler never explained why they were wrong. For those of you who have forgotten, these were PM's answers. There is nothing really wrong with them at all, in fact there is nothing to really say about them. Later, kcdaspot elaborates that he means it is the tone and that while Links' answers weren't trying to be friendly, PM is. Which, is completely stupid. It isn't a matter of opinion, cobbler, it is a matter of fact. Viscera's point remains valid.

Cobblerfone's fourth point is that he remembers that there was a certain scum who was townish, but not that there was a certain scum that was lurking, even though he commented on the latter in game. I don't buy it, Viscera's point remains valid

Which playstyle am I more likely to remember and place more significance on: The guy who's too towny-to-be-town scum that posts HUGE walls, or lurker scum who actually does post regularly? I mean, it's not like he prod-dodged all the time. He didn't did he?

Cobblerfone's sixth point isn't something I agree with because it is elaborating on a point that didn't need to be elaborated on, and he does it in a second post, for no reason. But it isn't that big of a deal, and unless viscera was planning on posting libraries of fluff from cobblerfone, it isn't necessary to the case.

I posted it in a second post because I realized that I better explain myself. Again, null.

I'll have to look up points 7-9.

1. I disagree. Town can drop scumtells and scum can drop towntells, it's just less likely then the other way around. A nulltell is so common from both sides that it can't be said either way.

2. Covered already.

3-5. Both would stick with me. How are you going to forget any kind of scum that slipped past you?

6. It was unnecessary though and that point remains.

[Hikari Link]

Posting drunk is a bad idea. But I have decided.

vote: Copplerfone

It's probably a good thing that Junpei unvoted...

Likewise, I'll follow suit until Cobblerfone makes his claim, as we now have sufficient numbers for a lynch.

UNVOTE: Cobblerfone

[Hikari Link]

Now I must wonder if singersigner saw my unvote or not. All is well I suppose.

She claims drunkenness; I'd be surprised if she read much of anything. Still, looks like it was best that you unvoted.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: BBmolla

I'm open to discussion, but we'll have to make it quick, since we're down to under a week.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: BBmolla

I'm open to discussion, but we'll have to make it quick, since we're down to under a week.

Go read my case and also notice how quiet kcdaspot has gotten as his buddy was hung up for the lynch.

I've seen your case and I'm not particularly sold, as I've previously stated. I also mentioned not particularly agreeing with VE's points during the Cobbler case. If the deadline looms and the options are a Kc lynch and no lynch, then I'll accept the Kc lynch, but right I'm far more satisfied with a BBmolla lynch and I am to understand that you also have something of a scum read on BBmolla, so why not come over to the BBmolla wagon? I can't promise punch or pie or any bullshit like that, but it's a wagon that I believe in and I'm pretty sure it'll land us scum.

[Hikari Link]

@Viscera:

Why no comment on my proof that Cymru wasn't a lurker on D1?

When did you prove that?

[Hikari Link]

1. I don't believe that you just forgot

2. How did he contradict himself? Seems like you were the one who contradicted yourself.

3. Well if I"m about to make a proclamation such as "never seen lurking scum", I would have to be certain about it, or close to certain.

1. I'm so tired of this point I decided to look it up to see if it's even correct. During D1 in that game posted at least once every day, while frequently skipping one day. The longest he went without posting was four days, which happened once.

2. Yes, I acknowledged that, he still contradicts himself with point ten.

3. I don't even need a three.

That doesn't seem like proof. You are telling us only how much he posted, not what he posted. Was he active lurking?

[Hikari Link]

I didn't say inactive, I said lurky. You commented on it yourself in that game Cobbler, stop trying to misrepresent my case and just die please.

We're dealing with two definitions here: The normal internet definition of "lurking" which I used in that game. And the mafia definition of "lurking" which is "not posting" which since it was a question from another player, I assumed that's what was meant.

1. I don't believe that you just forgot

2. How did he contradict himself? Seems like you were the one who contradicted yourself.

3. Well if I"m about to make a proclamation such as "never seen lurking scum", I would have to be certain about it, or close to certain.

1. I'm so tired of this point I decided to look it up to see if it's even correct. During D1 in that game posted at least once every day, while frequently skipping one day. The longest he went without posting was four days, which happened once.

2. Yes, I acknowledged that, he still contradicts himself with point ten.

3. I don't even need a three.

That doesn't seem like proof. You are telling us only how much he posted, not what he posted. Was he active lurking?

The question that I answered in this game where the whole controversy comes from didn't specify "active lurking".

Fair enough. pm did specifically exclude active lurking from his question.

[Hikari Link]

Oh, and hi. RVS is pointless and never gives me the reads I look specifically for.

Just one question for all of you:

1.

Is lurking (

not active lurking

, lurking as in "not talking a lot") a null tell or a scum tell?

[Hikari Link]

Jesus Christ, okay. I concede that due to misunderstandings and misnomers that my ONE point about Cobbler lying is technically refuted. Congratulations. The rest are valid however and his play has been scummy as SHIT in my opinion. My vote stays until deadline. If a no-lynch is looming, I'll switch to Kcda.

I've seen scummy players as PRs before. The fact that you would leave your vote on an uncounter-claimed Cop without even giving him a chance to prove his mettle is just dumb.

VE, we need to keep cobbler alive for a night, it is pro town to do so given his claim. Vote kcdaspot.

Link, I don't know what to say other than kcdaspot is scum for reasons stated. Who are your top 4 scum reads? BBmolla isn't someone I want to lynch anymore, I'm seeing a kcdaspot - empking - cobblerfone connection going on and since cobbler claimed cop, I want to go after kcdaspot.

Cobbler
BBmolla
Singersigner
zMuffinMan

What is the nature of this connection you see and what does it mean to you if any one of these people flip town? I'm far more concerned with BBmolla's apparent "acceptance" of his fate. Really, it's done nothing but draw votes away from him. The more vocally he sings of his demise, the less people want to lynch him. It displeases me that such a ridiculous ploy is working so well. I mean really, what good has he been since he has "accepted" his demise? I believe true town would be quick to dispense whatever bits of wisdom they have before their death, yet we have almost nothing from him since then. Casual posts here or there, with like half proclaiming that he's ready to die or that we should get on with lynching him. This is just no good to me.

[Hikari Link]

Before I log off for the night I just want to make sure we're all agreed:

N2; Tonight

Doctor: Targets me
Watcher: Targets me
Tracker: Targets somebody else

N3; If I'm still alive

Doctor: Decides for themselves
Watcher: Decides for themselves
Tracker: Decides for themselves

Not sure why you feel the need to mention Night 3. If your dead, it doesn't matter and if you are alive, we can decide on that when the time comes.

[Hikari Link]

no. Tracker targets cobblerfone, doctor targets random.

Explain.

[Hikari Link]

What if mafia have an RB? Then the Watcher has 2 visits and one is the mafia, and then he gets confused.

No, only directing one person on top the watcher to the cop is best move.

I don't see it. The way you have it, if he's the Roleblocker, he'll clear himself tonight by targeting anybody and claiming them innocent.

If just the Doctor and Watcher are on him, he is far less likely to die, I think. The Mafia would either have to send the Ninja or take a huge risk to target him with the Watcher on him and they'd have to gamble on a Doctor not existing too, lest they miss a night kill.

With Tracker and Watcher, if Both exist and there is a Ninja, it implicates the Tracker and if both exist and there is no Ninja, we'll have to trade the Tracker and the Watcher for 1 Mafioso.

With all of them on him, then it creates a shit storm. And that's not even counting if the Mafia send both the Roleblocker and a Goon in fear of a possible Doctor. Then if Cobbler lives, they have guys who can claim all kinds of PRs.

On the other hand, if he is scum, No amount of PRs on him is likely to prove very helpful. A Watcher will see a Ttracker and/or Doctor and Cobbler will claim he was roleblocked or if he's the Roleblocker, that he investigated who he blocked, or as a Goon that the guy he investigated was killed. Though the final one puts the most amount of suspicion on him.

Tracker should be off him. Doctor off him too.

So then you'd just leave him to die if he's town? And if he's not, you'll just let him run rampant?

I have a novel idea.

Stop trying to direct power roles.

I hate people who say this. Directing PRs is a great idea if a solid plan can be formed. If PRs are directionless, they are often far less useful than if there is a solid plan. PRs for the most part should be used as tools of the town.

Link, it is basically Empking's iso. He has made clear connections to them, and kcdaspot and cobbler seem to be distancing.

But BBmolla /did/ claim VT a long time ago... damnit. I'm not sure maybe we can lynch BBmolla, I just don't think he fits with my picture I have in my head. Definitely do not want to lynch a PR.

How is Empking not scummy to you?

Because he's not really scummy. Wrong, yes. Scummy, no. He strikes me as dangerous if he is scum because his style makes him hard to read, but just how he reads isn't scummy. I think it's more to do with your own notions of what town should do than anything else. We've seen it with Glowball and others too, you have a certain standard for how you think town must act and if they act outside of those parameters, then you take them for scum. I think that Kc and Empking fall under this category. It's true that everyone has their own notions of what town should and shouldn't/would and wouldn't do, but your scale is far stricter than most in my opinion and that can sometimes lead to you have some unlikely scum reads. Now granted, they could very well be scum, Empking especially has been null for me this whole game, but perhaps that isn't the case? If one should die and flip town, does your whole case fall apart? If so, then there is a problem,with your case. If nt, then it can send us down the path of ruin. This is the main folly of team hunting.

That's not to say that we shouldn't look for connections, but at the same time, we should not base cases solely on them. If your main case against Kc is distancing Cobbler, but Cobbler flips Cop, what goes that say of Kc? And what if Cobbler lives but Kc flips town? And what if Kc flips scum? Does that mean we should go after Cobbler, even though he's claimed Cop? And where does Empking fit in? Does him flipping scum or town incriminate or excuse the others? There's so many factors when these little connections start to take root and the players are not themselves individually scummy. Now granted, in this case Cobbler is obviously scummy and Kc could be viewed as scummy, but as near as I can tel, there is nothing particularly incriminating about Empking other then that you see connections to Kc and Cobbler, who I have a town read on and may be the Cop, respectively. As such, I don't particularly see the scum argument. Compare that to BBmolla, who has been independently scummy for the major portion of this game. Rather than trying to solve the entire puzzle on Day 2 and heading down a path to ruin as we attempt to find who in your selected sample of players is scummy, I prefer attempting to find the most independently scummy players as they appear day to day, lest scum use the perceived connections against us. Respond to this and tell me what you would do to avoid these dangers and then we might be able to further discuss the possibility of a non-BBmolla lynch.

[Hikari Link]

I have a novel idea.

Stop trying to direct power roles.

I hate people who say this. Directing PRs is a great idea if a solid plan can be formed. If PRs are directionless, they are often far less useful than if there is a solid plan. PRs for the most part should be used as tools of the town.

There

is

no "solid" plan, especially given that this set-up is only semi-open. This set-up is designed to give scum the exact roles necessary to nullify any and every plan we make until the relevant scum role is dead.

For example.

1.)

Directing Tracker to Cobblerfone is useless. If the Tracker sees Cobblerfone target somebody, that could either mean (i) he is indeed a Cop who was

not

role-blocked, or (ii) he is the Mafia Roleblocker who blocked the player he claimed to have investigated. If the Tracker does not see Cobblerfone target anybody, that could either mean (i) he is indeed a Cop but was role-blocked, or (ii) he is Mafia who did not submit a night action.

And of course, if Cobblerfone is Town and dies, then having a Tracker target Cobblerfone is even more useless.

2.)

A Watcher should ideally watch somebody they think is going to die. That said, this is literally the

only

directing that can be arguably be seen as helpful, and that is only because Watcher is such a strong role. There are multiple ways a Watcher can catch somebody in a lie; but on that same front, telling the Mafia who a Watcher will be targeting tells the scum precisely how to avoid being caught in such a lie.

3.)

By directing the Doctor, you are essentially telling the scum they can kill any player besides Cobblerfone without having to worry in the least. And if Cobblerfone is Mafia, then this literally opens up the entire Town.

~

This set-up is designed to

punish

mass-claiming, and designed to

punish

planning up until the town can kill the relevant scum power roles (Ninja / Roleblocker). The more we tell the scum about the Night Phase, the more they will know exactly how to counteract it.

Try playing the game to

catch scum

instead of trying to create a night-web of actions that is easily severed.

The point isn't to create a web, it's to limit the options of the Mafia. While it's true we leave the whole town open if we have the Doctor on the Cop, at the same time, we help keep the Cop alive, which is not a bad thing. The Watcher is likewise more apt to catch scum targeting the Cop. The Tracker I already said I think is less than useful in this situation, but the other PRs are about as likely to prove useful if they are left to their own devices as if they target Cobbler, the difference is we have more to gain if Cobbler is the Cop.

See Newbie 1119 as to why PR plans are good. We aren't trying to 100% confirm people here, just doing the safe thing with benefits.

I'm not sure that game demonstrates fully the usefulness of tactical PR planning. I mean, town won, but that seems more like showing the folly of having PRs

not

listening.

[Hikari Link]

3.) By directing the Doctor, you are essentially telling the scum they can kill any player besides Cobblerfone without having to worry in the least. And if Cobblerfone is Mafia, then this literally opens up the entire Town.

This isn't true. I want to direct the Doc but this isn't a result of my plan.

Cobbler: Not scum.
Hi Link: Read my other post.

I read it and my comment was based on it, there was just no point in quoting it.

[Hikari Link]

3.) By directing the Doctor, you are essentially telling the scum they can kill any player besides Cobblerfone without having to worry in the least. And if Cobblerfone is Mafia, then this literally opens up the entire Town.

This isn't true. I want to direct the Doc but this isn't a result of my plan.

Cobbler: Not scum.
Hi Link: Read my other post.

I read it and my comment was based on it, there was just no point in quoting it.

The Watcher is enough protection. If there ends up not being a Watcher and scum risk it then there's not really that much of a loss. (Oh yeah if the doctor doesn't doctor him then the RB can't RB him.)

And if there is a Ninja?

[Hikari Link]

Oh wait, I see what you mean. If there's a ninja then scum have no reason not to kill cobbler if he's real.

Eh, okay I think that doc + tracker on cop and watcher on anyone is fine. Agreed?

But the Watcher could get some good information if he watched to. For example, if there is no death, Cobbler gets a result, and three people visit him, then that means if anyone but one of those three claimed a PR, they would be scum.

[Hikari Link]

Oh wait, I see what you mean. If there's a ninja then scum have no reason not to kill cobbler if he's real.

Eh, okay I think that doc + tracker on cop and watcher on anyone is fine. Agreed?

But the Watcher could get some good information if he watched to. For example, if there is no death, Cobbler gets a result, and three people visit him, then that means if anyone but one of those three claimed a PR, they would be scum.

I don't think it's a terrible idea. If nothing else, the Watcher stands to gain some good info and if we play our cards right, scum will never be able to fake-claim.

Hi Link: I think its worth it.

I don't.

[Hikari Link]

Yea, HL and I definitely came up with the same plan.

Needless to say, I'm on board with it.

It's not the same plan because you would have the Tracker not visit him, which would be less than helpful if he is scum.

[Hikari Link]

Wait, I got the impression the tracker shouldn't follow the cop.

No, because then if he's scum, we wouldn't know. We could honestly even direct who Cobbler investigated, just to be certain he doesn't squander it, but I'd rather not push our luck and he might be more or less likely to die depending on who we name. But if the Tracker should claim he visited nobody but he returns with a result or that he visited one person when he really visited another or something of that nature. Also, then we have the Watcher who knows every town PR, so if someone who was not one of the people who targeted Cobbler should claim and the Watcher is still alive, he could claim and we'd catch scum.

[Hikari Link]

But shenanigans ensue if we don't have a doctor and the mafia sends the ninja to kill Cobbler. I mean, then the tracker's report is worthless and our watcher would be likely to claim saying that the only other person who visited Cobbler is mafia (when he really is a tracker). I mean, I don't even think this is me being biased because I think Cobbler's town. This could seriously fuck over the game.

If only one person should visit him and he dies, then perhaps the Watcher should just not claim? He can just keep the info underwraps until the right time, right?

[Hikari Link]

I suppose so. Alright I'm down.

Also can we lynch BBmolla today? Besides being extremely scummy, he's already claimed so we aren't putting a 2nd PR at risk.

Well I obviously agree.

[Hikari Link]

How possible is a scumteam that includes both BB AND Kcda?

More or less anything is possible. I doubt it, personally, but it would certainly be a very convincing bus.

[Hikari Link]

If there is a cop cc, you should absolutely 100% counterclaim Cobblerfone today. When you are town and scum claim your role, you counterclaim them so that you lynch the mafia that day (aka the single-best outcome for your win-condition).

THIS, I don't know who said 'if you're a cop, don't cc' but whoever said it was probably scum. We need to lynch MAFIA.

Now, it seems like the ACTIVE majority of the town wants a BB lynch. I still don't get much of a scum feeling from BB. Has anyone posted a decent case against him? Kcda's case was a joke...so surely it's not based on his. Are we lynching him because he's been mostly inactive?

I've made many posts on the issue, so feel free to check my ISO for those cases.

[Hikari Link]

LInk, we have very few days left.

I see you there, post either saying that you're going to be defiant and vote BB or you'll concede to voting kcdaspot. I would much rather the latter, we are deciding right now, amongst us active players who will die today, so post please.

What part of "I'm on my phone and I'll only post when necessary" don't you understand? It's not necessary right now because I have no intention of voting Kcdaspot and I think the whole lot of you are fools. I'll vote Kc only if it's that or no lynch because I'm not so conceited as VE to presume it's okay to waste the day when I could full well be wrong, but I'm not fool enough to jump on a wagon I don't believe in just because a couple of people tell me to.

[Hikari Link]

Alright Link. Lets see if BBmolla is an option or not. Less AtE please, I'm sure you're stressed out with whatever it is you're doing, but I don't see why you're lashing out at me for it.

VE, will you vote BBmolla for the sake of ending the day on a lynch other than the unccd cop? I feel like our PR plan is helpful even if there are no PRs because it forces that fact out eventually or forces lots of mafia fakeclaims. I think we'd be able to scumhunt through the latter option. Or will you be defiant and vote kcdaspot? Assume cobbler isn't an option (he's not).

1. It's not AtE and I was lashing out at no one, simply stating my opinion.

2. As to whether I think he's scum, the answer is no, but I see why people are concerned. He actually reminds me a bit of Juls in Mafia in Canada, where you'll recall she wasn't scum. Or have you forgotten that game already?

[Hikari Link]

Meta isn't everything. Just sayin.

Then it's a good thing I didn't mention meta. I just noted the similarity of his playstyle to that of another player, as that's more or less the main thing I'd call particularly scummy about him.

[Hikari Link]

You can't use meta from person x for person y. For all you know, person x plays scum the same way person y plays town.

Just saying.

That's not what I'm doing, I'm simply pointing out that it's a playstyle I've seen from town before, so I have no reason to assume it's scummy.

Link, you're using resources from outside the game (knowledge of a previous game from another player) to affect your decisions in this game. That's metagaming my friend.

Yeah, if we were playing D&D. Meta has a different context here and refers to making judgment on a player based on how they have played roles in the past. Here I'm saying that his playstyle isn't a scumtell. It's no more meta than any other tells.

[Hikari Link]

Link... that game is different than this one. They are two different players, the environment is completely different. Other than you and me, everything is different.

Regardless, just about every playstyle has been used as scum and town, I would go into more detail but it's too much theory.

Is meta the primary reason for not feeling scum on kcdaspot?

No, the main reason is that he doesn't read like scum to me.

[Hikari Link]

@PM: I'm confirmed town fmpov.

Yes, but what about from the point of view of everyone else? Assuming you are town, which I doubt, do you not see why people would think you are scummy?

Empking has been tunneling me.
KillerJester has been tunneling me.
KCDA was tunneling me.
Link gives me funny feelings.
And I think Cobbler is scum.

If there is not at least one scum in here, then I'm a turkey with lobster claws and a taco for a face.

I"m not sure what "funny feelings" I give you, but I hope they aren't in your pants. But in all seriousness,what are these funny feelings? Explain them, because if you are lynched here and you are town, you would want to leave behind something to help the town, right? But like I've been saying this entire time, you just dick around whenever you are in a corner like this instead of providing actual content and that is one of the key reasons I think you're scum. Instead of real. helpful content you come in here and state that you think scum is on your wagon. News flash, smart guy: scum is usually on every large wagon. If it's not someeone trying to bus, it's someone tying to mislynch. We've still got 4 scum in this game and unless they are all grouping up because they think Kcdaspot is the biggest threat to them in the game, then it's really quite likely that they are somewhere on here, be it because you are being bussed or this is actually a mislynch, it would not really come as a surprise.

BB: Why is tuinneling scummy?

You're prably right, Hi Link is scum. But so are you.

I assume it would be asking too much to get some actual reasoning there, huh?

[Hikari Link]

Jarvert voted off of kcdaspot for no good reason, it is now even more interesting to have a kcdaspot lynch, and I encourage it that much more.

We are almost at 100 pages, so I think we need to get votes on kcdaspot now. He was at l-1, lets get him back there.

I'm fairly certain he

is

at L-1.

[Hikari Link]

I have no idea what the votecount is, but just keep voting him, Link are you voting him?

I am not unless it is necessary to avoid a no lynch. But I notice you aren't voting him.

[Hikari Link]

Wait, I"m not currently voting kcdaspot? I thought I had revoted him.

vote: kcdaspot

In case he is actually at L-2 or something.

No, you never did and he wasn't at L-2, not that it particularly matters. I guess now we just wait for the flip. Kc, any last words?

[Hikari Link]

There should be no disagreement with this. KJ was with me saying the tracker targeting the cop could be confusing, and Javert said he wasn't going to listen to plans if he was a PR anyway.

I'm still not following the reasoning.

[Hikari Link]

It's so if they're mafia and are seen by the watcher they can't fakeclaim tracker, in case they don't have a ninja and fakeclaim tracker while claiming it was a ninja that killed me.

Yeah, I see it now. I had forgotten that you had specifically pointed them out as your suspects. I thought you were just picking people at random.

[Hikari Link]

Cobbler, why would you have an issue with me specifically tracking you, assuming I had that power?

It's so if they're mafia and are seen by the watcher they can't fakeclaim tracker, in case they don't have a ninja and fakeclaim tracker while claiming it was a ninja that killed me.

Yeah, I see it now. I had forgotten that you had specifically pointed them out as your suspects. I thought you were just picking people at random.

Seriously. He was at L-1 and you decide to switch to someone at L-4?

Nope. Kcda was L-2 and BBmolla was at L-3. Now it's quite the opposite, which is

directly

in line with his read that BBmolla is scummier. But thanks for trying to misrepresent him. Scumhunter, wanna jump on this BBmolla wagon now?

Currently:
BBmolla L-2
Kcda L-3

KJ/Kcda/Javert/fourth?

VOTE: Kcdaspot

Scumhunter, wanna jump on this BBmolla wagon now?

Scumhunter = 4th?

[Hikari Link]

Link, there's no way that you are fooled by that, are you?

If cobbler is mafia then those reads are fabricated, and he essentially makes an excuse to have 4 people not target him if tracker. As town the reasons aren't necessary either, we should play it safe, and force tracker on the guy whom town found scummy enough to take to L-1.

I didn't say I agreed with it, I merely said I understand the reasoning. I'm fine with the Tracker on him no matter what.

[Hikari Link]

They don't have any idea of the setup anyway. And they know that depending on the circumstances the tracker is amongst those three anyway.

But if the Tracker and Doctor are on you for sure and we have a Watcher, then nobody but the people who target you tonight can claim Tracker or Doctor in the future.

[Hikari Link]

votecount?

Kc has been lynched.

[Hikari Link]

I'm moving, so once I get things situated, I will post. It should be either tomorrow or Saturday. Sorry for the delay.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: BBmolla

Post incoming tonight.

Yeah, that was me.

[Hikari Link]

Upon further inspection, there's really not much for me to comment on, so I'll just direct a few questions towards people.

@pinkfloyd

: Why did you vote BBmolla? What are your reads? Have you even read the entire thread? Why has nobody but Junpei commented on this so far?

@projectmatt

: Could you elaborate on your scum reads? Why do you suspect who you suspect?

@Scumhunter

: Those thoughts you said you were going to post coming anytime soon?

@Javert

: Is your entire case against Junpei that he didn't understand the set up? What was the scum motivation for pretending to be confused?

Just to confirm
VOTE: BBmolla

[Hikari Link]

Lynching Junpei because he confused setup mechanics is terrible. Lynching Junpei when he's towntold frequently beforehand is even worse. We should lynch Singer.

@projectmatt: Could you elaborate on your scum reads? Why do you suspect who you suspect?

Jesus christ, right now my scum list looks like Visecera, Singer, killerjester, and possibly muffin. I've been totally "out" of it this game.

Yeah, you already said those people. I asked for

elaboration

, not reassertion. Why do you suspect these people?

[Hikari Link]

Hikari, what are your thoughts on Singers' vote on me? What about Javerts?

You know better than to call me that... My thoughts on both votes is that they are fairly ridiculous. I don't really know what Javert's deal is and it seems like he's been on your case for a little while. I'm not opposed to scrutinizing people, but I honestly can't understand his case on you. Could be scum trying to get a mislynch on an otherwise hard to lynch townie. Thing is, I've had a town read n him, but his recent policies regarding both you and BBmolla are really starting to make me think otherwise.

I've been suspicious of singer since she came into the game and despite people saying she didn't drop the Amished tell, I've yet to see a satisfactory explanation of why it's not, as it certain lines up with the explanation Amished gave. Aside from that, this also seems like she is going for a mislynch here. I can't be sure whether or not this is a coordinated assault or if it is just an opportunistic play. She hasn't really contributed much this game either which has me suspicious. I mean, granted, I haven't been the most active due to my own problems, but I think that I've definitely provided a good deal of content whenever I can, but I don't think the same can be said about her.

[Hikari Link]

I apologize, Link.

But, it would seem like most of the town is quite strongly of the opinion that I am town, you think that mafia's plan was to come out of the gate Day 3 pushing on my lynch on a minuscule detail?

No, not at all. I just think that Mafia will take any slight mistakes and run with it and I feel like at least one of the people who voted you are opportunistic scum hoping that they can get you mislynched. A day where the Mafia can get an extremely useful and pro-town player mislynched is a great day for scum, I feel, because it takes out a dangerous player to them without lowering the probable mislynch pool. It's the same principle as taking out good players with night kills. But as Scumhunter already put it, there's no reason not to reevaluate you. Though I find with players like you, Javert, and I, it's safest to just evaluate them constantly. Other players post in smaller portions and so you can afford to just look at someone, get a read, then check back later to see how they have changed, but those with very large posts and fairly regular input need to be watched at all times so that they don't pull a fast one on everybody.

I seriously need everyone to vote in their next post, or express the willingness to vote BBmolla (for the sake of not having a lynch yet).

This game is dumb. The people in it are dumb. The tells people are using are dumb. The defenses are dumb. The cases are dumb.

This comment is extremely rude and unnecessary. I notice you've done virtually nothing to help out here.

@Hikari...we've been over the "tell." Acknowledging that your predecessor might have claimed says "oh shit, if they claimed or breadcrumbed, I should definitely know." Acknowledging that their play was bad and apologizing for it says "oh shit, I need to look super extra townie and pretend like they didn't know any better for town cred."

Now. Which is it that I did again?

Ooooooooh... >_>

And I acknowledge that you do have meta that backs up your feelings on that matter and if that alone where the only point against you, I'd probably just drop it, but the fact is that you've been unhelpful and anti-town for pretty much your entire tenure here and just because you've scumtold as town before doesn't mean you can't also drop the same scumtell now as scum.

@Hikari...

Incoming rage.

No, I've given up on her. She's rude and disrespectful. I've asked her not to do it on countless occasions to no avail. I'm pretty sure that she's just trying to get under my skin at this point, which is a scum tactic I am fairly familiar with, so I'm just going to try to ignore it.

I'm actually scum you guys. I'd really rather be lynched than my scum buddy BBmolla. I've protected him for far too long, but honestly, this game sucks, and there's no way that someone would replace into a 105-page game. GG town.

I can't really understand this from any perspective. I mean, I suppose scum could be frustrated with the length of the days and honestly want to die or they could make such an outrageous claim believing that nobody would take it seriously, just as it hasn't been. Tacking on the BBmolla part does nothing to help either. It could just as easily be scum trying to have attention directed from their partner by having people assume it is a lie as it could be trying to get a mislynch.

From a town perspective, it is a bit harder to figure out. It could just be frustration, but I can't really understand how throwing BBmolla in their is a sign of frustration. If she just didn't care, she'd have no reason to include him, which would imply an ulterior motive, though I can't imagine what that motive would be.

How are people going Kj or Emp are scum and BB might be town when scum have been forcing the "lynch BB" to mislynches again and again (Kc and Cobbler). Its pretty obv that we're both town and scum have been playing their hand heavily to save BB. Singer is scum. BB is scum. And the other two will be easy to find once BB flips and we can just lynch off the Kc and Cobbler wagons.

This is why I want to be lynched. This flawed logic is getting us nowhere.

When people insist I'm scum I have a hard time reading because obviously I know I'm not scum making our views different and making them seem to be on an opposite team. I know it's dumb, but, feh. It's just how I work.

So you are saying that your response as town to being called scum is to shut down and start being as useless as possible? Why do I find that hard to swallow?

[quote="In post 2636Killerjester is trying to get me to lynch myself which is just wierd in any situation.

It's not that weird. It would be weird if he said that you are a town read of his. Attempting to get scum to self-vote is a good strategy.

[quote="In post 2636Something about HL still bugs me but I don't think I'll ever be able to find out what that is.

I assume it's OMGUS until you can contrive "evidence" against me.

[Hikari Link]

FERENCE TO SCUM USING IT TO BUS SCUM BECAUSE OF MANIPULATED META. Seriously. The tell refers to APOLOGIZING FOR SCUMMY BEHAVIOR. Not CHECKING FOR CLAIMS.But ding, there you go, I'm still voting for you, right? I think we've found confirmed scum right here for BLATANTLY trying to misrep me. SINCE THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY YOU CAN POSSIBLY COMPLETELY FUCKING INTENTIALLY MISREP SOMEONE LIKE THAT SO BADLY UNLESS YOU WERE SPECIFICALLY SCUM DRIVEN.Unless you're...like...really bad at this game... >_>Seriously. I really need people to vote for fucking someone or name who they're planning on voting for in their next post. That's the only way we're going to fucking get anywhere. GGscumfuckers, your scummy play is so fucking lost in this fucking mess that you're going to win by default of the worst fucking playerlist ever. Fucking-A.

There are examples of it not being used by scum to bus scum. One of the examples I posted orignally was such an example, so your argument is invalid. And it's a scumtell because it's something scum are more lkely to do, not because it's something

you

are more likely to do as scum. And you seriously need to stop with the fucking personal attacks and the blanket insults of every single player in this fucking game. It's not cool.

[Hikari Link]

Can we get a vote count please?

I believe Scumhunter was the hammer, after looking back.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikari...

Incoming rage.

No, I've given up on her. She's rude and disrespectful. I've asked her not to do it on countless occasions to no avail. I'm pretty sure that she's just trying to get under my skin at this point,

which is a scum tactic I am fairly familiar with, so I'm just going to try to ignore it.

Also, I just saw this gem.
First of all, no, it wasn't on purpose, I just think it's petty and ridiculous to make a big deal out of your fucking name. You haven't given people a good reason to get upset over people shortening your name, so why the fuck does it matter? If you can please explain to me, then I might just give a shit, otherwise, when I'm writing a post, I'm not going to take the time to make a big deal out of things that CLEARLY DON'T MATTER.
Second of all, you didn't seem to get this upset over Glowball being this rude and disrespectful. Hmm...

Seriously.

Try focusing on what's important.

@the bolded...you admit you're familiar with this tactic...I'll keep this in mind when I read the rest of your posts because boy, you sure do have a fucking way of getting under my fucking skin.

@CSL...please tell me when I'm done with this game, ok?

Well first of all, I'm fairly certain I did explain it in this thread, because I believe CSL asked me directly in the thread. If not, you can just look at my wiki for a full breakdown of it. Regardless, the fact that a person asks you not to call them something, common courtesy dictates that you oblige them. It's certainly no inconvenience for you to call me HL or Link or some other shortening of your choosing.

Second of all, glowball is an emotional wreck and has to be handled with a certain care or she'd flip out. Junpei was doing a pretty good job of getting through to her, so I left it to him, but then Javert went and fucked it up and before I knew it, everything went to shit with her.

[Hikari Link]

No, BB is at L-1.


BB, PLEASE unvote yourself.

Wrong. CSL didn't count Empking at the last vote count.

[Hikari Link]

My Friday is looking clear, so you guys can expect a very large post from me then. Sorry about the delay.

[Hikari Link]

I'm almost done with my mass ISO. Only 4 players left to go and I'll finish it as soon as I wake up, but I've been working on this for going on 3 hours and I'm about at my limit and need sleep.

[Hikari Link]

Sorry this took so long, but with BBmolla and singer flipping town, I honestly had to reevaluate everything. I think that what we have here is a case of scum skating by all game. I've seen a heavy-lurk scum game before and this reminds me of it. And who was one of those lurkers? Good ol' pinkfloyd, of course.

Empking

: He really is one of the hardest people to read. This post may be a clue to his alignment. I never noticed it in previous ISOs, since I thought BB was scum, but as he's flipped town, then a mislynch could have been his goal the entire time. This post in particular we see him insert himself with two other townies in a vote against a third townie. This could be an attempt to buddy Kc and Maru, two players who, like himself, had playstyles that were viewed by others as scummy. By accepting them as town, he had the chance to make some useful and devoted allies. And by choosing the less obvious town players to buddy, he could avoid suspicion, since scum tend to buddy obvtown to get in good with them, though that's harder to do with a playstyle like that.

Scum.

Javert

: Another tough read. At first, he seemed extremely pro-town, but there are a few things that bother me about him. First of all, his interaction with glowball was entirely unnecessary and he was sharper tan he needed to be. And when it seemed like Junpei was finally going to get through to her, he couldn't swallow his own pride and even pretend to make peace with her. Now this could just be a result of an ego, which Javert definitely has, but on the other hand, it could have been a scum-motivated to frustrate town, as scum are wont to do.

The second strike against him is his wacky case against Junpei yesterday based on not understanding the setup. I don't see how that alone is a case against him.

The third thing that bothers me is that he blatantly refused to explain any of his current reads.

I don't feel that these things should be forgotten, but the way he reads is confident town, rather than slippery scum and Tomie before him seemed pretty town.

Null-town.

Junpei

: There's really no point in even posting all the reasons i think he's town. His interaction with glowball is all you need to see, really. There was just no reason for scum to try as hard as he did to get a list out of her. He was well within his rights to call it quits and vote her, but he stuck with it and tried to get those reads out of her. Aside from that, he's always pushing his hardest on everyone to uncover any sort of foul play. His scumhunting just seems way too genuine.

Town.

killerjester

: As projectmatt pointed out, he's been fairly quiet as of late. He needs to post more content. His thoughts often overlap with my own, which inclines me to believe he is town, but I clearly haven't been right about scum up to this point, so it's possible that he is scum. We'll see what happens when and if he starts posting content again.

Town lean.

pinkfloyd

: I've played with him before and his scum game was very similar to what it is right now. He lurks hard and adds nothing at all to the game. What's wore, he replaced into a slot that has done nothing, so there's nothing to read off of him. Saying that he didn't notice the night ended and that he hasn't finished the game are both shady as hell. He'd already posted today and he was talking about having to reread. He's obviously lurker scum and he needs to go.

Scum.

VOTE: pinkfloyd

projectmatt

: I've been relatively fine with him up until now, but there are a few things that bother me here. I don't like that he was doing ISOs and promised more and then didn't deliver and the Day ended two days later. I expect the rest of those ISOs. Another thing that rubs me wrong is his current reads. Three people under town, one of which is confirmed town, therefore an arbitrary statement, two town leans, and six probable scum. Perhaps we just understand the word probable differently, but I take it to mean people who are likely to be scum. Considering there are 4 scum, it's not possible that 6 people are likely to be scum. Not only these things, but the reasoning behind the reads isn't explained. What I see here are the 5 people least likely to be lynched today and everybody else as probable scum, that's a definite way to keep your options open and it troubles me.

Scum lean

.

Scumhunter

: He's certainly not doing much in his self-appointed department. What we have from him is not much though. For a while, it seemed like he was town when he had a good bit of activity, but now he's just kind of been skating by so far all we've really got from him today is an unexplained list with arbitrary percentages on it, a flimsy vote on Junpei, who he calls obvscum, and a scum list based off of... what exactly?

Null-scum

.

VisceraEyes

: This post needs elaboration. I am aware that at this point it is irrelevant because the slot is dead, but bullet points would be nice. I want to know that you actually had a case there and weren't just saying that you did to seem like town because you were "working hard". There's really nothing worse than implied content, which is to say, content that is never posted because the day ends or the target dies or what have you. It's one of the ways for scum to wriggle out of things while appearing active.

Also, saying that there is zero scumhunting from Scumhunter is simply not true. Voting him because his scumhunting has been lackluster this game and his name is Scumhunter is not legitimate reasoning either. Nor is claiming that whispersilk is scum for not agreeing with your reasoning. If anything, it's extremely town. Letting someone slide on faulty reasoning just because you agree with their vote is extremely anti-town, because there is no guarantee that you are right to begin with, so if anything is suspect to you, it's your duty as town to point it out. Offering actual evidence of scummy behavior or proposing a scummier candidate isn't scummy either and I really don't see how it could be construed that way. Backing down when she provided adequate reasoning for her response is null, since scum are just as unlikely to pursue such a hopeless case and calling it just a poke is a good way to just back out of it. And then he goes on to suggest that whisper suspecting one person but then thinking another person is suspicious is scummy. There's nothing wrong with having multiple suspects or pushing for a lynch of the person you feel is most likely to be scum.

Scum lean

.

whispersilk

: Solid play from her since pretty much the beginning. I believe that lurkers who request replacement, like chkflip, are more likely town than lurkers who keep lurking and stay in as long as possible with no content, like pinkfloyd. In theory it's a solid strategy for staying alive because if you never give people a reason to lynch you, you won't die as scum and you won't get night killed as town, but at that point it really isn't even playing the game, which is what we have from pinkfloyd as opposed to chkflip. whisper has done well to push others with her questions constantly to try to find inconsistencies and faulty logic.

Town

.

zMuffinMan

: Most of his early game was promises of content and then failure to deliver, but in recent das, he's burst out of the gate with surges of content and while some of his shit was bad, like his poor exchange with whisper and his refusal to respond to matt's post because it was "stupid", he's definitely a lot better than I originally gave him credit for. I was getting ready to write him off as scum just skating by, but he's got genuine content now and he's honestly starting to look like he might be town. For now vigilance is required, but I'd tentatively say he's town.

Null-town

.

Town
Junpei
whispersilk
killerjester
Javert
zMuffinMan
Scumhunter
projectmatt
VisceraEyes
Empking
pinkfloyd
Scum

@

Everyone

: I want to see some reads from you along with reasoning, not unlike this post. It's been too long since we've had mass read lists and I think that's part of the reason people have been skating by. We need to see where people stand and what reasoning meshes and what doesn't so we can find inconsistencies in play and reads and also find some common ground.

[Hikari Link]

Don't expect a post from me until at least Thursday. Busy for now.

[Hikari Link]

Alright, my busy week is over, so I'm now proceeding to catch up. I'll try not to take more than 3 hours, but it seems like a great deal has happened in my absence.

[Hikari Link]

Link: I'll get a reads list down when I have time later, but did you see my recent interaction with Scumhunter? Because you failed to mention it, and it is of great importance.

I did fail to mention that and it was on purpose. At the time, it seemed like the interaction was still ongoing. I wanted to see if there was any possibility that Scumhunter was on to anything and as it turns out, he wasn't. My scum read on him has only intensified in the time I've been unable to post.

Link, if it wasn't for the amount of effort that whisper is putting in right now, would you think she is town?

Descent, hey I'm tired of talking with scum, want to explain your vote and other reads?

This is a patently terrible question. It assumes both that I assume that whispersilk is town because she has put in effort and that it would be possible to even have a read on her without her posting. If she never posted, I'd obviously have no reason to think she's town.

Descent, good to hear from you.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I could disagree with you more than I currently do. VE + Muffin are both very likely town and whisper is very likely scum.

unvote, vote whispersilk

@zMuffin + Javert: I have seen town slots contribute nothing and end up lynched too many times to vote pink's slot right now. Do I think his slot is suspicious and potentially scum. Absolutely. It sure makes sense for 1 scum (Junpei) to jump on scum-pink while the rest of the scum state an intent to lynch but never place votes there. So yea, I think pink is probably scum more often than not. Junpei and Whisper are way better lynches though. Javert, I don't know why you assume a Junpei lynch isn't happening today...That's my preferred lynch.

@Descent, iso chkflip (whisper's slot). Don't let her aggression now and large posts outweigh that early game play. If I have one regret from early game its for not pushing on chkflip harder d1.

Once again we see that you attempt to build a case against whispersilk based almost entirely upon chkflip by trying to get people to dismiss whispersilk's existence. How is that a legitimate case and how has nobody called you out on it yet? Or did I just miss someone pointing it out?

Javert is obv town. He's just trying to get his way and lynch his top scumread. Pink is likely scum, but with a slot that has lurked the entire game its really not as much of a guarantee of a scumflip as whisper or junpei, who have been active and blatantly anti-town with logicless arguments.

Javert, are you willing to reconsider lynching whisper/junpei? It's a trust exercise. You are town. I'm town. Whisper is scum. Junpei is scum. They are going to be hard to lynch. I need your support.

Anyone else noticing an attempt to buddy Javert here? I really don't like it. On top of that, it's the second time he says pinkfloyd is probably town, but he'd rather lynch someone else.

@Descent, VE just town told. Being wary of someone calling themselves unlynchable, pure town paranoia and motivation right there.

That's null at most. Considering there's nothing scummy about acknowledging one's own perceived towniness, it's a stretch to say that being worried by such a statement is a legitimate concern. It's just as easily a way to implicate someone that everyone perceives as town.

So everyone: is scumhunter ninja or is it pinkfloyd? This is some epic body throwing.

This post by the way = LoL. "body throwing" to save pinkfloyd. I've said time and time again that pink very well may be scum.. This is very very obviously trying to make connections where they are not particularly in the scenario that Junpei is trying to bus pink here.

Link, your reads are WAY off. And how do you figure I'm not scumhunting? I've hunted the scum. Now I just need people to listen to me *cough*. Remember that game where I nailed all the scum on day 1? You haven't seemed interested in my opinions this game and I'm getting the inkling I could be writing you off for town too easily here. =/

ProjectMatt and KJ, sheeping the whisper wagon will earn you +1 townie point to be redeemed for -1 suspicion tomorrow.

Yes, I remember that game, but I'm my own person and I have my own reads, so I'm afraid I'm not going to sheep you eternally just because in one game you were very accurate. Also, your current scum list isn't the same as your original list, so clearly there is error in your methods that even you perceive. Furthermore, I'm getting pretty sure that you are scum at this point based on your poorly argued cases and bad play. As for not being interested in your opinion, that's entirely untrue. My first two reads on you mentioned that you needed to post more and things just went from there. I'm interested in all opinions at all times from all players, regardless of alignment. Whether or not I choose to offer said opinions any regard is based entirely on the validity of said opinion.

VE, its apparent to me (and should be apparent to any town with half a brain) that these "questions" = scum-distraction tactics by whisper. Don't sweat it too much. I know it feels like you are being attacked to the hilt but the truth of it is just that the two most active players today (Junpei + whisper) are just scum dominating the discussion. If the rest of the town is inactive and sick of this game all it goes to show is that the spamming of the thread done by Maruchan and hiplop was so so so incredibly anti-town. It stagnates the game, has a negative utility for the remainder of hte game in draining any interest in a feasible reread (not to mention making finding replacements a living hell) and analysis from a lot of players which is leading to the lazy town reads people seem to have on whisper and junpei here. -_____-

Link you need to reread chkflip. If we are to have any chance to pull this out, we need a) you to be town and b) you to give this game more attention.

Why does the entire game hinge on me being town and being more active? Are you just trying to buddy me like you did with Javert? The fact that you'd call whisper's questions to VE blatant distraction tactics are laughable, especially after even VE himself admitted that what whisper pursued against him was a solid line of questioning. I'm seeing nothing from you but wild allegations and buddying right now and it stinks. Honestly, your vote on pinkfloyd only serves to encourage me, considering how long it took you to put that vote out on him, I take it that you were trying to protect your scum buddy by saying "yeah, this guy is probably scum, but let's go after these two more townie people for some inexplicable reason first", but after realizing that the pinkfloyd ship had pretty much already sailed, you might as well bus your friend for some towncred.

@Link

As I said before, my case on SS/MoS was based almost exclusively around her display of exasperation before she replaced out. She kinda appeared town to me before then, and I had intended to go back and see if there was an ACTUAL case to be made after I stated my intention to do so...but as you can see, it was too late for any of that anyway.

Don't play the 'implied-content' card on me Link, you're hardly here enough for you to even be taken seriously saying it. lol I've put a lot of effort into this game, but I freely admit I've been flaking out lately.

I honestly don't know how this turned into a Scumhunter quote-fest, because going through it, I seem to recall quoting VE far more often, and then somehow things changed. Maybe as I read through, my questions just got answered and I decided those things didn't need quoting. Two things stand out to me here though.

1. I seem to recall you saying you had a post all ready to go but deleted it because of the fact that she had decided to replace out.

I literally had whole post dedicated to why I thought singersigner was scum complete with unvote and new vote, and PEdit revealed that not only would my unvote be illegal because of the hammer, but that singersigner is now done with this game anyway.

Spectacular, NOW we're going places.

Yeah, that wasn't my imagination.

2. I'll play the implied content card on anyone I choose. See, regardless of my schedule not permitting me to post as often as I'd like, the fact remains that I don't make posts with implied content and empty promises, to my knowledge. At worst, my posts are delayed, but I strive to answer all questions I'm asked and I tend to stay away from stuff near the end of the day where I promise something and then don't deliver or suggest tat I was going to post something but that it is now irrelevant and so no longer worth my time.

@

Everyone

: So I doubt I'll be getting those reads that I requested, especially as the deadline looms near. So should I be the one to die tonight, I think the following things should be said.

1. Please post detailed reads tomorrow as the day begins.

2. Lynch Scumhunter.

3. Watch VE like a hawk.

4. Consider the others on my scum list as well.

My vote stays on pinkfloyd, because it looks to me like he's copying BBmolla down to the letter to get out of death. Not only is he refusing to help the town, but he put himself at L-1 so that it wouldn't be an actual death. I truly think he's trying to remind us of what happened there so we'll back out. He needs to hang.

[Hikari Link]

Massprod incoming. I don't give a fuck if you've posted in the past 48 hours. There is under 2 days left until deadline.

To be fair, we have someone at L-1. There's really nothing that can be said at this point and probably not enough time to change wagons even if we wanted to, as there is no guarantee enough people would be active enough to come to a consensus for an alternative. There's really nothing else to be said about pinkfloyd at this point. His actions speak louder than any other case against him. He's blatantly playing like BBmolla did before he was lynched to make us think he's town too and he's continually being useless to the town, even under threat of death. I really can't see how he hasn't been lynched already.

@Mod:

Can we get a vote count?

[Hikari Link]

Oh, you are looking for people to change their votes with you.

No, I'm sorry but Pinkfloyd is the type of dead weight that has to go. Either dead weight scum or town, we can never know, and have to lynch.

There will then be many avenues to go through tomorrow.

Are you aware that your vote is currently not on pinkfloyd?

[Hikari Link]

Link, I don't have my vote on because I'm trying to give town time. He's at L-1, no need to hammer with plenty to discuss.

Just checking. I seem to recall you not being aware of where your vote was in the past and I read your post in such a way that implied you thought it was on him.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: No Lynch

This is the correct move in this situation, as I understand it and it is logical. Since we have no protective role, we can't possibly escape MyLo/LyLo, so it's better to narrow the pool down by one than to risk the mislynch and lose, since we have to be absolutely perfect from this point on.

I'm also torn on whether or not we should even spend the day discussing our reads. On one hand, one of us will die and become unable to provide more input, so it might be better. On the other hand, we potentially help scum at this juncture. They are less likely to kill town at the top of everyone's scum lists and more likely to kill people we all think are town. VE's vote on Junpei is a prime example. If town public opinion has swayed o Junpei being scum and he is town, then scum will leave him, while if he is still mostly thought of as town, he's more likely to die. I'd hate to waste a day completely, but at the same time, we're backed into a corner and can't really afford to give scum more to work with.

What does everyone think?

I'm personally more inclined to believe that 2 weeks is ample time to make a decision and so we can bypass the discussion today to avoid giving mafia more material to use against us.

[Hikari Link]

I have received 6/10 requests to move into LYLO (Day 6) early.

--

killerjester -

Townie who bleeds Vanilla

- broke his neck from the speed of Day 5 during Night 5

--

I would like to remind everyone that this is LYLO. As such, No Lynch is not an option. Therefore, plurality lynches are in effect.

With 9 here, 5 lynches.

@Mod:

If that's the case, what happens in the event of a tie?

[Hikari Link]

Link, why do you care? Also is there any doubt in your mind that scumhunter is scum?

Well I was hoping we could potentially lynch 2 at once and escape LyLo, but so much for that. In regards to Scumhunter, his last couple of days are almost nothing but unfounded accusations and weak cases and before that he has been relatively useless. I could be incorrect, but at this point it seems unlikely. At this point, there are so few possible candidates, that unless I've just been completely bamboozled by scum and Scumhunter has been playing like shit as town, there's no way he's not scum.

VOTE: Scumhunter

[Hikari Link]

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

[Hikari Link]

Junpei, I don't say this lightly, but right now you look bad, and it seems like you're sending signals to a buddy to claim doc because you guys fucked up your story and you need a doc in the setup to confirm the existence of a roleblocker, which would then give credibility to your claim.

Something is really off here, and if this is some kind of scum gambit that includes scum claiming doc, then you guys have taken it too far. I'm not likely going to believe a doc claim, especially one coming from muffin or Empking. It's simply too much to believe that 1) the doc failed to protect the cop, 2) the doc failed to protect at least one of the other night kills, 3) that the doc went about his business for 5 nights without either of you two seeing his movements, and 4) that the scum have managed to miss hitting at least one of the three town power roles you claim are still in the game.

Am I the only one thinking this?

What exactly do you mean by "taken it too far"? If he is scum, why would you be trying to help him? It's pretty obvious what's going on here to me, but I'm not going to bail Junpei out here. We'll see if his story lines up with my theory.

[Hikari Link]

If a roleblocker exists, and you have been roleblocked, you would have received a No Result.

As there is no current deadline for lylo because it's lylo...yeah.

Then what's the purpose of plurality?

[Hikari Link]

Link, on the off chance you are town right now, you'd be wise to unvote.

Yeah, that's not fucking happening unless you become confirmed town by the time that this mass claim is all said and done.

[Hikari Link]

I'm telling the truth. That's all I know. While I may have been mistaken about some things, I've been telling the truth the whole game.

What's going on here is apparently obvious to Link. I'm also eagerly awaiting his response to these events.

PEdit: You saw of course that he did NOT visit Descent, correct PM? He actually now claims to have visited SH on the same night I did.

Well I'm glad everything was cleared up. For the record, here was my theory.

1. Junpei was lying about his Night 2 results.
2. He assumed that there was no Doctor.

Basically, I assumed he was running a gambit where he got scum to claim Doctor when there was no such role so that he could get confirmed scum. Of course, saying it before all of this was sorted out would have been a bad idea on the off chance that he was scum.

Now that everything is sorted out though, we can get back on the road to lynching scum. My vote remains on Scumhunter. I will post a case on him tonight for matt's sake (assuming that nobody else has done it by then), but I have o go clothing shopping today. I've got jury duty tomorrow and a job interview Tuesday (assuming I can get out of jury duty), but I'll try to keep up with the threat and post regularly whenever there's anything worth commenting on or whenever I feel the need to chime in.

[Hikari Link]

I just ISO'd Scumhunter again. I can understand why he's scummy, but for the sake of discussion and getting more tells from Hiraki, I would like him to make the case that he suggested. Then I'll dedicate a vote to him.

Right now, this is my list of town from strongest to worst:

Junpei
VisceraEyes
Javert
Hikari
Whisper
zMuffinMan
Scumhunter
Empking

If we have four scum, it means there's a scum between Javert\Hikari\Whisper, and to be honest I have no idea who it is. I'll work it out later.

Seriously, bro? You're gonna call me Hiraki

and

Hikari in the same post? I just can't catch a break with you can I?

I agree fully that we should hold off on the lynch until I make my Scumhunter case and Muffin has spoken. I'm afraid it won't be as comprehensive as originally planned, since I literally don't need to convince anyone of anything at this point.

Unvote: Scumhunter

Suppose there's really no point in a fast day.

There's really no point in dragging our feet either. Once we're reasonably sure, we might as well get things over with. Though we should probably have Junpei and Viscera make any final statements as well. I can't imagine anyone but them dying tonight.

[Hikari Link]

Link, I would ask that you hold nothing back when making your scumhunter case. You need to convince town that you're the same alignment as me.

Is a case on Scumhunter really going to do that just because it is longer, rather than shorter? What is there to be gained by building a massive case on someone roundly believed to be scum? As scum, I could just as easily bus the shit out of him now that he's definitely going down as I could build a case as town. I'm more concerned with getting his lynch out of the way and putting effort into finding the rest of the scum.Muffin and Empking are the most likely candidates, but from there, it's a bit harder. I think finding the remaining scum in the current lot is going to be the actual test for me, not building some useless case on Scumhunter.

To make matters worse, I'm almost assuredly going to be under heavy fire simply because my activity wasn't as high as people would ave liked, which is the same thing I've been hearing all game, when in reality, it had everything to d with real life, but there is simply no way for me to prove that. I can only imagine the reason I'm still alive is exactly for this reason. I'm in a lot of scum pools right now simply by process of elimination because I wasn't as active as some others or I wasn't perceived as being as helpful as the game progressed.

Right now, a Scumhunter case is the least of my concerns. In my mind, he's already out of the picture and I'm just worrying about finding the rest of the scum. The only reason I even offered to make a Scumhunter case was because projectmatt was still unconvinced and the only reason I agreed to post it anyway was because he asked for it, but to ask me to spend 2 or more hours to collect evidence on a guy who is already guaranteed to die is just nonsensical to me. If you want me to really prove myself, you should be asking me for so much more.

[Hikari Link]

Link, as you wish, I'll ask of you a different task.

Could you go, starting at day 4, and look to see who involved in the scumhunter fiasco (while we were peeling him out of hiding) look like scum or town from it.

Can do. I'll get on it when I get home from buying some interview clothes.

Oh, and I would like for you to operate under the assumption that Scumhunter is scum.

Understood.

[Hikari Link]

For the Scumhunter case, I'll start by linking to a collection of some of his worst posts from Day 4.

Aside from that, he's been pretty much nothing but filler and useless cocky posting.

His case against whispersilk amounts to her being aggressive, which I really can't understand as a scumtell, since there are plenty of aggressive players out there. VE was pretty aggressive, especially with Cobbler. Kc was pretty aggressive too with several people. He also references chkflip being scummy, which he wasn't particularly. He was lurky, sure, but then he replaced out, so the tell is null. When a person who is hardly posting replaces out because of a busy schedule, it's no longer legitimate to call them scum because they lurked, since town can lurk as much. Despite that, he's apparently like 90% sure she's scum.

His case on me? Even more suspect. Apparently there's something wrong with me from like Day 3 on that he can't be bothered to actually point out. The closest I can see to an actual case is:

Link popped his scummy little head up when I took a look at his latest reads list and realized, OH SHIT. Well played. You made it to day 5 and escaped my fos completely for the first 3 days and for the most part yesterday too. Congrats, well played. I'd encourage everyone to read Link's contributions over the last couple of days. Its underwhelming.

Things he fails to mention:

1. What's wrong with my reads.
2. What is underwhelming.
3. Why it's enough to confirm me as scum.

Because he's literally been riding this case the entire time. Well that and calling me out on voting him when he's been nothing but scummy for the past couple days. I mean, pretty much everyone can see it, yet he has the gall to deny that he hasn't looked bad and to suggest that he's such a beacon of towniness that anyone voting him must be scum, as seen here

(Junpei and Link are pressuring on me now, not because I'm the easiest mislynch, but because I'm most dangerous to them having any shot whatsoever at losing)

and here

In other news, Link and Whisper remain scum. Look at those juicy town wagon options!

and here

Look at Link voting me. Reread his slot from like day 3 on. He's scum. Are you butthurt I fosed you? Your foses haven't exactly been spot on so far either and I'm still right about Link and Whisper. If I hadn't made it clear I think CSL's comments make you and VE both likely town. Yes its cheap to use mod actions to say that, but it is what it is, can't really ignore that.

It's nothing to but pure OMGUS without the vote. Because of course he can't start the vote. He needs to instigate things from the sidelines, but wait until there is enough support so that he and his buddies can pile on for the hammer. Nothing better for scum than being the last on the wagon in LyLo. It makes things so much easier.

He was also pushing the super townie Junpei for as long as humanly possible and continues to do so with whispersilk and he tried his damnedest to discredit the claim of Junpei and VE. Of course, once they no longer became viable targets, he of course jumped right off.

@projectmatt: This should make things pretty clear for you.

@VisceraEyes: You say that you've got a town read on Scumhunter because of your whispersilk interactions? Look back at that time and see if it doesn't look like he was trying to buddy up to you like he did with Javert.

@Junpei: Expect my other post tomorrow. As luck would have it, I was able to reschedule my jury duty, so I will be home all day tomorrow. I'll see what I can pick up from the past few days in terms of associative tells.

[Hikari Link]

@Link
Yes, it appears that way. It even felt that way at the time...but my problem with it is this: if whisper is scum and SH is town, I can absolutely see him reacting the way he did. Furthermore, whisper has been more interested in catching me in a lie than actually scumhunting. Even after I explained my reasoning, she remained absolutely convinced that I was lying. Add to that the fact that I didn't die over the night-phase, and it looks to me like scum attempting to engineer a mislynch. I could be way off, but I feel like that's what has been going on.

In fairness, it's not dissimilar to the way that you reacted towards Cobblerfone. Hell, even when you heard his Cop claim, you were so adamant abot his lynch that you wouldn't even hear him not being lynched that very day. Does that make you scum?

Link, no my case on whispersilk isn't solely because she is being aggressive. Aggression in and of itself is quite often an indicator of being town. What is off about whisper's aggression is she doesn't show a legitimate concern for the people she is attacking. The motive for her attacks is to get people lynched, instead of attacking people to see how they respond and to adjust accordingly.

Some town end up thinking they've caught scum and end up going further and pushing harder than they really should. It is something that happens in this game of uncertainty. I'm still not seeing anything that is indicative of her being scum.

Link, there is nothing wrong with your play. You have played well this game. I respect you as a player.

I don't want or need you patronizing me. My play has been far from well this game and I know it. I've had plenty of people telling me so all game.

I'm sure you have played games before where in the late-game, as town, you go "Oh shit, so and so is scum, but it might be too late to do anything about it."

I've never said that it might be too late. Maybe you never read my first game on this site, but I got my top town read lynched in MyLo there. If I see someone I think is scum, I fight for it tooth and nail, plain and simple. But when I find these people, what I bring is an actual case.

OMGUS is an overused term but with my fos on you it might be somewhat appropriate.

Somewhat appropriate? Your entire case against me is that I'm convinced you are scum.

The turning point was your post #2975 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p3533458, where you say "Lynch Scumhunter". I mean up until that post, I wasn't even aware that I was a top suspect of yours.

Then you didn't read the post there. Because it's blatantly obvious why you moved up the list in that post.

You weren't asking me any questions to clarify my stances or to try and gauge my alignment. It felt like out of nowhere "BOOM", SH is scum, lynch him tomorrow.

That's because I've seen scum like you before. There's no reason to ask you questions to gauge your alignment. You will not be particularly inconsistent, you will just present bad logic the entire time that follows consistently.

I know your scumhunting is better than that from the previous game we played together and I really don't think I have done anything that would warrant you having the "SH is obv scum" stance here.

Please don't pretend like you know me or how I scumhunt.

1. What's wrong with your reads? You are trying to lynch town.

Not likely.

2. What's underwhelming? Your scumhunting and general participation compared to your activity levels in the early game.3

My activity level is not alignment-based and it certainly isn't as low as some other players in the game, so that's hardly a strike against me and the only thing wrong with my scumhunting is that I've been having trouble finding scum, apparently because people like you have been flying under the radar.

3. Why it's enough to confirm me as scum? It's not, but I very much think you are scum and want to see you hang.

Oh, that's a big change from all of that talk where I am definitely scum. Well, at least you finally stopped talking in absolutes. But probably the worstpart hat makes me so sure of you is this. I'm quite literally at the top of your list, above even whisper, with even less evidence. Your certainty that I must be scum that you are willing to risk the entire game on what essentially amounts to nothing is so suspicious to me that I can't understand it. There are 4 scum left in this game and I've somehow made it to the top of your list? Even though you have at least a semi-plausible case on whisper? Yeah, right. And of course, you still won't lay down a vote because you want to be on the end of the wagon.

I said I'm not the easiest mislynch because I'm almost never lynched as town (only been lynched one game on here after a fake cop claim with a guilty on scum that I had to later retract). I'm pretty sure I'm still the only one who is on to you and whisper.

You must have your head up your ass if you think you are the only person who suspects either whisper or me. If by nothing other than process of elimination, even I have to wonder at this point if she's scum VE is still very suspicious of her. As for me, lots of people have been suspecting me this whole game. It's not a new thing that you created. This is what I'm talking about, acting like you are some sort of shining beacon and the last hope of the town.

Drown out my voice by criticizing my playstyle and lack of conventional looking cases. It's working, -___-

That's because your play is questionable at best, yet you act like ou are confirmed town to everybody and it's so obvious that you've caught scum that have been hiding in plain sight all game. And the best part is that if you can get me mislynched today, you don't even have to try to justify your actions tomorrow, because the game is over.

Yes, you and whisper are scum and started wagons on VE and me to start the day hoping one would pick up screen so that you could move in for the kill.

You mean whispersilk who was just told that VE had apparently killed Descent Night 4? And I love how sure you were that he was town.Without a doubt, it was a town wagon, huh? Don't think I haven't noticed the buddying there.

Junpei, if you want to have any hope of salvaging this game, you need to unvote me ASAP.

Better do what he says. This guy really seems to know what he's talking about.

[Hikari Link]

@Link
Yes, it appears that way. It even felt that way at the time...but my problem with it is this: if whisper is scum and SH is town, I can absolutely see him reacting the way he did. Furthermore, whisper has been more interested in catching me in a lie than actually scumhunting. Even after I explained my reasoning, she remained absolutely convinced that I was lying. Add to that the fact that I didn't die over the night-phase, and it looks to me like scum attempting to engineer a mislynch. I could be way off, but I feel like that's what has been going on.

In fairness, it's not dissimilar to the way that you reacted towards Cobblerfone. Hell, even when you heard his Cop claim, you were so adamant abot his lynch that you wouldn't even hear him not being lynched that very day. Does that make you scum?
Oh Link, of course it's a different thing. I've played with Cobbler before and I thought I knew his town play. In all fairness, he was a cop this game and that accounts for the difference, but I saw it as different because he's scum. Yes, I believed right up until the flip that he was scum. But whisper has never played with me before. She wasn't drawing on past experience for her read in any way whatsoever. It's obviously possible that she's town and just honestly didn't believe a word I said...for no reason. But I don't think so. I think she's scum and I think she was trying to engineer my mislynch today.

So to answer your question (that was designed not to get any information from me or further your read on me), no. That does not make me scum.

I asked you a question? It was just my observation that your interaction with Cobbler was not dissimilar to whisper's interaction with you, I figured an outsider's perspective might help. We need to be cohesive here if we're going to pull off 4 consecutive scum lynches. That's not to say we shouldn't suspect one another, because obviously, some people here are scum, but you can't let personal bias get in the way.

[Hikari Link]

Link
The question was 'Does that make you scum?' I'm sure it was rhetorical. Why I find humorous about it is that you asked it trying to make me feel...what, guilty?...for suspecting Cobbler because of my present suspicion of Whisper...and when I refute the point you're making, you don't even mention that. What you say instead is that 'you were just trying to help, ousider's perspective, lalala'. Why did you say that? Did you perceive the parenthesized statement to be a veiled attack on your post? It was! You weren't giving me an outside perspective, you were defending whispersilk. You were appealing to my sense of guilt for suspecting Cobbler by drawing a parallel that doesn't exist between whisper/VE and VE/Cobbler. I don't like it Link. Not at all.

Yes, the rhetorical question was not meant to be answered. And it wasn't meant to make you feel guilty. You were wrong and that happens. You can perceive it as a defense of whisper if that's what you want, but that's not what it was. I was simply pointing out that logically speaking, whisper could be wrong and aggressive in the same way that you can be wrong and aggressive. I mean, hell, you could be right about her and she could be playing us very well, but if she is scum, the way to find her is not OMGUS. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't analyze the things she has said to you, but in many cases I'm seeing things being blown out of proportion and it seems like your judgment is being clouded.You and Junpei are the last of the confirmed town, so we need you guys to think the clearest. In essence, you guys are our last rallying points. If you've got something real on whisper, then please present it, but don't pretend that Scumhunter is making sense just because you don't like whisper.

[Hikari Link]

Link, where is that analysis?

Day's not over, is it?

[Hikari Link]

Junpei, could you please clarify what exactly you mean by "Scumhunter fiasco"? Right now I'm going to work under the assumption you just mean any associative tells with Scumhunter.

[Hikari Link]

Well Link, I asked because you're making big posts, I just figured that it wouldn't take too long.

Actully, I assumed that this would take the longest, so I've been putting it off all day.

And, I'd start with... the post that Javert points out that Scumhunter is not scumhunting.

Which post was that? A link would help? I had started at the beginning of Day 4.

Oh, and nothing FROM scumhunter please.

Well, obviously. You asked for other people in relation to him, I believe.

I would like you to focus on posts made from others in regards to scumhunter. I have a few things in mind, and would like to see what conclusions you draw.

Sure.

[Hikari Link]

I guess I'll analyze how everybody interacted with Scumhunter over the past few days and what my thoughts are.

Empking

: Day 4 starts with Empking voting for Scumhunter and he goes on to say that his reasons were the BBmolla hammer and also that scum have been going under the radar. He also mentions that there is no reason for town Scumhunter not to vote pinkfloyd and believed that pinkfloyd was a scapegoat to protect Scumhunter. Other than those, the interaction was fairly minor, though he also mentions believing Scumhunter is scum at the end of Day 4, yet the only real content we've had from him since the beginning of Day 5 was a vote for Javert, despite the fact that there had been no actual content from either of them in the interim period and his last vote up until then had been on Scumhunter. Now granted, he could have been equally suspicious of both, but he definitely got out ahead of everyone on the Scumhunter wagon, which is a possible bus, and then when we got to MyLo, despite the fact that we were going with the obvious No Lynch, he voted fore Javert rather than Scumhuter. I think we can all agree that Scumhunter is scum at this point (at least, most of us), but he went instead for the more likely to be town Javert, which, had the wagon caught on, could very well have ended the game.

Javert

: Didn't go for the Scumhunter wagon, not because he didn't like him for scum, but because the other people on the wagon were in his scum pool. Other than that, the interaction is pretty much non-existent. Scum would have zero reason to not jump on a Scumhunter wagon if they were just trying to bus for towncred. It could be a gambit to start an opposing town wagon that could be easily mislynched, but then why favor a Scumhunter lynch today? pinkfloyd was pretty much guaranteed to go down at any point in the game and for a player like Javert, some towncred from being a key part of a scum lynch would have been a big help as scum.

projectmatt

: Questioned VE's vote on Scumhunter for singling him out among all the people weren't scumhunting, then went on to suspect Scumhunter for specific instances of poor play. Oddly enough, he then asked for specific instances of Scumhunter's scumminess, until he ISO'd him again and saw it for himself. There is not much there in terms of association, honestly. I guess it is a bit odd that he forgot that he suspected Scumhunter after he was in matt's top 4. It could be explained away as forgetfulness, but it could be something deeper, so I'm noting it here just in case.

whispersilk

: The majority of her actions regarding him are through other people. There was her criticism of VE for his vote because he wasn't living up to his name and aside from that, she expressed interest in his lynch several times. Aside from that, she's also had several yelling matches with Scumhunter where she asks for evidence and Scumhunter just keeps pounding forward that her aggression and chkflip are his evidence and then it goes back and forth. If whisper is scum, it's a hell of a bus they've got going on there.

zMuffinMan

: I have no idea what to say here. I mean, he's mentioned Scumhunter's name a few times and asked him a few questions and Scumhunter was in his most recent scum list, but there's hardly any interaction there.

[Hikari Link]

Now granted, he could have been equally suspicious of both, but he definitely got out ahead of everyone on the Scumhunter wagon, which is a possible bus, and then when we got to MyLo, despite the fact that we were going with the obvious No Lynch, he voted fore Javert rather than Scumhuter. I think we can all agree that Scumhunter is scum at this point (at least, most of us), but he went instead for the more likely to be town Javert, which, had the wagon caught on, could very well have ended the game.

1. Going "suspicion of scum = bussing" is horrible play especially considering the scum clearly don't want to bus in this game (see the first post for further details).
2. Just because you allowed scum to NL doesn't mean it was the town thing to do. This day would be a lot easier with KJ.
3. Javert is no more or less likely to be scum that Scumhunter. Disagreeing with you =/= scummy.

1. It's not suspicion of scum that mkes it look like a bus, it's the fact that you voted as the first post of the day with no explanation or other words. And bussing is a strategy scum could easily use in this game exactly because they don't need to.
2. The No Lynch is always the right thing to do in MyLo.
3. No, it doesn't. Being scummy as shit = scummy. Scumhunter falls into that category, while Javert doesn't.

Not really sure what you want me to do, but to say "you are not scumhunting" just isn't fair. I'm trying. I'm here. Whisper is scum. Link is scum. Empking is scum. Cool. There's your scumhunting.

In what world is saying "X, Y, and Z are scum because I say so" scumhunting? You've presented terrible cases that aren't actually indicative of scum in any way and been basically unable to convince people. So what's the solution? Dig deeper. If you were actually town, you'd dig deeper to find real evidence to get your suspects lynched. But you can't really do that if there is nothing to be found, now can you? You can't find evidence against me because there's no evidence to be had, so you have to muster together some OMGUS shit to push your mislynch through because you're in LyLo and you are running out of people you can mislynch.

Can you see why my top priority would be defending myself from clears who think I'm scum on lylo would take precedence over giving a rat's ass about counterwagons. If anything the fact that I wasn't even aware of who was votin gme or of wagon statuses is a major town tell.

In this post: "Hey guys" check out this towntell I just dropped! I didn't know who wass trying to lynch me and I've just been desperately flailing, so I must be town." Seriously, you never even noticed that Junpei hasn't voted for you today, you just got scared because confirmed town suspected you and you can't OMGUS back at him, so rather than try to prove your innocence, you just kept saying "nah, bro, don't vote me".

Okay, here's some food for thought. Link is taking orders from Junpei. In my experience with him, Link doesn't take orders from ANYONE. Link finds scum his way. Every time. Why? Because he's good at it. Because he's REAL good at it.

UNVOTE: Scumhunter
VOTE: Hikari Link

Why so subservient Link?

Oh, so in one game with me, you've suddenly got my meta pinned down? Please. Consider these points:

1. We're in LyLo.
2. Junpei is confirmed town.
3. I've already stated that confirmed town needs to be our rallying point if we are to get through this.
4. Since when is fulfilling someone's request "taking orders" or "being subservient"?
5. When have I ever denied a request?
6. How does answering a request from someone else equate to me not scumhunting my own way?
7. How did I somehow apparently become the greatest player ever in your book? That's just some curiosity on my part. I'm nowhere near as good as you make me out to be. My town win percentage is actually only 50%, less if you count that game we played where I was part of a hydra. Even less counting my off-site games. My percentage of people attacking me for not getting good enough results is actually pretty high though.

[Hikari Link]

Fuck it. We don't actually need to wait around for you to pull your head out of Scumhunter's arse.

Empking, Junpei and Javert: PUT YOUR VOTE ON SCUMHUNTER SO WE CAN GET THIS SHIT OVER WITH.

GET THIS SHIT OVER WITH, implying lynching me will end the game derp derp derp.

Like, why would scum IMPLY that lynching you will end the game? Do you really believe that whisper is scum and she honestly just scumslipped that you're town? After going to so much trouble incredulously browbeating me for not voting for you anymore?

Now granted, he could have been equally suspicious of both, but he definitely got out ahead of everyone on the Scumhunter wagon, which is a possible bus, and then when we got to MyLo, despite the fact that we were going with the obvious No Lynch, he voted fore Javert rather than Scumhuter. I think we can all agree that Scumhunter is scum at this point (at least, most of us), but he went instead for the more likely to be town Javert, which, had the wagon caught on, could very well have ended the game.

1. Going "suspicion of scum = bussing" is horrible play especially considering the scum clearly don't want to bus in this game (see the first post for further details).
2. Just because you allowed scum to NL doesn't mean it was the town thing to do. This day would be a lot easier with KJ.
3. Javert is no more or less likely to be scum that Scumhunter. Disagreeing with you =/= scummy.

1. It's not suspicion of scum that mkes it look like a bus, it's the fact that you voted as the first post of the day with no explanation or other words. And bussing is a strategy scum could easily use in this game exactly because they don't need to.
2. The No Lynch is always the right thing to do in MyLo.
3. No, it doesn't. Being scummy as shit = scummy. Scumhunter falls into that category, while Javert doesn't.

Not really sure what you want me to do, but to say "you are not scumhunting" just isn't fair. I'm trying. I'm here. Whisper is scum. Link is scum. Empking is scum. Cool. There's your scumhunting.

In what world is saying "X, Y, and Z are scum because I say so" scumhunting? You've presented terrible cases that aren't actually indicative of scum in any way and been basically unable to convince people. So what's the solution? Dig deeper. If you were actually town, you'd dig deeper to find real evidence to get your suspects lynched. But you can't really do that if there is nothing to be found, now can you? You can't find evidence against me because there's no evidence to be had, so you have to muster together some OMGUS shit to push your mislynch through because you're in LyLo and you are running out of people you can mislynch.

Can you see why my top priority would be defending myself from clears who think I'm scum on lylo would take precedence over giving a rat's ass about counterwagons. If anything the fact that I wasn't even aware of who was votin gme or of wagon statuses is a major town tell.

In this post: "Hey guys" check out this towntell I just dropped! I didn't know who wass trying to lynch me and I've just been desperately flailing, so I must be town." Seriously, you never even noticed that Junpei hasn't voted for you today, you just got scared because confirmed town suspected you and you can't OMGUS back at him, so rather than try to prove your innocence, you just kept saying "nah, bro, don't vote me".

Okay, here's some food for thought. Link is taking orders from Junpei. In my experience with him, Link doesn't take orders from ANYONE. Link finds scum his way. Every time. Why? Because he's good at it. Because he's REAL good at it.

UNVOTE: Scumhunter
VOTE: Hikari Link

Why so subservient Link?

Oh, so in one game with me, you've suddenly got my meta pinned down? Please. Consider these points:

1. We're in LyLo.
2. Junpei is confirmed town.
3. I've already stated that confirmed town needs to be our rallying point if we are to get through this.
4. Since when is fulfilling someone's request "taking orders" or "being subservient"?
5. When have I ever denied a request?
6. How does answering a request from someone else equate to me not scumhunting my own way?
7. How did I somehow apparently become the greatest player ever in your book? That's just some curiosity on my part. I'm nowhere near as good as you make me out to be. My town win percentage is actually only 50%, less if you count that game we played where I was part of a hydra. Even less counting my off-site games. My percentage of people attacking me for not getting good enough results is actually pretty high though.

First of all, it's not your 'meta' that I have pinned down, it's your posting style. And I have it pinned down because I admire it. In consideration of your points...

1) Indeed.
2) Indeed.
3) But apparently I'm a dumbass, so this is a terrible strategy.
4) It's not - it's the manner in which you did it. Like, I get wanting to help in Junpei's personal scumhunting endeavors, but the HL

I

know would have said things like "But this doing it that way leaves too many variables, for one Scumhunter isn't confirmed scum so scumhunting in that way would show bias, and for another <insert poignant banter revealing Junpei's request to be unreasonable>. Instead, I'll view his interactions objectively and see what that turns up"...or something like that. You scumhunt your way because it works for you. Period.
5) Never that I've seen...unless it's a stupid request.
6) See #4
7) Win percentage is misleading. First of all, it's not taking the skill-level of the scum-team into account. For another, it's not taking the skill-gap between you and the rest of town into account. It's posts like THIS that lead me to believe that you're so good Link, not your win percentage. Your logic is really good and your reads are usually spot on. It's why I killed you in that hydra game - and subsequently why I won that game (in my opinion.)

UNVOTE: Hikari Link

This game...I'm following Jun's lead here and will NOT be voting until closer to deadline.

3. You aren't a dumbass, accusations of buddying be damned. I honestly see a lot of potential in you as a player, you just need to keep at it and not lose focus. And most importantly, don't let emotions cloud your judgment, as you've been prone to do during this game. The great thing about confirmed town though is that even if they aren't the best player, they are still useful as a rallying point, because people know that what they say is genuine and not faked, which is why they are so important.
4. And if I were in a position where I thought Scumhuter wasn't scum, I would have done it that way, but the fact of the matter is, I believe Scumhunter should be lynched today, so I can freely analyze things as though he's scum. If he flips scum, as I believe, the analysis remains valid. If he doesn't, as unlikely as that is, then the game ends and it doesn't matter that my analysis was based on a faulty premise.
7. I'll admit that if you had let me live, I never, ever would have let that "there's no way VE could be scum" bullshit fly. That said, it's not just win percentage. I've made bad calls too and misread people entirely before or else I was unable to properly convince others due to my own failings. Whatever the case may be, I'm certainly not infallible, nor do I think I am, I just mask it behind bravado. After this game would you at all be interested in hydraing?

[Hikari Link]

VE, I'm obviously fine with any lynch that doesn't involve me right now as thats a significant upgrade to how things would otherwise go here. The problem is the VE/Link vs SH dilemma isn't going away and I don't trust anyone else but you to even have a shot at getting it right. Link is right, you do have potential,

you are the only one in this room right now with the ability to turn this game around

. Now the way to do that would be lynching VE/Link. It's a hard task but if it doesn't happen today, not sure if it's ever going to happen. And it needs to happen if we are going to win here. I mean cool, lets lynch Empking, but I get lynched tomorrow and it doesn't even matter..

That's a bold-faced lie. Don't try to twist my comment into some messiah bullshit like he's the last one who can save this game or something. If nothing else, Junpei is equally as important as he is right now, the only difference is that you know you can't swindle Junpei as easily.

To recap Scumhunters last post:

>ego stroke Ve
>ego stroke VE
>ego stroke VE
>lets lynch VE and Link

Yes, I know that link did the same thing to VE in his last post, but scumhunter was far more obvious and it was completely unprompted. Anyway, back to work; please don't indulge scum-h

Well that last part was so obviously a typo that it's not even worth mentioning. And my comments toward VE were in no way meant as an ego stroke so much as encouragement, but I suppose they aren't that different. It's a little something I picked up from you actually, back in our first game together where you were talking about the importance of confidence in oneself. VE is clearly losing resolve and that's simply no good.

[Hikari Link]

I can't tell if it is the correlation in opinion on the subject of what is a good town mindset that is getting in the way of me being able to objectively read that, or if you were buddying both me and VE...

Oh well, if you're scum I have enough evidence in this thread anyway, all that's left is to find out if it exists or not.

Come now, Junpei. Do you think that even if I were scum, I'd be so blatantly obvious as to buddy people? Especially when I don't really even have any reason to believe I'm in any real danger? I'm a far more subtle player than that, our styles of play are similar enough for you to know that. I just give credit where credit is due. Take this statement as you may, I'm done with the issue.

3. You aren't a dumbass, accusations of buddying be damned. I honestly see a lot of potential in you as a player, you just need to keep at it and not lose focus. And most importantly, don't let emotions cloud your judgment, as you've been prone to do during this game. The great thing about confirmed town though is that even if they aren't the best player, they are still useful as a rallying point, because people know that what they say is genuine and not faked, which is why they are so important.

4. And if I were in a position where I thought Scumhuter wasn't scum, I would have done it that way, but the fact of the matter is, I believe Scumhunter should be lynched today, so I can freely analyze things as though he's scum. If he flips scum, as I believe, the analysis remains valid. If he doesn't, as unlikely as that is, then the game ends and it doesn't matter that my analysis was based on a faulty premise.

7. I'll admit that if you had let me live, I never, ever would have let that "there's no way VE could be scum" bullshit fly. That said, it's not just win percentage. I've made bad calls too and misread people entirely before or else I was unable to properly convince others due to my own failings. Whatever the case may be, I'm certainly not infallible, nor do I think I am, I just mask it behind bravado. After this game would you at all be interested in hydraing?

We'll see. This game is beating the care out of me though. MYLO is stressful. I just lost a game in MYLO because I SPECIFICALLY made a bad call, and here I am again. Fortunately I'm not alone in this one. UNfortunately, I don't know who to trust.

Conceded.

Absolutely.

Bad calls happen. Look at my Vegas Mafia game. That town loss was 100% my fault. Don't let that type of thing stress you. Losing sucks for everyone, but it isn't the end of the world. Just try in the moment to do the best that you can for your team and in the end, win or lose, have no regrets, because you gave it your all.

I'll PM you when the game ends. I really can't wait for that, because I've been waiting for this game to end so that I can finally apply to IC in a Newbie game.

And with that, let's end this slightly off-topic discussion.

[Hikari Link]

Please don't use my color...

Isn't your color blue?

[Hikari Link]

VE, please explain what you mean by "in lieu" of actual scumhunting. k shdaksghaksghaskghaks ghdaksghaksgagjkah49toasjgdlaks hg9284ty8ogbh
asdg asd gsykwjejh2y3ku4tyio4qwu3iqw3yg

I've made it clear who I think is scum. (whisper, empking, link) and who I don't (Junpei + VE + Javert) Javert needs to stop lurking. I'd still be surprised if he was scum, but hell I'm still surprised Junpei is town so yea. One of PM/Muffin is scum unless I'm off about javert, which is possible I suppose. I want to see Muffin and Javert have to say before I comment on Muffin/PM.

I'm NOT going to get into a shouting match and defending myself from Link/whisper because a)nothing will satiate their aggression and b) I just dont feel like it.

The gist: Ok VE, I'll post a shiny case on whisper. But not today. And you will be lucky to see it tomorrow.

You need to get into a shouting match to defend yourself? Why not just refute our cases against you, but direct it towards nobody in particular? Or you kn ow what? Why don't you ask Junpei to state every single point of doubt he has regarding you and you can refute that instead of just pretending that there is no validity to any case set on you by non-confirmed town. And while you're working on that shiny case against whisper, why don't you bring your case on me? I know I've got nothing to hide here, so please, bring all you've got.

[Hikari Link]

No, he's right...no one said anything about 'a shouting match'. Why is it that Link is being unreasonable asking for clarification of your reads, but I'm not?

Because he can't pretend that confirmed town is trying to twist shit for nefarious reasons, but he can with me.

Because he's scum and he's not actually

asking

me anything. Link can argue ad infinitum about anything I'd wager and he's not going to back off no matter what I say and it will just turn into a major back and forth which frankly I don't have time for. I'm lagging behind in a couple other games and playing semantics with someone who is practically conf. scum to me is not worth my time, sorry.

VE, you will get your case though.

Did you notice how I specifically said you don't need to direct it at me? It's a dialogue between Junpei and you, that's all. But no, any suggestion I have must be nothing but pure evil because I'm obviously scum for some poorly explained reason. That's the worst part. You act like you are so completely positive I am scum for such vague reasons that you can't even be bothered to consider a word I say.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikari Link,

I am wanting to think you are town, it slightly bothered me though, that in post #209 you call Donjosh town and specifically mention that he's probably not a power role. I don't understand what made you out that, but you also called him town. It bothers me, that in the situation of PinkFloyd, who Donjohs replaced out as, you threw any prior town reads away and pushed for his lynch. Did you consider him being DonJosh at all?

..In fact, Hiraki, you go as far to call Pink "obvious mafia" despite having read his two early replacements as strong town reads. That inconsistency bothers me.

Okay, first of all, before we go any further with this,

please stop calling me Hikari/Hiraki

, especially Hiraki, I don't even like that guy. I've asked you a couple times not to do it, I've asked plenty of other players not to do it. It's a pretty well-documented thing in this game and yet you keep doing it. Please stop. Onto the topic at hand.

Donjosh started out as my #2 scum read Day 1. The reason I mentioned PR was because it's the truth regarding what I felt. If I just said "not scum" because he can't perform night actions, you think scum wouldn't have just inferred that he wasn't a PR for the same exact reasons? But that was he extent of my town read on him and then I later called stormer a town read because of Mist, but expressed worries when he never really posted. Then pinkfloyd by also just completely lurking. A circumstantial townread on DonJosh that contradicted the way he was playing up until that point and just a handful of posts from Mist during the brief time she was a part of this game is not something I'd describe as a "strong town read" as you called it. The amount of content from the slot overall was negligible up until pinkfloyd. There's only so much towncred that you can squeeze out of about 10 posts and a towntell that wasn't even that solid. Especially since DonJosh didn't actually bother to come back to the game.That threw any theory I might have had about his V/LA out the window.

[Hikari Link]

Link, consider the following:

I'm a vanilla mafia
I have 3 other partners
at the most we have 1 other pr (RB)
at least there is one other person who can submit the night kill

Tell me why those four couldn't have been DonJosh? Furthermore, he could have done what many do and declare his action before the night starts.

He was going for 11 days, a lot can happen in that time, multiple days can pass. In a game with a potential Tracker/Watcher, it's best for Mafia to have all of their options open. Submitting the action at the point in the game that were at the time doesn't make much sense to me either. Of course, he could've thought differently than me, but in that situation, I'm not leaving for 11 days as either mafia or a PR.

[Hikari Link]

Consider that he had to leave. I say this because he did, he had to go to camp. He couldn't cancel camp, he had to go v/la.

Yeah, in that situation I replace out. Though if I know that's right around the corner, I never sign up to begin with.

[Hikari Link]

Donjosh said if the mod wanted to replace him out then so be it, they ended up deciding to have a temporary replacement though. You think it is more likely he has no possible night action than he is either i) irresponsible ii) wasn't aware of the camp until after the game had begun? Did you do any detective work to confirm/deny those?

Actually, I did bring up him possibly being irresponsible. As for point 2, I don't find it relevant beyond whether or not he should've signed up, which doesn't matter, since he did. I kinda just pegged him as irresponsible when he never came back, which could've been potentially disastrous had he been mafia or PR and CSL hadn't gotten a temp, which was my original point. He didn't ask to be replaced or express a desire to be replaced, he just said the mod could replace him if he wanted to, which implied he'd rather not be replaced to me. And to answer your question, no, I did no detective work. It was just a theory on my part.

[Hikari Link]

So then I believe we can agree there was not good grounds to assume he was a non-night action role based solely on his V/LA.

I'm afraid we aren't in agreement. If it were shorter, say even jut 7 days, then I would agree, but given the length, I still find that if the situation came up again, I'd be under the same assumption. It's by no means an ironclad guarantee and evidence to the contrary could easily persuade me otherwise, but I'm still comfortable with the assessment I made. How exactly is this relevant anyway? I'm all for a theory discussion, but I don't want this distracting from the matter at hand. However, if it is relevant, please proceed.

[Hikari Link]

This is worth discussing.

So, this is what happened: You said DonJosh declare V/LA, then you decided that it was too unlikely that i)he'd have a scumpal submit the kill or ii) that he would submit his night action early, and assumed (and publicly announced) that he was very likely not a PR or scum, and did no research (research with, is very easy to do) to verify it.

Am I correct here?

No, not quite. I didn't feel it unlikely that those things could happen, I felt that the decision was so irresponsible that it was not likely that he'd just run off for what could have ended up being multiple nights if he had potential night actions. The research to determine his level of responsibility struck me as pointless, since the entire game didn't depend on it in any way. It's an idea I threw out there and figured it might be important later in the game either when he returned or if he was replaced.

[Hikari Link]

So you think that 11 days could be multiple nights? So now you question the responsibility of town to not quicklynch the next day before he got back? No Link, we are talking about 1 night, there is no way DonJosh could have fathomed missing two nights in 11 days.

You could have done research to determine if the camp was foreseeable or not. And it is not pointless, as it determines if your tell has any validity, if it did before, which I don't think it did. The point is, that you were simply not in grounds to say that, and it was anti-town to do so anyway.

I've seen and experienced multiple days happening fairly quickly. Granted, it was with less players, but it can happen.

What point would finding out if the camp was foreseeable would have accomplished? And how was it either unfounded or anti-town?

[Hikari Link]

If it was unforeseeable, then the v/la is 100% no bearing on his role, as even a PR/scum would have to do it.

That's untrue. I once again must say that all he needed to do was say "I'm replacing out".

It was unfounded because you didn't take into account other likely possibilities carefully.

I understood that there were other possibilities, but that was the most likely to me. As it turns out, I was correct, so my deduction clearly wasn't unfounded.

It was anti-town because it put the slot into a position where if it is a PR it becomes tough to claim. Also, scum looking at that see "oh cool, not a PR, don't target them!" wherein DonJosh is town. There is no real benefit in telling town this so early. It is the kind of thing you bring up with a claim, and if you die, then so be it. But honestly, you must have some faith in town, no? Although then again, you did think that they'd quick lynch day 2 knowing someone was v/la.

Actually, it put him in a pretty good position as a PR, because then he'd be less likely to be targeted by scum. And I don't mind stating that he is probably not a P, because I fully believe scum would have picked it up anyway if I had just said "he probably isn't scum, because he can't submit night actions wile being gone". A quick lynch, for the record, is not necessarily a bad thing. Night 1 might have brought us a Cop claim with confirmed scum. We would've quick lynched and continued from there. Had he been scum and he lost a partner Day 1 and Day 2, Night 2 could've been dangerous for his remaining partner. On the other hand, had he been Watcher, it would have been his duty to watch the Cop Night 2. If the Mafia had made a play and he was the Watcher, it could've been just as disastrous for our side. No matter how I look at it, leaving that long with any sort of night action is just far too irresponsible and unlikely to me. What's more, I might have forgotten the point if I hadn't stated it in the thread, which would have been bad if it had become relevant later. I stand by what I said at that time and I'd say it again.

[Hikari Link]

Lets assume that you are right: Donjosh is vanilla townie. In this scenario, why is it pro town to shy mafia away from killing him?

It's not really any different than stating any other towntell, it's just that this towntell also happens to knock out the likelihood of a PR. Not explicitly stating it would have been pointless because it would have been extremely easy for them to read into.

[Hikari Link]

I mean, not commenting on it at all would have been for the best.

I concede that it might have been better if I hadn't said anything until it was applicable. In the future, that's a tell that I'll probably keep under my hat longer. Though I doubt a great deal of people are going to be gone for that long and not ask to be replaced.

[Hikari Link]

singersigner vote: Amished Tell #724
- because she said she was going to reread her predecessor
- clearly misrepresenting the core idea of the Amished Tell.
- unvotes to "watch her"

How am I misrepresenting it? These are Amished's exact words:

You replace into a game. Size/length doesn't matter. You get a town-aligned role (PR/Vanilla doesn't matter either). What's your first instinct? Get to scumhunting, right? (RIGHT!) Heck, do you ever have any instinct or thought to check what your predecessor did at all? Of course not, since you know he (and you) are town aligned and whatever he did was with town intentions. Also, you know that townies can be wrong so you don't have to worry about changing a viewpoint or a stance on anybody and looking scummy because you can explain it. Therefore, you have ZERO reason to look at what your predecessor did, at all, ever. You might look for his thoughts since you know that he's town aligned but ultimately you believe in your ideas and scumhunting much moreso than anybody else's, even if you know that they're confirmed town.

Same scenario, but you get a scum role. You then have to worry about if you're under pressure, what did your predecessor say to become under pressure, you don't want to rock the boat too much and therefore you don't want to switch stances. All of this means that you look to your predecessor *first*. That's exactly what PE did by knowing that his predecessor didn't post at all.

There is ZERO/NONE/NADA/NILCH reason for any townie to look at their predecessor first and foremost. There *is* scum motivation. That makes it one of very very few true scumtells. I've done it as scum, ABR, Jazzmyn, xRECKONERx... I'm missing some here but that's some notable ones just off the top of my head.

I fail to see how that is not exactly what singer did.

Hiplop vote: #748
- "settles" for hiplop because 'case is sturdier than he thought.'
- Link appeared to suspect AND forgive hippo early on actually. In BB's reads he 'disagrees with BB's point on hiplop' in #127 saying that he's got a townie feel…citing 'doesn't trust people with no reasoning behind their posts'
- In #161, presumably after catching up, he then puts hiplop at 'I think he's town'

That's because I couldn't go out and explain my reason for it. His answers to RVS led me to believe that he was actually the Watcher.

Who are you?
Lukes Father
Why do you play mafia?
Shits n giggs
Why are you not scum?
CSL wants me to die =[ damn koopa king
What will you be known for this game?

Watching you all, with the EYE OF THE TIGER

KC is interesting; I think he has something going on, but I do agree with LINK and Matt. He does seems be making baseless claims, null tell overall though

The answers all seemed like nonsense, which I thought might be an attempt to have people completely disregard his answers to hide his breadcrumb.

- #445 criticizes Cobbler for 'creating a "legitimate" reason to jump on the hiplop wagon.- #448 he responds to hiplop as if he were townie.
- #724 promises to go look at hiplop, "because wagons aren't stopping soon, blahblah"
- #748 creates a "legitimate" reason to jump on the hiplop wagon. Does so.

In what way is that reason "created"? It was a legitimate reason. There was clear misrepresentation there of who I believe at the current time was a town read.

- #872, unvotes hiplop AGAIN, because he 'seems legit'

Yes, because I asked him if he had really given up. Had he given up, it meant that he didn't have a claim up his sleeve. If he hadn't given up, then there was still a possible claim and I was hoping the wagon would be derailed before he'd have to make the claim and put himself in danger.

- #1016, suddenly hiplop is town AGAIN, is actually third on his town-scum list. A list, by the way, that puts BB (the OTHER wagon that he was to 'resign to' but chose hiplop in #748) at his NUMBER ONE SCUM SUSPECT. Not liking this at all.

There was nobody more suspicious to me at the time. He was about on par with Cobblerfone.

[Hikari Link]

singersigner vote: Amished Tell #724
- because she said she was going to reread her predecessor
- clearly misrepresenting the core idea of the Amished Tell.
- unvotes to "watch her"

How am I misrepresenting it? These are Amished's exact words:

You replace into a game. Size/length doesn't matter. You get a town-aligned role (PR/Vanilla doesn't matter either). What's your first instinct? Get to scumhunting, right? (RIGHT!) Heck, do you ever have any instinct or thought to check what your predecessor did at all? Of course not, since you know he (and you) are town aligned and whatever he did was with town intentions. Also, you know that townies can be wrong so you don't have to worry about changing a viewpoint or a stance on anybody and looking scummy because you can explain it. Therefore, you have ZERO reason to look at what your predecessor did, at all, ever.

You might look for his thoughts since you know that he's town aligned

but ultimately you believe in your ideas and scumhunting much moreso than anybody else's, even if you know that they're confirmed town.

Same scenario, but you get a scum role. You then have to worry about if you're under pressure, what did your predecessor say to become under pressure, you don't want to rock the boat too much and therefore you don't want to switch stances. All of this means that you look to your predecessor *first*. That's exactly what PE did by knowing that his predecessor didn't post at all.

There is ZERO/NONE/NADA/NILCH reason for any townie to look at their predecessor first and foremost. There *is* scum motivation. That makes it one of very very few true scumtells. I've done it as scum, ABR, Jazzmyn, xRECKONERx... I'm missing some here but that's some notable ones just off the top of my head.

1)

I fail to see how that is not exactly what singer did.

Hiplop vote: #748
- "settles" for hiplop because 'case is sturdier than he thought.'
- Link appeared to suspect AND forgive hippo early on actually. In BB's reads he 'disagrees with BB's point on hiplop' in #127 saying that he's got a townie feel…citing 'doesn't trust people with no reasoning behind their posts'
- In #161, presumably after catching up, he then puts hiplop at 'I think he's town'

That's because I couldn't go out and explain my reason for it. His answers to RVS led me to believe that he was actually the Watcher.

Who are you?
Lukes Father
Why do you play mafia?
Shits n giggs
Why are you not scum?
CSL wants me to die =[ damn koopa king
What will you be known for this game?

Watching you all, with the EYE OF THE TIGER

KC is interesting; I think he has something going on, but I do agree with LINK and Matt. He does seems be making baseless claims, null tell overall though

2)

The answers all seemed like nonsense, which I thought might be an attempt to have people completely disregard his answers to hide his breadcrumb.

- #445 criticizes Cobbler for 'creating a "legitimate" reason to jump on the hiplop wagon.- #448 he responds to hiplop as if he were townie.
- #724 promises to go look at hiplop, "because wagons aren't stopping soon, blahblah"
- #748 creates a "legitimate" reason to jump on the hiplop wagon. Does so.

3)

In what way is that reason "created"? It was a legitimate reason. There was clear misrepresentation there of who I believe at the current time was a town read.

- #872, unvotes hiplop AGAIN, because he 'seems legit'

4)

Yes, because I asked him if he had really given up. Had he given up, it meant that he didn't have a claim up his sleeve. If he hadn't given up, then there was still a possible claim and I was hoping the wagon would be derailed before he'd have to make the claim and put himself in danger.

- #1016, suddenly hiplop is town AGAIN, is actually third on his town-scum list. A list, by the way, that puts BB (the OTHER wagon that he was to 'resign to' but chose hiplop in #748) at his NUMBER ONE SCUM SUSPECT. Not liking this at all.

5)

There was nobody more suspicious to me at the time. He was about on par with Cobblerfone.

1) Singer gave an actual reason for why she was going back to look at her predecessor...that she had to see if he claimed. In fact, I'm surprised that you didn't take THIS as a PR-slip instead of 2).

2) hiplop's 'Watching you like an eagle' comment. Oh wait....you did. MoS died the night I checked him. *shrug* Interestingly enough, BOTH of those players were night-killed, NOT lynched. hiplop the night after the 'breadcrumb'

you

found, and SS the night after she 'breadcrumbed' PR. Curiouser and curiouser.

3) Except the reason you gave had nothing to do with the misrep. You said that because the other cases against him were 'sturdier than you thought', you had misread him earlier on and you now think he's scum. Yes, you mentioned the misrep at the time, but the REASON YOU GAVE was that the other cases swayed your thoughts...which is actually funny to me because they were in NO WAY swaying in my opinion and I WOULD NOT have voted hiplop based on them.

4) Oh, so you just took him at his word that he was 'townishly giving up and resigning to his fate'. A wise man once said 'Scum aren't required to tell the truth'...I forget who it was...but he's right. Scum are NEVER required to tell the truth, in fact their very existence depends on it. So why would you 'believe him' just because he said it? STINKS BRO!

5) A man after my own heart with the Cobblerfone reference. Yes, I remember how scummy Cobblerfone was, you didn't have to remind me. I relentlessly pushed his lynch with a dual-pronged PBPA AND META case. I'd probably say it was one of the most townie cases in the entire game, except that the end result was that it forced a cop-claim. /facepalm ......my point was that when you originally agreed to 'look more into BB and hiplop', being when you had your 'suspicion' of SS, NEITHER of them were altogether scummy to you. And after doing what you promised, you decided that hiplop was the scummier of the two. And yet, in your NEXT town-scum list, BB is amazingly your NUMBER ONE SUSPECT, and hiplop was your NUMBER THREE TOWN READ.

1. I did pick up on it. Which is the main reason I unvoted her. Observe:

If you haven't figured out why there's a reason I needed to do just READ his posts, then I can no longer help you.

But I'll forgive you after game if you turn out to be scum grasping at straws as opposed to just being dumb town.

Oh, I know what your reasoning is, but you're going about it all wrong. Apparently you don't understand subtlety, which is something I've seen from you already so it meshes well with what you are saying. You really should drop the charade, since you've already made it so blatantly obvious. As for the Amish tell, I'll give you your meta makes it possible that you are one of the few who dropped it as town, but it's still a tell that I fully stand by. It's possible for town to drop scum tells, even big ones, but that doesn't make the tell bad.

I had her pegged as a possible PR, but the way Amished describes the tell doesn't mention any qualifiers for the reason one ISOs their predecessor and the way that she was blatantly soft-claiming struck me as scummy, which is why she stayed on my scum list, but I didn't push her at the time.

2. Actually, it was two nights after she soft-claimed. But I don't see how you can blame me for that either way. Why do you assume that I'm the only person in the game who saw these things?

3. How was that not clearly part of the case reason I voted him? Why would I bring the misrep up if it was not part of the reason I was voting him?

4. I'm not sure what you mean here. He said he wasn't giving up, which I took to mean he still had a claim up his sleeve. If he had given up and felt hs lynch was inevitable, that would mean that he had no claim, which would mean I had misinterpreted his breadcrumb.

5. I was simply explaining why BBmolla was at the top of my scum list, since you were the one who brought up it being suspicious somehow. And where do you get neither of them being suspicious to me when I voted singer? She just happened to drop a tell that I have been lead to believe was pretty strong.

Junpei: Why do you think hiplop was killed?
Link: Idunnomang maybe they thought he was PR? ::oh shit, that breadcrumb isn't nearly as obvious as I thought it was...::
Link (later): You know...this breadcrumb here! ::teeeheeeheeeheee::

So since I'm the only person who mentioned it, that means that scum could not have picked up on it too? I'm not sure how it is a mark against me for reading into it that way.

So when did you notice that potential "breadcrumb," Hikari Link?

I don't quite remember. I think I noticed it when I was ISOing hiplop. The singersigner soft-claim I noticed almost immediately because she was ridiculously obvious about it.

Responding to Junpei now.

[Hikari Link]

Analysis on link

Doesn't like RVS

I thought RVS was meaningless?

I don't pretend to know every tell in the game. I was just suggesting that such a tell may exist.

Links first post was an affirmative stance on someones' alignment, reads list post 161. Thing about this post is that the only real reads that aren't wishy washy or null(for lack of posting) is DonJosh and Cobbler, who are scum reads. He votes cobbler, but I get the feeling he thought DonJosh was scum solely for teamhunting, so really only 1 actual scum read. This is odd because he has a town-scum axis in this post... so he was pretending not to have these washy reads perhaps?

I'll assume you mean first reads. I'm not sure how you read those as wishy-washy or null. Other I was as definite as I could be with my reads. Which ones don't strike you as defined? This was before I started posting a classification for my read with the analysis of the person, but I think it's pretty clear there what my feelings were for each person.

accuses donjosh of not being pr/mafia due to this v/la that is long, which is 100% bad and not at all something Link should have said

Well the fact of the matter is that I said it and I can't unsay it. And it wasn't 100% bad, it was 50% bad, at best. I could have left out the PR part and I probably should have, but it seemed pointless to me at the time, which I admit was a mistake on my part. I don't see where the scum motivation there is. It was definitely less than optimal, but it's not like it's not something I could've just kept to myself until the Night if I were scum.

Doesn't like hiplop wagon

Says cobbler vote is going no where and is fine with BBmolla lynch... yet doesn't vote change

Yeah, so? I also championed trying to get your case heard for as long as possible, which is exactly what I was doing.

calls singer on amished tell

Dropping the person who committed the amished tell for SETTLING on hiplop? whatever happened to not settling on lynches until right before the deadline Link?

She soft-claimed. I didn't have much choice but to begrudgingly drop it.

lol is this vote change serious Link?

It's a perfectly legitimate vote. I've already explained why.

Reads 2.0, all one-liners, says he's lazy but he did rereads of people...?

I said it might seem lazy because after all the rereading I did, each person by person analysis was relatively short, as you pointed out.

Reads 3.0. Worth breaking down as it has been a while since he posted much content.
1) BBmolla read is "recently null", but is still his number 2 scum read.

Actually, what I said was that most of his activity was null, in that there weren't tells there, but that there were a couple posts that stuck out to me.

2) Cobblers' new suspicious activity is basically Link using associative tells on Cobbler in relation to slots that are still alive as if the slots are town.

Yeah, I will judge people based on who they have voted for if I think that they have been going after town almost exclusively.

3) Empking null as always.
4) glowball read just comes out as null to me "was scummy, then descent was null, glowball is leaning town, really abrasive"
5) Javert is very very town for being an active scumhunter etc.
6) I'm also very town for same reasons
7) Seems like a nullish read on kcda

That was my town read on Kc slipping.

8) killerjester very town as well.. this one I really don't get, and Link hasn't commented much on killerjester throughout the game either. But not too high on the town ladder...
9)projectmatt leaning town I guess, although hes quite farther up the town axis despite being town for the same reasons about as killerjester.

Because of killerjester's reaction tests, which seemed like they could've just been an excuse for scummy behavior on his part, he was lower on the scale.

10) still null on Ray
11) Scumhunter has a town feeling
12) Says "if this slot is replaced, it's town, otherwise quite scummy" which is a very bad thing to say. It just invites scum to replace out for the good of the team.

I disagree. I don't really see a person replacing out just because it would make their slot look good. On the other hand, when I see a person lurking for a long time and constantly prod-dodging, I think that they are avoiding trying to be active instead of just lacling free time and that can be a scum tell.

13) Null on whisper/chkflip
14) null maybe leaning scum on muffin
Don't like the list overall, but lets see what the future holds.
Why did you think hiplop was a PR link?

I already explained that.

What makes you think that Muffin was scum?

He was the highest on my list of reads. You asked for my top 4 picks. Those were them. Muffin was always promising more content and rarely delivered, which was suspect to me.

Still believes the amished tell was dropped which worries me because I would think Link would be pushing on singer who dropped a massively accurate scum tell a lot more than he is (which is practically nonexistent). Fonz told me after 1119 that scum usually use this tell (as Nachomamma did), perhaps you are scum then as well?

Because she soft-claimed. I believe I did push her later before she ragequit, because I became fed up with her lack of content.

How was Tomie town?;total waffle on killerjester read

Were none of the times I explained why I thought she was town at the time that she was in the game sufficient for you? And what waffle? I still read him as town, so where is the waffling?

[Hikari Link]

Hikari Link, when were you "isoing hiplop" such that you noticed the crumb? Is this tied to an in-game post where you commented on hiplop after isolating him?

I was ISOing everyone while posting my reads. That's typically how I do it.

Okay, Link is caught scum. He claims that he saw the 'soft-claim' immediately, in fact references that in fact he DID see the soft-claim, and then states that it's for this reason that he proceeds to unvote her. Junpei is right - if he honestly believed that she had 'Amish Told' then her 'soft-claim' wouldn't have mattered.
It would've mattered if I'd been wrong. Especially with everyone telling me that I had used the tell wrong. I still don't see the problem, but apparently others do and won't bother to explain it. She even referenced a game where she had replaced into a slot that had claimed and so I felt it best to just continue some slight pressure on her and maybe she'd prove to be town.

Verily, it seems like it doesn't if you continue to read his ISO and interactions with singersigner. He speaks of her scumminess the rest of the game until she flips. And yet, mentioned NOTHING of the claim OR the tell after MoS flips.

What was I supposed to say? "I guess her soft-claim was fake" or "I guess the Amished Tell failed here"? There was really nothing to be said abut it.

Know what he DOES do? Give me a scum-read for 'implying content' because I said I had a scum-read on SS before she rage-quit.

VOTE: Hikari Link

You did imply content. There would have been no negative repercussions from you posting the case you claimed you had already completed. You implied that it was a big hassle for you and that it had suddenly become a waste of your hard spent time, but we never got to see the fruits of your effort. That is implied content, sir. You imply that you are or were going to do something, but then because of convenient circumstances, the information you collected is now irrelevant and not worth seeing.

Your killerjester read:
"As projectmatt pointed out,

he's been fairly quiet as of late

. He needs to post more content. His thoughts often overlap with my own, which

inclines me to believe he is town

,

but I clearly haven't been right about scum up to this point,

so it's

possible that he is scum

.

We'll see what happens when and if he starts posting content again.

"

I was just going to bold the parts that make this post waffling.. but I ended up bolding the whole thing.

I don't see how that is waffling. I have a ton read on him there, but I'm pointing out points of contention I have with him. Is it not expected to point out things you find suspicious, even with town reads?

Okay, Link is caught scum.

He claims that he saw the 'soft-claim' immediately, in fact references that in fact he DID see the soft-claim, and then states that it's for this reason that he proceeds to unvote her.

Junpei is right -

if he honestly believed that she had 'Amish Told' then her 'soft-claim' wouldn't have mattered.

Verily, it seems like it doesn't if you continue to read his ISO and interactions with singersigner. He speaks of her scumminess the rest of the game until she flips.

And yet, mentioned NOTHING of the claim OR the tell after MoS flips

. Know what he DOES do?

Give me a scum-read for 'implying content' because I said I had a scum-read on SS before she rage-quit.

Also respond to the bold in VE's post.

Already done.

If you have any more doubts, please bring them forward and I'll explain my actions. We've still got a couple days before we have to lynch.

[Hikari Link]

Oh Link, you didn't respond to that post at all. For shame. Please answer the following questions:

Did singersigner's soft-claim reduce the validity of your Amished-tell?
-If yes, why ARE YOU STILL ATTESTING THAT'S WHAT IT WAS?
-If no, then why did you unvote her?

After singersigner/MoS flip: Why did you not mention being wrong about the Amished Tell OR being wrong about her being PR?
Why was your first response 'VE is scummy because he claimed to have a case against SS and didn't share it with us in spite of the fact that it's absurdly irrelevant'?

I didn't?

What exactly constitutes a reduction in validity? If you mean did I second-guess the tell, then yes, I believed there was the possibility that she wasn't scum. I still felt she was likely scum, but I didn't want to explicitly out a PR when it was entirely possible I had been mistaken.

After she flipped, what purpose was there to mentioning either of these? I'm pretty certain I already said that. On the other hand, you had done something suspect. Implied content is scummy in my book.

By the way, I did answer it, I just fucked up the quote tag. Look at my last post again.

[Hikari Link]

So you're saying that you weren't going to lynch a top scum read because they.. softclaimed a PR in a semi-open setup which may have no PRs?

I have a policy against lynching PRs whenever I can avoid it. It's true there might not have been any PRs, but I still didn't want to force a hard claim at the time. Forcing a Day 1 claim is less than optimal.

[Hikari Link]

What about days 2 and 3?

I had bigger fish to fry at later points. There was a brief period where she was starting to look town to me, but then she regressed into lurking and while she definitely become a person of interest to me, others seemed far scummier.

[Hikari Link]

It feels to me like [matt]'s using 'towntold' to hide preknowledge.

That's one of my problems with matt. He frequently uses "towntold" but rarely (at all?) elaborates on what these town tells are. Which gives him room to say "well, I guess I was wrong about that town tell" if he says it about someone who's scum. Also, the fact that his major suspects all became town reads after wagons formed on them due to "town tells".



Anyway, I've mostly skimmed link's walls because I had him as a town read D1 but I'll actually go over his ISO later tonight and assess this.

@Link,

Can you link to town games where you've looked for or pointed out PR (or VT) soft-claims?

Actually, I can. That's actually what I was referring to when I said that singer doesn't understand subtlety here. In general though, I'm always looking for any hints I can regarding PRs. If I suspect someone of being a PR early on, then I am less likely to support a wagon on them because I don't like early claims. I'm also just curious by nature, so I like to try to find anything like that whenever possible. But unless I deem it extremely obvious or important to discuss, I typically won't say anything about it. I don't usually stumble upon anything, but I'm hoping to get better at it.

[Hikari Link]

Verifying a soft-claim from someone who is at L-1 and likely to be lynched is a bit different to actively looking for soft-claims and crumbs.

I'll wait until I've looked over you properly before I say anything else, though

Well you may have noticed that my experience isn't that high. I've only had so many opportunities to find breadcrumbs or soft-claims, so the question from the start is already loaded against me. I don't think you honestly were expecting anything from me that could be viewed in a good light, because what could I say? I can't exactly prove that I've looked for that kind of stuff and certainly not that I found it, because that would imply directly outing PRs, which doesn't make much sense at all.

[Hikari Link]

Verifying a soft-claim from someone who is at L-1 and likely to be lynched is a bit different to actively looking for soft-claims and crumbs.

I'll wait until I've looked over you properly before I say anything else, though

Well you may have noticed that my experience isn't that high. I've only had so many opportunities to find breadcrumbs or soft-claims, so the question from the start is already loaded against me. I don't think you honestly were expecting anything from me that could be viewed in a good light, because what could I say? I can't exactly prove that I've looked for that kind of stuff and certainly not that I found it, because that would imply directly outing PRs, which doesn't make much sense at all.

You're accusing him of loading the question Link? Really? Because he made a perfectly reasonable question, and because he didn't like that particular answer you gave suddenly the question's loaded? If it was loaded against you, why did you bother answering? Why didn't you say it was loaded before you asked it?

No, zMM is right. That particular instance isn't very good because singer was at L-1...you know, when a claim happens whether you point out soft-claims or not? It was a bad example, and you gave it anyway. If anything I'd say your response was loaded. You totally missed the spirit of his request - he's asking for a link to a game where you pointed out PR slips AS town OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAY. You know, in the context of what you're being accused of. Which we'll call PR hunting for lack of a better term.

I didn't think it was a loaded question at the time because I felt there was a possibility that there was a legitimate way to answer the question, but then I realized it was a trap. With as few games under my belt as I have, the sheer unlikelihood of there being another similar enough to this one to make is astronomical. I don't just stumble onto breadcrumbs all the time, as I imagine most people don't. Other than the context I pointed it, it's really hard to prove that I've been PR hunting, because if I never find anything, I have nothing to point to and even if I do find something, the situation would have to be just right for me to be able to point out in the game where I found it.

Here's something else that bugs me Link. You thought you found another breadcrumb in hiplop's post. Tell me. Why weren't you concerned about lynching his slot D1 since you so deftly unvoted him prior because you noticed his PR-slip? Something you said...about Policy-Not-Lynching-Possible-PRs..........oh yeah.

Actually, the key reason I voted him was this post, which was when he declared he had given up. My vote came shortly afterward. A PR wouldn't have given up because they still had a claim left. But then he kept on arguing even after that post, which made me wonder if he had really given up at the time, so I asked him the question whether or not he had given up

at the time

, to which he responded that he was just being a drama queen and so, I was back in the same boat.

So you're saying that you weren't going to lynch a top scum read because they.. softclaimed a PR in a semi-open setup which may have no PRs?

I have a policy against lynching PRs whenever I can avoid it. It's true there might not have been any PRs, but I still didn't want to force a hard claim at the time. Forcing a Day 1 claim is less than optimal.

Your claim is that you thought he was PR because of his 'breadcrumb'. Yet you believed him when he said he 'was not giving up' because, quote 'that meant that he still had a claim in him'.

Oh man. This is SO damning.

Explain to me how that is damning, because I'm trying to follow the thought process here. I think he may be a PR > I try to force a claim out of him > he says something that suggests he may have a claim > I unvote. That's a pretty normal thought process to me.

@Muffin, it's because people have a tendency to towntell when they are under the pressure of a lynch.

In regards to Link, I'm not sure completely on him being scum, but what Viserca pointed out, this one quote where Scumhunter and Link interacted with each other, it came off as a super, super plausible bus to me.

Link, if you weren't able to lynch Scumhunter today, who would be your next target?

My next target would have to be Empking, without a doubt. Those are the two I am easily the most confident in being scum, but Scumhunter is just a much stronger scum read for me. He's made it blatantly obvious these last few days that he is scum.

Looking through Link's ISO (I'll just call him Link so I don't call him Hikari by accident again), his play today shows a need to get Scumhunter lynched, and that's it. It bothers me intensely that he's focusing on ONE person being mafia, however, it appears he's not looking for any partners or considering that he could be wrong. But he's active, he certainly is. He's active enough which means he has some care for this game, however it feels like it's more on defending himself and not on actual scumhunting, and that bizarre level of over-confidence makes me think he's either bussing Scumhunter or scum going for an easy win.

I'm fairly certain I've already explained this earlier today when I did the associative tells, but I don't see a point in finding the whole team today. The reasons there are two-fold. The first is that might lead to confirmation bias later on down the road, the second is that it becomes a waste of time if even one of the targets is incorrect. As far as I'm concerned, I'd just as soon take out the two obvious scum and then work the rest out later as we watch the rest of the players and see who slips up. Right now, I'm only focused on defense because I'm trying not to have Junpei and VE misguidedly blow the whole game, so I'm doing the only thing I can right now to prove my innocence, which is fully and truthfully justify all of my actions up to this point.

[Hikari Link]

Verifying a soft-claim from someone who is at L-1 and likely to be lynched is a bit different to actively looking for soft-claims and crumbs.

I'll wait until I've looked over you properly before I say anything else, though

Well you may have noticed that my experience isn't that high. I've only had so many opportunities to find breadcrumbs or soft-claims, so the question from the start is already loaded against me. I don't think you honestly were expecting anything from me that could be viewed in a good light, because what could I say? I can't exactly prove that I've looked for that kind of stuff and certainly not that I found it, because that would imply directly outing PRs, which doesn't make much sense at all.

You're accusing him of loading the question Link? Really? Because he made a perfectly reasonable question, and because he didn't like that particular answer you gave suddenly the question's loaded? If it was loaded against you, why did you bother answering? Why didn't you say it was loaded before you asked it?

No, zMM is right. That particular instance isn't very good because singer was at L-1...you know, when a claim happens whether you point out soft-claims or not? It was a bad example, and you gave it anyway. If anything I'd say your response was loaded. You totally missed the spirit of his request - he's asking for a link to a game where you pointed out PR slips AS town OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAY. You know, in the context of what you're being accused of. Which we'll call PR hunting for lack of a better term.

1)

I didn't think it was a loaded question at the time because I felt there was a possibility that there was a legitimate way to answer the question, but then I realized it was a trap. With as few games under my belt as I have, the sheer unlikelihood of there being another similar enough to this one to make is astronomical. I don't just stumble onto breadcrumbs all the time, as I imagine most people don't. Other than the context I pointed it, it's really hard to prove that I've been PR hunting, because if I never find anything, I have nothing to point to and even if I do find something, the situation would have to be just right for me to be able to point out in the game where I found it.

Here's something else that bugs me Link. You thought you found another breadcrumb in hiplop's post. Tell me. Why weren't you concerned about lynching his slot D1 since you so deftly unvoted him prior because you noticed his PR-slip? Something you said...about Policy-Not-Lynching-Possible-PRs..........oh yeah.

2)

Actually, the key reason I voted him was this post, which was when he declared he had given up. My vote came shortly afterward. A PR wouldn't have given up because they still had a claim left. But then he kept on arguing even after that post, which made me wonder if he had really given up at the time, so I asked him the question whether or not he had given up

at the time

, to which he responded that he was just being a drama queen and so, I was back in the same boat.

So you're saying that you weren't going to lynch a top scum read because they.. softclaimed a PR in a semi-open setup which may have no PRs?

I have a policy against lynching PRs whenever I can avoid it. It's true there might not have been any PRs, but I still didn't want to force a hard claim at the time. Forcing a Day 1 claim is less than optimal.

Your claim is that you thought he was PR because of his 'breadcrumb'. Yet you believed him when he said he 'was not giving up' because, quote 'that meant that he still had a claim in him'.

Oh man. This is SO damning.

3)

Explain to me how that is damning, because I'm trying to follow the thought process here.

I think he may be a PR > I try to force a claim out of him

> he says something that suggests he may have a claim > I unvote. That's a pretty normal thought process to me.

4)

Right now, I'm only focused on defense because I'm trying not to have Junpei and VE misguidedly blow the whole game, so I'm doing the only thing I can right now to prove my innocence, which is fully and truthfully justify all of my actions up to this point.

1) So your thought process went, correct me if I'm wrong...
zMM asks question >
You go to research the answer >
You realize that the question was 'loaded' and no answer can be given >
You....answer.......anyway?

First of all, if there was no answer to the question, you shouldn't have answered it and said as much. First of all, it would be suspicious of zMM to ask you the question in the first place and you would have cause to suspect him. Second of all, you answered the question. What were you trying to achieve with your smug 'Actually, yes I can.'? If the question was loaded, it brooked no reply. Yet you replied.

DAMNING!

2) I'll get to later after research.

3) Certainly. The fact that your thought-process included "I thought he was PR, I tried to force a claim", as bolded, was as I said....

DAMNING!

You even have a policy about not forcing PRs to claim D1 (italicized). What happened to that Link? What happened to 'oh, that's sub-optimal.'

4) I didn't expect this from you Link. From SH certainly, but YOU?! Appeals to fear are

DAMNING!

.

PEdit: Oh that's rich. Empking is calling MY play anti-town guys. EMPKING! Get real guy. Your turn is next, don't you worry.

1. That is incorrect. My thought process is that it's a tough question, but I'm not worried because I've actually got an answer, but then when I'm informed that my answer isn't acceptable because it's not the exact same scenario as here, that it's loaded.

2. Please do.

3. It is sub-optimal. While I was writing my response, I had simply forgotten the reason that I had pushed on him. My response are not linear. I thought it was weird myself that I'd try to force a claim out of him, but I couldn't remember why else I would've done it. While I was responding to point 2, I went back to check because something struck me as odd and that's when I remembered the timing of when he gave up. The reason I voted him wasn't to push him for a claim, it was because I didn't think he was a PR anymore. Admittedly, my memory from over a month ago is a bit hazy and I sometimes have to go back and piece together my thought process because I don't take notes.

4. How is it an appeal to fear? He was questioning why I was defending myself rather than scumhunting. Do you want me to just pretend like lynching me won't lose the game because it will be perceived as an appeal to fear? The only reason you think everything is so damning is because you've already convinced yourself that there is no chance I'm not scum.

Link, so it is your opinion that VTs always give up when they seem to be the lynch of the day, and that PRs never give up?

Not before claiming, they don't. What PR accepts their lynch before they claim.

[Hikari Link]

Um...I replaced into this slot Link. He hadn't claimed or I'd be dead.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I never said he claimed.

[Hikari Link]

A PR who knows that they have a claim up their sleeve... PRs will stop defending themselves because they know once they hit L-1 they can claim and be fine, so why put forth the effort? Many people on this site are very dumb, so that reasoning is gold.

That's not the type of thought process I associate with PRs or with giving up. Especially Day 1, I'd expect them to fight all they can to put off a claim.

[Hikari Link]

*shrug* Then I guess it doesn't matter does it?

Look Link...I'll make a deal with you. Give me one...JUST ONE...of your scumbuddies, and we'll lynch you last. Is that fair? That way, you still have a chance TOMORROW to win with a mislynch.

Deal?

I can't give you information I don't have. Get this through your skull: I. Am. Not. Scum.

[Hikari Link]

The issue with Links last response:

1) Implies that Link can't take 2 and 2 and see if they equal 4 or 5

2) ---

3) "I forgot" is the lamest line in the book

4) AtF

Link, it's over, you played well, and your pals did a great job of making it seem like the consensus was you're town, but you've been caught.

So anyway, Muffin and Whisper are both gone, so I suppose the next person I want to talk to is projectmatt.

Projectmatt: If all town tells are wifom (and they are), then how can you form strong reads based not on scumtells, but wifom alone?

pedit: Oh, he's not scum. I must have been mistaken...

1. I'm not sure how it implies that.

3. That's nice, but it's also true. It sucks because it's one of those things that is literally impossible to prove.

4. Still no. I responded to matt's question. There is literally no other response I could have given, because that's what I was doing.

But for Posterity, here's why I read Link as probable scum.

1)

PR-Hunting.

As town, we should ABSOLUTELY NOT get in the habit of looking for breadcrumbs. Why? Because we might A) confuse our PR and B) out him accidentally. Link knows this. He's trying to sell us the notion that he ALWAYS looks for breadcrumbs as town, that it's just part of the way he plays town. But I don't believe it, because as I said before, I think Link is better than this.

2)

Spotty Activity.

This by itself is not an actual scum-tell...but look at when he's the least active! HO MAN IT'S WHEN THE SHIT'S GOING DOWN! He'd have us believe it's a coincidence...but I don't think so. Like for instance: where was Link when the whole shit with whisper and myself was going on? Where were his 'pro-town sentiments' then? He was content to sit back and watch and see what panned out. Or the KCDA/glowball scenario? Same shit, different day. "Oh look, two townies freaking out at each other...hmmm....I KNOW I'LL JUST FEIGN INACTIVITY AND THEN THROW IN MY TWO CENTS AFTERWARD AND CALL THE LEADING WAGON TOWN!!!!"

3)

Flipflopping Reads

Yes, reads change. I've been just as guilty of this one where whispersilk is concerned. But the difference is that I have a personal stake in the situation between myself and whisper, and my bias is clouding my judgement. I can see and recognize this. Link however, HAS no excuse for his waffling. Like, the whole hiplop/BB thing. He flipped and flopped between reads on them depending on which way the wind blew. I understand that reads change, but their play had not. There was no reason to change his read on either of them based on what they were posting between said reads....yet he did! Why? Because 'other cases were sturdier than he thought' or 'I can see BB scum now' or '<insert generally wishy-washy reasoning here>'.

4)

AtW (Appeal to Whatever)

This has been less prominent than in others, hence it's further down my list....but he's got 'em. Appeal to Authority, Appeal to Fear, Appeal to Guilt, he's got a whole slew of them. Ask me for further details, but they're there.

5)

PoE (lol)

Yeah, I said it. Right now there are 4 scum hiding in the game. I've got a town read on zMM, Jun is confirmed and I'm obviously not scum...that leaves me with....what, six? Between Javert's townie feeling play all game and PM's recent upturn in posting, what have we left? SH, Link, whisper and Empking. I'm reserving judgement on whisper because I'm still trying to objectively read her ISOs, but it's fucking hard because that whole scenario makes me seethe....so she's not the lynch for today. SH has promised a case on whispersilk, and he's got votes on him by my OTHER suspects...so he's not the lynch for today. That leaves Empking and Link who I'd be willing to wrap a noose around.

1. I don't really care what your stance on PR hunting is, it's something I will always do, regardless of alignment.

2. Actually, my inactivity generally corresponds with weekdays, as I was not at a computer for most of that time.

3. How did I flip and flop? Particularly hiplop. I voted him once, to my recollection. And BBmolla, I think there was a point at the beginning where I didn't think he was scum and from that point onward, I was on him. Please show evidence to the contrary.

4. I hate the appeal tells most of all, because it makes the assumption that the only reason it is being said is for nefarious purposes. You start getting angry and suddenly it's an appeal to emotion. You start saying that if a townie gets lynched in LyLo, it's an appeal to fear. And never stop to think that a person might just be genuinely frustrated or genuinely trying to not lose the game for town.

5. There's no way for me to combat this point at all, because it's all entirely subjective on your part.

[Hikari Link]

1. I'm not sure how it implies that.

>Question posed
>Answer found that has no real correlation with the current gamestate
>Ergo answer unsatisfactory
>Post anyway believe self to be right

Are you really so linear that you couldn't understand the flaw in your response before you posted it?

I don't know about being linear, but it seemed pretty relevant to me. It was an instance of me spotting a soft-claim and I was lucky enough that I had pointed it out in the game, proving that there is a precedent of me looking for such things during the game, but apparently since she was near being lynched anyway, that didn't count for anything. I don't see that as linear thinking.

[Hikari Link]

I don't really care what your stance on PR hunting is, it's something I will always do, regardless of alignment.

If you always do it, regardless of alignment, then why was my question loaded?

Because it's not the type of thing that's easy to prove. It's like asking me to prove that I forgot something or that I was busy and unable to post. It's the kind of action that can't be verified.

I asked you to give examples of previous town games in which you've done something you

always do

, and you acted like it was an unfair thing to ask of you.

See above.

Here's the thing: clarifying claims or soft-claims is one thing, but actively

crumb

-hunting is a whole different matter, because only scum concern themselves with finding crumbs.

Well that's simply not true.

If you consider the premise that both scum and town can crumb something, then looking for crumbs only helps if you're scum. It's not a town mentality.

I don't care if it is a town mentality, because it is my mentality.

And the fact that you can't think of examples where you've made assumptions based on crumbs you picked up when you've been town in previous games is all the more intriguing.

If by intruiging, you mean that it's "surprising that I've not been able to pick up more than one breadcrumb and two soft-claims over the course of maybe 8 games", then not really. The "breadcrumb" I saw here was in one post, while breadcurumbs are typically spread throughout several posts. On the other hand, most people soft-claim much more subtly than singersigner, so it's generally harder to pick up. Come to think of it, there was one more instance, but that's probably going to be thrown out too because I should've realized his slot had already claimed Doctor or because he didn't phrase it vaguely enough or something.

OK, so I've finished reading through Link's ISO.

The hiplop stuff is almost damning in and of itself. The fact that he can recall that he thought hiplop crumbed watcher D1 and his weird and mostly unexplained changes in his reads on hiplop + the n1 kill makes so much sense from the perspective he's scum.

If by "unexplained changes", you mean "explained completely", then I guess so.

Most of his later posts (end of D2 onwards) I was fairly null on - I didn't feel the same effort towards scumhunting he displayed early D1. End of D2 there was a shitton of setup spec (could barely keep my eyes open reading through it)

Something I have ridiculous amounts of precedent doing.

and after that he's just been pushing major town wagons that had support while barely pressuring anyone else.

As did a good amount of people. I can't be blamed because the people I thought were scum flipped town.

I found his pf read particularly interesting; he called him 'obvious lurking scum' or something to that effect because pf didn't realise day had started (I think he was just mimicking VE here because he didn't seem to understand that the reason this was scummy is because pf had posted prior to that in that day phase and still said he didn't realize day had started) and because he hadn't caught up in a 100-page game he replaced into.

So now I'm scum AND stupid? Please, sir. Even the greatest of idiots could tell he had already posted. I specifically cited that he had already posted earlier in the day and added that he was claiming he hadn't finished reading the game when his first post of the day was "rereads for me", implying that he had already finished a first time through, hence the prefix "re-".

I need to reassess my reads.

You need to reassess a great deal of things.

[Hikari Link]

"I don't care if it's town mentality, it's my mentality" is too relativist for you Link. Come on.

I once more reference the fact that you really don't know me. I do as I please and it pleases me to hunt PRs, regardless of my alignment.

"Cases are sturdier than I thought" doesn't explain anything.

Can't just say "turns out he wasn't a PR like I thought" now, can I?

You went from a town read on hip to a scum read based on cases that A) you didn't reference and B) without your own reasoning backing it up. You were clearly just appealing to the majority with your sudden scum read on hiplop...ESPECIALLY since you thought he had dropped a PR crumb.

Untrue. My vote came AFTER he had proclaimed he had resigned himself to his fate. I had seen his case the entire time, but I was downplaying the importance of it until such time that it became necessary to pressure him i.e. a later Day, someone else claims Watcher, he claims Watcher, etc. Once I no longer thought he was a PR, there became no reason not to vote him.

"Because that's not easy to prove" doesn't make zMM's question loaded.

The only way for me to answer the question "correctly" is if in 8 games I had seen another player who was generally scummy, but I had reason to believe they were a PR and so I had an inexplicable town read on them. Do you see how that question is stacked against me? But I originally came at it thinking all I needed was to find an example of when I had spotted a PR pre-claim as town. It's certainly a tough question, but not out of the realm of possibility. The question was only "can you link to town games where you've looked for or pointed out PR (or VT) soft-claims?", not "can you link to a game where you've looked for and pointed out a soft-claim or breadcrmb from a person who wasn't at L-1?" I would hope you can see how I might not think that the two questions were equivalent.

Also, it's NOT the same as asking you to prove that you were AFK or were busy IRL. You're discussing IN-GAME ACTIONS, which you should be able to provide.

That's simply not true. I can't prove that I LOOKED for anything. That's not an in-game action, just as choosing not to post for a few days is impossible to differentiate from being too busy to post for a few days from the perspective of anyone playing the game.

I'll concede that the new one you pointed out was slightly more akin to what I expect zMM was looking for, but you're accusing him of intentionally setting you up with an unanswerable question, which is simply not the case. A loaded question implies that he knew you wouldn't be able to find any instances of you doing as town what you're doing this game. I don't believe that is the case. The spirit of the question is good. A better answer than 'WTF LOADED' would have been 'Nope, I can't do that' or 'Well, there was THIS, but the circumstances were different'. Instead, you found something you thought was satisfactory and tried to pass it off as the same thing then accused the asker of setting you up. This is scummy behavior Link.

Because the circumstances are obviously going to be different. The question is unanswerable to any sort of full satisfaction as even the example I recently gave was only "slightly more akin" to what was being asked for. I can't give examples of things I DID that don't show up in posts, can I? It's simply not possible. And why would I, as any alignment, upon finding a PR, just blurt it out to everyone in the game? Short answer is, I wouldn't. As town, it would be hindering the town, as scum, it would just make me look bad. There's no reason for it. It's a fucking retarded question if I can't use examples where it was contextually appropriate for me to out the PR.

And for the record, you're not really building a case on anyone else you think might be scum here Link...I mean yeah, you've been pushing this SH wagon a long time...but you haven't built a case on him which is something you've accused him of all day today,

Oh really? Even if that were true, which I've just shown it is not, there is already consensus that Scumhunter is scum. Why does it fall upon me specifically to prove a commonly held belief?[/quote]

and you seem to be more interested in defending yourself now than you are in finding scum...which is NOT a townie mindset.

I disagree and I've historically made it known that I fully support the act of townies defending themselves. I mention it regarding Whiskers and Substrike.

As an interesting side note, there was another incident regarding soft-claims. I'm chastised for talking about a soft-claim, to which [urlhttp://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3340621#p3340621]I respond[/url] that it's irrelevant because it is irrelevant because it had been mentioned several times. But of course, this isn't the same circumstance either, since I didn't originally point out the claim, as I hadn't replaced in yet or somebody beat me to the punch.

[Hikari Link]

So Link, by your estimation, hiplop was town as long as he was a PR with a claim up his sleeve...but otherwise was scum and needed to die? That's what that sequence of events leads me to believe your thought-process was, correct me if I'm wrong. It reads like if he gave up, that meant that he wasn't a PR and was therefor scum. But because he had NOT in fact resigned to his fate, that it's possible that he was a town-aligned PR, NOT scum, which was what your vote indicated that you thought he was. Am I reading that wrong?

My problems with this thought-process are this:
1) First of all, whatever actions you saw that were indicative of his alignment being aligned with scum were still there, and the cases were still 'as sturdy' as they were when you voted for him. Now, I'm still not sure what 'case' you're referring to that was 'sturdier than you thought', but I very seriously doubt that it had anything to do with how he 'resigned to his fate'...because he 'resigned to his fate' based on peoples votes, which were based on a case which is 'sturdier than you thought.' So because he hadn't, in fact, given up, that made the case on him NOT 'as sturdy as you thought'? No. My guess is you unvoted him and started pushing BB because you then thought he was a PR with the intention of NKing him. Lo and behold, Maru got modkilled and hiplop was NK'd.

2) As a member of town, I'm more interested in lynching scum than I am in NOT lynching PRs. I get not wanting to force someone you suspect of being a PR to claim, but your actions indicated that you thought he was scum. Even your unvote wasn't convincing because it was based on whether he'd given up or not, NOT because you'd seen him 'town-tell' or because he was actually contributing, or any ACTUAL REASON...only because you thought he had given up, but you were mistaken.

Help me out here, I'm really having a hard time figuring out EXACTLY what your stance on hiplop was. Because you were so lax on your reads of him (by lax I meant lacking in reasoning, not that you didn't say one way or the other what you thought of him), I can't divine what you REALLY thought of him while he was still alive.

You've pretty much nailed my thought process at the beginning.

1. I can't follow what you are saying here, but I'll try to break it down for you the way I was looking at it. The cases were never not sturdy, but I didn't want to say the cases were sturdy because I was trying to curtail his wagon. The "cases" I were referring to were the cases against him. There were plenty of things flying around about him. But while I believed he could've been a PR, I felt it best not to press him. But then when he gave up, I came to the conclusion that a PR would not give up and be resigned to death, so I voted him. Then, when he continued to fight after he claimed to give up, it got me questioning whether he had ever given up. If he had given up for a period of time, my vote would've remained, while if he said that he had never actually given up, I'd unvote him and give him a reprieve until a later date.

2. I generally agree with the sentiment of finding scum over protecting PRs, but only to a certain degree. If I see other possible scum, I'm willing to hold off on a potential PR.

My thoughts on him while he was alive? Bad PR player or scum. I felt it was worth the risk to wait a Day or two to try to determine which.

[Hikari Link]

When brought to L-1 day 1, Link do you think any scum will not claim PR?

Seems likely. But unless he claimed Watcher and pointed to that post or claimed something else and showed something along the lines of a normal breadcrumb,I'd be less inclined to buy it. Though I'd still be opposed to the lynch regardless, as it's better to confirm a PR claim then potentially mislynch them just because their play was shit.

[Hikari Link]

So it is likely for scum to claim PR day 1. So when lynching day 1, we have to ignore the possibility of PR. Breadcrumbs are pure wifom, and your 'pr mentality' tell is marginal at best and is something that scum could do too.

Did you just say that PRs who claim Day 1 should be lynched? That's a serious question, by the way. Breadcrumbs are WIFOM, but I'll still test a claim before I'll take the risk if it isn't LyLo. I also agree that what I'm saying is something that scum could say, but it's also something that town can say.

[Hikari Link]

Force the scum to commit to the claim.

Huh? Again, serious question.

[Hikari Link]

That's why I think his play stinks of preknowledge. If he REALLY didn't know hiplop's alignment, thought he was scum based on the cases put forth against him, then he would've kept his vote on him. He would NOT have unvoted, he would have kept his vote on him and forced a claim out of him.

Incorrect. I would not press the claim out of himif I had reason to believe he was a PR. That's not how I operate.

While someone having a PR DOES automatically make them town, someone SOFT-CLAIMING a PR does not. And if Link thought hiplop was scum OR PR, the claim was necessary to determine which. Unvote does NOT work in the equation.

I wasn't trying to sort out which. As I stated, I felt it worth the risk to wait a Day or two before pressing the subject. Gives him some time to get results.