Open 331: No Lynching Town - Game Over!

[Packbat]

No,

that's L-1 on CSL

.

[Packbat]

VOTE: Ellibereth

[Packbat]

Well, that simplifies things for me a little bit.

UNVOTE: Ellibereth
VOTE: Empking

Reporting votecounts is common courtesy - there's no reason for you to cast it as scummy.

[Packbat]

Four consecutive posts - and I was. I expect the hammer symbol to come

after

a hammer.

[Packbat]

The four posts I was talking about were:

Morning!

VOTE: CSL

For personal reasons.

Vote: CSL

Vote: CSL

====[]

Let me give you a stream-of-consciousness recitation of my reading the thread:

1. Random vote, woo.
2. Random wagon, woo!
3. Wow, that's an L-1 wagon already.
4. ...wait, is that

lynch

already? What? *goes back to recount*

Repeated-equals open-square-bracket close-square-bracket means "the hammer has fallen" to me, not "Hey, somebody hammer!" The latter I generally see written out as "Hey, somebody hammer!"

[Packbat]

Clearly you haven't been playing the games I've been playing.

Anyway, I'm off to the shower now, and then probably to the subway - let me know if you see anything interesting while I'm out.

[Packbat]

Okay, I'm back from

work

finishing up

Professor Layton and the Curious Village

and ready to rock.

Let's start with the obvious: Ellibereth and Empking have been playing off each other, but that's not evidence of their being scumpartners.

Actually:

UNVOTE: Empking

Empking's play seems pretty towny, although of the daffy variety. And after this:

>Implying I look at this thread every 5 minutes

Unvote

Fine, I take it back.

...my play is going full-on ironic.

VOTE: CSL (L-1)

[Packbat]

are you serious?! I am not convinced CSL is town, but I'm definitely not convinced he's scum. There are only 2 scums, but the fact that CSL is at L-1 so quickly leads me to believe that he isn't scum

In a bigger game, I'd agree, but we only have seven players. The difference between one RVS vote and L-1 was two votes.

By Empking and Ellibereth

.

CSL probably isn't scum with either of them, but that doesn't rule out being scum with someone else entirely.

[Packbat]

Packbat, CSL, GET YOUR VOTES ON ELLI NOW

I'll

UNVOTE: CSL

temporarily while you answer this question, but why do you want us vote for Ellibereth, now?

[Packbat]

Okay, I see your logic now, izakthegoomba.

VOTE: CSL (L-1)

[Packbat]

CSL: If you're town and the lynch fails, you're likely to be shot for being conftown; who are your top suspects?

[Packbat]

Awesome let's stalemate until deadline and then no one dies we have no information and scum get a free kill-- the mechanics in this game are such that we have little risk and a lot of information to gain. Lynching Ellibereth will tell us a lot, especially about Emp and HipLop which may be why they are hesistant, but there is only 2 scumz. If Ellibereth is town then he will be here unless scum kill him at night, but we still have the information.

Deadline is twelve days away, we've got nearly as much risk with a mislynch as one has in a standard 9-player game, and the rest of your post is just wrong. Empking and hiplop haven't been "hesitant" about an Elli lynch - hiplop has been uninterested and Empking vocally opposed to it. Plus, a CSL lynch is much richer for purely

informational

purposes (plus, you know, she's scummier).

Pre-Edit: Ninja'd by Empking. Also, #118 is truth.

[Packbat]

Err, if CSL's town, I'm gunning for

hiplop

, not either of the Es.

[Packbat]

I oppose this 1v1 - I see no reason to believe you can't both be town.

[Packbat]

Err, if CSL's town, I'm gunning for

hiplop

, not either of the Es.

Wait, why?

I have townreads on Empking and Ellibereth. Whereas, if CSL is town, your vote was well-timed to rejuvenate a popular wagon, and one bearing two voters far more flamboyant (and therefore noticeable) than yourself.

[Packbat]

SO IF I DISAPPEAR A FEW DAYS IT'S BECAUSE OF HURRICANE AND SHIT

I'm on the borderline - probably even odds my county is hard-hit.

[Packbat]

Ellibereth might have been hit harder by the hurricane than I was.

[Packbat]

now I have a bad feeling about PackBat- why are you voting for CSL again?

My reasons are in my ISO - but on rereading, they don't hold up too well. And as far as I can tell Ellibereth has no reasons at all.

UNVOTE: CSL
VOTE: Ellibereth

(Also, the way he stuck in a votecount after I said reporting votecounts was useful - when what I

meant

and what I was

defending

was reporting L-1.)

[Packbat]

Which that is, by the way.

L-1 on Ellibereth.

[Packbat]

...for noticing that I was tunneling when you prompted me to check? What, exactly, gave you a bad feeling about me?

[Packbat]

I'm somewhat relieved you

didn't

hammer - the pace of the game has been pretty fast so far, and I wouldn't mind more time for discussion.

A list of my votes, with my best guess as to my thoughts at the time I placed them:

#9: Kinda random. L-1 rather than L-2 just because.
#11: Empking's violent reaction to my L-1 remark seemed off to me.
#83(& #97): Because of #22 overly strong objection to L-1 wagon (I had some thought that Goomba might be a scumbuddy of CSL), #28 "Packbat is town for not hammering", and (this is the reason I put in my post) #70 fleeing from the 1v1 deal. Oh, and a gut counterreaction against the "quicklynches are mislynches" heuristic.
#163: Reading in ISO, Ellibereth has provided very little in the way of reasons to vote for CSL, and his frenetic posting hid a lack of content in his posts.

Oh, and #168: check out #100-101 looks like a textbook scumbuddy interaction. Particularly with the way hiplop flees afterwards to the popular CSL wagon. And, similarly, #144-148 seem too familiar to be simply a player objecting to being denigrated.

UNVOTE: Ellibereth

VOTE: hiplop

If hiplop is scum, glowball is probably his partner.

[Packbat]

Incidentally, completely separately from any interactions with glowball, there's reason to vote hiplop if you have a townread on CSL:

Err, if CSL's town, I'm gunning for

hiplop

, not either of the Es.

Wait, why?

I have townreads on Empking and Ellibereth. Whereas, if CSL is town, your vote was well-timed to rejuvenate a popular wagon, and one bearing two voters far more flamboyant (and therefore noticeable) than yourself.

[Packbat]

"Made it pretty clear" as in "never said anything explicitly contradicting this", hiplop? Glowball and CSL are the two players you have voted, but you've not said a word about their being scum together.

[Packbat]

AHAHAHAHA, I thought it was 3 to lynch. My bad--- still this wagon could go either way. I don't see much reasoning from either party short of connections. I know for a fact that I am not scum with hiplop sooooooooooooooo if we are going off of pairings for lynching hiplop it's just bad.

First: connections are A+ super awesome, and yours are blatant.

Second: his CSL-wagon behavior supports suspicion of hiplop by itself - that's why I voted for him instead of you, glowball.

[Packbat]

Uh huh... you guys definitely need more backing than that. The only one who's bothered to make any sort of a case is Packbat but he is just suspect

...half a second.

*checks dictionary*

Yep, that's hypocritical. Elaborate your case on me, please.

I'm back from windmonsterland.
yay

Glad to hear it!

[Packbat]

I ser nothing in hip thst makes me want to vote him over glow

What makes you want to vote glowball over hiplop?

[Packbat]

I

know

, Empking - why are you suspicious of glowball, though? I know why

I

am, but I don't recall your case on that slot.

[Packbat]

*checks Empking's ISO*

Is it just the CSL connection?

[Packbat]

...then why glowball over hiplop?

[Packbat]

Because hip is a town read.

Let me get this straight. You're saying:

1. glowball is scummy because of glowball's interactions with hiplop, which look like scumbuddy interactions.

2. hiplop is town.

...what?

[Packbat]

Uh huh... you guys definitely need more backing than that. The only one who's bothered to make any sort of a case is Packbat but he is just suspect

...half a second.

*checks dictionary*

Yep, that's hypocritical. Elaborate your case on me, please.

Still need this, glowball.

[Packbat]

Also, many, many boos for all the 1v1 talk - that only makes sense when we can be confident that a pair of players contains exactly one scum, and no-one has offered any reason to think this is the case at

any

time the offer was made.

[Packbat]

or HELL we can get me today so you guys can drop this hiplop scumteam thing and then tomorrow all of you sheep me to victory EVEN if I am dead you will kill PackBat> Izak>CSL

Yeah no way is it a glow/hip team

WHY THE HELL NOT?

For the sake of all that is holy, if you're going to make pronouncements, include

some hint

of what your reasoning is. There are automatically two players in this game lying to everyone - make them

work

for it. Anyone can say "no way" or "confirmed" or whatever absolutist sentiment - but if everyone is forced to give reasoning, scum will be forced, too, and that'll mean that they have to bullshit, and forcing them to bullshit

helps us catch them.

glowball: why are you maintaining that I am scum? Include references to specific posts.

Empking: why is hiplop town? Include references to specific posts.

Empking: why is a glowball/hiplop team impossible? Include references to specific posts.

Ellibereth: are you still of the opinion that CSL is the player most likely to be scum? If so, explain why. If not, who is your top suspect, and why?

Include references to specific posts.

Pre-Edit: glowball: specific posts.

[Packbat]

I'm too lazy for all of that you should re read the game and look at yourself.

I did reread the game. That's what #168 was about. If you want to dispute the material in that post, that's

your

job.

[Packbat]

Or, in short: references or STFU.

[Packbat]

If you make town make stuff up then you won't be able to catch scum when they do it.

FAIL.

Town does not need to "make stuff up." In an all-vanilla setup like this, the

only

way town players acquire opinions is by honest reading of the thread. In the course of honest reading of the thread, these town players will make observations which incline them to various opinions about the players in the game.

What I am demanding is that they

state these observations

- be they as simple as "this post was slimy". What this allows is for

other

town players to repeat these observations, and form their own opinions on them, opinions which are likely to be correlated between players when they are well-founded and based on genuine reading and

not

when they are not.

Hip is town for being on the CSL wagon. Glow is town for his sensible reads in his last post.

Why does being on the CSL wagon make him town? I can ignore the glowball bit for the moment - I can understand it, even if it is a complete reversal of your statements for the past few pages - but in what way is voting for CSL on page two a marker of towniness?

[Packbat]

I tried to explain my reasoning in #168, Ellibereth - let me know if there's any part of that that requires elaboration.

[Packbat]

izaktown is compatible with hiplopscum - I don't think it provides much additional information, though.

[Packbat]

VOTE: hiplop

[Packbat]

(glowball/hiplop: two great tastes that go great together!)

[Packbat]

I've said from the start, glowball: the case on you is

only

your connection to hiplop, while hiplop is independently scummy. Voting hiplop strictly dominates voting you.

[Packbat]

pack reply to glow's casemathing
then I'll decide
to vote you or hip or csl
though I already have a good idea of who in my head

Casemathing? Are you talking about the L-1 votes? I've placed more L-1 votes than anyone else, but I've placed more

votes

than anyone else - and if you look at L-1 + L-2 votes, I'm in the middle of the pack. It's a statistical anomaly, nothing more.

[Packbat]

He disagrees with my cases? Help me out, here - I'm looking through glowball's ISO and I'm not finding much else.

(a) If you're wondering why I changed my vote right when he talked to me (#162, "I have a bad feeling about" being his entire case at that point), I have a general rule: whenever someone asks me "why are you doing

x

?", I translate that to "should you be doing

x

?" and answer that question instead.

(b) If you're wondering about the contradiction between my dropping an L-1 vote and my not wanting a quick hammer - I'm not afraid of L-1. I didn't want a

hammer

at just that second, but it wouldn't be a huge problem if we had got one, particularly if (as I believed at that point) there was a reasonable likelihood it would be on scum. In a game where even the newest player was fairly aware of hammer possibilities, I had no fear of an accident, and

intention

is likely to be informative. In other words: the cost of a hammer times the

risk

of a hammer was less than the benefit of the L-1, in my reckoning.

Give me something to work with, here. The last time he gave an explicit case it was for the L-1 thing and that's it.

[Packbat]

that's your discussion with him
i don't get why I had to be the one to initiate it.
(I'll read through that later, starcraft beckons >.>)

I really didn't care because (a) I thought his case was terrible, (b) I suspected he was just chainsaw-defencing, and (c) I thought I'd answered it to the satisfaction of any reasonable person. So I dropped it. I'm only discussing it now because you were curious.

And seriously? You promise to place your vote after I respond and then jaunt off the moment I do? C'mon, man!

[Packbat]

I can't rule it out from the voting history, of course - but I haven't been reading Empking as scum. Any particular reason for that specific connection?

[Packbat]

There are only four players who

have

voted for hiplop so far, glowball - why Empking over Ellibereth, by that criterion?

[Packbat]

VOTE: glowball

Pretty slick bussing yesterday, but you never catch

one

scum via scumbuddy interactions.

[Packbat]

I was ISOing, glowball - trying to figure why Empking was voting for me. (Also why you said you were voting for Empking, just in case I'm wrong about you.)

Empking: why townread on glowball?

[Packbat]

Explain how Pack is more town than I am?

I want this explanation, too.

[Packbat]

Thanks!

[Packbat]

Ellibereth, do you have anything to add?

[Packbat]

Ellibereth, do you have anything to add?

Thread hasn't been open 24 hours.
What the hell is this.

You've been online since day started - I figured you might just be hanging back and cogitating.

Ok, skimmed once.
Other game first and back.

Pack by far first choice asofar.

That's new - I await your reasoning with bated breath.

[Packbat]

Whence your confidence in their towniness?

[Packbat]

UNVOTE: glowball

Point me at anything?

[Packbat]

And Empking?

[Packbat]

My original case for that partnership was based on these:

Spoiler: #100-104

(Previous situation: CSL at L-1 with hiplop, Empking, and Packbat; Ellibereth at L-1 with glowball and izakthegoomba; CSL and Ellibereth have no votes out.)

VOTE: glowball

Seems like the scum to me.

Vote with no rational explanation.

hiplop shut your mouth.

"...this isn't the time to be bussing your partner, you idiot."

Goddamnit

Pack

HIP.
It's not scary for with him without the threat.

glowball is town.

Let me take care of my modded game(s) first before I do anything.

VOTE: CSL

RAGE BOILING INSIDE ME, MOAR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD etc etc

"Oh, right, I forgot - never mind!"

Spoiler: #144-148

(Intermediate votes: CSL places L-1 on Ellibereth and glowball moves vote from Ell to Empking.)

Yes. Any team that includes Emp makes sense as a scum team

great analytical skills exerting from glowball

Don't get sarcastic and mean--- it's unnecessary and rude.

wasnt being mean

If it was sarcasm, which I suspect it was then it was mean and uncalled for.

The whole tone of the exchange is odd - like hiplop is being scolded by his teacher, as opposed to an exchange between peers, and that implies to me that something else is connected to this.

Further data comes with #177, which invokes an imaginary glowball/CSL case which hiplop never raised as his reason why I'm full of it (can you say distancing?); #182-4, glowball protesting too much; #192-#229, glowball being incapable of presenting a case on his main target; #243, glowball answering questions for hiplop (with nonsense, no less); #254, hiplop trying to keep up the impression that he is suspicious of glowball while voting for someone else entirely; #258, glowball posts "whatever" and a hammer on the

not scum

wagon; at #282 glowball saying "Packbat is throwing around shit cases" and at #286 that my main target is suddenly scum with Empking - with a vote at #288 for that connection; and, especially, #302, "Packbat, do you still think I am scum?" after he votes hiplop -

my

favorite target.

I pegged hiplop

because

he was so obviously scum with glowball. I was nervous for a moment when you declared suspicion on me that my townread was wrong (I'm a good player to target from scum's perspective), but rereading their mutual ISO, I cannot with any honesty doubt that hiplop/glowball was the scumteam.

VOTE: glowball

[Packbat]

P.S. Sorry about the pronouns, glowball - I keep forgetting.

[Packbat]

*taps microphone*

Hello? Anyone here?

[Packbat]

My case is right here, and it sums up everything I had to present. I'm still waiting for anyone to reply to it. Or, failing that, for anyone to do something worth commenting on.

[Packbat]

While we're waiting for Ellibereth, glowball: any comments on anything in my epic narrative?

[Packbat]

I'll tell you this Pack: Elli ghets to choose who we lynch today.

Ellibereth can hammer if he likes, but I don't have a

townread

on him - just a process-of-elimination deduction.

[Packbat]

Predictable. Guess we won't be having any WIFOM gambits.

Working right now, but I'll reread and analyze tomorrow.

[Packbat]

Having just skimmed Pages 1-9, I'm feeling Empking more than Ellibereth, for a couple reasons:

1. Lots of confirmed townies are leaning that way.

2. Magic like #206-#210.

Not voting until I finish my reread, but that's the way I'm leaning.

[Packbat]

The only thing that really bothers me is how little activity Ellibereth has had all game. Against that, however, Empking has been quite active without presenting anything like a solid case for a single one of his votes, ever.

Yeah, looking over the game, there's really no comparison. Being as this is LyLo, I'm not going to rush anything, but I'm moderately confident that Emp is the last scum.

[Packbat]

I think glowball made the best case:

Because hip is a town read.

You never placed a vote on Hip and Hip is now dead scum

or HELL we can get me today so you guys can drop this hiplop scumteam thing and then tomorrow all of you sheep me to victory EVEN if I am dead you will kill PackBat> Izak>CSL

Yeah no way is it a glow/hip team

You already said that there isn't a Glow/Hip team

If you make town make stuff up then you won't be able to catch scum when they do it.

Hip is town for being on the CSL wagon. Glow is town for his sensible reads in his last post.

Again calling us both town, but Hip flipped scum

vote: izak

one of the three possible scum.

Izak wasn't scum

Let's lynch CSL. We can work out his buddy later.

CSL wasn't scum

Oh wait, CSL was clearly not scum with hip. That bit at least makes sense.

Vote: Pack

Here you vote Pack

I've just looked through my iso. I think my reasoning for Glow town was a little weak (it was based off saying we could kill him).

Unvote
Vote: Glow

Now back to me. You are obviously jumping for the most likely lynch. You came into the game trying to steam roll us and make us hammer PAGE 1! You're scum reads have been wrong and now you are voting me with Pack because I am voting you- simple.

Ellibereth, and Pack if you are town let's rid ourselves of Emp. I have done nothing scummy and he needs death

[Packbat]

Voting history, color coded:

Voter Records: Votes On Target
Post# Vtr | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 
hip
 
iza
 Pac |
----------|-----------------------------|
  4   
iza
 |  V   .   .   .   .   .   .  |
  5   Emp |  V*  .   .   .   .   .   .  | * L-2
  6   Ell |  V†  .   .   .   .   .   .  | † L-1
  9   Pac |  3   V   .   .   .   .   .  |
 10   Emp |  u   1   .   .   .   .   V  |
 11   Pac |  2   u   V   .   .   .   1  |
 22   
iza
 |  u   .   1   .   .   .   1  |
 28   
CSL
 |  1   .   V*  .   .   .   1  | * L-2
 32   
hip
 |  V*  .   2   .   .   .   1  | * L-2
 37   Emp |  V†  .   2   .   .   .   u  | † L-1
 40   
iza
 |  3   V   2   .   .   .   .  |
 57   
glo
 |  3   V*  2   .   .   .   .  | * L-2
 70   
CSL
 |  3   2   u   .   .   .   .  |
 74   Ell |  u   2   1   .   .   .   .  |
 78   
iza
 |  2   u   V*  .   .   .   .  | * L-2
 83   Pac |  V†  1   u   .   .   .   .  | † L-1
 92   
iza
 |  3   V*  u   .   .   .   .  | * L-2
 93   Pac |  u   2   .   .   .   .   .  |
 97   Pac |  V†  2   .   .   .   .   .  |
100   
hip
 |  u   2   .   V   .   .   .  |
104   
hip
 |  V†  2   .   u   .   .   .  | † L-1
108   
CSL
 |  3   V†  .   .   .   .   .  | † L-1
141   
glo
 |  3   u   V   .   .   .   .  |
163   Pac |  u   V†  1   .   .   .   .  | † L-1
165   
glo
 |  2   3   u   .   .   .   V  |
168   Pac |  2   u   .   .   V   .   1  |
174   
CSL
 |  2   u   .   .   V*  .   1  | * L-2
181   
iza
 |  2   u   .   .   V†  .   1  | † L-1
193   Emp |  u   .   .   .   3   .   V* | * L-2
240   Ell |  1   .   .   .   3   V   2  |
241   
hip
 |  u   .   .   .   3   V*  2  | * L-2
255   Emp |  .   .   .   .   3   V†  u  | † L-1
258   
glo
 |  .   .   .   .   3  ~V~  u  | ===[]
----------|-----------------------------|
          |  0   0   0   0   3   4   0  |
----------|-----------------------------|
264       | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 
hip
 
iza
 Pac | = Town
265       | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 
hip
 --- Pac | = Town
----------|-----------------------------|
266   Pac |  .   .   .   .   V       .  |
267   Emp |  V   .   .   .   1       .  |
268   
glo
 |  1   .   .   .   1       V  |
271   
hip
 |  V*  .   .   .   1       1  | * L-2
288   
glo
 |  2   .   .   .   V*      u  | * L-2
289   
CSL
 |  2   .   .   .   V†      .  | † L-1
310   Ell |  2   .   .   .  ~V~      .  |===[]
----------|-----------------------------|
          |  2   0   0   0   4       0  |
----------|-----------------------------|
312       | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 --- --- Pac | = Scum
313       | --- Ell Emp 
glo
 --- --- Pac | = Town
----------|-----------------------------|
315   Emp |      .   .   .           V  |
316   Pac |      .   .   V           1  |
317   Emp |      .   .   1           u  |
320   
glo
 |      .   V   1           .  |
321   Emp |      .   1   1           V  |
327   Emp |      .   1   V†          u  | † L-1
355   Pac |      .   1   u           .  |
360   Pac |      .   1   V†          .  | † L-1
380   
glo
 |      .   u  ~V~          .  | ===[]
----------|-----------------------------|
          |      0   0   3           0  |
----------|-----------------------------|
387       | --- Ell Emp 
glo
 --- --- Pac | = Town
----------|-----------------------------|

          Voter Records: Votes By Player
Post# Tgt | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 
hip
 
iza
 Pac |
----------|-----------------------------|
  4   
CSL
 |  .   .   .   .   .   V   .  |
  5   
CSL
 |  .   .   V*  .   .   1   .  | * L-2
  6   
CSL
 |  .   V†  1   .   .   1   .  | † L-1
  9   Ell |  .   1   1   .   .   1   V  |
 10   Pac |  .   1   V   .   .   1   1  |
 11   Emp |  .   1   2   .   .   1   V  |
 22   --- |  .   1   2   .   .   u   2  |
 28   Emp |  V*  1   2   .   .   1   2  | * L-2
 32   
CSL
 |  1   1   2   .   V*  1   2  | * L-2
 37   
CSL
 |  1   1   V†  .   1   1   2  | † L-1
 40   Ell |  1   1   3   .   1   V   2  |
 57   Ell |  1   1   3   V*  1   2   2  | * L-2
 70   --- |  u   1   3   1   1   2   2  |
 74   --- |  1   u   3   1   1   2   2  |
 78   Ell |  1   1   3   1   1   V*  2  | * L-2
 83   
CSL
 |  1   1   3   1   1   3   V† | † L-1
 92   Ell |  1   1   3   1   1   V*  3  | * L-2
 93   --- |  1   1   3   1   1   4   u  |
 97   
CSL
 |  1   1   3   1   1   4   V† | † L-1
100   
glo
 |  1   1   3   1   V   4   4  |
104   
CSL
 |  1   1   3   1   V†  4   4  |
108   Ell |  V†  1   3   1   3   4   4  | † L-1
141   Emp |  2   1   3   V   3   4   4  |
163   Ell |  2   1   3   2   3   4   V† | † L-1
165   Pac |  2   1   3   V   3   4   5  |
168   
hip
 |  2   1   3   3   3   4   V  |
174   
hip
 |  V*  1   3   3   3   4   6  | * L-2
181   
hip
 |  3   1   3   3   3   V†  6  | † L-1
193   Pac |  3   1   V*  3   3   5   6  | * L-2
240   
iza
 |  3   V   4   3   3   5   6  |
241   
iza
 |  3   2   4   3   V*  5   6  | * L-2
255   
iza
 |  3   2   V†  3   4   5   6  | † L-1
258   
iza
 |  3   2   5  ~V~  4   5   6  | ===[]
----------|-----------------------------|
          |  3   2   5   4   4   5   6  |
----------|-----------------------------|
264       | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 
hip
 
iza
 Pac | = Town
265       | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 
hip
 --- Pac | = Town
----------|-----------------------------|
266   
hip
 |  .   .   .   .   .       V  |
267   
CSL
 |  .   .   V   .   .       1  |
268   Pac |  .   .   1   V   .       1  |
271   
CSL
 |  .   .   1   1   V*      1  | * L-2
288   
hip
 |  .   .   1   V*  1       1  | * L-2
289   
hip
 |  V†  .   1   2   1       1  | † L-1
310   
hip
 |  1  ~V~  1   2   1       1  | ===[]
----------|-----------------------------|
          |  1   1   1   2   1       1  |
----------|-----------------------------|
312       | 
CSL
 Ell Emp 
glo
 --- --- Pac | = Scum
313       | --- Ell Emp 
glo
 --- --- Pac | = Town
----------|-----------------------------|
315   Pac |      .   V   .           .  |
316   
glo
 |      .   1   .           V  |
317   --- |      .   u   .           1  |
320   Emp |      .   1   V           1  |
321   Pac |      .   V   1           1  |
327   
glo
 |      .   V†  1           1  | † L-1
355   --- |      .   3   1           u  |
360   
glo
 |      .   3   1           V† | † L-1
380   
glo
 |      .   3  ~V~          2  | ===[]
----------|-----------------------------|
          |      0   3   2           2  |
----------|-----------------------------|
387       | --- Ell Emp 
glo
 --- --- Pac | = Town
388       | --- Ell Emp --- --- --- Pac | = Town
----------|-----------------------------|

[Packbat]

Well, no - there's also:

1. #106 - connection to hiplop.

2. #143 - interpreting "Scum lies within" as "

Both

scum lie within", which strikes me as guilty (also, as connection to hiplop).

3. #206-210, which will

never, ever, in the history of the universe

make sense.

4. #314-315: "Oh noes, I don't understand what scum could be thinking when they did the thing that scum did, because I'm not scum!"

5. You

never in the entire game

presented a good case for any vote you made.

In fact, I take back what I said about glowball's case being the best. The biggest thing I see is that you

never

presented a case in the entire game worth spit. With all of three exceptions, your every vote has been hopping on a town wagon near lynch and trying to push it the rest of the way. Ellibereth at least had some reasoning he could provide for his early CSL campaign, although he waited an awfully long time to do so - you had

nothing.

[Packbat]

1. Why would scum keep away from their partner's wagon the entire game, to the point of pushing any other wagon that arose the moment votes began accumulating there? The way I'm reading it, you're playing the zero-bus strategy.

2. That's not how I read it - although I see that's the way izak meant it. Fine, drop this point. The other four still apply.

3. Imagine, if you will, someone who is below the legal drinking age. Does this fact imply that they are breaking the law?

Only if they are also drinking.

There's nothing particularly scummy about those interactions

unless

you suppose that both of those players are scum.

4. Understood ...

what

logic? You act as if it was obvious, in that second post. Which, as glowball pointed out, it wasn't.

6. Begging

what

question? Nobody's bothered to present a case! The last case I saw was glowball's, and I responded to that when Ellibereth brought it up on Day 2.

Also:

no

response to #5? You don't have

one

solid case behind any of your votes to refer to? Thank you for conceding my largest point outright, scum!

[Packbat]

1. Your argument is that you wouldn't echo your partner's opinions. But the reason to avoid doing so is to look towny when your partner flips scum - but you're connected by voting anyway. Which implies you aren't worried about being connected - possibly because you can WIFOM it away, as you just did.

Given this context?

The specific way you agreed with him seems scummy.

3. When you catch scum by interaction, you catch two scum. My argument was that the interaction only made sense if both glowball and hiplop were scum. If they were

not

, then the interaction was meaningless. If you had a genuine townread on hiplop, you shouldn't have trusted the case to start with.

4. Repeat for me, if you would.

6. Fail.

7. Epic fail.

[Packbat]

1. When did I WIFOM away from it. Its not scummy in the first place there's nothing to WIFOM from.
3. No. That interaction made Glow-Hip pair more likely. That makes Glow and Hip more likely to be scum. Then we're back to the negative number example.
Just because I have a town read on someone doesn't make them a 100% cleared.
4. CSL was obviously not scum with Hip.
6. How?
7. How?

1. "Why would scum do that?" is WIFOM. #398.

3.

*checks Empking's ISO*

Is it just the CSL connection?

Iys your glow-hip conection. If I was to follow then I'd vote for glow rather than hip.

You treated the connection as your

entire case

. Your

entire case

on the slot was that they were scum with your

townread

. Does. Not. Compute.

4. Why didn't glowball see it, then?

6. ...wait a second, are you talking about my remark that "With all of three exceptions, your every vote has been hopping on a town wagon near lynch and trying to push it the rest of the way" from #397? Is your reasoning that I am painting you unfairly as scum because the one L-1 or L-2 vote you placed on someone who has not been

already

confirmed town, here:

unvote vote: Pack

- I agree with glow

...is such an incredibly towny vote that it overwhelms your wagoning onto CSL, your wagoning onto izakthegoomba, and your wagoning onto glowball? As opposed to looking like exactly the same kind of wagoning behavior you presented everywhere else, and

never

on hiplop, the only revealed scum?

7. In what way is summarizing the reasoning behind your suspicions

scummy?

[Packbat]

7. If town can convince town to lynch scum, town wins. And if scum can vote for anyone without defending their votes, scum wins. What part of this does not make sense?

[Packbat]

7. (a) If your cases are good, other townies will be convinced. If your cases are bad, other townies will be suspicious. And cases tend to be good when they target scum and bad when they don't. (b) MafiaScum players have been supporting their reads with arguments in

every single Mafia game I've ever played

. The only case which remotely resembles an exception was Shadow Dancer in Crazy's Campaign Mafia, and not only do his reasons in that game not apply here,

he lost

.

[Packbat]

Why?

[Packbat]

And this disagreement is for what reason? You're being evasive.

[Packbat]

We can argue about the relative importance of eloquence and accuracy to the response players have to cases, but that doesn't change the fact that you've given

very

little in the way of coherent reasoning for any of your votes.

That

is the fact which requires justification at the present moment.

[Packbat]

So hi

Sig for weekends etc.

Only skimmed
almost all this shit look like it doesn't relate to alignment at alllllll ugh.

See you Monday, Ellibereth.

[Packbat]

I do not believe I can advance the day without an opportunity to converse with Ellibereth. First, because if Empking is scum, as I believe he is, I need Ellibereth's vote to obtain a lynch. Second, because if Ellibereth is scum, I will need the time I spend discussing with him to discover my error.

I am confident, but I do not intend to be reckless. Therefore I will have very little to say before Ellibereth has a chance to catch up and discuss on Monday.

[Packbat]

Ellibereth didn't need a prod - he was V/LA all weekend.

[Packbat]

Ten-four.

[Packbat]

Bump?

[Packbat]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Packbat]

PACK
i don't care why emp is scum
why are you town
like
one post
or BAM thing
that's town

same thing for Emp

Please tell me that I have not been waiting five days for

this.

Finding out whether I'm scum or town is

your

job, not mine.

All I can tell you is this: for the entire game, I have had as my one and only goal identifying and lynching scum. If that's not clear from my posting history, so be it - but that's the way I've played.

[Packbat]

I. Can't. Do. Your. Job. For. You.

Read my posts, and if there's anything that

doesn't

make sense as town, ask and I shall explain - but I can't do your

job

for you. Not only do I not know what you consider to be evidence of towniness, I don't

care

what you consider to be evidence of towniness. What I care about is

identifying and lynching the fucking scum

, pardon my French. And begging your pardon, not only did glowball dying not make you God, much less conftown, so get off your damn high horse.

[Packbat]

Empking, just out of curiosity: what's your read on Ellibereth based on?

[Packbat]

Empking, just out of curiosity: what's your read on Ellibereth based on?

The CSL wagon was obv not me & Scum.

...can you say that again so it makes sense?

[Packbat]

Why should I believe that?

[Packbat]

Why should I believe that?

Because

your role PM makes it obvious

stop asking me questions, I want to lynch you

.

Fixed it for you.

[Packbat]

I'm not asking you to wonder if you're scum - if you are, you know. I'm asking, on the off chance you're town, to wonder if

Ellibereth

is scum. CSL was town and Ellibereth was driving the CSL wagon. What is it about Ellibereth's behavior that is unambiguously towny?

[Packbat]

Remember:

you cited

that wagon as proof of Ellibereth-town. Why?

[Packbat]

Winning already, how?

[Packbat]

...interesting, but a question: why

haven't

you voted me, then?

[Packbat]

...might I suggest rereading the game?

[Packbat]

Right now, as far as I can see there's only two possibilities.

One: you're hesitating to vote because you're town and you have the salutary instinct that something is not quite right with your analysis - specifically, the fact that scum who vote early at LyLo often make people suspicious of themselves.

Two: you're

refusing

to vote because you're scum and you think voting early in LyLo often makes people suspicious of you.

In the former case, rereading the game is your best chance at victory.

In the latter case, sucking up to the only townie who previously voiced serious suspicions on a townie - Ellibereth - is your best chance at victory.

I'm interested to see what you actually do.

[Packbat]

Ellibereth is not here. You, Empking,

are

. That means I have little ability to improve my El-read over the next two days. Therefore, I'm attacking the problem from the other angle: testing

you

.

VOTE: Empking

[Packbat]

No, town would have votes because they know who the scum is, because the remaining player is conftown -

or

they wouldn't have called the remaining player conftown in the first place. Nice try.

[Packbat]

Okay - I'm the one who lost that LyLo for town. Good job, Ellibereth.