Open 319: Jungle Republic - Day 5: Calamity *GAME OVER*

[Thor665]

Maybe because DJ could be a wolf with you?

That is blatantly not the situation though.

[havingfitz]

Maybe because DJ could be a wolf with you?

That is blatantly not the situation though.

Or he could be a f*cking wolf with Sky. FFS Thor...pull your head out of your arse and vote Sky. Unless you're actually trying to hand the game to the wolves.

[Thor665]

I don't even know why you're cursing at me - I was agreeing with your standpoint in that quote.
Pull your head out of your nether regions and lynch confirmed scum when you have the chance so we don't end up in these situations?
Why do you think DJ was so willing to bus Sky earlier today off a DK case?

[havingfitz]

First off...its a game and no offense intended. I'm frutrated...at you L-1 vote on me as well as my missed opportunity re DJ yesterday. Though I still have my rationale for thinking I was right (before it became a point against me).

What bussing are you referring to (I on my phone again so searching for it is a pain)? I would assume it is just that ...bussing.

[Thor665]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p3457968

Start there and work down. It's weaksauce play if he's town, but there's a period of multiple hours where, theoretically all that needs to happen is scum Thor to back his buddy's play and one town to be sold on the idea.

[havingfitz]

Yeah...and he almost immediately unvotes and a page or two later he winds up on me. Despite not even considering Sky as a seer. The only reason he has to vote me is because I call him out ass a wolf. Which supports my case for being legit. If I was going to fakeclaim and push the case on Sky I could have said DJ was town and probably garnered his vote on Sky.

Sky and DJ are wolf buddies.

[DonJosh]

On that note however...if I was a wolf...WTH wouldn't I have hammered DJ?

Um... because quickhammers are extremely scummy? Weak defense.

Yeah...and he almost immediately unvotes and a page or two later he winds up on me. Despite not even considering Sky as a seer. The only reason he has to vote me is because I call him out ass a wolf. Which supports my case for being legit. If I was going to fakeclaim and push the case on Sky I could have said DJ was town and probably garnered his vote on Sky.

Sky and DJ are wolf buddies.

1. Obviously I'm voting you cuz you say I'm wolf. I know for a fact that you're lying.
2. Choosing me is obv-WIFOM

[sageamagoo]

On that note however...if I was a wolf...WTH wouldn't I have hammered DJ?

Um... because quickhammers are extremely scummy? Weak defense.

Yeah...and he almost immediately unvotes and a page or two later he winds up on me. Despite not even considering Sky as a seer. The only reason he has to vote me is because I call him out ass a wolf. Which supports my case for being legit. If I was going to fakeclaim and push the case on Sky I could have said DJ was town and probably garnered his vote on Sky.

Sky and DJ are wolf buddies.

1. Obviously I'm voting you cuz you say I'm wolf. I know for a fact that you're lying.
2. Choosing me is obv-WIFOM

And this post was completely and 100% necessary.
I have nothing to add... Sky is still wolf (mostly because of Fitz's claim against DJ) and my vote is staying put. I'm sorry, but I can't do anything useful at this point.

[Shadowmod]

Prodding Deity...

DonJosh (0/4) - sageamagoo sageamagoo (0/4) - DonJosh Sky (3/4) - DeityKabuto , DonJosh , havingfitz , DeityKabuto , sageamagoo , DeityKabuto havingfitz (3/4) - Sky , DonJosh , DeityKabuto , Thor665 Not Voting (0/6): With 6 Players alive it requires 4 Votes to lynch / 3 to nolynch. Deadline will be reached on Monday October 10th 2011, 6:00 p.m. Forum Time [UTC-6].

(expired on 2011-10-10 18:00:00)

till Day 3 Deadline

[DeityKabuto]

Unvote
Vote havingfitz

GG.

[Thor665]

All over but the tallywacking now.

Fitz came close with the argument for playing for DJ's support...but I'm not sure it's as obvious and open that it was going to play like that. Eh, just mentioning that was his best argument and he whips it out and DK swoops for the alley oop before I can mull it over fully.

Still, if Sky is Wolf then...well, I think she and DJ owe a lot to fitz not hammering DJ
If fitz is indeed wolf, then that's where he went wrong with how he played it.

[Shadowmod]

DonJosh (0/4) - sageamagoo sageamagoo (0/4) - DonJosh Sky (2/4) - DeityKabuto , DonJosh , havingfitz , DeityKabuto , sageamagoo , DeityKabuto havingfitz (4/4) - Sky , DonJosh , DeityKabuto , Thor665 , DeityKabuto Not Voting (0/6): With 4 Votes havingfitz Has Been Lynched!

[Shadowmod]

I was roaming around a bit, things becam pretty boring around here in the recentl hours. I really hoped this'd be more entertaining... Have I missed something? Hmm, looks like I have. Nice of you to portion the meat already, that'll safe me some work. But why did you need to scatter them all over the yard? Couldn't you just have made a nice heap or pile or something? *Headshake* Humans... No resepect for food whatsoever... What you asking? The fur? What do you think it means? Of yourse he was a werewolf, what else did you assume - a wild boar? Ah, now I understand your question... Well, not really... I could never comprehend you human's rejection of cannibalism, I mean, you can't live anthropophag all the time, it's all part of a divers diet. Wolf meat is rich in vitamin B and unsaturated fatty acids. Didn't you know that? Speaking of which has really made me hungry now. Please excuse myself then, it's dinner time!

havingfitz -

Werewolf

- Lost connection between the bits of him.

Night 4 has begun. Werewolves and highwaymen are allowed to use their night talk topics. You have three days to send in your night actions. If you all agree I can end the night earlier once I have received all actions. Just PM me if you agree (scum can use their respective quicktopics to do this of course). Night 4 Deadline is Monday, October 10th 2011 at 6:00 p.m. Forum Time (UTC-6).

(expired on 2011-10-10 18:00:00)

till Night 4 Deadline

[Shadowmod]

Another morning dawns over the forest. But something is different. The whole place seems... forsaken... Only the penetrant and rather grotesque mixture of scents, fresh blood and foul meat, that you had become so used to that you had almost been able to ignore it, seems stronger than ever... Hey there! Listen, this is an important announcement I have to make. First of all let me point you to the... construct at the village gate. You should definitely have a closer look on your way out, it's a very informative thing! Do you know that the average human has about two square metres of skin? Well, that one had a lot more, I can tell you, as you will agree with me is very well displayed by the arrangement of the thing. I f you h aven't seen this, you have no idea what this number means! What this most of all is expected to signify however is what is the natural destination of those who dare challenge us wolves! Lyc anth ropolo gists... Bah! There's nothing worse than rebellious food. And we don't tollereate that.

Sky -

Seer

- Turned into a piece of modern art.

Furthermore you might wonder by now where sageamagoo is gone. I can tell you he's right here. Well... at least his heart is. .. and... ce rtain o ther parts... in my stomach. Unfortuntately Furry threw the game by killing Sky... And I can not tolerate such cowardice! It's absolutely intollerable, unw orthy of a werewo lf. I had to tak e care of that problem. I see, you... have that look again. You humans are so slo w to under stand such things... It's fr an kly quite simple, it's all a m atter of natur al sel ection. That you humans can't understan d tha t... No wonder you haven't evolved past the st ate of staple foods yet...

sageamagoo -

Werewolf

- Fell victim to natural selection.

In case you ha ven't fig ured it out yourselves yet - this m eans that our lit tle game here is over. Well , at least as far as you are concerned it is. Us wolves we're gonna have our traditi onal after -game-feast at our den... Which remind s me... W e're still lacking a proper roast... You won't min d if I take that Josh-g uy fo r that, will you?

DonJosh -

Townie

- Destined for suckling.

That leaves t he two of.. . you... Quite fra nkl y I tried, bu t you nauseous b ums are just too dis gusting to eat... An imposit ion for every stomach... Just hurry th at you get out of my s ight! That is... Some one needs to clear all this mess up, and it's not gonna be m e. It has to be n ice again for the next game. But after yo u've done th at, well... Get l ost! O ne day sho uld be enough. P ast that the pack w ill hun t you down and kill y ou, just for the fun of it. So you bett er make sure your malo dour has faded by then.

Thor665 -

Mafia

- sadly turned out inedible.
DeityKabuto -

Mafia

- sadly turned out inedible.

Mafia

Wins!

That's it, folks! Game's over, mafia won. I had a bit of a tough decision to make at the end in whether or not I should allow sage to nightkill Sky because he made clear that he was fully aware that this would lose him the game, hence he was playing against his win condition. I decided to allow it and (symbolically, it obviously doesn't make any difference for the eventual outcome) modkill him for it. Technically the endgame situation of 1:1:2 with every role being confirmed would have been a draw because no one could have made any winning move without the help of another faction (which would then obviously make a move that would result in their demise). Let me discuss this because no one of you seems to have ever considered the possibility of a draw. If it's 1:1:2 and day town does not have the majority neccessary to lynch on their own. They'd need to lynch wolf and mafia in that exact order to win, but because the last highwayman was confirmed he would not have supported the wolf lynch that would eventually have him endgamed by town. Mafia could lynch a townie, but would then be nightkilled by the last wolf for a wolf win. On the other hand if he helps town to lynch the wolf he ends up lynched himself after that. Finally the wolf can try and get either mafia or town lynched, but that would mean that with the night kill it's 1:0:1 wolf win and therefore neither town nor mafia has any incentive to support that lynch. So with every one playing correctly a no-lynch would occur. Then it's still 1:1:2 and night. If the wolf kills a townie it results in a 1:1:1 kingmaker mafia win, if he kills the last highwayman it's 1:0:2 with two confirmed townies (seer would have confirmed either last wolf or last townie this night) and hence a sure town win. According to that the wolf would not night-kill either. This is a typical "happily ever after situation" (or in our case I would have called it a "miserably ever after" ) However, town was just lethargic towards the end and sage basically threw in the towel with his night kill decission, indicating that neither of them had really thought through all the consequences and didn't see any chance to not lose, whereas mafia (or at least Thor) showed a strong will to fight this through and try to go for the win. Furthermore I also wouldn't have intervened with any bad voting (and, as shown above, basically any voting but "nolynch" would have been bad for every one). So intervening in case of a bad night kill would have been way too much involvement from mod side for my taste. I assume that sage is inexperienced really did not consider the possibility of achieving a draw. It is now post-game. I'd like you all to comment on the game and do some final analysis. Share your thoughts about my modding, the setup, improvements you want to suggest and, if you like, each other.

[Shadowmod]

Now that this place looks habitable again, allow me to take you around on a little tourist tour, you know how it is, you are away from home but so full with ... work... that you don't get around to see any of the great things around... So here are some places that you might have missed so far:

A peaceful glade under the full moon

(wolf QT)

A secret hideout in the forest

(highwaymen QT)

And, of course, a whole other world that lies beyond... on the other side

(the dead thread)

---

---

Night Action Overview

Night 1:

Sky

investigates

whispersilk

- receives "

not a Werewolf

".

havingfitz

kills

The Tick

.

Night 2:

Sky

investigates

Thor665

- receives "

not a Werewolf

".

havingfitz

kills

TheFool

.

Night 3:

Sky

investigates

DeityKabuto

- receives "

not a Werewolf

".

havingfitz

kills

whispersilk

.

Night 4:

Sky

investigates

sageamagoo

- receives "

Werewolf

".

sageamagoo

kills

Sky

.

[/font]

[DonJosh]

Wow sage -.-
The flavour was AMAZING, Shadow! I really loved it. You took the time to format every votecount, every announcement, and the graphics were great. Loved the amount of mod effort. It made the game experience so much better.

GG, everyone. And good job, Thor and DK!

[BBmolla]

Well. Good game.

I thought I was having a pretty good game up until Day 3, then I just got really lazy. Take note, I don't think a wagon started up for me anywhere, so at some point I pretty much decided I was free to do whatever the hell I wanted.

Thor is a scary fellow.

Good game all.

In regards to the setup, it's extremely tough for wolves to win in my opinion. Not only are they gimped on members as opposed to the mafia, they also have a cop who only sees them. So, in order for us to win, we have to:

1. Stay alive.
2. Kill the seer.
3. Kill mafia or get them lynched.

If one wolf dies, the seer lives, or 2/3 of the mafia lives, wolves pretty much lose.

In general the rules regarding kingmaker in this setup should be made clearer.

Besides that, you were a really good mod Shadow, your flavor was spectacular and you were constantly on me for not posting, sorry for flaking.

EDIT: Alright, never mind my saying it's extremely tough for werewolves, according to the wiki werewolves actually have quite a few wins. Killing the seer is essential though, in all werewolf wins the seer dies in one of the first two nights.

[Shadowmod]

That is the inherent swinginess of hard cop roles... They survive -> town autowins, they die early/before claiming -> almost scum autowin...

It'd probably be good to think about a derivative of this setup that has some other town PR(s) instead. The basic idea with two asymmetric scum factions is very interesting in my opinion.

Another thing worth considering is making this 13 players obiously. But I haven't done the math yet to make a final decission on optimized numbers for each faction. A possible drawback of that is that the game would more likely converge towards a kingmaker situation for town. But on the other hand statistically (according to the wiki) mafia is the faction that did the worst so far in this setup... But then again it hasn't been run nearly often enough to get statistically significant results...

Win conditions need change in the wiki insofar that 2:2:1 daystart needs to be considered a mafia win analogously to 1:1:1. There's another Jungle Republic running right now, I think the mod mannaged to write the wincons down quite concisely...

What I would definitely add is a strict lynch majority rule that a lynch on the biggest waggon always occurs at deadline unless there'san explicit majority for no-lynch. That would allow town to force a win in a situation like in this game where it is 1:1:2 with all roles confirmed. However, mafia and wolves could still cooperate to force a no-lynch then (via no-lynch vote).

However, I don't see this situation even occur very often because it could only occur this time as the result of bad mafia play. Had not both of them claimed (and done it before the seer claim which made their claim futile anyway) there would have been no way to tell the last townie from the unclaimed mafioso.

What I'll definitely change in my next game is making the deadlines much shorter and be more benevolent concerning extensions instead. Basically every day after D1 of this game seemed just to drag on and stall at one point or another.

[Thor665]

"I'm actually getting a scum feel from Thor as well. He talks about how good DK is at finding scum from Day 3 onwards but then he keeps saying DK would be a good lynch. Why would town want to lynch someone who is good at finding scum from D3 on?"

Aw man fitz, this and that DJ+Thor because I wouldn't vote him despite pushing for him? You were seriously and in all honesty regarding them as legit tells, and I was seriously bewildered by how badly you were mis-understanding/repping me.

That DK thing was intended as a joke - and I've made that sort of joke on players before (when I'm town) basically I was calling him a good scumhunter and telling scum to kill him when the (I thought clear) joke was that I didn't think he was a good scumhunter, never expected him to become better, and wanted scum to work as a Vig for me by offing him.

Also - I never seriously advocated a DJ lynch - ever. I know where you think I did, but I really wasn't and was dead serious in being confused by your assertion that I had.

"I also think whatever team Thor is on is going to lose. I think he's going to sink his crew."
I'm happy I was able to prove you wrong on this one Ray - I'm usually a pretty decent teammate. I at least try hard, which is half the battle...the other half is being right...I'm...working on that one. I am sorry I had to mislynch you but...ah...you were one of the few town who appeared to have a head attached straight, so as wolf or town I thought you were better off dead for my side. Sorry, nothing personal!

"Seriously, [Thor's] ability to resist the lynch is impressive. "
That has been agreed upon multiple times. I'm very rarely lynched. Almost every lynch of me is due to either Power Role confirmations/actions or in a lylo situation. I do consider it one of my stronger scum skills - I'm just hard to get rid of. I actually never even felt at risk this game at any stage (maybe just very full of myself but, that was the feel)

@Dead QT - I don't think the fitz/Sky question was as clear as you guys did (after having mod confirm...*cough* ) That said, maybe I should have been more aggressive on it, I just wanted to fell 99% comfortable in my own head since I knew it was the last hurrah of the wolves and if I snagged it then it was fairly likely a win for my faction because we would have been the heroes.

[Thor665]

Thor is a scary fellow.

I'm pretty sure I'm taking that as the compliment it is - thank you.

However, I don't see this situation even occur very often because it could only occur this time as the result of bad mafia play. Had not both of them claimed (and done it before the seer claim which made their claim futile anyway) there would have been no way to tell the last townie from the unclaimed mafioso.

I will agree that the double mafia kill was...not as I'd hoped/planned for the day. DK kind of went with his own riff on the plan (cue smirk and wink at Muffin for his writeup in Dead QT).
I don't think it was *terrible* to double claim, but I certainly agree that we should have got a Seer fullclaim first.

[Shadowmod]

It was terrible - theoretically it cost you any chance to win...

Only that most people here were incapable of proper setup analysis which made them decide you win nontheless

[DonJosh]

If sageamagoo (pretty obvious final wolf unless DJ was playing *very* dumb) is an idiot than she might kill Sky, in which case we win - huzzah! (doubt this)

lol

[Sky]

Damn, I should have made an announcement that the werewolf better not kill me....

Shadow, great job with the setup, it was a very... pretty? I don't the word, but nicely organized game.

[zMuffinMan]

DK... won a game?

[Shadowmod]

Well... Yes...

No... No not really...

I mean... That is probably the wrong perspective on things...

Let's say Thor made enough of an impression that even Deity, though trying hard, could not screw him over...

I'll comment on singular players tomorrow when I can find the time.