Mini 1230 Xylbot is normal i swear.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Final thoughts:

RandomActs is scum
Frog and GNR are totally town
Lowell and subbers are also prob-town

I'll be confirmed town when I flip.

Screw you.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I added the period on the end of "screw you" for emphasis BTW.

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

I hope night phase isn't too long. Sorry Bub.

[CooLDoG]

Wow, if you are a jester you did one helluva job.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I think you just WIFOMed yourself into lynching me, Subdog. Seriously, I play like this as town and scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also in regards to Jackal: confirmed role does not mean confirmed alignment, however, a 2x voter as scum would be super powerfull, so unless the town has got some serious power on its side, he's town as well.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Man, I see what you mean Subbers. I just called half the player list town. Maybe it's just 'cause of my skillz.

[Cojin]

<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || Bub budderskins has been lynched. |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || Bub budderskins was a Townie (town). |||

Night will last until all replacements are found. please submit any night actions.

[Cojin]

Still need 1 more replacement if this one is in.

[Cojin]

Giving warning, game will start friday with replacements or not, any actions that could have been done by those will be autononed.

[Cojin]

<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || lLowell has been killed! ||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || lowelll was a Townie (town) ||

With 12 alive its 7 to lynch.

[Cojin]

bionicchop2 replaces dtmaster

[Hikari Link]

@Mod

: Is Jackal being replaced or did he decide to stay in?

@HowardRoark: The day ended before I had a chance to read and respond to your question. Lowell is dead, Jackal is most likely town, and the other two nulls are still lacking in the post department, I believe.

@Smear & Jackal/Jackal's Replacement: Just because you guys are claimed PRs doesn't mean that you can get by without contributing. If anything, it's more important because we need to be sure that you aren't scum.

My current memory of this game is pretty vague, the only thing I can remember is Frogster being scummy and not trusting CooLDoG. I also believe that Smear claimed Vig. I'm going to reread the game over the course of this weekend, but we need to get our shit together, because I feel our activity level has been far too low.

What I'd like to see from everyone is their current reads with clearly defined reasoning for said reads. Hopefully, this will be the first step towards getting the situation under control. I may revise my reads as I see fit, but I don't think much changed between my reads and the lynch.

We also need to discuss what to do about Smear. I find it unlikely that he targeted Lowell and that scum did as well, meaning that if his claim is true, we've got ourselves a Roleblocer on our hands. The other possibility is that he's lying. My current stance is that we keep him alive for now. I'd suggest saving his lynch for as long as possible in hopes of hitting a Roleblocker, as Mafia are more likely to kill him if we hit the Roleblocker. However, we will probably need to take him out before we reach LyLo if we don't get the Roleblocker, because in LyLo, a Vig is useless and we probably don't want to gamble the game on that.

[BBmolla]

I'll need to reread too.

[CooLDoG]

yeah... this game. Probably worth a re-read... When I have time guys, It will happen.

[bionicchop2]

@mod

- With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

@hikari

- your post makes me very uncomfortable. You are making a lot of assumptions without asking a basic question:

@Smear

- did you target somebody last night and if so, who?
Hikari automatically jumped to a role blocker conclusion.

I haven't read any of the game yet though, so will reserve too much judgement. For now I will put an

FoS Hikari

out there.

[bionicchop2]

EBWOP - Hikari Link

I generally don't read signatures, but just got to the post in the game where you replaced and asked not to be called Hikari. Considered leaving it just to see how you respond to the conflict, but I don't want to misinterpret genuine frustration.

[bionicchop2]

OK, I see where HL might have been jumping off since I am up to the point where vig claimed. There was way too much directing of the vig that wifom has been set in motion. Waiting for smear to post and confirm their action.

[bionicchop2]

Sorry, multiple posts, but stream of consciousness before I forget:

subcom/cooldog - why were you freaking out about jackal's claim? There is no way for a double voter to hide their role. Is it typical play to not claim and not use both votes?

[bionicchop2]

Also, I'm just putting it out there, but I think I'm likely the kill target tonight. I'd normally be content in my towniness that I would likely have Doc protection or at least that there would be the threat of Doc protection and so the mafia wouldn't come for me, but in this situation, I've got a few problems.

This is just absolutely horrible. Why would you have been a target if your predecessor was a scum read for many players? Why would you be a target with 2 town PRs claimed?

[bionicchop2]

OK, so game read is done. This is going to be a tough one because there is a lot of questionable play going on. Here is my current list of reads. Anybody not included is null either due to inactivity or too close to middle of the road to be worth discussing for me ATM.

Brothers / HL

- Getting a scummy vibe of some key odd posts (call for double voter to lynch 2 players, stating they will be nightkilled). Had an early kind of town read on brothers and the brothers / subcom back and forth is a little hard to gauge.

Subcom

- also leaning scummy. May be a case of partners distancing by debating each other, but not following through on lynches. My early notes on subcom had him as one of the most protown, then he went into coast mode and I got very frustrated. They jumped on easy targets and then just started listing 3 people and saying gg. Case against brothers seemed strong, everything else seemed weak.

Frog

- also seeming scummy, but discounting some due to playstyle. I guess my frustration here is that they should have been lynched after they claimed a non PR at deadline. The fact that the wagon changed SO quickly onto bub has the feeling that he is mafia and mafia (subcom) took an opportunity to quicklynch someone else. HL says they are fine with frog getting hammered, then takes first chance to vote someone else.

BBmolla

- seemed to jump on some opportunistic stuff. Actually frog pointed this out which is one of the times I flipped my view on frog.

Obviously all 4 can't be scum, but these are my reads for 'most likely' right now.

town reads:

smear

Only 1 game on site. fake claiming vig? nah. Case against him would need to be solid. Yesterday's case against him was kind of weak.

Guy_named_riggs

gets my newbtown read for the day. I don't know why players (Frog/sub/benoni/BB) jumped on him. Sure he hasn't been the best scumhunter, but nothing he did screams 'scum' and his play matches his completed newbie game. Look how he actually believes the dayvig non-claim from DTM and then rationalizes he must be scum because the person didn't lie so the claim was fake. Is newb-mafia making that post? No. If they believed the dayvig claim, they would do their best to not annoy them by voting them and getting attention.

jackal

/replacement. I would need to see a recent game with a mafia doubevoter or start seeing some hefty town PRs drop. Too powerful for mafia to have 4 votes (and forget it if there were 4 scum).

Those players won't get a free pass, but currently I see no reason to consider them lynch options.

[Hikari Link]

@mod

- With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

@hikari

- your post makes me very uncomfortable. You are making a lot of assumptions without asking a basic question:

@Smear

- did you target somebody last night and if so, who?

That's a question that I felt didn't need asking. I assume a claimed Vig who was unable to get a kill off will explain every detail of his nighttime escapades. What possible scum motivation is there for leaving other options out?

EBWOP - Hikari Link

I generally don't read signatures, but just got to the post in the game where you replaced and asked not to be called Hikari. Considered leaving it just to see how you respond to the conflict, but I don't want to misinterpret genuine frustration.

It would have amounted to me saying something like "please read my signature" or "please don't call me Hikari" and me just being slightly annoyed with you, so thank you for correcting it.

Hikari automatically jumped to a role blocker conclusion.

But you can see why at this point.

Also, I'm just putting it out there, but I think I'm likely the kill target tonight. I'd normally be content in my towniness that I would likely have Doc protection or at least that there would be the threat of Doc protection and so the mafia wouldn't come for me, but in this situation, I've got a few problems.

This is just absolutely horrible. Why would you have been a target if your predecessor was a scum read for many players? Why would you be a target with 2 town PRs claimed?

Three reasons. First, I always assume myself to be a scum target, because I view myself as a legitimate threat to mafia. Second, I expected my public image to turn around with the lynch of Bub, but him flipping town sort of threw a wrench in that plan. And as we saw with the death of Lowell, the concern I had wasn't unfounded. Third, I had become one of the more active and vocal players, which is dangerous in a game filled with inactive players. It becomes much harder to coast like that.

OK, so game read is done. This is going to be a tough one because there is a lot of questionable play going on. Here is my current list of reads. Anybody not included is null either due to inactivity or too close to middle of the road to be worth discussing for me ATM.

If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to hear about the middle of the road guys. The lack of content guys obviously need no explanation, but with the middle of the road guys, at least we'll have a frame of reference should your view shift on them and if there was anything strange you picked up about them, it might be worth noting

Brothers / HL

- Getting a scummy vibe of some key odd posts (call for double voter to lynch 2 players, stating they will be nightkilled). Had an early kind of town read on brothers and the brothers / subcom back and forth is a little hard to gauge.

I'm curious how you can construe wanting to lynch the two scummiest players as "odd". I sort of got the impression that was the point of a Double-Voter who can split is vote. It seems pretty useless to me otherwise. As for stating I wouldbe night killed, that's not completely accurate, but I'm sure you were probably just being brief. I simply stated the possibility that I would be killed, based on the current state of the game.

Frog

- also seeming scummy, but discounting some due to playstyle. I guess my frustration here is that they should have been lynched after they claimed a non PR at deadline. The fact that the wagon changed SO quickly onto bub has the feeling that he is mafia and mafia (subcom) took an opportunity to quicklynch someone else. HL says they are fine with frog getting hammered, then takes first chance to vote someone else.

We weren't at the deadline anymore, so there was no reason to go for the most convenient lynch. I also, seem to recall wanting to lynch both of them, so the point where I was trying to change wagons to save my partner doesn't really hold up. And actually, that wasn't the first chance to vote someone else. Jackal presented the first chance for that by trying to jump in on a quick-hammer, which he has a really bad fucking habit of doing apparently. He could honestly end up being a hindrance to the town with the extra vote, so that means now we have to keep any wagon that he isn't on at L-3.

smear

Only 1 game on site. fake claiming vig? nah. Case against him would need to be solid. Yesterday's case against him was kind of weak.

He's got an Epic Mafia background though, so a fake claim isn't out of the question. And he could just get a grasp of the game very quickly. I don't generally like dismissing someone based on lack of experience.

Guy_named_riggs

gets my newbtown read for the day. I don't know why players (Frog/sub/benoni/BB) jumped on him. Sure he hasn't been the best scumhunter, but nothing he did screams 'scum' and his play matches his completed newbie game. Look how he actually believes the dayvig non-claim from DTM and then rationalizes he must be scum because the person didn't lie so the claim was fake. Is newb-mafia making that post? No. If they believed the dayvig claim, they would do their best to not annoy them by voting them and getting attention.

See above comment regarding experience.

[RandomActs]

Slammed with work and wife's b-day this weekend, but I'll try to post ASAP. I'll need to do a quick re-read as well.

[bionicchop2]

@HL

Not going to quote battle, but will give answers to your key points:

1. I don't see the point in mentioning a player I have no read on. You have a frame of reference if I mention them later and say scummy, you can go back and see I had no read on them earlier. Not sure why you are asking me to add filler. To me it seems like you are maybe asking directly about benoni, or you didn't see that my non-reads are just 2 inactive players and benoni. I guess I can go ahead and indulge that request (maybe next time ask me directly - what do you think about benoni?). I have some issues with their style, but haven't seen much solid content I can wrap any thoughts around. Only instance in my head that sticks out is at one point they were questioned about why they weren't voting a player, then they voted them (think it was on brothers). I made a note that I didn't like that post (#106).

2. I understand the whole end of the day was a mess and I wasn't in the flow of the game. The double lynch thing irked me. Even if I think 2 people are scummy, I would prefer to lynch one, re-evaluate, then lynch the other. Killing both at the same time would require 100% confidence both were scum. The frog thing was just weird. Everybody seemed to think he was scum. He claimed blue. Bub made a comment about thinking he towntold post lynch (even though lynched hadn't gone through) and the speed at which people dropped off frog and jumped on bub seemed really off. Again, I have the advantage of knowing he was town while reading, but I didn't see anything that would have made me consider him a top suspect.

3. Yes Smear has EM experience, as do I. Even on EM, vig is a bad claim. Also, setups are open there and when you fake claim there are direct motives there. You expect a cc and often you claim a role like cop or doc if you are fishing for roles.

4. I don't dismiss inexperience, but I think I am getting a better feel for reading new players and I get a very new town sense from riggs. The biggest flaw I see is they give players town reads just for posting lists that seem like they have content in them.

5. As for your vig assumptions, I already backed off that in my follow up post. I have moved it to the null box.

[Hikari Link]

@HL

Not going to quote battle, but will give answers to your key points:

1. I don't see the point in mentioning a player I have no read on. You have a frame of reference if I mention them later and say scummy, you can go back and see I had no read on them earlier. Not sure why you are asking me to add filler. To me it seems like you are maybe asking directly about benoni, or you didn't see that my non-reads are just 2 inactive players and benoni. I guess I can go ahead and indulge that request (maybe next time ask me directly - what do you think about benoni?). I have some issues with their style, but haven't seen much solid content I can wrap any thoughts around. Only instance in my head that sticks out is at one point they were questioned about why they weren't voting a player, then they voted them (think it was on brothers). I made a note that I didn't like that post (#106).

Actually, no, I didn't see who they were and had no idea benoni was your only null due to not being able to get a fix on him. Since I haven't reread the game yet and t has been so long, I don't really remember what the player list looks like right now. The reason I asked was two-fold. First, it's to see where your head is now. I like to have regular reads from everyone so I can see how their game progresses to see if it seems like a natural progression or if it just contrived. Second, if there is something that seems off to you, even if it is relatively small, it could still be worthwhile to bring it up to the town, in case they have noticed other things about the person too that you may have missed or so they now have information that they may have missed and so they can make a more informed decision.

2. I understand the whole end of the day was a mess and I wasn't in the flow of the game. The double lynch thing irked me. Even if I think 2 people are scummy, I would prefer to lynch one, re-evaluate, then lynch the other. Killing both at the same time would require 100% confidence both were scum. The frog thing was just weird. Everybody seemed to think he was scum. He claimed blue. Bub made a comment about thinking he towntold post lynch (even though lynched hadn't gone through) and the speed at which people dropped off frog and jumped on bub seemed really off. Again, I have the advantage of knowing he was town while reading, but I didn't see anything that would have made me consider him a top suspect.

I don't need 100% confidence two people are scum to lynch them both. The way I see it, its a way to increase the likelihood that they are scum. If they are a heavy scum read and I think that they are likely to get lynched later in the game anyway, I think it's better to kill them both at the same time, because even if they are both mislynches, at least we don't also have an extra day wasted and a night kill in the middle, so in a way, it balances out.

3. Yes Smear has EM experience, as do I. Even on EM, vig is a bad claim. Also, setups are open there and when you fake claim there are direct motives there. You expect a cc and often you claim a role like cop or doc if you are fishing for roles.

But there are direct motives here too, in this case not being lynched. I'd honestly call Vig a pretty solid claim for scum. More than Cop, definitely. For one thing, I think that if the set up isn't open, a Vig is more unlikely to be counter-claimed. Also, they can proceed to use the Roleblocked excuse from that point forward or the excuse that they hit the same person as Mafia. On top of that, they can use the excuse that Mafia aren't Nigh killing them later in the game even after the Roleblocker dies (if one even exists) by claiming that Mafia might want them to mess up and take out town. And the worst part is, it could all be true. An early Vig claim from town is extremely bad for the player, but extremely useful for a scum player.

4. I don't dismiss inexperience, but I think I am getting a better feel for reading new players and I get a very new town sense from riggs. The biggest flaw I see is they give players town reads just for posting lists that seem like they have content in them.

But scum can imitate that type of feel. All it takes is that right type of player. I've said from the moment that I started playing Mafia that my strategy as scum would be to play the game exactly as if I were town so that no contradictions or strange motivations appear in my play. I think that if anything, newer players can be more dangerous as scum, because if they are playing with this sentiment, it's harder to catch and there is no meta to look back on for them to see that.

5. As for your vig assumptions, I already backed off that in my follow up post. I have moved it to the null box.

I realize that you did, but that does not mean that everyone else saw the reasoning there.