Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Everyone, who is last in your Will and why?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Alicewondering is last on my list because she's one of the players in this game I have no prior knowledge of and she was already last on the player list so I didn't move her anywhere.

Will you answer your own question?

Sure, Pizzaguy because I've played with him twice and he showed significant regression in his play from "reasonably competent as a noob" to "quick, burn it with fire".

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't intend to reveal my will, and nor should other people. I don't see any benefit at all, and if scum know you are giving a vote to them, they can kill you for it. That's not something to be paranoid about - my recollection from previous last wills is that the scumkill wasn't really targeted by that - but if we go around saying who's top that's just asking for it

And just to address this, it's why I asked for last person on people's list which seems like pretty useless information and not the first which I don't plan to talk about either.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, if you think asking for the last person in a person's will is "useless information," then why did you ask the question in the first place?

oooh good point

Not really, the information itself is pretty useless but the possible thought process that brought about it could be useful and it'd certainly be more useful as a kickstarter than a nonsensical RVS vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Gotta check who is last on my will but I have to ask. DDD, why ask?

Why not ask? (aka I already answered this).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It was a good point (not a strong point or a scum point) you had but it says more about you than DDD.

I'd love to know why it was a good point other than pandering to LastSurvivor because even you recognize the point was easily addressed.

VOTE: Nachomamma8
Malee is pathetically shrimping away from this, but I like the point. Nacho's an above-average player and when he's on cruise control and not reading things deeply that suggests to me he's not really looking for scum that deeply.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It was a good point (not a strong point or a scum point) you had but it says more about you than DDD.

I'd love to know why it was a good point other than pandering to LastSurvivor because even you recognize the point was easily addressed.

VOTE: Nachomamma8
Malee is pathetically shrimping away from this, but I like the point. Nacho's an above-average player and when he's on cruise control and not reading things deeply that suggests to me he's not really looking for scum that deeply.

Success in early scumhunting doesn't really require reading every post; most RVS posting doesn't have much substance behind it. The key is to force people to say what they don't want to say, and that's what I'm working on.

Maybe "early game" is different, but it just reminds me of Sotty in the Winvitational and her being on cruise control with the Triple D is scum for the fake post restriction; she's better than that and you're better than this.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Maybe "early game" is different, but it just reminds me of Sotty in the Winvitational and her being on cruise control with the Triple D is scum for the fake post restriction; she's better than that and you're better than this.

I was also on cruise control during the Winvitational, and I think the difference between me there and me here is pretty clear. My scum cruise control is not missing things in thread; it's more not being in the thread in the first place.

I can't say I'm seeing a big difference.

DDD posted kinda regularly until Friday. Maybe he's just been busy this weekend (was St Patty's day yesterday after all). His posts haven't really been blah though.

I was out of town for the NCAA tournament this last weekend, so yeah.

~~

Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.

Dislike Rhinox becuase of the very soft way he's been playing. There's absolutely no conviction in the arguments he was making; his "good point" from LS wasn't actually a good point and it was just the first in a set of panders towards LS that he mde.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.

Dislike Rhinox becuase of the very soft way he's been playing. There's absolutely no conviction in the arguments he was making; his "good point" from LS wasn't actually a good point and it was just the first i a set of panders towards LS that he mde.

making a good point or agreeing with a mediocre point doesn't indicate much in terms of alighnment; though I do agree that Rhinox has been playing a reactive game instead of proactive. Still haven't seen anything from Malee that makes me want to change my vote.

I disagree, I think that from some players the strength of their arguments is a useful argument and certainly how active or reactive a player is is useful information in the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Nacho makes an excellent point on funky. Also Kortul. Consider me persuaded, though I'll keep my vote on Malee for now. I'd probably be willing to switch to funky whenever.

Anyone else find this off? So you're persuaded by two people that a third is scum but you're content to let your vote ride on a fourth because why, because it's easier?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: you said you didn't like the case on Malee because her point against Nacho was sound. But that's not really the case against Malee, at least not for me. When she unvoted Nacho, she:
- Implied she had found him scummy, which hadn't previously been stated.
- Said it was now null because he hadn't voted, which made little or no difference to the point against him (skimming).
It's pretty clear to me that Malee was panicking and backing off without really thinking about what she'd actually said/thought about Nacho. This kind of contradiction seems more likely from scum than town for me.

To a large degree I'm working on a basic calculus of "I think Nacho is cruising and thus likely scum, noob isn't going to immediately bus and they certainly aren't going to panic and remove their vote like that; thus nachoscum = Maleetown". I think your second point is reasonable (I think the first is something that makes sense to assume) but how much of that can be explained by a player out of their depth?

I think DDD has played with Nacho. Dunno if he has a "deep past" with him.

I've played somewhere in the vicinity of three to six games (I think) with him but I don't have any specific meta of him other than "fairly conventional above-average player"

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Anyone else find this off? So you're persuaded by two people that a third is scum but you're content to let your vote ride on a fourth because why, because it's easier?

Can't a girl have more than one scumread?

Sure but the post in question reads as if you had a new number one but were letting your vote sit on number two for convenience rather than conviction.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD

, you are sitting on Nacho for some time already, does it mean that you still see him on cruise control?

Don't see anything to indicate otherwise.

DDD, what do you think of Nacho's play style change? Do you think the change was scum motivated?

When I did the same thing it was simply to bring my scum and town play closer into line because I thought I'd become to easy to read by most of my peer group; so it was motivated to protect my scum play but in a broader sense not in a specific game sense. Now that assumes he's actually changing his playstyle and not simply using that as an excuse for his cruise control act.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, you have left your vote on nacho for being on cruise control yet you haven't really pressured any of his recent posts or actions...?

Hey guys Nacho is still totally doing nothing useful; maybe he'd start doing something useful or at very least we'd lynch scum if ya'll voted him as well!!!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: Nachomama

die scum die

Double plus good.

This looks like textbook scum going with the flow to blend in with the most townies.

What flow? It's not like he jumped one of the "big" three person bandwagons, he voted for Nacho which couldn't even be described as a wagon until his vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

He said himself that he was voting for nacho because it was a more viable lynch with more support.

And that shouldn't be a consideration at all? It's not as if he tossed aside everything he said perviously to take an easy lynch; he simply moved within his own suspicions to a wagon that might actually flourish.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Rhinox is reaching way too hard to justify his stance on hiplop.

Happy to oblige, but first: My predecessor has certainly left me in a big pile of poop, but I have to say that had I been reading this as a neutral I would have found it all to be very a very forced case (although I didn't read it a a neutral so I could well be biased).

Fishy, Nacho; Amished-tell?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, amishtell is when.someone comments on their predecessor without being asked to, right?
That could be the case though alice did ask the replacement to post their reads; so I could see theo simply responding to that request.

would like to see more interactions from theomoaner before jumping to any conclusion.

It's more specifically the negative reference to the slot than just commenting on it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Fishy, Nacho; Amished-tell?

Why are you asking Nacho this?

Because they're members of my and Amished's peerage group and so they're the ones who are most likely to have first hand experience with what I'm talking about. I also want to make them take a stance on something since they're both playing far too passively for my taste (though in my experience that's not uncommon for town-FtF and is common for scum-Nacho).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh, and @DDD: what is an Amished-tell? And fair enough re: my play in this game.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

How have you never run into this, it's one of the more reliable scumtells I've seen, not perfect but pretty damn reliable.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: my insticnt is that that tell doesn't work. As scum or as town, I stress massively about my replacee. I replace in a lot, and I'm really worried about the situation of replacing in to a town slot where the previous occupant is really scummy. I never even slightly think "he was town, so all his actions must be reasonable" - town do unreasonable and scummy things. Possibly I'm not the typical replacement, but I'm struggling with the notion that replacements find their slots beyond criticism.

Sadly I don’t care about whether you think it’s accurate or not, because I trust it’s general accuracy; I was hoping for insight in regards to its application. Unfortunately, you haven’t seen it before and what a surprise Nacho has gone missing again. Too bad nobody other than me cares, so...

VOTE: theomoaner

Looks like the Amished-tell, quacks like the Amished-tell, probably is the Amished-tell.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: I know the tell, and quite frankly I think the accuracy from at I've seen is too shitty for it to be used (IIRC I've even had it used against me as town, though don't quote me on that).

Voided is town; not that bright but town given he clearly cares more about being right than my vote helping him out.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hi everyone

I don't have time to read through right now, but will soon.

And don't hammer me.

Vote: VoidedMafia

Bad vote is bad; yes it is.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Actually

Debonair, how do you think your play here compares to your usual town play?

It feels normal to me but I'm obviously biased by insider information.

Debonair, did your vote on theo have anything to do with Voided?

Nope.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Debonair: How is it bad exactly?

It's a vote on a town player; see post 376 for the reason.

Lastsurvivor's 422 is a way bad post; he sells out for a lesser lynch than his prefered target and he gets that kind of snotty tone that I get when I'm scum and have people suspecting me for what I think are wrong reasons.

Because this one might actually save me from being lynched.

Well at least you're honest about your crass survivalism; too bad for you that you're wrong about your assesment of the game state.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sorry about being away this weekend, catching up now.

Ugh. It looks like I won't be able to get around this. I'm just a VT. I just couldn't see myself not getting lynched. What I ask is, don't just use this as an excuse to lynch me and don't write me off as scum because of my initial claim. I hope you can think about my actions and see that they come from town.

It’s certainly not the reason people should lynch you, but this “I’m totally a power role” to “lol, not really” should add to the already established points. I’m freaking amazed to see the day still going on.

What do you think of Debonair?

If he’s got a case on me he’s not pushing it; instead he keeps throwing my name out hoping someone else will just jump on board or do the work for him. Oh and look it’s worked on FtF, genius.

And now I find it funny that the player I’ve never played with and the player I’ve played with once as scum have a better handle on my meta than Fishy.

DDD, on the other hand, is shaping up to be somewhat like another funkybike. Though, there's a stronger connection between Nacho and him due to how he was hounding the former, as well as with Theo for the amished application, so his lynch would be more informative and why I'm more amicable to lynching him at deadline if necessary.

Kortul had the opposite opinion and either way it’s bullshit; has more connections or less connections is not a reason to lynch someone or spare them. If you think I’m scum, you’re wrong, but own it and don’t try to pass it off like the information you get from one lynch is really that much superior to another.

I'm still vastly prefer Macrophage to LS but I don't have a town read on LS so I don't object to his lynch especially when mine is the second alternative.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Well, that may be you, but if someone has better connection tells than someone else,

everything else being the same one way or another

, then I'd lynch the person with the better connections. While I don't really like DCL's push on LS (a few too many points are either rehashed or refuted for me to accept the entire thing, most notably the part that Nacho already tried to us; this is partly why I'm not gung-ho for an LS lynch), his play is vastly better than funky's and has more or less saved the slot from the lynch.

I guess that's true enough but in my book there should almost always be something to seperate people, especially the people you find scummiest. And when "information" and "connections" are bandied about it feels like fabrication of arguments to support a lynch there's no reason for or to bolster a weak case.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

From scum to town:

Macrophage: Amished tell ho, from theomoaner. Die scum die? Yeah that.

Rhinox: Still dislike his “ooh good question” towards LS after I asked who was last on everyone’s will and he hedges hard in his answers after that. How did I miss that he accused me of being a lyncher in #257? Besides being wrong, it’s just a bizarre move and not a “only town would do something that strange” move. And I still don’t like Rhinox’ accusations of hiplop around #266 especially the way he overstates how hiplop was sure of things when hiplop doesn’t even come close to that level of conviction in his words.

Alice: Post #95 is pretty damn bad in my opinion; she nitpicks about RVS votes and claims Malee was fabricating a case on Nacho based around Nacho’s nonexistent vote but that almost never happens because it’s so easily refuted; odds are good that Malee was legitimately confused.

Sleepless Assassain: Wasn’t paying attention in #36 to realize I had just answered the very question he had asked. And uses, “lol, reaction fishing” as an explanation in #188 which is something I hate.

Hiplop: His vote on SA in 105 doesn’t seem to square with the fact that SA has presented about his situation and why SA doesn’t make bigger posts. Slips from my radar during the back half of the day.

DCLXVI: Funkybike was sub-useless; DCLXVI is clearly not but #518 is very clearly IIoA. His bold prediction in #533 is pretty funny now.

Kortul: Don’t care for the discussion of how much information one can get from a lynch relative to other as a deciding factor in regards to who to lynch though.

Fishy: It’s kind of funny that he says, “Yeah, I realise that me not having a meta on you is pretty unimpressive. I tend to assume that people I've played with a lot are a bit better than they are.” Because if I didn’t know Fishy’s meta I’d feel the same way about him; just way under impressed from him but considering I saw the same thing from him in the Scummies Winvitatonal (I think) he’s very null.

Anxiety: Don’t really care for his “discussion topic” in #222; very generic and seems like its more say something than say something useful.

Voided: Thank goodness he replaced Vincent, I had absolutely no points about Vincent written down because he was a complete nonentity. And I stand by my town read in #376, seemed much more interested in truth than the fact that my vote helped him. Still don’t care for the discussion of how much information one can get from a lynch relative to other as a deciding factor in regards to who to lynch though.

~~

Top two are a cut above in my book: middle is a complete morass and mostly and sadly interchangeable at this moment, Voided is my only good town read.

VOTE: Macrophage

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Looks like VCA (junk) combined with facile appeals to authority in dead townies (logical fallacy). Way to crystalize your spot near the top of my list, Rhinox.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Looks like VCA (junk) combined with facile appeals to authority in dead townies (logical fallacy). Way to crystalize your spot near the top of my list, Rhinox.

I don't really care where I am on your list or how many buzzwords you can fit into a single sentence

Hey, I don't care about those things either; I care about how you apparently don't have your own opinion just using the opinions of others for cover.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I have to say some of the “points” against me are pretty absurd. I don’t have enough town reads? I didn’t talk about the middle of the day enough? Sorry, I put down what stuck out to me one way or another when I re-read the game. I’m not going to arbitrarily make up town reads or talk about things I don’t think are important.

~

DDD, your Macro case is based on a tell. Can you explain the

logic

behind it, and why you believe it is reliable. Can you link to some successful examples of Amished-tell? If you expect us to consider the case, we have to understand why it works.

It’s a straight damage control move; attempting to make a player’s slot seem more town by excusing their prior play due to incompetence. Town’s first instincts upon replacing in are “who are scum?”; scum’s first instinct is “protect myself”.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It’s a straight damage control move; attempting to make a player’s slot seem more town by excusing their prior play due to incompetence. Town’s first instincts upon replacing in are “who are scum?”; scum’s first instinct is “protect myself”.

I feel like anyone with a wagon on them is going to want to protect themself.

Sure, but we’re talking about first instincts; I get that town PM as a replacement and my first instinct is always, “who is scum”? I don’t even bother reading the person I’m replacing beyond what I absorb from reading the entire thread because I know they’re town and nothing I can do can change what they’ve already done on my behalf.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Points labeled to match to Rhinox’s generally

1) Rhinox completely ignores meta context in this point; I was clearly wrong but absolutely no one disagreed with my assessment of Nacho being on cruise control and in my experience (Scummies Winvitational) that was a significant red flag. Conversely, you’ll note several people in this game have noted how my play is not inconsistent with my town play. It’s easy to cry “hypocrisy” but it doesn’t actually make a good argument.

2) Yes, I will sometimes ignore things if I don’t think they’re worth my time; I had no interest in addressing points about Nacho because all I could do was restate the facts as I saw them because when nothing changes there’s nothing new to present. As regards to the other question, basically I hate every post of yours from the first pander to LS (#29) to where you restate it again (#51) insisting his question was a good point when it so very clearly wasn’t. And I brought up the lyncher thing because it was so very clearly bizarre upon re-read; it’s like suggesting someone is a jester, completely out of left field.

3) And he just restates the same nonsense that basically amounts to me not having good enough town reads being a scumtell and using the words of dead townies to bolster his case which are both junk.

Look if you want me lynched don’t push it off on the opinion of dead players; own it, and if I do get lynched or killed andwhen I flip green then you can’t hide from this nonsense.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1) I did not ignore that you had meta and to paint it as such is missing the point. I thought you were being useless while you were lazily parking your vote on nacho, and I think your uselessness was scummy. And I didn't even feel nacho was being useless anyways. I don't have a good meta on you, but I read through both examples posted by someone earlier on and I don't think your play early on in D1 matches either of the games linked. So I threw out the meta and made up my own mind. Why is it that I'm supposed to accept the meta reasoning of others (who I don't know the alignment of by the way) using it to supposedly clear you or nullify the points against you, but using the beliefs of dead players I know are town is junk?

And you miss my point that context is critical; if you did legitimately consider context and disagreed then fair enough but I’m not in your head to know that unless you make that clear (and yes I recall you making the point about my meta clear).

No I really can't be that snarky. If someone's ignoring my questions or not acknowledging that I just said something, I'm going to assume its because you don't want attention drawn to it and you're trying to sweep it under a rug. Especially when comments are cherry picked out later on from a post that was ignored, like that lyncher comment. So I'm gonna play devil's advocate - suggesting someone is a lyncher or jester is out of left field. OK. Left field is scummy? Why is this something scum would do?

(and what was odd was that you were so concerned with nacho and only nacho at the time, it was as if you had him as a lyncher target. It seemed unnatural for you to be so focused on nacho. That is what I was trynig to say with the lyncher comment. I was hoping the comment would actually get a response out of you then, not the next day to be used as case filler).

And it’s the way I play; in fact the last time I think I was accused of being “evasive” was by Percy-scum in Mini 845. Besides the fact that my play would’ve been stupidly obvious for a lyncher, the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

~~

Everything else is just a rehash. For example, the whining about not having town reads if I do something scummy like using my absence of them to swing my vote willy-nilly call me on it then but the argument that I did something that could be used for nefarious purpose but is instead legitimately simply how I read the game is cart before the horse thinking. I really shouldn’t have to hold your hand why explaining why using the reads of dead town players is a bad idea; Nacho thought LS was scum, I guess we should resurrect LS and lynch him again and maybe he’ll flip town this time. Intention does not increase accuracy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

This doesn't make any sense.

I think it does.

Intention does not increase accuracy.

But this is true for the living as well as the dead, is it not?

You didn't voice a problem with me or others saying we're going to sheep nacho when he's alive and we don't know his alignment, but all of a sudden when he's dead and confirmed town we're supposed to ignore his opinion because he could be wrong?

Whats the difference between sheeping living nacho, and taking into consideration the opinion of dead nacho (and LS)?

If you can show me where I said it was acceptable to sheep another player you might have an argument here; but I never said that, so you don't.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Whats the difference between looking for anti-town and looking for scum then? Are you saying you knew you were anti town?

A lyncher was the anti-town entity in question, obviously.

So... you only speak out against something you don't find acceptable when it hurts your agenda?

No, but I didn't see anyone blatently sheeping Nacho or anyone else at that point; there's a difference between sheeping, where you think or know someone is town and just follow them regardless of what they say and being persuaded by someone's arguments.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum- using my predecessors' stuff aginst me while also pulling out stuff about me that's magically scummy to keep me as a target.

Yep, this is pretty clearly a five scum game and you've nailed our team; kudos.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Void, can you tell me why Macro's claim makes sense for scum? Why would scum claim a power role and then instead of just claiming an actual power role or sticking to "town doesn't need to know as much as scum does", he just goes "aw shucks, I'm just a plain old townie"? The only intent I can personally think of is fear of outing an actual power role. Claiming vanilla is basically resigning to a lynch. Scum have more reason to keep fighting at that point than town.

But that just boils back to the age old question, why would scum ever claim vanilla at L-1? And yet, they do. Because clearly if they always claim a PR then suddenly vanilla claims are the safe claims to make and it constantly bounces back and forth with each individual player trying to guess where the site meta currently is.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Sure I’ll accept that; but what does that make you guy who claimed non-VT and then revised it to a VT claim?

DDD, but if that's the case, why did he claim to be a power role in the first place? If vanilla is such a safe claim for scum to make, why did he feel the need to claim to be a power role first? The fact that he didnt do so defeats your point because macro didn't see vanilla as such a safe claim to make, yet when pressured more, he resigned and claimed vanilla. As scum, I'm sure he'd continue to make something up. His vanilla claim had more of an "ok, you got me. Here's the truth" tone to it.

I’m not saying he’s scum because of his claim; I’m just refuting the idea that he has to be town because of his claim. Try this on for size: he’s scum and he makes the non-VT claim to see if he can shake his wagon without opening himself up for a counterclaim; when that doesn’t work instead of making a claim that doesn’t work or gets counterclaimed he revises it to a VT claim knowing that people like you will probably defend his unorthodox play and he still might not get lynched because a VT claim is not the instant death sentence some suggest it is.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, then why wouldn't he claim a less common power role or something? Oh and by the way, unorthodox play also has a tendency to find the ropes. The more you elaborate on why he is scum, the stronger a town case I see.

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Sure I’ll accept that; but what does that make you guy who claimed non-VT and then revised it to a VT claim?

I’ve already trapped him with his own words; he knows what a vanilla townie SHOULD have done and yet he has no explanation for what he did other than, "uh, but I'm vanilla". Busted.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDP drops down to the slightly scummy range. It's nice that he's using more than the amished tell against you, but the fact that that was pretty much his only point of attack against you for quite a while doesn't sit right.

I've lynched people before on just that tell and it's worked out well for me before. But I really like my latest argument as well; by his own words he says a vanilla townie should do X; he did Y which screams to me that he's not a vanilla townie.

I don't know what to think of this post. What do others think?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, have you ever seen a VT fakeclaim or a mafia discussion thread where it was discussed? I'm not necessarily saying it's the right thing to do, but the fact that it's out there means it's an option that it happened here. You seem to accept no answer except "welp, he fakeclaimed. MUST be scum." Like, I don't even think you are trying to determine what happened. You are either scum who already knows or town who refuses to remove the blinders.

I've seen a VT (counter-)claim Mason in an Open game (Friends and Enemies 3 goons, 3 masons, rest vanilla); I've also seen a VT claim doctor in a newbie game. Like I said it's certainly a possibility, I haven't ruled out the possibility of him being a VT completely, but I think the internal logic that Macrophage revealed shows why I think it was a fake claim.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So we’re back to this foolishness, eh?

Yesterday, DDD voted Nacho, for one not very big reason, and just sat on it for most of the day.

I mean it might not matter to you, but when I’m playing with player’s I have experience with I value my personal meta with them extremely highly. It’s the same reason I’ve given you as much of a pass today as I have when I’d usually be up your ass for your disengagement from the game.

As for what that is, for a start he actually did a reread of everyone, in 648. It makes decent, but rather isolated, points about people. And he really stops pushing after that - you never see DDD chase up any of the points he makes. It feels like he's made an effort to say something about everyone, but more for show than anything else - after that's out of the way, he's content to sit back and relax on the Macro wagon, as well as defending himself against Rhinox.

Why should I be all over the place when the top wagon is on my top scumread? I just don’t get how this meshes with your day one criticism; on D1 I’m not pushing things hard enough and then on D2 when I’ve decided to entrench and push I get accused of not looking around enough. I can agree with the theory behind your D1 argument even if I think it ignores some context, but your D2 criticism is nonsense that flies in the face of that.

~~

If I played mafia by the Wiki, I’d accuse Macrophage of OMGUS and say you should lynch him for that but I don’t; so instead ya’ll should lynch him for not being a vanilla townie and for violating the Amished tell.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Fishy: But the point kinda gets turned around, as that then implies that he's not a VT because he didn't claim VT right off the bat. And since I find him being a power role to personally be highly unlikely, what does that make him then?

I don't really know what you mean by this. Put simply - why is it that you think Macro can't be a VT who decided to claim non-VT to save his skin? As far as I can see, that's neither stupid nor antitown (unlike claiming any specific non-VT, which is both), and nothing he's said implies it's something he wouldn't do.

I guess he did use the phrase "generally" in his point but I think the point still stands because it reveals that he made a conscience decision to not behave like a VT and when it's been brought up about why he'd do such a thing he's been all mumbles about being town and using circular logic.

Hip is probably right. This day has run it's course.

unvote, vote DDD

Paraphrase: Somebody else is bored; good excuse to get a town player lynched instead of my scum partner Macro; got it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And he really wasn't responding to "why did you do that?". He was responding to "this is a scum move", which makes quite a difference - it's not evasion, it's just saying what (from Macrotown's POV) is true - he made the move as town, and there's a town explanation.

Unless I'm much mistaken, Macro said why he made that claim ages ago; to save his skin.

But, crass survivalism isn’t a town move even if it’s admitted up front; it’s a move both town and scum make and usually if you do assign it to one side of the equation or the other you assign it to the scum side of things.

@DDD: what is your read on SA generally?

I had nothing positive to say before and his vote is MASSIVELY bad news; go look back at his last dozen posts; there’s absolutely nothing about me being scum while be fiddles away at 4nxiety being scum and he even calls Malee scummy and solely depends on Macro’s claim switch as the sole reason to oppose his lynch. In #791 he says, “I want my voice to reflect my opinions”. If that’s the case then it’s pretty clear in his opinion I’m not scum because he hasn’t said a word about me, but now that you’ve put me in the danger zone and he’s got an excuse from hiplop he lays down a L-1 vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sorry about being away for most the weekend; no matter what Macro wants I'm not claiming without being at L-1 with someone expressing intent to hammer. I still intend to see him swinging from a noose and I'm not going to hand his scumpartners bonus information just because he asked.

@kortul, it depends on the context of those situations; was DCL asked a question that would make him refer to funkybike's play and had I already explained the Amished tell for those not in the know?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh and Magua the long and short of it is that Rhinox and Fishy both have double votes and so despite the fact that no more than four people really think I'm scum I'm apparently under the gun. Rhinox tossed down his vote and has completely gone missing from the game for the latter half of the day; Fishy by his own words only finds me "moderately scummy" but votes me because he's too lazy to find someone who is actually scummy and Macro is a town read of his; SA is basically identical to Fishy except at least he made a token push on 4nxiety before lazily slopping a vote onto me. Macro's vote on me was shameless self-preservation and I think DCL just got bored and wanted to force a claim. All in all it's a terrible wagon populated by at least two scum and a few negligent town players.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Rereading my play, the above looks like a pretty big exaggeration to me. But I suppose the core's not totally wrong - I agree I've changed my mind a fair amount this game, and that I've not had any really firm scumreads I've been happy to push for a long period of time. Why are either of those things scumtells?

Because they're not how you play as town (see: Last Will III). You're not a noncommittal town player, and here you are. See also: Trader Mafia, where scum-you throws your vote around willy-nilly and in general tried to spread mud everywhere. That's what I'm seeing here.

I'd link you to the Scummies Winvitational if it hadn't been swallowed up by the site crash as why I disagree with your assesment of Ftf.

~~

@DDD - as to the context, this were first impressions after the initial reread, without questions asked, and amished-tell was already explained before, so most likely he was aware that it exists. What would be your answer now?

Such unprompted behavior would constitute a violation of the Amished-tell, yes. I’m not sure how applicable it is after it’s been mentioned though; one would presume that DCL read the game and saw the tell and thus knowing it’s a bothersome point did it anyways. However, I have actually caught scum in the same game committing the tell even after it’s been explained. I think it comes down to whether you think DCL actually read the game or not; if he did read the game then I’d doubt its efficacy; if you think for some reason he skimmed the game and missed that section it could still be considered relevant. I tend towards the latter and given Macro being all kinds of in favor of a DCL lynch; I’m all kinds of opposed to it.

~~

Preview-Edited: Holding off a claim at 4nxiety’s request.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'd link you to the Scummies Winvitational if it hadn't been swallowed up by the site crash as why I disagree with your assesment of Ftf.

That's not exactly helpful to me, you understand. Nor do I see why you feel the need to defend Fishy at this point.

Because I think he's more useless than scum; I'd rather if you're going to have a pointless wank fest it at least be focused on Rhinox or SA; someone I think is much more likely to be scum.

DDD is similar, but with less posts. Has more reads, but a lot of his posts just ring false to me, particularly in regards to some newer player like Macrophage doing something newby-stupid and DDD going for cheap shots rather than understanding. A lot of unhelpful sarcasm. Yet I know from sad experience that DDD does that shit as town, so I'm more just aggravated than wanting to hammer him at this point.

Macrophage has admitted to being an alt with approx. 15 games under his main’s belt. If your town read if based on a Macro-noob read you need to recalibrate because that simply isn’t the case.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Macrophage has admitted to being an alt with approx. 15 games under his main’s belt. If your town read if based on a Macro-noob read you need to recalibrate because that simply isn’t the case.

Link plz.

Link.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

My role name is that of a Secretary; I have a one-shot ability. I'm leaning towards it being better for me to not claim what my ability actually does though I'm sure some people will "hurr durr" at me until I'm forced to claim it anyways.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1) Is your role one that would make no sense at all for scum in a one-scumteam game? To give you an idea, I'd count miller, cop, vig, mason among standard roles here, and no others that I can think of.
2) Will you use it tonight (or by halfway through tomorrow's day phase if it's a day action)?
3) Is it confirmable, in that when you've done it we'll know?

1) No, it could be an ability that could be useful to scum as well as town; though I think it would be a bit broken to give to scum.
2) I can use it at any time and I'd want to get it off before I die so that depends on how likely I think scum are to kill me for having a currently undefined power role.
3) It could be confirmable under certain circumstances; in other circumstances it would not be.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Is there any restriction on when you can use your power (as in, "odd days/nights" or "not day one")?

No.

Finally: if you use your role in a confirmable circumstance, and don't say anything about it, would we know something had happened? Would we know you had something to do with it?

Mmm, sadly the confirmable and not saying anything about it are mutually exclusive as far as I can think.

If I claim explicitly and X then confirmed.
If I claim explicitly and Y then unconfirmed.
If I do not claim explicitly then it depends on a couple things whether or not it'd even be obvious I acted.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DCL was the one who made the me-LS link, and so is probtown for me.

<snip>

VOTE: DCL

??

You snipped out the portions that gave it needed context.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

danny, what is your current read of fishy?

Same as it has been most of the day; likelier town than not. I'm still high on a big three of Macro/Rhinox/SA though one of those last two might be wrong for someone who is/was voting for Macro.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

his play reminds me of junpei from magician mafia, i've been kinda waiting for you to call him out on all the waffling...

I didn't read Magician Mafia looking for scum so I didn't really remember that at all. More importantly, why would I use junpei meta for Ftf when I have Ftf meta I can use?

hmm this may be a little premature but I don't want to risk it with deadline, and potentially my lynch, approaching... I am a mason.

A mason in the sense that you have a QT together or a mason in the sense that you're willing to say your partner is confirmed town?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I really don't like choosing between Macro and DCL. I'm going to renig on what I've been saying though. I like the company on the DCL wagon a lot more than the company on the macro wagon.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey Magua, I see you're online. Deadline is really soon - you should come and vote DCL or Macro. Preferably

DCL

Macro, since Macro's

town

scum.

*Pointy gunny thingy*

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I need to get this out there before any real speculation starts. Magua was at the bottom of Macrophage's list, not the top. Fishy had the right idea when he realized my ability let me do "last will shenanigans" however he wasn’t right in that I couldn’t re-write anyone’s will at will; instead my ability made it so that I could have someone’s will processed backwards (hence why I opened the game asking about the bottom of everyone’s lists).

I was expecting to find myself or DCL on the bottom of Macrophage’s list and hand a vote to a town aligned player; instead Magua was apparently at the bottom who I consider more of a question mark.

~~

As I made clear yesterday I think Rhinox and/or SA is the right call for Macro’s scumpartner(s). I need to do a quick game review to see who is the more likely of them but I expect my vote to end up on one of them in short order.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Rhinox: Still stand behind my day one summary; I will note upon further review that he did get very wall-posty after the LS “good point” debacle which is probably a minor town tell for a player who doesn’t have that as their default setting.

Obviously I disagree with his vote and dust-up with me at the beginning of D2 but again at least he shows some effort and conviction there. However, after that he goes missing from the game big time; we’re talking ten days or so of nothing with just three or four “prod-dodge” type posts. We then get into the endgame of D2 and after my wagon falls apart he’s everywhere but in favor of a Macro lynch; he tries to jumpstart an 4nxiety lynch and then after his mason claim falls back to DCL even though he’d just said he preferred a Macro wagon to a DCL wagon. This is good and bad; I’ve long held that foolish consistency is a scumtell and not something town really worries about so the fact that he was willing to backtrack so quickly is actually a towntell but he does do about everything he possibly can to avoid voting for Macro until the only choices are No lynch or Macro-lynch. He did come through on the Macro-lynch though and I’m not sure he would’ve taken any personal blame if we had no-lynched so again that’s another minor point in his favor. It’s not good play from him, but there are some lurking positives.

Sleepless Assassain: Still agree with my minor D1 notes about him. He puts his vote down on town-4nxiety and doesn’t really push that hard on it. He also seems very invested in defending Macro’s about face claim as a towntell which was about Macro’s only saving grace with a good many people. I also find this sequence pretty brutal…

I want my voice to reflect my opinions.

And then he votes he a half-dozen posts later without having mentioned me being scummy or scum in the meanwhile; now he certainly disagreed with me in that time but he does nothing to jump from “wrong” to scum. And while I don’t blame him for voting DCL given that there was support for his wagon even if there weren’t votes actively there at the time he’s again voting likely town instead of scum.

~~

I can see some redeeming features in Rhinox’s play now that I look at it a bit; I don’t see those in the play of Sleepless Assassin.

VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Do you get any information about the will (who was on top, specifically)?

Unfortunately, no.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Didn't Rhinox explain why he was absent most of D2? I will agree that the last second vote is slightly suspicious, but not enough to overly change my mind.

Uh, no. Today, he said he was going to re-read this last weekend and said he lost internet and was unable to do so. However, there's no explanation of his absence during day two other than generic things like "lost my motivation".

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, in that quote, "voice" should have beenn "vote". Someone asked why my vote was on 4n and that was my response.

No, I understand that voice meant vote or at least I understood the sentiment. The problem is that for someone who claimed they wanted their vote to match their opinion; yours didn't. There was really no opinion of me being scum and then suddenly you tossed down a massive vote on me without having the opinion to match as far as I could tell; that's my problem.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

That's because I went from "we have a while, a lot can happen" mode to "deadline is coming, guess I gotta settle" mode.

I don't like settling; I especially don't like settling on me.

@DDD:

When did you activate/choose to use your ability? Do you pick a specific person or what?

I mean obviously I've been thinking about it for a long time; I really settled on wanting to use it on Macro at the start of D2 given the way D1 had gone down and because my name kept popping up in his mouth as scum. So I thought worst case was that I ended up with his vote but more likely I was screwing with what scum wanted to do with their will. I pulled the trigger late on D2; right before my pointy gun thingy post when it was pretty clear that Macro was the only option for a lynch and that even if it had gone to no lynch he probably would've been the play today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, settling (on DDD) gets a (mis)lynch through.

Cleaned that up for you.

~~

Pretty sure I'm going to be mighty tired of hearing, "scum wouldn't defend their partner so blatently" from the "scum wouldn't claim non-VT and then switch to a VT claim" crew before this day is over.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

A deadline lynch gives a better chance of lynching scum than a no lynch does.

Reciting tired mafia catechisms at me doesn't exactly sway me in the way you probably were hoping.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Is this going to be another one of those "Ignore Triple D and do dumb thing" days? Cause if that's the case can I just check out of the game and come back for the flip?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ignore you...how? Like, ignore your vote on Sleepless Assassin? Isn't that more appropriately phrased "Ignore Sleepless Assassin and do dumb things"?

Is there any actual point to this other than some sort of semantic quibble?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, because it's goddamn weird to say something like, "People are ignoring me," instead of "People are ignoring the person I think is scum."

Not when the context has people ignoring me yesterday in regards to Macro and I'm pretty confident I'd still be ignored if I suddenly decided Rhinox was more likely scum than SA. At least in my last newbie game I got everyone to ignore me after leading two mislynches; in this game I've been right more than wrong and yet apparently don't have any credibility.

I'm not looking to sway you into playing near-deadline situations the way I do. Merely explaining my logic for playing that way.

Well you certainly aren't going to sway how I play; but I meant it in the sense that reciting tired mafia catechisms at me isn't going to sway my opinion that you're scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

vote:kortul

L-2 now, should claim

I'm curious why he should claim now with no one threatening a hammer.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

2. There are people off the wagon considering voting for him including voided

But if voided was planning on voting for him (and there’s no indication that he was; just that he was more likely to vote for him than Fishy) who not let Voided make that decision for himself?

Yes, I am anticipating someone coming and hammering kortul. I think he is scum and should be lynched. That said, he still should be allowed to role-claim if he wants to on the odd chance he has something verifiable.

So let me get this straight; you think TOWN are going to quickhammer a player you think is SCUM. And not only that but you want that scum to claim, to what, prevent that lynch?

There’s something rotten in the state of DCL.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Your 1062 is so informative, too.

Not gonna answer mag's question?

Or address 1035?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Logically, town wouldn't quickhammer someone, but people don't always act logically. I've seen town quickhammer without claims before.

And if they're quickhammering scum, what's the issue exactly? Shouldn't we be grateful for another dead scum and someone who is incredibly likely to be town given a quickhammer on scum?

~~

Magua, you want to see how I'm being ignored? Look right here. I think I've got something interesting and nobody else is interested in the slightest.

~~

UNVOTE:

SA vote isn't doing anything productive despite the fact that he's done nothing all day and I want to get a handle on this Magua/Fishy thing.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also to be fair to DCL, I don't see your point -- I would want a claim from a lynch even if I thought they were scum, because I could be wrong.

There's just a discontinuity between his words and his actions; if you're sure about something and you want to blitz the potential scum then asking for an immediate claim is fine but then you wouldn't be worried about a quickhammer; but if you're nervous or unsure then you play it slow and you don't ask for a claim, you let someone else ask for a claim when they're ready to hammer. You don't get to play both sides of the coin; either you're aggresive and willing to live with a possible mistake or you play it conservative and surrender some of the credit and blame when things fall apart.

@DDD: I don't see a problem with SA's play near deadline. Compromising in a deadline lynch situation is sensible, and the fact that he was wrong (assuming you're town, which I pretty much do) doesn't make it scummy.

The problem isn't so much the compromise lynch (which is bad but understandable) but the fact that there was no reason I was the compromise lynch choice for him other than convenience. There's absolutely nothing in his posts in that time period that really suggested that he thought I was scum. Add that to his woefully inadequate play today and the things I mentioned in 969 and I'd still love to have a SA wagon.

~~

Haven't had a chance to do a recent Fishy/Magua readthrough; will try to get to that ASAP.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

~~

So I reviewed day one looking at some newer ideas I've been studying and I have to say the odds of me getting behind a Fishy lynch are slim to none without something super substantial popping up. Interestlingly in my review, both SA and Alice (Magua) tried to link Malee (Macro) to Fishy and LS respectively which doesn't help their arguments. I could be convinced of a Magua lynch under deadline but we're not even close to that point, so instead I'd like to see SA tossed in a lake of fire.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: Sleepless

pretty much what Magua just said

Bravisimo.

~

Fishy looking back, will review.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Magua’s case on Fishy seems to be a two-level construct; first it’s a PoE eliminating those who helped lynch Macrophage and then among who are left he’s decided Fishy is the scummiest.

There are two big issues I have with Magua’s argument, first it seems to be largely meta based and my experiences with Fishy tell a different story as I’ve argued several times. The second is the lack of comparative analysis. If Magua did indeed PoE to a much smaller pool of suspects I’d expect to see some comparisons about why Fishy is a much better choice and I don’t really see that.

@Everyone who isn't Magua: Read me and Magua in double iso. He's consistently avoided engaging me on my meta, which is the bedrock of his case. His accusation that I haven't had reads or stances and/or that they've changed a lot is exaggerated for D1 and D2, and today is complete nonsense. I think it's pretty blatant that Magua isn't currently thinking about I'm saying or why, but instead looking for anything he can pick at, any way at all to keep up is spin that I'm not doing anything.

I mean I agree with this completely, there’s nothing substantial to the case that Magua has made in my opinion.

~~

Now as to the question of whether it comes from a scum perspective or not. The first thing to note is that it’s certainly not a pro-town thrust; some of the stuff I’ve been looking at suggests that town are much more likely to swing their vote around while scum are that much more likely to hunker down on whatever read they’ve got. On the other hand, the curious thing is how willfully defiant Magua’s been about his case since Fishy started actively defending himself. If you’re scum pushing that lynch surely don’t you go and cherrypick a few more examples to support your case or at least engage and disagree to try and persuade those who haven’t picked a side? It could be the case that there are literally no other examples he can use, but would Magua-scum push such a bad argument and wouldn’t Magua-town re-evaluate at some point when he couldn’t re-establish his point. I can come up with one possible town explanation for his behavior but I think the probability of it is relatively low compared to the other choice(s).

In the end my conclusion is pretty much the same as it was before; I’d prefer a SA lynch because of bad links to Macro on D1 and D2, and his complete flameout today but I can certainly see Magua as his partner or independently as scum if I’m somehow wrong about SA. They’re #1 and #2 on my list but in that order.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

-fish. Basically being very wrong yesterday which is awkward for me because I had almost the exact same reads as he did.
-magua. Basically may be a fit as a macro buddy although I still need to do my own research on this.

Your choices are you, Fishy, and Magua; who is scummiest and why?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You know I keep seeing Rhinox's name in the browsing list over the last two days and I keep expecting him to break this inertia we've got going and yet, nothing. DCL is also pretty much wasting his vote at this point unless he's going to retrench on kortul. And of course the rest of you are enabling SA in being as useless as possible.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: How are we "enabling" him when that implies that you're in that group and that it's not necessarily on our end? Maybe you're right, but SA isn't helping himself, at least.

I bet if you voted him either he might actually be forced into helping out; or we'd have dead scum and that's equally good.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Whatever, I don't like arbitrarily stretching days out on end but I've already placed my vote in regards to the matter. I really hope we don't end up just waiting and waiting and waiting for SA to create content and for Fishy to post some unknown something. Strike while the iron is hot; carpe diem and such.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Honestly though, I'm kind of curious and confused as far as why this hasn't been brought up. DDD, Hip, Magua, and Void. Can you list your reasons for thinking I am scum? I don't think I've seen anything yet.

This is at least part of the reason why I'm voting for you.

What you've done so far is good for an unvote, at least.

Really? You put someone at L-1 and tell them they're going to die if they don't produce content; they produce content and somehow that changes your opinion of them? What else was he going to do with all that time?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What you've done so far is good for an unvote, at least.

Really? You put someone at L-1 and tell them they're going to die if they don't produce content; they produce content and somehow that changes your opinion of them? What else was he going to do with all that time?

Answered your own question, broski.

If you weren't likely confirmed town this would drive me nuts in the worst way; that you out someone you apparently didn't think was scum at L-1.

hmmm... feeling kinda stuck now.

Whole game is kindof stuck; should've lynched SA when the opportunity was there.

V/LA through Sunday

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well I'm back briefly, but it seems nothing has changed in the meanwhile. SA, kortul, DCL, and rhinox are still fucking around on non-wagons and hiplop's replacement has had nothing to say. Man, I'm glad we didn't lynch SA-scum when he was at L-1; we've gathered so much positive momentum since then.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I disagree about Rhinox. See this thread for discussion of a similar idea; it's trivial for scum to respond properly; you might catch bad players who are scum with such gambits but Rhinox isn't a bad player.

Town: Voidedmafia

Likely Town: Fishy

Scum Wading Pool: Magua, Rhinox, DCL, kortul

Will wade into the pool later to see what makes sense given the latest bits of info.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Rhinox, Magua, anyone: my feeling is that 3 masons would be very unbalanced in a 13 player game where solid townreads are awesome things to have. Do you agree?

I know Friends and Enemies (3 goons, 3 masons, 6/7 VTs) plays in the Open Queue pretty regularly and is thus considered roughly balanced. Adding one quirky role to the town side and one minor investigative role to the scum side probably doesn't change the balance much (assuming there are no other PRs). And I can understand the Last Will part, but it also provides a massive swing if Voided does get lynched of killed that might benefit town but also might break the game open for scum.

My opinion is this: why would hiplop/imaginality/UberNinja give Voided his vote if he wasn't a mason? Sure 4nxiety could've been trying to pull a double move by giving his vote to Voided but if that was the case, why wouldn't hiplop/imaginality/UberNinja give their vote to someone else so Voided couldn't make this claim. Instead he/they gave their vote to Voided indicating pretty strongly that they feel that not only is he town, but he's town worthy of having three total votes.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I just keep coming back to Rhinox; I especially hate the response early today when other players were trying to clear him about his response and I disagreed pointing out his response to SA was trivial. And he pointed out that same thing and said he shouldn't be given town credit for it and I have no doubt that's probably true it's just the fact that he says such things (and he said it to me once before on day one) is that they're pure pandering. I mean scum surely benefit from being perceived as town for whatever reason; but so does town and the fact that he insists on correcting things like that just makes me feel like the entire thing is a performance designed to elicit the best possible reaction. I'll review his play yesterday more in-depth to see what I think of it when I get a chance later.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Spoiler:

End of Day Vote Count

Lastsurvivor (7)

-

nachomamma8

,

4nxi3ty

, DCLXVI,

Macrophage

, Alicewondering, kortul,

hiplop

Macrophage

(3) -

Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro

, rhinox

Debonair Danny DiPietro

(3) -

Sleepless Assassin,

fishythefish

,

Lastsurvivor

Vote Count

Macrophage

(7) -

Voidedmafia

,

hiplop

,

Debonair Danny DiPietro,

kortul,

4nxi3ty

, rhinox

DCLXVI

(4) -

Sleepless Assassin

,

Macrophage

,

fishythefish

fishythefish (1) - Magua

Sleepless Assassin

(1) - DCLXVI

Vote Count

Sleepless Assassin

(8) -

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, Magua,

Voidedmafia

, rhinox
Magua (2) -

fishythefish

rhinox (1) -

Sleepless Assassin

DCLXVI (1) - kortul
kortul (1) - DCLXVI

So in my research that led to one of the biggest reasons I’m clearing Fishy I’ve actually found a reasonable amount of evidence for some of the basic VCA assumptions; namely that scum won’t be all on or off a wagon; violations of that principle happened exceedingly rarely in my dataset whether there be two scum or three (didn’t look at large games). Given my other assumptions this really makes rhinox stand out on that D1 vote count.

First thing is more numbers and while rhinox promises more content in his first post on D3 and he does provide it compared to his non-existance at the end of D2 he’s still under the average in terms of posts and a quick check says I had more posts than him and I’m never a paragon of activity.

966 is IIoA, 977 pulls the same “don’t give me town points for that” that I mentioned earlier today, 1060 he gets caught having gone several days without posting again, next two posts are prod talk, his kortul read apparently falls apart and he goes missing again for several days on end; I can’t blame him for his V/LA but I’m having a hard time squaring the fact that he was ready to hammer in 1122 on 5/18; he has one wall post that doesn’t really move the game at all before hammering anyways in 1233 on 5/28. I mean if you’re going to delay things shouldn’t you make use of that time somehow instead it just looks like he’s waiting for a different wagon to emerge or someone else to hammer to keep himself off the wagon.

On re-analysis I gave him town credit for some things on D1, but I think my first instincts were correct and he’s scum.

VOTE: rhinox

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

*Fucking wall post; I'm not doing this again btw*

What are the reasons you're clearing fishy I couldn't find them in your iso?

Personal meta and an extremely reliable town-tell related to D1 activity.

Why is my activity level an alignment tell?

Why is my activity level compared to your activity level an alignment tell?

It isn’t

your

activity that bothers me in that; rhinox lurking = he’s scum; it’s that anyone under contributing is more likely to be scum for that fact. And I’m just using myself as a baseline to demonstrate the point.

One post of "information" does not make it IIoA. It makes it IMWA - Information Mixed with Analysis. IIoA is only a scumtell if there more information than analysis, thus the name Information instead of analysis. If 966 was ammended as part of my 965 for example, you wouldn't be crying IIoA. This is a big reach.

This is true; I was doing an ISO and didn’t see that your previous post was also the previous post in the thread.

Fine you've repeated this enough now and backed it up with a vote where I want you to explain why this is at all a scumtell. If someone is trying to call me town for what I feel is a bad reason I'm going to point it out because it could be scum trying to buddy me. I don't get how it makes any sense that why I as scum would have any need or desire to double up on town points by refusing to accept town points. If people are thinking I'm town, then I don't need to keep trying to fabricate more reasons for those same people to think I'm town if I'm scum.

Because it’s theatrics; you’re pushing away first level advantage to accrue second level advantage and to avoid hypothetical negatives. Those aren’t town behaviors; town behavior is to accept the benefits handed to you and ignore second level effects and hypothetical negatives because you’re town and who cares if there’s a connection between you and player X; you don’t even know if player X is scum and even is he is scum it’s not a death sentence if he’s buddying with you because you can point that out. It’s only the type of move scum with more perfect information about who is town and scum makes to position themselves better.

It did. Did you read any of that conversation between me and kortul? Because the way you throw in apparently makes it seem like a arbitrarily stopped pursuing kortul, or that my read shouldn't have fallen apart. What are you trying to say here?

Wasn’t intended to be an evaluative statement; just a time point setting.

After my ultimatum in 1183 SA made posts that mostly focused on him thinking I'm scum - yeah thats not really going to convince me not to hammer him.

You’re a smart player rhinox and yet you didn’t consider: why is the guy I’m saying I’m willing to hammer still calling me out as scum?

But before I could hammer people unvoted to where I could no longer hammer. 1207, 1221, 1223 and my V/LA he was all the way back to L-3. First opportunity to hammer him after I heard what he had to say and decided it was BS, I hammered. I did make use of the time - Just because you don't like 1183 doesn't mean I didn't take time to read some iso's and reaffirm my reads.

There were four RL days between your first threat to hammer and 1183. And you say you needed the time to read ISOs and reaffirm reads, but those are things you can do over night as well; the only thing you need day for is to interact with other players and you didn’t do that.

What is the scum motivation in giving time for SA to post some thoughts, and not hammering earlier before he could post thoughts, if I'm scum and know he was town?

Maybe a “better” counterwagon appears; maybe someone else hammers and makes you look better in VCA, maybe the town grows increasingly bored and it kills their motivation for the game, maybe you thought it looked like the safe and sensible thing to do and with your reputation you need to look safe and sensible instead of quick and rash. Pick one, pick several, come up with others, there’s lots of possibilities.

~~

@Rhino: Who you *do* find scummy would be useful.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

OK. I'll use hiplop as a baseline to demonstrate the point then.

*rolls eyes* It’s not as binary as less posts = scum; but less posts = higher probability of being scum; its science.

Well this is where we disagree. Why wouldn't scum just want to accept false benefits being handed to them as well? What makes scum more likely screw you're benefits, over town saying hey that doesn't really mean I'm town?

I agree scum would do it to mimic town; that’s what I expect to see because it’s the natural reaction either way; yours is thus not.

~~

Do you think they made good use of the time?

Well I'm back briefly, but it seems nothing has changed in the meanwhile. SA, kortul, DCL, and rhinox are still fucking around on non-wagons and hiplop's replacement has had nothing to say. Man, I'm glad we didn't lynch SA-scum when he was at L-1; we've gathered so much positive momentum since then.

~~

why do you have a stick up your ass about me not hammering SA but you haven't mentioned this at all?

Not really sure how the two are related other than they both vaguely involve hammers; care to explain?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I read the case from DDD and answers from Rhinox several times, and fail to see the case - it is mostly personal view, rhetorics, or attacks on inactivity.

Why would the guy with the least amount of posts defend inactivity, I wonder.

As i said, i see no scum motivation in not giving time to SA, but why do you apply this as scum tell only for Rhinox? I think this is what Rhinox tried to ask you as well.

Because no one else as far as I know threatened to hammer.

~~

Magua's case is problematic is several ways. First, it's solely based on what scum did which means scum can manipulate it to make things appear one way or another. It also ignores, like Voided points out, real life time sequence. It also ignores that speedhammering an unclaimed town player means he certainly dies the next day and most scum have bigger goals than getting one last mislynch before going down with the ship.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't ignore the "hammering unclaimeds can make your life expectancy short if they flip town," but I do counterpoint that Macrophage was a leading wagon D1 and D2. The scummier facet, as I see it, is Macrophage entirely dropping suspicion of you when you claimed "Secretary" but refused to give out any details. Even with Fishy's unvote in 914, he could have jumped back on and resumed suspicion of you, or pressed for details of your claim to try to get it confirmed (like Fishy did), but he doesn't. Why do you think he was so willing to give up your lynch and move onto DCL?

I don't deny that Macro was a/the leading wagon the first two days; but the only player that I've ever seen make that move was Nobody Special and his game is terrible. I think any reasonable player holds out hope that they can do things the "right" way for even greater long term payoff.

And the follow-up is pretty easy to explain as well; with a claim like mine he would've only brought more attention on himself by trying to get me lynched post-claim; if he had any hope of survival he couldn't continue to push that I was scum. And sure he could've pressed for more details but Fishy was clearly already doing that, but you didn't push for details as far as I can remember, neither did anyone else; I assume because it would've been fairly redundent to do so with Fishy taking the lead on that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Not really sure how the two are related other than they both vaguely involve hammers; care to explain?

Because no one else as far as I know threatened to hammer.

?

I said I was willing to hammer SA. Shortly after, DCL said he was willing to hammer SA. Whats the difference? Why am I scum for it but you haven't mentioned anything about DCL saying pretty much the same thing?

I actually forgot about DCL threatening to hammer because after that he backed away from that stance and seemed to be holding out for a kortul lynch especially. The situations are a bit different; you threatened the hammer, stalled things out, made one big post that didn't change anything and then hammered anyways; DCL threatened the hammer and then apparently changed his mind about the strength of his read and backed away from his threat.

I need to think about it more, but my first inclination is actually to

UNVOTE:

because it feels more like the motives I ascribed to you about wanting the lynch but not wanting to hammer fit DCL even better.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

One of the problem I've noticed before with my play is that as town I've been on mislynches too often, so I've been trying to be less lynch happy.

Does this bother other people as much as it bothers me?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Does this bother other people as much as it bothers me?

Nope.jpg.

Other people who actually have a handle on things like time sequence and casuality.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It's three days to deadline. Rhinox needs to stop being useless. DDD needs to say who he thinks scum is. DCL needs to realize that Fishy isn't getting lynched today.

I didn't realize deadline was so close. I really wish I could get a rhinox lynch; I realize no one else is interested but this just feels like one of those games where I'm right and I can't articulate it at all and scum just waltzes through the game. I mean there's no point in banging my head against that particular wall right now but let's make that a working assumption because fuck you that's why.

rhinox is scum.
I'm town, Voided is town, Fishy is town.
Which leaves kortul, DCL, and Magua as rhinox's scumpartner.

I don't think his scumpartner would be kortul because that puts both scum at the end of the bus on D2 and I don't think it would be DCL because of the way they both sat there waiting for someone else to hammer; if they were both scum one of them would've just taken the lead and done it. Which leaves Magua. It certainly fits with my VCA, Magua was exceedingly vote inflexible on day two and even into day three which is a scumtell for me and his case today shows a level of reasoning that's substantially below what I expect from him. Basically it appears he's pinning everything on the actions of scum ignoring the fact that scum often intentionally manipulate their behaviors to indict town players and also ignoring scum's basic survival instincts.

Now does it work if I'm somehow wrong about rhinox? All of the non-VCA points still stand and he's certainly got a possible scumpartner in DCL, kortul is a less likely partner with the way Magua started and appears to be ending the day voting for him but I'd have to review the depth of his conviction on the first pass before completely ruling out kortul. I think this is the best course of action.

VOTE: Magua

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Basically it appears he's pinning everything on the actions of scum ignoring the fact that scum often intentionally manipulate their behaviors to indict town players and also ignoring scum's basic survival instincts.

This is amusing, because my suspicion comes from you is *because* Macrophage not hammering you reads to me entirely like scum ignoring basic survival instincts.

A fundamental difference of opinion we still have apparently; scum quickhammering like that is a death sentance even more probable than not lynching me would've been.

Given that you're certain about Rhinox and uncertain about partner, and given that Rhinox and I both had zero votes on us, why did you vote me over Rhinox?

I already tried that; there's not enough votes for his lynch. If voided came around and voted for rhinox that'd be enough if you were willing to vote him as well but neither of those things seem likely on their own, let alone in tandem.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Btw, DDD, have you used your shot at all this game? And did you fullclaim at all yet?

Pretty much the answer to both questions right here (answer to both is yes btw).

What Magua proposed isn't a terrible suggestion other than the intent being to spread paranoia about me; while I still think it would be busted for scum to have my ability perhaps I'm wrong and they could have a matching ability so better to be safe than sorry.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Post 1368 That doesn't answer if it's X-shot, though, but okay.

Had already claimed that, sorry.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Shazam.

Mafia QT is here

Well done DDD and Kortul! Sorry about getting lynched.

And I thought your claim was really good DDD. I'm sorry that I didn't give my vote to you so it could be better. I was worried that it would seem fabricated if I had given my vote to you, but I think you were right that it would have been better if I had.

Why are you sorry about getting lynched? The combination of my role claim and me working so hard to get you lynched is what gave me the town cred to lead the town completely wrong in the next two days and then be given all the votes we needed to win. Really if there was an issue it was exactly what Magua outlined; if you're going to bus, bus; but the way you fell off me onto DCL when kortul voted for DCL was super suspicious.

And my claim was awesome because it was exactly the sort of role everyone thinks should be in this type of game but it's different enough that like Fishy said (incorrectly) that it doesn't seem like something scum would fabricate. I hadn't even thought about my claim on D1/N1 but as I was getting run up D2 I know I needed to put together something and the end result was perfect.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Though, Kortul and DDD, I REALLY have to ask why you shot Hiplop instead of me.

Relevant from the QT:

kortul: "According to him Fishy and Magua are not masons, which may be true, since they were his scumreads. That leaves 3 players as possible masons, and among them SA was sitting on 4nx for a whole day, less likely they are buddies. So possible masons are hiplop and Voided. Most likely it is hiplop, since 4nx is his only townread, and 4nx is actively protecting hiplop for both days, and hiplop is town for him from the beginning without single bad word."

kortul: "Just a quick post before going to bed. I still think that hiplop was second mason, but Voided is also possible (if there are 2 masons, not 3). shutting hiplop will silence imaginality with fresh look, shutting voided will give 2 votes to someone, which may be good or bad."

DDD: "I actually agree with your assessment of who to kill; if we're right then suddenly voided is a viable lynch choice again; if we're wrong basically nothing has changed and we kill voided the next night anyways... The only reason people think Voided is obvtown is that people think he's a mason; if people didn't think he's a mason there'd be room for suspicion."