Open 389 - Scumhunter's Speed8p, d3

[Korts]

VOTE: Metabot

It's bad enough that you're a bot, but meta is useless in mafia. You're a burden to this town.

[Korts]

Well yes indeed, the way for town to win a game of mafia is to lynch scum instead of town. You amaze me with your revelations, Tony! You've broken the game!

But really, it's not all that different from any other setup. If we lynch town, we'll have a 4:3 endgame tomorrow. If we lynch scum, we'll have a 4:2 Day 2 tomorrow with one more mislynch allowed. We're penalized for lynching one of our own, but that's only sensible.

[Korts]

Also I love your roundabout way of alluding to publicly available setup information:

From the way the role PM reads

It's almost as if you want to subliminally confirm yourself as town in those who read the town wincon of post #1 fame in their PM first.

[Korts]

Oh yeah and

VOTE: Fat_Tony

[Korts]

Actually, if we lynch town, we still end up in a 4:2 endgame. In both instances, we would have a mislynch allowed, in the second we would be allowed 2. No NKs. At lease it seems I did read the role PM, eh?

Nice wagon though, shame it has no wheels. I'm town, you should be voting for kanyeknowsbest. I trust you'll rectify that.

Okay, I read post 1 again, you're right on the 4:2. But if you did get that from your role PM, you really are scum, because the town PM doesn't talk about the scum having to kill their own.

[Korts]

And way to direct the lynch based on conjecture, and a flimsy one at that.

[Korts]

FYI Tony, "nice try but I'm town" is not a defense, it's a ridiculous appeal to emotion.

And since you're under the impression that my case won't stick, here's a breakdown for you. You alluded to a knowledge of your role PM when an allusion to a knowledge of the setup would have been not only the obvious choise, but the sensible one; you did this twice, and both times in an incriminating context.

To top this off, you reacted emotionally instead of defending yourself, resorting to OMGUS not just in my case, but also in IAUN's when he expressed suspicion of you.

You're welcome to try and talk your way out of it, but please scratch appeals to emotion and OMGUS from your repertoire.

[Korts]

unvote

[Korts]

Hold on a bit please. I have some real life things to deal with before I read your wall of text and write up my own.

[Korts]

Anybody else feel somewhat uneasy that Metabot is pushing for a quickhammer in this format?

LEADING QUESTION ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

But as for the opinion you wanted, I'm not overly concerned about an L-1 vote at the moment. Metabot seems more like an easily swayed newbie than anything else alignment relevant.

If I had to guess a scumteam right now

Why would you have to guess a scumteam right now? Let's try and guess a single scum correctly first, don't you think? Get your priorities straight, dude.

Anyway, I'll take your word on the role PM namedropping, but I'm still happy to report that I got some interesting reactions out of you. Consider these few quotes:

Townies, take note of this when I flip town if you take me to lynch.

Nice try, but no. Sorry, I'm town.

iamausername-scum would know I'm town.

If I die, I'll flip town.

You're charmingly eager to shout your townness from the rooftops as often as possible. Do you think if you repeat it enough, people will be more susceptible to the notion? Are you trying to convince yourself, perhaps? You certainly must be aware that this is the basest form of appealing to emotion in this game.

[Korts]

By the way, Tony, according to a quick scan of your posting history, you've played in six games. I wouldn't call you a newbie by any account, yet you keep reiterating that we should cut you slack.

And more people need to post.

[Korts]

I also propose that we do absolutely nothing until tomorrow so that scum don't get the benefit of daychat.

Actually, that's pretty counter-productive to the town. Scum can discuss strategy in their QT regardless of in-thread activity; it's better to split their attention by drawing their contribution here.

Plus there's some benefit to be considered from the difference in responses during and after the first 48 hours. If the scum are orchestrating their responses in the daychat, once they don't have that option they might post in a slightly different vein.

[Korts]

Also there's the fact that your suggestion would stifle discussion.

All in all,

VOTE: Katsuki

[Korts]

I think Metabot is suggesting a budding romance between the two of you.

I recall reading that this setup encourages scum-lurking.

Metabot is lurking.

Therefore,

Vote: Metabot

QED

I don't know if you noticed, but you also have yet to contribute aside from giving meta on Metabot and suggesting strategy based on a vague recollection. I'm sure you've heard the term active lurking before.

And by the way, now that vijay's more extreme lurking has been pointed out, are you going to keep voting Metabot for the same reason?

[Korts]

Man, so many people are pleading reaction testing to the charge of idiocy.

It was in part genuine. Namely, because at the time I made that post, we wern't losing the 48hrs of discussion that others are making my comments out to be, but rather less than 24hrs.

What part of the suggestion was genuine, and what was the logic behind that part?

[Korts]

Here's the second part of that post, then.

Not to mention as I stated earlier, if town does it's part in being active, 5 days is more than enough time to hunt scum, and minimal difference between 5 and 6 days.

The question is not whether we can do a good job in less time, it's whether there's any benefit to having less time--and to a 24 hour lull in conversation. That's the part I'm interested in seeing you explain.

[Korts]

I'm under the impression that NS is more apathetic than malicious, and I'm wondering if that's just his default modus operandi. Has anyone here played with him before? What's his play normally like?

[Korts]

Eh. You're right, it doesn't make you scum, I was caught up in how stupid the suggestion was, even if it was reaction fishing. That and I think reaction fishing is usually a fairly unproductive thing to do--you don't catch scum with it, you only generate unconstructive arguments.

I tried to see whether confronting you on this and the stupidity of your suggestion would give me some kind of lead to go on, but I'm still pretty much at a loss. At this point I'm against the Tony wagon--he comes across as someone who just doesn't know how to argue or scumhunt, not as someone deliberately trying to manipulate town into a mislynch. NS I suspect is just generally an active lurking player, although I'm still waiting on someone who knows his play to make a statement on that; all I have right now is a vague suspicion of vijay that I don't want to substantiate until I have more posts from him to go by.

unvote

[Korts]

And YOU need to contribute.

Seriously?

VOTE: Nobody Special

L-1, people.

[Korts]

And when did we ever play together, Katsuki?

[Korts]

Why are you so concerned about his reaction, when you don't even bother to defend your anti-town behavior, or explain your hypocritical accusations of lack of contribution?

[Korts]

The lack of town discussion brought by kanyescum hammering Tony at that point would not have been any great benefit to him when considering the heavy suspicion it would have drawn. And I don't consider kanye to be a disposable player to serve at his team's pleasure like that. You're pushing PoE unnaturally hard right out of the gate, dude--but I mean, why the fuck are you even talking about process of elimination when you ruled out one of five suspects in all?

[Korts]

To be fair, I probably wouldn't, no. First of all, it would make the game a complete drag, and I like my games fun. Second, if there's no town discussion going, attempts at manipulation will be far more obvious and the rest of the scumteam will be exposed to a greater risk.

I don't really suspect kanye of being scum at the moment, but I do suspect the timing of your eliminating him from your pool of suspects based on this. This happened on page 2, and you're only raising it now? There would have been no harm to mentioning this before, but tying it together with the process of elimination bullshit (where apparently I'm not the only potential suspect left, you just don't have a rational means to eliminate Tony other than by plain omission) just reeks of subtext.

[Korts]

Sorry guys, I was pretty smashed for most of yesterday.

So Tony is clearly not interested in scumhunting, he's just shopping around for a comfy wagon.

VOTE: Tony

I have a massive hangover, so I'm lying down now.

[Korts]

I'll try and do a bigger post tomorrow, but I got an urgent translation gig today. Sorry guys.

Korts needs to explain why he flipped onto the NS lynch.

NS was being ridiculously unhelpful, and Day 1 in this setup allows for anti-town policy lynches--the outcome of a lynch, regardless of the faction lynched, is a 4:2 Day 2 with one townie and one scum dead.

As for the "L-1, people," it was neither a warning against a hammer, nor a call for scumpartners to quicklynch. It was merely a signpost--I wanted to avoid "accidental" hammers where the last voter can claim that they were caught up in the moment and didn't realize the game state, whether it's true or not. That just adds an unnecessary layer of uncertainty to scumhunting.

Expect more tomorrow.

[Korts]

Sorry guys, I spilled water on my computer and now it won't turn on The big post will have to wait.

Can we just get the Tony lynch over with?

[Korts]

I'm not intentionally stalling, Tony, I'm just forced to post from my phone, which is annoyingly difficult.

unvote

Metabot makes a fair point about vijay's role in the D1 Tony-wagon.

I'm getting an IAUN-Katsuki vibe right now actually. I'll be back tonight when I have more time.

[Korts]

Sorry guys, I wasn't fully invested in this game for the past couple days for multiple reasons. Consider me back in 100%. Well, make that 90%, and expect a bit of rambling--editing my posts to a streamlined perfection of conciseness is kinda hard on a screen this size.

So I went back and reread IAUN's train of thought in the process of elimination. I agree with him that the interaction between Tony and vijay implies Tonytown, and that a Metabot/Katsuki pair is unlikely considering their lack of involvement in the NS lynch despite both having the opportunity to hammer. I'm not particularly convinced that kanyescum would have hammered Tony when he had the chance in early game, but I accept that my line of reasoning as per post 178 is a bit obscure as well as a matter of taking into account the nightless nature of the setup instead of acting on quasi-impulse. I can see where IAUN is coming from eliminating kanye from the pool of suspects.

But by nature of it being written from IAUN's perspective, his pairings from process of elimination bear little credibility in my eyes--his name is interchangeable with mine in those pairs without trouble. I understand the logic as coming from from IAUNtown, but when he presents it as an argument to lynch me, it makes me read it as deliberate manipulation of facts by omission of himself.

Also, Tony is town. Regardless of all the newbie platitudes ("scum can act town to gain townie points" as a serious point in deduction is a beautiful example of that) he seems genuinely intent on making a sound judgment call, trying to avoid premature day's end by not voting me to lynch -1, and plus there's that whole vijay thing.

I'm not impressed by the way IAUN avoids the whole Tony/Katsuki spat on page 8-9. Instead, his post 203 addresses Metabot's borderline irrelevant question about vijay's death, and goes on to request scumreads from him--while providing no new material from IAUN himself. Same with 215--he asks for specifics from Metabot again on a marginal point, and defends his earlier argumentation, neither of which are particularly constructive in light of Tony/Kats. He addresses kanye's interpretation of the situation, alluding to his own read on it, but asks for an explanation instead of giving his own analysis. Then nothing in 221 either, and then the town's attention just turns to other stuff completely. I wonder why he was avoiding that topic.

The lynching of a townie D1 absolutely hurts town. Yes the setup is the same, but the wincon changes. It is absolutely harder to find two scum in three goes than one scum in two.

Okay, you're right. I forgot about the White Flag modifier. If I was aware at the time, I might not have pushed an immediate lynch of NS--but he was being unconstructive to an extent that he was my top suspect, and I would still probably have lynched him.

Katsuki's 243 really sounds like gloating scum.

Hyup. Let's do Katsuki first.

VOTE: Katsuki

[Korts]

Hold on, hold on.

Why are you unwilling to vote Katsuki at this point, Tony? A few pages ago, you were adamant that he was intentionally misrepresenting you. What changed?

[Korts]

Actually okay, I see what you're saying with Metabot.

So what's your take on the Tony/Kats spat, again?

[Korts]

KORTS PRETTY MUCH CLAIMED SCUM

That's rich coming from you, Mr. I-love-this-seniority-rule-because-it-means-we-can-just-sit-here.

I'm going to bed. Wake me up when someone's dead.

[Korts]

No see what I'm saying is you saying that you're content with waiting until the rules do the lynching for you is as good as claiming scum.

[Korts]

And YOU need to contribute.

Seriously?

VOTE: Nobody Special

L-1, people.

this is literally his only comment on ns during the wagon. its a very safe position for scum to take, especially if you know your scum buddy is coming in quick to hammer it. also remember that it had already been established that L-1 was tantamount to a hammer because of scums ability to do this. i think that you should reevaluate your read on korts, especially if this is mainly what it is based on.

literally the only comment? Are you crazy? I tried to get some lind of meta read on him plenty of times, I tried engaging him, that post was just the final straw. I may not have commented on the votes on him before mine, but there was nothing to say about them, they were completely justified.

[Korts]

Yeah slow down there cowboy. We have a week to consider the lynch, and you're jumping right out of the gate to "honor" the wish of someone with no insight into role distribution.

I'll reread soon and post something.

[Korts]

Well that was fast.

Props to the scum team. I was pretty sure kanye was scum after he started pushing my wagon so weirdly, but I had no idea how to call him out without incriminating myself. Metabot, on the other hand, I never once suspected.

And Katsuki, for your information, two games' worth of experience with a player is not a very reliable basis for meta analysis at the best of times, but when one of those games I replaced out of early day 1, and the other was ruined mid-day 1, you really shouldn't assume you know how I play as town.

[Korts]

Goes back to what I was saying in that I didn't think you or IAUN really believed the things you guys were saying.

Eh, I guess you're right in that regard, insofar as you're talking about my D1 play this game. I got really enthusiastic when I saw something to latch onto from Tony, and then that didn't really spark discussion like I'd hoped, so I latched on with the same enthusiasm when you made the daytalk argument. Neither was a genuinely scummy thing, I just wanted a conflict to emerge and people to take sides.