Open 394 - Double Day UNLIMITED (Game Over )

[mafia-n00b]

VOTE: Hoopla I have a feeling I'll end up knee-deep in this....

kondi, izak: come at me bros!

[mafia-n00b]

Also...

VOTE: hoopsmcgee Too close in name to Hoopla.

[mafia-n00b]

It's unclear to me whether Scott is requiring the full player name for a valid vote. It's entirely possible that there are only two votes on izak.

[mafia-n00b]

Should I hammer him, mafia-n00b?

If you

know

his alignment, I'd love for you to hammer him.

VOTE: jackal for putting izak at L-1 without announcing it... naughty naughty!

[mafia-n00b]

Calm down, I checked my email from the bathroom and waited til I got out to post. :p

[mafia-n00b]

Really? Bad answer?

If you

know

his alignment, you're scum. So you hammer, he flips town, we lynch you. Guaranteed scum lynch on D1 at the cost of one townie? HELL YES.

[mafia-n00b]

Yup, and I was waiting to see who noticed. Spoil my fun more, why don't you!

UNVOTE: jackal

[mafia-n00b]

Cute. I told you what to do... you just don't like that it would reveal your alignment.

edit: lie? ... I complained about someone putting someone at L-1 without stating it IN A POST where I did exactly that. That's humor.

Favorite Disney character ... probably the horse from Tangled... but I reserve the right to come up with something better.

[mafia-n00b]

Straight answer, hoopla: are you actually advocating lynching in the second hour of an 18 day "day"? Regardless of who you want to lynch (me or izak), I'd love to hear your rationale for that being a smart move.

[mafia-n00b]

Hoopla, you can rationalize all you want, but I know you're wrong. When I get hammered, you'll know you were wrong too. :p

Quicklynching when so many people have yet to post strikes me as ridiculous, but I admit I'm new. Do we really want to not hear from more people?

[mafia-n00b]

Honestly? No clue.

[mafia-n00b]

No... which I know doesn't *look* good, but it's honest.

[mafia-n00b]

By lynching him early, especially in this setup, we get a flip which gives us a huge load of valuable info.

This is true... just so long as you reflect on what happens if Hoopla is wrong/lying.

[mafia-n00b]

If you're town, she's either mistaken town or stupid gambiting scum.

This is what worries me. I always WIFOM in this sort of situation. Either she's just misguided town (the fact that EVERY game I've played people think I'm scum D1, even when I'm town actually argues in her favor), or stupid scum, or she's pulling the "that's too stupid to be a scum move, she must be town (and is secretly scum)" trick. Too scummy to be scum?

[mafia-n00b]

Bah. Network down at work. Please don't lynch anyone til I'm back.

[mafia-n00b]

Wow, that was fun. Someone plugged a PoE phone into the wrong jack and clobbered the network for the ENTIRE building. Good times.

Hoopla, putting your credibility on the line about me is a Bad Idea™, I've already pointed out that I tend to look scummy D1 (I'm still trying to figure out why).

Everyone else, go ahead and lynch me, but when I flip town, you damn well better lynch Hoopla back.

[mafia-n00b]

Izak, under normal circumstances, I'd concur. Just because Hoopla is wrong about me doesn't make her automatically scum. But...

I'm putting my credibility on the line with this decision.

SHE is the one making that big bad-ass "look at me" claim. When she's wrong about me, her credibility (and therefore utility) to the town should (rightly) be zip. At that point, she's useless and should be disposed of. In fact, I can't even come up with a logical pro-town rationale to be so blatantly "sure" about a read in this scenario.

[mafia-n00b]

t that point, she's useless and should be disposed of. In fact, I can't even come up with a logical pro-town rationale to be so blatantly "sure" about a read in this scenario.
You state that you can't come up with the logic behind Hoopla behind so "Sure" about her read in this scenario...And yet two posts up you state that you usually look scummy D1.

So either A) You know that you usually look scummy and would understand why Hoopla is so sure about her read or B) You're just making shit up at this point.

I didn't say I didn't have any clue why she might think I was scummy, I said that I couldn't understand how she was SO SURE that she'd stake her reputation on it. For goodness sakes, I still don't even get *why* people think I'm scum right off the bat, I've just noticed that they do.

[mafia-n00b]

mafia-n00b, when I get back to this in the morning I want links to:

Your first ever MS game
Your most recent town game
Your most recent scum game, if there is one
What you consider to be your best game

I can do it for you now, but you're not going to be happy. The recent outtage hosed the ends of my first two games (both town) and the beginning of my last game (scum). Here's the links anyway:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=19417 First ever game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19636 Most recent town game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21465 Most recent game and only scum game.

[mafia-n00b]

It should be enough. What about a game you think you played really well in?

I thought I did reasonably well in that second game (beehive) once I got over the early game jitters. I did make a crucial mistake in my wording right in the LYLO endgame that made the other townie hammer me and let the scum win, but I learned a lot at least and correctly deduced who the remaining scum was.

The recent game where I was scum I thought I did rather well too, we managed to pull out the win for the scum team. Although Haylen really took the reins, I think I played my part quite well.

[mafia-n00b]

...So, why's mafia scum again?

I'm not, but apparently the wisdom is that this makes Hoopla overzealous town rather than scum, so ...

UNVOTE: all

VOTE: jackal
VOTE: brain
VOTE: hoopsmcgee
VOTE: voided

I want pressure on the lurkers, but I think a few of them are at L-1 so I need a vote count before I place my votes for real.

[mafia-n00b]

Meh...

The way I look at it, I've seen scum lurk and town lurk. It's not easy to tell the difference, but lurking town don't help the town much, so encouraging them to be active is good. There's no excuse to PR lurk as there are no PRs, so there's that too.

As soon as you say "That's not something that scum would do", all you've really done is give scum a clear path to look town.

So, yeah... I do think that scum might do that.

That aside, just because I vote for someone doesn't mean I'm convinced they're scum.

[mafia-n00b]

VOTE: Jackal711
VOTE: Prolapsed Brain
VOTE: hoopsmcgee
VOTE: Voidedmafia

This brings Prolapsed Brain and Jackal711 to L-1 with me.

@izakthegoomba: You have unlimited votes and there was only one on voidedmafia... do you unvote anyone you have no scumread on?

[mafia-n00b]

Sorry, maybe the reasoning wasn't clear. There's more than one reason to vote someone... and you're saying that you'd only vote because you think they're scum.

[mafia-n00b]

@Voided: I didn't vote in order to replace izak's vote, I intended to vote you before he removed his vote (see 103).

Re: prolapsed, I don't think he's in much danger atm, anyone hammering at this stage would be pretty obvscum.

[mafia-n00b]

I want pressure on the lurkers

[mafia-n00b]

As of 103, you'd done nothing except vote during RVS, retract your vote and ask why I was scum. Since then, you've done nothing but question my vote on you. YOU'RE NOT CONTRIBUTING. Also, why so worried about my vote? I'm the only vote on you, you're in no danger.

[mafia-n00b]

OK, I've got some reads, so here goes:

Hoopla : probtown, although I know she's wrong about me
hoopsmcgee : neutral-to-scum, I don't buy the reasoning for the kondi vote
izakthegoomba: probtown or dangerous stealth-scum, his stuff looks like straight-forward scum-hunting
Jackal711: neutral-to-scum, throwing out some half-baked suspicions and lurking
Kamikrazy: neutral-to-town, kondi's argument isn't 100% convincing, but it's interesting
kondi2424: probtown, I think 119 is straight-up town
Prolapsed Brain: probscum, there's no town motivation to lurk this much and not scumhunt if there's no PRs
Voidedmafia: neutral-to-scum, explained in 117

Consequently, I think I'd be OK with a Prolapsed Brain lynch at this stage.

PEdit: I don't give Jackal711 any town cred for unvoting me, it feels like its maybe scum trying to sneak off a failed wagon and gain some town cred by bussing a scumbuddy.

[mafia-n00b]

@izak: you made a cogent argument, and since I think you're town I give it some weight, but honestly it's mostly gut. While the "reputation" bit is still irritating, I've been going over and over possible scum motivations for her behavior and other than an outright "too scummy to be scum" gambit, I can't come up with any. Anyone have any scum meta on Hoopla that indicates if this is a likely tactic given the lack of PRs in this game? The thing is, the fact that scum KNOW that they can't ever be copped/tracked means that they don't have to worry about getting scanned. That "should" make for different scum play than normal, I'd think. Goddamit, I'm WIFOMing my way back to neutral on Hoopla.

[mafia-n00b]

I think I'm a little biased towards the "crazy gambit" mindset at the moment. I just came from winning a scum game where I fake-claimed cop, was fake-counter-claimed by a scumbuddy and we didn't even know there was no real cop! ... I'm still not entirely sure that Haylen wasn't insane to suggest it, but it did work.

[mafia-n00b]

Well, duh. Have you not read my sig at all?

Nope.

I've got work, yknow. Nevermind that you put up 4 full pages while I was at work, and it's only been, like, 2 days since we officially started? Not everyone gets going right out the gate.

So you work 48 hours straight with no breaks for something like the game? Noted.

I questioned the vote because I wanted to know why you were voting me, as you hadn't given any reason prior to me asking about it.

Are you really that dense? I spelled it out explicitly in 103... before you asked about it. You were voted to prod you to contribute.

Of course, your reasoning assumes that I had the time to completely digest what the hell just went on in the 9 hours I was at work yesterday and properly respond to it all (though I still don't really have any sort of idea of what I want to think about it), which obviously wasn't true.

Not what I was assuming, but interesting that that's what you think.

Now, I understand that a good event just happened, but why are you so pressing to get people to get going this early? If we were a week in, I'd understand, but we're not.

If you don't see the benefit of trying to get people to contribute prior to a lynch, then you and I have very different playstyles.

[mafia-n00b]

@Hoopla, you were telling me *I* was avoiding questions?

The question you're being asked is twofold:

What conclusions will you draw if prolapsed flips scum?
What conclusions will you draw if prolapsed flips town?

[mafia-n00b]

Prolapsed Brain, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 1

Well, at least we have one less lurker?

VOTE: Jackal711

[mafia-n00b]

@izak: howso? you don't suspect Jackal?

[mafia-n00b]

VOTE: hoopsmcgee

I don't see it as clearly as you all do, but I'll go along with this.

[mafia-n00b]

@Voided: I didn't vote in order to replace izak's vote, I intended to vote you before he removed his vote (see 103).

Re: prolapsed, I don't think he's in much danger atm, anyone hammering at this stage would be pretty obvscum.

You go from thinking that a hammer on Prolapsed would be obvscum to three hours later saying that you would be comfortable with a prolapsed lynch? Almost nothing happened during that time period so why did you suddenly change your mind?

Yeah, that looks weird I guess. When I said that a hammer *at that point* would be from obvscum, it was because there hadn't been any discussion of lynching him for real. Once people started making cases and arguing for an actual lynch (rather than just pressure voting), coupled with the fact that Prolapsed continued to lurk even under pressure, made me content with the lynch.

[mafia-n00b]

He stated here that there was no town motivation to lurk with no PRs in the game, votes Prolapsed who later gets lynched, and then immediately votes another lurker. Maybe he should have re-assessed his convictions following the flip if he truly believed them.

Nope, I still believe it's the right idea to lynch lurkers. Lurking town doesn't help us and letting lurkers live to lylo is a Bad Idea. Prolapsed flipping town doesn't mean my analysis was wrong, it just means Prolapsed wasn't playing pro-town very well.

[mafia-n00b]

VOTE: CES

From my limited experience with CES, he's dangerous. He likes to make lots of noise without explaining what/why he's doing it. I'm not sure that's going to help town much in this game, even if he's town... and if he's scum, he's going to be super deadly to town.

[mafia-n00b]

@izak: I'm not proposing we lynch him yet... are you proposing we lynch everyone you've voted for?
@CES: This is a different sort of game... with no PRs, I'm thinking your play-style will hurt us. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[mafia-n00b]

I've never been as much a fan of finger of suspicion, but if it makes you all feel better, I'll FOS cog instead.

UNVOTE: CES

My concern stands. CES, I *hope* you're town and that your play outs scum.

[mafia-n00b]

And you're misunderstanding my point. Town lurkers don't help town, especially if there's no PRs that need to hide. Lurkers aren't necessarily scum, but they need to die in this game.

[mafia-n00b]

And you're misunderstanding my point. Town lurkers don't help town, especially if there's no PRs that need to hide. Lurkers aren't necessarily scum, but they need to die in this game.

Why did you choose to ignore my attack and subsequent vote on you?

Because your arguments are weak, unconvincing, and ultimately not worth responding to... oh, and your conclusions are wrong as well.

[mafia-n00b]

n00b, I didn't see you voting for kondi. What is it about CES that made you suddenly jump on him with no prior indication of the slot's scumminess?

Quite frankly, I'm scared of CES. His playstyle is such that I really don't know how to deal with it. He's quite a good player, so as scum he'd be especially lethal. Unfortunately, as town, he's also unpredictable enough that scum could easily use it to their advantage in sowing discord/mayhem. Basically, I worry that he'll be such a powerful player in the game that, regardless of alignment, he makes me nervous.

[mafia-n00b]

@izak: the only time we played together, we were both town... he scared me then, he scares me now. I'm not saying we need to lynch him, but you *did* ask why I was suddenly suspicious of him. I told you the truth... that doesn't make me scum, it makes me honest.

@hoops: worried about the wagon developing on you and want to shift attention? Noted.

[mafia-n00b]

@voided:
sorry, iwhich "it" do you mean? CES' playstyle? Look at some of his completed. He is all over the map. I don't know how we'd get a scumread if he's scum. If he's town, scum can use that to their advantage, I'd think. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but that's my take on CES. Heck look at his play in this game already. He says he could be placing votes as mind games in 180, and look at 174 and 204... the guy is weird.

@izak :
1) Mostly eaten by tigers, but here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=19417
2) His vote moved around so much it's hard to tell, honestly. Out of what's left from the tigers, he wasn't on the first mislynch, but he was on the second; he didn't like explaining his behavior or reads, so I'm not sure how he was helpful. The little information he did offer was apparently only because he was IC.

@all:
You'll notice I never actually said we need to lynch CES (well, at least not today), I just raised my suspicion of him based on meta.

[mafia-n00b]

What. The. Fuck.

YOU CAN'T BE SUSPICIOUS OF SOMEONE JUST FROM META WHEN THEY'VE DONE ESSENTIALLY NOTHING

Denying reality doesn't help much. I *am* suspicious.

So what if it's a policy vote? We've already established that you're not going to vote people that you don't think are scum. Good for you. Not everyone plays that way.

[mafia-n00b]

I was totally useful. My reads were good

Your secret reads may have been good, but your public votes were all over the map and you declared several people "scum scum scum" who flipped town.

[mafia-n00b]

mafia-n00b. Simple answer time. Is CES scum. Y/N.

As stated before, I don't know. If I knew for sure, I wouldn't be worried.

[mafia-n00b]

@hoops: worried about the wagon developing on you and want to shift attention? Noted.

I see you've noted a question that you just asked. Does it help you not forget it later on? Does it become unnoted when it's answered? Or was that your way of accusing me in the form of a question so it doesn't seem as important if you need to backtrack later on? Or something else maybe?
Really, I'm not worried about a wagon on me as there still hasn't been any solid reasons that I have seen for it, and if I am lynched, the town will easily be able to pick through the wagon to find scum. I'd defend myself if there was something to defend, but so far I haven't seen anything, so no reason to address the wagon.

I was accusing you in the form of the question to be snarky, not to seem as if it was unimportant.

[mafia-n00b]

OK, at izak's prompting, I've been going over kondi's posts and trying to see if anything makes sense when you add in CES' posts.

What about a hoopla/CES scum team? Kondi pushing for a quick-mislynch on me in post 30 and then 13 minutes later in post 41 we get "quicklynches are bad" so that he can save face when I flip town. In post 84 he backtracks all the way and says the only reason he was voting me at all (someone who he was ready to lynch) was because hoopla was so sure. In post 119 he declares hoopla "automatic town" and is "not sure at all on Hoopla anymore" when he leaves in post 151. Sounds like he was backing the growing town-wagon on Hoopla and then backtracked when he was leaving so as not to pin his replacement to that read. This would argue that his 151 post probably correctly declares izak, me and Kami as town. Also, trying to get someone to give him the "OK" to hammer town (guess Jackal is town too) in 119.

Hoopla's "sureness" on me looking for a quickmislynch and then the hammer on Prolapsed... with no explanation of her expectations of what Prolapsed's flip might mean... does this make any sense?

UNVOTE: All
VOTE: CES
VOTE: Hoopla

I'm not staking my reputation on this or anything, but it makes sense to me.

[mafia-n00b]

Dude, that's ONE post.

Let's not forget that you declared Lunitawolf scum and helped lynch her (she was town) and declared Tochica scum-in-need-of-lynching (she was town too).

CES is trying to get towncred from telling the truth about me (when I get lynched and flip town, he can say "see, I told you MN was overzealous town") and also by pretending his reads were better than they were back in our last game.

Scum.

[mafia-n00b]

Starting to understand my concern, izak?

[mafia-n00b]

@voided

Yeah, that looks weird I guess. When I said that a hammer *at that point* would be from obvscum, it was because there hadn't been any discussion of lynching him for real. Once people started making cases and arguing for an actual lynch (rather than just pressure voting), coupled with the fact that Prolapsed continued to lurk even under pressure, made me content with the lynch.

I'm not buying it. There was hardly ANY discussion at all. The only thing even said about him was Jackal's #120, which didn't bring anything new to the discussion. The only real significant thing during that time period was Kondis vote on Hoops.

Vote: Mafia-n00b

I don't think you've done much to endear yourself as town. Your "I just happen to make myself look scummy D1" only retains its worth for so long.

The problem with it is that the crux of his argument is that I went from saying "anyone hammering him would be obvscum" to "it's ok to lynch him" in too short a space. That's bogus. First of all, over 2.5 hours went by between those posts, and I spent that time re-reading the entire thread (notice I posted my reads in 121). In that time, my read on prolapsed went from null lurk to scum lurk, so I wanted him lynched. Kondi and jackal both expressed interest in a prolapsed lynch. You (voided) started engaging (less lurking is good), so you were no longer a primary target. It's not magic, it's not a flip-flop, it's Mafia... that's how the game goes.

[mafia-n00b]

Jackal prod?

[mafia-n00b]

OK, this is getting ridiculous. How long are we going to let Jackal get away with this crazy lurking?

[mafia-n00b]

Read jackals posts in ISO. His only post in 5 days is "oh, have I not been posting? I will soon!". That was over a day ago.

[mafia-n00b]

Hoops is still sitting at L-1 and Jackal didn't point out that he put me and hoops there. Maybe it's a bit of a gambit, but how does unvoting me help hoops if hoops is scum? Much better to have me at L-1 too so that I might be hammered.

CES, are you good with a Jackal lynch today? Mildly scummy, according to you, right?

[mafia-n00b]

I still think CES is scum, and I think Hoopla is a natural partner... pretty sure I don't want to help them lynch someone.

[mafia-n00b]

Jackal, care to explain? You just unvoted him in 292...

[mafia-n00b]

VOTE: CES
VOTE: Hoopla

The flip and NK have done nothing to change my opinion.

[mafia-n00b]

VOTE: Jackal too...

That hammer was bogus, add in the power-lurking and DLG's observation and Jackal is at least as in need of rope as CES and Hoopla.

[mafia-n00b]

Because I'm confident that two of the three of you are scum.

[mafia-n00b]

Jackal is active lurking, he's been posting all day and ignoring this thread. Let's do this.

[mafia-n00b]

...

Can anyone explain what the hell is going on?

[mafia-n00b]

Wow... just, wow.

I guess I'll have to start a list of "people I've been blacklisted by"... next to your name I'll put the reason: "Unable to read his mind".

[mafia-n00b]

Mod is vla. Just waiting on him.

[mafia-n00b]

I will not be playing fast and loose with votes at this stage.

CES, I'm not convinced on DLG, lay it out more clearly.

DLG, do you *honestly* think Jackal's freak-out was staged??

Hoopla, Voided, why no Jackal vote?

[mafia-n00b]

Hoopla, Voided, why no Jackal vote?

Mafia, Mafia, why you no read?

You're referring to 328?

Sorry, I had no idea what "those kind of shenanigans" meant in that context. How would your vote on Jackal have been any kind of shenanigan?

If you mentioned why you weren't voting Jackal elsewhere, I missed it.

[mafia-n00b]

Hoopla, damn you, get in here and do something so that people can figure you out!

[mafia-n00b]

@CES

If DLG isn't scum, who is?

[mafia-n00b]

I'll hammer Hoopla. I want to see who votes Hoopla 2nd.

[mafia-n00b]

CES, you and who? Maybe you'll get Hoopla to agree, I doubt voided will go along and I don't show any signs of wanting DLG dead, do I?

[mafia-n00b]

... you people are very frustrating.

STOP DOING THINGS THAT MAKE ME RE-EVALUATE MY DAMN SCUMREADS!!!

[mafia-n00b]

OK, I'm going to lay out my whole thought process for you all... I'm relying on town to help me... there's more of you than scum, so hopefully this works.

Incoming wall of text...

[mafia-n00b]

Put yourselves in my shoes for a moment and take a ride with me...

I'm town.

Hoopla goes off the deep end staking her reputation that I'm scum. This seems insane. However, plenty of people (admittedly much better at this game than I am) are "convinced" Hoopla is town. Well damn.

Given not only the inaccuracy of her read on me, but also her SURENESS means that I cannot trust any reads from Hoopla.

There's only one scum left, so the fact that everyone except for me seems convinced that Hoopla is probably not the scum means that "the town" believes this to be true. I am aware that the odds that everyone but me is wrong are not good.

CES is flippant and (IMO) unhelpful... but that also seems to be his play-style, so that's not in and of itself a scumtell.

CES wants DLG gone widdaquickness.

I just don't get why. I don't see the scumminess of the kami/DLG slot. When it was just CES advocating it, I could believe it was purely scum wanting a mislynch.

Now that voided is on board and they can't BOTH be scum, that means at least one townie sees something I'm missing.

Throw in the fact that Hoopla has essentially gone dark (her participation in this game is DRASTICALLY lower than it has been), and I'm totally fucking confused.

Basically, everything I think I have as a read is being disputed by at least one townie, so I don't know what to think anymore.

Heck, why does no one (including me) think voided is scum???

So, town, I'm throwing myself at your mercy... you've seen my thought process. Put yourselves in my shoes and PLEASE help me see what it is that I'm missing so that we can lynch the damn scum and win today.

[mafia-n00b]

Voided,

You're relying a lot on process of elimination, but going over your ISO, I can't find where you've eliminated kondi/CES as a possibility... so why is it just me and DLG?

[mafia-n00b]

Hoopla, you'd've nightkilled me, right?

I don't know. It depends if I thought you'd attack me or not the next day.

I wish Jackal didn't self-hammer, it would have made it easier to tell if he was bussed. This is why I'm not ruling out CES.

Let me think...

You've had over a day to think, Hoopla... you lurking isn't helping town.

[mafia-n00b]

Great job, town... thanks for not leaving it up to me... I fully got snowed by DLG... I doubt I'd have helped you lynch him.

[mafia-n00b]

CES, damn you, man... you have some sort of freaky voodoo power that I still can't comprehend... how the hell did you know he was scum??