Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread

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Post Post #3 (isolation #0) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 am

Post by zoraster »

I don't think Best Role Claim is likely to come back. It's such a specific award that focuses on one very narrow element of playing when we don't do the same for other actions that are equally as worthy, it doesn't get much nomination love, it's extreeeemly context specific (whether someone wins the award or not depends heavily upon game elements), and it may negatively influence game behavior (though I doubt this).

That said, we are looking into adding an award that captures some of what we like about Best Role Claim: namely that it recognizes good play in an individual thread that doesn't require being good year round. We're still discussing what the best way to implement this is, however.

Best Gambit has been suggested before, but it's just not a good award. While I don't really believe Best Role Claim causes bad behavior, Best Gambit may well do so.

I understand your concern with Smooth Operator. That's one of the reasons we've made a few changes to the award. First, we changed the name it's being called in the award to Excellent Moderation. This isn't a true change as it's always been its "official" name, but I think that puts a broader look at moderation policies. Second, we changed it to a body of work award. While doing good vote counts, etc. in any individual game isn't all that special, being a consistently good moderator who acts swiftly, fairly, etc. is something we should want to celebrate.

I don't think we'll do shared scummies except where it makes sense. This is an awards show, not a participation trophy.

I see why you suggest the body of work award that you do (sort of a best rounded player), but I don't think it's a practical idea, and I like that we recognize the very different functions that scum and town players do.
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Post Post #10 (isolation #1) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:46 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 5, chamber wrote:I was throwing around the idea of merit based achievements instead of the classical way scummies are handled with someone over aim the other day. The entire process for awarding them atm seems flawed because I think judges are rarely as invested as they'd need to be to make strong choices, and the nomination process requires you actually get nominated for a given award. Examples of achievements being something like winning > x% of your town games, winning > y% of your scum games, never getting mislynched as town, never getting lynched as mafia, being in a game where you were only on scum lynches. I'm sure you guys can think of more. The idea would be objective awards that could be handed out to any number of people.

Issues with this are the current method of display of scummies, and actually tracking it all, but hopefully that would be worked out on the backed of the site by next year (which if I understand correctly is what you are taking suggestions for?)



This would make our site into a very statistics based entity. It'd probably also mean we start to do things like ranked/unranked games (or else have conversations about whether we count normals differently than themes, etc), etc. That's not to totally dismiss the idea, but it's something that until now we as a community have resisted a great deal.

Frankly it's out of the pervue of the scummies steering committee as well. Personally, my reaction is extremely negative to it. But I don't feel that my position on the SSC gives me any more authority to judge the validity of this suggestion any more than any other individual community member.
Last edited by zoraster on Thu May 03, 2012 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #12 (isolation #2) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:49 am

Post by zoraster »

I actually agree with Ice, chamber. Scummies are pretty far removed. While best Gambit might cause a player to gambit when he would not, instituting statistics and the like WOULD mean that people would start to make different choices in what games they play, who they play against, etc.

The entire history of ranked online gaming stands attests to this.
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Post Post #13 (isolation #3) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:54 am

Post by zoraster »

By the way, chamber. That's not meant to mean that I don't support having some tracking mechanisms in place.
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Post Post #30 (isolation #4) » Thu May 03, 2012 10:41 am

Post by zoraster »

Maybe we should just bring people in on what the actual suggestion was than hint around at it. I do appreciate you guys not singling me out, but I'm okay:

In post 156, zoraster wrote:I think quadz has a point in that something a little less serious might be a positive thing. Something to sort of document the lighter side of mafia. But Funniest Role Claim has been seriously played out. It was probably funny half a decade ago when someone claimed something krazy, but it's lost a lot of its zing.

So instead, why not something more general:

The That Funny Thing Happened Award

Given for an in game post or series of posts that tickle the participants and judges. Given to as many people as the judges feel the award justifies.

This way, we get what we really want: links to funny in game stuff. It could be a role claim, but it could also be something really funny like banter between two people or something.

---
And how about replacing the Best Role Claim with a
Best Individual Performance in a Single Game
. First, this is not unprecedented. Until 2008, we had this award, essentially. Second, the way I'd like to see it implemented is that people nominate for Don Corleone and Paragon body of work awards, and while considering that the judges pull out some really notable performances. Most of the time, people are nominated for Don Corleone and Paragon for individual performances anyway. My worry is that if it's a direct nomination that we'll really weaken and water down the Paragon and Don Corleone award and vice versa.

I think this allows a spectacular performance, perhaps capped off by an amazing role claim, to shine through in a way that in a body of work award it does not necessarily. But it's far broader than just best role claim.
\

there's been a good deal of discussion since, but I see no reason you can't get the water straight from the hose at this point in time.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #5) » Thu May 03, 2012 1:48 pm

Post by zoraster »

Yes, but it also has all the problems that I explained before. Just because it lacks the concern I listed with a new suggested award doesn't mean it's superior.
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Post Post #37 (isolation #6) » Thu May 03, 2012 1:57 pm

Post by zoraster »

You didn't need to.

EDIT: That sounded harsher than I meant it to be. I just mean that this thread is so that we can take feedback into consideration and give you our reasoning for things. Our disagreeing on something will happen -- I understand your point. It's taken into consideration.
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Post Post #40 (isolation #7) » Thu May 03, 2012 2:43 pm

Post by zoraster »

To be fair, mafia is a game...
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Post Post #42 (isolation #8) » Thu May 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Post by zoraster »

Yeah. I agree.
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Post Post #49 (isolation #9) » Fri May 04, 2012 1:33 am

Post by zoraster »

They may be flawed, chamber. Any system where a group judges others on their accomplishments is in some way flawed. But the medicine is worse than the symptoms.
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Post Post #57 (isolation #10) » Sat May 05, 2012 2:01 am

Post by zoraster »

What Vi said about the hall of fame thing. plus, we do sorta. It's the Golden Fedora, and MeMe is the only recipient thus far.

Best Moment In a Mafia game isn't a bad idea.
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Post Post #100 (isolation #11) » Mon May 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Post by zoraster »

come up with 5 people you think potentially deserve a golden fedora. I think that might make it easier for me to think about the award. Because to me it's a lifetime achievement award, and thinking about the types of people that would be up might make it better.

Will Vi nominate Tar? Tune in next week! ;)

I like the most memorable moments thing. probably time to refer it to the SCC.
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Post Post #102 (isolation #12) » Mon May 07, 2012 2:59 pm

Post by zoraster »

i don't mean to downplay what they do, but if we just give awards to the admins, we might as well not give them at all.
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Post Post #114 (isolation #13) » Tue May 08, 2012 1:29 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 105, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 102, zoraster wrote:i don't mean to downplay what they do, but if we just give awards to the admins, we might as well not give them at all.

I don't necessarily think we deserve one, certainly not just for being admins.

BUT to be fair, people who aren't admins tend to get the "Name should be in
Orange
Lights" award nominations. It's kind of a tautology...


Absolutely. I don't necessarily have a problem with giving admins awards, though I think that tends to make the judges jobs interesting if you allow it for essentially being an admin. But I guess I had a knee-jerk reaction to any award that's set up primarily to be given to three people. I know Amrun obviously didn't mean just those people, but if the three suggested possibilities are all admins, my pattern recognition gland goes beep beep beep.

And if it IS something we only want to give to admins, why not just have an "admin service" medal that's put under each admin's names with a star for each year of completed service.

MeMe, for what it's worth, got hers as a sort of retirement thing.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #14) » Thu May 10, 2012 9:24 am

Post by zoraster »

No, I don't think so.
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Post Post #153 (isolation #15) » Fri May 18, 2012 5:58 am

Post by zoraster »

I'm not sure I see that as much different than Don Corleone/Paragon other than changing the way it's nominated.
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Post Post #165 (isolation #16) » Thu May 24, 2012 4:07 am

Post by zoraster »

Yeah. Unless we go chamber's route of statistics and badges and stuff and a leaderboard, it's going to be difficult to do with any level of objectivity.

I mean, look at what I had to do to get some level of objectivity in my team mafia games (I'm actually kind of proud of that system this year). A long time ago I tried to put together sort of a modified ELO system that was interesting, but probably a bad idea to do universally and far too much work to get anything approaching a decent sample size.

I just think the game itself is pretty subjective. What's good or bad play is often in the eye of the beholder. And that's ESPECIALLY true if you're doing an overall award.
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Post Post #167 (isolation #17) » Thu May 24, 2012 6:53 am

Post by zoraster »

The other thing is that we're not epicmafia or some other site where people can get through 20, 50, 100, etc. games in a month. If we were, we might be able to do some interesting things with statistics and have a good enough sample size to make some sort of thing about it. But the average person probably doesn't play more than 20 games in a year on MS. Let's say you're trying to find the best scum player in the game for the previous year. At 20 games a year, he'll average 4.6 games as scum (at the 3:10 ratio) in that year. Those 4 or 5 games are a ton of evidence to consider when you're doing it subjectively. But no matter how many elements you can figure to pull out of each game for scum, 4 or 5 games is not really enough to make an objective claim.
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Post Post #181 (isolation #18) » Thu May 24, 2012 4:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

Doing nominations or judging by a large group of people is seems like it would make it MORE likely to induce popularity and reputation contests. The more people to add, the less time they're going to actually spend going through it. The common denominator will be reputation.
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Post Post #196 (isolation #19) » Sun May 27, 2012 1:27 am

Post by zoraster »

Yeah except if the goal is to reduce reputation or popularity in giving roles...
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Post Post #201 (isolation #20) » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:08 am

Post by zoraster »

I did MVP voting for both the winning and losing side for each subgame of Team Mafia last year as partially a way to help the judges determine the eventual winner.
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Post Post #208 (isolation #21) » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:56 am

Post by zoraster »

yeah. i don't really see a need or a place for that award. for one thing, you'd have to define what's "fair" in the context of mafia.
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Post Post #210 (isolation #22) » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

how is that not captured by the Most Enjoyable award?
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Post Post #214 (isolation #23) » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Post by zoraster »

the funniest poster got changed to Most Enjoyable or Funniest Poster award
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Post Post #242 (isolation #24) » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

I don't recall any objections to it at the time, i just think it's one of those things that didn't end up getting a yea or nay vote. that'll be rectified.
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Post Post #256 (isolation #25) » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:47 am

Post by zoraster »

Smooth Operator is actually the nickname for the Excellent Moderation scummy, but the nickname kind of gave the award a life of its own. I like Reck's suggestion, but I still think there's a place for recognizing those moderators that run the bread and butter good games, even if those are fairly difficult to distinguish. What I might suggest doing is splitting Excellent Moderation/Best Moderator Body of Work award and the Smooth Operator awards. My problem with simply eliminating smooth operator is that our scummies already skew heavily toward those that run Large Themes even though those are only a fraction of our total games played, and I'd like some recognition for people who simply run smooth games.
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Post Post #272 (isolation #26) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:23 pm

Post by zoraster »

it's one of those crazy contraptions where a set of dominos sets off a toaster which burns a magazine which's smoke sets off a smoke detector which scares a bird which jangles its cage which sets a ball rolling down a ramp that flips a switch on an electric kettle, which brews the tea that you're after.
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Post Post #274 (isolation #27) » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:32 pm

Post by zoraster »

I still would like to recognize those that do not do complicated games with recognition. Having someone who is "best in class" among those, even if their work is not as impressive because it is "easier," I still want them recognized for that. I think it sends a good message. Yes, maybe at some point it becomes a thing of the past when automatic vote counts come in, but we can change it then. Anyway, I'm not holding my breath on those, but I would love to be suprrised.
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Post Post #308 (isolation #28) » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:23 am

Post by zoraster »

I don't see how it fits.
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Post Post #318 (isolation #29) » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:34 am

Post by zoraster »

Snugglebear
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Post Post #329 (isolation #30) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:31 am

Post by zoraster »

I think he's saying basically a "Best Overall" award. It's not a bad idea theoretically, but I think practically it would be very difficult to differentiate from paragon and don corleone. Also, I kind of like that there are two "major awards" so to speak, and this would basically take its place.
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Post Post #331 (isolation #31) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:55 am

Post by zoraster »

I think it's kind of weird to have an award where the explicit requirement is to not be particularly good in any one category. We have Rising Star, but that's about trajectory.
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Post Post #334 (isolation #32) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:18 am

Post by zoraster »

It's not that I don't like the idea, and I really like the name for the award, but I am a bit wary of it in practice.
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Post Post #337 (isolation #33) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:04 am

Post by zoraster »

that we are planning on fixing it, not that we have fixed yet.
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Post Post #339 (isolation #34) » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:37 am

Post by zoraster »

Gendered.
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Post Post #345 (isolation #35) » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:23 am

Post by zoraster »

Well, for a moment let's assume you're right about biases, friends, etc., which I think is mostly but not entirely unfair.

Do you really think that an overall award that would likely be seen at least as high on the scummy hierarchy as Paragon and Don Corleone if not higher would really make it so that those things aren't problems?

It's possible that such an award benefits you because you're really good at both sides of the game, but it does not do so because it isn't subject to the whims of judges while the others are.
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Post Post #349 (isolation #36) » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:51 am

Post by zoraster »

I don't mind a grace period that is up to the nomination deadline with the provision that if your game doesn't get nominated because there wasn't enough time, you'll have to wait until next year. And also if your game gets nominated in one year, it cannot the next.

But really, that kind of just shifts the problem from (in this year's case) January 1st to January 11th. A line has to be drawn at some point, and someone is going to have to wait like 18 months to see if they won.
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Post Post #360 (isolation #37) » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:25 pm

Post by zoraster »

Proof of concept please: what game(s) would have been properly nominated?
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Post Post #384 (isolation #38) » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:28 am

Post by zoraster »

We could scrap setup and mechanic altogether and do:

Best Theme Design
Best Normal or Open Design
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Post Post #386 (isolation #39) » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:35 am

Post by zoraster »

Well, here's what I'd say about Smooth Operator

Get rid of it or at least make it "Best Moderation" and make that award about the general body of work. Really make it about who is the best mod over the past year, and stop focusing on just vote counts and stuff. That can be a piece of it, but it should also focus on how fun the games were that he ran, how many, and so forth.

Then the "Best Theme Design" becomes the single game award.

I actually think Best Normal/Open will go to Open game design more than Normal. In that case, it goes not to the mod but to the designer.
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Post Post #390 (isolation #40) » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:51 am

Post by zoraster »

I think Smooth Operator is already a "Moderator Excellence" award looking at the current description, so that's fine. (And it's BOW)


It really, really, really is not. Or at least that has not been how it has been interpreted by the judges.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #41) » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:51 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 388, Kublai Khan wrote:Nominees should not be allowed to judge the categories that they are nominated for anymore.


They weren't this year either. There was too much nominee chatter though. My suggested policy for next year is to say that if you post in a category's thread, you're disqualified from winning it. That's good because it'll let people who are nominated but don't think they have any chance of winning to still say something, but with the knowledge it makes it a certainty. Generally speaking, it's not that hard to narrow nominees down to 2 or 3 even in the biggest categories.
Last edited by zoraster on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #393 (isolation #42) » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:53 am

Post by zoraster »

edited my post.
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Post Post #397 (isolation #43) » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:18 am

Post by zoraster »

no, it was still body of work this year (for the first year) it's just that it focused more on vote counts, not making errors and such. Which is all important, but it's not the be all. Not to take anything away from the award winner, of course.
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Post Post #405 (isolation #44) » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:55 am

Post by zoraster »

Let's be honest: the golden fedora is just for when mith feels like it. Arguing about when or why to award it is kinda irrelevant.
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Post Post #472 (isolation #45) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:52 am

Post by zoraster »

first, sorry i wasn't more help with organizing things this year. Things have been kind of hectic and I've had a few other things on my plate MS side.

yeah. Bork should have won the Smooth Operator award. That he didn't was a failing of something. Equinox was an okay substitute for him, but the fact that there were arguments for Magua, who only moderated two games the entire year, only one of which was particularly notable (and the third in a series using similar mechanics even), was being seriously considered was not great. Not because I don't love Magua's mod style -- I certainly do. But because a body of work award where two of the selections have moderated 8 or so successful games and another who did 2 shouldn't really be in question.

I think maybe we should step back and rethink what are the things we want to recognize and what are the things that we can actually differentiate? In other words, clearing our minds about award categories, what are realistic things we can target that make our site better or show off a player's ability, etc.

For example here are some things that may be worthy of recognition without regard to differentiating them:

Player Side

The person who is toughest to catch as scum
The person who finds scum the best
The person who can control the town to get the lynches he wants to best (probably in some combination of either of the two above)
The person who makes games more fun to play in, not just funny or nice or whatever but people that make the game better by their presence.
The person who pulled victory from the mouth of defeat
The person who helped new players get better (IC or otherwise)
The person who players think of as the best overall player, regardless of their side.
The person who has shown the most improvement over the past year and is now one of the best players on the site


Moderator Side

The moderator who comes up with the most original ideas
The moderator who executes and refines an idea the best
The moderator who creates the most fun environment
The moderator who provided the best games over the past year
The moderator who did the nitty-gritty of moderating the best

Games

The game that's the most entertaining to read for an outsider
The game that shows off a town's teamwork best
The game that shows off a scum's teamwork best
The game that was most closely fought
The game that had the most original idea behind it
The game that used power roles the most effectively

Community Side

The poster who was the most thoughtful about mafia
The reviewer who helped games the most
The listmod who surveyed the most people in Large Theme Games

The person who makes the site a better place just by posting
The funniest poster
The most intelligent poster


Anyway that's a start. Feel free to add more things to that list. Of course not all of these can be made into an award. Some things are just too vague to really determine. Other things just don't provide enough of a handhold to differentiate between nominated categories. Others can and should be combined.
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Post Post #480 (isolation #46) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:29 am

Post by zoraster »

1. To those saying the things I said were similar, yeah. But as I said, the point was to brainstorm the things I think would be nice if we could recognize and then from there decide one what actually works as an award category. It wasn't "all these should be separate categories."

2. Is there any way we can get at the difference between "Best Mutation" and "Best Setup." I think in our heads we can understand how they differ, but when it comes to actually judging they're often hard to separate. I know this might be controversial, but because the Best Mutation/Mechanic is so often a large theme (only once has it been awarded to a Mini, Magua's original Marketplace Mafia), maybe just explicitly say that Best Setup should go to a Mini, Micro, Open, Newbie (if someone designs a better newbie setup, for example) or Large Normal game? This would cut down on overlap a lot.

Right now, my focus is kind of on trying to find better demarcations between awards. Trying to make it so that fewer times do we go "well. It's okay as a ______ but it also would work as a _______" The Best Mutation category is a good start. I don't mind if a game or player wins multiple awards, but I'd like to be able to look at the person or game in question and say, "yeah they did both these distinct things so well they deserved the award" rather than "this idea was so cool that it bled over into two categories where it dominated"
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Post Post #482 (isolation #47) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:52 am

Post by zoraster »

i wasn't discounting mini themes from the best setup, just large themes. Even flavored theme games are difficult to analyze from a setup perspective when they're large. There's just so much that can go on. But Mini Themes are often indistinguishable from Mini Normals except they have some flavor attached and they're run by somewhat more experienced moderators. I think it'll be a lot easier to make apples to apples comparisons if large themes are excluded.

How about two categories:

1. Best Setup and/or Mutation - Theme Category
2. Best Setup - Non-Theme Category

This way, there's no argument that something is a mechanic and isn't really the setup or whatever because that's all supposed to be considered. Frankly, as a moderator that focuses on mechanics, I think the setup is PART of the mechanic. I don't design a game with a new mechanic and think "okay. Now what power roles do i throw in here?" I craft the power roles to use the mechanic and the mechanic to use the power roles and so forth.

The downside to the proposal above is that I think it'll make flavored but not themed games less likely to win the award, but that's probably okay with me. We could probably even include a clause that says games that are normal but for flavor (i.e. the game would fit normal guidelines BUT FOR the flavor, nothing else) can be considered in the non-theme category.

Mostly I'm just trying to get rid of this idea that the mutation and the setup are distinct things when in a well designed game they're not.
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Post Post #488 (isolation #48) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:04 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 485, Faraday wrote:
In post 480, zoraster wrote:I know this might be controversial, but because the Best Mutation/Mechanic is so often a large theme (only once has it been awarded to a Mini, Magua's original Marketplace Mafia),
Is this a problem? How often has best setup also gone to large themes? (I think if that was also high it might be worth looking in to?). A large is more likely to try new mechanics, because they're hard to fit in small games.
no, it's not a problem. I'm just recognizing the realities of the situation and trying to get at different things that can be recognized while still making our life easier by giving more distinct categories.

My point isn't to limit mechanic to large themes. It's to remove them from consideration from best setup. But I think my second suggestion was better.
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Post Post #490 (isolation #49) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:15 am

Post by zoraster »

my concern with something like best normal/open is that it won't get nominations, not that it isn't deserving of an award.
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Post Post #492 (isolation #50) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:49 am

Post by zoraster »

that wasn't the suggestion, was it? anyway, slippery slope is a logical fallacy. If it got the point where it "got silly" we stop splitting.

I'll be honest: I don't think a Mini-Normal game should win a scummy for best setup. I just don't think there's enough to differentiate one mini-normal from another to make judging meaningful. I don't want to disqualify mini-normals from a category because of that -- why bother and i'm willing to be proven wrong -- but I'm not really willing to put much emphasis on increasing their nominations or wins.
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Post Post #522 (isolation #51) » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:15 am

Post by zoraster »

I wouldn't mind it as an "Honorable Mention" category that didn't come along with an icon and whatever, but it's not a category that should be a scummy.
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Post Post #566 (isolation #52) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:33 am

Post by zoraster »

Adding categories is not a good idea unless it is a very good idea in which case it is only an okay idea.
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Post Post #574 (isolation #53) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:31 am

Post by zoraster »

any award that is not specifically tailored toward rewarding a loser will go to a winner.
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Post Post #576 (isolation #54) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:48 am

Post by zoraster »

3rd party is mostly like that even though it's technically a body of work, but no, we don't have something that specifically recognizes a single player from a single game.
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Post Post #579 (isolation #55) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:51 am

Post by zoraster »

oh you're right. okay. then that i guess. though theoretically a team third party would probably qualify.
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Post Post #580 (isolation #56) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:51 am

Post by zoraster »

btw the description of GOTY still says "given to the moderator"
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Post Post #585 (isolation #57) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:01 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 583, Psyche wrote:there are in fact loads of ways to quantify scummies


what a helpful comment.
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Post Post #587 (isolation #58) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:20 am

Post by zoraster »

Or given your preferred method. Having "lots" is meaningless (not to mention vague) when you can only use a limited number of methods to ACTUALLY do it.
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Post Post #660 (isolation #59) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:29 pm

Post by zoraster »

getting enough active mods is always an issue. the split has been attempted and it actually tends toward less activity from everyone involved (the more people are debating something, the more I'm confident they've actually read and considered what they're talking about).
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Post Post #666 (isolation #60) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:40 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 665, Firebringer wrote:If being objective was your goal, I am telling you right now:

All these awards are subjective.

Thats a silly reason.

No one has claimed objectivity, right?
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Post Post #693 (isolation #61) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:24 am

Post by zoraster »

Keep in mind that scummies are about recognizing exceptional play, not really (or at least directly) about incentivizing it.

Having an award that was given out to 10+ people tended to devalue scummies more than not having a pro-town team award devalues townhunting. Obviously sometimes it's best to follow. Paragon still allows for that, and hopefully the judges recognize it.

The truth is that in any individual game it's not always possible to perform to a standard that'll get you nominated or win a scummy. The opportunities just may not be there, no matter how skilled you are. It's okay that games where you don't make it out of N1 aren't going to get you nominated.
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Post Post #711 (isolation #62) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:27 pm

Post by zoraster »

I think the point, mollie, is that you keep making arguments in favor of teamwork being considered for scummies. Reck is saying it is considered. But what you're REALLY after is you want TEAMS to be considered for scummies.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's meaningless that I hear "scum team" quite a bit, but I rarely hear "Town Team" but rather just "Town."

"Scum Team" comes up with 36736 matches. "Mafia Team" 3500. "Town Team" only 766.
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Post Post #714 (isolation #63) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:42 pm

Post by zoraster »

Fair enough. Sorry you disagree.
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Post Post #719 (isolation #64) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:56 pm

Post by zoraster »

It's also worth noting that you can become a judge and push more for rewarding teamwork as an individual, perhaps putting more weight on instances where a player decided to follow when it's the correct decision.

To the extent scummies provide incentive to change behavior, they do so on an individual basis. That is, I'm provided a reason to act a certain way personally. If the system is designed to reward teamwork and I care deeply about winning a scummy, I'll try to work with my team. If Paragon rewards teamwork, as it tends to, it still provides adequate reason for players to play as a team.
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Post Post #722 (isolation #65) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:00 pm

Post by zoraster »

For what it's worth, "teamwork" as it applies to towns is a pretty fuzzy concept to me. Obviously sometimes you have to treat other (unconfirmed) town members in an adversarial fashion.
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Post Post #724 (isolation #66) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:43 pm

Post by zoraster »

You're not speaking into the void (though personally your text speak makes it harder for me to parse what you're saying). I've listened. I understand what you're saying. It's not unreasonable. But it's not likely to change the decision in this case.
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Post Post #726 (isolation #67) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:50 pm

Post by zoraster »

3 games within 2016. Possible there might be some exception made for an ongoing game as a third?
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Post Post #754 (isolation #68) » Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:02 pm

Post by zoraster »

more meaningful perhaps, not really more legitimate.
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Post Post #757 (isolation #69) » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:10 am

Post by zoraster »

I have an easier-to-use (for us at least) nomination form that's ready to rock whenever the steering committee decides to use it. One idea I had was to have the locking listmod link to the nomination form/description when they move/lock the game post. I think that'd probably result in more nominations.
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Post Post #785 (isolation #70) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:59 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 783, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 711, zoraster wrote:I think the point, mollie, is that you keep making arguments in favor of teamwork being considered for scummies. Reck is saying it is considered. But what you're REALLY after is you want TEAMS to be considered for scummies.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's meaningless that I hear "scum team" quite a bit, but I rarely hear "Town Team" but rather just "Town."

"Scum Team" comes up with 36736 matches. "Mafia Team" 3500. "Town Team" only 766.

But people are also playing in hydrae far more often than they were before, which I think is because people are trying to explore their personal connections to other players more; people are trying to gain greater understanding of each other and play as a team in a way that isn't usually possible in town roles.



I mean, this may be the case. But it seems to only reinforce what I'm saying, which is that viewing town as a "team" is misleading. People may want to achieve some level of team mentality, leading to hydras and the like, but that's because it's lacking in the fundamental way that mafia works.
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Post Post #787 (isolation #71) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:03 pm

Post by zoraster »

could you tone down the sarcasm if you're trying to make a lucid point?
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Post Post #789 (isolation #72) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:08 pm

Post by zoraster »

Well I'm just having trouble understanding what your point is in reference to the scummies.
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Post Post #909 (isolation #73) » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:16 am

Post by zoraster »

Yeah. We aren't WOTC judges. The scummies committee, given enough options, will try to select those it think will do the job best, but what you're suggesting will only make it more of a popularity contest (since individual users will be far less likely to review games in depth) and unduly influence. Plus, as Reck says, anything that makes the job of scummy judge suckier is going to reduce participation and is a bad idea.
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Post Post #918 (isolation #74) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:56 am

Post by zoraster »

That occams razor.
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Post Post #938 (isolation #75) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:05 pm

Post by zoraster »

Come up with a clear vision of what that should be, including standards that can be judged on some basis other than "I kinda feel like picking this" and it's worth considering.
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Post Post #939 (isolation #76) » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:09 pm

Post by zoraster »

Also, I'm not sure I really want to encourage "winning" posts and threads in discussion any more than people already do.
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Post Post #941 (isolation #77) » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

I mean that was the intention. In the past, it's just been a straight up public vote from the judges for their favorite. Although narrowing the field to finalists hopefully means the judges dedicate nearly equal attention to all selections, I think hat judges, particularly in the larger groups, will inevitably begin to focus their attention more on their top couple rather than spending a whole lot of time figuring out whether they think #4 or #5 on their list is more deserving of the #4 spot. I'd love to be wrong about that, but I'm trying to be realistic.

I'm not particularly married to it though.
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Post Post #948 (isolation #78) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:04 pm

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No.
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Post Post #949 (isolation #79) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:08 pm

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the downside is that nominees and others can put, intentional or not, pressure. It risks it becoming a popularity contest. Or perhaps more of one. And in the mean girls way. This isn't an idle consideration. One year someone leaked the discussion to one of the nominees and it caused CONSIDERABLE ill will.

In fact, this year I moved even more toward an anonymous system where final votes were submitted only to me. Discussion still took place, but the votes were private.
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Post Post #951 (isolation #80) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:21 pm

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If you know it's being made public, you have to adjust what you say and do to avoid potentially negative consequences.

If you don't and then it is, that's a pretty crappy crappy surprise.
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Post Post #952 (isolation #81) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:23 pm

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For real, think about why YOU want to know. You were nominated. You didn't get it. That hurts. You want to know why and who voted against you. Someone who's a friend knows you're going to see they voted against you, knows that'll hurt your feelings, etc. and don't you think that can't help but influence the way they act?

And even if they're WRONG, the perception of risk is there and the perception is what causes the problem.
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Post Post #954 (isolation #82) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:47 pm

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feel free to disagree with the judges choices. That's half the fun of awards shows. But I am not subjecting the judges to public scrutiny for their individual choices. It's just not going to happen. No one is saying anything "inappropriate." This isn't the same as the release the PT discussion. It's a matter of how judge opinions affect their interpersonal relationships and the risk that has of coloring votes and discussions. Judging isn't a social game.
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Post Post #956 (isolation #83) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:58 pm

Post by zoraster »

Scummies aren't intended as a self-improvement metric.
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Post Post #959 (isolation #84) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:10 pm

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Scummy nominees don't not win because of mistakes or whatever. We are talking about pretty subjective stuff and nominees by their nature — and finalists in particular — represent top tier stuff. If you view Scummies as a reason to rack yourself over the coals you are completely missing the point.

The answer is no, and it isn't changing. Feel free to post more about it, but I've explained the reasons for not doing so, and it isn't going to change, whether you see the disadvantages or not.
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Post Post #971 (isolation #85) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:28 pm

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To be fair, Andries, I think we greatly streamlined things this year.
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Post Post #992 (isolation #86) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:34 am

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In post 990, LicketyQuickety wrote:I mentioned this in the actual Scummies 2017 thread, but I think I like the idea of having a "Most Improved" body of work award. The key difference between this award and "Rising Star" is that "Rising Star" measures how someone starts playing when they first get here as opposed to the distinction of players who have turned their game around in one way or another to bring their game to new heights. Some people are "late bloomers" so they have no chance of getting an award like "Rising Star." It also wouldn't be contingent on a player being a superior player according to other players but being a superior player compared to their own play. I feel this fits nicely into being somewhat of a niche award all the while being general enough for the award to have some overall significance and can definitely motivate players to try and bring their A game each and every game they play.
Rising Star Description wrote:
Rising Star:
This award is given to the player that is a rising star in the game of mafia, showing great promise to join the elite echelon of mafia players. This award replaces both the Best Newbie award and Most Improved Player awards, and judges may consider elements of both those previous awards in deciding this award.
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Post Post #996 (isolation #87) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:56 am

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Depends what you mean by "Vet." Rising Star has been a category since the 2012 scummies. If you assume Scummies covers a time period ending December 31 of the year listed (so December 31, 2016 for the 2016 awards), winners have been on for:

2012: MattP - August 22nd, 2011-December 31, 2012: 498 days
2013: Empire - September 18, 2012-December 31, 2013: 471 days
2014: Kagami - November 9, 2013-December 31, 2014: 419 days
2015: Plotinus - March 13, 2015-December 31, 2015: 294 days
2016: Dwlee99 - July 3, 2015-December 31, 2016: 547 days


So the average number of days was 446, or roughly 1 year 3 months. Dwlee99 actually started BEFORE the previous year's winner, Plotinus.

So most winners exist in a newer member but not that new category. Which makes sense to me. The ability for someone who's been here years to win is certainly there, but I imagine for 2017 if someone started in 2013 there'd have to be a clear, articulable reason why they should win the award now.
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Post Post #997 (isolation #88) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:03 am

Post by zoraster »

Let's not fool ourselves either. Here are the "Most Improved" winners:

2007: Battle Mage - Jan 10, 2007: 356 days
2008: Not sure if it was awarded
2009: SpyreX - April 24, 2008: 617 days
2010: MagnaofIllusion - February 9, 2010: 326 days
2011: Andrius - February 16, 2010: 685 days

So SpyreX and Andrius were both around the 1 year, 9 month mark, but Battlemage and Magna both under the year mark. So even if you broke the two categories out to newbie and most improved again, you're probably only targeting slightly older users, and then not all the time.
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Post Post #1000 (isolation #89) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:31 am

Post by zoraster »

Why would we? We have a TON of awards that vets compete for and win.

Paragon, Don Corleone, Best Third Party, Most Memorable Event are all awards that shouldn't favor newbies over veterans.

And of course, veterans are the ones usually running the games that win for moderation.
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Post Post #1002 (isolation #90) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:34 am

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I don't think 2016 is updated yet, but this has it: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... y:Scummies
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Post Post #1005 (isolation #91) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:01 am

Post by zoraster »

Awards are fairly stable from year to year. There aren't any current plans to add or remove categories this year, I don't believe.
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Post Post #1007 (isolation #92) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:08 am

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A group of people, the scummies steering committee, talks about awards and each year evaluates whether awards need to be removed, added or changed. This past year was probably the largest single-year change with the removal and consolidation of a number of awards.
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Post Post #1009 (isolation #93) » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:11 am

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I'm not trying to be cagey or anything. What I described is pretty much exactly what happens. Whether an award is added, changed or removed is entirely based on what the SSC values.
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Post Post #1051 (isolation #94) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:50 pm

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Okay, I read that like four times and are you asking: "Are there any active hydras that play in more than one game together?"
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Post Post #1053 (isolation #95) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:53 pm

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Yeah, that's a good point. Although generally we shy away from body of work awards anyway. But there's little call for a hydra award.
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Post Post #1080 (isolation #96) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:19 pm

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usually when you introduce a "special" category, it's because otherwise they participants would have a hard time competing in the "open" section. For examples, the LPGA is for women because professional women generally can't hit the ball as far as professional men. Under 18 national soccer teams are for teenagers because adults play better and are more physically able.

You don't generally introduce a special category to further celebrate the people who would already win the open category.
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Post Post #1085 (isolation #97) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:12 am

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On the one hand, that walks us closer to be disproportionate to the actual activity that social games represent. On the other, Kodak Moment for social games seems a very appropriate award. In many ways a better award than best player does.
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Post Post #1086 (isolation #98) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:13 am

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Well, Kodak Moment for Mafia games is awarded to "player or players"
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Post Post #1092 (isolation #99) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:02 am

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correct. I mean, I don't really buy the premise that hydras are so much better (that's not why i tend to dislike them), but if they ARE better and more able to win awards, it doesn't make much sense to create a separate category for them unless they are completely banned from winning other awards.
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Post Post #1132 (isolation #100) » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:19 am

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The problem with BOW scum is that it pushes the award toward those who simply play a TON rather than play particularly well. And that's because of the probability of being scum. If you're judging a BOW award, you likely want at least 5 or so games to judge on. But that means on average your players would need 20 or so games in a year to achieve that scum ratio. We HAVE those people on the site, but they're a minority of the total players (though they make up a significant amount of the player base).

Contrast that to town, where to get 5 or so games on average you only need on average 7 or so games in a year to accomplish.

On the flip side, because scum have fewer players per game, it's far easier to determine individual effort. Even the best town player ultimately works in tandem with the rest of the town and it's only as multiple games go on that the trends really emerge. That's not nearly as necessary for scum, where being one of a handful of people allows an individual to really stand out even in a single game.
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Post Post #1254 (isolation #101) » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:04 pm

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yes, we should. I think 1 or 3 is smart. I don't think there's any reason to stick with my form if you can put together something user friendly that doesn't use it. This way avoids having to scrape as well, right?
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