Mechanics (Gold and Phase System)

[inspiratieloos]

You buy them. Unless you're a blacksmith or something. Or you buy a normal weapon then enchant it/have it enchanted to be stronger.

What's stopping us from just using gold and making all prices 8x higher? Multiple types of money don't do anything. Physically different coins are of course useful for weight concerns, but that's only valid if you use a modern 'money represents a value and not the actual worth of the material' system.

I think the issue is mostly the starting gold and rich/poor divide.

I'd have the mods manually assign gold to every character based on their back story and compensate more phases with less FATE points. I'm already screwing with the game by making an 8 phase character right? And I'm already allowing myself to be completely screwed over by playing a 4 phase one.

Edit:

@mods: Did you consider just using potential? pdf page 36

[inspiratieloos]

'Weightless' money probably works best for game play reasons, otherwise just gold/silver/whatever coins and bonds for large transactions.

The real issue is still the difference between characters that start with different amounts of phases.

[inspiratieloos]

The thing is, if you leave gold to mod discretion (probably the only workable solution) you need to compensate phases with something else. Gold really isn't the problem here, the phase system is.

[inspiratieloos]

First,

Gold really isn't the problem here, the phase system is.

Second, if I go out I might take €50 with me in my wallet, my friend, whose parents are millionaires, also does. However he has on clothes from Armani, while I'm wearing something bought at your average clothes store.
Third, the 8 aspect character still has 16 skills more than the 4 aspect character and now they even have the same amount of gold. (ties back in with the first point)

[inspiratieloos]

So, how do you see it? How should a starting 'lvl4' and a starting 'lvl8' be balanced? FATE is very big on keeping everyone on equal power.

[inspiratieloos]

DN, you really shouldn't just go back to copying the original FATE system and then pretending it was a new idea
5 years a phase works better btw, giving everyone a 20-40 yo character.

Normally after a story arc every player that was a part of it can freely choose 4 skills and is assigned an Aspect by the mod based on what happened. Pace the game so that every character has similar length story arcs. You can just give old as an Aspect and have a player suffer the consequences whenever you want.

[inspiratieloos]

Just make a few phases with a back story but no aspect.

[inspiratieloos]

Potential.

[inspiratieloos]

A 40 yo is not yet so old as to receive penalties, during the game the mod can just assign a age related negative aspects at appropriate times (sooner/later for (un)healthy people).

[inspiratieloos]

Do non-human races age differently than humans btw?

[inspiratieloos]

Not necessarily an old aspect, but something like bad sight (I believe CD's list had some examples). You don't have to give everyone such an Aspect at the same age, a gutter rat would show signs younger than an accomplished mage.

Adding all sorts of modifiers to starting gold makes it way more complex for the mods than just determining it manually, any Skill/Aspect would have some effect on what your character earns.

Basically after every 'story arc' all characters receive an Aspect+choose Skills.

Suppose we say the basic needs of a middle class family cost about 1 gold/day and work from there?
A swordsmith that would earn about 500 gold a year in profits, say he has 2 apprentices that each earn 200 gold/year and they make 100 high quality swords, 50% of the cost is in materials and he also needs money for upkeep in his smithy which is around 1000 gold. A high quality sword would cost about 40 gold. A foundry might make a few thousand average swords in a year bringing the price down to maybe 1/10th of that.
A sword made by the best smith in the city and/or enchanted by a mage might cost 100-200 gold.

[inspiratieloos]

So how does that work with phases? Are all player Elves very young, or do Elves just learn things very slowly?

[inspiratieloos]

I'm pretty sure it's accepted in FATE that characters learn much faster in the game than in their background story. You don't get any more phases, just Aspects.

It's just that, why would an elf take 25 years to learn how to handle a sword while a human can do so in 5?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to put Elves at ~100-120 Dwarves at ~90 Slith 70, Humans 65, Aerin 50, we are talking a medieval setting after all so ages shouldn't be up to our averages (65 is pretty damn old for those times). Aerin already have the Intelligent by default, so you can give them shorter phases.

[inspiratieloos]

Sure, but how heavy is a gold piece? (either weightless gold or paper money works for that)

[inspiratieloos]

(8*4-4*4)/(6-2)=4, I think you're overpowering young characters. I also don't think Fate points are able to compensate for less skills in the long term.
What's the problem with just doing as the rulebook suggests?

Magic does tend to make the average age higher for it's time (better facilities despite not having the technology to do such things without magic).

[inspiratieloos]

Within 4 advancements they'll have equal skills, after that they'll be stronger, this is in addition to not suffering from old age. It's not like the mod can screw you over without being obvious about the fact that he hates you (as long as you're not actively being a dick).

[inspiratieloos]

Within 4 advancements they'll have equal skills, after that they'll be stronger, this is in addition to not suffering from old age. It's not like the mod can screw you over without being obvious about the fact that he hates you (as long as you're not actively being a dick).

Right, young people should have about the same power at 40 as a starting 40 year old.

Advancement is much faster after initial creation, the game will (probably) be over way before the starting age 20 will be that old. On that note, most characters won't even reach an age where they'll have serious problems due to it (except for things like AniX who specifically wants to play a character past their prime).

Furthermore I think we must use Potential. (not Bub's)

[inspiratieloos]

@mods: Did you consider just using potential? pdf page 36

[inspiratieloos]

>8 phase needs to make phases without any aspects/skills. Same as a 8 phase character but with age related problems.
<4 phase some kind of Child of Destiny, born at the stroke of midnight, under the right alignment of planets, from a virgin mother, while a dozen

birds

albino

falcons

velociraptor pilots flew over to the east, uses 6 points of potential in phase 1 to showcase their awesomeness, but in the end is a 15 year old.

Edit: Made it right
Edit2: Made it even better

[inspiratieloos]

You can in the original FATE rules (except for the velocirapors, unless it's possible within the setting). The more than 8 phases isn't in the original rules afaik, but I'm pretty sure you're allowed to make phases longer, which has the same effect.

There are more options of course, you could also play a normal 15 year old (3 aspects) and keep your potential then spend it during the game itself etc. etc.

[inspiratieloos]

Okay, obviously I'm for a 8-phase-5-year-per-phase-with-potential-and-mod-determined-gold system.

[inspiratieloos]

1. Determine income class of the person delivering the good/service.
2. Determine how much money said person earns per year.
3. Determine profit margin person has on good/service.
4. Determine price.

You really need to determine an arbitrary baseline for what a someone earns and work from that, in my example last page I took a journeyman swordsmith who earns 500 gold/year to put the price of a high class sword at 40 gold. Bub pointed out that 500 gold/year makes a single gold piece too valuable to be easily used so the numbers in that example are probably not very useful (the method is imo).

[inspiratieloos]

Correct (if the 4 phaser decides to use all his potential during character creation), the differences are all in the back-story (how did a 20 year old gain the same skills as someone twice his age? Will he be taken seriously? etc.).

This is also where the Fate points/phase comes from, as with an older character you have probably put more thought into the history of your character.

[inspiratieloos]

What Bub proposes makes it very simple to determine wages, then determining product prices from that isn't really a problem.

Suppose we say the basic needs of a middle class family cost about 1 gold/day and work from there?
A swordsmith that would earn about 500 gold a year in profits, say he has 2 apprentices that each earn 200 gold/year and they make 100 high quality swords, 50% of the cost is in materials and he also needs money for upkeep in his smithy which is around 1000 gold. A high quality sword would cost about 40 gold. A foundry might make a few thousand average swords in a year bringing the price down to maybe 1/10th of that.
A sword made by the best smith in the city and/or enchanted by a mage might cost 100-200 gold.

Multiply everything by 65.
Average (foundry) sword -> ~250 gold
High quality sword -> ~2500 gold
Best (mundane) sword money can buy -> ~10,000 gold

Iirc from a documentary a few years ago a high quality katana made by one of the few traditional Japanese swordsmiths left cost around €15,000. Considering the difference in supply/demand I'd say 2500 gold is a decent price.

[inspiratieloos]

Don't like something, propose an alternative. But what's the problem with basing gold value on something (close to) what most people are familiar with?

[inspiratieloos]

Uhm, it's 3 days worth of wages for the average worker, the 2500 gold sword is the type a noble or rich merchant uses, the 10k sword is used by a professional fencer or a showoff.

Pedit: As Bub says the players won't be using average characters, we might not be crazy overpowered like in some games but we're still the heroes.

[inspiratieloos]

I believe that was how it was in the original Amstaad draft. It has problems.

[inspiratieloos]

I know what you mean, it was perfectly explained in the old rules.

The whole 'go down a level on a big purchase' just doesn't work, levels are exponential while money is much more complex.
A noble spends 1/3rd of his wealth on a new mansion, does his wealth move from Great to Good (or Superb to Great)?
If yes, does this mean he can't afford the food he used to yesterday despite having 2/3rd left?
If no, can he buy another, similar sized, mansion tomorrow with his still Great (Superb) wealth. And the day after? And the one after that?

Slight variation that might work:
Everyone has a wealth level and 3 points in it, you can buy anything 2 levels below your level for free (within reason), 1 level below rolls 1 FATE die (d3-2), on a '-' loses a point on '0' or '+' it's 'free' (too insignificant to count), anything your level just costs a point. Whenever you do what you do to make money you gain a points, you can use 5 points to make a purchase 1 level above your wealth. Being at 0 points temporarily reduces your effective level by 1 for 'free' purchases. Significant events can change your level.

[inspiratieloos]

Suppose for someone with normal wealth gains a point by working his job for a week (someone on the high end of normal might get 1 point/3 days, low end 1/14), an average sword has a 'normal' price, you can spend 1 point (a weeks work) to buy that sword. A slightly better sword (made by a smith's apprentice) might have a 'fair' cost, you'd have to work 5 weeks, gain 5 points, buy the sword then live frugally while working for another week.

A nobleman (Great wealth) sees the second sword in a shop, likes the look of it, puts some gold on the counter and takes it with him, with no noticeable difference in the weight of his gold pouch. The noble however, would probably consider such a sword below his station and buy a sword made by the smith himself which is 'good'. He rolls the Fate die (on average spending 1/3rd point of wealth), if he has to pay he'll probably gets 1-2 new points when the taxes on one of his estates comes in.

One of the great merchant lords of the city could probably buy the entire smithy without too much trouble.

@Bub/quadz, first system is slightly easier on the players, second is slightly easier on the mods if I had to guess. Both have advantages/disadvantages. Personally I wouldn't mind either system really.

[inspiratieloos]

There is such a thing as too simple. You have to factor in game balance, mod effort and player effort.

The money system is perfectly balanced (in theory) and easy to play, the mods just have to separately determine the price of every item in the game.
Yaw's system is very easy to both mod/play, but it's just going to cause massive trouble when you actually use it in practice.
The second system I proposed is more complex than the money system, doesn't really differ in playability but is easier to mod.

It really depends on what the people that will actually be modding the game prefer (more work for mods vs. more work for players).

[inspiratieloos]

The money system is geared towards having to buy food. But you can just say "pick up some groceries on the way home" get reduced some gold and don't care one way or another.

The wealth system depends on what value you give food, if you say a week's worth of food takes 'mediocre' wealth the 'normal' wealth characters will have food cut into a small part of their income, 'mediocre' wealth people earn just enough/slightly more than necessary to survive 'fair' and higher don't have to think about the cost of food at all (unless they're buying luxury foods) and 'poor' and lower will have to actively get food from somewhere.

[inspiratieloos]

Isn't money quite easy to mod? Also, money is just more fun to me than the mystical "wealth levels" that we are now talking about.

Well for every item that is on the expensive side there are technically hundreds of possible prizes to give it, this goes for every item in the game. Would you like to give the answer to the question: "What can I get here and how much does it cost?"
I'm not the one that has to do it, so I don't think that I should say that money will be better because I can use it more easily as a player.

[inspiratieloos]

We really need to get one of the people that are actually going to run this (DN) in here to make a decision. The chosen system can then be worked out further, that should only take a few days.

[inspiratieloos]

I'm pretty sure that's treated as an Aspect, anyway what we have now is basically the same thing.