Mini 352- Saints and Sinners Mafia - Abandoned

[Kelly Chen]

Pre-emptive

vote: Pie

for trying to out the doc.

[Kelly Chen]

If we were able to double lynch every day, I'd say we should use it every day.

A problem with saving the double lynch for late in the game, is that the bishop could die before then.

[Kelly Chen]

Haha~ i don't think that can be called "proved random" since we don't know if the dice thing was true to begine with **LOL

Anyways.

No random vote from me but hi to everyone. About the double lynching possibility, i'd say we start playing the 1-lynch game normally, and when someone sees need of a double lynch, we can debate over that then. But of course Bishop holds the final decision.

tokiyoh... Are you scum again ?? That's rough.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm scared to vote tokiyoh because he might go into hiding or something.

His secret is safe with me.


@alko : Sorry, I got tired of the old avatar. Maybe I'll go back to it someday.

[Kelly Chen]

If we all vote him, he may be too frightened of us to participate. Then he'll never get lynched... He has to give us more rope to work with.

I will observe this bandwagon as a neutral party. If tokiyoh asks, I will provide him with fake claims. But we can totally lynch him if that happens.

[Kelly Chen]

So you're saying your role in this game isn't one of the scum roles that "have to find their way to [you] during this time"?

Also, are you saying you've been lurking already??

[Kelly Chen]

(Or do it when we have 3 alive, double lynch FTW!)

Heh...well, no, that dosn't work. Because by the time you'd get a chance for the second lynch, there'd only be two people left alive, and one would be scum.

lol, ya it was a joke. I was just wondering what it would be like if we had two players left and it was technically day. Imagine the conversation.

Yosarian was in this situation at the end of Civilization Mafia. They had to vote No Lynch.

I have no idea why the game needed to continue, though... Me and Yos should have won right there...

Also, he shouldn't get scared if he gets a lot of votes, he just needs to be honest, work his way out of it. I can understand if he's just 'that kind of person,' but he shouldn't get scared, so hopefully that won't happen.

Your confidence in tokiyoh is inspiring.

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly, I didn't understand your mention of 'providing fake roleclaims' or whatever. If your willing to explain (I'm guessing some joke) could you?

Yes, could you?


I'm sticking to the toki wagon for now, but could return to my Kelly vote. I'm not sure if she's pro-town and being silly or scum trying to spin a ridiculous amount of WIFOM early on.

What's the WIFOM?

I suggest that people not be suspicious of me offering fake claims to the scum. Especially in an open setup. It's quite harmless and could even catch somebody.

I don't mind the wagon actually,

since Ibby started it, and

as far as i can recall, i've been scum in the past i-don't-know-how-many games that i played with Ibby. What i don't quite understand is Kelly's interest in me. I'm sorry but.. do we know each other

that

well? o___O (<<-- or are you someone i know under a different name??)

You mean well enough to know your alignment already?

I read your first post and just assumed... You joked about random voting, declined to vote anyone, and sort of echoed what mikanoff had said about the double lynch:

Haha~ i don't think that can be called "proved random" since we don't know if the dice thing was true to begine with **LOL

Anyways.

No random vote from me but hi to everyone. About the double lynching possibility, i'd say we start playing the 1-lynch game normally, and when someone sees need of a double lynch, we can debate over that then. But of course Bishop holds the final decision.

Yes, but using this ability first day, I think is too hasty. I think we should save the double-lynch for second day. Then, we will lynch with more accuracy.
Anyway, the bishop will be who finally decides when he uses his abilities xD

[Kelly Chen]

This isn't too different from my scumchat play, is it?

[Kelly Chen]

I got Ibby, alko, Bacde, and Pie on tokiyoh.

unvote

[Kelly Chen]

Don't worry about me, I'm not even voting you.

[Kelly Chen]

Holy crap, I was just going to vote for him, too.

[Kelly Chen]

I didn't think it was pointless...

Is a nonny wagon better than an MOS wagon?

[Kelly Chen]

I didn't think it was pointless...

...but you're not on it, either. I've got to say your behavior hasn't made much sense to me so far this game.

I think it's pretty clear I had no problem with this bandwagon.

I don't think tokiyoh's responses have been that great. He's a bit defensive.

I'm a little concerned that I've made myself an easy target. I think I've been helpful, though.

Ibby, you should be like me and

vote: MOS

if you want off of tokiyoh. MOS is supposed to have told us who the scum are by now.

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly: Why would I want to be like you when I don't trust you at all and find you the most suspicious right now? And as far as you being an easy target, don't kid yourself. You're not some newbie making newbie mistakes. You're experienced, and open set-ups are your favorite type of game. If anything you'd be a difficult target. If you feel that you're an easy target, please explain why.

I'm not making any mistakes IIRC. It looks like it's easy to say that being "weird" makes me suspicious. Surprising, since there are a lot of scumchatters here.

Also, if anything, toki strikes me as underdefensive. When someone is run up, obviously they're going to defend themselves to the best of their ability. I felt he took it in stride and has answered points against him rather well. Including the one where you state that he was echoing mikanoff when he really wasn't. That was a misrepresentation by you.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Oh and one more thing. When someone his fine with a wagon and actually contributes towards pointing out why someone might be scum, as you did, but doesn't put their vote where their mouth is, I find -that- suspicious.

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

[Kelly Chen]

I'm not making any mistakes IIRC. It looks like it's easy to say that being "weird" makes me suspicious. Surprising, since there are a lot of scumchatters here.

You are acting

openly

strange. I already said what I think of this. And the fact that you say that it makes you an easy target is ridiculous. You are the one with the behavior, therefore people are going to react to it.

Hopefully the scum will. I don't see the contradiction above, I'm an easy target am I not? I have like three votes right now for being weird.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Nice way to attempt to twist my intent. I stated clearly why I was happy with wagonning him first and it had nothing to do with your observation of him. It had more to do with me thinking about it after you voted him and deciding it was a good place to start the day based on my past experiences with him.

Oh...

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

Yes, exactly. What IS your agenda, and why do you have one? The fact that I have found myself consistently asking myself why you are doing and saying the things you are lends itself towards my belief that you are attempting to spin WIFOM early on as I've already stated and explained.

Very happy with my vote.

I have a town agenda. Don't you think I helped to get interesting responses out of tokiyoh?

I don't really get your WIFOM concern. I could embrace any kind of behavior and still make you wonder if I might be scum.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm trying to have a good time.

Especially at the beginning of the game, when nothing is going down...

[Kelly Chen]

...

I still don't get it. If you really thought tokiyoh's reaction was over-defensive and suspicious, why weren't you voting for him? Why aren't you voting for him now? Why push the bandwagon but not join it on day 1? And why support another bandwagon now? Why MOS, anyway?

1. It makes no difference, I could easily have been voting him
2. I didn't think his responses were terrible, even if I don't agree with ibaesha's characterization of his responses as under-defensive.
3. It makes no difference
4. Why not? A lot of people aren't talking. We can't very well lynch someone until this gets fixed.
5. Due to your move from MOS to nonny, attached to a criticism of the tokiyoh bandwagon. Are MOS and nonny that different? I was a little skeptical.

[Kelly Chen]

but she did post right after the vote count saying she was about to vote him, but he had what? 5 votes?

This was referring to MOS, not tokiyoh. The mod deleted a post saying that MOS was replaced.

[Kelly Chen]

unvote MOS, vote nonny

I guess Pie's saying it's noteworthy if you start being strange later in the game.

[Kelly Chen]

If we were able to double lynch every day, I'd say we should use it every day.

That would make this game quicker then it needs to be and probally leave us with a huge lack of townies no way we would get that lucky in the begining

No, it would slow the game down to have more deaths due to lynches than nightkills. Better for us to try killing people than to let mafia make their informed kills, yeah?

It wouldn't be wise to save it that late, and I don't remeber but i'm willing to bet we have a doc.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a little curious about the responses related to the setup in this post of nonny's. It looks a bit like filler to me (as it did in tokiyoh's first post), esp. as nonny doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the setup.

I will observe this bandwagon as a neutral party. If tokiyoh asks, I will provide him with fake claims. But we can totally lynch him if that happens.

First of all it's not that neutral to give fake claims or to interagte if you don't care either way. And fake claims? it's an open set up why would he need your help? and why on earth would you offer?

It is a trap. It's like good cop / bad cop. You guys hammer on tokiyoh, I win over his trust, he hits me up for a fake claim, we nab him. Good job making me spell it out, I'm sure tokiyoh is reading this. I seriously doubt he'll fall for it now.

So you're saying your role in this game isn't one of the scum roles that "have to find their way to [you] during this time"?

...are you claiming something? Or could you explain this it's a bit confusing...maybe it's just me

I'm not claiming anything, this is a response to tokiyoh's strange statement:

Well i guess i have been lurking quite a bit lately - and coincidentally scum roles have to find their way to me during this time (LOL). But the truth is lurking actually has nothing to do with my role. I've lowered my number of games down to 1 mini only, if that's considered useful information in any way.

@kelly....don't defend your self with scumchatting (post 79), they are completly different and just because there aren't that many scum chatters in this game (which is a lie because about 2/3's of us go there) doesn't mean you can defend your play style with that. That's like trying to get someone to testify on your behalf...but no one will and you are like "oh they must be out of town". Plus i've never seen you play in scum chat..you are almost never there.

I

said

there were lots of scumchatters in this game.

On average I'm on scumchat maybe every other day. I've played with Alko, MOS, Pie, ibaesha, and probably Bacde. I don't have to look for someone to testify on my behalf, because I would think Ibby herself would be up for that. I'm surprised that she's voting me.

For now that is all I have to say and the only person i can see worth a vote is kelly so

UNVOTE, VOTE KELLY FoS Pie

Not sure if I think nonny is likely to be scum. I haven't played with her before.

[Kelly Chen]

It's not a recap, it's hypothetical.

[Kelly Chen]

I personally think that the strange things about Kelly is her acting towards tokiyoh, I still don't understand about the fake role claims, she actually supported the idea of using a double lynch ability, every single day, and she justifies her behavior by claiming she wants to have fun during the easy going day 1.

If it were possible to use the double lynch every day, the ONLY reason not to do so would be to get more cop investigations.

What on earth would we gain by letting mafia make MORE of the kills?

That would make this game quicker then it needs to be and probally leave us with a huge lack of townies no way we would get that lucky in the begining

No, it would slow the game down to have more deaths due to lynches than nightkills. Better for us to try killing people than to let mafia make their informed kills, yeah?

How on earth would two lynches a day plus a nightkill slow the game down? That would lead us into less players quickier which imho is never good.

No it wouldn't. We would discuss each lynch. Discussing and making a lynch takes a lot more time than a night phase. It gives us more information, too.

Someone needs to back me up on this. I can't believe this is controversial.

First of all it's not that neutral to give fake claims or to interagte if you don't care either way. And fake claims? it's an open set up why would he need your help? and why on earth would you offer?

It is a trap. It's like good cop / bad cop. You guys hammer on tokiyoh, I win over his trust, he hits me up for a fake claim, we nab him. Good job making me spell it out, I'm sure tokiyoh is reading this. I seriously doubt he'll fall for it now.

You relize that makes no sense, How would you give him said claim after he has already been hammered? And how would you give it to him in the thread with out everyone noticing? Unless you have some night talking to the dead so they can claim the next day ability o.0

1. by "hammer on" I just mean "attack"
2. I wouldn't, that's the point

On average I'm on scumchat maybe every other day. I've played with Alko, MOS, Pie, ibaesha, and probably Bacde. I don't have to look for someone to testify on my behalf, because I would think Ibby herself would be up for that. I'm surprised that she's voting me.

I'm not surprised considering she gave her reason as to the vote. And I'm in there almost everyday and I've never seen you play a game, so I some how doubt you are in there as much as you say....even though that has nothing to do with this game in truth

We must be on at different times. I hardly ever see you either.

@Ibaesha:

Good thing I'm already voting for Kelly. I find this statment to be completely scummy.

No idea what's scummy about it.

[Kelly Chen]

If tokiyoh asks me for a fake claim, the deal is still on. Otherwise it's a joke.

Just because it's a joke doesn't mean I'm not going to clarify what it says. I will gladly spend pages and pages answering questions about the literal meaning of what I said.

[Kelly Chen]

So which is it? Trap or joke? I don't see how any player would fall for such a 'trap' anyway. I did read your post 127. So just clarify for me, when you made the original post about fakeclaims way back, was it meant to be a trap or joke at that point?

It was both.

I approve of the yellowbounder bandwagon. I'd like to hear more from this fellow.

unvote nonny, vote: yellowbounder

LYNCH -2 AND COUNTING !!

[Kelly Chen]

Voting or not voting, I just can't win.

Personally I don't think lynch -2 is too dangerous. I even pointed out it was lynch -2.

[Kelly Chen]

Where is our suspect yellowbounder ?

[Kelly Chen]

She's even gone on to say it was a joke, but then not really a joke, which is the sort of backtracking that shouldn't be ignored.

I didn't say it wasn't really a joke.

I think people are WIFOMing themselves out of believing she's scum for it, which is exactly what I stated earlier. She stood on the sidelines of the toki wagon, pushing it, but not committing to it herself. Then she turned around and hopped onto the next big wagon that came along and hasn't contributed much of anything otherwise.

I think I've contributed about as much as anyone else.

It strikes me that you're putting a lot of effort into making me sound as bad as possible.

[Kelly Chen]

I don't think it matters how quick if it's just for pressure. If he'd been lynched by now, then yeah, that was way too quick.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm pretty ok with yellowbounder's response actually.

unvote, vote: ibaesha

[Kelly Chen]

Er... I thought Patrick's #156 was yellowbounder.

Scratch that last post. I'll keep the ibaesha vote however.

Patrick, I really doubt anyone else wants to vote ibaesha at the moment.

[Kelly Chen]

It just looks like OMGUS to me Kelly. Can you point me to something suspicious Ibby has done?

I have the impression that ibaesha is interested in finding reasons for me to be scum, and not so interested in whether I am.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Nice way to attempt to twist my intent. I stated clearly why I was happy with wagonning him first and it had nothing to do with your observation of him. It had more to do with me thinking about it after you voted him and deciding it was a good place to start the day based on my past experiences with him.

Does it seem like I attempted to "twist ibaesha's intent"?

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

Yes, exactly. What IS your agenda, and why do you have one? The fact that I have found myself consistently asking myself why you are doing and saying the things you are lends itself towards my belief that you are attempting to spin WIFOM early on as I've already stated and explained.

Very happy with my vote.

Jumping on the word "agenda." Obviously we all have an agenda.

The reason it's suspicious to not vote for someone you claim to suspect, is that it may seem you're defending them while not trying to appear to. That's why I ask what sinister agenda is behind my not voting for tokiyoh. If there isn't any, then this seems to me to just be an easy reason to suspect someone.

It is a trap. It's like good cop / bad cop. You guys hammer on tokiyoh, I win over his trust, he hits me up for a fake claim, we nab him. Good job making me spell it out, I'm sure tokiyoh is reading this. I seriously doubt he'll fall for it now.

Good thing I'm already voting for Kelly. I find this statment to be completely scummy.

Still didn't hear what was scummy about this.

I'm committed to my belief that Kelly is scum.

Wow. I don't have such strong feelings about anyone at the moment.

I've already stated why. Everyone can ignore it or brush it off if they like, but I'm not going to. Kelly behaved strangely. Yes, it could've been dismissed as a joke at first, but she continued on that course. She's even gone on to say it was a joke, but then not really a joke, which is the sort of backtracking that shouldn't be ignored. I think people are WIFOMing themselves out of believing she's scum for it, which is exactly what I stated earlier.

She wants to nail me for behaving strangely, and backtracking on making a joke (which I didn't; she's committed to interpreting me uncharitably). She thinks "people are WIFOMing themselves out of believing she's scum for it". I can see how being strange invites some WIFOM, but is it an outright scum tell?

She stood on the sidelines of the toki wagon, pushing it, but not committing to it herself. Then she turned around and hopped onto the next big wagon that came along and hasn't contributed much of anything otherwise.

I don't have to say that there's a lot of spin here. I didn't vote tokiyoh, so ibaesha says I "stood on the sidelines".

It seems pretty gratuitous to say that I, of the 12 people here, haven't "contributed much of anything otherwise."

Also, while all this is going on, mikanoff and Patrick are sitting off to the sidelines not bothering to do a thing. That is noted as well.

This comment is weird. I have no idea what motivated it. mikanoff was voting me, and had said he didn't like my 5th vote on yellowbounder. Patrick last said he wanted to hear from yellowbounder, also, and asked me the "trap or joke" question. What more did ibaesha want from them?

I would guess that this comment is meant to be a token reference to a scum partner, assuming ibaesha is scum. I'm not sure which of mikanoff and Patrick is more likely to be scum atm.

Patrick, when you said you're sure I think a few people here would be happy to vote for Ibby, was this a joke?

My bad. First it was a joke, then it was a trap.

I don't understand this, but I wasn't going to ask.

Yos: I do find you suspicious, if not hypocritical, for your recent behavior. You are attacking Yellow on the basis of his reasoning not being original enough and parrotting others yet you are ignoring those who did the same thing in regards to the Yellow wagon. Yes, it's nice when people agree with you, but that doesn't mean they're not scum. If one scumtell is sufficient to use for your vote, certainly the same scumtell shouldn't be dismissed when applied to others. Yet you are.

My perspective here is that Yellow is a fairly inexperienced player who has been run up by 5 (very) experienced players based on ONE reason. And that one reason is a 'scumtell' that four of those experienced players are essentially guilty of themselves. I find the wagon to be weakly founded at best and opportunistic and possibly scum-propelled at worst.

I'm not that suspicious of ibaesha's characterization of the yellowbounder bandwagon. I don't agree with it much, but it could be genuine.

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly, why would you imagine my post 156 was written by yellowbounder? I mean look at the number of times I say yellowbounder's name in that post. Ppl just don't refer to themselves in that way. So I suppose the question still stands - why a sudden change of heart about yellowbounder?

There is no change of heart about yellowbounder.

I was passing through, didn't read 156 so much as remember it, and was interested in moving my vote to ibaesha.

Your comment about fake claims: I don't easily see how it can be a trap and a joke at the same time. If you're joking then you're not seriously trying to fool anyone with it. So if it was a joke I don't know why you defended it as a method of catching scum. If it was a serious trap then it was pretty much no good at all. Nobody was going to fall for it.

I've already said

If tokiyoh asks me for a fake claim, the deal is still on. Otherwise it's a joke.

Just because it's a joke doesn't mean I'm not going to clarify what it says. I will gladly spend pages and pages answering questions about the literal meaning of what I said.

This answers your question, doesn't it?

[Kelly Chen]

I didn't ask about literal meaning.

I didn't say you did. You're suggesting I "defended it as a method of catching scum."

Why would you think toki would ask you for a fakeclaim?

How many times do I have to answer this question?

By observing the bandwagon neutrally, I might win over tokiyoh's trust as he came under fire. He might then feel safe in asking me for a fake claim, seeing as I specifically offered to provide one.

Also, it was a joke.


For the sake of discussion, here's my suspicion ranking at the moment:
1. yellowbounder, ibaesha
2. mikanoff, nonny, Patrick, Pie_is_Good
3. Yosarian2, Mastermind of Sin, tokiyoh
4. al_kohaulec, Bacde

I just understood something tokiyoh said early in response to his bandwagon:

I will observe this bandwagon as a neutral party. If tokiyoh asks, I will provide him with fake claims. But we can totally lynch him if that happens.

..Hold on, WHAT? I don't understand - i mean do i ask for claims a lot?! o___O (<<-- please note this is a startled face)

At first I took this as panicky and senseless, but it really seems he thought I was saying I'd make up a fake claim

for myself

if he asked for it. This lowers my suspicion of his response quite a bit.

[Kelly Chen]

So yeah just for the sake of discussion kelly, why do you find mikanoff or me or nonny more suspicious than say Bacde.

Quick answer to this.

The main thing here is that I have a positive feeling about Bacde. I could be wrong, but for now, assuming he doesn't start lurking, I like him.

You other three are simply in my "above average suspicion" category. I suppose that since we've seen some conflict, it's inevitable that I suspect you more.

Patrick: My feeling about you isn't too bad really. Though I've had some trouble taking your recent "trap or joke" questions as genuine. It has seemed to me that my position was clear at the time you started asking.

mikanoff: He could well be an easy target. I'm on the fence on him. I do like how he keeps posting content even though he's not moving his vote.

nonny: Lurking. Her posts look highly scummy to me, but this is the first game I've played with her. Pretty defensive I think. Other people in this game probably can read her better.

[Kelly Chen]

The main thing here is that I have a positive feeling about Bacde. I could be wrong, but for now, assuming he doesn't start lurking, I like him.

Bacde is lurking. I don't see how you can call nonny out for this and not Bacde.

Oh really? Bacde hadn't posted in 3 or 4 days. nonny hadn't posted in like 10. I like Bacde's contributions, even if he doesn't say that much at a time. nonny hasn't done much of anything other than get defensive, and attack me (one and the same I imagine).

Hey nonny, why are you voting me again? Looking at your posts it isn't clear to me.

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly I have pointed out plenty of reasons, if you are confused that isn't my fault.

Believe it or not, I checked, and you were mostly arguing with me about stuff like this:

@kelly....don't defend your self with scumchatting (post 79), they are completly different and just because there aren't that many scum chatters in this game (which is a lie because about 2/3's of us go there) doesn't mean you can defend your play style with that. That's like trying to get someone to testify on your behalf...but no one will and you are like "oh they must be out of town". Plus i've never seen you play in scum chat..you are almost never there.

Main reason I don't see any of your actions as beneficial to the town.

Posting is beneficial to the town...

Bacde's contributions are few and far between. Like I said he just seems to go along with the currents of the game. He has hardly added anything.

I don't agree. He hasn't voted me. He's poked at Yosarian and ibaesha. Now he's said Yosarian is completely off his suspicion list due to his case against yellowbounder. Now he's unvoted yellowbounder. This is useful information. It would be nice if he'd go into more detail, sure.

[Kelly Chen]

I would also be willing to go for Toki at this point. I'm not liking the yellow-toki connection here.

I can't see yellowbounder and tokiyoh both being scum. tokiyoh could be scum trying to look town by defending a newbie by getting into it with Yosarian... But it doesn't look very effective to me. I don't think that's what was happening.

[Kelly Chen]

Well, someone could say "I don't believe that desperate, last-minute claim. Vote: Guy with power role."

The thing for me is that Pie is known for liking to get all the claims out.

I believe he thinks e.g. that a doctor in a newbie game should claim D1.

[Kelly Chen]

Lastly in response to Kelly, 211: i'm not accusing you of not being original, but i just feel funny because that's almost exactly what i said about Yos earlier ="=

Er... Which post of yours are you thinking of?

[Kelly Chen]

My bet is that ibaesha is scum. No joke.

[Kelly Chen]

Well, I think we could use some prods.

Presently I'd lynch ibaesha, yellowbounder, or (with less ease) nonny.

[Kelly Chen]

In addition, it includes the joke/trap comment that some of you are willing to dismiss, but I'm not. Her speculation that toki would be trapped by something like this is just silly. But she's covering up such silliness by saying it was a joke at the same time.

But what if the silliness was deliberate? That's a joke, isn't it?

It is a trap. It's like good cop / bad cop. You guys hammer on tokiyoh, I win over his trust, he hits me up for a fake claim, we nab him. Good job making me spell it out, I'm sure tokiyoh is reading this. I seriously doubt he'll fall for it now.

I said it was scummy. I never clarified why so I will now. In an open setup, I think that this kind of 'trap' is ridiculous. I also don't see how it would even work. Toki is just not that freakin' stupid. I don't know if anyone is dumb enough to fall for it in fact. It seems completely false and I can't believe that Kelly (who is pretty smart herself) would actually have faith that she'd gain anything by laying such a trap.

Ergo...

If tokiyoh asks me for a fake claim, the deal is still on. Otherwise it's a joke.

Just because it's a joke doesn't mean I'm not going to clarify what it says. I will gladly spend pages and pages answering questions about the literal meaning of what I said.

Okay so it's a joke. But it's a trap. A crappy trap. And all I see is her attempting to cover up by saying it's a joke.

Or maybe it was a joke...?

She never really cites why she thinks I'm scum, just that she thinks it. I've re-read the entire post where she explains her suspicions of me but the only thing I can really see is:

I have the impression that ibaesha is interested in finding reasons for me to be scum, and not so interested in whether I am.

The purpose of that post (177) was to explain the above impression.

Anyways, I have come to a theory about Kelly after all of this. I will grant that she may not be a Sinner. In fact, that's the way I'm leaning. I'm thinking more that she is the Devil. I think the weirdness that she showed early on could've very much been hinting at this.

I'm not sure whether you get townie points for this. It's an interesting idea, and it's probably not wise to suggest "I'll help out scum if they need it" in a setup with a devil susceptible to nightkills.

But it seems quite clear to me that this kind of obvious hinting on D1 would be foolish for the devil. The risk of the devil being lynched over such behavior is surely greater than the risk of him being nightkilled N1 if the scum haven't identified him.

I have a counter-theory

: You've thought that I was hinting at being the devil for quite some time, because you're scum and finding the devil is important to you. If true, you would have quickly been irritated with me for dropping hints that early. That would explain why you're so distressed over me being "silly," and why you're not afraid of pushing my lynch.

Alko voted for Kelly, but unvoted later because he changed his mind.
Yosarian pressued Kelly quite a bit, but rather than voting her, he went after Yellowbounder.
Bacde avoided the situation almost entirely, but not sure what that means. He hasn't posted in 12 days.
MoS thought Kelly wasn't strange at all (compared to usual) and was happy to jump on the Yellow wagon.
Pie thought Kelly's wagon was 'easy' but was happy to vote Yellow whose wagon looked pretty damn opportunistic to me.

Going with my theory that Kelly is the Devil, I would imagine there to be Sinners among the above group. Especially if they caught onto the strange behavior that could be actual hints.

This part might be true anyway. The scum would only need to think that I'm hinting at being the devil.

[Kelly Chen]

That's a good point. If the devil is getting away with obvious hinting, the mafia should just run with it.

[Kelly Chen]

It's only WIFOMish if she guesses the devil won't be useful.

I'm not really buying Kelly's counter theory. I don't see what Ibby has done to make it more likely that she's a [sinner looking for the] devil than anyone else. Alot of ppl are voting Kelly, even if they are less vocal in their arguments.

But those people never suggested I might be the devil and considered voting patterns with that theory in mind.

Do you still intend to be voting for me, Patrick?

[Kelly Chen]

Ibby may or may not be scum, but the argument that "perhaps she's voting Kelly because she figured out Kelly was the devil" dosn't make any sense at all.

Well, it doesn't seem to make sense now that she's brought it up. But I could see scum voting for someone they thought was too obviously hinting at being the devil.

[Kelly Chen]

Pie, it isn't enough necessarily. They have to weigh the cost of losing the devil.

[Kelly Chen]

unvote, vote: yellowbounder

Is Ibby still scum? Ehhhh... maybe.

[Kelly Chen]

Also, didn't the wagon on him die down for a while, then restart? I understand the first incarnation of the agon was about that post, but the revival of it was about yellowbounders incredible lurking, which I can promise I will not repeat. If I recall correctly, yellowbounder defended himself and he was unvoted... isn't this more about his lurking now?

I don't think it died down and then restarted. I just got off and then got back on. In the meantime votes weren't moving too much. I wouldn't say his lurking is what made me vote him again, though it doesn't make him look good or anything.

I have no problem giving you a chance.

unvote ubertimmy, vote: nonny

[Kelly Chen]

Why do you two want the claim? Do you think he's a good lynch unless he claims a power role?

[Kelly Chen]

Same question to you then, Patrick. Do you feel I should be lynched if I'm just a townie? If not necessarily, I don't think it's wise to ask.

This deadline could change things, but I don't feel like I'm in danger of being lynched. No one but ibaesha seems too insistent that I'm scum. You other three (nonny, mikanoff, Patrick) are just holding your votes without much comment. I'll be surprised if the town finds there's no better option than to go with you guys.

All things being equal I think there are several lynches that would be less harmful than mine.

[Kelly Chen]

@Yos: Because I check in here enough that you should be able to figure out my alignment from what I say and how I vote. Maybe not yet, but I think it's clear I'm trying to be helpful.

In contrast you have someone like the person I am voting for, who lurks and only comments on one player. Unless she claims a power role, you might have to lynch her at some point anyway, just because I doubt her actions will add up to a strong case in her favor.

I'm not necessarily saying lynch nonny, but definitely lynch her before me.


@mikanoff: You're right, it would be fair to guess that you still mean to be voting for me.

[Kelly Chen]

Noting in passing that scum who are on the rack often go after lurkers.

Great, but I voted nonny before the deadline was announced. If I thought I was on the rack then, don't you think I would've stayed on yellowbounder the whole time I was the leading bandwagon?

[Kelly Chen]

I don't know Kelly. You pushed against yellowbounder for a long time then when ubertimmy replaced you suddenly switch to nonny who isn't participating because of her house move/new job etc.

Your attitude towards nonny seems generous.

I am somewhat suspicious of Pie and MoS for still wanting a claim from ubertimmy, prior to there being a deadline. Again, I don't see the use in this unless a townie claim means he gets lynched. I think it would be unwise to lynch ubertimmy before he has a chance to prove himself.

Personally I would rather replace than lynch someone like that. Lynching nonny seems to be no better than a stab in the dark.

A stab in the dark is better than lynching me due to a deadline.

Why the switch vote to nonny when you seem so sure Ibby is scum?

1. ibby's case that I'm the devil has made me a little uncertain about her
2. ibby doesn't appear lynchable anyway, so I decided to try a vote on nonny.

The deadline is not relevant to this. What I am suggesting is that scum go after lurkers/non participants because they make easy targets, and they don't fight back as much.

It's relevant because you said scum "on the rack" do this. Have I been "on the rack" the whole time I've been the leading bandwagon?

[Kelly Chen]

unvote

Not much. Time to reread I guess.

[Kelly Chen]

I especally don't like the random "some people are less valuable then me" line, which although she denied it and just explained she thought she was more valuable then a lurker, it felt to me like she was trying to hint at having a power role to scare off people who might want to vote her.

That's not what I said though. I said "All things being equal I think there are several lynches that would be less harmful than mine." If that was supposed to be a hint, I think I would have responded to you differently when you asked what I meant. If I were scum, why should I take back a hint just because someone asked about it?

For now I'm going to

vote: ubertimmy

again as I think this is at least the best move for me to survive. I dislike not giving him a chance, but I think he's a decent D1 lynch.

[Kelly Chen]

I don't know; it was just an odd wording, and it caught my attention, as it just dosn't seem like something a good guy; if you were a townie, you would know there are at least 4 lynches "less harmful" then yours, the 4 bad guys, right?

But I don't know who those four people are. That's why I said "all things being equal," i.e., if we all had the same role.

You later said you were trying to imply that lynching a lurker would be "less harmful" then lynching you. Well, that's probably true if you are town (if the lurker is not a power-role, anyway), and it's clearly false if you're scum.

I'm not asking you to be a fortune teller. I'm saying I'm probably more likely to be able to convince you of my alignment, one way or the other, than a lurker who doesn't comment on many topics.

Ubertimmy is yellowbounder, and anyone who acts otherwise (as though yellowbounder's scumminess doesn't carry over)(read: Kelly) is acting scummy. And as for the claim, if we're going to lynch him anyways, what could the claim possibly hurt? At the worst, we lynch him anyways, and at best his role is confirmable.

Were

we going to lynch him anyway? I think that would be really stupid, especially as we didn't have a deadline. I don't see why ubertimmy shouldn't have been given a shot.

[Kelly Chen]

On kaebamf... I feel like he should have contributed by now, which makes me suspicious of both his alignment and his utility to the town. Good enough for a deadline vote, perhaps. On the other hand I wasn't very suspicious of Bacde.

[Kelly Chen]

Were

we going to lynch him anyway? I think that would be really stupid, especially as we didn't have a deadline. I don't see why ubertimmy shouldn't have been given a shot.

Were we going to lynch him? That completely depends on the claim he was about to give.

Why don't you just say "yes"? That's what I was asking. The reason I asked is because I don't agree at all that a townie claim should've meant he gets lynched. If he hadn't been replaced, maybe, sure. But with a replacement and without a deadline, why the rush?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but it sounds like you're saying we should never lynch unless we're under deadline.

I don't think I'm going to bother answering this.

You don't see any reason why ubertimmy shouldn't have been given a shot? Two things about this:

-I find it interesting that you talk in the past tense.

It's not really that interesting because WE HAVE A DEADLINE NOW so things may be different.

-I don't see any reason why ubertimmy

should

be given a shot. You act like he's a completely different character than the guy he replaced. It's not like scumminess resets just because someone was inactive for awhile.

That's true, but there's a possibility that he could've proven himself town with enough time, whereas yellowbounder was not likely to.

I think this is moot now. ubertimmy's silence lately makes me feel less bad about settling on him as the lynch.

[Kelly Chen]

This is surreal, huh kelly? You don't want to lynch me, but you're voting me anyway because it helps you survive?

I'm happy with my vote on kaebamf, although I'm willing to lynch kelly too. She's defending me while voting me, and seems extremely keen to stay alive, which I find is often a scumtell. kaebamf hasn't posted besides his "hello!" I think he'd be a great lynch, as I think he's scum. Maybe he's scum with pie, and that's why pie won't discuss him at all.

I don't know that I'm defending you so much as criticizing Pie.

As far as kaebamf, I'll move my vote to anyone if it would keep me alive. From my position you're all more likely to be scum than I am.

[Kelly Chen]

Sep 6 7pm Eastern.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm a townie.

unvote, vote: kae/Bacde

That's all I've got. I don't find reassuring that kae hasn't posted. Bacde has fooled me in the past, as well.

If kae were posting at all, my gut says ubertimmy is the better bet. But it looks like I can't win that contest.

[Kelly Chen]

Well, that's interesting.

Seeing as we're coming up on a deadline, I suppose you'd have to elaborate a little to get people to join you there.

[Kelly Chen]

Patrick, if you think we should do something else, what is it specifically?

It seems like getting a claim out of kae would be a good reason to ask for an extension. The deadline is tomorrow evening I believe.

I can't say what's up with kae, but Bacde's participation wasn't that consistent either.

[Kelly Chen]

The reason I asked is because I don't agree at all that a townie claim should've meant he gets lynched.

I never said that.

Yes you did:

Were we going to lynch him? That completely depends on the claim he was about to give.

What do you say this means?

Sure -- but you need to remember,

scumminess carries over

. I'd like to put pressure on the person I find scummiest - which at that time, through no fault of his own, was Ubertimmy.

Asking for a claim in an open setup is not applying pressure. Claiming is straightforward for scum. All this "pressure" does is risk exposing power roles prematurely.

Please get your story straight as to whether you were "putting pressure" on ubertimmy, or were really ready to lynch him if he claimed townie.

While the reasons seem to point to Kelly from my standpoint, my gut is telling me ubertimmy. While his initial response was fine, his reactions after that response haven't been sitting well.

You seem to think I don't realize that ubertimmy is yellowbounder. From where I'm sitting it seems that you and perhaps MoS were a bit quick to hope to finish ubertimmy off just as he got in.

Plus you're either lying or not paying any attention.

Serious will-be-a-vote-tomorrow FOS: Pie

.

[Kelly Chen]

I recommend that the lynch be

vetoed

. I think he's almost certainly a townie, and we could go into tomorrow with 11 alive. (Though if we lynch him and he's scum, it would prove to me that scum received safe claims.)

I think he's asking for a modkill though.

at not posting in a week because you weren't getting emails.

[Kelly Chen]

vote: Pie

Is voting me the best you've got, MBF?

[Kelly Chen]

Interesting... I really don't think ibaesha made a mistake there...

[Kelly Chen]

So you think kaebamf just came up with that flavor out of thin air? I don't believe it.

Maybe

that claim was provided as a fake claim, but it would still be in his role PM. I think the mod was just being generous.

I can't take kaebamf's failure to be modkilled to be a hint that he's scum.

[Kelly Chen]

Why is it so surprising that he should come out with that flavour in his claim?

I'm not getting into that... No need to help scum preparing to make a townie claim...

I'll say that

unless

that was safe claim flavor, I don't see much possibility that kaebamf invented it.

If it was safe claim flavor, then on second thought it might be possible that he wasn't modkilled because people like myself would consider it a good claim. But I don't believe we should lynch him just because this is a possibility. We voted to lynch kaebamf out of last-minute desperation, I would say, not because he was an especially good lynch.

If we lynch kaebamf and he's scum, then we would learn that townie claims can't be proven. That would be nice.

If we lynch kaebamf and he's town, we don't learn anything.

[Kelly Chen]

The reason I asked is because I don't agree at all that a townie claim should've meant he gets lynched.

I never said that.

Yes you did:

Were we going to lynch him? That completely depends on the claim he was about to give.

What do you say this means?

bump for Pie

I'm wondering about Kelly again. Around the deadline it seemed several ppl were quickly switching their votes away from her. Possible buddies trying to keep her alive. I'm also wondering why she didn't claim her flavour when she claimed townie.

I didn't claim flavor because the only reason I claimed was to reassure you that I would not claim power role at the last second.

Who do you say took their votes off me around the deadline? ibaesha and MBF? You think I'm scum with nonny?


An ubertimmy lynch looks comparably good to a Patrick lynch to me presently. The thing, though, is that our power roles could also happen to not know what the PM looks like.

[Kelly Chen]

alko, my reasons for Patrick would be the same as the reasons for ubertimmy at the moment. I've had a bad feeling about Patrick's intentions since kaebamf claimed yesterday.


Also:
I hope it's obvious that it will do us no good to explain what seems credible about kaebamf's claimed flavor.

[Kelly Chen]

For the record, I'm ok with Pie given his last response and taking his usual nature into consideration. I remain puzzled at the difficulty in getting my point across, though.

unvote

I'm not sure where I'm moving my vote yet. I feel that a kaebamf lynch at this point would be highly stupid; we don't have to test the "he wasn't mod-quoting, so it's not his role" theory now. Anyway, why would the mod warn us not to quote our role PMs (after deleting kaebamf's post) if quoting a safe claim isn't a modkillable offense?

I think I'm going to reread, as I think there's lots of information out there now to make guesses about who couldn't be scum together.


Replying to this:

What would

you

say if you were scum claiming in that situation? (Followup: If the answer is townie, shouldn't we just have him claim to see if he's a power role, otherwise lynch him? If the answer is power role, what about the counterclaim?)

You're missing part of the point in that I am very skeptical that it was time to lynch yellowbounder,

particularly

as he just got replaced. You've asked what that has to do with anything, and the answer is that, I would bet, ubertimmy's posts will/would be more useful in demonstrating his alignment than yellowbounder's posts or lack of posts.

Lynching lurking newbies is already a little lazy or desperate. When there's a replacement who won't have those particular faults, what's the rush? There was no deadline yet.

I would like MOS to address this issue also...


Incidentally, the above is not a defense of ubertimmy today. ubertimmy could be proven scum and I would still make the above argument.

[Kelly Chen]

vote: kaebamf

I think if he were townie really, he had been modkilled. I think he has cheated. I don't like trap or cheat

Are you saying you believe he's scum, or that he's a townie who cheated?

And I still think kelly is scum/devil, and unluckily he didn't be lynched yesterday...

The scum are not happy about this either.

[Kelly Chen]

Trying to figure out why MBF decided to vote me today. Yesterday he wrote:

Deadline, huh? Sounds unfortunate.

Anyway, I've liked Ibby's play thus far. On the other hand, kae(bacde) and Al are pretty high on my suspicions list.

I don't like how Al warned UT(yb) to defend himself. Feels like scum warning another. Aside from that, I don't have too much to persuade anyone to vote Al. But that doesn't stop me from believing that he is scum. At least, nothing that wouldn't be immediately written off as petty and irrelevent, or just being oversensitive.

Sorry about posting so meagerly. I pretty much skimmed everything. If it boils down to deadline, I'm voting UT or kae over Kelly.

Both of those people are still alive. What has happened since that is kaebamf claimed, his lynch was vetoed (and I'd advocated the veto), ibby was shown to be town (not a likely surprise to MBF).

The "Kelly killed Ibby" theory is being suggested by Patrick and tokiyoh. I wonder if MBF has the same idea.

Ibby's death was a surprise to me, and I assumed she must've given off power role tells. After rereading the thread, I don't see this. I guess it's possible that scum thought she was unlynchable or a threat or something. If the scum were really trying to frame me with that move, I would guess that we have a bunch of inexperienced scum. Otherwise I could see someone close to Ibby wanting her out of the game, such as MOS.

-------------------------------------------

I reread the thread and put together some guesses as to who isn't scum together. After reading everything, this is my gut suspicion ranking:

1. ubertimmy replacing yellowbounder
2. Patrick
3. Mastermind of Sin
4. mikeburnfire replacing nonny
5. mikanoff
6. tokiyoh
7. Pie_is_good
8. Yosarian2
9. al_kohaulec
10. kaebamf replacing Bacde

I really do not understand the suspicions of alko.

I feel that Patrick has gone to some lengths to stop yellowbounder/ubertimmy from being lynched, yesterday and today. Today I feel like he's hell-bent on getting myself or kae lynched.

I made a diagram showing as dotted lines my guesses as to who is not scum together. (I'm not on it.)

IF ubertimmy is scum, my diagram guesses that his partners are in { tokiyoh Patrick MBF mikanoff }, with the limitation that I doubt Patrick and mikanoff are scum together. The diagram also permits a { ubertimmy MOS MBF } group.

I am guessing here that ubertimmy is not partners with alko, Yosarian, Pie, or kaebamf.

Thoughts?

[Kelly Chen]

also, IF i am lynched and you guys see that I am not scum, I'd suggest you look at Yos, Kelly, and alko.

Hmm, this isn't the list I would have expected. Can anyone tell me

why

we should be looking at alko?

Also, I'm fairly certain kelly is scum of some kind at the moment, so I'm going to

unvote, vote: kelly

, she's risen above kaebamf's scumminess in my eyes.

Did you think kaebamf was scummy?


EWP: Patrick, I am not so concerned that you seem to be after myself and kaebamf, as that I can see this as being an effort to save ubertimmy without admitting that's what you're doing. Yesterday too, you argued against lynching a lurker, when your real goal was surely to get me lynched.

As far as Ibby's death... I don't get it. I want to think there was some good reason to NK her, though.

[Kelly Chen]

I really do not understand the suspicions of alko.

Do you mean my suspicions on others, or suspicions of others towards me? From your latter posts, I'm assuming you mean you don't understand other's suspicions towards me, but I just want clarification.

Right. I'm talking about the votes on you from out of the blue.

[Kelly Chen]

I believe the votes as such:

4 ubertimmy (pie yos kae alko)
2 kelly (mbf ut)
1 kae (mik)
1 alko (mos)

not voting: kelly and tokiyoh

I support the ubertimmy lynch currently.

MBF doesn't feel like going after me but is still voting me. He hasn't commented on the ubertimmy wagon. He still wants to go after alko.

IIRC MOS was 2nd on yellow yesterday, but not today. Also looking to go after alko without much effort or explanation.

I have a pretty good feeling about everyone on the UT wagon. This makes me think that if he's scum, he hasn't been bussed yet.

[Kelly Chen]

I think if alko and I are scum together, our strategy is pretty bad. As soon as one of us dies, the other would come under fire for defending scum pretty overtly.

[Kelly Chen]

Today anyway, not much seems overt about your defense of ubertimmy.

[Kelly Chen]

Also, he's not defending you in turn, so it's not the same thing at all.

[Kelly Chen]

Hmm, that is interesting. I don't have a big problem with ubertimmy's initial suspect list, although placing Patrick at the bottom is a little hard for me to understand.

Maybe it is WIFOM. If I were you (assuming you're town) I wouldn't rule out Kelly-alko. I wouldn't particularly suspect it, though.

[Kelly Chen]

Mikanoff, i don't have a strong feeling of your alignment as of now, but i don't think staying on the modkill issue is going to help. You can base your reasonings off the modkill (or rather, the lack of it), but i'm pretty sure we

don't

want our mod to come out and declare Kae dead right now. (<<-- and that's probably 99% not going to happen anyway.) I understand that you are just trying to express your opinion, but if you don't think Kae is scum then drop it. Since he's not going to get modkilled, it's probably better to finish scum off first and

then

discuss this issue after the game is done.

I agree with this.

And YES

Ibby attacks you strongly yesterday, now she's dead. If you are pro town, I can more likely see a scumgroup keeping both you and ibby alive and watching while you went at each others throats. So I think it's quite possible that you are part of the scum and killed ibby because she was a threat to you, while planning to use the catchall WIFOM excuse if anyone suggested the idea.

This is exactly why i said i was inclined towards Kelly killing Ibby as opposed to someone else trying to set Kelly up.

And that's why I said I think Ibby's death is indicative of something (frame attempt by newbs, MOS involvement), because the move makes little sense to me.

I have to guess that scum thought she was unlynchable, in any case.

I find Kelly's suspicion list rather OMGUS-ish. Whoever attacks her gets a place higher up on her list of suspects. Not to say it isn't natural, but this behavior has certainly made her earlier "i'm more valuable than lurkers since i'm contributing" argument worthless - to me at least.

This is pretty irritating as it doesn't seem very accurate. I'm sorry if you took the lurker comment personally, but I didn't even have you in mind.

My list was ubertimmy, Patrick, MOS, MBF, mikanoff, tokiyoh, Pie, Yosarian, alko, and kaebamf. ubertimmy didn't attack me prior to my posting that list; that is

his

OMGUS, not mine. MOS has never attacked me, quite the contrary. I have stated why I distrust Patrick; you can look at my argument and decide for yourself if there's anything to it. MBF

barely

attacked me (two short posts!). mikanoff wants me out, and he's only #5 on my list. You, tokiyoh, are in the bottom half.

As far as Yosarian... I know better than to trust him fully, but when I read his posts, knowing I'm not scum, I have trouble seeing the scum agenda. (And I definitely don't think he's scum with ubertimmy.)

alko too. Maybe I should be more careful, but I don't see the scum agenda easily. I suppose scum can gain some mileage from defending me so that they look good when they have to NK me, but wouldn't it be more attractive to help lynch me and use the NK on someone else?

I also suggested who I think could be the scum group if ubertimmy is scum. It's true, and I said as much, that I tentatively rule out Yosarian, alko, Pie, and kaebamf. This isn't because I think they're town, but because I have trouble seeing them as scum with ubertimmy specifically.

Even though i'm not dead sure that Kelly is scum, but i think getting her alignment reviewed will help me a lot in reading a number of other players.

How so? Please answer. You've barely suggested you think I'm scum, and since yesterday (when you didn't think I was very suspicious) we have Ibby's death and the fact that you think my suspicions are OMGUS. If you don't strongly feel I'm scum, please say what you think you'll learn from my death.

ubertimmy's posts today have not been good. I wish more people were contributing more, though, before I put my vote on him.

[Kelly Chen]

I am voting kaebamf because I really think he's scum and he has done a fake roleclaim. So, he hasn't modkilled.

Here's why I don't agree with this:

kaebamf's claim doesn't look fake. I (a claimed townie, remember) can't accept that kaebamf invented that claim on his own.

Additionally, after the mod deleted kaebamf's first post, he reminded us not to quote our role PMs. That

suggests

that kaebamf nearly did this, and I'm betting the first kaebamf post wasn't a scum claim. It could still be that kaebamf nearly quoted his

safe

claim, though, and that this prompted the mod's reminder.

Either way, he quoted or came close to quoting

something

from his role PM, and I cannot see any reason to think it's more likely that what he quoted was a safe claim, than that it was his real role.

Ah, in the people have acused my by this reason, probably has some scum....

Not necessarily, since you made it sound like you didn't have a strong opinion as to whether kaebamf was scum or a cheater. It sounded like you just wanted him out.

[Kelly Chen]

I have to guess that scum thought she was unlynchable, in any case.

Could you please explain your reasoning for this?

The alternative as I see it is that the scum felt ibaesha was a threat during the day. I really don't see that. Even if I were the scum, I don't see that. It seems to me that if she had succeeded in getting me lynched, it would only have been because of the deadline.

Personally I had a feeling of Ibby either being something other than a vanilla townie. I was leaning towards town aligned but I wasn't too sure. The point of this is that the mafia probably picked up whatever tell I saw too. The bishop was not what I expected from her though.

Well, I can't comment on what tell you saw. Is it that sometimes she seemed to get quiet and stay out of view? Because that invariably strikes me as scummy.

[Kelly Chen]

Correct me if i'm wrong, are you saying that as scum, you would not have seen any need to kill Ibby because she was not a threat to you?

Not enough need to force people to speculate the next day that I might have killed her. And this speculation seems particularly likely, because to whom else could Ibby have seemed to be a threat?

There's WIFOM here, but it's the answer to your question. If I'm scum, killing Ibby doesn't seem like an obvious move.

[Kelly Chen]

Personally I would still be up for lynching Kelly and I could be persuaded about alko. I can see a possible alko/kelly connection, with possibly even Kaebamf. Those players have all been heavily pushing an ubertimmy lynch today and I still don't get the reasoning. Alko and kelly have defended each other pretty much most of the game. Kelly and alko pushed a kaebamf lynch yesterday but then he immediately claimed townie and they laid off him.

He did a lot better than just claim townie. You'll have to trust me on that, or lynch me first and then trust me...


I can see the possibility of alko as scum... But I don't see anything that makes me very suspicious about him. Those of you who suspect him, would you still suspect him if you knew I was town and he's not defending a scum partner here? I don't recall that anyone has given a reason why alko is suspicious to them.

Also, I read through most of tokiyoh's games, especially where he was scum, and they leave me with the impression that he's probably town in this game. I'll have to work on elaborating on this.

I don't know what MBF is up to. He seems inattentive in this game.

[Kelly Chen]

At this rate I'll be voting UT pretty soon. I don't feel like I've got much else to say.

[Kelly Chen]

Is that a joke? We don't have a vig.

[Kelly Chen]

At this rate I'll be voting UT pretty soon. I don't feel like I've got much else to say.

What do you have to say about MBF's actions?

I really don't know what to make of them. It's quite possible that they're indicative of being scum, but I think there's not much chance that I'll be feeling more strongly about him being scum than UT.

[Kelly Chen]

vote: ubertimmy

[Kelly Chen]

The vote count should be

1 kelly: ut
1 kae: mik
5 ut: pie, yos, kae, kelly, mbf
2 mbf: mos, alko

So UT is not lynched.

unvote

I definitely want to see if UT is modkilled for that. I like the claim better than kaebamf's.

Here's the thing... If UT has that as a safe claim, does it make any sense for him to make a point of safe claims by continuing to want to lynch kaebamf? Wouldn't it be better to accept kaebamf's claim, run everybody up, get a whole lot of good-sounding claims, and make it that much easier to find the power roles?

If UT is town, wouldn't we expect him to find kaebamf's claim credible? Is Bacde+kaebamf

really

so scummy that he should assume that's a safe claim?

And if UT thinks the fact that kaebamf wasn't modkilled is quite likely indicative of him not sharing his real role with us, why on earth would UT produce his own role claim in even more detail?

Any answers UT?

[Kelly Chen]

So you read like the first line of my post and stopped?

I'm thinking MBF is probably the devil. I think he might have even hinted at it when we simulposted earlier. A player who doesn't know how to act is very much what I would expect of a devil.

[Kelly Chen]

I said kaebamf's was not inventable, and UT's is even more so.

I hope you find more to say about my comments, Yosarian. I find UT's behavior very hard to understand.

MBF, if the mod doesn't step in, I might favor lynching UT anyway despite his claim. So it's the same difference.

Also MBF, why did you ask what I think of your inactions?

Look at UT's comments today:

uhhh Yos way to assume i dont know what the townie pm looks like

i just think the fact he didnt get modkilled is really really suspicious

Maybe the scum know more then you think they do. Maybe that's why. But I can't see him posting his role pm and because he changed a word here and there he is not killed. It's blatantly getting around the rules, and it's using a loophole which I, as a mod, would not let exist. Yos, if you believe that his claim didn't result in a modkill because he changed the flavor, then please, tell me a game you're in, and post your role pm with slightly changed flavor. SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

That's my reasoning.

How can UT say the above and then claim in the way he did? Is he

trying

for a modkill? Does he think modkills can't happen now? (In which case, I see no reason for UT to suspect that kaebamf gave a fake claim.)

[Kelly Chen]

I don't understand what is confusing about what I'm saying. Look at UT's claimed flavor, and the way that he claimed it, and then try to understand UT's response to kaebamf's claim.

I said I liked UT's claim better than kaebamf's due to the flavor. I am positive that each one either is a townie, or has safe claim flavor.

I unvoted UT because it's possible that I might come to the conclusion that he shouldn't be lynched. I'm also curious about the modkill possibility, particularly as UT

should

be modkilled according to his own comments on the subject.

I didn't say anything about us having too many townie claims. I was only saying that if UT is scum with a fake claim, wouldn't it be in his interests to agree that a good flavor claim means you're probably town?

[Kelly Chen]

This is baffling to me...

Kelly, I don't know how you can think UT deserves to get modkilled more than Kaebamf. UT's claim is even more obviously paraphrasing than Kaebamf's. The fact that UT said "there are some horrible things i want to stop happening here" is a pretty good indication of paraphrasing. It's got textbook thesaurus marks all over it (not that UT used a thesaurus, but you get the point).

My point is not that

I

believe UT deserves to be modkilled more than kaebamf. I'm pointing out that UT said that if kaebamf had really "paraphrased" his role flavor, he would have been modkilled, and then UT did exactly the same thing himself. If UT followed his own reasoning then he should be expecting to be modkilled now, since he would be (claiming to be) claiming his true role.

Being a townie, though, I can say that UT has definitely

not

paraphrased more than kaebamf did.

Now why do I think you knew I'd say that...?

[Kelly Chen]

Well, that claim you just contrived is obviously derived from kaebamf's claim. While UT's claim could be seen as mimicking and paraphrasing kaebamf's, I can tell you there is no way it is simply that. (If it seems that scum do not have safe flavor claims, and I die and am proven to be a townie, please consider UT confirmed.)

It's probably true that at this point, no one else will be able to believably claim townie flavor. But at least we all appear to have specific details; if anybody claims my occupation, or even part of my name, I can counterclaim.

[Kelly Chen]

They both look the same to me, just paraphrased slightly differently.

What do you want me to do about it? I'm telling you that I have a townie PM of my own and that UT's "paraphrase" of his flavor is rock solid.

If kaebamf were only claiming now, after UT, I would not accept his wording very well. But since there was no model for a townie claim when kaebamf claimed, I consider kaebamf's just as solid.

[Kelly Chen]

So mikanoff, you think I'm scum going out of my way to stop or delay two pro-town players from being lynched? Do you think I'm trying to lose or something?

I don't think the mod has checked the thread since UT claimed.

If he is checking the thread, I do believe I'd like a prod on tokiyoh.

[Kelly Chen]

Ok, so there is no modkill. Now I'm just waiting for UT to respond to my concerns here.

[Kelly Chen]

I have to decide whether to believe you, UT.

If you claimed your real role, then surely you would find that kaebamf's claim rings true. So kaebamf either really is a townie, or he has a safe claim. Wouldn't you agree?

So what could you prove by trying to get modkilled yourself? You made much less effort to paraphrase, so you getting modkilled wouldn't prove anything about kaebamf. And now that we see that you are not being modkilled, it still shouldn't prove anything to you about kaebamf, since he could be using a safe claim just as easily as before.

[Kelly Chen]

Waiting...

[Kelly Chen]

For the record I am not yet happy with UT. I'm actually leaning towards the theory that scum

obtained

safe claims. That would explain things for me, wrt UT's response to kaebamf's claim and UT's own claim.

I'm finding myself more suspicious of Yosarian, and less certain that alko's play has clearly been pro-town.

I am also suspicious of MOS, but I'm not sure it's suspicious to vote for you (MBF). I do see that he could be trying to stop a UT lynch now that that position is held by a more experienced player than yellowbounder.

[Kelly Chen]

vote: ubertimmy

I don't like his response(s?). They do not clarify things for me, and it takes too long to get them.

I think something funky is going on here, as far as there not being too much commentary on his claim + his reaction to kaebamf's claim.

[Kelly Chen]

bleah. I'm not going to worry about picking between the two of you at this point in time.

I'm inclined to agree with MOS more, but I also suspect him more.

[Kelly Chen]

Yeah where is the valuable tokiyoh?

In my opinion not enough people are commenting on UT's claim wrt his response to kaebamf's claim. I'm pretty sure I said that already though.

[Kelly Chen]

nice.

Also, I believe Pie's vote is on ubertimmy.

[Kelly Chen]

I am very skeptical of this "I deleted all my great reasoning for voting Kelly" post.

[Kelly Chen]

So Kain, did you have any thoughts on the ubertimmy-kaebamf thing? Have you read this game day pretty thoroughly?

[Kelly Chen]

Thanks.

I buy kaembamf's claim. It seems consistent wit the flavor of the game. Now ubertimmy I at first questioned his claim because it was so similiar to Kaebamf, thus a sign of a possible rip off, but I kinda buy his, kinda don't right now.

To repeat my own stance: I buy both claims 100% as far as being written by the mod. If they had claimed in reverse order, though, I would not buy kaebamf's much. What I'm not sure about is whether there is safe claim flavor out there.

What really has me arch an eyebrow at Ubertimmy is the fact that he thinks the Bishop made a mistake.

Yes. Also, that he argued that kaebamf's claim was not likely to be even a paraphrase because he would surely be modkilled for it... and then himself claimed in the same fashion. His explanation is not very reassuring:

second of all, thanks to the fact that I wasn't modkilled, my suspiscions have changed. It was a test of sorts, I guess.

I did reasonable read through. The first 9 pages were pretty good cause I was quoting people and assigning scum or town points. I was work and a student came in and after I hit him i accidently hit a button which made my browset go back deleting everything I had done! The other pages I read but not with as much intense focus as when i was quoting and aissigning points. That make sense?

It makes sense, but if I hadn't thought tokiyoh was town, I'm not sure I would buy it, since it could be an excuse to not explain your vote for me. Even if you are just borrowing tokiyoh's train of thought, it would be nice to hear what about it you agree with.

[Kelly Chen]

I believe we are still on a deadline though.

[Kelly Chen]

I think that's strange Kain... I'm trying to be active in this game, but it doesn't seem to me that I've been able to sway people.

As far as UT goes, I have just been trying to get people's thoughts, not stir up votes against him (which so far isn't happening much either). I believe he's either town or he has a safe claim. Not only that, if he has a safe claim, it makes the most sense to me that he obtained it during this game day. This is based on his actions... I don't have anything else to go on and nothing else seems to particularly suggest that there are safe claims out there. If there is a good way to understand UT as being town, I'd like to know what it is, because then lynching UT could be totally unnecessary.

[Kelly Chen]

Maybe, but if UT really has the flavor he claimed, would you expect him to doubt the flavor that kaebamf claimed? Or reach the conclusion that kaebamf must not have been quoting his real role?

[Kelly Chen]

-_- I didn't believe kaebamf because i thought that that was too close to quoting his role pm.
When it came time for me to claim, i realized either
a) kaebamf was lieing and thats why he wasnt modkilled
b) kaebamf's claim wasnt bad enough for a modkill.

if it's b), which it now appears it is, then there's an advantage for town. and if i find an advantage, i'm going to exploit it. if it turned out to be a), we'd catch a scum. Thats why i claimed the way I did.

this is essentially what i said before but im laying it out more step by step.

i'm lurking because school is killing me with work (4 APs and other honors classes), and ive been very busy lately.

patrick, if i had just said:

i am a townie

i would've been lynched. I want the town to avoid wasting a lynch. Thus, I tried to claim as well as I could, to avoid having the town mislynch. The primary purpose was not to "check" a modkill. it was to claim and claim well.

I have two problems that make me keep my vote where it is.
1. If kaebamf's claim was "bad" (in the "modkillable" sense), in my estimation your claim was MUCH worse. (Yes I have good reason to believe this.) So you being modkilled would not in my mind show that kaebamf was scum.
2. Whether or not your primary purpose was to test for a modkill, I strongly believe you should have expected one given your own comments, which makes me doubt your great concern over wasting a lynch. I mean what's the great urgency in stopping us from lynching you if you're going to die anyway?

[Kelly Chen]

Guys, stop with this bullshit. If Kaebamf had made a claim that would've gotten a townie killed, he would've gotten modkilled as well, even if he was scum. No scum is going to quote their role pms, but if a scum pretends to quote a protown role pm, it's the same damn thing. Kaebamf's claim wasn't enough to get him modkilled, whether he was lying or not, so just fucking drop it. It's a completely irrelevant argument, and it's just sidetracking us from the real issues at hand.

What... Nobody IS talking about this.

[Kelly Chen]

So UT has to explain this belief in order to answer my question, and your response is to write a rebuttal to what he believed and say it isn't relevant? How is it not relevant? How else can he explain his actions? And what good is a rebuttal to what UT (used to) believe unless you mean to accuse UT of being full of crap?

[Kelly Chen]

Dude, if you think UT being modkilled could not possibly implicate kaebamf, then why don't you vote UT for being full of crap? Why are you saying you agree with my point, but due to my reasoning (which according to you is merely unnecessary) it's not a reason to keep my vote on him?

Also, my reasoning for point 1 is not irrelevant, because to argue that UT's behavior made no sense I have to use his own beliefs about what gets a person modkilled, not your beliefs about it.

[Kelly Chen]

My point 1 is not that he was mistaken that him being modkilled could implicate kaebamf. My point 1 is that I believe UT should be smart enough to realize that his claim made far less effort to paraphrase than kaebamf's, and so would be useless to show kaebamf as scum if the issue really was that kaebamf's claim wasn't "bad enough".

Good enough? I mean if you can understand UT's behavior today then let's get to it. You're not going to help him by making petty criticisms of my reasoning. The post of mine that you quoted is not even my whole case against him.


By the way, I count

five

people on UT (me, Yos, Pie, MBF, Patrick).

[Kelly Chen]

Did something happen to make you more suspicions of MBF than MOS?

[Kelly Chen]

i'm not trying to attack your whole case against UT. I had a problem with that particular point, and I pointed it out. What's so wrong with that?

Well, it took multiple responses for you to clarify what you were getting at. There's nothing wrong with what you're saying, it's just not an effective defense of UT (or whatever) when we're three days from the deadline. I still don't understand the purpose of your first post or who was intended to learn something from a rebuttal of what UT used to believe.

I didn't say you shouldn't vote him (even though i believe that MBF is by far the better lynch, followed by Alko probably), but that that particular point should NOT be one of your reasons, because it's a crappy reason.

And I responded to both of your criticisms of that particular point. Your first criticism ultimately doesn't even disagree with my point, that given the claims we had, UT being modkilled would not have suggested much that kaebamf was scum. The point doesn't become a "crappy reason" just because you want to get there a different way.

Your second criticism is that this point amounts to voting UT for holding a mistaken belief. I just finished responding to this. If UT is telling the truth, he used reasoning that he should have been able to tell didn't make sense. Clearly he understood a concept of a "bad" (kaebamf's) vs. a "worse" claim, so how could he hope to prove anything by making a worse claim? This is not the same thing as having a mistaken belief.

Do you understand why I suspect ubertimmy? If not, I'll link you to some of my posts where I explained this. If you do understand, why don't you give an opinion on the whole matter?

[Kelly Chen]

From my first post on this topic.

If UT is town, wouldn't we expect him to find kaebamf's claim credible? Is Bacde+kaebamf

really

so scummy that he should assume that's a safe claim?

And if UT thinks the fact that kaebamf wasn't modkilled is quite likely indicative of him not sharing his real role with us, why on earth would UT produce his own role claim in even more detail?

UT has answered both of these questions, but do you buy it? His reaction to a good flavor claim (similar to his own) is to disbelieve it, and then he checks to see whether he can get modkilled for doing something similar?

It also rings false to me that since he was not modkilled, his "suspicions have changed" so that presumably he doesn't suspect kaebamf now.

[Kelly Chen]

[Kelly Chen]

Agree, if UT is town I won't be giving MOS any points for not being on this lynch.

[Kelly Chen]

Kain, what seems town about MOS? On the previous page he was apparently defending UT without saying so explicitly, and every time he replied to me he had to change and/or moderate what his point was. Finally he FOSed UT. I'll be shocked if he cares to argue about this characterization.

This was one of several times in this game I've gotten the impression that MOS thinks it makes him looks pro-town to have a sudden fit about some minor point or side issue.


We have a deadline tomorrow, so if you're not going to vote UT, please unvote so we can be sure to get a lynch.

[Kelly Chen]

Why did alko, Pie, and mikanoff stop posting? I find this rather damning of alko since he's plenty active on the site.

alko being scum doesn't line up very well with my other thoughts on the game though

Someone hammer please. This should be pretty informative.

[Kelly Chen]

Well, I think UT is either scum or not at all trustworthy. If he is scum then this will tell us something about safe claims.

Whether he is scum or not, he's one of the biggest issues in the game. There's a lot of history around him.

[Kelly Chen]

Oh yeah. I thought we were dealing with a "majority of cast votes" rule, whereby someone could thwart the lynch just by voting someone else.

[Kelly Chen]

I'll start us off with a

vote: MOS

I don't feel much like repeating what I'd said I'm afraid

[Kelly Chen]

Not as much, I guess. It's true there's little reason why scum would not have names and occupations. We might do no better than out the power roles.

I thought some more and decided I don't think the doc should claim. I thought it would be worth it to have an uncounterclaimable doc tomorrow if we lynch wrong today, but then the doc would just get NKed. Also, there's a good chance that we'll be able to pick out the real doc based on flavor, in the event of a counterclaim at lylo.

[Kelly Chen]

If it isn't too late (and I think it must not be) I want to be sure to strongly recommend against investigating kaebamf. Given the circumstances and content of his claim (including the win condition flavor that sinners should not have) I find it extremely unlikely that he's scum.

[/directing the cop]

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly, as it's been pointed out, the sinners do know the townie win condition. Everyone does, as it was in the second mod post of the game.

The setup is as follows: three {3}

Sinners

, one {1}

Devil

, one {1}

Bishop

, one {1}

Angel

, one {1}

Archangel

, and five {5}

Vanilla Townies

. The game-related portions of their role PMs are as follows:

You are a vanilla townie. You may talk in-thread during the day and vote, but may not talk to anyone or take any actions at night. You win when all SINNERS are dead.

So "he knows the townie win condition" is not a strong enough reason to assume anyone is a good guy.

That's why I said "win condition

flavor

." I have no reason to believe that scum were given an example of town win condition flavor.

Meanwhile, it's starting to feel like you are trying too hard to convince the rest of us that you know what's in the townie role PM.

My scumdar burst out of my chest when I read this.

[Kelly Chen]

I am Konrad Breur, Vanilla Townie
I am the town brewer that just wants the trouble to stop so i can return to my normal life.
I win when all the SINNERS are dead.

There IS information here that is neither in the mod's post, nor would be part of a sinner's role PM.

Based on Yosarian's first reaction to kaebamf's claim, I believed he was quite aware of this.

[Kelly Chen]

I don't think we need to wait for Pie and mikanoff to lynch MOS. It looks to me like he's checked out of this game, which is hardly what you do when someone falsely claims a guilty on you.

However, if one of those two is the doc, we don't want to go to night without them being here.


Also, what happened to Kain? I definitely still want commentary from him.

[Kelly Chen]

Patrick may not be too fond of me, but I do agree with him. A guilty result could provide so much needed information, namly who the scum are. On the other hand, the cop should only come foward with a unanimous(sp) desicion to do so.

I also would like to know why people still don't believe me, Is it something Bacde said?

Scum pretending to quote a role pm would get modkilled as well. It's the only fair way to deal with things, so don't assume he's scum b/c he didn't get modkilled.

I see this as MOS trying to look helpful without having to do much. The opinion expressed here is weak; he's not even saying he thinks kaebamf is town. It also seems to me that MOS is just (weakly) supporting the more widely-held sentiment that kaebamf was probably town.

Compare this with his defense of ubertimmy at the end of yesterday.

[Kelly Chen]

I don't think it's likely that scum would guess that MoS is the cop. And if they did, I don't think this is what they'd do about it.

[Kelly Chen]

Actually he has a pretty fair point in some ways. I don't agree that you are scum because of it, but it really does look like you quoted your role pm. Since that is strictly forbidden by the mod, I will be interested in seeing your actual role pm at the end of the game.

Here I DO state my position that I think kaebamf isn't scum, so I don't think I'm straddling the fence at all.

Actually it looks like you don't think he's scum *for that reason*, which seems to be a theme for you in this game.

[Kelly Chen]

If our doc is absent, we don't want to go to night...

[Kelly Chen]

Still here and still want to play!

[Kelly Chen]

I talked to Rosso in chat briefly yesterday.

[Kelly Chen]

I didn't get anything concrete from him, just the impression that he did intend to return.

This game could easily be modded by someone else. But we surely need to replace at least a few people.

FWIW, I still strongly favor an MOS, Yos, Pie scum grouping. If that's accurate, I'll be pretty pleased with this game even if it is abandoned.

[Kelly Chen]

mod:

Those of us still here intend to take the game to night as soon as it is guaranteed that our doctor will be around to make a night action. This means we need replacements for mikanoff, Kain, and probably Pie. If you find a fourth replacement lying around, kaebamf too.

FYI

[Kelly Chen]

It might be worth it but I don't know if it's possible.

[Kelly Chen]

I believe this game is cooked. Rosso has had a week. In the last couple of days, he picked up a PM I sent him a few days earlier, but he didn't respond to it.

Don't follow suit if you don't want to but

I am Friedrich Scherer, barber.

[Kelly Chen]

And note that MOS is going to be lynched today.

I don't think the game needs to continue at this rate. I know MBF is busy. MOS's vote shouldn't count. So if Yosarian or Patrick don't wish to continue, I'd call that a majority to stop.

[Kelly Chen]

I think it's somewhat of an overstatement that I still want to play at this point.

Regarding the setup... This is the second game I've been in with a governor who, on paper, should never use his ability, but in practice, twilight activity made use of the ability seem desirable.

Once it's determined that this game is over, it would be nice to hear from you alko, about what it was like being pro-mafia with no knowledge of who the mafia were. It seems like a nasty role to me, especially for a forum game.

[Kelly Chen]

Rosso, if I were you I'd call this over and get back in line, assuming you still want to mod. The game was good, well worth the time.

[Kelly Chen]

I was a townie.

MOS Yos Pie, c'mon c'mon *shakes dice*

[Kelly Chen]

I guess MBF was having lots of bad dreams about going to night and not being protected. Him dying should not have been a likely outcome of this coming night.

[Kelly Chen]

ah. Yeah I was definitely getting "NOT A TOWNIE" off of you and also alko, based on the D2 discussions about flavor, kaebamf, and UT. Obviously I wouldn't want to bring that up since perhaps the scum hadn't noticed.

I first thought Yos was a townie (he favored the kaebamf veto, and believed as I did that UT must be scum given his behavior), but I stopped feeling that when he didn't seem to understand my reaction to UT's flavor claim.

[Kelly Chen]

ubertimmy was lynched and was revealed as a townie. MBF was surely the cop.

Thanks for the comments alko.

[Kelly Chen]

Well it had to be Kain or mikanoff. I'd have to guess it was mikanoff.