Mini 352- Saints and Sinners Mafia - Abandoned

[ibaesha]

vote: Kelly

[ibaesha]

<3

[ibaesha]

Bacde will get you for that.

[ibaesha]

Probably best to double-lynch when it looks like there's a feasible case for it instead of attempting to figure out which day right now. I doubt seeing such a case on Day 1 however.

[ibaesha]

Haha~ i don't think that can be called "proved random" since we don't know if the dice thing was true to begine with **LOL

Anyways.

No random vote from me but hi to everyone. About the double lynching possibility, i'd say we start playing the 1-lynch game normally, and when someone sees need of a double lynch, we can debate over that then. But of course Bishop holds the final decision.

tokiyoh... Are you scum again ?? That's rough.

unvote; vote toki

Let's see if he squirms. I'm totally up for a toki wagon as a start.

[ibaesha]

Because Toki will lurk in plain sight by posting little but fluff otherwise. I want him to prove me wrong.

[ibaesha]

I'm scared to vote tokiyoh because he might go into hiding or something.

His secret is safe with me.

Plz explain this.

[ibaesha]

Kelly, I didn't understand your mention of 'providing fake roleclaims' or whatever. If your willing to explain (I'm guessing some joke) could you?

Yes, could you?

I'm not totally sure of this tokiyoh bandwagon; we're going to lynch him for getting a lot of scum roles, and posting fluffily?

No, we're going to pressure him for it so he knows he won't get away with it. It's too early to decide who to lynch. And bandwagonning anyone can bear fruit besides.

I don't understand very well the reasons for this bandwagon... Why? What has toki said for you want to lynch him?

Again, it's too early to determine who is the best lynch today. The reasons for the bandwagon are 1. To start a bandwagon on someone and see what happens because of it. 2. Because I personally want to see toki hunt scum instead of posting fluff and being non-committal for once. The second refers less to toki in this game and more to toki's past history in other games.

I'm sticking to the toki wagon for now, but could return to my Kelly vote. I'm not sure if she's pro-town and being silly or scum trying to spin a ridiculous amount of WIFOM early on.

[ibaesha]

Kelly: You're acting weird in my opinion. And it's like openly weird. Which causes me to wonder. "If Kelly was scum would she act openly weird?" Then basically, "Why would she act that way if she were scum?" It'd draw attention to you. But then you could be scum that knows that people would think that and decide you weren't suspicious afterall, etc. It spins into WIFOM in my head and it bothers me.

[ibaesha]

^^ :goodposting:

unvote; vote Kelly

Toki seems alright to me so far. I think Pie is grasping at straws in his reasoning to vote. (noted), but I can't dismiss Kelly's odd behavior.

[ibaesha]

Kelly: Why would I want to be like you when I don't trust you at all and find you the most suspicious right now? And as far as you being an easy target, don't kid yourself. You're not some newbie making newbie mistakes. You're experienced, and open set-ups are your favorite type of game. If anything you'd be a difficult target. If you feel that you're an easy target, please explain why.

Also, if anything, toki strikes me as underdefensive. When someone is run up, obviously they're going to defend themselves to the best of their ability. I felt he took it in stride and has answered points against him rather well. Including the one where you state that he was echoing mikanoff when he really wasn't. That was a misrepresentation by you.

Oh and one more thing. When someone his fine with a wagon and actually contributes towards pointing out why someone might be scum, as you did, but doesn't put their vote where their mouth is, I find -that- suspicious.

[ibaesha]

I'm not making any mistakes IIRC. It looks like it's easy to say that being "weird" makes me suspicious. Surprising, since there are a lot of scumchatters here.

You are acting

openly

strange. I already said what I think of this. And the fact that you say that it makes you an easy target is ridiculous. You are the one with the behavior, therefore people are going to react to it.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Nice way to attempt to twist my intent. I stated clearly why I was happy with wagonning him first and it had nothing to do with your observation of him. It had more to do with me thinking about it after you voted him and deciding it was a good place to start the day based on my past experiences with him.

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

Yes, exactly. What IS your agenda, and why do you have one? The fact that I have found myself consistently asking myself why you are doing and saying the things you are lends itself towards my belief that you are attempting to spin WIFOM early on as I've already stated and explained.

Very happy with my vote.

[ibaesha]

One question: If you were town, why would you want to embrace any behavior that would make others wonder if you might be scum?

[ibaesha]

I think Pie is grasping at straws in his reasoning to vote. (noted),

This is probably true. It's day 1, and weak reasons are often the only reasons to go on. The Kelly wagon seems a bit lame - "She's acting weird" is legit late game and means nothing early on.

I agree that early on day 1, weak reasons are often the only thing to go on. That is why my impression of you is only noted and nothing more. However, I disagree about the the rest. There's no reason, whatsoever, for me to withold my suspicions and not state what they are. I also don't see how stating it and acting on Kelly's weird behavior is more legit later than it is now. If someone waits until later in a game to state what they were suspicious of earlier on, my first question would be, "Why didn't you say something then?"

[ibaesha]

It is a trap. It's like good cop / bad cop. You guys hammer on tokiyoh, I win over his trust, he hits me up for a fake claim, we nab him. Good job making me spell it out, I'm sure tokiyoh is reading this. I seriously doubt he'll fall for it now.

Good thing I'm already voting for Kelly. I find this statment to be completely scummy.

As for Kelly being in scumchat, she is there often enough. However, I rarely equate someone's scumchat play to forum play. There's a few cases I might, or certain tells that carry over on certain people. Kelly is not one of those people. I haven't played with her on the forums more than once. The fact that she's surprised I'm voting her is just silly.

[ibaesha]

Is that fence comfortable, Toki?

[ibaesha]

Seems to me the yellowbounder wagon is 5 votes based on the reasoning behind the first person's vote. The reasoning was okay, but not strong enough to warrant four quick votes afterwards. I'm not feeling it. I think there's opportunism going on here.

Still happy with my Kelly vote.

[ibaesha]

It can be a scum tell to jump onto a bandwagon by basically parroting arguments other people have made.

And the 4 people that jumped onto Yellow's wagon aren't guilty of this same infraction? The fact that you completely fail to note this is suspicious.

FOS: Yosarian

[ibaesha]

I vote for who I currently think is most suspicious and probable scum. Not whoever is looking like they're going to get lynched.

Different mindsets indeed.

[ibaesha]

I'm committed to my belief that Kelly is scum. But you and Yosarian are not far behind her.

[ibaesha]

I've already stated why. Everyone can ignore it or brush it off if they like, but I'm not going to. Kelly behaved strangely. Yes, it could've been dismissed as a joke at first, but she continued on that course. She's even gone on to say it was a joke, but then not really a joke, which is the sort of backtracking that shouldn't be ignored. I think people are WIFOMing themselves out of believing she's scum for it, which is exactly what I stated earlier. She stood on the sidelines of the toki wagon, pushing it, but not committing to it herself. Then she turned around and hopped onto the next big wagon that came along and hasn't contributed much of anything otherwise.

Yos: I do find you suspicious, if not hypocritical, for your recent behavior. You are attacking Yellow on the basis of his reasoning not being original enough and parrotting others yet you are ignoring those who did the same thing in regards to the Yellow wagon. Yes, it's nice when people agree with you, but that doesn't mean they're not scum. If one scumtell is sufficient to use for your vote, certainly the same scumtell shouldn't be dismissed when applied to others. Yet you are.

My perspective here is that Yellow is a fairly inexperienced player who has been run up by 5 (very) experienced players based on ONE reason. And that one reason is a 'scumtell' that four of those experienced players are essentially guilty of themselves. I find the wagon to be weakly founded at best and opportunistic and possibly scum-propelled at worst.

Also, while all this is going on, mikanoff and Patrick are sitting off to the sidelines not bothering to do a thing. That is noted as well.

[ibaesha]

My bad. First it was a joke, then it was a trap.

[ibaesha]

Perhaps. Except if I saw 4-5 people doing it, I'd start to get suspicious about it. You aren't at all? Seriously?

[ibaesha]

It's probably because I want her lynched.

[ibaesha]

I have the impression that ibaesha is interested in finding reasons for me to be scum, and not so interested in whether I am.

No. I believe you ARE scum. You've done nothing for me to believe otherwise. If anything, the better accusation is that I'm not looking for reasons for you not being scum.

I can see how being strange invites some WIFOM, but is it an outright scum tell?

I don't really work off of scumtells. I work off of a mixture of logic and feeling/gut. I also believe people who focus on scumtells alone are more likely scum themselves because scumtells can be committed by town and are the easiest things for scum to work with in getting a lynch to go their way. Also, inviting WIFOM isn't exactly town behavior. To commit this is to confuse the town and isn't a pro-town thing to do.

I don't have to say that there's a lot of spin here. I didn't vote tokiyoh, so ibaesha says I "stood on the sidelines".

There is no spin on this. You sat off to the side, partially pushing the toki wagon while 'having fun' without committing to it yourself. We've discussed it already, it's not a new subject and I wasn't the only one that got that impression from you.

It seems pretty gratuitous to say that I, of the 12 people here, haven't "contributed much of anything otherwise."

*shrug* You contributed strange behavior in the form of 'joke and trap' and then bandwagonned on the first wagon that rivaled your own. Yes, there's been a lack of contribution from others, but that doesn't relieve you of your own responsibility.

What more did ibaesha want from them?

For them to actually post?

I would guess that this comment is meant to be a token reference to a scum partner, assuming ibaesha is scum. I'm not sure which of mikanoff and Patrick is more likely to be scum atm.

X

If I were to judge Patrick and mikanoff, I find mikanoff the more suspicious of the two. And this is primarily because I see him guilty of the same 'crime' as Yellowbounder. The problem is, mikanoff is also a newbie. And no offense, but, I've read a couple of his games and he hasn't struck me as a particularly talented newbie.

[ibaesha]

This entire discussion is silly. There should be less concern over quicklynches in this game than usual, because if that happens any intelligent Bishop will veto the lynch unless they're positive the quicklynched person is scum. This is especially true in the case of claimed power-roles.

Regardless, Pie will push for claims whenever the opportunity arises so that's really not indicative of anything with him.

[ibaesha]

Can we lynch Kelly now?

[ibaesha]

I've been away for a few days and need to catch up on several games. Post within 24 hours.

[ibaesha]

Warning: Long post and not really well organized.

tokiyoh... Are you scum again ?? That's rough.

I saw this as amusing and took it as Kelly said she was doing. "Having some fun. " I also thought the idea of an early Toki wagon appealing because I often find him wishy-washy and non-contributive outside of fluff as I said earlier today.

I'm scared to vote tokiyoh because he might go into hiding or something.

His secret is safe with me.

Interestingly enough, this is her next post after the take-off of the Toki wagon. I found it to be odd and couldn't quite understand what she was saying. First of all, why would she suspect Toki to go into hiding or something. I don't really see -that- as part of his playstyle, so it's a strange assumption. Then there's the second comment. What is that supposed to mean? This is pretty much where I started getting a weird vibe from her.

If we all vote him, he may be too frightened of us to participate. Then he'll never get lynched... He has to give us more rope to work with.

I will observe this bandwagon as a neutral party. If tokiyoh asks, I will provide him with fake claims. But we can totally lynch him if that happens.

So she answers the above question with this response. I didn't know what to make of it either. I don't think Toki is the type to be too frightened to participate. It's not like he's a newb or anything. It's also where she begins to show signs of pushing a lynch that she's not willing to join herself.

In addition, it includes the joke/trap comment that some of you are willing to dismiss, but I'm not. Her speculation that toki would be trapped by something like this is just silly. But she's covering up such silliness by saying it was a joke at the same time.

At the point of this post I found myself thinking a lot about Kelly's behavior and what it was intended to do. It really did make me think, "If she was scum would she act this way?" and then the whole WIFOM thing as I've explained before went running through my head.

When I called Kelly on her behavior, her response was:

This isn't too different from my scumchat play, is it?

I didn't then and still don't see what this has to do with anything. It's not really a defense I'm willing to buy. Scumchat != Forum.

The next thing that caught my eye was:

It is a trap. It's like good cop / bad cop. You guys hammer on tokiyoh, I win over his trust, he hits me up for a fake claim, we nab him. Good job making me spell it out, I'm sure tokiyoh is reading this. I seriously doubt he'll fall for it now.

I said it was scummy. I never clarified why so I will now. In an open setup, I think that this kind of 'trap' is ridiculous. I also don't see how it would even work. Toki is just not that freakin' stupid. I don't know if anyone is dumb enough to fall for it in fact. It seems completely false and I can't believe that Kelly (who is pretty smart herself) would actually have faith that she'd gain anything by laying such a trap.

If tokiyoh asks me for a fake claim, the deal is still on. Otherwise it's a joke.

Just because it's a joke doesn't mean I'm not going to clarify what it says. I will gladly spend pages and pages answering questions about the literal meaning of what I said.

Okay so it's a joke. But it's a trap. A crappy trap. And all I see is her attempting to cover up by saying it's a joke.

The next thing was her vote on Yellowbounder that put him at 5 votes. While she was wanting to stay off the Toki wagon because he might be too afraid to talk, she's happy to jump onto the wagon of a newbie who already isn't participating very much. Where did her fear of scaring off someone go? Why doesn't she apply the same reasoning to this wagon as the last? Oh right, because it was the rival wagon to -hers-.

After the Yellowbounder wagon was called into question, Kelly jumped off and voted me basically as an OMGUS. She never really cites why she thinks I'm scum, just that she thinks it. I've re-read the entire post where she explains her suspicions of me but the only thing I can really see is:

I have the impression that ibaesha is interested in finding reasons for me to be scum, and not so interested in whether I am.

I've already answered this. I'm just not looking for reasons for her not to be. *shrug*

Anyways, I have come to a theory about Kelly after all of this. I will grant that she may not be a Sinner. In fact, that's the way I'm leaning. I'm thinking more that she is the Devil. I think the weirdness that she showed early on could've very much been hinting at this. I did think the voting patterns regarding her were strange, but when I went back to look at some things, I discovered that it wasn't as strange as I thought. What I did notice was:

Alko voted for Kelly, but unvoted later because he changed his mind.
Yosarian pressued Kelly quite a bit, but rather than voting her, he went after Yellowbounder.
Bacde avoided the situation almost entirely, but not sure what that means. He hasn't posted in 12 days.
MoS thought Kelly wasn't strange at all (compared to usual) and was happy to jump on the Yellow wagon.
Pie thought Kelly's wagon was 'easy' but was happy to vote Yellow whose wagon looked pretty damn opportunistic to me.

Going with my theory that Kelly is the Devil, I would imagine there to be Sinners among the above group. Especially if they caught onto the strange behavior that could be actual hints.

My next suspicion is Pie. I'm not sure if he's scum or if we just have vastly different opinions about mafia. There's been a few times today he's spouted some crap about proper play that has made little sense to me. Especially his last comment about not attacking more than one person at a time. In fact, maybe I'm reading the statement wrong, but ...

To clarify that last statement, I think it's bad play because of the two players being attacked, one of them must start out more scummy. If that player's wagon is pursued first, either the wagon is defused and no harm done, or the wagon is followed through and the scum don't gain any extra information to their nightchoices.

Why do you care if scum don't gain any info? Maybe it's the wording here but it sounds to me like you're concerned about the scum, not the town. A freudian slip maybe? Hmm. If I were to move my vote, it'd be to Pie.

About Yosarian: I am not so sure what to make of him. Almost every time I've been in a game with him, I've found his thoughts and contributions incredibly insightful. I don't know how many times I kick myself because he says what I'm thinking but does it so much better. I'm not seeing it as much in this game and find myself suspicious of him because of it. I really didn't like the way the Yellow wagon went, but now I find myself second-guessing that because after he was run up, then defended, and his wagon diffused, he disappeared. Not a good sign.

About Toki: I've found Toki to be somewhat more aggressive in this game than in the past, but he still doesn't back up what he's saying with a vote. I understand this is his playstyle, but it still comes across as non-committal and I always find that suspicious.

MoS: Not impressed. Where's the contribution? Don't you have anything to talk about?

Finally, Kelly darling, you're barking up the wrong tree with me.

Mods

Can we get prods on the following people?

yellowbounder: Aug 5th
Bacde: Aug 10th
mikanoff: Aug 13th
nonny: Aug 14th

[ibaesha]

I'm not sure why a devil would act that way, though. Why would a devil try to hint about her existance on day 1? I would think the devil would try to stay hidden until he or she had found a couple of power roles, or until the devil could form a voting block with the scum.

I don't know. I didn't really think of what the proper play for a Devil would be. However, with a Devil in the game and Kelly saying things like 'Your secret is safe with me.' and 'I'll provide safeclaims or whatever' - is freakin' suspicious (I don't care for the joke/trap defense, obv) and seems to me something that could hint at that role.

Theories aside, the thing about Kelly for me is this: when I ask myself if her play makes sense as town, the answer is no, it doesn't.

[ibaesha]

I don't see Kelly as the devil. It doesn't seem to be optimal strategy.

Do you have any other thoughts on anything or anyone?

And just because something isn't optimal strategy doesn't make it completely unlikely. As I said before I didn't think of this in terms of what would be best play for that role. I thought of it in terms of what her actions could mean. You're welcome to disagree, I suppose, but you're not offering much else.

[ibaesha]

You've thought that I was hinting at being the devil for quite some time, because you're scum and finding the devil is important to you. If true, you would have quickly been irritated with me for dropping hints that early. That would explain why you're so distressed over me being "silly," and why you're not afraid of pushing my lynch.

Actually I didn't come to that conclusion until more recently when I thought about the voting patterns and wagons, so the first part is false. As for how scum would think, I don't know that either, since I'm not. I'm not distressed about you being silly, but I do think you're scum based on your behavior. And to finish it off, I'm never afraid to push the lynch of someone who I believe to be scum. Why would I be? Because I might be wrong? Well, damn, if I were to be afraid of being wrong every time I pushed a lynch in mafia, I'd think I better quit playing.

[ibaesha]

She made a bold statement as to what I've been thinking. It's an assumption that is untrue. I'm not going to ignore it and not respond to it.

[ibaesha]

So it was useless and misleading? I think explaining my thought process when it comes to the conclusions I made isn't either of those, especially when it's been questioned.

[ibaesha]

I'm not scum therefore it isn't misleading at all. Are you saying now that you think I'm scum? She made a flat out statement about my thinking which was incorrect, so I refuted it. You're really stretching here.

[ibaesha]

Go ahead and slap me then because I have no idea what the hell you're talking about now.

[ibaesha]

I wasn't attacking you for responding to her. I attacked the evidence you tried to use to refute her argument. Therefore, you were skirting the issue by acting like I was attacking the fact that you responding to an attack on you.

Alright, I didn't feel I was presenting it as evidence. I didn't quite understand what you meant when you kept bringing up the word 'evidence.' If I skirted the subject, it certainly wasn't intentional. Even so, I'm not quite sure how I can refute such an argument without stating what I actually thought/did. I'm not really going to apologize for not refuting an argument the way you think I should. People can choose to believe or not believe it.

Again, I didn't attack your thought process nor the explaining of it. You had already made a huge post showing how you arrived at the conclusion that Kelly could be the devil. Trying to defend her counter theory by claiming to have arrived at that conclusion at a specific time isn't relevant to your thought process explanation since there is no corroborating evidence at all to give that a shred of truth in anyone else's minds.

I'll concede to this. But again, people can choose whether or not to believe me, or to dismiss it all together if they want.

Again avoiding the issue, responding to my argument with another argument that falls under the same category as the first argument I was attacking originally. No one knows whether you are scum or not, except your scumbuddies if you are indeed scum, and like I said, you've given me no reason to believe you are protown. In fact, you claim that I'm saying that i think you are scum, when I never even mentioned anything about whether or not you could be scum until AFTER the above statement.

I wasn't avoiding the issue as much as not understanding what you meant, which should be obvious by now. As for people knowing if I'm scum or not, nope, they don't. But I do know. So when I respond to a theory such as Kelly presented, my response is going to be based on what -I- know. I'm not going to think 'Oh, that could be misleading.' because from my perspective, it's not.

Also, I did not -claim- that you think I'm scum. I asked you if you did. There's a difference. The question was not rhetorical.

saying when you came to a conclusion doesn't mean shit except to mislead people if you are scum.

I had to ask the question because to me it seemed like you were going from the perspective that I was scum, without considering my responses from the other perspective.

[ibaesha]

MoS: I'm actually fine with you now, even if you're attacking me . I just wanted you participating, which I wasn't really seeing before.

Yos: Pie was quoting me, but messed up the tags. He didn't say any of that, I did. And the rest of it is, yes, I realize you've been doing those things. However, usually I find myself agreeing with much of what you say. And actually thinking along the same lines. It just hasn't been prevalent in this game. Funny part is, after I made that statement, you turned around and did it here:

Well, I do think pointing out "if X happens, we'll be at lynch or lose" when it's not completly obveous (at least, it wasn't completly obveous to me until I thought about the implications of a devil) is a pro-town thing to do. Don't you think it's important for the town to know how many lynches we have before we risk losing? I definatly think that townie stratagy at lynch or lose or at close to lynch or loseis very different then townie stratagy when it's not lynch or lose, so it's important to think about how far we are from that point well in advance, and I think it will certanly effect things like if and when the bishop chooses to use one of his abilities.

Which I fully agree with.

[ibaesha]

I'll be on vacation and very busy (getting my kids ready for the school year) until Sept 5th. I'll check in whenever I have time.

[ibaesha]

I have a lot of catching up to do, but I've skimmed through things. As strongly as I felt about Kelly being scum, I'm having some doubts now. I don't really get the Ubertimmy wagon. Is it based on yellowbounder or is it based on Ubertimmy since he replaced? My suspicion of Pie grows, but I'm not sure if it's my disagreeing with/not understanding nearly everything he says/does or if he's scum.

With a deadline approaching, kae seems like the best lynch. Lurker replacing lurker/non-contributor. I didn't see anything from Bacde that made me lean one way or the other really, but the lack of posting from his replacement is bothersome.

unvote; vote kaebamf

[ibaesha]

Good luck town.