NY 150: Mob Money Mafia GAME OVER

[Pine]

So hey. T-Bone did not inform me this had been resumed. Nor did he prod me. At all. My first indication that this was still on was the Neighborhood QT going active.

Vote: Bunnylover

[Pine]

My first indication after the re-confirmation thread, that is. I didn't bookmark that, and was expecting a mass PM or something when enough people showed up.

[Pine]

Yeah, it's my responsibility to check a game I don't even know is running? No. Mod's responsibility to inform the players that the game has started, Mod's responsibility to prod players who haven't posted. I don't really have beef with T-Bone for failing, I blame the fucking Tigers. But neither should I bear fault for it.

BB (and any other replacements): I am a Town Neighbor. I'm neighbored with Bunnylover. Given site meta, I am quite certain that Bunny is scum. This is supported by the fact that Bunny treated me in our QT as if I were already confirmed Town

even before the game started

. That is

not

a Town reaction, Town Neighbors should be suspicious as fuck of their neighbors, especially in a two person 'hood. He also lurked until called on it, made excuses, and (at least in the pre-Tiger thread) scummed it the fuck up.

Other than Bunny, my biggest suspect was Damon, but that's clearly a dead line of inquiry. I recall having strong Town reads on all participants in the Palisade hydra, except possibly Nacho. Haven't caught up yet, I'll get around to it soon. Bunny needs to die.

PE: Awww, shit. Who let McQueen in here?

[Pine]

Very unlikely, particularly as Bunny has NOT acted in the manner I would expect from an experienced player getting a Town Neighbor PM.

[Pine]

This is totes scumMolla. Like, so hard it's giving me a boner from how obvious it is. With the sputtering, and brashness, and the

daring

us to make him claim? BL trying to cover for his mate just makes it clearer.

Vote: BBMolla

Back to L-2.

[Pine]

VOTE: Nacho

Entered game as a replacement. Immediately soft claimed as being a mason with Mastin. Had a lengthy discussion with me about how masons can't be scum in a normal game. After thread disappeared, retracted soft claim.

This is so scum too. And false as well. You were ridiculously wrong about Masons, and Nacho did

not

claim OR softclaim Mason. The conversation arose from my claim about Neighbors, then people being idiots about how two Town Neighbors were basically Masons.

BL, BB, Slysly. Lynch to victory.

[Pine]

By the way, if we were two Town Neighbors, scum would have offed one of us to "expose" the other in order to get a free mislynch. They didn't.

[Pine]

By the way, if we were two Town Neighbors, scum would have offed one of us to "expose" the other in order to get a free mislynch. They didn't.

Just like you weren't trying to expose Bunnylover?

I don't like the odor Pine's giving off, right now.

UNVOTE: - BBmolla back to L-3.
VOTE: Pine

This is a remarkably stupid post. Par for the course with McQueen, though.

I outed both myself and BL as Neighbors in my first post in the old thread, while BL was trying to keep it hidden. That is

not

what I'm talking about in 286.

If we were both Townies, one of us would have been killed. The flip of a Town Neighbor would more or less condemn the other, giving a free mislynch. Since they

didn't

go for the easy mislynch, that means that there

is

a scumbuddy in the Neighborhood. It isn't me, adding to the volume of evidence condemning Bunnylover.

[Pine]

^Priceless.

"BL wasn't covering for me!" "Here are two things that BL said which are perfect for my defense..."

[Pine]

You serious? In literally the exact same post, BB both denied that BL was providing him a defense, then used two points from BL's posts to defend himself. Kondi, you seriously need to stop refilling your prescription for moron pills.

[Pine]

SlySly, why are you voting Nacho?

VOTE: Nacho

Entered game as a replacement. Immediately soft claimed as being a mason with Mastin. Had a lengthy discussion with me about how masons can't be scum in a normal game. After thread disappeared, retracted soft claim.

This is still just as bad and untrue as the last time you posted it.

[Pine]

No, it's not., You're egregiously misinterpreting and/or misrepresenting what actually happened.

[Pine]

[Pine]

^Does not feel like a Town response

[Pine]

Nacho is pretty obviously Town. Back in your hole, BBscum.

[Pine]

Oversoul, didn't you know? Sly's scum.

This game is depressingly easy. BL, Slysly, BB, kondi. One of those is a derpfuck, the other three are our scumteam.

[Pine]

Wait, I'm counting like this is a Mini. Those four. Maybe one or two of them's still a derpfuck, but that gets us really close to a win by itself.

[Pine]

That's pretty hilarious. McQueen calling someone - anyone - a noob

[Pine]

Tsk. Looks like I may have to warm up Google Images and MS Paint when I get home.

[Pine]

Oversoul, didn't you know? Sly's scum.

This game is depressingly easy. BL, Slysly, BB, kondi. One of those is a derpfuck, the other three are our scumteam.

Is that an answer for my question or just a general statement?

I want Sly to answer.

Both. He voted for the cop because he's scum, though I'm sure he'll want to justify it as a Town action.

[Pine]

I concur. One at a time though, k? BB for today.

[Pine]

He's saying you're using me to buddy up to and gain some easy towncred by pointing out the obvious, especially because you know it's accurate. I tend to agree

[Pine]

@Projectmatt: I was ~80% (<--Made up number) certain that BL was scum based simply on the "2 Neighbors = 1 Town/1 scum" paradigm right from receiving my role PM. Then he tried to buddy up to me in the pregame, treating me as if he already knew I was Town when every indication would have been, were he Town, that I were scum. Then he scummed up the pre-crash. I'm absolutely convinced that he's scum, and absolutely nothing he's said has made me question that conviction. I have no plans for him flipping Town. I suppose I'd cross that bridge when I get there, and probably get lynched for my trouble. Wouldn't blame you much for doing it, either, given my insistence on pushing the setup spec angle on BL. Like I said, not worried about it.

PE: Yeah, Nacho, I'm pretty sure you're talking to a wall there. Sly's the only one who buys his bullshit, and I don't think he can be logicked out of this. He's pot-committed.

PE2: McQueen is voting me out of petulance at being called out for being a 9-year-old. Ironically, this tantrum merely reinforces that assessment, rather than doing anything to discourage it. You're pretty obvTown too, though. Looks like we've got the seeds of a banging Town coalition here.

[Pine]

@390: "Confirmed" is bandied about a lot more than it is actually true. It's simply colloquial for "I'm positive of this person". If that's really the entire foundation of your case, upon which the rest of it completely falls apart, then you're really showing how little you pay attention.

@391: Actually, I hadn't read the new pages of D1 then, and didn't know that Damon had claimed. Hell, I still haven't read them. I'm using a modified replacement strategy. It's not like you ever learn much by reading what came before, and this strategy has never failed me. True story.

[Pine]

There's almost nothing in our QT. Pregame started, I immediately expressed suspicion, BL immediately tried to dismiss suspicion and buddy up to me. Yeah, that went nowhere.

[Pine]

Apologies for my recent absence, I've had very limited access to the site in the last few days. It's been site-wide, confirm here if need be.

Sorry for my absent, a little hectic in my life atm.

Pine -

I forgot to ask, is it possible to paraphrase or quote things from the QT or is that against the guidelines? I can't find anything regarding it in the game rules. I think it would be a gigantic help if you could paraphrase some of the things Bunny said, but yeah

This is what I said summary (in case I'm not allowed to copy+paste):
I claimed I was not scum.
Wonder why Pine was so jumpy to start calling someone scum
I explained what would happen if we assume one of us is scum, saying that the QT will be pointless
Then said that I would like to have someone to reflect ideas off, then decided on his alignment.
Thats all I said.

Pine do you agree with this? ^

More or less. BL has of course portrayed it in the perspective that gives the benefit of the doubt to him, but those are the basic facts. I began with saying that I suspected him, he pled "why can't we just get along" and that confirmed my suspicions that he wanted to use the thread to manipulate me. Town has no use for a Town-Scum Neighborhood, only scum does.

Still good on a BB lynch, Sly or BL are also acceptable.

[Pine]

Mod: Are direct quotes of the Neighborhood QT acceptable?

[Pine]

McQueen, what "trouble" have I caused? And why is "trouble" a bad thing?

[Pine]

I'm still comfortable being lynched, as long as Bunny is auto-lynched upon my Town flip. You willing to promise this?

[Pine]

Arright, so your argument then is to lynch me because I've annoyed and mocked you. I could forgive it if you thought there was a Town/Scum Neighbor dichotomy and had concluded that I was the Scum Neighbor, but you're just a butthurt ten-year-old.

McQueen has absolutely no credibility in my eyes anymore, and I will be making every effort not to engage in his ego-stroking until he grows the fuck up.

[Pine]

Arright, so your argument then is to lynch me because I've annoyed and mocked you. I could forgive it if you thought there was a Town/Scum Neighbor dichotomy and had concluded that I was the Scum Neighbor, but you're just a butthurt ten-year-old.

McQueen has absolutely no credibility in my eyes anymore, and I will be making every effort not to engage in his ego-stroking until he grows the fuck up.

This is the problem right here.
You got it so stuck in your head that someone has to be scum in the neighbor that you refuse to consider anything else.
Holding onto site meta is going to get you lynched, and if your town you need to stop.

IN OTHER WORDS, I KNOW YOU'RE TOWN. AGAIN. AND WILL TRY TO LYNCH YOU IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP AND STOP PUSHING THIS ANGLE THAT YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT.

Seriously people. Bunnyscum self-confirms right here.

Unvote
Vote: Bunny

No excuses, no one else. Bunny. Right now.

[Pine]

Holding onto site meta is going to get you lynched, and if your town you need to stop.

How is this anything other than scum making threats?

HEY, STOP MAKING A CASE AGAINST ME, OR I'LL LYNCH YOU FOR MAKING A CASE AGAINST ME. NOT BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE SCUM, BUT BECAUSE YOU'RE MAKING A CASE AGAINST ME.

[Pine]

WHAT excuses?

[Pine]

WHAT excuses?

Can you vote yourself, now?

I'm quite serious. What the fuck are you talking about? I present an actual case on BL, and you say I'm making excuses. Please explain.

[Pine]

Hey Kondi. You know how I've said you don't suck when you actually play a game? This is it. Keep it up, and I'll stop mocking you.

[Pine]

You're completely right.

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma8

I lol'd

[Pine]

Normal number of scum in a 17-player game is four.

"Townslipping" is a colloquial way of saying that a person did or said something, usually an error, that's very hard to fake, and clearly demonstrates a Town thought process. Several people are saying that when I figured for a scumteam of three, thinking it was a Mini Normal. Scum tend not to even think that way, as they already know the scumteam

[Pine]

I'd remember it and try to do it in my next scumgame, but that'd be really hard to do convincingly, and really easy to screw up

[Pine]

No. Deadline is Thursday

[Pine]

It makes so little sense, he had to say it twice.

If BL is a Townie, then the logic of scum shooting one of us to cast suspicion on the other still makes sense. BL shouldn't be trying to fatalistically "get it over with" he should be trying to absorb a NK.

This is a pity play on BL's part, and an ATE to the max.

[Pine]

Are you really this dense, or do you just play it on TV?

If one or both of us are Town, we wouldn't have fakeclaimed Neighbors. Therefore, we are either both scum, or both actual Neighbors. Therefore, you're suggesting that we're both scum, and I'm pushing my buddy's death, when said death would result in a flip that would get me lynched too.

You

try

and sound logical with the reference to Occam, but you haven't actually applied any reasoning to the situation. Go back to your hole, or do something productive.

[Pine]

I have never wavered in thinking you're scum. No idea how you twisted that into anything different.

Neighbors are not always going to be Town/Scum. But most of the time, they are. Hence my initial suspicions. Then your pre-game behavior, reaction to being suspected, later odd actions, and most recently your "woe is me" massive AtE and self-vote locked me in. If you're NOT scum, you need to go back to Newbie games.

And your proposed "wouldn't scum always claim Neighbor" scenario is moronic. The problem is that when the loser of the double bus flipped, they'd flip as a non-neighbor, bringing their buddy down with them. It's like scum fakeclaiming Masons together - it can be effective, but only if they never get killed. They irrevocably lock themselves together. That's why Andycya deserves chiding, for not thinking through his suggestion. Besides, they could simply double bus the life out of one another to a very similar effect.

Lynch me, scum will probably have to NK you if you are town as I'm fairly sure the town isn't crazy enough to lynch you if you aren't killed.

This quote makes sense, but only if BL is convinced we're Town/Town Neighbors, or if BL flips scum.

I'm still not liking Pine nor Sly.

Whoops! Cognitive dissonance.

[Pine]

McQueen is Town. I'm down with a Palisade Town bloc. (<--That is how you spell it. "Block" refers to an object of some solid substance shaped into a rectangular prism, or an area of a city enclosed by continuous roads, or a defensive maneuver that halts an opponent's attack, or a pulley on a ship, or a few other things. A "bloc" is an alliance of entities with similar goals.)

[Pine]

No it isn't. It might be the first time I've called you Town without qualifying it by saying that you're also laughably bad at being Town.

My bad.

[Pine]

No.

[Pine]

Bunny's at L-1. Let's end this day and move on.

[Pine]

Fine, as long as they're both worthwhile and in time for deadline.

[Pine]

Actually, Wednesday is by far the most popular weekday at church. Mostly people who work intensively on the weekends.

Xkcd taught me that

[Pine]

Scumpoints to chkflip

[Pine]

Scumpoints to chkflip

For hammering on the person you've been tunneling on a day before the deadline..?

Nice.

For hammering before Kondi had a chance to post his catchup. That's exceptionally scummy.

Oversoul, BL simply had a better votecount than I did. He knew he wasn't done. Don't be a jackass, we can't afford a no-lynch.

[Pine]

Are you really this dense, or do you just play it on TV?

Ad Hom right there.

It isn't ad hom when I go on to actually tear your argument to shreds using simple logic. Ad hom is when I attack you instead of your argument - I did both.

[Pine]

BBmolla - 1 (Twistedspoon)
Nacho - 2 (SlySly, Nacho)
Pine - 1 (BBmolla)

Bunnylover - 6 (Kondi, Pine, Chkflip, Bunnylover, Projectmatt, Andycyca)
SlySly - 4 (Knox, Mcqueen, Kise, Mastin)

Matt - 1 (Oversoul)

Twelve and a half hours left. I'll support either of the bolded lynches, and anyone not choosing between them at this point might as well cast a vote for No Lynch

[Pine]

BBmolla - 1 (Twistedspoon)
Nacho - 2 (SlySly, Nacho)
Pine - 1 (BBmolla)

Bunnylover - 4 (Kondi, Chkflip, Projectmatt, Andycyca)
SlySly - 6 (Knox, Mcqueen, Kise, Mastin, Bunnylover, Pine)

Matt - 1 (Oversoul)

That cheek from Sly is making me switch.

Vte: Slysly

[Pine]

Vote: Bunnylover

Let's keep up the momentum.

[Pine]

@Mastin & Nacho: Of those on your list (we disagree about BL, but I'll let it slide for now) I have the strongest scumread on BB, followed closely (and rising) by Chkflip (for his really scummy actions late yesterday).

Unvote
Vote: BBMolla

[Pine]

Ehhh...that's faulty logic. I know that when I'm scum, I often pick people I don't think are going to accrue Doctors or Watchers, and I almost always pick targets that are going to make Town go "Huh?" Well, unless I have an agenda. But that's the problem with NK WIFOM.

[Pine]

So yeah. BB lynch. Go.

BL or Chkflip also accepted.

[Pine]

[Pine]

BL seems townier than Pine imo. I don't understand why people think Pine is town because "BL is scum" when BL seems town to me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

Actually, I'd love that. Why am I scum, BB? I just read your entire ISO, and couldn't find a single reason you've posted, discounting your rant post-crash about how I didn't post at all on D1.

[Pine]

669 looks a little confusing. It was in response to 668. The quoted posts are by far the closest to an actual reason BB's given, his attack on me looks entirely contrived.

[Pine]

@Matt: Sly flipping Traitor has zero effect on my confidence in BLscum, for obvious reasons that Oversoul mentioned. However, I'm not pushing hard on him right now because I'm having independent, errant doubts about BL. The net result is still BL=scum, but I'm very concerned about confirmation bias.

Besides, if BL is scum, he's basically a goon. I have other strong scumreads, and it's very likely they'll flip scum PR. Also, we've already identified BL as a prime candidate. He's not going anywhere

[Pine]

/prodded

Getting a bit impatient with this game.

[Pine]

[quote="In post 710, mastin2"
Also, the neighbors might as well be masons. Look at the town's (extreme lack of) power in this game. We've got a cop, and a miller to counter it, against an investigation-immune-traitor-rolecop and a jailkeeper (roleblocker, potential doc as well). Simply put...we've got pretty much nothing, against a scumteam which has some fairly strong PRs.

So either we've been incredibly lucky and had a lot of PRs dodge the kill...or the PRs we have are stronger than we think. AKA, the neighbors weren't meant to be neighbors, but originally were meant to be masons. AKA, they're both town. (That...made more sense in my head. )[/quote]
We came to a very similar conclusion.

[Pine]

Damn. Quote fail.

Don't see the necessity for a no-lynch unless we actually hit a MyLo.

Still pretty sure that BB is scum, but Knox probably is too, so I'll back your play Mastin.

Vote: Knox

[Pine]

No.

If we mislynch and ou successfully kill, it's 4:2 MyLo. Then we NL. No reason to pick and choose who you want to bring to endgame. You'd probably choose one of the confirmed Town, which makes it harder for Town to get a solid coalition, which makes it easier for scum to manipulate the votes.

[Pine]

Nah. Of the three (BB, know, matt) I feel matt is the least likely to be scum.

[Pine]

Hrm. Fine. BL and I were able to narrow down the two remaining scum to {BB, Knox, Matt}. Matt is the least likely of the three, but we have the ability to just lynch all three of them for the win.

Unvote
Vote: Matt

[Pine]

BL, let's go. We need another flip

[Pine]

Okay, any qualms I had about lynching Matt just vanished with that post.

[Pine]

Wut.

Literally no one agrees with you.

[Pine]

This game is full of fail, I swear to god

[Pine]

Logic:

The only likely members of the scumteam that remain are BB, Knox, and you.

Logic:

We have at least one mislynch available at our disposal.

Logic:

Hang 'em all, let the chips fall where they may.

[Pine]

Matt's fighting waaaay too hard to save his own ass, rather than get someone he believes is scum to be hanged in his stead. You want a case? There it is. He doesn't care who gets lynched, as long as it isn't him.

[Pine]

What the fuck, people

[Pine]

Okay, blood is going to flow for yesterday's debacle. Fortunately for us, we could afford a no-lynch.

Today we hand BBMolla. Tomorrow we hang ProjectMatt. The next day, we hang Knox.

If you disagree with that list, say so RIGHT FUCKING NOW. You'll note I'm not standing firm on the order, that can be discussed. But we're going to AGREE on an order, not fight over it until we no-lynch again.

Anyone arguing about why they THEMSELVES shouldn't be on that list will be considered to be requesting to go first.

ANY QUESTIONS?

[Pine]

Matt-BB-Knox is fine.

[Pine]

Vote: Matt

[Pine]

Just checked BB's ISO. Not once does he mention Knox, and he hasn't mentioned Matt since early April.

HMMZORZ

[Pine]

Cool story, bro.

[Pine]

I don't remember, I just remember that it was pretty clear. The Palisade team is all-Town, possible exception of Mastin. Beginning to suspect him for being so damned agreeable.

[Pine]

That is more than acceptable, BB has been my chief scumread for what? Days now?

[Pine]

Cool story, bro.

lol @ you being unable to admit that you played in a way that makes no sense whatsoever and your response to a blatant logical contradiction is "Cool story, bro." Really, man?

That's not even a little bit what actually happened. My actions made sense, there was no contradiction, an you completely failed to demostrate either.

Hence, it was merely a cool story, one that lacked any substance. Flail and bus more

[Pine]

Thought I already had, actually.

Unvote
Vote: BB

[Pine]

Well, that makes this incredibly easy.

Vote: Splitfarvle

Sorry you're going to get lynched so soon after replacing, but we had it narrowed down to you and Matt. Fortunately, he picked right, and spared us a mislynch while protecting a Townie.

[Pine]

Okay, I just reviewed BB's ISO. He mentions ProjectMatt twice, neither in a negative context. He votes Pizza once with a bad reason, then doesn't mention Knox AT ALL.

I think we should vote Splitfarvle (Knox's replacement) tomorrow.

Your thoughts? We're probably scum's primary targets, so we should be ready to carry on the other's opinions if needed.

This was the only post in the QT last night. BL didn't respond. It's actually rekindling some BL suspicion, as I suspect I may have been the bodyguarded target last night.

[Pine]

Because of the Traitor flips. Scum Neighbor in a 2-Neighbor setup is a negative utility to scum, like Miller or similar is for Town. Traitors are also somewhat negative utility. The scum setup is probably 2 Traitor PRs and 2 Goons, so having one of those goons further disadvantaged would be unreasonable for scum.

Ergo, BL and I are pretty close to Masons.

[Pine]

Such bullshit.

Bodyguard protected no one? I don't think so.

[Pine]

Plus, we already had a full cop flip. Likelihood of a second investigative role is slim.

[Pine]

It makes zero sense for scum to kill Matt. He was obvious mislynch fodder, and probably would have gone next.

[Pine]

Where do you get five scum from? There's no evidence of that.

[Pine]

Obviously. Which is why Bunny's hammer is obviously not a scumhammer.

[Pine]

Well shit. Scum was in the Palisade hydra group after all.

Who originally suggested a Palisade voting bloc?

[Pine]

Leaning towards Mastin, but he was one of the strongest to call out BB, and Mastin's been bussing a lot less lately. Need to read TS, but can't until this evening.

[Pine]

In the last few months he's been bussing less, as I was calling him out for his pattern of turbo-bussing earlier in the year, and correctly nailing him as scum for it. I only pointed out the change in his pattern to him a couple of days ago. His attacks on BB precede that. Don't think you're off the hook, TS.

[Pine]

No, considering I've already claimed.

I haven't decided which of you I want to claim first.

[Pine]

Mastin, claim

[Pine]

What the fuck are you talking about, Mastin? Stating all of that and leaving it open-ended, not saying who it was, looks like you want one of the two of us to walk into some kind of trap, or one of us to jump to a conclusion, because you were just ambiguous enough to apply it to either.

Leaning strongl to Mastinscum now.

[Pine]

Holy Christ, Mastin. I'm not bothering to read all that. You've fallen into your default "OhshitshitshitI'mabouttobelynched" wild flailing mode. The only part I'm going to bother responding to is the only part I cared to read, 841. You state yourself as confirmed Town, when you were nothing of the fucking sort.

You're trying to seriously say that in a Traitor/Traitor/Goon/Other scumteam, the other is a Neighbor, further inhibiting the scumteam? No. Mastin's reticence to drop a vote indicates to me that he doesn't want to confirm TS as Town to me, and wants to hammer as soon as one of us votes the other.

I doubt I could be convinced of TS scum at this point. If he is, he deserves to win, and Mastin's ridiculous behavior the last day justifies the loss.

Vote: Mastin

[Pine]

Dammit Mastin, why do you have to throw off scumtells in LyLo >_>

I was ridiculously obvTown, but attacking both of us without committing was terribad

Game was tainted with all of the modkills. That's not to diminish TS's victory, he ha us fairly in LyLo, but modkills should not have been made. Replacements needed to be found, kills were unfair to both sides

[Pine]

Psh, you would

Props to you for the setup. You made the right choices, and you, at least, deserved the win.