Mini 1351 - Game Over

Tebow · Post Post #6 (isolation #0) » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:54 am

Vote: McStab

. Bandwagon ho!

I'd find it useful if everyone could share with me any meta expectations they have of other players in the game they've encountered before - who tends to be spammy, who is a particularly good/bad logician, who has a tendency to tunnel, etc etc. I don't believe I've played with any of you before, though IS of course is notorious.

Tebow · Post Post #9 (isolation #1) » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:46 am

In post 8, Oso wrote:VOTE: Internet Stranger

Your avatar scared my cat.

Unvote, Vote: Oso

Tebow · Post Post #16 (isolation #2) » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:11 pm

In post 13, Code_X wrote:
Oso is a wagon full of win!
VOTE: Oso

Do you see what I see?

Tebow · Post Post #23 (isolation #3) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:31 am

In post 17, Code_X wrote:If it's the fact he completely ignored your request, then yes.

That, but not just that. He voted for a guy who hadn't posted yet on the basis of his avatar. IE, his random vote was premeditated and he didn't even read the thread before posting it. What better way to avoid making a questionable reaction that to not react at all?

Tebow · Post Post #27 (isolation #4) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:57 am

There's actually a great difference between ignoring a request, and saying why you don't want to go along with it and giving reasons. The latter leads to genuine issues-based discussion, and can give us an insight into your thought process, the former is much scummier because it gives us nothing to go on.

For instance, I can now ask whether you think Code X is completely unaware of what his general meta looks like, or whether you think the disadvantage of letting him know what you're expecting outweighs the obvious protown utility to the town of having a baseline of 'normal' to compare his actions to.

Tebow · Post Post #29 (isolation #5) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:06 am

Also, as far as I can see from comparing their topics, their only experience together is an ongoing game anyway.

Tebow · Post Post #31 (isolation #6) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:19 am

Yeah, that's still against 'Don't discuss ongoing games.' It's kind of odd, but you any talk about how he played in that game could in theory lead to someone raising a point about his play that implicates a partner.

I'm more thinking the lines of 'Is X an obvious VI? Can he construct a rational argument if need be? Is there any reason to suspect that his posting might be unusually frequent/infrequent for reasons unrelated to alignment?' type stuff. So far no-one has identified another player in this game as a VI, which is a relief.

To be 100% clear: did you or did you not read the request before placing your initial random vote?

Tebow · Post Post #34 (isolation #7) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:44 am

From what I can gather, extremely self-assured, somewhat erratic, and willing to use over-the-top rhetoric and personal attacks to push through his agenda. He also seems to be a pretty active player from what a quick meta check can dig up.

Tebow · Post Post #38 (isolation #8) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:38 am

IS hasn't done anything but confirm yet.

Tebow · Post Post #45 (isolation #9) » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:19 am

In post 41, Oso wrote:
In post 37, ChaosOmega wrote:I don't understand the logic of posting without reading the thread, though, even if it's still the beginning of the game.

Ah, difference in play style then.

RVS is a necessary evil. I don't like it much but have no real alternative to suggest so instead of railing at it or trying to end it, I just basically play along/ignore it until it is over with, I am addressed directly (or voted) or the game gets at least 2-3 pages into the game. Then I go back and read from the first game post. Rarely do interesting things start happening from the get go.

This seems antitown, because it basically equates to: I will let other people do the risky/controversial stuff to try to get the game moving. While I'm sure you can provide plenty of examples to back it up, nonetheless I see no evidence of town motive here.

In post 40, Axxle wrote:I feel that just /confirming is a lot different than RVSing.

This. To whit, I don't see confirming as being an in-game action, whereas voting, even randomly, is. I'm treating IS' confirm post the same way I would treat a player posting a boilerplate V/LA notice in each of his games. Whereas premeditating your random vote seems to have marginally more scum than town benefit.

In post 40, Axxle wrote:I feel
What I'm wondering is what the votes on Tangion are meant to accomplish since he hasn't even confirmed to the mod yet.

This is a good point. Do you think these votes are more likely to come from town or scum?

Tebow · Post Post #49 (isolation #10) » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:21 am

In post 47, Axxle wrote:
@Tebow: I think those votes on Tangion are more likely to come from scum, but of course is only a very minor tell. This is just because voting for someone who can't/won't react won't get any more useful information into the town, especially at these early stages when that's almost all we have.

In your opinion, this 'very minor' thing is more minor that Oso ignoring my question?

Tebow · Post Post #53 (isolation #11) » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:48 am

RVS doesn't end by itself.

Tebow · Post Post #67 (isolation #12) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:45 am

The McStab vote does strike me as scummy on a gut level.

Re: Axxle's point against the Tangion voters, it's basically good. In RVS all you can really look for is who's trying to move things along. Of course it's somewhat contrived, nearly all page one votes are unless someone claims in their first post or something. But voting for someone who hasn't even confirmed can't possibly draw a reaction, which makes it especially useless, ergo slightly scummy.

For Oso's case to be true, then Axxle ignored a potential argument against

the player he was actually voting

in order to query the actions of two other players, but not vote them. How is that consistent with someone who is 'manufacturing suspicion?' If Axxle is just reaching for something to attack anyone with, why would he deliberately ignore something done by

the player he is already attacking?

Can't you see that this is the entire point of the IS strategy? Allow someone with actual town motive to make the running and try to find something marginally better than random to vote on, then watch as someone else sees that as a 'reach' and therefore thinks

that

is the first marginally better than random thing to attack. Ergo, the result is an argument with the players in the crosshairs of either side being someone that isn't IS. He's being rewarded for deliberate lurking.

Unvote, vote: Internet Stranger

Tebow · Post Post #71 (isolation #13) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:52 am

Axxle, if Oso making effort to get out of RVS makes him unworthy of a vote, and IS not making any effort to get out of it is scummy but rendered null by his meta, who is worthy of a vote?

I hate RVS. I therefore try to end it ASAP. Not voting doesn't help.

Tebow · Post Post #76 (isolation #14) » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:11 am

Actually, the closest thing to what I'm doing now in that game appears to be Jee's play. Smooth Criminal sheeped him (along with several others). Also, the role of you was played by, well, you, and you were scum.

'Lurking benefits scum' is not a conspiracy theory. You wanna know what's a conspiracy theory? "Axxle-scum came to the thread and saw that three players had voted for players who hadn't confirmed. He chose to use that to make up a fake suspicion of two of them, but actually voted for the third for a different reason while deliberately ignoring a point he could have used to strengthen his argument against the player he was actually voting."

Tebow · Post Post #94 (isolation #15) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:15 am

In post 92, Internet Stranger wrote:That is usually the case guttersnipe. To add to that, they make a grandiose justification to peg that vote on as well, as if they are overcompensating for their crappy vote.

LOL, you go on about 'Bull**** theorizing' and 'grandiose justifications' and you're theorizing that second on the wagon is a scummy place to be? That's pretty much the definition of garbage theorizing. I've never seen any evidence that one particular slot on a wagon is scummy in general, apart perhaps from the tendency that weak scum players often bus late (which is itself not demonstrable until you've got a scumflip).

Not to mention that it's an antitown theory, since if people were afraid to put a second vote on, we'd never get any wagons and so we'd never get anywhere.

Also, please explain how either of these:

I can get behind an Oso wagon.

IS is being actively useless and avoiding action in the early game, where scum feel least comfortable... Well, maybe voting him will give IS something to talk about.

Are in anyway 'grandiose theories?'

Tebow · Post Post #99 (isolation #16) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:04 pm

The point that you were avoiding doing anything suspicious by not doing anything is a very simple one, IS. 'Scum are least comfortable early on' is at its worst still less grandiose a theory than 'second vote is scummy.'

Tebow · Post Post #106 (isolation #17) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:21 am

IS, what do you think of McStab and Code_X?

Tebow · Post Post #120 (isolation #18) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:22 am

In post 108, Internet Stranger wrote:I also dont like the way Chaos globs on to Tebow, its too convenient.

McStab: 4 posts, 3 different posts and the 4th post is a cry for a lynching. Bloodthirsty much? Doesnt read scum to me, but more like impatient townie. For now, at least.

Hard to get a reading on Code because he is probably still smarting from our last game.

My reason for asking these was that McStab is basically to Oso what ChaosOmega is to me. He's followed Oso onto both Axxle and ChaosOmega. I was wondering whether, since IS apparently finds that kind of pattern suspicious, he'd notice it when directed to look in the right area.

Code_X I just asked about because literally no-one was giving him any scrutiny and IS had played with him before, so might have a head start on reading him if he's town.

As for why I'm not asking CO anything, it's because I don't particularly suspect him and he's getting plenty of scrutiny from elsewhere. The people most important to ask questions of are those you think might well be scum but aren't in any sense sure of. (No point grilling people who you think are town, and you aren't going to convince scum they're scum).

Tebow · Post Post #121 (isolation #19) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:23 am

Hanging pronoun there, 'he' in 'If he's town' is IS, not Code_X.

Tebow · Post Post #123 (isolation #20) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:44 am

Given that I share his opinions on you and previously Oso, obviously I don't find those positions scummy. He appears to be wagon-happy, but that's the trait of someone who's trying to cause things to happen, which is a town sign, the polar opposite of what you were doing in early game.

And if you weren't completely ignoring the first few pages of the game, you'd have seen him questioning me on what he apparently thought was an inconsistency regarding you and Oso (why I voted Oso and didn't mention you when CO felt the behavior of the two of you was similar). So, sure, he could be scum, I can see no slamdunk towntells, but I have no positive reason to suspect him beyond the fact he isn't confirmed town.

You love your loaded questions, don't ya?

Tebow · Post Post #133 (isolation #21) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:23 am

So, I did some more IS meta. Looked thru all his mini games as far back as 1241, which is eight games. His first vote comes at these points:

Spoiler: IS' First Vote

So IS waited this late in the game post-wise twice, and this late in his ISO once in the sample of eight (seven really as it's hard to draw anything from 1322) to place his first vote. However the two occasions he waited, he waited a lot longer than this in terms of posts. So it's something he HAS done, but it's not something he ALWAYS does.

The lurking through RVS is emphatically NOT something he always does, because he's posted serious votes with his first post before as town.

The paying far more attention to those attacking him and ignoring other people behaving the same way thing is the most scummy, though.

I'm willing to buy that second vote is scummy theory is genuinely held but it still makes his accusations of 'grandiose theories' hypocritical.

@Echo, if you think it's at all relevant that my initial 'vote someone who's already been voted' vote happened to land on the guy Chaos was voting rather than the guy Code_X was voting, I've got a story about the Illuminati you oughta hear.

I could go either way on McStab. The eleven/thirteen thing seems like a genuine mistake, and one more likely to come from town imo (scum might have mentioned it to their partners pre-game: I could see a 'Oh man, we've only got two of us' or 'Oh man, we've not got any PRs' - 'Yeah but it's only 11p' kind of discussion happening).

I don't like how TvK asks the question 'Sheeptown or scum trying to follow town' rather than expressing an opinion on it or trying to work out if it's true. The Psyduck wagon was mostly 'OMG he put someone at L-1 early!' which is a gutsy move because people are absolutely bound to have that exact reaction, and Ellibereth is experienced enough to know this.

Tebow · Post Post #135 (isolation #22) » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:29 am

So yeah, someone that isn't me or Chaos, POST SOMETHING. It's been over 24 hours with no posts, this is ridiculous.

Tebow · Post Post #141 (isolation #23) » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:06 am

McStab is on my radar, he's a better wagon than ChaosOmega, but like IS said, he comes across as bloodthirsty town rather than necessarily scum. There's always that one guy who wagons a ton. Plus like I said, I think the numbers derp

TvK is a much better wagon if you absolutely won't consider IS (the main point against whom is not his failure to vote, it's his lurking and failing to do any scumhunting, instead just peddling conspiracy theories about the two players who happen to suspect him). He seems to suspect half the town.

Tebow · Post Post #142 (isolation #24) » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:07 am

*Plus, like I said, the game size derp is more likely to come from town. I didn't realize it was 11p until that discussion happened.

Tebow · Post Post #161 (isolation #25) » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:14 am

@Guttersnipe: After I've made the effort to point out why IS is scummy in this game, which is to do with him lurking, coming up with ridiculous conspiracy theories about the players who happen to be attacking him and doing ZERO scumhunting - it has nothing, zip, nada, to do with the reasons why he's notorious (being abrasive etc) - for you just to re-assert the argument I comprehensively rebutted and ignore the rebuttal annoys me immensely.

I AM NOT VOTING IS FOR THE THINGS HE ALWAYS DOES. This is scummy IS. Am I sure it's scum IS? No, but the chances don't look at all bad to me.

IS is trying to make out that I should somehow be suspicious of Chaos, as if Chaos is trying to buddy me. Now let's compare that theory to what actually happens. Chaos jumps the first semi-decent looking wagon to try to get us out of RVS. Pro-town move. He then questions me about an apparent inconsistency between my attitude to you and Oso. IS can tell me he thinks this looks like co-ordinated scum distancing to me all he wants, but he's not going to convince me because I know he's wrong. Then he votes IS, and there's a good case against IS, so that isn't scummy. I don't think voting for a scummy player and trying to move the game along are scummy behaviours, and I don't think it's particularly relevant that another player (me) did these things before he did.

I mean, the very fact that I'm voting IS tells you I think voting IS is a good pro-town thing to do. Why, why on earth, should I be expected to find that scummy?

Frankly, the scenario in which I think Chaos would be most likely scum right now is WITH Internet Stranger.

Tebow · Post Post #163 (isolation #26) » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:27 am

Which game was that?

Tebow · Post Post #167 (isolation #27) » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:46 am

I'd also like IS to make his mind up whether he's accusing Chaos Omega of being scum buddying up to me, or Chaos Omega and I of being scum working together (aka the super-noobish OMG THE TWO PLAYERS ATTACKING ME ARE SCUM TOGETHER!' theory).

Tebow · Post Post #171 (isolation #28) » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:01 pm

Well, IS isn't scumhunting, it's as plain as day. He's trying to discredit the attacks on him. If you think noticing this is scummy, make my day.

Tebow · Post Post #184 (isolation #29) » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:13 pm

In post 182, Arugula wrote:

Out of IS/Chaos/Tebow, I see Tebow as most likely being scum. IS was wagoned quickly, Chaos' attacks and posts seem very genuine, and as IS said, Tebow doesn't seem to care that Chaos is up his ass, which make it look more like Tebow scum than Chaos scum.

Well one, the statement that's he's 'up my behind' is factually untrue, unless you're saying that every time two players suspect the same target, the second one to vote is 'up the behind' of the first one. Secondly, if you think he looks town and sincere, why I am scummy for thinking the same thing? IS accuses me of 'not looking critically' at Chaos. I have, and I see only good votes and protown motive there.

IS' latest post is full of more untruth... my initial vote on him was 'basically RVS' for instance. Uh no, we'd done the RVS, we ended up with Chaos and Oso wagons, and I decided that basically both those players had brought heat upon themselves by posting and trying to move things along were likely bad wagons, while the guy who'd deliberately sat it out to avoid saying anything that might get him wagoned was a much better one.

Tebow · Post Post #185 (isolation #30) » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:29 pm

Reasons why IS is scummy:

1) Lurking through RVS
2) Hypocrisy (accusing Chaos of making 'grandiose theories' whilst pushing 'second on a wagon is scum').
3) Hypocrisy II: Accusing Chaos of 'crawling up my rear' for voting with me on two wagons, when McStab behaved in the exact same way toward Oso and he didn't even think it worthy of comment.
4) He's been trying to discredit me since the beginning: see his 'The guy who behaved like that in my last game was scum' line. He was lying about the comparison - Axxle who played in the same game makes that clear in 82. Anyone else who is interested is welcome to read that game for themselves and note quite how little my play resembles SmoothCriminal's. He was also at best economical with the truth by not saying that he was scum in that game. But worse than that - he can't actually with a straight face make the argument that being active and poking at people and trying to get things moving is scummy, so he just uses the weaselly 'Don't listen to this guy, he might be scum!' type insinuation. It's been a constant throughout. 'Tebow should know better.' Than to do what? Attack him. It's pretty much 'Nice little slot you've got there, it would be a shame if anything were to happen to it.'
5) Playing to survive: 90% of his comments have been about the two players gunning for him. Oso 156 and 158 are critical of IS for the first time this game, and what does IS do? He starts paying attention to, and being critical of, Oso for the first time in the game.

Code_X states that he has been willing to get into fights early on which is town IS. Uh, no. He was quite happy lurking until he came under pressure, and once pressured he started trying to discredit those pressuring him in a manner which I'm pretty sure is not uncommon for scum IS. It's hard to stay under the radar when you've got the biggest wagon.

Tebow · Post Post #188 (isolation #31) » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:39 pm

In post 186, Axxle wrote:
In post 185, Tebow wrote:Axxle who played in the same game makes that clear in 82.

Do be clear I wasn't in the game; I just read though it.

I had the impression you were - noted, my bad.

Tebow · Post Post #208 (isolation #32) » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:30 am

There's a lot worthy of comment just skimming over the last couple pages, but I've have a busy weekend and am too tired to post coherently. Will comment tomorrow, in case anyone was considering it please don't hammer anyone tonight.

Tebow · Post Post #212 (isolation #33) » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:16 am

In post 190, Internet Stranger wrote:Now that I think of it, Tebow and Chaos appear to be ignoring McStab too. Why is that Tebow? Dont you have anything to say about anything else? At least I threw an eye at Oso, why cant you?

Let's add this to the long list of IS lies.

Spoiler: Occasions when I've mentioned McStab

These accusations that I am not 'looking critically' at ChaosOmega are really getting on my nerves. I have looked at him many times - the things people are saying about him JUST AREN'T TRUE.

In post 189, Internet Stranger wrote:Oso asked me several questions and I was inclined to answer them. I think Tebow is playing "damned either way" game with me now.

No, I'm not. Take the McStab question I asked you. That was an opportunity to display protown thought, showing that you genuinely considered following to be a scumtell. You failed on that account. It's not that you answered Oso's questions, which are fine, it's that you started criticizing Oso for asking them, for no other reason I can see other than that his questioning had a tone which was somewhat critical of your play.

Besides, how are any of those points scummy behavior anyways? All youre saying is that youre being critical of me as none of those are genuine scum traits. They dont deal with wagons, they dont deal with interactions with other players (pro and con), they dont deal with votes but they do deal with "IS is being a big meanie, lynch him!!!" with Chaos going right behind him Flava flav style: "yeeeaa booooiiii!!!"

I literally just explained why your behavior is scummy. They absolutely DO deal with interactions (and how your interactions with other players are solely focused on discrediting those who are attacking you) and as for votes and wagons, YOU HAVEN'T MADE ANY OR BEEN ON ANY. So I'm sure you'd love that if people focused on them, wouldn't you? It would deflect attention away from you, which is what you've been doing the whole time.

If I was truly just trying to save my own ass as you state, I would have been all over McStab now. I have seen about 3-4 different opportunities to start including him in the mix and divert all sorts of attention his way, but I havent.

WIFOM.

Gonna make a separate post dealing with everyone else's stuff as this one is too long already.

Tebow · Post Post #213 (isolation #34) » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:47 am

In post 211, Internet Stranger wrote:I need to hear from McStab, but I do think he is trying, or at least faking it really well. Is there anyone that was my wagon on McStab's wagon now?

No single player. The Echo-ConfidAnon slot is (and was also on Psyduck fwiw).

I am strongly suspicious of Arugula right now. TvK was already on my radar for the 'Scummy or town sheep' comment, but I think this is a slam-dunk contradiction:

Arugula wrote:Out of IS/Chaos/Tebow, I see Tebow as most likely being scum. IS was wagoned quickly,
Chaos' attacks and posts seem very genuine
, and as IS said, Tebow doesn't seem to care that Chaos is up his ass, which make it look more like Tebow scum than Chaos scum.

Arugula wrote:You seem oblivious to the fact that Chaos is blatantly buddying you/sheeping you/up your behind or whatever you want to call it. The only things keeping me from voting you are that McStab is scummier and you have posted a decent case against IS.

Arugula is suggesting I'm scum for not suspecting ChaosOmega. The bolded section in the first quote, though, strongly implies that Chaos looks townish. As I said in my last post, there is no reasonable town thought process at all behind 'Well Chaos' opinions look very genuine, but Tebow is scummy for thinking the same thing.' Then the second quote, surely if you think someone is blatantly buddying/sheeping, that's a scum sign? And how is something a sheep if it's also a genuine-looking attack? This looks more like a scumbag who has decided that a particular position is advantageous to hold, then come up with the 'reasoning' to support it afterwards.

Also, the accusations are untrue. In Arugula's entry wall, he said 'Agreeing with you doesn't make someone town.' No, but attacking someone who's genuinely scummy is always at least something of a town sign, and at worst

agreeing with me does not in itself make someone scummy

. You've alleged that he's sheeping/buddying. But he hasn't sheeped - he's voted for the same person, but he's made multiple detailed posts of his own forcefully pushing the case against Internet Stranger. He hasn't buddied either - find me one sentence in Chaos' posts where he either a) Calls me town or b) Says anything along the lines of 'Tebow makes a great point.' The closest is when IS says I haven't looked at him [CO] critically which Chaos calls bullshit (it is).

Additionally, note that Arugula's suspicion of Code_X is caused by Code suspecting his predecessor. Really, I'm trying to work out if IS and Arugula make more sense as buddies, or with Arugula-scum white knighting IS to get him onside.

If IS is town, and it's a big if, I'm almost sure one of Axxle and Echo/Confid will flip scum. Code_X pointed out that putting someone at L-1 and then bleating about someone else putting them at L-1 is kinda scummy. I agree. With Axxle, he hasn't done anything that's particularly actively scummy, but there's nothing there that's especially hard for scum to fake. Doing the meta on that IS/Smooth Criminal game is probably the biggest towntell there, but my gut says that this could be a scum player playing well.

Tebow · Post Post #219 (isolation #35) » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:38 am

Typo. I meant to put "L-2."

Tebow · Post Post #222 (isolation #36) » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:06 am

In post 220, Guttersnipe wrote:So in your opinion L-2 is sufficiently dangerous to be equivalent to L-1? If that's true then I accept it but I don't agree.

Not

as

bad, no. But if you're really that uncomfortable with someone being at L-1, you don't place the vote that makes it possible. Imagine a person who habitually drives 90mph criticizing someone for doing 100. It's not that there isn't a logical distinction, but it's still a bit rich.

In post 221, Guttersnipe wrote:Also you're 100% on the Arugula thing that you mentioned first, but what about Axxle? I don't see much about him in your ISO.

That's primarily wagon analysis. I don't think CO is scum, I'm not scum, and I doubt Psyduck is scum because that L-1 vote was risky and caused the IS wagon to collapse and allowed people who wanted an excuse to defend IS the 'too fast' excuse. It's unlikely a wagon on town gets that high that quickly purely on town votes.

Too right there wasn't a lot on Axxle in my ISO, I don't tend to spend a lot of time talking about my null reads, especially when they're not under attack. It's only when I sat down and looked at the IS wagon as a whole and considered the outside possibility IS might be town that I developed that conditional read, and even then I think Echo is probably the scummier of the two at this point.

Tebow · Post Post #232 (isolation #37) » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:10 am

In post 229, Internet Stranger wrote:Heh, tag team of scumhunting badassery again, Mr Fate?

Since you're technically the new guy, you can start with your townie assessment of all the blokes in this town. Feel free to start with Mr. Chaos.

Alternatively, you can just present to us the obvscum and we can bandwagon him down to oblivion and catch his buddies with their erratic behavior.

Your call.

For those who were wondering, THIS is what buddying up looks like.

@Arugula:

If other people's votes weren't an issue (IE, this was kingmaker or you had a dayvig or something) would you rather kill off Code_X or McStab?

Tebow · Post Post #268 (isolation #38) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:41 am

In post 267, Internet Stranger wrote:Uh Faten why? Why switch to Chaos now? Also, don't you want to see how Arugula vs Code mettles out first?

This really confuses me. I can't see town or scum motive for this post.

IS, what are you trying to achieve by questioning Fate's voting for your number one suspect? (And why are you STILL not voting him despite the fact it's clear to everyone alive that he's your number one suspect?)

Tebow · Post Post #270 (isolation #39) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:56 am

Right. In fact, he's probably not scum at all. But if you think you have scum in your sights, surely you try to get 'em lynched and then worry about who might perhaps be bussing later?

Tebow · Post Post #273 (isolation #40) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:25 am

In post 271, Guttersnipe wrote:Tebow, what is the point of voting in this game? I mean what is a vote for? Is one vote enough to lynch somebody? If no one else in a game is planning to vote somebody, is one vote on that player different from zero votes?

IS, in his 'throw enough mud against the wall and hope something sticks' has accused me of failing to look at 'Votes and wagons.' IE, he's suggesting that players should use vote analysis as an important part of their scumhunting, and yet he refuses to vote, which conveniently means that such analysis would be guaranteed not to point at him. If no-one voted, do you think that scumhunting would be easier, or harder?

It feels to me like pretty much everything IS does is posturing, to make people think 'Oh that wacky IS with his weird game theory attitudes,' and ignore the scumbag that's hiding underneath. If you want someone dead, you'll take the votes for them wherever you can get them. Turning round and questioning Fate implies that his apparent strong suspicion of ChaosOmega was fake. As if he's trying to look town and differentiate between himself and me/Chaos by showing that he's willing to criticize people who are siding with him.

Tebow · Post Post #275 (isolation #41) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:38 am

In post 274, Internet Stranger wrote:What amuses me the most is that Tebow speaks as if he and Chaos are attached at the hip (or the ass in this case). Seems that my observation isnt really all that far off.

You're a broken record.

And it was a Justin Bieber record to begin with.

Tebow · Post Post #279 (isolation #42) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:18 am

In post 278, Fate wrote:Arrugula is town, and Code is trying to keep him open as a mislynch is LOL

Do you have any reason to think Arugula town other than that Code is attacking him?

Tebow · Post Post #283 (isolation #43) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:27 am

In post 282, Code_X wrote:I could live with a Stranger lynch also.

Why are you saying this NOW?

Tebow · Post Post #295 (isolation #44) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:32 am

In post 286, Guttersnipe wrote:Why is everyone in this game so thick?

In post 283, Tebow wrote:
Why are you saying this NOW?

In post 282, Code_X wrote:I could
live
with a Stranger lynch also.

Explain. What's so important about the word live here? Because what I see is him calling IS null for most of the game, then IS gets a third vote and Code_X gets some heat on him and he immediately floats the possibility that he might, maybe, kinda, be willing to support an IS wagon. And the justification he pulls out was true two pages ago. Heck, it was true five pages ago.

Also, I find it odd that you were willing to vote IS a couple of hours ago, but now feel like Chaos is scum.

Tebow · Post Post #303 (isolation #45) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:42 am

In post 298, Guttersnipe wrote:
I'm saying it's pretty painfully obvious that Code X only said that he would be willing to go after IS because he wants to save himself by redirecting the heat to somebody else who makes an easy target (IS). My vote probably played a part in why he posted that (for which I congratulate myself).

Well, that's what I thought too, (well, apart from the 'easy target' bit because IS must be one of the hardest players to wagon on site the amount of people who are willing to jump in front of him and say he's just acting normally and make excuses for him not scumhunting, but he's certainly a viable potential alternative) but if it's alright by you I'd still rather be able to ask Code_X to offer his own explanation without being called thick.

Tebow · Post Post #306 (isolation #46) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:51 am

In post 255, Arugula wrote:@Tebow
I would kill McStab.

In post 304, Arugula wrote:UNVOTE: McStab
VOTE: Code_X
McStab can wait. Code_X needs to die now.

Has Code become scummier than McStab, or is it that you're just willing to lynch whichever of the two is viable?

Tebow · Post Post #311 (isolation #47) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:01 am

In post 309, Code_X wrote:You best get the tissues at the ready Gutter.

Yeah, an appeal to fear will really help us not read you as scum.

Tebow · Post Post #318 (isolation #48) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:35 am

In post 316, Arugula wrote:You conceded to sitting on your vote, you are opening yourself up to wagon hopping on IS,
and your replies have been snarky and unhelpful.

Since when is THAT a scumtell?

Tebow · Post Post #320 (isolation #49) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:54 am

@Fate,

two things.

1. Can you link me to a couple games you replaced into, at least one as scum if you can.
2. As you think this is town IS, how would you expect scum IS to behave materially different to the way he reacted to being wagoned here?

Tebow · Post Post #322 (isolation #50) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:59 am

Name them then. I'm particularly interested in how you act when replacing in.

Tebow · Post Post #324 (isolation #51) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:33 am

Why do you have Code_X in the town column?

Tebow · Post Post #347 (isolation #52) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:29 am

In post 345, Arugula wrote:
In post 344, Code_X wrote:I'd vote Chaos if the only options were him and me. Otherwise I've no inclination to vote him.

I don't think he's scummy and he reads more pro-town than not to me.

Survivalist scum strategy. "Lynch anyone who's not me, even if they are town"

This is such a scummy post. Literally any town player would prefer the lynch of someone they think is town over someone they are sure is.

Tebow · Post Post #349 (isolation #53) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:07 am

Because he's making the point that he wouldn't support that lynch in any other circumstances.

Tebow · Post Post #358 (isolation #54) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:35 am

In post 357, Internet Stranger wrote:My preference is Chaos, he is still slithering away in the shadows trying to mute attention going his way. Tebow isn't helping with this either.

In what way am I not helping? You can lynch him without my vote if you persuade everyone else. Maybe, just maybe, it's that your argument isn't very persuasive.

I'm pretty convinced that the Echo/ConfidAnon slot is scum if IS isn't. Echo puts IS to L-2 then turns around and tries to scapegoat the L-1 voter, and the replacement ConfidAnon comes in and, to use a popular expression, climbs up IS' backside. I mean, seriously, look at that intro post.

I'm not really happy with Axxle pointing out that McStab breadcrumbed, but I think it's probably more of a derptown than scum thing to do - I don't see the sense for scum in pointing out a crumb that you noticed anyway to a potential protective role.

I'm having a hard time working out what I think about Arugula. Mostly because while his early stuff was undeniably scummy, and his latest stuff at best not helpful, I feel like admitting that his entire argument against me was completely wrong is a town sign.

I'd probably go for Code if IS really isn't viable, but I'd like everyone to take another long hard look at IS. He's really obviously playing to survive here.

Tebow · Post Post #359 (isolation #55) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:51 am

Ah, I misread the whole breadcrumb thing. I thought Axxle was saying McStab had breadcrumbed power, not that he was 'breadcrumbing' that he was going to reaction test.

I'm a little worried about McStab since he very openly completely changed the way he was playing because he came under heat for it.

Tebow · Post Post #362 (isolation #56) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:12 am

If you mean two posts rather than three, and that's not exactly hard math. And if by 'cast scum shadow on other people' you mean 'analyse the other cases people are pushing in case my attempt to string your scummy behind up can't muster enough support today.'

I don't find Chaos scummy. Your case on him is a tapestry of lies. Deal with it.

Tebow · Post Post #367 (isolation #57) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:21 pm

In post 364, Internet Stranger wrote:Tebow, that doesn't answer my statement, just enhances it.

Obviously, I can't disappoint Fate now either.

Vote: Chaos

Yeah, you're scum. And I'm going to see you hang or die trying.

Tebow · Post Post #390 (isolation #58) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:27 am

In post 388, McStab wrote:
@Tebow: What do you think about ChaosOmega being scummy? What do you think about the people on his wagon?

He isn't, quite simply. The wagon is based on two notions. One, that's he's sheeping or buddying me. I have emphatically disproved this argument, I can't understand for the life of me why people are still buying it. Secondly, that he's somehow tactically lurking. He's stated that he can only usually post once per day, I don't see how having a limited amount of time to post in thread is scummy. I see no effort to avoid contributing. His posts are focused on IS, but that's understandable for someone who thinks IS needs to be lynched.

As for the wagon, IS may be the most obvious scum of all time. ConfidAnon, now havingfitz, is a pretty scummy looking slot. See the 'Fourth vote on IS/Turns on person placing fifth vote on IS' and 'Climbs up IS' backside on entry to the game' arguments I made earlier. His scummy looking behavior makes more sense if IS is town, though, and I don't think that's likely, so I'm not hugely interested in him atm. Guttersnipe is making a lot of effort and real arguments, I don't really get a lot of his arguments, but I'm leaning town. He feels like he's trying to find scumHe also appears to be willing to compromise to get a lynch he's OK with, which I think is townish. Fate himself is completely null, but I'm still feeling town from Psyduck. I get a feeling based on meta than when Fate replaces in as scum, he likes to white knight. Which means if you [McStab] were ever to flip scum, he'd be a more solid town read.

In post 389, havingfitz wrote:
@Tebow....are there only 2 scum in this game?

I don't know, obviously. But there's 11 players. Given that, you would expect either fewer scum, no scum power, or a lot of town power, or some combination of the above, as I alluded to in the post you quoted. 11-3 with any scum power would be hugely unbalanced.

Tebow · Post Post #391 (isolation #59) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:32 am

*I mean 8-3, obviously.

Tebow · Post Post #394 (isolation #60) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:12 am

I tend to think 'I post once a day' is not a statement of choice. Read it more as 'I go online once a day' than 'I go online several times, but choose not to post on most of them.' Regardless, it's consistent with his behavior across the site in the last couple weeks.

@Fitz: Could you explain why you think IS is a good candidate to be

scum

? All you said on him is that his not voting was 'weird' and his push on Chaos has 'gotten old.'

Tebow · Post Post #398 (isolation #61) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:26 am

RIGHT. JUST SHUT UP. I'VE LOOKED AT CHAOS OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER, AND EVERY TIME I CONCLUDE THE CASE AGAINST HIM IS A PACK OF LIES. I'VE PROBABLY SPENT MORE TIME LOOKING AT HIS ISO THAN ANYONE ELSE'S, TO TRY TO WORK OUT IF I'M MISSING SOMETHING OBVIOUS. IT JUST ISN'T THERE.

Tebow · Post Post #401 (isolation #62) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:35 am

No, that's reasonable. I'm just sick of 'LOL TEBOW ISN'T GIVING ANY SCRUTINY TO CHAOS BECAUSE HE HAPPENS TO THINK THE CASE AGAINST HIM IS BAD AND BEING PUSHED BY THE OBVIOUS SCUM.'

Tebow · Post Post #407 (isolation #63) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:23 am

In post 406, Guttersnipe wrote:This is more like it

In post 405, ChaosOmega wrote:
Bullshit. Feel free to quote me where I said anything to the effect of saying your vote on IS was serious.

In post 395, ChaosOmega wrote:You recanted the vote you put on IS recently saying it wasn't serious.

There ^ - if you weren't saying that my vote was serious how would the above quote make any sense?

You've totally taken that out of context. He said that in response to you saying that IS was scummy.

As for the IS defending thing, well, it's really easy to say why a buddy of IS' would want to discourage a wagon on him without actually committing to saying he's town. Actions probably speak louder than words here.

Just to be clear, Guttersnipe, is your position on IS basically that he's antitown, but he's always antitown, and you think that attacking him on day one was always going to lead to a polarized debate between him and whoever voted him?

Tebow · Post Post #410 (isolation #64) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:07 pm

Yes it is. But that's beside the point. You have said you think he's scum. But everything you have done seems calibrated to further his survival chances. Not posting at all during RVS is more useful for scum than town. Doing nothing apart from screaming that those persecuting you are scum with a blanket of lies about their play is more useful for scum than town.

I feel like i'm banging my head against a brick wall because everything he's done says obvscum, but people are just going 'LOL same old IS.'

Tebow · Post Post #418 (isolation #65) » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:45 am

In post 414, havingfitz wrote:
In post 394, Tebow wrote:@Fitz: Could you explain why you think IS is a good candidate to be
scum
? All you said on him is that his not voting was 'weird' and his push on Chaos has 'gotten old.'

I never used the word 'weird'.

You used the word 'odd.' Big whoop.

I really need to see a votecount. I'd rather lynch Code_X than McStab I think.

Tebow · Post Post #422 (isolation #66) » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:46 am

In post 420, havingfitz wrote:
In post 418, Tebow wrote:
In post 414, havingfitz wrote:
In post 394, Tebow wrote:@Fitz: Could you explain why you think IS is a good candidate to be
scum
? All you said on him is that his not voting was 'weird' and his push on Chaos has 'gotten old.'

I never used the word 'weird'.

You used the word 'odd.' Big whoop.

You misquoted me. In quotations.

My use of 'odd' inferred 'out of the ordinary...not easily explained' whereas I view weird as 'whacky or bizarre'. Which is not what I meant.

The two are synonyms. Both mean 'strange.' It's very notable you chose to go with a very pedantic semantic nitpick of the phrasing there.

Tebow · Post Post #446 (isolation #67) » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:31 am

Chaos needs to claim NOW, in case he has anything confirmable and we need time to get an alternative wagon to lynch.

Actually,

unvote, Vote McStab

so that I don't go offline with my vote in a useless place.

Tebow · Post Post #467 (isolation #68) » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:01 pm

In post 451, havingfitz wrote:
How is my objection to being misquoted "very notable?"

You chose to nitpick an obvious honest phrasing mistake rather than answer the question. And no, there is really no significant difference in meaning. If there had been, I wouldn't have made the mistake of mixing one synonym up for the other between reading the quote in one tab and quoting it in the other.

In post 459, ChaosOmega wrote:So many questions.

Tebow, why did you demand a claim from me and not McStab when we were both at L-1?

I didn't know I was putting him at L-1. You were the presumptive lynch. I wasn't sure I'd get on again tonight, and didn't want to leave my vote somewhere useless where it might cause us to be unable to get a majority on anyone, so I thought i'd stick it on the second biggest wagon in case you claimed cop and we had to scramble to get the second suspect lynched before DL.

Tebow · Post Post #475 (isolation #69) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:07 am

Well, that sucks. (GO ON. TRY TO ARGUE CONGRATULATING THE DOCTOR. I DARE YA).

My initial thought is that that wagon kinda looked almost accidental, and I kinda doubt there was any bussing. If there was, I'd expect it to be early. Off the wagon is a better place to start imo.

I'm actually now leaning a lot more town on IS. He's still individually scummy as anything, but I'm really not sure someone who was scum with McStab would make this argument:

IndividuallyScummy wrote:If I was truly just trying to save my own ass as you state, I would have been all over McStab now. I have seen about 3-4 different opportunities to start including him in the mix and divert all sorts of attention his way, but I havent.

It kinda reads "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT HOW I'M

NOT

VOTING FOR THIS SCUM!" There's some wifom here, but I think the simplest explanation is that IS actually thought it was a good argument, which means he was unaware of McStab's alignment.

Fate I'm leaning town on, because he loves to bus when scum and as I said I get the impression he likes to white knight town players as well. So his town read on McStab was probably genuine. Not a cast iron read as he's smart enough to be aware of his own meta, but not today's top candidate.

Axxle's dead and was obvtown anyway.

Vote: Code_X

Tebow · Post Post #476 (isolation #70) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:21 am

Looking at the wagon, Guttersnipe obviously had no need to switch there. He could have got the town lynch then bussed the following day for similar amounts of cred.

Arugula's vote would seem to make more sense as scum if McStab were town (a McStab town lynch would have kept the IS/Chaos dichotomy going for another day, plus he had to know I preferred a McStab lynch to a CO one which means there was some risk there).

Maestro's reaction to the quickhammer looks very much like a genuine town 'Oh heck, dead cop' type reaction.

Havingfitz is most likely busser, and with the suspicious behaviour of every occupant of that slot, is a clear #2 suspect. He could quite easily have replaced in, concluded Chaos was likely to be lynched without needing his vote, and chosen to stay off it.

Tebow · Post Post #485 (isolation #71) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:55 am

In post 477, havingfitz wrote:If you're town Tebow you're an idiot. Feel free to get upset about ad-hom.

If you're scum, disregard the idiot comment.

Right back at ya.

HavingFitz wrote:
I like how you go after the person who started the McStab wagon when there was no need to....chaos' wagon (assuming he is town as I have stated I believe) was well on it's way to a lynch.

Yes. Precisely. This is exactly why you make sense as scum. The Chaos wagon didn't appear to need your vote. Those who voted later put McStab in real danger, which makes their votes less likely than yours to be distancing. If you want to dispute my points that Maestro's reaction to the hammer looked like he was expecting a townflip, or that there was little to be gained for Guttersnipe to switch and hammer his buddy without a claim when Code seemed certain to be hammered, go ahead.

HavingFitz wrote:And why did you ask Chaos to claim when he was at L-1 but not McStab when YOU put him at L-1?

I've already answered this. Reading is tech.

I'm surprised axxle was the nk...I didn't consider him obv town, at least not after his hammer.

It wasn't Axxle who hammered, it was Guttersnipe. Who's the unintelligent one again?

Tebow · Post Post #487 (isolation #72) » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:18 am

I didn't want to say it yesterday (for fear that pointing it out would get him nightkilled) but Axxle's reaction to the question about what Chaos town/scum flips would say about me was REALLY townish. It seemed obvious to me that Axxle was afraid that scum would use the information to better decide who to NK and who to push for mislynch. (If he says a Chaos townflip would basically confirm me, then I'm more likely to die overnight, if he says the opposite scum would feel more confident pushing my mislynch today).

Tebow · Post Post #499 (isolation #73) » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:50 am

Why are people assuming three scum? Two seems much more balanced for an 11p game, especially since the dead scum was a rolecop.

Tebow · Post Post #503 (isolation #74) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:11 am

LOL, Code_X's vote wouldn't of course have

anything

to do with me coming straight out of the gate and voting him today. How exactly is McStab trying to sow the seeds of mistrust between me and Chaos an associative tell on either one of us?

It seems to me like pretty much no-one other than me has commented on Echo/ConfidAnon/havingfitz recently. I understand that it can be hard to read a repeatedly-replaced slot, but I'd like folks to try. IS is scum/vote Psyduck for voting IS/IS is awesomeness personified/IS is a secondary scum read feels like each player trying to say whatever the most convenient thing is about IS at a given time for what his scum agenda was.

Tebow · Post Post #505 (isolation #75) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:24 am

If McStab's position on me/Chaos had nothing to do with it,

why did you quote that?

Why did you not say 'Was avoiding the McStab wagon?' Yes, I obviously wanted to wagon someone who wasn't Chaos, who I had a town read on. I preferred you to McStab because you were scummier. You're still scummy, and weren't on the McStab wagon, so you're the best lynch candidate today as well. The hypocrisy of an 'avoided the McStab wagon' argument from a guy who wasn't on it to a guy who was is glaring.

Tebow · Post Post #514 (isolation #76) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:41 am

In post 507, Guttersnipe wrote:

I've been obsessing with Maestro a little bit over the last few days because he really seems scummy to me for certain reasons which mostly have to do with active lurking and stuff like that (AND THE FACT THAT - and I will produce the post if necessary - he LITERALLY CALLED FOR THE DEATH OF A TOWNIE yesterday. It doesn't matter to me a jot that I was the townie - it's the fact that he LITERALLY SAID we should kill a TOWN PLAYER that convinced me he was scum), but he made some nice solid attacks against McStab so I can't really justify thinking of him as scum. So... I dunno. maybe he's just a completely terrible player.

Point me to this. I've done the ISO, and I don't see it.

Tebow · Post Post #518 (isolation #77) » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:08 am

In post 516, Maestro wrote:@Tebow: ...on second thought, it's not exactly clear what you're saying you didn't see. So I may or may not agree with you. Explain please?

He claims you stated you literally wanted to kill a townie.

By which I took it he was implying that you said something along the lines of that you didn't care whether Guttersnipe was town or not, he had to die anyway. Whereas to me, the obvious reading of your posts was that you thought if McStab flipped town he was almost certainly scum.

Tebow · Post Post #539 (isolation #78) » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:12 am

Chaos, I agree that gut says scum are unlikely to have bussed here (well, unlikely to have bussed in such a way as appeared at the time to be putting McStab in real danger) but eliminating those on the wagon doesn't just leave Fate and IS, it leaves Fate, IS, and Code_X.

Incidentally, take a look at #196 by Code_X... in the same post he puts an FOS on McStab and calls him a town read.

Tebow · Post Post #541 (isolation #79) » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:40 am

Erm, I was on Code_X from my first post. I agree that he is the most likely off-wagon scumbag. It's precisely because Fate is so fond of bussing (and white knighting) that I wouldn't expect him to waltz in and defend a scumbuddy like that. Though, if it was 9-2, I guess it's possible because a day one scum lynch would be devastating.

I'm pretty confident Guttersnipe, Maestro, and Chaos are town. If there's a busser, it's HavingFitz or maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Arugula. But Arugula gets a lot more townpoints for his McStab vote than Fitz gets for his. I'm not sure which of Fate, you, and Arugula would be #3 at the moment.

Tebow · Post Post #553 (isolation #80) » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:59 am

Where was your IS suspicion when he didn't suspect you? When he was tunneling equally hard on someone you claim to have thought town?

Tebow · Post Post #558 (isolation #81) » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:17 am

In post 181, McStab wrote:
Code_X: Could be scum trying to fly under the radar. I hadn't really noticed till doing an ISO, but I don't much like the reluctance to move off of TVK. Lurking is bad, but there are other candidates that would make more sense. Leaning scum.

Two posts later.

In post 328, McStab wrote:
Let's get off these dumb IS and Code_X wagons and get on a real wagon, the Guttersnipe wagon.

Vote: Guttersnipe

Tebow · Post Post #560 (isolation #82) » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:33 am

You think him calling you scummy early on but leaping to your defense when you're taking heat implies that you're NOT his buddy?

Tebow · Post Post #604 (isolation #83) » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:41 am

OK, so I'm busy for a couple days and come back to a hammer.

I've only had time to skim the last page or so, but I don't think there's anything that important there.

Fate, the Code_X/Arugula feud looks bad for both, but I think Arugula's vote for McStab deserves a fair amount of town credit, because he had to know I would prefer a McStab lynch to a Chaos one, so it put McStab in real danger. He was also consistently anti-McStab, and had firm town reads which I think is unusual for scum early.

I'd like people to look at my argument for why I am skeptical of IS scum and either tell me why I'm wrong or drop it.

Tebow · Post Post #606 (isolation #84) » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:50 am

I'd take them into account if I felt they had merit. Your opinion on whether scum bussed isn't going to be any more likely to be right than my own, ESPECIALLY since you weren't on the wagon and were trying to deflect. Also, I'm still not convinced you're town.

Oh, and in case I die overnight, we should MC tomorrow.

Tebow · Post Post #607 (isolation #85) » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:51 am

Also, Chaos, Maestro, and Guttersnipe are town and shouldn't be lynched, ever.

Tebow · Post Post #616 (isolation #86) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:08 am

A serial killer flip is surprising, considering only one kill a night. We're almost certainly looking at 8-2-1, 7-3-1 would be hella unbalanced.

I want thoughts on massclaim.

Tebow · Post Post #618 (isolation #87) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:54 am

I'd agree with 'no real danger' bussing on McStab. As noted before, I think you (HavingFitz) may have assumed McStab was in no real danger, gone for a little light distancing, and then seen it go horribly wrong. In fact, as of now that would be my top hunch. I'm unsure between IS and Fate. I suppose Elli could be ballsy enough to go for a 'too scummy to be scum' type move on D1. Still maintain town reads on Maestro (seemed to think McStab would flip town) and Chaos.

Would like anyone suspecting IS to comment on the question I asked about him at the end of yesterday.

Tebow · Post Post #621 (isolation #88) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:10 am

In post 619, havingfitz wrote:
In post 618, Tebow wrote:As noted before, I think you (HavingFitz) may have assumed McStab was in no real danger, gone for a little light distancing, and then seen it go horribly wrong. In fact, as of now that would be my top hunch.

I think it's hilarious that you're laughing at an argument that is clearly perfectly reasonable. In fact, that you tried to make a 'there was no need to bus' argument is a display of excellent comedic skills. Because, like, scum aren't at all MORE likely to distance when there's 'no need' ie no apparent likelihood of putting their buddy in danger. Scum never distance. Oh no.

HavingFitz wrote:
Tebow wrote:Would like anyone suspecting IS to comment on the question I asked about him at the end of yesterday.

Repost/quote it.

In post 604, Tebow wrote:
I'd like people to look at my argument for why I am skeptical of IS scum and either tell me why I'm wrong or drop it.

Here, further referring back to THIS, which was ignored all day:

In post 475, Tebow wrote:

I'm actually now leaning a lot more town on IS. He's still individually scummy as anything, but I'm really not sure someone who was scum with McStab would make this argument:

IndividuallyScummy wrote:If I was truly just trying to save my own ass as you state, I would have been all over McStab now. I have seen about 3-4 different opportunities to start including him in the mix and divert all sorts of attention his way, but I havent.

It kinda reads "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT HOW I'M
NOT
VOTING FOR THIS SCUM!" There's some wifom here, but I think the simplest explanation is that IS actually thought it was a good argument, which means he was unaware of McStab's alignment.

Tebow · Post Post #626 (isolation #89) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:06 am

In post 624, havingfitz wrote:Wow...the triple laughing response to my laughing at you. Good comeback Tebow (Will we now get a Tebow triple roll? Stay tuned...)

I won't comment on your stupid bus comments. My chuckle was at your "hunch" and how wrong it is. But as town you are entitled to suspect everyone and as scum you are obligated to cast suspicions so I will retract my laugh. You go guy, carry on with your ~scumhunting.

As for your hunch...you think I just replaced into a game and plopped a vote on my lone (as we are both agreeing to atm) partner...and in addition, a rolecop? When even if I did think it was going "horribly wrong" as you hypothesize I had every opportunity to move over to the more robust Chaos or Code wagons? And if there was bussing on McStab I would "hunch" back that you are a prime candidate for executing a bus.

The McStab wagon grew incredibly quickly. He went from two votes to L-1 in the time between two of your posts. Quite possible, you had a 'safe' distancing vote on and then the wagon got out of hand before you could do anything. Why didn't you hop off before L-1? There was no need, he wasn't in danger. Why didn't you hop off after? Because it was at L-1 and it would have been really obvious.

As for your hunch, YEAH REALLY, I DELIBERATELY BUSSED AND PRETENDED THAT I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS DOING IT, SO THAT I COULD GET THE LEAST TOWNCRED POSSIBLE. Seriously, that argument is laughable.

Meta Bonus challenge to Tebow....find one game where scumMe bussed a partner AND find one 2-scum (non-newbie) game where one scum voted out their lone partner (and let's not count hammer's since those are easy busses).

I don't care about your meta. You're aware of it, so it's null. Oh, and let's challenge me to find a two-scum game where a scum voted for their partner, but exclude 95% of the 2-scum games that have ever been played on site? Nice one. I'd have half a mind to call your bluff, except that finding even a couple of 11p games is likely to take hours.

You've done literally nothing to allay my 'havingfitz most likely busser' suspicion.

In post 625, ChaosOmega wrote:
I'm against it for the time being. With a SK flip, the set-up pretty much has to be 8-2-1. Assuming that, we're at 6-1 right now. Only 1 kill N1 can be explained as both mafia and SK targeting Axxle, but 1 kill N2 with the SK death implies a roleblock or protection (or Guttersnipe submitted no-kill, but that's pretty dumb to do as SK, so I'm not considering it). I don't see the appeal right now in revealing either of those actions, so I'd like to hold off for the time being. Lynch IS today, if he's not scum, we give our power roles another night to work without scum knowing who they are, they get a better chance for success, we massclaim D4 with 5/6 people and go from there.

My position is this: I'm confident in two players' towniness. If I can confirm any one of Fate/IS/Havingfitz/Arugula (Arugula being some way behind the other three, who are fairly close - I don't think a bus was particularly likely, but I have reservations about seeing IS or Fate as scum) then at the very worst I'm sure I will be voting scum in Lylo. I would rather massclaim immediately after the successful protection, than risk a doc dying tonight without saying who he protected, or a roleblocker without saying who he blocked.

The point about the Chaos/IS endgame is a good one, mind. If that's a townfight, then if I were scum I'd want both of you alive at the end. Although that reality also suggests killing one of you for the frame value.

@

IS:

If you had sole control of the lynch, in which order would you kill the following and why: Fate, Fitz, Chaos?

Tebow · Post Post #628 (isolation #90) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:21 am

Fitz, you're maddening.

Tebow · Post Post #631 (isolation #91) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:19 am

In post 630, Internet Stranger wrote:

Tebow, thats kinda shady of you to ask me to rank people and not include yourself on that list.

No it isn't. I want specifically to know your opinions on those three, not just in general but relative to each other, because you've been stridently critical of all three recently. Money/mouth.

Also, why has your whole 'Derp I don't vote until I'm sure' thing gone out the window?

Tebow · Post Post #634 (isolation #92) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:41 am

In post 632, Internet Stranger wrote:
I assume that Fate is going to vote for me and im unsure how you and Maestro are going to vote.

You and me both. I have this nagging feeling that Fate's morale appears to be down.

Tebow · Post Post #635 (isolation #93) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:44 am

@Fitz, working on your assumption that scum would not bus in this setup, does this mean you would be minded to clear Fate on the grounds that McStab voted for Psyduck on day one? It was a third vote.

Tebow · Post Post #639 (isolation #94) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:18 am

In post 636, havingfitz wrote:IS...don't take it so personal. The only feral rage I have is towards Tebow.

And I towards you. I've made a compelling, reasonable case for why you're the most likely busser, and the best I've got out of you is the equivalent of NO U.

Tebow · Post Post #649 (isolation #95) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:33 am

In post 640, havingfitz wrote:
Regarding your case on me...compelling like a bad science fiction novel? As for the best you've got out of me...what do you expect? I'm not looking at you as scum at the moment ergo I'm not going to waste my time trying to come up with a case on you duh

Compelling as in strong and logical.

What annoys me is that you appear to agree with most of the underpinning assumptions of my scumhunting (Maestro/Arugula unlikely to bus) and yet you think my having you as a significant suspect is somehow ridiculous.

Today, we're clearly lynching Fate or IS and I'm very much torn. I'd rather you spend much more time helping me figure out which of those is the better lynch and less time feigning outrage that I have the temerity to get a scum vibe off of you.

So... I feel like Fate is mailing it in, and that this is because he doesn't like his chances since McStab went down. You feel this is plausible?

EBWOP: Holy flip, five fate posts?

Tebow · Post Post #652 (isolation #96) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:37 am

In post 647, Fate wrote:

Tebow is town I don't think he'd make post 634 as scum (reading correctly my lowered morale due to me being a replacement and being wrong about McStab) and not just go with the momentum on a Fate wagon (since I'm easy to mislynch and haven't been contributing often or correctly.)

FYI, I'm reading your lack of morale as indication of scum.

Tebow · Post Post #658 (isolation #97) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:48 am

In post 655, Fate wrote:Tebow sometimes you need to take a step back and agree YOU CAN BE FUCKING WRONG ABOUT WHAT SCUM WOULD OR WOULDNT DO, aka "arugula wouldnt bus wdf"

I could be wrong. Make a case.

Because I've taken quite a hard look at Arugula across the site, and he seems to me to be getting toward VI territory. He always has poor logic etc, manages to come across as dishonest and opportunistic in everything he does.

BUT

In this game, he based his early game play around two strong town reads. Both of whom, with McStab flipping scum, would be actual town players. Ruling out people like that is dangerous for scum.

Plus, he played consistently with his claimed reads. Day one, he was pushing Code_X most of the day, based on an original argument that no-one had raised before, albeit one which kinda reads omgus, and had a certain sense to it: Code_X pushing a player for acting in a way Code knew was consistent with his town meta. So he pushes that first, but in keeping with his Chaos town read, he compromises to lynch scum. He could very easily have played the tunneled derptown and let Chaos die, but he didn't. Day two, he returns to the guy he's thought is scum all along, and didn't vote for the dead scum.

Forget the 'factually wrong' thing. It's not alignment relevant, Arugula just sucks. Don't you think scum have motive to check that their attacks are reasonable and hard to paint as scummy? Then he comes out and accuses the player who defended the dead scum the hardest of saying he loved the dead scum wagon. That's just derp.

Tebow · Post Post #661 (isolation #98) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:51 am

He went off McStab because it appeared no-one else was interested. He returned at the most crucial juncture.

Tebow · Post Post #667 (isolation #99) » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:01 am

^ The rare valid point.

It's so much harder when you present EVERY LITTLE THOUGHT that passes through your head as if it's Gospel truth.

Tebow · Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:05 am

Hey. Hey Arugula.

Your justification for attacking Fate was factually incorrect.

Do you not have a reaction to that being pointed out?

Tebow · Post Post #689 (isolation #101) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:49 am

In post 679, Internet Stranger wrote:
Especially you Tebow, you don't think Arugula to be scum right now, is what Fate saying really convincing or does it just sound good because he is suddenly pulling his meta out when he wasn't all game prior to this. We weren't "important enough" to him earlier, so why are we now?

I don't. But it's Fitz vs Arugula in terms of 'Who would I end up wanting to lynch if neither IS nor Fate is scum.' It may well come down to those two in endgame if the game isn't over by then. And Arugula hasn't had a huge amount of scrutiny, so it does no harm to press him on the questionable parts of his play.

@ Arugula:

Your last post contained plenty of whining about how it's unfair to characterize you as a poor player, and absolutely no reaction to it being pointed out that your stated reason for your vote is completely and utterly untrue. Please respond to this.

Tebow · Post Post #693 (isolation #102) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:06 am

Arugula:

In post 623, Arugula wrote:VOTE: Fate

He "loved" the McStab wagon and disliked the Code wagon for little reason. It reads to me like he was trying to get towncred for staying off the town wagon and being a propent of the scum wagon.

It is not true that he "loved" the McStab wagon. He was saying McStab was town and a bad wagon from the moment he replaced in. He also didn't dislike the Code wagon for little reason, he made it very clear his position on Code: he found him scummy and attacked him out of the gate, but soured on that wagon because you pushed it in a manner he apparently found really scummy.

@ IS: Arugula was on McStab initially, went off McStab because 'no one else was interested' in a McStab lynch, and went to Code. He returned to McStab close to deadline when McStab started to look viable again, then went full bore after Code_X the next day.

Tebow · Post Post #696 (isolation #103) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:35 am

Well, sure, it arguably makes him look worse. But it also makes it look like you're committed to trying to paint him as scummy no matter what he does. He's for the McStab wagon? You say he's distancing. He's against it? He's defending a buddy.

Tebow · Post Post #700 (isolation #104) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:06 am

Maestro, have you played with Fate before?

Tebow · Post Post #702 (isolation #105) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:19 am

He's famous for acting like this. CAPSRAGE and claiming to have busted the game open and multiposting and more screaming CAPSRAGE.

Tebow · Post Post #704 (isolation #106) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:36 am

Both. Occasionally burns people who think 'This is just town Fate.' In fact that's why I was initially skeptical of him today, because he didn't seem to be care, and that made me think he was scum who'd written it off as a lost cause. Of course, as soon as I'm writing a post to that effect, he ninjas it with five posts of fury.

Tebow · Post Post #706 (isolation #107) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:50 am

I didn't think it was particularly alignment relevant. There's a case against Fate, but 'He's getting angry' isn't it.

Tebow · Post Post #708 (isolation #108) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:10 am

Yeah, pretty much everyone the first time they play with Fate think 'WOW that's totally disproportionate.'

Tebow · Post Post #720 (isolation #109) » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:42 pm

How is it a scumslip when you don't think there's that number of scum? Surely if there aren't 3 scum, that completely disqualifies it from being a slip?

Think about what might influence a townie's opinion on the number of scum in either direction.

Tebow · Post Post #793 (isolation #110) » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:55 am

In post 790, Maestro wrote:
LOVE THE DEAD QT.

@McStab: Good. thing the "no spoiling rule" was there...dear God, what an entertaining read. I saw one mention of my name (other than Guttersnipe's anger) and it was "there's no way it's Maestro."

Yeah... I had a town read on you from you seeming to be convinced McStab would flip town, and that 'No way' comment was in response to you muddling up who was lynched and who was NKed. You were easily my top town read.

At least until the last day, because when there's a player who no one has suspected all game, and someone as scummy as havingfitz dies over them, that's a big red flag.

Really, it made no sense for scum Chaos to kill me as the one player who had him as town. And the frustrating thing from a dead perspective was knowing that chaos was clear but Fate hadn't been allowed to claim his target. But in the end, I think I'd have gone for arugula in ensgame anyway.