Mini 1351 - Game Over

[McStab]

In regards to Meta, I haven't played with anyone here before, so I have nothing to go off of.

Vote:Tangion

[McStab]

I admit it's weak, I even said as much, but we don't have much besides votes do we? I've only played two games on this site, and one I replaced in, so I don't have a lot of experience with RVS.

We have people's reactions too.

Unvote, Vote: Axxle

[McStab]

IS is being actively useless and avoiding action in the early game, where scum feel least comfortable, McStab jumps on the Axxle bandwagon at an opportune time with iffy reasoning, and I still don't have great feeling about Oso. Too bad I'm not a triplevoter.

Well, maybe voting him will give IS something to talk about.

unvote, vote: Internet Stranger

Also,

V/LA until Saturday evening.

You caught me, looking for opportunities to put people at L-5. /sarcasm

I'll do it now too!

Unvote, Vote: ChaosOmega

[McStab]

If you all hate RVS so much let's get some serious wagon action going

[McStab]

In regards to putting people at L-3, I actually was mistaken earlier. I'm in another Mini Normal with 13 and it didn't register to me that this had eleven, as opposed to 13, players. My bad.

I'm getting a good town vibe from Axxle, I wanted to see with my vote whether someone would jump on the bandwagon with enthusiasm or how Axxle would handle the pressure, and it largely didn't work. The only thing I got from it was that Axxle continued unperturbed and still worked on scumhunting, which is essentially what I think is a very townish way to respond to that. I also felt Tebow's reaction to be appropriate, mentioning the apparent scumminess of the vote but not using it as an excuse to cease scumhunting elsewhere.

Psyduck's move of putting IS at L-1 is very bad for the town and comes across as a plausible scum move. If anyone (and judging from most of your posts, at least a few of you think I fit this criteria) was bloodthirsty enough to hammer, it could cause a mislynch that easily lets Psyduck shift the blame towards the hammerer. Alternatively it could also force a PR to claim early in panic, which is also bad.

Unvote, Vote:Psyduck

[McStab]

I'm gonna be busy for the next 12 hours or so but I'll do a big catchup post when I get back.

[McStab]

Here's where I stand currently on everyone:

Code_X: Could be scum trying to fly under the radar. I hadn't really noticed till doing an ISO, but I don't much like the reluctance to move off of TVK. Lurking is bad, but there are other candidates that would make more sense. Leaning scum.

Echo/ConfidAnon: Echo seemed ready to sling votes at whoever he felt was acting most suspicious. He also was looking for associations between people, which strikes me as a fundamentally town quality. Leaning town.

ChaosOmega: Town. Although he is targeting IS with alot of ferocity, he's substantiating his points and it's striking me as genuine scumhunting, as opposed to tunnelling.


I will continue this and I'm sorry for apparent lurking, a bunch of stuff has come up near the end of the week that I couldn't foresee.

Mod

I will be going V/LA till Monday.

[McStab]

Coming back to L-1, what a pleasant surprise.


@arugula - welcome to the game, and you're totally correct that my normal meta is "long, well-crafted posts." Until this point, I had decided to try a more brief posting strategy (it's much easier on my time), however I can see that I am coming across as suspicious and/or easy target for scum, so I think I will return to my normal style.

First, since this seems to be the most pressing issue, I'll justify my actions:

Post #19 - RVS
Post #58 - As Code_X said, it was reaction testing. Anyone who doubts this can notice my ever-subtle breadcrumbing of it being a reaction test with my cryptic "We have people's reactions, too". If anyone doubts it's veracity, I didn't stick on targeting Axxle because he dealt with the pressure absolutely fine, practically ignoring it. I reckon that a scum player would've had a kneejerk reaction or at least sweated it out a little.
Post #89 (and subsequent votecount problems) - My arithmetic was legitimately wrong here. I hadn't devoted the necessary time to the game, and as I said, I'm currently in a bunch of games (none of which have only 11 players). I made a mistake, although I can see how that may come across as a lame scum excuse. I would be more disconcerted if you didn't notice the arithmetic mistake though, and you also didn't immediately vote me upon finding it (which would've been what scum would do, looking for any opportunity).
Post #90 - More broadly based reaction testing. Not sure exactly what I was looking for, but I felt as though scum would either try to use that as an excuse to leap on a wagon or they'd target me vehemently for it.
Post #130 - I stand by my vote on Psyduck entirely, for those same reasons. The points I raised there are entirely valid. IS claiming does us no good, and a hammer that early does us no good. Sure, the pressure is good for discussion, but given how bloodthirsty I was coming across, it strikes me as a move to get a pro-town player to hammer another town player.


I'm still quite busy today, so I don't have time to make my post continuing scumreads. I figured I best post this defense while I still have the chance to do so though. I'd ask that no one hammer me until I post my scumreads tomorrow (well, I'd ask no one hammer me at all, but I don't think that's realistic to expect ).

[McStab]

Ok, I've done some ISOs, and this is how I feel about the different major issues today:

InternetStranger seems town to me. He should place a vote though, as Tebow pointed out it's hard for us to get a good sense of his strong opinions. I still doubt he's scum, but it would be far more helpful to the town if he'd put a vote down.

Code_X is obv. town, and anyone who says otherwise really needs to reread his ISO. He's got the most content-filled posts, he's changed his vote based on who appears scummiest to him at the time (not the best wagon at any given time) and he's nitpicky. THESE ARE TOWN TRAITS.

Chaos and Tebow combined are a weird issue. I am getting town vibes from both, but I am uncomfortable with their lack of criticism or even skepticism of each other's alignment. I doubt that both are scum, but I implore each of them to not let the other one buddy up to them so blatantly.Something is amiss here if you ask me.

Guttersnipe is the scummiest target today imo. Do an ISO on him, his excuses to change votes onto opportunistic targets is laughable. He went after me with virtually no evidence - seriously, his big "evidence" post #148 is absolutely useless. No rationale or evidence given. Yet he gets a free by on this post by just about everyone? Just because it's long and has alot of his views doesn't mean it's pro-town, he provides no logic whatsoever. While the wagon on me is still functional, he is convinced Code_X is town (see post #154). After Code_X defends me and grows skeptical of Guttersnipe, Guttersnipe is targeting him as potential scum - see post #200. This inconsistency is consistent with opportunist scum.

Guttersnipe then briefly switches onto IS, the easiest wagon yet of the day, with the logic of not voting being bad for the town. What a revelation! This logic is superthin, like every other rationale Guttersnipe has had for voting, ever.

One post later, he switches to ChaosOmega, with, once again, no excuse but saying "obvscum".


Guttersnipe hasn't contributed any real logic or rationale to this game at all. He's gotten away with it by being super aggressive. Super aggression is a playstyle, not an alignment indicator per se, and his lack of providing any logic or reason with his votes is indicative of not really scumhunting.

Let's get off these dumb IS and Code_X wagons and get on a real wagon, the Guttersnipe wagon.

Vote: Guttersnipe

[McStab]

There's been 150 posts since I last posted my views on Code_X. Note that my point of leaning scum was based on him lurking and not moving off TVK. Both of those have changed and his posts strike me as town. Hence "leaning" as opposed to confirmed, and he now fills my criteria of what a pro-town player would be doing.

Just because you didn't vote Code_X doesn't mean you didn't target him as scum; see Post #200.

Your "evidence" on me amounts to this:

1. A reaction testing vote on Axxle which I prefaced with "We also have people's

reactions

. I didn't think I had to breadcrumb that any more obviously but clearly it flies over some people's heads.
2. A mathematical error. As pointed out earlier this isn't an indicator of alignment, and even if you could argue that, it's more of an indicator of a town alignment (scum would likely be more aware of it).
3. Me voting Psyduck for him putting IS at L-1 so early with "bloodthirsty townies" around.
4. Mild lurking, of which if you check my meta, I do not post often anyway.


Your evidence is thin and weak and you've only gotten away with it because until now no one's scrutinized it. You're scum or town that's gotten way too into a single person.

[McStab]

Before I even consider getting on any of these wagons, I want to hear some answers from a few players to some questions that are pretty relevant given the playstyles I've seen here:

@ChaosOmega: Why do you think Tebow is town? Have you ISO'd him or considered him possibly being scum at this point? You've provided reasons for why other players are town, but not so much for Tebow, and yet you seem to consider him conf. town from your behaviour.

@Tebow: What do you think about ChaosOmega being scummy? What do you think about the people on his wagon?

@IS: What do you think about Guttersnipe?

@Guttersnipe: What do you think about IS?

[McStab]

Well, out of the four viable wagons today, these are my views on all of them:


Myself - Obviously not voting myself. Every argument against me today is founded on scum looking to go after people who post less and a ton of sheeping from early suspicions. Obviously not everyone who's been on my wagon is scum, but I find it suspect that Maestro and havingfitz have both been quiet on just about every other wagon today and have been actively lurking.

IS - Given IS' meta, I haven't noticed anything particularly scummy about him. Depending on flips today and tomorrow it should either cement him as a pro-town player or scum.

Code _X - Sound logic, content-filled posts and decent activity. Town.

ChaosOmega - While I'm still far less comfortable lynching ChaosOmega than someone like guttersnipe or havingfitz, Chaos himself summed it up nicely when he said we need to choose between the four wagons. It's the lesser of four evils, IMO. The buddying up to Tebow this entire day strikes me as uncomfortable, especially since Tebow seems to unanimously be seen as a pro-town player. The whole thing reeks of scumChaos trying to buddy up to Tebow.

unvote, Vote: ChaosOmega

[McStab]

Just want to point out in case anyone missed this the blatant sheeping Arugula is doing of the Oso/Maestro slot. Notice when Oso first switches off of me saying something akin to "McStab can be examined tomorrow, Code_X dies today" followed by Arugula saying virtually the exact same thing. Then some obvious sheeping of Maestro right now.

Arugula's is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He should be up for lynching tomorrow.

[McStab]

Or at least until he contributes some reads of his own

[McStab]

To summarize Maestro's views on IS and Code_X, he doesn't think they should be lynched today. Nor do you. Maestro thinks I should be lynched, so do you. Oso thought I should be lynched, so did you. The next post you make after Oso decides I shouldn't be lynched and Code_X should, you decide I shouldn't and Code_X should. Difference is, Oso and Maestro gave real reasons for their reads; you followed in every single situation and haven't offered much at all in the way of reasoning.

[McStab]

I believe both Chaos and I are at L-1.

[McStab]

Well that's unfortunate, I'm the cop

[McStab]

I was hoping I wouldn't have to come forward and claim given that Code_X was the only undecided vote and he was about to hammer you - I doubt there's a doc in this setup anyhow so chances were I'd die tonight and be useless if I claimed. I wasn't expecting Guttersnipe to quickhammer

[McStab]

Nah, check the rules Maestro. Rules say even the lynched one can continue posting till a death scene comes up

[McStab]

Great job Maestro, and really great job Gutter. Also good job to Oso earlier too.

On Day One I was sincerely hoping Code_X would logon before Gutter; I knew Gutter would switch and hammer me if he got on first, but based on what Code had said he would've gone after Chaos as opposed to me.

I'm curious as to IS's investigation results; it's possible town could've won in LyLo if IS had shared them.

The whole IS + Fate vs. havingfitz vs. Tebow + Chaos really saved us this game. Maestro also reacted really well to my fake dead cop claim (who Arugula correctly sniffed out) and Maestro did a great job picking out Axxle as JOAT (I'd missed his breadcrumb). Gutter's SK gambit was brilliant as well, going to fake a third mafia member after hammering me. If Maestro hadn't been so good at remaining unsuspected, Gutter would've been set for the rest of the game.