Open 420: Medical Mafia - That's all, folks!

[Venmar]

Vote: FuDuzn

Get a normal cell phone, jeeze.

[Venmar]

Vote: RoboCopter87

[Venmar]

Yeah, i am. Thank you for the compliment.

PEdit: Why not?

[Venmar]

VOTE: Jackal711

Obvlurkerscum.

Oh no you di'int!

UNVOTE: Jackal711
VOTE: RachMarie

Dem fightin words

- This stroke me as odd.

Why do you want me to give you solid reasons Rach? It isn't even past Day 1.

[Venmar]

Why do you want me to give you solid reasons Rach? It isn't even past Day 1.

Are you saying you aren't going to give any solid reasons on Day One?

- Sorry, that was a typo. I meant Page 1. Funny you would make that kind of assumption really.

I'm voting him for the same reason Venmar is.

Correction, Venmar is voting me for the same reasons you are. Not the other way around. And yes, there is a difference.

- No one specified why they were voting for you. I brought it up.

[Venmar]

And you're getting worked up about this... why??

[Venmar]

I don't really have any other place to put my vote at this moment but I don't think Rach deserves it.

- Who does deserve it than?

[Venmar]

RoboCopter, my man.

Why you no vote no one?

[Venmar]

Also.

@Mod, I will be V/LA Tomorrow on Sunday for the whole day.

[Venmar]

- Okay this thing between Robo / Mort / Rach regarding Rach choosing to push me over Robo for putting someone at L-2, does it matter? Both situations were identical, two people were at L-2, two people put their person at L-2.. to me it looks like it doesn't matter if Rach chose to pursue Robo over me, the intention is the same and you would still get a reaction from the other person as if you were to go after the other. Seeing as Rach said it was to spark discussion, Morton pushing her about going for me over Robo is irrelevant because if she went for Robo, the situation would be the same but just different person.
- So even if Rach chose to go for Robocopter, Morton would ask her why she chose him over me, and he would get the same answer. You guys dig my crib on what I am trying to say?

[Venmar]

I'm not sure why you think it had to be an either/or type of situation. If I see two people doing something that I find questionable, i'm going to question both of them. I'm not going to question one of them and have their answers suffice to justify my problems with the other person. That makes no sense, it's selective scumhunting and it's scummy as hell.

- I agree. But the answer that Rach gave you, the answer you would get if she pushed Robo would be same that she gave you for pushing me. If she gave a different question, something was is regarding how i presented my vote or how i acted or my meta, THEN THAT, would be really scummy and selective scumhunting. But her answer seemed to be to spark discussion, so if she pushed Robo her intention would be same as it was with me.

- You dig?

[Venmar]

Typo above.
* gave a different answer. *

[Venmar]

Mort tends to have tunnel vision. He almost always assumes I am scum even when proven wrong.

- Does this make him scum? If so, how does this make Morton scum? Given i think this statement has been declared untrue, Tunnel Vision is not a scum tell, and you can find townies or town players tunnel visioning people who they find scum. It is usually a null tell, and in this situation i feel like it is because Morton has been paying attention to me and others, so he isn't necessarily "blindly", as to say, tunnel visioning.

I want to hear more from Robo, now that Venmar spoke. I really do have a method to my madness even if it is not fully apparent off the bat.

- What do you want to hear from Robo? What have i said that has satisfied you? You never really asked me much ( actually, only one ) questions, so what gives? Also, i will take your self meta as such and i will treat as such, a null tell. Self Meta does not equal town or scum.

I have been having RL issues and I am working hard to keep up with my games. Looks like I won't be going V/LA though, since my dad will not be able to come down after all before starting chemo and radiation therapy on Thursday.

- I am very sorry to hear that. I hope everything goes down the right path for y'all and get through with it. On a more serious note though, don't take this the wrong way, I don't like it when people try to justify them lurking or not reading the thread, it is kind of a scum tell in my eyes. ( especially since you never mentioned this before i think, or announced a V/LA ).

----

Rach, how come you aren't voting for Morton if you think that he is scummy? If you think he is, i definitely think that is where your vote is deserved, and not being confident in what you say is suspicious. From what i have seen so far, I think you are the best case as of right now, and for that reason i feel like my vote deserves to be put on you.

Vote: Rachmarie

@Venmar: You have something more important to talk about?

- No, I don't really have much to add on the things that have been going on before I brought up the Rach and Morton thing. Although i find TTS's way of posting and accusations hilarious, and I think saying that his play style is a method of covering up scummy play is ridiculous. While annoying, it is kind of like saying ( don't mean to pick on anyone, just an example ) Rainbowdash's way of saying "pony" is a specific method to cover up alignment.

[Venmar]

You have satisfied my concerns already Robo based on your responses there.

Venmar on the other hand, and Jackal.....

This is twice someone just slipped in with a 3rd vote no case just sheepin along.

I am going to look at both Venmar and Jackal closely.

- How come this looks like OMGUS? Previously you said you are going to move on from me to RoboCopter because you were satisfied with me, but now that i place my vote on you i become suspicious in your eyes? What happened to you pursuing Robo? How come you are dropping previously made plans and are making new ones for those who have voted for you?

[Venmar]

@ Robo

TBF Mort does NOT change votes much.

ATM I feel that Venmar and Jackal are the most scummy, however caveat with Jackal is he always seems scummy even when he is VT or a PR. uggh.

I am going to look at ISOs tonight and put my vote on somewhere more solid. I am feeling more and more like Robo is probably town.

- I await your reasoning for why i am scum...

[Venmar]

@FuDuzn - Do you think Time Traveller is scum because of possible tunneling on Zach? Tunneling isn't a scum tell on its own in my opinion. That said, any other reason he could be scum?

[Venmar]

I find Timetravellers tunneling of Zach very weird. I usually don't find tunneling a scum tell, most of the time just a null tell because both town and scum can use it effectively, but TimeTraveller is hardcore tunneling that it is becoming concerning. He has only really been addressing one person the whole game without really pointing out anything else, like Robocopter nicely explained in his last post. Another to note that TTS's tunneling isn't filled with sound evidence, and rather someone who wants to look extra townie by going against the grain and attacking one of the less scummier players in the game, Zach. Twisting people's words does not equal a case.

I still need to reread the thread a bit before i change my vote or anything. Probably going to vote TTS though.

[Venmar]

Can we get a replacement for FightingShadow please?

Hi.

Okay, before I say anything, just to check, tunneling is like "tunnel vision" and only focusing your attention on a specific player, right?

- Tunneling and Tunnel Vision are the same thing i believe, so yes.

[Venmar]

So Rach is at L-1 now.
UNVOTE: Time Travelling Scumhunter

- Why does Rach being at L-1 make you unvote TTS? Am i the only one who doesn't understand this move?

[Venmar]

Nope.

I am going to wait until i unvote, i want to see if there are any counter claims. If there aren't I will probably unvote. I want to read over TTS because he is probably my second pick for scum,

[Venmar]

Jackal is probably town because this is generally how he plays. He usually just pops in once in a while, and usually changes his vote for whatever reason. He flipped town that game, so i am inclined to think he is town this game. It might be a long stretch, but at the very least i think Jackal should be saved at least until day 2, i think we can learn much more from a different lynch on day 1. JAckal is just vote hopping and not talking much, i doubt we would gain a whole bunch of information out of that.

I want to see more from TTS, he is looking the worst right now. We also need him to post so we know if he is going to counterclaim or not.

Unvote: RachMarie

- I believe this role claim. However, if she is counterclaimed i might return to this one.

Vote: TTS

- My best bet right now.

[Venmar]

I doubt scum would do a random quickhammer Day 1.

Jackal, why did you self-vote? Were you trying to fish for quickhammers, sticking with your meta, or what?

[Venmar]

I doubt scum would do a random quickhammer Day 1.

Jackal, why did you self-vote? Were you trying to fish for quickhammers, sticking with your meta, or what?

Is the implication that town would be more likely to quick hammer?

- Nope.

[Venmar]

I might be wrong, but that is just a waste of our roles TTS, Rachmarie is a confirmed Nurse until there is a counter-claim, and wasting our resources on her is a really bad idea in my opinion. Even if we were to do it, there would be no kill because the cpr doctor would save her from the quack doctor, and the normal + weak doctor will also give her a second and third protection. The naive doctor will obviously have no effect. Result? No kill, and a bad suggestion.

[Venmar]

CPR will NOT try to kill Rach because he protects his target should it be killed, so he protects her from either the mafia kill or the quack doctor. So she should still have 2 protections left after both attempts,

Doctors just flip doctor. You aren't told which type of doctor you are, it isn't in your PM, so you flip just "doctor". If people flipped their real sanity/modifier, it would start to narrow down peoples own modifier and sanity, it could really help town i think.

How come you don't know this? Don't you have a doctor pm?

[Venmar]

Logically though, when someone dies the mod reveals the title of your role, hence, just doctor.

I understand the confusion though.

[Venmar]

Morton, Jackyll is dumb either way. But I think it would be insanely dumb for Jackyll-scum to do that.

And yes, on Day 1 I generally am very wishy washy and non-committal. I tend to tighten up as the game goes on.

- I can probably vouch for FuDuzn when i say that he tends to do a whole lot more after day 1. However, i don't think this is indicative of alignment because i am sure you do that as both alignments. This is a null tell, and should not be taken in a townie or scummy way in my honest opinion.

[Venmar]

Zach let's make it easy. Pretty clear that TTS will claim Doc, and I know it is against the norm, but right now it is about 12:43 local time. I go to play volleyball at 6, but if TTS hasn't posted I will hammer no later then 5:30.

Good/bad?

- Lol you play volleyball?

[Venmar]

In a park? I haven't heard of that actually, i usually play beach or indoor volleyball when i do play it. I was just surprised you play Volleyball is all

[Venmar]

Not much to go on today, all i know is that there are 5 "unknown" players and two of them are scum.

Will be rereading.

[Venmar]

Now, with TTS and Jackal both ending up dead, I am starting to rethink some of my reads. Both of them were the strongest scum reads and wagons on Day 1, both flipped town. There was also a partial wagon on Rachmarie, who turns out to be the nurse. Now obviously a doctor. I suspect that some of the people pushing these wagons could be scum because not a single town has been put under a wagon yet.

I am going to look over the wagons and try to spot any scum manipulation if possible.

[Venmar]

And just reading Venmars post here, I don't like it. For whatever reason it just seems fake.
VOTE: Venmar

- Why?

[Venmar]

I targeted Morton

[Venmar]

Jackal was probably a CPR Doctor or Paranoid doctor victim, i didn't see why anyone would protect him, or why the mafia would kill him.

Still depends, Morton looks like a decent target for the mafia, or he could be scum himself. We need more target claims first. But i do know that i am not scum.

[Venmar]

I was the second to claim my target. Does that make me scummy or townie FuDuzn?

[Venmar]

You've been popcorn'd.

[Venmar]

Seriously Morton? You've been pocorn'd, if you want RoboCopter to claim his target then answer yours and popcorn him. You're acting awfully weird right now.

[Venmar]

Okay. Both me and FuDuzn targeted Morton. Here's a couple of scenarios that could have happened. Morton, your reason for stalling is weak, but i can understand it was to make sure you don't claim. and screw yourself over since you targeted a now dead person. I would like to know what was your motivation behind a Jackal protect, i think he was agreed by the majority to be town, and wasn't really deemed to be too important to be protected. Were you hoping to kill him? In which case you did? I am sceptical of scum trying to kill Jackal.

First things first, neither me nor FuDuzn were roleblocked. We also both know that we aren't weak doctors since no one targeted us and we lived through targeting Morton. We also should not forget that 1 doctor has died and the other has been taken over by Rach.

I am a Insane Doctor, Fuduzn is a normal doctor, FuDuzn saves.
I am a normal Doctor, FuDuzn is a Insande Doctor, Venmar saves.
Fuduzn is scum, I am a Doctor/CPR Doctor, Venmar saves.
I am scum, FuDuzn is a Doctor/CPR Doctor, FuDuzn saves.
FuDuzn is a Doctor, I am a CPR Doctor, We both save.
FuDuzn is a CPR Doctor, I am a Doctor, We both save.
FuDuzn is a Paranoid Doctor, i am a Doctor, We both save. ( In this scenario, Morton gets roleblocked. Possibly explaining Jackals death with a failure of protection )
FuDuzn is a Doctor, i am a Paranoid Doctor, We both save. ( In this scenario, Morton gets roleblocked. Possibly explaining Jackals death with a failure of protection )
FuDuzn is a Naive Doctor, I am a Normal Doctor, Venmar Saves.
FuDuzn is a Normal Doctor, I am a Naive Doctor, FuDuzn Saves.
FuDuzn is a Paranoid Doctor, I am a Naive Doctor, FuDuzn Saves. ( In this scenario, Morton gets roleblocked. Possibly explaining Jackals death with a failure of protection )
FuDuzn is a Naive Doctor, I am a Paranoid Doctor, Venmar Saves. ( In this scenario, Morton gets roleblocked. Possibly explaining Jackals death with a failure of protection )
FuDuzn is any Doctor, I am any Doctor, Scum attempts to kill Morton, We both save.
---
There are probably more possible outcomes, but that is what i got so far.

[Venmar]

I did not take an action. I did not find anybody town enough to be protected and knew someone else would protect Rach, also I figured that the less amount of actions flying around the more likely it would be to sort through them to figure out the vary degrees of sanity of our doctors.

- I'd like to say that your reason for not using your action is not satisfactory for me. In this post you seem to hint that you thought RachMarie was worth protecting, but you decided to not do just that. and instead went on the hope that she was protected by someone else, even though she was deemed to be a unlikely choice for a scum-kill. The fact you made this excuse AFTER Yellowbounders claim is also shady, but this was popcorn'd so I can't pin you for that really, but it so does look convenient to use YB's claim to make an excuse for yourself.

- The second part in your post is mostly true, but not we have to make connections while keeping in mind a possible doctor who didn't use his power. Meaning, you could have been a Paranoid Doctor or a Quack Doctor and not using your power might leave me and FuDuzn thinking one of us is one and the other saved Morton. ( This is thinking in the sense that me and him don't think the other is scum. ) I think if you made an action, it could have been more useful for us. These are after all just 1 round of results, and another round would really help.

PEdit: Reading.

[Venmar]

First things first, neither me nor FuDuzn were roleblocked. We also both know that we aren't weak doctors since no one targeted us and we lived through targeting Morton. We also should not forget that 1 doctor has died and the other has been taken over by Rach.

I uhhhh, don't follow how you eliminated weak doctor as a possibility.

- Okay. Neither of us were targeted, thus we weren't roleblocked. Meaning our "protection" reached Morton. That also means no one could have saved us from dying due to targeting a mafia. So, should Morton have been a scum, me or FuDuzn would have died should we have been a weak doctor. This, however, doesn't clear Morton and is just speculation of course. Just because we aren't weak doctors doesn't mean that Morton is town, we just know what doctor we probably aren't.

- Although from your post and tone i think i am missing something, aren't I...?

[Venmar]

- Yeah, sorry Zach i just realized Morton could have been town and our protection went through. Sorry about that. It does, however, mean that if me or FuDuzn are a Weak Doctor, Morotn isn't scum. But we don't know if we are, so assuming Morton is town is not in order.

[Venmar]

@Zachrulez - Who is scum?
@Robocopter- Who is scum?

[Venmar]

- Yeah, sorry Zach i just realized Morton could have been town and our protection went through. Sorry about that. It does, however, mean that if me or FuDuzn are a Weak Doctor, Morotn isn't scum. But we don't know if we are, so assuming Morton is town is not in order.

I'm not assuming he is on that basis, I'm just pointing out the fact that your basis presumed he was scum.

- I think on my basis i was saying he WASN'T scum, should FuDuzn or I be a weak doctor. Also, the part in the above post where it said

"But we don't know if we are, so assuming Morton is town is not in order."

, wasn't aimed at you, just to the game in general.

[Venmar]

Yellowbounder? What made you so suspicious of him all of the sudden?

[Venmar]

Robo makes a good point, we should still focus on good ol'fashoined scumhunting and not spend the whole day trying to figure out exactly who did what, (Venmar and Zach I am looking in your direction).

- I've been scumhunting Robocopter a little bit. The speculating on night actions was just a plus that i quickly did regarding you and me.

[Venmar]

FuDuzn, can you explain to me why am i scum again?

[Venmar]

Well my first instinct reading this post was that it screamed fake. And hey, how is that looking over the Day 1 wagons going? Forget about that already?

- Why does it scream fake? And no, i did not forget about that, i simply didn't post my thoughts about it. I'll oblige you and post my thoughts about each of the three wagons after this post.

And please explain the last sentence in the first paragraph please, reading it over again it almost seems like a slip.

- It's not a slip. What i meant by that is that TTS, Jackal, and Rachmarie were all wagon'd during day 1, all of them going under L-2 or L-1 at some point, and two of them flipped town, and the third was a confirmed nurse. I made a pretty bad typo there though, it should read " because not a single scum has been put under a wagon yet ".

[Venmar]

Votecount 1.07

RachMarie (4) - Mortontfrh,

Venmar

, Zachrulez,

Jackal711

Time Traveling Scumhunter (2) - yellowbounder, RachMarie
Zachrulez (1) - Time Traveling Scumhunter
Jackal711 (1) - FuDuzn
Robocopter87 (0) -

none

FuDuzn (0) -

none

Mortontfrh (0) -

none

yellowbounder (0) -

none

Venmar (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (1) - Robocopter87

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

RachMarie is V/LA until 21st July

The deadline is in (expired on 2012-07-19 04:21:01).

- This is the Vote Count with the four people who voted for RachMarie, making her claim Nurse and practically getting confirmed as such. Two players who i don't know the alignments of are on this wagon, Morton and Zach. If i had to pick one of these two to be scummy, it would be either, although it could be possible that both are town.

Votecount 1.11

Time Traveling Scumhunter (5) -

RachMarie,

yellowbounder

, Venmar, Jackal711,

Zachrulez
Jackal711 (2) - Mortontfrh, Robocopter87
Zachrulez (1) - Time Traveling Scumhunter
RachMarie (0) -

none

yellowbounder (0) -

none

Robocopter87 (0) -

none

FuDuzn (0) -

none

Mortontfrh (0) -

none

Venmar (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (1) - FuDuzn

Time Traveling Scumhunter,

Doctor

, has been lynched.

It is now Night 1. Deadline: (expired on 2012-07-20 13:12:23)

- This is the vote Count where TTS was lynched. Two people who i don't know the alignment of are on this wagon. One overlap with the Rachmarie wagon, ZachRulez. If i had to pick one of these two to be scum, it would be Zach simply because he was on the RachMarie wagon as well. ZachRulez started out with a big scum read on TTS, but then makes time and reason to switch to a RachMarie wagon, makes her claim, and returns to his TTS wagon.

------

There was no official Vote Count for the quick and random wagon on Jackal. He was on L-1 however, here are the people who voted for him below:

: FuDuzn, Mortonfrh, Robocopter,

Jackal

- This doesn't tell us much since Jackal put himself at L-1. However, Morton overlaps with the Rachmarie wagon. From these three, i personally find Robocopter scummy, not exactly from this vote count, but rather what happened later. It is also worth noting that Jackal was a easy lynch target, and I think scum were bound to have jumped on it for a easy lynch. This would ideally point to Morton being scum for overlapping over the Rachmarie wagon. Seeing as Morton's reasoning for voting Jackal seems to be orientated around the fact that Jackal is useless by nature and by following his meta, and it looks more like a policy lynch than a scum lynch, which is bad reasoning.

------

- The first two wagons point to Zach being scummy for being on both wagons, and points away from Yellowbounder from being scum. Now i do realize I was on the Rach and TTS wagon as well, but this is all from my perspective. By my logic, I would also be scummy, i realize that. It also may be a bit early to start doing a wagon analysis, but I found it very suspicious that three townies were all put under L-1 on Day 1. From these wagons. For all i know, Zach and Morton are town and the scum are actually hiding the YB, FuDuzn, and Robocopter group.

- I realize this post may look wish-washy, but FuDuzn wanted to see what i got from my wagon analysis, and this is what I have. My current scum reads are Zach, Morton, and Robocopter. I also may need to ISO FuDuzn and Yellowbounder, because I feel like i am overlooking or missing them in my rereads. I look forward to FuDuzn becoming his useful self as he always claims to be more useful after Day 1.

[Venmar]

First of all, a policy lynch wasn't the basis for my vote on Jackal at all. It's quite sad that you got that from #221.

- Sad, why is it sad? It was probably the only post I saw that showed your explanation for Jackal scum. Isn't lynching someone based off of how they play and on the basis that they are useless ( which, by your words, is his meta ), a policy lynch?

Second of all and more importantly, you say that my push for Jackal was scummy because he was an easy target. This means that as scum, I would go into N1 and kill an easy target instead of pushing for his lynch the next day?

- Because I think you realized a lot of people realized people weren't comfortable with lynching him based off of his meta. I also doubt you would have given it a second try to revive a dead/dying wagon on a player without drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

[Venmar]

You're aware that almost 100% of lynches are based off of how someone plays, right? And no, it wasn't based on his meta at all. I'm well aware of his meta, the entire premise of my wagon was that he was trying to oversell the fuck out of his meta to buy town cred. I really don't know how I could have made that any clearer.

- I see.

I made a huge mistake bringing up Jackals Meta in #53 and i'll take credit for that huge fault in my play. However, Jackal unnecessarily parrots his meta. I've attempted to get him to address why he felt the need to do this multiple times but it's fallen on deaf ears.

The major problem with Jackals play is that he's well aware of his Meta and he's overplaying it so fucking hard.

Yes, Jackal's meta is usually useless as fuck just hopping in and doing nothing. However, Town Jackal still does provide something useful every now and then when he feels it's applicable. The fact that he's refusing to even do the bare minimum of awful Jackal play is a testimony towards him trying to overplay his useless town meta.

- Explain to me how this reasoning is not dependent on Jackals meta? Trying to oversell your meta is still, in a sense, acting to your meta. Whether or not someone is overselling it or not is up to debate. Considering you called Jackal useless and doing nothing, i can't see how you can determine the difference between him playing up to his meta and overselling it if he plays as if he is useless. It was clear you were incapable of seeing the difference in how he plays because he flipped town, regardless if you were a doctor who killed him or not.

- This WAS a policy vote/lynch because it was on the basis of how he plays. The fact he was possibly "overselling" his meta does not change the fact he was playing up to his meta. The only thing stopping me from voting you right now is the fact you could be a Quack/CPR doctor who killed Jackal, and scum tried to kill someone one of us protected. But this is hard to tell because Rach and Robo didn't use their actions.

This actually made me laugh, cause it really wasn't.

- Funny, coming from the guy who i called scum in the very same post. Weird.

----

Congratulations on ignoring this part of my post:

Second of all and more importantly, you say that my push for Jackal was scummy because he was an easy target. This means that as scum, I would go into N1 and kill an easy target instead of pushing for his lynch the next day?

- Because I think you realized a lot of people realized people weren't comfortable with lynching him based off of his meta. I also doubt you would have given it a second try to revive a dead/dying wagon on a player without drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

[Venmar]

How does him overselling his meta not change anything at all? Do you honestly think that someone faking their entire play isn't scummy at all?

- I didn't think he was faking his play at all, in fact he was paying perfectly up to his meta, but you obviously couldn't tell the difference between him playing up to it or overplaying it. The point still stands, how can you tell the difference between someone playing up to their meta or overplaying it, especially if their meta is to be useless and not give out information.

Sorry, you were actually expecting me to respond to your argument about the plausibility of Jackal being a night kill target?

- No, but i was expecting you to address it over making a useless comment on FuDuzn's remark on my post. I explained to you why Jackal could be a hard lynch target, which can explain why the mafia would kill him. Mafia usually want to kill players that won't attract attention to the members of the mafia, a safe kill. Jackal pretty much fits that criteria since he is "useless" like you call him.

----

- I'll be honest with you, your reactions to my post and my answers are awfully aggressive and harsh, which is kind of a change from the normal stubborn Morton i think we most knew at the beginning of this game. I don't know your meta very well, but I might have to read up on your meta, because i am not liking your reactions, they look scummy. Frankly i can't bring myself to vote for you because i still want to see more from Zach and Robo, my other scum reads, because like I said, your night action is one of the only things making me think you could be town. ( Quack/CPR Doctor )

Vote: ZachRulez

- You have yet to really say much. I will make a subsequent most about what I think about your Day 2 activity.

[Venmar]

I'm not really that interested in trying to figure out doc actions too much, the tree of possibilities is simply far too complex. (Venmar's speculation was based on some false premises that I felt the need to debunk.)

- What have you done so far to this post? Right, you just made some small list of night actions by everyone, which quite frankly just looks like an attempt to look active, and pester YB about popcorning Rachmarie. As town, I find focusing on a player because they chose to popcorn someone you disagree with instead of other things like analysis or scumhunting just comes off as a weird focus for town, sounds more like scum trying to make up shenanigans. The thing is, you have a town read on Morton and Robocopter, but yet you still act as if they are scum when you address Yellowbounder about his popcorn.

That makes me more comfortable with the idea of today's lynch being between Yellowbounder and Venmar. (I have town reads on Mort and Robo.)

Vote: Venmar

- Are you voting me because not being paranoid is a scummy thing? You seem to sheep and agree with FuDuzn about how he says we should return to old fashioned scumhunting, but instead of doing just that you choose to follow his train of thought, sheep his idea, and vote for me, without doing what you agree was a good thing. ( Scumhunting )

PEdit: Hilarious!! I vote you and throw flak on you and all of the sudden here you are turtling into a overly defensive shell. how is this not scummy?

[Venmar]

Meanwhile you post a wall that contains bandwagon analysis which is the refuge of scum, and make other posts that ride on Morton after the fact about his criticism of Jackal and how the whole overplaying his meta point was wrong. It's a whole thing if "you should have known better" filled in with the power of hindsight! Yee haw!

- Congratulations, you are trying to make me look worse by predicting something i wasn't planning on doing.

Oh, and activity overview says I have made the most posts of any player in this game.

How's that for not saying much?

- That doesn't say anything, it just means you're more active. All your telling me in this post is that # of posts = Pro-Town, which is not true at all. If you look into your Day 2 posts, you didn't say much at all, and what you did was you followed FuDuzn and contributed in the doctor analysis that i did, which you called scummy. Also note that this post and yours before it, are in no way saying much.

[Venmar]

How is focusing on that fact not scumhunting? You're trying to defeat the points I'm making from my point of view when I'm attacking how his actions don't make sense from his.

It's not even about the fact that he was potentially trying to set up a hypothetical scumbuddy to claim last. (That's only ONE of the possibilities.) There's a much larger point here in that from HIS point of view... HIS... not mine, he should be wanting one of Robo or Mort to claim after him. Popcorning Rach to claim next makes 0 sense from a town perspective.

Let me draw a little map here for you. If he's town, he doesn't know their alignment, but he can be pretty confident in Rach's. In that situation it makes a hell of a lot more sense to ask one of them to claim, especially when you understand the benefits of popcorning.

If he's scum, then of course there's the possibility that his scumbuddy hasn't claimed yet, and popcorning Rach means that there's a chance his buddy can claim last. But see, that also ignores the fact that his buddy (Which would be you based on who I am finding scummy at the moment.) has already claimed and from a scum perspective he really doesn't care who claims next so he just fired off Rach's name for the hell of it. (With my suspicions I am favoring the latter ATM)

Anyway, that would be how it makes more sense from a scum perspective. Yes I know there's the argument that he just didn't put a lot of thought into it as town, but I weigh that as a lesser possibility than the scum side of the equation given the post he made about the benefit of popcorning.

If you can't see that, then you just DON'T want to see it.

- Fine, i get your point about popcorning. But it doesn't explain the fact that YB could have only popcorn'd to three people, Rach, Morton, and Robocopter. All three are town reads, so i can't find why this is such a important factor you have the need to hone in on.

My vote on you is based on how heavily setup and bandwagon analysis is influencing your scumhunting.

-Funny, I started bandwagon analysis AFTER your vote, so clearly that wasn't the basis for you vote. I also have seen bandwagon analysis used by town and effectively catch scum, i'm sorry if I said i would look over something and i followed through on it when i was prodded to show what my results are.

- You being defensive is fine, but those two posts were TOO defensive, which i don't find really townie from my perspective. And i am not fake scumhunting, you are still trying to act as if ALL i am doing is bandwagon and setup analysis, which i obviously moved on from to you and Morton. I am trying my best to scumhunt and find scum for town, so stop trying to discredit me.

[Venmar]

This is not predicting, it is reacting. My reaction is that your attacks on Morton are not coming from a position of actually thinking he is scum but are coming from finding him to suddenly be a very nice target for a lynch.

- I think you forgot that Morton reacted to my post and i responded to it. I obviously stated in my posts that Morton isn't someone i want to lynch.

Not saying # of posts = Pro-Town. I'm saying I'm more active than you're making me out to be, and that you're using a spat of less active play from a period of massclaim to promote that image.

- Okay. Activity does not equal Pro-Town, practically the same thing.

[Venmar]

If you had these contentions with the wagon why didn't you mention them in the

8 posts

you made after I posted my wagon? Sure is nice being able to buy town cred debunking a wagon after the flip instead of when it's actually presented, isn't it?

- I actually did show my disapproval of a Jackal lynch right here:

Jackal is probably town because this is generally how he plays. He usually just pops in once in a while, and usually changes his vote for whatever reason. He flipped town that game, so i am inclined to think he is town this game. It might be a long stretch, but at the very least i think Jackal should be saved at least until day 2, i think we can learn much more from a different lynch on day 1. Jackal is just vote hopping and not talking much, i doubt we would gain a whole bunch of information out of that.

Yeah man, Mafia's #1 concern is someone who doesn't do a single lick of scum hunting, self-votes, and bogs down the entire town with his horrendous play. :roll

- Doesn't that make him a good mislynch for the mafia...? Doesn't that also make him a good safe, low profile kill for the mafia...? Sure he might be wanted to be kept around, but he is going to become a easy mislynch, which is pretty good for the mafia, no?

[Venmar]

Why did the activity drop by a whole day or so? Did i catch some scum? HMMMMMMM!?!?!

[Venmar]

Vote: Venmar

[Venmar]

That's completely irrelevant towards the fact that apparently you had some major gripes with my vote on Jackal that you didn't care to address until after Jackal flipped town. If you can nit pick my wagon D2, you should have been able to do it D1. What changed between now and then, other than the fact that you got to see Jackals flip before actually trying to pry into my reasoning for voting him? You had ample time to do so as demonstrated by your multitude of different posts after I stated why I would prefer a Jackal wagon.

- What were we doing Day 1? After the Jackal wagon we were frocusing on TTS. I am sorry that i only realized how flawed your wagon is after i reread the thread and saw how scummy your reasoning for voting him was. The fact he flipped town helps, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that when you try to lynch someone for their meta alone, that is just bad.

These three posts contradicting each other are truly just a work of art. You go from acknowledging that Jackal was a the second largest wagon D2, stating that his flip required a reread, to stating that he was an easy lynch

and then all of a sudden you don't think that people were comfortable lynching him?

Perhaps we live on opposite sides of the spectrum, but I certainly wouldn't place the second largest wagon (Your words of course, not mine) to be on a non-viable lynch list.

- Look back for a second and tell me where i said Jackal was the second largest wagon? Look back, and tell me. Now. Also, a lot of that post involves you twisting my words into something they are not, GOOD FOR YOU.

---

- Obviously you think you are princess who is polishy clean of all crimes. I still think you are town so why are you attacking me so hard? I think you are town because I rarely see scum argue with others like this, so i think this is a town vs town debate. Unlike Zach who dropped the argument and took his ball home and is probably going to pick it up now after i mentioned it. You're also town for being the only one to target Jackal, which makes me think you are a quack or CPR doctor. I THINK YOU ARE TOWN, I am just pestering you about your wagon because it was bad, i am trying to scumhunt and i think i found a scum in Zach.

Vote: Zachrulez

[Venmar]

It worked for Jackal so it'll work for you?...

- Also this reaction is bad.

[Venmar]

Why focus so much energy on Morton's position on Jackal from day 1 if your conclusion is that he's town? What's the point of being so critical of it?

Like seriously, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything but attempting to draw suspicion to him.

- Why are you defending him? Why are you acting for him? I already told you, i am trying to scumhunt and your actions are making me feel even better about my vote.

[Venmar]

Yes, while conveniently ignoring

my push for a counter wagon on Jackal.

And then subsequently trying to buy town cred for debunking a wagon post-flip.

- Slip of the tongue?

I literally quoted all three relevant posts, are you just skimming over my posts now? I even quoted post 282 which explicitly states your understanding of Jackal being the second largest wagon:

- I didn't say "second largest wagon". Dafuq you talking about? Also doesn't change the fact you twisted my words.

See this is the good part, because I don't give a flying fuck what you think about me because I think you're scum. The difference between me and you is that I don't just push random shit around just to look like i'm scum hunting. I may be a princess, but you're trying way to hard to put that crown of confirmed town on your head prince.

- Confirmed town? How am I trying to look

confirmed town?

. Also, that's nice, because i don't give a flying fuck what you think about me.

[Venmar]

Also, in that same quote you state twice that I should just magically accept you as town.

- I DONT GIVE A FUCK WHAT YOU THINK OF ME. I SIMPLY SAID WHAT I THOUGHT AND WHAT I THINK OF YOU, BUT NOT THAT I CARE WHAT YOU THINK OF ME, BELIEVE ME OR DON'T BELIEVE ME.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? You stated that Jackal was one of the two biggest wagons D2, which means he was either the largest leading wagon or he was the second largest wagon. How is this so difficult to understand? Do I need to quote your post for the third time where you state that Jackal/TTS were the two largest wagons D1?

- Why are you putting words in my mouth? Rach, TTS, and Jackal were all L-1 at one point.

[Venmar]

*sigh*
/headdesk

[Venmar]

@Robocopter - Who is your top scum read right now?
@FuDuzn - Where did you go? I thought you always step up your game after Day 1? In addition, what are your top scum reads right now?

[Venmar]

Yeah, i'm with FuDuzn, there wasn't much wrong with his post.

Robocopter, are you not suspicious of Morton or Zach at all? Your attitude in that post hinted you were defending Morton for some reason.

[Venmar]

FuDuzn, you do realize Quack Doctor is just another name for a Vigilante?

[Venmar]

Quack Doctor --> Equivalent functionality of that of a Vigilante.
Paranoid Doctor --> Equivalent functionality of that of a Jailkeeper

[Venmar]

Aw, come on Zach, I was starting to suspect you were town, don't ruin it.

- Mother of OMGUS.

- I really would prefer a Zach lynch. What i don't understand at the moment is why Zach targeted Yellowbounder during last night and now wants to lynch him, which kind of doesn't really check out logically.

[Venmar]

- "Protecting" Yellowbounder during the night, but wanting to lynch him the next day.

[Venmar]

Can you rephrase that. Are you saying you were hoping to kill YB in hopes of him being a scum vig? Why were you heavily assuming you were going to kill when Morton crumbed of hoping to kill as well.

[Venmar]

Still looks bad.

[Venmar]

Sorry for forgetting FuDuzn.. i guess? The difference is I find Zach scummy and FuDuzn is a null read, so i am more interested in pushing Zach than FuDuzn.

[Venmar]

@FuDuzn, why did you decide to vote Morton when you seemed interested in voting in Zachrulez with me?

[Venmar]

Actually you know what ven? First instinct is usually the correct instinct(I hate voting off of gut though).
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zach

It's wrong in this case.

- Your defense is marvelous, 10/10, would be convinced again.

[Venmar]

My vote is where I want it to be. I won't be around for deadline, I am going to be asleep at 2:00 AM.

[Venmar]

Scum is pretty clear in my head. Although this is LyLo i believe, so i'm not going to be voting yet.

We're going to popcorn the night actions first though, starting with me.

I targeted Rachmarie last night.

Zach? Who did you target.

[Venmar]

Just felt like saying this.. I called Morton to be more likely town, and I had no interest in a FuDuzn lynch.

ZachRulez or RoboCopter, one of you two are scum gentlemen.

[Venmar]

I'm too lazy to really bring up any cases, but the night action for Zach night 1 is pretty convenient if they are scum together, and this night it also seems convenient that he protected Rach.

[Venmar]

Idk. I doubt the second doctor who can kill is still alive, I think it's pretty obvious Morton was either a Quack Doctor or CPR doctor. I come to this conclusion because no one else has died from the people's claimed targets, and there has been small buildup.

If we No Lynch, Rach should get all of our protects just in case, but this opens up a free kill for the mafia, allowing them to take out the most townie looking out of the three of us. While No Lynch isn't a bad idea, from my point of view I know that either Robo or Zach is scum, and based off of previous posts and interactions with Yellowbounder, Zach is the one I am leaning on.

@Robocopter - That last post made no sense. You thinking Zach is obvious scum = you wanting a no lynch? Shouldn't you be wanting to be pushing a Zach lynch?

[Venmar]

I don't want EVERYONE protecting me, though I am fine with a NL in this situation, it is not a typical one.

Intent to Hammer the No Lynch

I know looks funny, but I want to make sure everyone has had a chance to have their say first.

- No-Lynch needs two more to be hammered, so your vote wouldn't be "hammering" the no lynch. I also would like to wait until Zach gets back. I don't like nitpicking at real life issues but it seems pretty convenient to skip the remaining of this day phase.

[Venmar]

Oh, okay my bad then. It's your call Rach, if you want to hammer then hammer. I'll do it if you don't want to.

Robocopter, you cool with a no lynch?

[Venmar]

What did you expect Robo? There are 4 people left alive in the game with Rach and Zach on V/LA. You can't really expect that much activity, considering I have been a bit busy as well.

RachMarie needs at least two protects, on the off side one of us is actually a CPR doctor, but i doubt that. From my point of view, Zach is scum so I don't trust him enough to be on Rach, I propose that me and Robocopter protect Rach, Rach can protect me or Robo, and Zach protects one the two of us as well. Of course, this is from my point of view and it is going to be leaving Zach out as vulnerable, but we need to keep in my mind that me or Robo could still be a Naive doctor or a CPR doctor, so a second protect just in case should guarantee Rach at least a safe go through the night. Rach needs to guess correctly which of the three of us are going to get killed though, or at least save who she thinks is the likeliest to be town. Idk what Zach wants to do, I think he is scum so w/e.

That's from my point of view really.

[Venmar]

Umm.

Why didn't Robocopter die Night 2? Just a small question...?

[Venmar]

Nvm I missed the jailkeep, lol.

Good game, I always had a hunch that Robocopter was scum, I actually pursued him earlier in the game but Zach caught my attention and i lost my focus on that lead, I guess i should follow through on those huh...

Good job to the scumteam for holding out, I think you guys could have won if the other doctors didn't kill you, and good job to the town. The FuDuzn lynch was a disaster by the way..