Open 420: Medical Mafia - That's all, folks!

[Zachrulez]

Ok then.

Vote: RachMarie

[Zachrulez]

Yup.

Unvote: Vote: Robo

[Zachrulez]

I'm voting him for the same reason Venmar is.

[Zachrulez]

@ Venmar why did you put Robo at L-3 in RVS?

L-2 by the way.

[Zachrulez]

I'm voting him for the same reason Venmar is.

Correction, Venmar is voting me for the same reasons you are. Not the other way around. And yes, there is a difference.

What would the difference be?

[Zachrulez]

Ok so here's the deal. I don't find Venmar's vote all that interesting. He did exactly what I would have done if our positions were reversed and he had voted Robo first. My response to the vote pretty much would have been bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, even in liking the reasoning I had for voting Robo. People tend to find bandwagoning scummy in RVS so the tendency is not to do it, but then when you avoid bandwagoning you end up in a situation where you can be in RVS for quite some time because no one wants to be that guy that puts a 2nd vote on someone. This is where Robo's actions become interesting because he voted in this manner and then abandoned that to vote for Rach as soon as she threw a vote down on him.

That would be the foundation of my Rach vote at the very beginning of the day btw, just blatant bandwagoning. I find it to be the best way out of RVS cause it's the most likely thing to be reacted to when you're in a complete void of things to discuss.

A few questions for Robo here:

Was your vote for Rach intended to spark discussion? Based on interactions I'm seeing, you are apparently interested in Venmar's reaction but not interested in voting for him over his actions.

So... do you actually find Venmar scummy? I'm seeing you being critical of him, and seeing indications that your vote on Rach was mostly to get things going, so if you find him suspicious and don't have any other underlying reason to vote for Rach, why is your vote still there?

[Zachrulez]

Holy RVS Batman.

VOTE: mortonfrh

For starting this mess, and starting what amounts to a PL wagon on Rach

Unvote: Vote Jackal711

Is this a serious vote?

Either it is and you're voting someone over their first post of the game and trying to attach serious reasons that it's scummy, which is ridiculous, or you're trying to extend RVS. Neither reason does anything substantial to advance the game toward actually lynching scum.

Eh, my vote will stay on Zach for now. It appears that he is attempting to stear conversation in the directions he wants it to go, could be the beginnings of manipulation. I know it isn't much to go on as of now, but just something that sticks out a bit at me in the midst of the robo/rach wagon discussion.

Your suspicion of me is vague, and you avoided taking a position on robo/rach.

/facepalm

Did you even read the quote that you quoted?

Having an active vote is far more productive than sitting around and not having one generally. If we tend to pressure those who don't really have a position on anything, it pressures them to take one on something, and scum have a harder time faking this.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, I stated my suspicion of you is somewhat vague and minor already. But as I also said it is what stood out the most with the Robo/Rach thing. You are accusing Jackal of extending RVS but I believe you are doing the same thing, since this robo/rach thing seems to be an argument based in RVS voting and just reads like a he said she said pointless argument.

Extending RVS means you're not doing anything to advance the game toward serious discussion. My vote on Robo was clearly an attempt to advance the game toward serious discussion. Jackal's vote is either in the RVS vein of reasoning, or his foundation is terrible. Either way it's scummy.

Maybe you don't like where I'm "steering" that discussion or you feel like I'm trying to setup the game state for manipulation. That's one thing, but you can't say my posting since the Robo vote has been in attempting the keep the game in a non discussion state.

[Zachrulez]

Dear game members of 24-hours in the future:

Zach is scum. His focus on an easy target in jackal is a scumfession. He says something is scummy without believing it to be so. Does he really think that a misplaced RVS vote is "scummy" no. Town zach might believe it doesn't help town, but does he really think he's found someone who is evidencing scum tendencies? No. He does not.

VOTE: Zach

Sincerely,
Scumhunter from 24-hours in your past.

Yeah... no.

[Zachrulez]

I also just got out of team mafia where I was accused of going after easy targets throughout the game. Said targets turned out to be scum... so yeah, buzz term is buzz.

[Zachrulez]

No one looks even remotely suspicious to you Jackal? Nothing that would cause you to at least place a tentative on someone?

Not until you posted that...
VOTE: FuDuzn

What's wrong with his post there?

[Zachrulez]

We need more activity, but I don't see any reason to change course at present time.

[Zachrulez]

No one looks even remotely suspicious to you Jackal? Nothing that would cause you to at least place a tentative on someone?

Not until you posted that...
VOTE: FuDuzn

What's wrong with his post there?

Oh yeah, I'm still waiting on a response to this post.

And input from pretty much everyone.

Pro-tip: When you lurk and you are town, you make it much easier for scum to get away with lurking.

[Zachrulez]

To: 24 Hours In The Future
From : TTSH

Subject: Zach is scum.

I also just got out of team mafia where I was accused of going after easy targets throughout the game. Said targets turned out to be scum... so yeah, buzz term is buzz.

Good lord. Are you really using such a terrible meta argument for why you're awesome and town? Congratulations. Drive your go-cart and celebrate while wearing a fez.

But no. Zach's bringing it up to try and get himself insta-townie points because if he was town there and he went after easy targets that turned out to be scum, he's probably town here!

Oh boy!

Love,
Time Traveling Scumhunter

Got anything to say about anyone else?

[Zachrulez]

To: The Future
From: TTSH

Re: Zach's fluffy filler post

We need more activity, but I don't see any reason to change course at present time.

Change course from what to what exactly? What is this inane post supposed to mean other than "oh hi. I'm here sounding positive!" Explain.

Warmest Regards,
Time Traveling Scumhunter

I don't need to explain it to you.

Unvote: Vote: Time Traveling Scumhunter

If anyone else needs it explained I'll explain it, but I think what I meant there was pretty obvious.

I'm leaning towards your posting being more of playing the tunnelvisioned town rather than actually being tunneled town. (Your delivery of certainty looks over the top.)

[Zachrulez]

I suspect TTS' style has a lot to do with trying to be difficult to read. That also incidentally increases his odds of being scum.

[Zachrulez]

Ya but if that is just his 'style', as you put it, wouldn't it just be a null tell?

But I do agree it is annoying.

Not in this case, there's no established meta that this is how he normally plays.

Incidentally I suspect the account is an alt and that whoever is playing this alt knows exactly what they are doing.

[Zachrulez]

Ya but if that is just his 'style', as you put it, wouldn't it just be a null tell?

But I do agree it is annoying.

Not in this case, there's no established meta that this is how he normally plays.

Incidentally I suspect the account is an alt and that whoever is playing this alt knows exactly what they are doing.

How is this indicative of his alignment? Are you saying that he created this alt account just so that way if he got a scum role he could post in an annoying fashion in order to be deceptive?

No I don't think that it was planned upon alt creation. I do think now that he's in the game the reason for posting the way he has been is strategic. If you postulate it's strategic, can you make a reasonable argument for this posting style being pro-town?

Vote: ZachRulez

- I really can't understand why everyone is ignoring Rach's behavior, but until people stop letting scum lurk then my vote on her is just dead weight and this is a wagon I can get aboard.

I can't so your point of view so imma vote you. Good thinking there man.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, a player is posting under a self imposed post restriction as an excuse to do very little and it's not a scumtell at all!

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, a player is posting under a self imposed post restriction as an excuse to do very little and it's not a scumtell at all!

You're implying that this was a conscious choice after getting his role. You're aware that this means that you think that he created an alt account with that name, received his role PM, and just said "Hey, I guess i've got a nice name that will allow me to post in a convoluted manner just to confuse people!".

Sure it's an infinitesimally small possibility, but it's a far stretch from the logical conclusion that this posting style was the premise behind his alt account to begin with. The fact that you jump to such a stretch in the first place just to validify your OMGUS vote (Which had some poor reasoning to begin with) is incredibly scummy.

Moving forward - Why do you see the lack of scum hunting from Time Traveling Scumhunter problematic but you make no comment on the lack of scum hunting from Rach, Shadow, Jackal or literally half of the player base? Are you implying that it's only scummy to not scum hunt if you do it in an obscure manner?

Yeah I'm annoyed now because I have to depart from the way that I usually play and make an effort to actually explain something that should have been obvious the first time I raised it as a point.

It's not the aspect of how he's choosing to post, it's the actual content of what's in the post. (Which aside from the tunnelvision on me is a big giant black hole of nothing.)

A demonstration:

Stuff about Zach: Blah blah blah blah, lots of stuff.

Stuff about anyone or anything else: Big fat 0.

Presume I get lynched and flip town, what is my lynch going to tell you about what Mr. Time Traveler thinks about anything else in this game? Absolutely nothing. THAT'S THE POINT I'm making here.

The thematic style of what he's posting really isn't relevant. My assertion that he's using it to hide a black hole of nothing is.

This is really the first major trinket of anything I've really had to go on. My reads have been in flux because there's really been a whole lot of nothing going on, and I'm disliking what Time Traveler is doing because all he's doing is focusing on one of the most active players in the game, (IE: Me) which is going to have a net effect of encouraging players to continue doing exactly what they are doing.

I haven't really found anyone's lack of activity particularly noteworthy aside from that. Rach's claiming real life issues, and I was going to call her on the fact that she's been active on site and in other games, but I located a post where she said the same thing in another game, so I'm somewhat uneasy about her, but eh... I'm not going to doubt that she has too much on her plate at present time.

Shadow's done next to nothing, but that's on par with his site activity at present time. I'm expecting him to flake out, if he deliberately avoids doing that for an extended period of time while maintaining this level of nothing, I'll become more interested in him really quickly.

Jackal I've already covered. My read on him is in flux cause he pretty much just waffled rather than explain his vote on Fuduzn. I don't know if he was retreating from that position as scum or if he's just playing really really weak. I'm frustrated with that.

Everyone else. Dunno, I'd say my strongest townread is Robo, and that venmar is a town lean read. I'd say leaning town on Fuduzn and you as well. (Which is why I am irritated with your vote right now.)

That would be where I'm at. Of the low activity players right now, Time Traveler seems to be the most invested in what he's doing (Vs everyone else lack of investment which is more null to me than anything.) and I don't like it at all because what he seems to be invested in doesn't look productive to me in the least.

[Zachrulez]

Morton, I think you have a very different idea of what I'm attacking vs what I'm actually attacking. I can see where you're getting the conclusion, but I'm having a hard time trying to bridge the separation we apparently have on the matter.

I'm not conceding anything I actually posted, I just think you're in a different place on what I'm posting vs what I'm actually trying to convey.

[Zachrulez]

How many games have you guys played together?

[Zachrulez]

Well this just got a lot more interesting.

[Zachrulez]

Where on earth did I say his tunnel vision is scummy I did not. However if you look at the other game he so graciously pointed out, you will find that he pushed a fair bit on my predecessor (Field Armada), and he continued a pattern of tunneling on other players til he was lynched.

Both the games he and I were in he was town. I think he is town but not looking at the big picture and tunneling too much.

The problem is that you said he has a tendency to tunnel you regardless of your alignment, and he pretty effectively refuted that. You didn't say he had a tendency to tunnel in general.

[Zachrulez]

And also tunneling is when you tend to have the same suspect no matter information is presented to you to indicate they aren't scum or that someone else is. I get the impression that when you say he tunneled your predecessor and other players (plural) that he wasn't actually guilty of tunneling anyone because that shows an ability to shift suspicions as he gained new information.

[Zachrulez]

In reality, I think you're upset that I have the gall to go after

you

, the most established player in the game who is actually active. Your cries of "OH MY WORD, HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT ANYONE ELSE" seem to provide evidence of this. I think as town you'd probably be likely to shrug it off, but here you feel like you're playing well, so why should a BAD (from your perspective) attack be able to succeed. Or something. So you want to punish me. Even though you don't believe me to be scum. In fact, I suspect you know I'm not scum.

So that's what this is about. How established I am.

[Zachrulez]

Stuff about Zach: Blah blah blah blah, lots of stuff.

Stuff about anyone or anything else: Big fat 0.

<skipping some stuff>

This is really the first major trinket of anything I've really had to go on. My reads have been in flux because there's really been a whole lot of nothing going on, and I'm disliking what Time Traveler is doing because all he's doing is focusing on one of the most active players in the game, (IE: Me) which is going to have a net effect of encouraging players to continue doing exactly what they are doing.

I haven't really found anyone's lack of activity particularly noteworthy aside from that.

Note the complete disconnect here. He's pissed that I go after him, an active player who has actually done something scummy. Then he TURNS AROUND and says "oh. there's nothing noteworthy in this game."

Well gosh. Which is it?

Yeah this is a pretty big misrep.

[Zachrulez]

The nothing I was referring to was a void in activity, which doesn't even come close to saying that there's nothing noteworthy in the game et all.

[Zachrulez]

Popping in to

VOTE: RachMarie

I've seen her as town and scum (I was also in that newbie game that Morton linked where she flipped scum) and am getting mostly scum-vibes from her posts so far.

Pretty scummy vote.

The easy target becomes scummy.

[Zachrulez]

To: 24-hours in the future
From: TTSH

Re: Zach's motivations and his attempts to muddy the water

So that's what this is about. How established I am.

It's about your thiny veiled OMGUS vote and what your motivations are for doing it. In this case, I think you're upset that I nailed you as scum for what you don't think was scummy. You think you've been active, and you think you're the most established player here, so you lash out in pique.

Contrast that to what I think you'd do as town, which is to roll your eyes at me and move on.

I could think my actions are not scummy because I'm actually not scum. Novel concept I know.

The nothing I was referring to was a void in activity, which doesn't even come close to saying that there's nothing noteworthy in the game et all.

Popping in to

VOTE: RachMarie

I've seen her as town and scum (I was also in that newbie game that Morton linked where she flipped scum) and am getting mostly scum-vibes from her posts so far.

Pretty scummy vote.

The easy target becomes scummy.

Now you're just throwing stuff out there to try and muddy the waters. Because this comparison fails (take notice of how I am about to describe why it fails rather than just say "big misrep" as if that somehow explains everything).

First, it fails completely because while my criticism was that you just wanted to lynch easy targets, my own actions have been completely opposite as I've gone after you for your scumminess. The expectation of town-zach is not that I think you'd ONLY ever go after hard targets. It's just that I think you'd probably not focus on easy ones. Unless you think you're an "easy target" this reasoning doesn't need to go any further.

Starting here, I don't scumhunt this way, so your entire analysis in this regard is faulty. I indiscriminately hunt for scummy play, I don't take into account whether the person committing the actions is an "easy target."

Also going to note that attacking someone for going after an "easy target" is lazy play. It's a very easy thing to attack. (For example, I could villify everyone on the Rach wagon as going after an easy target since her wagon has formed while she's apparently had real life issues if I completely ignore that her play has actually been scummy and that the wagon is warranted.)

Second, I didn't follow my commentary on the scummy vote with "My vote is because he's not advancing the game" as you did because my goal isn't to get lynches without actually taking responsibility for a bad lynch.

Are you assuming Jackal is a bad lynch? How would you know that exactly? Also how can you possibly know I'll avoid responsibility for a lynch I am on? This is magical knowledge of the future you are ninjaing into the discussion where you hope to lynch me on hypothetical arguments regardless of whether they actually prove true.

[Zachrulez]

I bought a new computer this weekend and have been sidetracked with setting it up. With that in mind I'm going to

V/LA until Monday Morning.

[Zachrulez]

^ Ok that's enough for me.

VOTE: Time Traveling Scumhunter

This is a weak vote. I don't even know why you're voting for him.

I find Timetravellers tunneling of Zach very weird. I usually don't find tunneling a scum tell, most of the time just a null tell because both town and scum can use it effectively, but TimeTraveller is hardcore tunneling that it is becoming concerning. He has only really been addressing one person the whole game without really pointing out anything else, like Robocopter nicely explained in his last post. Another to note that TTS's tunneling isn't filled with sound evidence, and rather someone who wants to look extra townie by going against the grain and attacking one of the less scummier players in the game, Zach. Twisting people's words does not equal a case.

I still need to reread the thread a bit before i change my vote or anything. Probably going to vote TTS though.

Note this as an uncast vote for TTS which is important because...

Says a major tunneler

Tunneling by itself is not always a scum tell, however several people have asked TTS for reads on OTHER players besides just Zach. So far he has not complied, not even shown interest in anyone other than Zach. This could be a scum ploy to appear to be scum hunting when not.

To make it clearer:

@TTS What is your reads and thoughts on the players who are NOT Zach ?

To help get a response....

VOTE: TTS

This really bothers me because of the timing from Venmar's post and how suddenly she slapped this down. It also doesn't really jibe with positions she's previously taken.

@ Robo

TBF Mort does NOT change votes much.

ATM I feel that Venmar and Jackal are the most scummy, however caveat with Jackal is he always seems scummy even when he is VT or a PR. uggh.

I am going to look at ISOs tonight and put my vote on somewhere more solid. I am feeling more and more like Robo is probably town.

BIG GIANT RED LIGHT! Of the two players she considers scummiest one of them cast a weak unreasoned vote on TTS, and the other has stated an interest in voting for him. I don't see how you can genuinely state those two players are suspicious and then not be concerned by the votes they cast. So the thing here is that you get Rach taking a position in one regard on these two players, but then acting on the most popular bandwagon, which doesn't make any sense because what is giving it fuel is the players that she previously stated suspicion on.

The statement doesn't resolve with the action, the vote looks opportunistic as hell to me.

Unvote: Vote: Rach

TTS wagon has suddenly turned sour for me.

[Zachrulez]

Why did you unvote just because Rach is at L-1?

It's not actually connected, I don't like my vote lying on some person for long periods of time.

Why not?

The TTS wagon seemed to provoke no interesting responses from him, so didn't seem prudent to continue voting for him?

Does the lack of interesting response make him less likely to be scum vs when you said you were comfortable with the vote, or is it something else?

[Zachrulez]

Does anyone care to counter that claim?

[Zachrulez]

Oh and

unvote:

for now.

To eliminate the risk of a quickhammer.

[Zachrulez]

Deadline's starting to become an issue.

We need TTS to declare whether he's countering or not, and I'm waiting for that before I do anything.

[Zachrulez]

... I was just previewing a post where I was going to vote Jackal, but now it would be the hammer.

Why is everyone talking about some non-existent counter claim? What scum would put themselves in a 1v1 D1 for a role that is less effective than the rest of the roles save for the fact that they are confirmable.

It doesn't make logical sense, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible that it happened. In this case it seems it didn't.

We need TTS to declare whether he's countering or not, and I'm waiting for that before I do anything.

^Posts like this are bad. You're saying your going to wait for a counter claim which has a pretty much non-existent chance of happening before you actually decide where to go? Why do you even need a potential counter claim before moving forward? It seems pretty clear cut if an incredibly unlikely counter claim ever does happen we are going back on the Rach wagon.[/quote]

Like I said above, just because it's a bad play doesn't mean that it's impossible that it actually happened. Scum make mistakes and play poorly just like townies do. I wanted that possibility exhausted before I went and contributed a vote to another lynch.

I was interested in seeing if TTS had anything to say being that I was in a position to hammer him up into Jackal self voted, but now that he's not at lynch -1, there's no benefit for waiting for that because the situation is gone.

Jackal, can you post your reads on everyone? Why did you self vote? (I want to see if he actually responds to these questions before I hammer.)

[Zachrulez]

Scum these days are apparently too smart to fall for that anymore...

I have, in the past, caught scum with that gambit. In a 2-scum setup, sacrificing 1 town for a near-guaranteed scum lynch the next day is overall a good trade.

Link(s)?

[Zachrulez]

The question for me is whether the gambit he's claiming is genuine or not.

[Zachrulez]

So the heat has been steadily shifting toward Jackal, and thinking about it I don't really have much of a clue on him other than the fact that my gut tells me he's town.

Cue 6 days of lurking from TTS. (Whose last post was a "not countering" post.) To me it seems like TTS is content to let the day shift toward a Jackal lynch without lifting a finger of his own to make it happen. That kinda goes to when he was attacking me earlier accusing me of trying secure lynches without taking responsibility for them. Staying on me when I'm clearly not going to be lynched is the ultimate in avoiding responsibility for a lynch by having a vote that's somewhere that's actually useful.

So yeah, I'm declaring my intention to hammer TTS. (Who I believe is currently at 4 votes.) If nothing changes by this time tomorrow, I will cast my vote for TTS then.

[Zachrulez]

I am pretty sure doctors simply flip doctor.

Everyone targeting Rach would save her from death, but it would also require every doctor role to be on her which gives the scum the ability to easily kill anyone else.

[Zachrulez]

CPR will NOT try to kill Rach because he protects his target should it be killed, so he protects her from either the mafia kill or the quack doctor. So she should still have 2 protections left after both attempts,

Doctors just flip doctor. You aren't told which type of doctor you are, it isn't in your PM, so you flip just "doctor". If people flipped their real sanity/modifier, it would start to narrow down peoples own modifier and sanity, it could really help town i think.

How come you don't know this? Don't you have a doctor pm?

To be fair, the doctor role pm itself doesn't tell you what you'll be revealed as. I had to actually just look up the setup in the wiki to confirm that doctors simply flip "doctor".

[Zachrulez]

Oh right, I forgot I have to wait at least 24 hours for TTS to be able to react to my intention to hammer, and we'll have to wait 24 more for a reaction to Fuduzn's.

Just getting a tad ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

Zach let's make it easy. Pretty clear that TTS will claim Doc, and I know it is against the norm, but right now it is about 12:43 local time. I go to play volleyball at 6, but if TTS hasn't posted I will hammer no later then 5:30.

Good/bad?

I'm probably going to hammer him earlier than that.

[Zachrulez]

Like right now...

Vote: Time Traveling Scumhunter

Because what I'm waiting for should have already been posted and there isn't much point in dragging out what is clearly inevitable at this point.

[Zachrulez]

I can live with that Zach.

And Venmar, what is wrong with volleyball?

Beach Volleyball or Indoor Volleyball?

[Zachrulez]

Technically it is grass volleyball, outdoors in a park.

There's usually a group of people doing that when I walk by the park with my wife. Is it hot and humid where you are?

[Zachrulez]

I don't know if you guys want to say who you targeted, but I'll say right now that I targeted yellowbounder.

[Zachrulez]

Robocopter - ???
RachMarie - No action
YellowBounder - Rach
Zachrulez- Yellowbounder
Fuduzn - Morton
Morton - ???
Venmar - Morton

Let me know if I got any of that wrong so far.

I protected Rach. Rach, who did you protect?

Why did you chose to popcorn Rach instead of Robo or Mort?

I also don't really care who claims first between Robocopter and Mort. We only have two weeks to figure something out here and I don't want to spend a sizable portion of it fighting over who claims first between Robo and Mort. If it will help move things along and get us past the massclaim, I'd be fine with Robo claiming first and having Mort explain why he wanted to claim last after the fact.

[Zachrulez]

Oh hai Yellowbounder.

Why did you chose to popcorn Rach instead of Robo or Mort?

[Zachrulez]

I'm sure you have a reason behind the question but I don't understand why he would choose me/mort over Rach. I wasn't aware of popcorn techniques, whenever I did it I would just kinda throw it to anyone.

Well the idea is to make people you're suspicious of claim right after you.

Yeah, first to die, you assume his doctorly powers.

And when I said popcorn claiming, I meant:

That someone says what they did last night, and then picks someone else. Who then says what they did last night, and then picks someone else. And so on. Scum can't manipulate the order to their advantage that way.

He understands the idea behind popcorning, but popcorning a confirmed town underminds the entire idea behind it.

[Zachrulez]

Updated for personal reference and otherwise.

Robocopter - No action
RachMarie - No action
YellowBounder - Rach
Zachrulez- Yellowbounder
Fuduzn - Morton
Morton - Jackal
Venmar - Morton

[Zachrulez]

First things first, neither me nor FuDuzn were roleblocked. We also both know that we aren't weak doctors since no one targeted us and we lived through targeting Morton. We also should not forget that 1 doctor has died and the other has been taken over by Rach.

I uhhhh, don't follow how you eliminated weak doctor as a possibility.

[Zachrulez]

- Yeah, sorry Zach i just realized Morton could have been town and our protection went through. Sorry about that. It does, however, mean that if me or FuDuzn are a Weak Doctor, Morotn isn't scum. But we don't know if we are, so assuming Morton is town is not in order.

I'm not assuming he is on that basis, I'm just pointing out the fact that your basis presumed he was scum.

[Zachrulez]

I would have preferred everyone sent in an action, mostly due to the possibility of effectively getting vig kills on scum, but I don't think Robo claims no action as scum.

[Zachrulez]

Robo makes a good point, we should still focus on good ol'fashoined scumhunting and not spend the whole day trying to figure out exactly who did what. In fact he brought up another good point, scum could very easily be using this set up against us and could very well be pushing this talk about who did what as a sort of smokescreen(Venmar and Zach I am looking in your direction).

I'm not really that interested in trying to figure out doc actions too much, the tree of possibilities is simply far too complex. (Venmar's speculation was based on some false premises that I felt the need to debunk.)

I don't think scum can possibly can get that much control over the setup anyway, but you've just helped my POE by showing me paranoia that's more likely to come from a town perspective than from a scum one.

That makes me more comfortable with the idea of today's lynch being between Yellowbounder and Venmar. (I have town reads on Mort and Robo.)

Vote: Venmar

[Zachrulez]

Yellowbounder? What made you so suspicious of him all of the sudden?

There really isn't an all of the sudden. I've never had better than a null read on the slot and if you read 338, it's pretty clear that I considered him to be a worthy vig target. Popcorning to Rach is also at least moderately scummy, there's no reason from a town perspective to do that especially given that he seemed to be aware of the value of popcorning in the first place. (Popcorning to Rach has a 0% chance of forcing a scum to fakeclaim.)

[Zachrulez]

Jackal was probably a CPR Doctor or Paranoid doctor victim, i didn't see why anyone would protect him, or why the mafia would kill him.

Still depends, Morton looks like a decent target for the mafia, or he could be scum himself. We need more target claims first. But i do know that i am not scum.

Those theories for Morton scum sure start looking nice once Morton gets some heat don't they?

[Zachrulez]

Meanwhile you post a wall that contains bandwagon analysis which is the refuge of scum, and make other posts that ride on Morton after the fact about his criticism of Jackal and how the whole overplaying his meta point was wrong. It's a whole thing if "you should have known better" filled in with the power of hindsight! Yee haw!

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and activity overview says I have made the most posts of any player in this game.

How's that for not saying much?

[Zachrulez]

I'm not really that interested in trying to figure out doc actions too much, the tree of possibilities is simply far too complex. (Venmar's speculation was based on some false premises that I felt the need to debunk.)

- What have you done so far to this post? Right, you just made some small list of night actions by everyone, which quite frankly just looks like an attempt to look active, and pester YB about popcorning Rachmarie. As town, I find focusing on a player because they chose to popcorn someone you disagree with instead of other things like analysis or scumhunting just comes off as a weird focus for town, sounds more like scum trying to make up shenanigans. The thing is, you have a town read on Morton and Robocopter, but yet you still act as if they are scum when you address Yellowbounder about his popcorn.

How is focusing on that fact not scumhunting? You're trying to defeat the points I'm making from my point of view when I'm attacking how his actions don't make sense from his.

It's not even about the fact that he was potentially trying to set up a hypothetical scumbuddy to claim last. (That's only ONE of the possibilities.) There's a much larger point here in that from HIS point of view... HIS... not mine, he should be wanting one of Robo or Mort to claim after him. Popcorning Rach to claim next makes 0 sense from a town perspective.

Let me draw a little map here for you. If he's town, he doesn't know their alignment, but he can be pretty confident in Rach's. In that situation it makes a hell of a lot more sense to ask one of them to claim, especially when you understand the benefits of popcorning.

If he's scum, then of course there's the possibility that his scumbuddy hasn't claimed yet, and popcorning Rach means that there's a chance his buddy can claim last. But see, that also ignores the fact that his buddy (Which would be you based on who I am finding scummy at the moment.) has already claimed and from a scum perspective he really doesn't care who claims next so he just fired off Rach's name for the hell of it. (With my suspicions I am favoring the latter ATM)

Anyway, that would be how it makes more sense from a scum perspective. Yes I know there's the argument that he just didn't put a lot of thought into it as town, but I weigh that as a lesser possibility than the scum side of the equation given the post he made about the benefit of popcorning.

If you can't see that, then you just DON'T want to see it.

That makes me more comfortable with the idea of today's lynch being between Yellowbounder and Venmar. (I have town reads on Mort and Robo.)

Vote: Venmar

- Are you voting me because not being paranoid is a scummy thing? You seem to sheep and agree with FuDuzn about how he says we should return to old fashioned scumhunting, but instead of doing just that you choose to follow his train of thought, sheep his idea, and vote for me, without doing what you agree was a good thing. ( Scumhunting )

PEdit: Hilarious!! I vote you and throw flak on you and all of the sudden here you are turtling into a overly defensive shell. how is this not scummy?

My vote on you is based on how heavily setup and bandwagon analysis is influencing your scumhunting. Both of these methods are a great way to paint someone as being scum without actually having concrete positions behind them. (For example your assertion that it was unlikely Jackal was the scum kill and how easily that position shifted to being more critical of Morton once heat came his way.) Basically I am saying that I am reading your play as fake scumhunting.

As for being defensive. Yes, when someone says you are scum you are going to defend yourself from those attacks. You don't see me going "OMG look how defensive Venmar is getting, so insanely scummy". Calling defensiveness scummy is a way to just push a lynch in a manner that keeps people from looking at both sides of the equation.

[Zachrulez]

Meanwhile you post a wall that contains bandwagon analysis which is the refuge of scum, and make other posts that ride on Morton after the fact about his criticism of Jackal and how the whole overplaying his meta point was wrong. It's a whole thing if "you should have known better" filled in with the power of hindsight! Yee haw!

- Congratulations, you are trying to make me look worse by predicting something i wasn't planning on doing.

This is not predicting, it is reacting. My reaction is that your attacks on Morton are not coming from a position of actually thinking he is scum but are coming from finding him to suddenly be a very nice target for a lynch.

Oh, and activity overview says I have made the most posts of any player in this game.

How's that for not saying much?

- That doesn't say anything, it just means you're more active. All your telling me in this post is that # of posts = Pro-Town, which is not true at all. If you look into your Day 2 posts, you didn't say much at all, and what you did was you followed FuDuzn and contributed in the doctor analysis that i did, which you called scummy. Also note that this post and yours before it, are in no way saying much.

I'm not saying # of posts = Pro-Town. I'm saying I'm more active than you're making me out to be, and that you're using a spat of less active play from a period of massclaim to promote that image.

[Zachrulez]

I can't really say a whole lot to for some reason.

[Zachrulez]

Why did the activity drop by a whole day or so? Did i catch some scum? HMMMMMMM!?!?!

This game has generally had low activity and more than one place where activity has dropped. So it makes no sense to try to attribute this particular drop to anything anymore significant than the previous drops or the low activity in general.

Assuming you care about actual activity analysis anyway...

[Zachrulez]

It worked for Jackal so it'll work for you?...

[Zachrulez]

Why focus so much energy on Morton's position on Jackal from day 1 if your conclusion is that he's town? What's the point of being so critical of it?

Like seriously, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything but attempting to draw suspicion to him.

[Zachrulez]

It worked for Jackal so it'll work for you?...

- Also this reaction is bad.

Why bad? You're just declaring without explaining why.

[Zachrulez]

If you don't think the actions are significant indicators that he is scum, bringing them up and drawing attention to them is useless you have an ulterior motive for doing so.

[Zachrulez]

Having stomach issues, missed a day of work today. I'll have another look at this tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not interested in lynching Morton today.

Unvote: Vote: Yellowbounder

Not really satisfied with his reasoning for voting for Morton as it seems to put across the bare minimum. I could say the same thing about his play as well, what he's posting sounds town enough, but when you look under the surface you can't really say he's been giving a whole lot.

[Zachrulez]

Aw, come on Zach, I was starting to suspect you were town, don't ruin it.

- Mother of OMGUS.

- I really would prefer a Zach lynch. What i don't understand at the moment is why Zach targeted Yellowbounder during last night and now wants to lynch him, which kind of doesn't really check out logically.

What part of the logical leap are you having trouble with?

[Zachrulez]

- "Protecting" Yellowbounder during the night, but wanting to lynch him the next day.

You're presuming my intention for targeting him was protection in the first place. I kinda touched on it in 338. My mentality in choosing my action was assume one of the killing doctors first and hope for a scum vig, and then adjust play as information starts to indicate otherwise.

Preview Edit: Rach, Mort could also be a CPR doc. That is workable if Jackal wasn't targeted by any other killable role.

[Zachrulez]

No I mean I was hoping that I'd vig a scum.

I didn't assume I would actually end up killing, I just chose my actions assuming I could. I figured that if I was a CPR or Quack, that targeting a null/scum read would be a better way to go than finding that out after killing a town read. Getting a scum flip out of something like that is obviously a better outcome.

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly?

[Zachrulez]

Sorry for forgetting FuDuzn.. i guess? The difference is I find Zach scummy and FuDuzn is a null read, so i am more interested in pushing Zach than FuDuzn.

I get the focus on me. What I want to know is how the action is scummy. You ignored my "why exactly?" question.

[Zachrulez]

Aw, come on Zach, I was starting to suspect you were town, don't ruin it.

I took this as a veiled threat to move my vote, which means I'm totally not going to.

[Zachrulez]

Actually you know what ven? First instinct is usually the correct instinct(I hate voting off of gut though).
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zach

It's wrong in this case.

[Zachrulez]

Actually you know what ven? First instinct is usually the correct instinct(I hate voting off of gut though).
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zach

It's wrong in this case.

- Your defense is marvelous, 10/10, would be convinced again.

And I'm supposed to defend myself against a gut based vote how?

Him saying it's gut based at it's core means he doesn't have any reasoning beyond it. There's nothing to defend against other than to say his gut is wrong. The only thing I can suggest is that he try to look for a logical basis to back up his gut vote and act accordingly based on whether or not he's satisfied that there's sound logic or not, but that's up to him at this point. (Assuming he's town which is my belief right now.)

Preview Edit: God you guys are dense. You can't defend yourself against gut.

[Zachrulez]

This fucking game... seriously.

[Zachrulez]

Yes you can Zach... If you feel he is wrong making a case based on gut, do you think he is misguided town or scum? Why ? Make a case on him as being the one you feel he is.

I don't think it needs to be said that I feel he's wrong. I think he's misguided as hell town. There's meta from a newbie game I would reference where I was scum and he read me incorrectly (if memory serves me correctly) for most of the game and how I feel this is overcompensation for that, (A gut scum read for the entire game.) but the game itself was erased in the great site crash earlier this year.

I think he's town because his reads and voting patterns have been all over the place. It's a leap I make based on the fact that when I've been lost as town that's how I tended to play in the past and still have somewhat of a tendency to do. It contrasts from scum as scum generally know what they want do and their reads and voting patterns won't tend to be in as much flux. It's not a hard rule, but my own scum experiences tend to bear it out.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, I would urge everyone to look particularly at Yellowbounder... most especially his response to my vote. It's very clearly a veiled threat that is an attempt to influence my vote to move. This is not a play you see from town. (You also won't see this scumtell dropped often but it is a rather significant one.)

[Zachrulez]

Newbie 1194 you are referencing Zach, and yes I had you pegged as town the whole game(and I wish that game wasn't lost, it would offer some good meta). But while I am using my memory of that game to try to get a good read on you, and am not overcompensating or anything, that seems like a weird thing to say.

I wish the game could be referenced too. My scum vs town play is like night and day.

[Zachrulez]

I'll point at my meta all I like.

People can make whatever conclusions they want from that.

[Zachrulez]

@Fuduzn: Do you remember any specific similarities or is the sticking point that I am apparently reading you the same? (Not reading you the way you'd expect me to?)

[Zachrulez]

And I even remember saying that I try to be hard to read, and when someone has me pegged at obv town early in a game(like you did in that game and in this game), it makes me wonder.

I remember some kind of town read on you in that game. Looking at my own iso in this game I don't see an instance where I pegged you obvtown. (All instances of pegging you town are town leans.)

[Zachrulez]

My thought process was that I read your posts and viewed your actions, seriously I have repeated myself a million times here. I did not like how you refused to claim until everone else did and got snotty when questioned about it, to me this seemed to come from a scum perspective. When I brought this up a few other players commented on it(funny how some poeple were able to get what I was saying, isn't it?) and essentially said this is mort being mort. Then Robo decided that he wanted to forget that anybody else was playing this game and then I had to defend myself. I now feel after you reactions and others reactions(besides Robos) that you are town. Hence why I am voting Zach now.

I had mentioned most of what I just said already in previous posts, my bad I didn't just put it into one giant wall of text

What do you think about the fact that I claimed first?

[Zachrulez]

I'm just curious what claiming first equals when claiming last seems to be scummy.

[Zachrulez]

The only real thing that jumped out at me about the timing of the claims was Morts insistance that he goes last.

If it's scummy... why exactly is it?

[Zachrulez]

Deadline's coming up. If my vote is going to move it's going to have to be tonight, as I'm getting on a plane tomorrow afternoon headed for California. I'm also going to be V/LA from that point until next Sunday.

[Zachrulez]

I have to move my vote now or I won't have a chance to before deadline, and having it where it is now probably isn't going to help us get a lynch.

Unvote: Vote: Fuduzn

[Zachrulez]

Scum is pretty clear in my head. Although this is LyLo i believe, so i'm not going to be voting yet.

We're going to popcorn the night actions first though, starting with me.

I targeted Rachmarie last night.

Zach? Who did you target.

Same.

Robocopter.

[Zachrulez]

By same I mean I targeted Rach, and I'm picking Robo to go next, just so that there isn't any confusion.

[Zachrulez]

Just felt like saying this.. I called Morton to be more likely town, and I had no interest in a FuDuzn lynch.

ZachRulez or RoboCopter, one of you two are scum gentlemen.

I targeted you. I thought you were the most town and with Morton being a vig I figured the odds of me killing you were slim.

Yes we seem to have a dilemma on our hands.

Now you can't simply push it down to just me and Zach, unless I am missing something then you aren't cleared either. Rach however, is confirmed.


However I don't think it is you, I feel you are entirely town.

Zach however, is left due to PoE and this,

Aw, come on Zach, I was starting to suspect you were town, don't ruin it.

I don't think that any scum player would target a town player like this, he acts like he think he is scum but doesn't push it. Simply moving on and leaving Zach alone. That doesn't sit well with me.

Yeah Robo guess what? He wanted me to move my vote and threatened suspicion to get me to do it. That's textbook scum on town.

That you want to paint that as something else is interesting.

ohhh oops I thought there was another one still ok no worries I protected you Robo.

So at least we know I do not have one of the bad docs.

Not necessarily. If you were targeted by the paranoid doctor your action would have been blocked.

Actually it is MYLO if we lynch the wrong person today then scum can NK and win

Assuming the kill doesn't get blocked one way or another, yes that would be correct.

I'd lean Robo for scum right now, but I'm really uncertain right now. Venmar if scum would have been going out of his way to keep his buddy out of the spotlight and Robo just had suspicion of Yellow come out of nowhere and I can't remember where or if he bothered to qualify his suspicion.

I could see both aspects coming from scum, but when one is trying to look town, I'd pick the guy posturing suspicion over the one that didn't seem interested in the scum at all. (That's just my experience talking right now.)

[Zachrulez]

Votecount 2.06

FuDuzn (2) - Robocopter87, Mortontfrh
Zachrulez (2) - Venmar, FuDuzn
Mortontfrh (1) - yellowbounder
yellowbounder (1) - Zachrulez
Venmar (0) -

none

RachMarie (0) -

none

Robocopter87 (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (1) - RachMarie

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline: (expired on 2012-08-04 11:02:25)

You know what Robo? No, I'm not going to sit here and defend myself from the idea that I'm scum for being the only player to actually fucking vote scum on day 2. I'm not going to sit here and listen to you say that what he did makes no sense and makes me scum, or that my reasoning for going after him was somehow bad bussing on the basis that I only did it for WIFOM to my scum wincon. It's an absolutely batshit insane theory and that's how it deserves to be responded to.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, and his non interaction with you and Venmar can be seen as just as incriminating from an associative perspective. Do you have a case based on my PLAY, or do you just want to argue my lynch on lazy associative grounds?

[Zachrulez]

I'm too lazy to really bring up any cases, but the night action for Zach night 1 is pretty convenient if they are scum together, and this night it also seems convenient that he protected Rach.

I could have pretty much claimed to have protected anyone if I was scum with Yellowbounder, I didn't necessarily need to claim an action on him, or even claim first.

Rach was pretty much the obvious play for any doctors that have been shown not to kill through n1 actions, and look who's action sticks out like a sore thumb?

Honestly Rach's the deciding vote here and from her perspective it's a 33% chance of victory lynching today. The optimal play here is to no lynch and get Rach into a 3 way as that's a 50/50 shot of a town win.

Vote: No lynch

[Zachrulez]

Rach was pretty much the obvious play for any doctors that have been shown not to kill through n1 actions, and look who's action sticks out like a sore thumb?

I'm talking about Robo's Venmar protect. Look at that one from an objective perspective and tell me it makes sense for him to have done that. (For anything other than "I think you're town, vote the way I'd like you to and we got this." appeal)

Honestly Rach's the deciding vote here and from her perspective it's a 33% chance of victory lynching today. The optimal play here is to no lynch and get Rach into a 3 way as that's a 50/50 shot of a town win.

Vote: No lynch

[/quote]

I don't have any confidence I can influence anything, but the best I can do is play the math of it.

[Zachrulez]

Oh I'd already posted. I thought I could have preview edited.

Oh well.

[Zachrulez]

Oh I'd already posted. I thought I could have preview edited.

Oh well.

Oh derp, it was a follow up post. I need to stop posting now before I get too confused about what I'm actually trying to post.

My head's not all here as you can see.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, I intended only to follow up on 536 with the first paragraph, and then I forgot to cut out the rest of the post to quote the part I wanted to follow up on and then somehow thought I hadn't posted 536 yet.

[Zachrulez]

I suspect I'm the paranoid doctor for what it's worth... (Which is a long way from conclusively being one... anyway.)

We're going to Vegas tomorrow morning until Saturday and I don't think we're taking the laptop so I'm pretty much going to have no access until Saturday.

[Zachrulez]

What did you expect Robo? There are 4 people left alive in the game with Rach and Zach on V/LA. You can't really expect that much activity, considering I have been a bit busy as well.

RachMarie needs at least two protects, on the off side one of us is actually a CPR doctor, but i doubt that. From my point of view, Zach is scum so I don't trust him enough to be on Rach, I propose that me and Robocopter protect Rach, Rach can protect me or Robo, and Zach protects one the two of us as well. Of course, this is from my point of view and it is going to be leaving Zach out as vulnerable, but we need to keep in my mind that me or Robo could still be a Naive doctor or a CPR doctor, so a second protect just in case should guarantee Rach at least a safe go through the night. Rach needs to guess correctly which of the three of us are going to get killed though, or at least save who she thinks is the likeliest to be town. Idk what Zach wants to do, I think he is scum so w/e.

That's from my point of view really.

Since there seems to be a pretty general belief that I'm scum, me being vulnerable to die is actually a desirable outcome IMO.

I'm down for whatever Rach is ok with.

[Zachrulez]

I banked on Rach being CPR or quack and thinking Robo was town and she was actually protecting, and it worked perfectly.

Which given your opinion on me Ven was the only thing that was gonna work.

Anyway, YAY!

[Zachrulez]

*and thinking she was actually protecting.

[Zachrulez]

Also I had sussed that I was probably the jailkeeper, but I was afraid to protect either Robo or Venmar as per the plan as I was worried that the scum was banking on that opening her up for the kill.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, just saw the scum failed to send in a kill, so it's hilarious that I happened to be correct about being the jailkeeper with that in mind.

[Zachrulez]

Now if I could just get you guys to listen to me when I've caught scum...

[Zachrulez]

I am really glad Robo was scum, at least it explains his incredible murderboner for me and not listening to reason.

And I guess Zach is only scum in 50% of the games I have played with him now.

Actually no.

I listen to reason, where didn't I?

No offense, but you were a super simple mislynch.

Your shift to Fuduzn actually ended up being one of the first things that got me suspicious of you.

[Zachrulez]

Shift's probably the wrong word because I think that was your first vote that day, but the pursuit didn't add up to me. Felt off.

Preview Edit: You would have, but I jailed you the first night Rach.

[Zachrulez]

Would have saved me a massive headache had I not done that...