Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[Korlash]

Woohoo!

Vote: Rolash

BURN WITH ME!

[Korlash]

Fucker can't even spell my name...

Wait that was rude... Is that the kind of man I am? Come on everybody... say it with me... Rude and not ginger!

You all know you wanted to...

[Korlash]

Actually, the most impressive thing about you, kortul, is that after all this time, you're still bone-dead stupid. You've got six billion pairs of eyes, but you still can't see the obvious... That vote... Is two inches too tall... =D

So... anyone else bummed one of the coolest 'non-important' characters had to die right at the start? I've always wanted to snog Madame de Pompadour...

[Korlash]

Your words betray you sir, how is it free?

[Korlash]

That's my point... Well... one of them at least...

[Korlash]

The Girl in the Fireplace is probably my favorite Season Two episode.

Aye, I wasn't a huge fan of Rose, all my love goes to Martha <3... But this episode does have a special place in my heart... ;_;

Also, you need a nickname fast... spelling that out hurts my face... ><

I don't think you're the Doctor at all.

Yeah well... that's because I'm Smith...

John Smith... Says so here on this paper... *flashes paper*

[Korlash]

O.o A fan of the DoctorDonna... Don't see many of those around these parts...

Martha had the benefit of being in some of the best episodes, so I'll admit... That love might be a bit biased... but I don't care! <3

[Korlash]

Point of discussion:

Anyone else going to start a riot if David Tennant doesn't get to run the Olympic torch at the end this year?

[Korlash]

No love for Rose? Really? She gets her mom and dad back, reunited with Mickey, and gets to spend her life with the Doctor...

Everyone loves Rose... Lucky... *grumbles*

[Korlash]

Oh Teirce, must you always be the first to commit blasphemy... *shakes fist* But know I love ya...

and Character spoilers are half the fun of these Doctor Who mafias... My first experience with the good Doctor was actually a game of mafia... ;_; Thank you The Master Role PM... You gave me so much....

[Korlash]

Failure to answer my question sir? That's no fun...

[Korlash]

It's free because I handed it to you on a silver platter.

You didn't have to work for it.

You'll have to work for the next one.

As for my character, I'll just say that I am the brains behind the greatest detectives in history.

No you didn't, you 'outed our cop'... that is hardly handing me anything. Thanks to you, a power role is as good as lost. That's hardly free. Not having to work for a day one lynch means having NOTHING to go on day two, that hurts us in the long run. "catching' scum before anything relevant even happens means we gain nothing from the 'caught' scum. Meaning it's not "free" scum, we paid everything 'catching scum' would have netted us to get it. [/done playing along]

It's obvious you're lying given the timing of shit, but it's even more obvious since no town cop gets a guilty page one and doesn't let his scum have time to out his partners. Good day sir, I SAID GOOD DAY.

Also claiming to be Davros, not a good move...

But seriously, Starbuck is scum, more people should vote her.

She's just atoms... An echo with a ghost of consciousness... Just stardust.

[Korlash]

GreyICE is apparently not joking AND from another of my favorite Tenth Doctor episodes.

Oh, right... misread that as 'devices' shit... I should learn to read better...

Sorry, sorry... Carry on...

BTW, Calling you Banna... makes it so much easier...

[Korlash]

I do not understand you here. Do you think that GreyICE is town, or scum?

Lying about something like this on page one does not have any bearing on alignment. I think he's lying, haven't come to an opinion as to an alignment yet. I could see it either way.

[Korlash]

That's definitely not Davros. Think Unicorn and the Wasp.

Look, I've already said I misread him, aight? Can we all move on? Please? I feel shamed enough as it is...

VOTE: Iecerint

I was so tempted to do this first... ahhh... I dislike when we think alike... >.> You aren't trying to one up me are you my lovely Mrs. Smith?

[Korlash]

When you talk about the Doctor, it feels like it will never end. But, however hard you try, you can't do it forever... Sigh... At some point you need to do some

archeology

er... mafia... >.>

[Korlash]

You think that he sent in a day investigation 4 minutes after the day started and the mod sent him back a result?

Agatha Christie's chance at being in this game is slim to none, I have a list of like 25 names that could be here and she was not on it. Now it's not inconceivable, I can see MoS doing it, I totally can... but what are the chances she is our cop over someone like Jack? Or Sarah Jane? or hell, one of the main companions(Donna makes the most sense imo)? Hell, I would have had Madame de Pompadour as a possible power role over Agatha...

And a day cop? ... Actually I have no argument for this... It seems strange to me but I don't know the range that day cops are normally used in. Do they appear in minis often?

Timing and flavor suggest he is lying, Setup... Probably doesn't say anything. His post 36 itself suggests he is lying. What type of person legitimately claims a role(that nets us scum) but only hints at character name? There is no reason a real town cop who found scum AND had already outed himself would hide any details about his role (flavor wise).

@ Zang: Do you and ICE have a history that would explain this?

@ Ice: If this claim of yours is legit, tell us now, claim your flavor, and explain to me (as best you can) the timing of your investigation...

[Korlash]

I think your flavor-outguessing can work both ways, because fakeclaims/jokes are just as likely to be based on the kind of reasoning you cite. For example: Why would GreyICE go for Agatha Christie if he was making a joke (putting aside for a moment the question of why he'd go this far at all)? It's more likely that he went for such a character because it's his actual role.

Not really. [delete]

I just wrote out a bunch of shit and realized if he is lying scum I told him too much. Remind me to come back to this after ICE has finished his claim, kay?

I guess it's possible that he has an Agatha Christie fakeclaim, and that's why he had it on his mind, but that's something to fuss over D2 or later, if ever.

I assume you mean 'safeclaim' as in given by the mod. Yes, that is something I covered, although if she is the best safeclaim MoI could muster I am disheartened a little bit... ;_;

I would actually admit it's far more likely she is an actual role than a safeclaim, although I would only peg her as vanilla tops.

[Korlash]

It is somewhat hard to read so far since i haven't seen a single episode of the series (even checked with MoI to see if this is an issue). If the trend continues i will have to study it more after all, it seems.

Eh, Teircey is right. Eventually we'll start dropping the Doctor references to 2 per page and get into a straight up

omelet bar

, er... mafia game... So no worries... Although, if you're into a great show with the best ever everything and also stuff that is exciting and awesome then I would recommend watching it... I mean, where else do you get great diologue like "The angels have the phone box"? You don't see that on NCIS... well, ok... there was that one episode...

And what do you mean, finally? I asked him a direct question back on page one... Not my fault he took so long to answer it.

[Korlash]

So Jason has the 'fencesitting' and Green has the backwards logic... Zang's 65 irks me...

I might have even voted if it was somebody else.

If it was somebody else that was investigated or someone else doing said investigation?

Consider me persuaded to give it a try. Is it worth to start from the beginning (First Doctor), or are those seasons independent and later seasons will give better initial impressions? (will be watching with a wife and kid).

I would start with the ninth doctor, season 1, and go from there. You don't need to know Eccleston when you start watching Tennant, but it's good to know Rose's backstory so the references make sense.

To me it's natural to get pissed off as town if someone fakeclaims against me, especially if it's someone I don't get along with in the first place, so I'd have read him going "you people are idiots or scum for believing that crap" as a likely town response.

On the other hand, if I was scum and got a claim against me I'd be worried even if the claim looked dubious because I would know the result was true. So yes, I do believe playing it passively to avoid drawing further attention and waiting for Grey to retract the claim to be a more likely scum response - and Zang has been in a purely reactive mode up to this point, only commenting on posts related to himself.

Except half the players in the game were voicing their doubts as to ICE's claim, it was made on page one, and the person making it has yet to back it up. No scum worth their mettle would freak out over that. In addition, I see more town going "You people are idiots" then I do scum...

Considering the only real discussion pertaining to the game so far has been the ICE-Zang thing... why is it weird that all of his posts have been responses to it?

I don't like T-Bones vote/unvote either. He explained it well but it's all wifom? Doesn't make sense being both mate.

And it seems my vote didn't count... Huh... I wonder if this ruins my self vote streak... Does it count? I'm gunna say it does... moving on then...

Vote: T-Bone

Going on a hunch.

Also ICE still not here... makes me sad... someone call in K-9 to track him down...

[Korlash]

I am pretty sure that saying I don't believe GrayICE is not fence sitting, but taking a position.

I merely pointed out some of the possible scenarios which has been twisted to fence sitting.

The fact Zang/Gray have history is reason for Gray to investigate him off the bat.

It is also a reason why he would lie.... I believe this to be the case.

Regardless of which side you toss your coin into, putting both of these side by side is a clear fence sit. You destroy all creditability you gained by picking a side when you reneged on that choice by talking about the 1v1, meaning you are still giving rise to the idea his claim isn't a lie.

Saying "I believe such and such" means nothing if your actions still show you strongly entertaining both possibilities. As it stands though, it's a rather dull fence sit that means very little given the circumstance which is why I paid it little mind.

How?

See the question I asked you for more details...

I don't think it really matters. In my mind I just imagined it as a general situation where someone claimed daycop and said that someone else was guilty in that situation.

It does matter. So you're saying when you said you might have voted were it somebody else you were not talking about either the investigator or the investigated specifically? I find that hard to believe...

Korlash gets to be town today, because he amuses me, even if he's not half as funny as he thinks he is.

I only think I'm half funny to begin with... ;_; You hurt me sir, uncalled for...

Zang is actually town folks. What can I say Hate his guts still.

Are you still sticking with your fake daycop shtick, or is this just a hunch?

I think T-Bone is town.

Explain...

[Korlash]

Mainly because I had the same thoughts as T-Bone going through my head when I read his first post with content.

Then you're missing the point. His 82 is in no way something coming from a townie...

[Korlash]

also, read who's first post? T-Bones? Which post do you consider his first with content? Just so I know I'm on the same page...

[Korlash]

I'm referring to his post about greenknight.

I'm fairly certain you are talking about post 77 but for the record, when you're asked to clear something up like this try using post numbers. Both of his posts were about greenknight mate.

Greenknight's explanation was good enough for me. My vote was to pressure him, not to try and go into a full head of steam lynch. I disagree with his reasons, but just because I disagree with him doesn't mean I have to think of him as scum.

A few things bothered me about your vote/unvote. For starters, you say Green's thing was the

only

thing that stood out to you in this early phase, yet you ran away from the vote after one single post. Not only that, but you 180 and seem to chastise the wagon you were just on. And on top of that, you seem to be in turn defending Greenknight himself. So the only thing that you thought worth commenting on in the early phase, you completely 180 on immediately... and you don't even have a strong belief in what green said because you say you disagree with him.

Wow Triangle he just explained it. It's a good enough explanation for me.

This ^ has no basis coming from a townie. A second ago you were voting Green, but now you've stepped out to comment against someone who has a problem with his explanation. Why did you feel the need to single out Triangle here? Why are you calling out people voting the wagon you were just on, for seemingly no reason?

[Korlash]

Because Triangle was the ONLY one to vote? Crazy I know!

Okay... Why did you even feel the need to comment on his vote at all?

[Korlash]

Im pretty sure thats not fence sitting, but taking a position on it.

taking what amounts to a 'fake' position does not excuse the fence sit mate. You start off the post with reasons he could be telling the truth, say you think he is lying, then suggest a play that relies on him telling the truth.

Why? I didn't think a lot about the situation itself, my point was that the people who are voting me are not scum or idiots for voting me.

I don't believe you would make a statement "if it were somebody else" without having a specific person that you were 'changing' (either yourself or ICE) so this feigned ignorance is suspect to me.

I don't really think Jason is that scummy. It is important for town to consider all possibilities and as long as he took a position, I fail to see how it is fence sitting. What he did might be seen as scummy combined with other reasoning but for now, it is not very scummy.

If I said "this vote of yours looks like a town post, BUT I THINK YOU ARE SCUM FOR IT, but we should lynch the person you are voting..." Would you fail to see how that is in and of itself a fence sit position?(hypothetically, the scenario I have illustrated is too vague to actually accuse one of fence sitting, but it's just an example so blah...) Taking a position means nothing if it's not a strong front. Saying you believe in one thing does not excuse comments that suggest you think the other way.

The fact is Jason's position in disbelieving ICE was not strong at all and it doesn't save him from the fence sitting he did over the claim. However, the explanation of "I was keeping an open mind to all possibilities" does. You are allowed to take up a stance on one side while still playing around on the other side providing you can still provide evidence that you are sticking to that stance. Jason can't (his 'calling it BS' comment proves that enough) but I'm still not seeing him as scum for this.

@Zang, Triangle was the only one to vote between my posts.

Why did you feel the need to comment on his vote at all? (2)

I am not the biggest fan of T-Bone's unvote of Green, especially when his unvote is followed up by a paragraph showing that he's not satisfied with Green's explanation. I also don't particularly see what about Green's explanation made him suddenly seem town (or at least town-er) to T-Bone when he was just expanding on his initial reasoning rather than clarifying a misunderstanding or something of that nature. I'm happier with my vote on Green for now, but I find T-Bone as possible scum too. T-Bone, who do you think is scum right now?

Yeah... I hate it when my hunches play out accordingly... Makes me think someone is trying to play me... *looks at Teirce* You're not trying to string me along with a siren's Song are you? huh? *shifty eyes* watching you...

Seriously though, less votes on green and Jason and more on T-Bone! woot woot!

[Korlash]

Bleh. The possibilities were all pretty absurd and he ended it by poking at a 1v1. Still no likey.

I don't disagree he was being absurd, but I still don't see him as scum for it. I like T-Bone more...

Silly Korlash, Ten meets no sirens. Plus, the green, singing shark in a dress was only trying to help.

Yeah that's me, silly ol black spot... Ten does meet witches though, that's kinda like sirens if you don't think about it... And if you do think about it then they are pretty much the exact same... except for the gun thing... and the beardiness...

[Korlash]

Just quickly lets go through this. First quote "it's just a hunch, vote T-Bone." Hasn't even stated a real reason for the vote.

2nd quote, apparently my explanation doesn't come from town, but he has not voiced WHY. WHY Korlash is one player not finding another player to be scum, scummy?

Third quote, my statements are pretty clear. Being wrong does not equal being scum, but Korlash doesn't seem to get it.

4th quote, trying to start some he said, she said crap. Why did you feel the need to comment on my vote? See, we could go in circles like that all day. This is one of those questions that scum can ask all day to pretend to scumhunt. Yes Korlash, you're scum.

5th quote...by the way for those keeping count Korlash has not explained why what I did was scummy, but now he's asking for votes on a lynch wagon just for the sake of getting a lynch.

1- Saying my vote is based on a hunch is a promissory note of a reason with an addendum that there is something else at play. Yes, it is an unstated reason but it implies a reason exists that I will be held accountable for at a later time.

2 - I didn't voice why because I was still looking for a response from you. Notice you didn't post between my vote on you and this quote in question. (The second part of this seems like improper Engrish >< I'll respond to it if you can clarify what you mean)

3- Wow, my actual reason/explanation for the vote and your entire sum up of is is "Korlash doesn't get it". Very classy mate, unfortunately this type of thing doesn't work on me. If you can't find something legitimately 'bad' to talk about from a quote of mine, don't try to force one into existence please.

4- Pretending to scumhunt? Mate, You're going to need to take time off from work to try and defend that statement. And nice deflection, instead of answering my question you choose to make up a hypothetical situation in which I'm scum for asking it.

5 - Yes i did, in quote number 2 which you outright ignored. Then I asked you a question you refused to answer so I can't further elaborate on that one until you do.

So lets count, misrepresenting me as not explaining myself when in actuality I was waiting for you to post, then ignoring everything I posted saying I 'don't get it', then deflecting from something I asked and trying to paint it as a made up scum move, and finally outright lying in order to discredit me and insinuate scumminess that doesn't actually exist...

So all you people that mentioned how T-Bone looked like scum but the Green case was better... TA DA! Can we see some more votes now please?

[Korlash]

Just for the record. I think Greenknight's reasoning for finding Zang scummy is wrong. I don't think being wrong is scummy. Therefore being wrong doesn't equal being scum. I commented on Triangle because he voted after Greenknight made a post explaining his actions, and I felt nothing scummy coming from Greenknight. Acomist and CMAR voted well before my posts, so stop trying to misrepresent my attack.

I get wrong =/= scummy, but this only means you are saying wrong = acceptable. For someone who say nothing else in the game worth commenting on, this is a pretty hard thing to accept.

Also, no one missrepresented you, if anything they missunderstood you but that's hardly the same thing. Resorting to trying to finger them for a wrongness is a far reaching over reaction mate. You said 'Triangle was the only one to vote' which is wrong, and someone mentioned that. What you meant was "Triangle was the only one to vote after me" so it's your own fault for being misunderstood.

Lastly, are you claiming your comment against Triangle was meant as an attack?

Tl:DR version. Korlash is scum for, voting me without ever having a stated real reason other than a hunch, then proceeding to try and get more votes for me as if he made a case, to outright begging for votes. This reeks of scum trying to avoid the major wagons because he knows he won't get a lynch on me without a real push (which he won't make).

Avoid the major wagons? Last time I checked I was heavily into a lot of that discussion regardless of where my vote was. That's hardly avoiding them. And begging for votes on you? You've been more or less a brick wall I've been trying to talk to. I've spent most of this game waiting for you to respond to something I asked you or commented towards you. I think it's well within my right to ask the plethora of people who have claimed they also think you 'scummy' to vote in an attempt to get you more interested.

(Also, pssst... The only 'major wagon' you've been 'involved in' was the one where you simply made a fake vote and then ran away... People in glass houses mate... I forget the rest but it ends with me laughing and a tear welling up in your eye... I think it's for the best I forget it, eh?)

I'm not gonna beg for votes. I think people should really look at what Korlash is doing, not just with what I pointed out, but also his stances on the leading wagons. To me, it all looks like fake-scumhunting. Especially when it comes to the Jason wagon.

Actually this could be legitimate. I could see how some people might get the wrong idea when looking at my stuff on Jason, I welcome the chance to go into it more if people feel the need for me to. You might want to cool it with the 'fake scumhunting' though mate, it's not going to end well for you. This post off yours is proof enough my 'scumhunting' bore fruits.

That's good posting, and if it weren't for people thinking bad reasoning = equals scum, this would probably be the leading wagon. So, why are people avoiding this wagon? It seems to have died down on page 4. The take away point from Tierce is that Jason took the opportunity presented by GreyIce to make the situation more confusing, and I agree that isn't protown. I'm not even sure how the Jason discussion became about fencesitting, because the issue I see with Jason is not the fencesitting, but in fact the stance he took on the GreyIce/Zang ordeal. According to #88, Korlash brought up the non-existant issue of fencesitting. Though maybe someone else brought it up before him, I'm not looking that deep. It bothers me that Jason is defending against fencesitting as opposed to what he was doing in regards to GreyIce/Zang that made him scummy.

Excuse me for a moment... *walks outside* *laughter is heard echoing through the halls*

Ok, So you haven't actually looked into the Jason wagon at all. You're simply backing it so you can avoid being on Green. From my point of view, Green is likely town so scum wouldn't want to rush onto that sinking ship, it's too early in the game to speed out a mislynch. Pushing Jason is the far safer path, and you even manage to avoid voting him. Pretty clever, but ultimately damning.

See if you had been paying attention to the Jason wagon you would know it was Teirce that brought up the fence sitting and that at this point, it's pretty much the only thing on him. That is why the wagon died down, because the whole 'case' was simply 'a fence sit on the ICE/Zang' ordeal which isn't that scummy. You would also know the fence sit was about the Zang/ICe ordeal, which you just said was the best thing about his wagon... So you've just gone in a circle saying you don't like the biggest point against him, but you think the best thing against him is the (our words) fence sitting...

Lastly, You use it to throw more misinformation at me. Blaming me for something you call bad (to make me look worse) but ultimately was the same thing you called good (makes you look worse).

This whole thing is fake, Jason is town (90% sure of it) and you're scum (95% sure of it).

Here, answer this "What was Jason's stance that he took on the GreyIce/Zang ordeal, and why is it bad (scummy)?" Now, you're stuck trying to answer that in such a way that what you say isn't equatable to 'he fence sat'... Good luck mate, this is your one chance to prove all this you just posted wasn't fake... and I have no faith you're going to be able to do it.

[Korlash]

1. Sometimes, but also sometimes not. That's only a part of my suspicion of greenknight. He seemed (to me) to really be pushing hard on trying to get a case together on Zang with absolutely nothing to go on other than GreyICE's possible (now, real) joke/RVS exit. Even after GreyICE revealed that it wasn't true, he was still pushing it.

Wait, what? ICE revealed it 'wasn't true' in post 90, Green unvoted in his next post...

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE VOTING GREEN?!?!?!?!?!?!

*hangs head in hands*

Teirce... I need you... Explain to them...

[Korlash]

Next we have a bunch of empty town tells. Note that none of the people he calls town here are under suspicion at this point, so there isn't any actual need to defend them. By calling them town, he can attempt to gain town points with them without losing much maneuvering room. And by not giving any actual reasons for them being town, he leaves maximum flexibility to reverse his stance and attack them later if needed. The disclaimer "She's awesome, although I have some misgivings" regarding Tierce is particularly bad. Especially since Greyice then proceeds to follow her vote on Jason with no other explanation. So presumably if the Jason wagon goes bad, he should have trusted his "misgivings" and it's all Tierce's fault really.

Calling someone town =/= defending them. Calling people town 'might' net you town points from them but it also cements your reads on them early on. It's a risk for scum to do it, not unheard of, but hardly likely to be the case. Your point about Teirce is fine enough. And I caution you on presuming stuff.

maybe

, that would happen, but until it does it's just guesswork. You can voice stuff like that, but you shouldn't put any weight into it without other evidence to support your theory.

Then calls me scum - trying to push another likely wagon without actually being on it. So if I happen to get quicklynched or something, he avoids any blame.

Ehh... no, see T-Bone for what that looks like. Just calling you possible scum doesn't really push your wagon. You can say it sets him up to hop onto your wagon at a future point, but that's about it.

So in summary, this post consists of attempts to score cheap town points, while pushing wagons without actually posting meaningful content or taking any responsibility for anything. Pretty scummy if you ask me.

... no... You should join me on the T-Bone wagon mate... There is someone scummy if you ask me...

[Korlash]

But you STILL haven't made a case Korlash. Why? because it's much easier to make up shit later. Reminds me of something DGB (I think) has in her sig, "it takes a second to claim a role but much more time to fabricate one" (or something like that). Same philosophy applies here. But I'm not going to waste too much more time with this. I want people to read you and your pretend scumhunting for themselves. "Promising" to have a case is NOT good enough for town. But it's pretty great for scum.

Dude, don't throw the goddess' name at me... (it's paraphrasing takes seconds, fabricating takes an eternity btw... geeze...)

I did 'make a case' (provided explanations/reasons were my words for it but it's the same vernacular) I specifically told you you ignored them. Which you just did again. You need the noose

now

...

I gave you a full on response to your vote and you ignore that entirely. You do know my response to your vote counts as a case all on it's own right? I outlined four separate scummy things you did...

[Korlash]

Why do I not see any T-Bone votes on this page? Come on people, *taps watch* I don't have a lot of time here...

I literally don't... O.O

[Korlash]

Why? Why would I have a specific person in mind? I was trying to show greenknight that in any situation, it is not unreasonable to vote. The specific person should not matter at all.

You used the word "someone" in reference to the situation between you and ICE. So you either meant "If it was someone else who investigated me" or "If it was someone else ICE investigated". I want to know which one.

I'm not asking who the 'someone' is, I'm asking who the 'someone' replaces in the equation: ICE investigated Zang

A simple question you've turned into a three page discussion.

The whole scum motivation for fence sitting is to avoid taking a stance on something so that they can not be held responsible for it later. The fact that he took a position on it, even if it is not a strong one, ruins the whole scum motivation for it. That's why to me it looks to me more like town exploring the possibilities than scum fence sitting.

Fence sitting is not as simple as 'not taking a stand' on something. It's playing both sides. And while I see no scum motivation in what Jason did, I certainly see the possibility for it to exist.

How is your opinion on Jason not fencesitting according to you? In that post alone, you say that he is fencesitting, then you say that he could be just exploring the possibilities, but then you say that he isn't and then you say that he isn't scum.

From an outside perspective, it is. The difference is everything I say lines up on the same side of the fence regardless of how you string it along. I've never called him scum for his fence sitting nor implied fence sitting is a pure scum intent. I assume your mention of 'exploring possibilities' is suppose to imply that it's contradicting for me to say that in conjunction to him fence sitting because they somehow don't go together, which is false as I said him 'exploring possibilities' would 'explain' the fence sit, not 'excuse' it in anyway.

How can you be held accountable for reasoning that you have not stated? Why not just post the reasoning with your vote?

I hate using such a crap post as an example but T-Bones accusation of me having no reason would be someone holding me accountable for it, wouldn't you say? I said I was voting on a hunch, at some point someone would ask me 'what hunch' and I would be held accountable for what answer I gave at that time. I didn't post the reason because I felt the vote was better without it at the time.

Also, why is this the only real thing in the T-Bone/Korlash debacle you felt the need to comment on? Didn't you claim the 'case' on him was good? Here it gets even better and you ignore it for the most part.

[Korlash]

please show me eexactly where I am fence sitting, please.. don't like how Korlash says Zangs post Irks him but doesnt go into any more details.

You give a reason ICE could be telling the truth, then say you believe he is lying, and then submit a proposal that hinges on him telling the truth. That is playing both sides, cementing a stand on side A while pushing side B.

When you take a stand on Side A and then continue to play over in Side B, that is tantamount to taking no side at all. The stance on Side A is as good as face value for when Side B blows up. The fact someone says "Fence sit" and you go "no no no, look I took a stance here... let me show you..." kinda proves my fucking point.

Luckily for you, the situation in question is a claimed guilty which means there HAS to be some playing in the other field which makes this fence sit very minor. Your reaction to it obviously makes it worse, but I still think it's minor compared to other things (and that other elements in this game also suggest you are town...)

And I did go into details mate, I specifically asked him a question about it which he has so far failed to answer.

town posting... I think if TBone was scum he would not have unvoted and continued to challange and make a thing of it... he is letting it go so I think town. Scum would have pushed.

False. A townie would not give up the ONLY THING IN THE FUCKING GAME he felt was worth commenting on. You've also assumed green is town here I take it? I agree with you, of course, but you do see the scum motivation in not pushing a mislynch right?

[Korlash]

Green actually seems to have sound reasoning from his perspective for his vote on Zang. Even if I do disagree that overreacting would be protown. But speculating on how he should have reacted is WIFOM. Unvote

T-Bone unvotes green for essentially the same reason I do.

Yeah... Was your wording here intentional, or is it just a coincidence that what you've done here gives T-Bone something to wedge into my case against him? (obviously rhetorical mate)

What is your stance on T-Bone? You seem to like that he thinks the same way that you do, but that's doesn't say a lot to me.

What is specifically wrong with Zang's 83?

[Korlash]

So, the fact I continued to push GrayICE on the matter, is me fence sitting, Korlash?

First off, don't tell ICE to shut up and then make a fucking stupid post like this.

Second off, no. You have done nothing to contradict voting ICE(in any sense) and thus there is no fence sitting.

Third off, jokingly shrugging off a suspicious act before anyone even mentions it (or, maliciously joking about an attack someone has made against you in an attempt to discredit said attack) is a hell of a lot more scummy than your less than interesting fence sitting.

HEY KORLASH

JASON WANTS TO DIE

LETS MAKE IT HAPPEN

Tempting as it is with him rapidly losing all the town points i gave him, he still ranks far lower than T-Bone.

Hey GrayICE shut the fuck up! Do something productive and back up your shit.

Yeah when you start a post of with "I'm only up to so and so page so bare with me" you really shouldn't be doing this type of shit mate. It's pathetically dull. Tell me when you've finished reading the game and give me an opinion of T-Bone (and Zang while you're at it) thanks.

[Korlash]

T-Bone - Town his 127 is great.

His 127 is complete crap. Misrep, lies, deflection, and complete ignorance of my posts. How the hell do you justify it as 'good'?

[Korlash]

if it helps I see his fight with you as town / town...

That's a poor way to phrase it. You see a fight between two other people as town/town, you see a fight between yourself and someone else as simply them being town...

And again, which part of T-Bone's post was 'great'? The fabricated case on me, or the part where he poorly pushes your wagon?

[Korlash]

Hey, Korlash... these two basically quotes from you heavily contradiction themselves..

one post you say I am fence sitting or something like it

then say in next there is no fence sitting

Which is it, mate>?

Ah, underhanded play. As a general term I don't immediately call such a thing 'scum motivated' but given the specific situation you cause here I find it exceedingly so.

The first quote is in regards to your fence sitting regarding the 'ICE claim" and the result given by that. The second quote involves the fake Fence sit possibility that you created regarding you voting ICE. The two are mutually exclusive entities and thus have no relation to each other. In layman's terms, there exists discussions on two separate 'fence sitting' issues and you are trying to suggest they contradict each other simply because they are not both a 'yes'.

If your vote on ICE had mentioned in any way his 'claim' or him 'lying' there would exist some correlation between the two instances, but that link doesn't even exist. There is literally ZERO contradiction here because the two quotes are about two DIFFERENCE 'instances' of fence sitting. (Technically, the second one is about a non-instance but you get my point.)

So your 162 post has you creating a new separate discussion about a new possible fence sitting, and your post 181 is you using that new fence sit to pretend there is a contradiction. Nice... I need to catch up, but at this point I'd be willing to switch my vote to you simply because you seem determined to do as many scummy things as you possibly can. (And I'm rapidly running out of time so shit needs to happen)

[Korlash]

Sorry, got distracted by my package arriving... The last piece of my collection... The master's screwdriver, dun dun dun... ;_; but it's defective... Sigh... The other two screwdrivers work... I wanted to make people age... oh well, still looks cool and I can make the sound effects myself *zap zap* kurazy...

...

Sorry, not at all joking by the way... thought it would be relevant to mention it seeing as how I'm here and all....

anyway, back to the game...

Although I do find T-Bone scummy, I actually disagree with this particular point on him. I feel like this is reading too much into his statement because reading over what he said, it looks to me like the "If I were scum" clause was more or less implied since T-Bone's quote was all about how scum would react to a given situation.

The 'if I was scum' is implied because Green said it and T-Bone was simply adding onto what Green had said, thus he gets the credit of carrying such implication over with him. However, major props to Kort for this find because it is the type of thing that 'could' be a scum slip. While, in theory, he is saved by the fact Green said it first, since it's an 'implication' T-Bones response to this is going to be key in determining if that implication actually exists.

=\

Seriously Triangle, this is one of those times you majorly fucked up stepping in to respond to something directed at another player before they had a chance to respond to it first. *rubs temples* I... can sorta understand... It wasn't in the phrase of a question so it's hard to tell sometimes when it's majorly important not to intervene on another's behalf... But this could seriously have yielded something... and now T-Bone gets a free out...

So... What do you find scummy about T-Bone exactly? The only thing you've said about him is "you think him scum", "You feel uneasy", and now... what (intentional or not) amounts to defending him from an attack, pure and simply. Sorry, just noticed you also mentioned him 'misrepping me'.. but you say 'borderline' which... it clearly isn't...

[Korlash]

Korlash, you're reading way too much into T-bone's #82. His explanation that he voted to pressure me for an explanation and unvoted when he didn't find my response scummy makes sense to me at face value. And since he gets my explanation, commenting on triangle's immediately preceding #81 which didn't get it is natural enough. There's no insinuation of triangle being scum there (it's a bit odd that he refers to it as an attack later as it doesn't really look like one.)

Dude, don't tell me I'm 'reading into something' too much, and then end by saying something I was actually talking about (or trying to get T-Bone to talk about) is something worth looking into. It's whack posting that makes no sense and suggests you have no idea what you're talking about.

1) The explanation makes sense to you 'at face value'? Don't tell me I'm reading too deep into it when you just admit you barely looked at it at all. You not looking into it deeper, is actually MORE reason for me to do it since you aren't 'pulling your weight'. (And this is just an 'illustrated example'. I do not mean to accuse you of anything nor imply anything regarding you 'not working', although technically... It's kinda spot on...) And you can't say I'm looking 'too deep' into soemthing if you haven't looked deep into it to begin with. That is literally accusing me of something you have no way of knowing anything about.

2) You seem to be ignoring a major problem or two I've mentioned regarding his unvote, so... That part about me saying you don't seem to know what you're talking about seems to be holding true. (Primarily the fact T-Bone had recently said his stuff on you was the only thing he saw worth mentioning. this factors into why his unvote was unacceptable and is proof enough why you letting things slide 'at face value' is poor play. Not intended as an insult, constructive criticism.)

3)'Commenting' on Triangle might be natural, the 'comment' in question was not. If and when I can get more out of T-Bone in the discussion he's stalling on/ ignoring... I'll be able to go into it more. As it stands... I'm waiting on him.

At #127 he decides you're scummy for continuing to attack him over #82. In his point 2 against you there, he asks you why you think unvoting me was scummy. You haven't further explained this. You should.

He decides I'm scummy for continuing to attack him? Isn't that the definition of OMGUS? You should work on your phrasing here mate and try again.

I have further explained this, in post 101. T-Bone ignored this post when he accused me of this, I informed him he ignored this, and now you've both ignored that post and ignored me telling him he ignored it. (CONFUCKINGFUSING)

A few things bothered me about your vote/unvote. For starters, you say Green's thing was the only thing that stood out to you in this early phase, yet you ran away from the vote after one single post. Not only that, but you 180 and seem to chastise the wagon you were just on. And on top of that, you seem to be in turn defending Greenknight himself. So the only thing that you thought worth commenting on in the early phase, you completely 180 on immediately... and you don't even have a strong belief in what green said because you say you disagree with him.

Regardless of what you think of my explanations, and regardless of if I ever get to go into more details (or from your perspective if I even have more details to go into), the fact is I not only explained this a LONG time ago, but I did so rather quickly after my vote. Please try not to falsely accuse me of the same things I just said someone else falsely accused me of, thanks.

[Korlash]

I obviously wouldn't have voted for myself if GreyICE was replaced with someone else.

So I'm taking this as you saying the "someone" was in reference to you. You've had too many opportunities to correct me if I'm wrong, so I'm running with this. Sadly, I'll have to backtrack a long fucking way to pick up where I left off so bare with me.

The definition of fence sitting does not matter. My point is still valid.

... No... I would love to agree with you and end it here, but I can't because your point isn't valid. You say taking a stance ruins scum motivation, and it doesn't. It increases it. Taking a stance and then pushing the opposite allows you to let the opposite thing happen (let's pretend it's a mislynch) and yet remain safe from the falloutt (because your 'stance' was on the other side). Scum have just pushed a mislynch, yet get a free pass because they laid down a 'fake' stance. The only way to attack them for it at this point? Argue 'fence sit", and looky at that, the 'fake stance' doubles as a defense to that attack. So there is HUGE scum motivation to do this.

As it stands, given the situation, there was also 'huge' town motivation to do it. Which is why I called the fence sit such a small point at the time. However, given Jason's recent stuff, he no longer gets any town cred for it (especially due to his immediate rush to defend himself of the fence sit with the 'stance').

So again, while I would love to say "Yeah I agree with you because that was my original read of it too"... I no longer feel that way and you are wrong so... continue the argument we shall... god... this... game...

For me at least, the term fencesitting is usually used when you think that person is scum.

Then I shall respect your opinion and you should in turn respect mine. I assume by your lack of continuing this, this is what you've done and we can let this portion rest? I don't believe I have further comment if you don't.

How can a vote be better without explaination? I see absolutely no town motivation for thinking this.

And... I won't answer this now as it would defeat the purpose. If you cannot accept this then fine, It will have to do. I will only say that I've been playing this game for a long freaking time, and the title 'krap logick' isn't only about my logic being poor. It's about me being able to think outside the box and occasionally be spectacular at it.

I can tell you I have motivation for it and that motivation was in the best interest of the town. I can tell you that my reasons for ding it have already appeared to bare fruit, so to speak. And I can tell you that I believe I still have reasons not to go into it. As I said, you can either accept this or not... nothing I can or will do about it at this time.

I had nothing else to comment on. I do see great points on both sides of the argument though.

Perfect, go into that then. What great points and why?

How have I failed to answer it? I have specifically stated that I did not have a person in mind.

And asking me a question does not explain how it irks you. Which you never did explain.

And that answer, from my perspective, is impossible. Even in the event it IS the truth, that answer makes it impossible for me to go into further details as the answer itself is impossible. (or improbable, this hypothetical suggests it is not in fact impossible.)

I didn't explain (yet) because I needed you to answer first. Hence, why I asked you a question. Now that I have your answer, from the top of the page, I'll go into it. but I'm fairly certain your response will be to say that isn't your answer and try to use this 'improbably answer' as a way to wiggle out of it.

I am laughing at the irony here... Will probably go into this when I backtrack to the original point and finally explain the 'irksomeness' of your post...

Is this the stance that you always take towards cases against you or is it just because you previously thought that T-bone was scum?

I only take the stance that a case is 'fabricated' when I prove it to be. I showed how his case was misrep, ignoring of facts, outright lying, and deflection. That proves it to be fabrication and so far he, and no one else, has made ANY meaningful responses to these accusations by me. So, as of this point, my suggesting that his case is fabricated has yet to be even partially suggested as wrong. The fact the case was 'on me' and the fact I felt 'T-Bone was scum' only comes into play as reasons why I analyzed his post, they do not factor as reasons I reached the conclusion.

*swish*

You need to step up your game mate.

[Korlash]

greenknight is freaking out about GreyICE. Seems like he wanted to railroad Zang and use GreyICE's "claim" as an excuse. Then the rug was pulled out from under him. :sadtrombone:

"Railroad" him? That's a lazy push. Hell you've said virtually null on the Green wagon... And you're still rocking your random stage vote... You asked him a question back in post 81, did you ever follow up on it? Have you contributed anything meaningful to the green wagon?

Korlash (in general):

Concision is a virtue.

Never been my strong suit. I've tried, honest. Can't do it.

This green knight wagon
Is fucking crap
Get off him, town

This is the smartest fucking post of the game so far...

Agreed. Jason and green are scum. We can sort out who gets the rope in the next two weeks.

You still butthurt over the miller thing? It gives me a frisson of pleasure to think of that now.

Why is Green scum? Exactly? Concisely? Specifically?

[Korlash]

Why on earth is Korlash being all IC-mode? That said, he appreciates DGB, and I do love a man who can enjoy a woman for what she is even if she has a time head.

DGB and me are soul mates... *drifts off into memories* good times...

I know I've drifted off into a bit of... yeah IC mode is a good description. But I have a reason... which I've already hinted at... More on that later...

What is your opinion of T-Bone?

[Korlash]

But I maded those walls especially for you. ;_;

Seriously though, when did 200 word count become walls? Boy you lot these days sure lead such sheltered lives. If four posts in a row take up a combined total of 12 inches of screen length between them it's apparently a battle o' walls that no one can be buggarded to read....

Leave it to the internet to define skilled at a game of posting information being able to have the least amount of information in your posts... :\

I have an impending deadline elsewhere--will get back to you on T-Bone, Korlash, that was a general catch-up and I need ISOs before going further.

... Okay... Holding you to this....

[Korlash]

But like 90% he's town and I'm not touching him day 1

That's what she sa- oh... I made myself sad... ;_;

[Korlash]

At this point the game had only just left RVS; there really isn't a lot that stands out. He sees my post as potentially suspicious, pressure votes me to get an explanation, and unvotes because he is satisfied with the explanation. I don't see why, if he is town, he'd want to leave his vote on me. He doesn't have any other leads, so he unvotes. Now arguably, it's lazy to unvote instead of moving immediately to someone else, but I don't think that is a scum tell because town often uses unvote to say "I don't suspect X anymore."

No, I'd say you are missing the main fucking reason his unvote is so scummy but it appears, technically, you aren't. You don't get that you aren't though, so... stop it.

Also, since you believe I am town, why do you think that T-bone would feel the need to hop off my wagon immediately as scum? To avoid being on a potential mislynch wagon? There's no reason to suppose he would be singled out amongst everyone else who voted for me. To gain townpoints with me? Maybe, but I hardly look like the most useful player to gain townpoints with when half the town is calling my reasoning bad or scummy at the time! On the other hand, it would be easy for scum to just sit on the wagon and let triangle and others continue to attack me.

Being singled out doesn't mean shit. Three days from now, it's more beneficial for a scum to have hopped off an early mislynch wagon then stayed on it. You are prime mislynch stock. Not only is your wagon fast forming/growing but you seem incapable of reaching anyone voting for you. Gain townpoints with you? Why does everyone think everything people do could be about them. If you were mislynched relatively without incident, T-Bone could be looking at, in theory, town points from everyone for hopping off like he did.

And it's not easy for scum to just sit on the wagon. It's very freaking difficult. If a scum just sits on a wagon day one, come day 3, day 4, day 5... they are going to fucking die for it. I have other ideas as to why he would hop off the wagon as he does as scum but they are all theories and thus irrelevant. I'm more focused on stuff I know is really going on, like how his unvote did not come from town and his actions afterwards do not suggest town either.

So I believe this unvote to be more likely to be coming from town reasoning than scum.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not.

I agree that T-bone should explain his stance on triangle.

Damn right he should.

[Korlash]

Wait... Since when does being on a day 1 mislynch wagon make anyone a guaranteed lynch later?

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, but I think it would be best to hold off on further discussion there until T-bone speaks for himself.

When scum are on a mislynch and "JUST SITTING THERE" as you said, come later in the game that will come back to haunt them. Nothing is a 'guaranteed' anything, but I'd bet on my theory over yours being closer to accurate.

[Korlash]

Hey all, sorry I've been awol. Preparing for my trip and focusing in other game.

Ok so long story short... I'm going V/la for a family reunion that will last nearly two weeks and I plan on not being online for any of it... so... Odds are I won't be with you guys very much longer.

I want to make sure to get this posted while I'm here:

Scum:
T-Bone (Not only very obviously scum, but the overall best lynch for our day one)
Zang (His reactions towards the 't-bone case', the irksome post and his reaction to it, his push of green)
Jason (His reaction actually suggesting the 'fence sit' was scum motivated, Zang connections)

Maybe scum:
Triangle (T-Bone connections, push on green while still keeping t-bone as potential possibility.)

Intentional Null: (Has done something that gives me a 'null' reading)
Crymeariver
Banna (Iecerint)
Kortul

Unintentional Null: (Has done nothing to give me a read, and thus defaults to null)
Acosmist
Starbuck

Town:
ICE (of the grey variety)
Teirce
Greenknight

If I have time I'll do more but I'm dead tired, have things to pack, and other things coming up... so... We'll see... This is where I stand right now... I can only say that at this juncture our best move is to lynch T-Bone. Highest chance of flipping scum, huge links all over the place for increased information, and well... it would make me happy, which is just swell...

[Korlash]

Zang is confirmed town (unless that was a gambit, too), shenanigans notwithstanding.

Explain, what did I miss? seriously? Now I feel dumb...

Also, given your read on Green and how you're handling that elsewhere, why are you null on Starbuck? O.o

Pushing of green isn't in and of itself a scum trait, he wouldn't be town if only scum pushed him. It's doing that in conjunction with other things. Thus, no other things, star is simply null.

Posts like that is why we should lynch Korlash.

And the ones where you ignore everything I brought up against you and all the explanations I ask of you... those are reasons we should lynch you.

[Korlash]

You're not talking about ICE's post 90 are you Banna? His 242 suggests he wasn't claiming to have information suggesting Zang is town, i.e. daycop with innocent, otherwise zang would be more than just 'prob town'.

[Korlash]

How is my reaction to his case scummy? You have still failed to explain how that post is scummy.

You seem to be keeping him as a viable 'suspect' apparently seeming to think the case some merit, yet you overall seem to ignore him.

the post was 'irk'some and only became scummy as you strung me along failing to answer the simplest of questions. The problem I had is that you have a problem with ICE as a player, yet would still vote with him if he had claimed to have targeted someone other than you. If you truly have a problem with ICE as a player then you should 'think' he is lying regardless of who he claims to have target seeing as how early and unlikely the claim is.

This was a minor bothersome point that should have been easily cleared up when I first asked yet you choose to skirt answering my question. So now a minor bothersome point has been made scummy due to your reaction to it.

[Korlash]

Hi ya'll, I'm back, but not really. I'm in the airport. This game is my number two so you have to wait until I get home, ha ha ha! But no seirously, Knows I love ya!

To make this post relevant, I just bought Shada... Anyone else see that? I'm not really into old school Doctor but I am seriously liking this book so far... If only I could read... ;_;

[Korlash]

CMAR and Korlash are back from vacation today, so I'm interested in seeing what they have to say with a new week of developments. I asked for it probably 10 pages back, but I'd appreciate your read on Acomist, Korlash.

Ironically... I think he's fucking scum... >.> Stop voting him so it's not as weird to me...

This is my first theme game, so i'd like to ask those with more experience with themes - is bread-crumbing since the beginning with claiming VT later a normal practice in themed games?

Uh... I wouldn't call it normal per say, but when it comes to theme games you have both a role and a character. In most games you breadcrumb your role, because that is all you have, in a theme game though you have both, so yeah. I know people will breadcrumb their character even if they are vanilla.

However, realize that in a theme game scum likely have safeclaims for characters, so breadcrumbing them only to claim vanilla doesn't say 'a lot'... it's just something some people do.

I'm River Song, pulled from the Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead episodes. These are some of my crumbs:

Yeah... You know you don't have to breadcrumb like every third post right? I was starting to have fun breadcrumbing who you were... >.>

Okay... so where I stand on Teirce... I dislike that this wagon was single handedly built from nothing by ICE over like... 4 pages. It started with nothing and has gained minor support on nothing with, I believe hopes, that the deadline would push it further. This is a crap wagon at this time.

I don't like Acomist right now, but not enough to push his lynch, barely enough to want to pressure him. Since I don't appear to have time I have to shelve him.

I also have pangs from Starbuck and a small pang from Kortul but neither of them are in lynch rang so I have to keep them shelved for now as well.

This leaves me with my prior three, T-Bone, Zangt, and Jason... none of whom have done anything to alleviate my suspicions. So... yeah...

Unvote:, Vote: Jason

[Korlash]

Korlash- Why am I scum?

Honestly I don't know why you are scum. Maybe it's your bastardized sense of morality. Or a tragic event in your past that lead to such behavior today. Perhaps you believe you have no perpose and adopt the roles handed to you by others. I think the only person who can answer why you are scum is you yourself.

It's Doctor Who. I think the only game in which I'd have more fun breadcrumbing everywhere and then some would be a Sandman game. >.>

Eh, never been a fan of DC... But to each their own...

[Korlash]

Korlash- you know what I mean. Why do you think that I'm scum?

We've already covered it way back when and I don't feel the need to immediately reacquaint myself with this games past. But you add in my past suspicions with the fact you are not currently voting anyone even with the pressing deadline plus the fact I cannot remember the last person you DID vote, and your comments about how you have some people you would vote for but wont because they haven't done anything just sounds whack.

You say you might vote for Teirce and even show to have some understanding of a case on her what with adding your own bit about her FoS being weak, but you stick to simply 'asking for a case on her' without taking ANY pro-active action in either finding the case, or making your own conclusion. This close to deadline with NO ONE you're willing to vote for, to say "you would vote for Teirce" but not actually look/find a reason to does not sound like a town action. It looks like you are simply idling there waiting for the rest of us to make a decision and the day to end.

[Korlash]

Did Tierce notice that Jason breadcrumbed his role? If breadcrumbing a role is supposed to be a town tell, why is her vote on Jason? If it is not a town tell, why would she do it?

Did he? show me where. Thanks...

[Korlash]

No mine! (This post loses it relevance in 5...4...3..)

[Korlash]

Did he himself point out that crumb or did you have to look for it after he claimed?

[Korlash]

well that changes some things then... *scribbles on paper* Not enough to unvote though... But I do feel a fifth element quote coming on...

[Korlash]

No we didn't. You said why you thought I was scum, went on V/LA and then I responded to your case. Now, you come back, ignore my responce and continue to call me scum. That is scummy.

And waiting until I go V/la to respond to it isn't scummy? Certainly not responding to your comments wouldn't be something I'm proud of, but don't try and call that action scummy if you are saying you didn't make those responses until after I left mate. I might not feel the need to respond to them at the moment, but that's hardly ignoring something I wasn't here for.

If memory serves you made those responses right before I left and I never had time nor the notion to respond to them. Perhaps that is slight ignoration, but I don't care. Right now I'm merely calling you scum, not pushing you as it. Perhaps you should care less about why I think you are scum right now and focus more on who YOU think is scum. This whole self preservation attitude preceding deadline is never a good sign.

So it's scummy that I don't vote somebody because of the deadline and it's also scummy that I consider voting somebody because of deadline?

This reasoning is contradictory.

No it isn't, you've either taken me out of context or as misrepresenting my comments. Not voting before deadline (and preceding that quite a ways as well) is not normally seen as a town move. Our only power during the day is a vote and it tends to be used quite readily by most. Now that is not to say that town don't do this, I have seen many town not use their votes, but this creates a style of play.

IF, your town style of play is to not use your vote even with the impending deadline, than it stands to reason that your play would reflect this in some way. AS it stands, it doesn't. You verbally say you are willing to vote Teirce and even pose towards her what appears to be a fragmented attack aimed at her but you constantly are asking 'what the case on her is' and using that as a reason not to vote. This implies to me that you are not the type of person who doesn't readily use their vote, but are instead actively looking for a reason NOT to use your vote.

Are you admitting then that you said you would vote for people 'because of the deadline'? I don't believe that was what I said so I'd like to know if that is really how you felt when you said it.

Obviously I know some things about the Tierce case that I have picked up by myself. But GreyICE is calling him obvious scum everytime after he posts and I would like to know how he came to that conclusion.

Then why didn't you ask him directly? If memory serves, I thought you posted that question to the thread not to a specific person. Why have you not gone back three pages and read up the Teirce case? With time running out, if you truly cared, it seems like a risk to simply ask... especially when the first time you asked you didn't get a response.

First you say that I'm not willing to vote for anybody and then you say that I am willing to vote for Teirce.

Again, This reasoning is contradictory.

This is just stupid, you see what you think looks like a contradiction and instead of actually reading it you choose to use it as an attack. You can add 'pointlessly choosing to attack the people attacking you instead of reading what they post' to reasons I think you are scum now.

YOU say there is no one you're willing to vote as evidenced by your comment earlier about it AND the fact you are not voting anyone, and YOU say you 'might be willing to vote Teirce' but hide behind an ignorance surrounding her case. There is no contradiction because YOU said all of it, not me.

A townie who isn't voting someone but sees someone they MIGHT be willing to vote for should take an active approach in finding reason to either remain voteless or to in fact vote them. YOU choose to sit there and wait to be told what to do. That is stalling scum who wants other people to do the work for him. You are not scum hunting, you have focused more on defending yourself than finding scum these last few posts, and above all you show no interest in actually understanding what is perhaps the most important thing a townie should know right now, the main lynch wagons.

[Korlash]

I'll probably vote for Tierce but

I am trying to delay my vote until somebody gives me a case on him

. I don't really see any town motivation in his posts and I don't like his interaction with triangle but that doesn't make him scum. I also don't like how he says that he will refuse to do a fullclaim but I do think that is scummy.

Town don't let other people make their cases for them. I'm beginning to see a point where I can just rest my case and let you hang yourself.

did you ever ask her to full claim? Have you commented on her interaction with triangle before? Have you actually done any of your own discussion involving Teirce at all? (Aside from the fos thing)

For the (n+1)th time, I'm female.

damn straight you are. Rawl...

And if we are talking about reads - Korlash, if your strongest scum reads are based on tells, can you share those tells? Nobody can be sure to live through the night (that's why i try to explain my reads before the night).

I wont give my reads immediately before deadline 'just for the hell of it'. It would take me an hour to discuss with you the benefits vs. the risks of posting them but I'd rather not. The fact is the scum have to CHOOSE who to nightkill. I would rather risk my input being silenced over helping them make that choice anyday.

I will say that as far as 'tells' go, it's a shitty thing to say because a 'tell' is not a good definition for anything. I think scum would do thing A, does that make thing A a tell? *shrugs* I think the people I have called scum are scum for things they have done, I choose to leave it at that for now. Given Zang's recent stuff though, I may find time to delve into my read on him before deadline passes though.

[Korlash]

What are you talking about? On the same day, I posted 3 hours after you called me scum and 1 hour after your last post. How is that waiting to respond until you are V/LA?

I was trying to make a point, not accuse you of something. Apparently, that wasn't clear... >.> My bad I suppose...

How is it self preservation? You're not even voting me. I just hate it when terrible cases are made against me. And how does deadline even matter?

Self preservation is that you care more about 'finding out' why I think you are scum than you do about hunting for scum. Whenever a majority of your posts seem to be revolving around defense instead of scum hunting, you thusly appear to be in a self preservation mode.

I never made a case nor implied I had any intent of making one yet you jump to this conclusion? you aren't feeling guilty are you?

Deadline matters because you are spending your time waiting for someone to tell you their case while you focus on defense instead of working on making your own case. The whole "i'll be here before deadline, so don't worry' excuse only works when you spend that time MAKING A CASE so your decision is as accurate as possible.

How could that be the case when he voted her the page before that even happened?

So you admit his vote/reasons make no sense... and you vote with him? Sweet...

How am I just sitting here?

Your posts include "someone tell me the case of the person I should be voting" and "/defend myself against non attacks". You have done virtually nothing to find scum or make your own case/decision. That is just sitting there two weeks from deadline, two days from it is unacceptable. If you didn't want to vote, fine. But you still need to show that you're TRYING to figure out who to vote and you had and still have barely done anything of the sort.

1. Why would I want a full claim when she's not at L-1? I think it's scummy that she is saying that she will refuse to claim when at L-1.
2. Her interaction with triangle is the FoS thing.
3. As you just stated in the same sentence but somehow ignore now, I also think that him refusing to claim is scummy.

1. Well seeing as how you're voting her and want her lynched, I don't see why L-x would make any difference. Do you not want her lynched? If you do, why the fuck wouldn't you want her to claim asap to give us the most time before deadline to check into it?
2. Did you ever continue to follow through with the FoS thing after the 2nd post of yours?
3. So the answer is no... You spent more posts asking for a case on Teirce than you did trying to make your own. Got it.

And he hates M:tG walls, he's obvtown.

NO NO NO NO NO! That makes him fucking scum. Walls are awesome! <3 defender + mill wins everything!

[Korlash]

I also am of the belief that if you are going to claim then you claim everything about your role or you don't claim at all. Now, I'm not all the way caught up on Doctor Who, but I know who River is. I think she could easily be a cover and I'm not believing her one bit.

I would caution you on this. In theme games, remember you are given more to claim than in normal bland games. There is always possible reason to claim one and not the other so make sure to think it through in each situation you come across.

Anyway, River could easily be a safeclaim. I honestly can't tell if the 'constant' crumbing of it makes it more likely a safeclaim or less. I'm honestly leaning more towards it making it more likely a safeclaim but I have no frame of reference.

Have you considered the fact she claimed early without any real provocation? Has that factored into your results at all?

This is terrible reasoning. Please explain to me how that can be proven.

Just saw this in Teirce's post. What the fuck is your problem? Explain to me how you can prove her actions don't have town motivation? You can't PROVE either, it's fucking impossible because hypothetical can be made to suggest both.

What the fuck is this, your vote is so shit...

[Korlash]

Wait, I missed it. Who hates M:tG?

Acosmit... *shakes head* It's sad to see such uncalled for hatred...

No, it's not scummy. I'm refusing to fullclaim because at this stage I would really, really rather not fullclaim. It brings no benefit for the town if I out my role now, and a lot of benefit to scum. My role name can be confirmed via any name/flavor cop, so there is interest in doing a partial claim and say I have a PR because it would be really stupid to get lynched over a scummy, survivalistic, claimed VT on D1, if I say so myself.

Answer me this darling, Does it bring less benefit to town to lynch you today than it would for you to claim? If you were threatened with the lynch RIGHT NOW, would it not be more beneficial for you to claim?

So... what exactly is there for me to address here?

Considering it was directed at me... >.>

[Korlash]

Of course it has, she was at what L-4? She had no need to claim and to reveal her character and then insist that she is a PR seems like a desperate scum move.

Do you know when the first time was that she insinuated she was a PR? Was it after claiming to be River, the same time, or before it? I somehow missed it on my read through and only learned of it when someone else said she had done it...

I can also tell you I've seen her claim prematurely before... Not sure what that means but...

[Korlash]

Next you're going to tell me you also like blue decks. Why you break my heart so, Korlash.

Well I am called Korlash... So you know I like me some black... My main is a B/U/W deck centered around Glimpse and Mind Funeral. I <3s it so much....

Fallacy. Would be a lot more beneficial for town for me NOT to claim and jason to be lynched. Forcing me to claim renders my role all but worthless and I really wish GreyICE was here because I'm pretty sure he'd guess what I'm talking about. (Please go check MLP, Grey.)

*shakes head* It is not a Fallacy. I gave you a perfectly possible situation in which Jason's lynch was not a choice. I am not asking you to claim, just to tell me yes or no. Is it more beneficial to lynch you than it is for you to claim? What is MLP's full name?

It was after.

I don't understand how that is a PR claim...

@ Teirce, by "My role is evident" did you mean that you were River or that you had a PR?

[Korlash]

My preferred deck is Artifact, but it will usually have a bit of blue.

MEMNARCH!!!!!! My first ever deck ever... ;_; How I misses you....

Starbuck gets to be town forever now!

[Korlash]

Damn tigers! I was hoping to get to look at that game... Oh well...

When they become useful, my crumbs will be there and they'll be evident.

When they become useful? You do know how much that makes it all sound fake right?

[Korlash]

Except I think that jason is town and you could still be scum trying to avoid being lynched.

This seems like you are implying the Jason wagon is being used to help her avoid the lynch... But the Jason wagon was started long before her wagon came about so that's impossible.

I think I alread made a case against Tierce.

Before you voted her? My comments here are about your actions when this discussion first started, so they predate your vote on Teirce.

NO. Where do you get this? the whole reason why I was asking was because there are reasons but I just don't know what they are. I never once claimed that there was no reasons.

How do you know there are reason? And your comments about that post of his suggested to me you saw it the same way I did, not making sense.

No. The only thing that I've done that can be misconstrued to that is asking what the case on him is and the reasons for why I did this, I have repeated but you still ignore.

Considering I'm trying to remember what your reasons for it are and I keep coming up blank, if you truly have told me then it seems I have ignored them. You wanted to find out ICe's reasoning for his vote? Right? So in other words, in your opinion he has no reasons... Yet you just said you know he has some (but not sure what they are) and you're voting WITH him... Even though he has not told you his reasons.

Obviously, I can't prove it. It is my opinion that her posts don't have any town motivation. She's using that as her defense.

Okay, for the first time I'll give you a chance to prove yourself to me. Where did she use this as a defense 'BEFORE YOU ATTACKED HER FOR IT'. Are you saying she physically used "My posts are town motivated" as a defense somewhere in the thread to another attack?

To save time, if you are saying "she used this as a defense once I attacked her" then that's shit...

[Korlash]

So you've never seen crumbs that are only useful after some event?
I can't continue dancing around this--I've said all I care about the subject. Figure it out.

Crumbs are only useful to back up a claim. End of story. They have no use outside of that, they have no 'time frame' that dictates their usefulness, they do not 'become' useful in any way shape or form.

They are a static device used to serve one purpose, back up your claim. The only crumbs that 'become useful' are those added by scum early on to back up potential future claims. Fake doc/cop/etc crumbs sown in by scum so that if they ever need to fakeclaim they can back it up. Those BECOME useful because they are made without a claim to back up and thus BECOME useful once a fakeclaim is invented FOR THEM to back up.

[Korlash]

*shakes head* Now we've taken the discussion past it's relevance here. Granted I had forgotten about result crumbs so kudos for proving me incorrect.

The point is, if you use this argument you just brought up, you would be saying your crumbs will become useful... when you die... Which would only further the odds you are lynched today.

[Korlash]

EXTERMINATE!

I'll need to read up on Teirce for links when I get home but my inner scummer says to look at ICE since he more or less started and was the main force behind the push on her. (I know sounds backwards right?)

Anyone notice who kort might have hid behind? Considering there was only his death that seems to imply he was the scum kill, which is going to make this suck to try and read.

More when I get home and have more than just a phone to type into.

[Korlash]

Hmm... that's good enough to start. I love that ICE is the one to point it out too... Makes me want to see Banna's flip even more...

Vote: Iecerint

I still need to look into Teirce but it might have to wait as I have Batman tonight! na na na na na na na... BANE! rowl!

[Korlash]

Is your custom title a goal or a joke?

It often lets me get the upper hand against players who think they're 'all that'. Although, only works when I'm scum that is... Maybe next time...

But like, I could not be more fucking obvious town here if MoI posted my role PM in thread.

I know, I have a plethora of scum wins on my record that 'proves' that argument. *wink* I'll know soon enough what you are I think...

I'm The Tenth Doctor -- no rolename. I have exactly 3 abilities:

*shakes head* No... Bye...

[Korlash]

Eh, I'm still hoping he's some sort of scum support... But it does seem unlikely. Unless it's a gambit to pull out the vig... I really don't want to think MOI put an SK in here...

Korlash, I am aware of your role breadloaf on page 2-3 or whichever it was.

There is no conflict; my flavor stipulates that I'm (vaguely) from toward the end of my timestream.

Enlighten me to my breadloaf. I give you total permission.

And yes, there is a conflict.

[Korlash]

I mean look at the role claim. He's a bulletproof player with a killing ability who kills anyone who hides behind him.

Close, he claimed he kills anyone that he and another player targets together. But you're more or less correct, the claim is bullshit.

The problem is that A) The Doctor would never have an ability that kills, be it by his own hand or not. So that's bullshit. B) The whole "If someone else targets, they die" is a secondary ability that adds to another targeting ability. Banna has claimed no legitimate targeting ability, thus him targeting Teirce has no merit, thus the entire power is pointless.

If he is the Master (SK) then it does make sense that he has 'regen' and kill... So it might add up...

[Korlash]

We'll see... If he is the SK then blah... Whatever... I was just hoping the Master got enough credit in the final movie for saving the Earth and the Doctor to prevent him from having to be an SK again... *sigh* Guess my hopes are dashed...

[Korlash]

The place where you (explicitly?) claimed John Smith aka Human Doctor Mark One from Tierce's rolename's 2-parter.

So you believe I claimed 'john smith' aka the Doctor, but do not and did not see any sort of problem with you being 'the doctor'?... No, if you really thought I claimed to be 'john smith' and you were the doctor, you would think I was scum, lying, or you were mistaken about my crumb. You seem to think none of these which only goes to suggest your claim is bogus.

The Doctor is always getting people killed by his intervention. That's a major theme of the revived series.

My ability (probably) killed Tierce, so it isn't useless.

The Doctor was against killing regardless of how often it happened. HE WOULD NOT HAVE AN ABILITY TO KILL END OF STORY.

And what, you have an ability that kills a person IF a second person targets them as well? Is that what I'm hearing you claim? because that's impossible to be a town role and highly unlikely to be an ability by itself.

[Korlash]

[qquote="Banna"]Yes, that's how it works. They have to target them on the same night, too. Conceptually, if not flavorfully, it's a nerfed vig.[/quote]

No, it is not a nerfed vig. It is a secondary aspect of a role, like sanity for cops or an odds of success for doctors. Take any role, for example Roleblocker, add to it the addition that if anyone targets the same person you do they die, and bam... You have a modified Roleblocker. Replace roleblocker with any role you want, bam, modified any role you want.

What you claimed is an ability modifier without the ability to go along with it. There is no such role as "you target player A for no reason... BUT if so and so happens, then stuff happens." You always HAVE A REASON to target someone.

Town would also not have the role you have. Scum do not target scum (unless it's a support role) thus, you would only likely kill town 90% of the time. When you do kill scum, it would have to be when a town power role helped you out, which means wasting that town power role. (Technically it isn't wasted since a scum dies, but it means two power roles were used on one scum instead of diversifying and catching two)

Your modified vig only works n the scum's hands because, as I said before, there is a 90% chance it kills a town IF it kills anyone.

So your role not only sounds fake, but if it were to be a role would be given to scum. You lose this argument sir... good day... I SAID GOOD DAY!

MoI disagrees with you. Don't know what else to tell you.

*shakes head* No, if this ability was given to the Doctor it would have to be impulsive, i.e. you HAD to do it every night. If the Doctor was told "You may target someone and they might die..." he would say "I choose not to target anyone" every single time. Any Doctor Who fan knows this, MoI would not bastardize this game, and the Doctor specifically, to go against this rule. Making it impulsive, showing that the Doctor sometimes can't help but cause death, that might have been plausible and even interesting. Saying he chooses to do it... that's blasphemy...

[Korlash]

Actually, come to think of it, given lack of fakeclaims (which you seem to posit even though Tierce crumbed River aggressively), were I NOT the Doctor, I would likely assume that you were the Doctor and claim something else.

(Pretty sure that makes Korlash pretty town, though.)

Anyway, this should make it pretty clear that I am the Doctor (or have a Doctor fakeclaim). Which should have already been obvious, to be frank, because of the site fakeclaim meta.

If you were given the Doctor as a Safeclaim you would know I wasn't breadcrumbing John Smith as the mod would have physically told you, hey the Doctor isn't in this game... Given Terice's breadcrumbs, she had River as a Safeclaim, I would stake my reputation on that. She breadcrumbed too heavily not to have been told that claim was safe.

So yes, I believe you were given the Doctor as a safeclaim OR you think like I do that the Doctor would not be in this game... I am going with the former...

[Korlash]

1. If the Doctor were not in this game, he would almost certainly have appeared in the pre-game scene.
2. For the corollary (i.e. fakeclaim/realclaim), the Mod /outguess game is irrelevant, because it'd be Mod-made.

1. No... If the doctor were in this game the pregame sequence wouldn't have gone the way it did because madam de hotness would have recognized him... as would the rest of us. if the doctor were here, we wouldn't be killing each other because he would KNOW what is going on. The doctor being here kills the opening flavor dead.

2. Don't give me this. I've caught better scum than me (that's saying something sir) due to my fakeclaim analysis. "Out guessing the mod" and "Theme/setup speculation' are not the same thing and the people that treat it as such will always lose to people like me who use that tool. What you claimed makes no sense flavor wise/setup wise/ game wise. MoI will definitely think different than me and this type of speculation will always net me a mislynch or two at some point but luckily for me my record is in the green so I'll stick to what I'm good at.

I noticed in your claim you didn't actually give any flavor aside from 'being taken from near the end of your cycle'. Is there anything you would like to add?

Also, sorry for the triple post, but the idea of a doctor targeting the person you target sort of breaks down that entire role.

This is a good point. It is so much less likely a setup would create a role that in turn creates a paradox. Granted, it could be seen as a way to further weaken the town, but a ''weak vig' wouldn't need to be ADDITIONALLY weak.

[Korlash]

STARBUCK claimgasm makes her scum though. Sad.

I hate to continue to agree with you sir... But yeah... It's certainly a bad reason to just out and claim... How does being a commuter kill the hider targeting you? And why did Starbuck feel the scum were scared of her? We mislynched... how the hell would she know if she was even on the right track or not until Teirce's flip?

I'm near the end of my timestream. I'm tired, and I've seen many people become killed since my last regeneration. I'm displeased with it, but I've seen the signs and know I will change soon. I'll protect everyone again before that.

You'll 'protect' everyone 'again?' by 'killing' people? Flavor does not match role, and where the hell does 'again' come into play? You're 'displeased' with seeing people killed... so you kill more? No...

If you were town... MoI has tailored your role to be mislynched... I don't see him doing that.

I wrote my post before reading the rest. I assumed that kortul hid behind me because I did commute last night. Any actions that would have been taken towards me definitely would have hit him if he did, indeed, hid behind me. Since I'm neutered now to just being a townie, I'd rather come out with that information as a means to help the town rather than stay quiet.

So as a powerless townie... who fears the scum is after her... You choose to tell them you are a bad kill... so they can better hunt our power roles? ... Did you think this through... like... at all?

This is the first time that I've ever really crumbed in all my time playing, but I figured with a role of such high importance as Rose, that I should.

Juuuuuuust... making small talk... Trivia you might say... The last Doctor Who mafia I was in... I was scum... and guess who my safeclaim was. =3

Starbuck you breadcrumbed because tierce loves em, not because a 1-shot commuter is a superb role.

MoI is going to hand out some good scum fakes (hello River Song). Tierce got all excited in the scum qt and you followed along.

So you're telling us you've read the scum QT then?

[Korlash]

Rose as a commuter makes sense even if only 1-shot.

*puts head in hands*

I consider myself a fakeclaim connoisseur, I learned from the great herself... This... Suggests without a hint of a doubt that what you have claimed is fabricated...

[Korlash]

I linked the MafiaWiki page about Hiders in my post. You should read it.

I did, I post things as I read them and I hadn't read it when I posed that question.

With the fact that I was on the right track (even without knowing it), does that not give scum a reason?

Yes, it might give scum a reason to, but YOU wouldn't know you were on the right track. The only way you could have KNOWN you were on the right track is if you KNEW Teirce was scum...

That's not why I claimed. I claimed because I thought that I could help with figuring out how the hider died.

Yeah and I just illustrated why that was a bad move for a townie to make.

Okay, so what does that have to do with this game?

It has to do with me and my life... Thus it is relevant and important and you mus know about it! <3

Seems a little defensive for something I admitted was simple trivia... Implies it had nothing to do with this game...

No, it does not suggest that I fabricated my role.

Yeah, it does.

I had a hard time trying to figure out why Rose (someone who is a major character in Doctor Who) would be relegated to only being a commuter. I can see it now because of the amount of times that the Doctor has thrown her ass in the TARDIS and sent her away to keep her safe. Thus, why it makes sense.

I'll give you a chance, flavor... now... as much as you can...

[Korlash]

I think it's a travesty that Rose apparently does not have flavor or abilities related to her Phoenix powers.

Oh oh... Come back to this after she claims flavor...

I agree that the wording is terrible but I don't see why scum would fake claim for absolutely no reason.

Town don't really have a reason to either but they are much more likely to do it.

*nods* It's a valid point. I will say that I can certainly think of a reason scum would do it. I don't claim to have any strong evidence as to my theory... but it's certainly a possibility...

[Korlash]

The objective probability that I am town is much higher than the probability that I am mafia. I (probably) killed Tierce.

And the buzzer goes, "EHH" wrong...

If you were town, you wouldn't say "probably'... The power you claimed makes the probability that you killed Teirce as close to 100% as possible in a game of mafia... Explanation: IF, you didn't kill Teirce, someone else must have, THUS, someone else MUST have targeted her, THUS, your ability MUST have kicked in.

The only possible way you DIDN'T kill her is if you were blocked somehow, and that still means someone else targeted her which essentially means you WOULD have killed her if not blocked so it's more or less moot at this point.

Your claim is fake and thus you feel compelled to insert a word like "probably" to help give you wiggle room later. Sadly, it contradicts your claimed power.

[Korlash]

"Objective" means "3rd party POV."

Gratz, you just committed a Korlash personal tell. I shall have to document this game for future reference...

Also, this had nothing to do with my point at all. Enjoy death sir...

[Korlash]

You and Starbuck are really quiet now that Tierce is dead.

What can I say, without her smiling face to cheer me up I've fallen into a steep depression lessened only by cheap scotch and killing me some scumz.

For me, I was on the end of my term papers and now, both my finals are due on Tues. Hopefully, the beginning of this coming semester will give me a little bit of a break.

AH HA HA HA... Ahhh... That's funny right there... Ahhhhh... Fun stuff...