NomicScum, Game 2

[Robotnick2]

/egosearch

This will be funny.

Also, /in, if you don't have a full playerlist.
If you do, /in to replace.

[Robotnick2]

Nay

. 24 hours is, in my mind, too restrictive; 48 to me is a much nicer number. Skipping to me is a larger punishment than prodding, so as Cybele said, I would have liked to have seen the prod as a punishment for a first infraction. Furthermore, some people, such as myself, would have a hard time coming up with new rules in such a short space of time - some of us are unimaginative. Thus, even if we had declared we were here and active, we would still be punished, in direct opposition to the bill's spirit (as I see it) of punishing those that are inactive.

[Robotnick2]

Some people have lives, dear.

[Robotnick2]

The amendment's aren't official, they're just taken as suggestions.

[Robotnick2]

No, I'm reading it like that as well. Propose, debate, adjust, vote.

[Robotnick2]

I would vote, I think, for 48+24, but 24+24 is an acceptable compromise.

[Robotnick2]

Perhaps give a mechanism to earn extra tries? Say if you make the deadline without requiring a prod 3/5 times in a row, you get an extra "miss" before being eliminated. That's the only improvement I can think of.

Hmm, sorta like the anti-prod system in EtE8? I loved that idea then, and I like it now.

[Robotnick2]

No, although presumably the counter is reset after every infraction?

[Robotnick2]

Putting myself down as in support of

3

. It seems to friendliest to those who have problems accessing MS, while at the same time punishing people in the exact same time as it would if they completely stopped playing.

[Robotnick2]

Forfeiture rule	Players supporting	Players opposing	Players uncommitted
After third skip, full stop	animorpherv1, Chevre, Cybele, Lord Mhork, MonkeyMan576, Packbat, Xalxe	Feirei, JDGA, Robotnick2	malthusis, T-Bone
After third skip in five consecutive circuits	Chevre, Cybele, Feirei, MonkeyMan576*, Packbat, JDGA	animorpherv1, Lord Mhork, Xalxe, Robotnick2	malthusis, T-Bone
After third consecutive skip	Cybele, Chevre, Feirei, MonkeyMan576*, Packbat, Xalxe, JDGA, Robotnick2	animorpherv1	Lord Mhork, malthusis, T-Bone
After third skip in five consecutive circuits or fifth overall skip	animorpherv1, Chevre, Cybele, Feirei, MonkeyMan576*, Packbat, Xalxe	Lord Mhork, JDGA, Robotnick2	malthusis, T-Bone

* Conditional on support in principle for a future rule offering bonuses to active players

[Robotnick2]

VOTE: Nay.

I think that this is a really rushed and ill-thought through decision and I don't think we should do it and vetoing is fun!

Ahh, who am I kidding.

Vote: Aye

[Robotnick2]

I completely agree with Malthusis. Nice strategem making there

[Robotnick2]

Bump?

[Robotnick2]

VOTE: Nay - I really just don't see the point.

[Robotnick2]

Everyone then gets 24 hours to vote on which candidate they would like to enter.

This says I have to vote for a candidate.

Not really actually. It simply reads that if you were to vote for a candidate, you have a 24 hour window in which to do so. At least, that's my interpretation.

[Robotnick2]

VOTE: Yay

We need some sort of system for replacing, and this works better than most.

[Robotnick2]

When we start the next one, could we please provide a provision for this kind of thing? It's somewhat anticlimactic.

[Robotnick2]

re-/in, for the record.

What he said.

[Robotnick2]

I'd quite like something to be thrown in there about replacements, but I fear that that would overstep the boundaries of a pregame ruleset.

[Robotnick2]

/in for the remainder of the nomicscum series

that way when i cant do anymore, i can just out

What s/he said.

[Robotnick2]

Hmm. I'm in two minds about it - it would provide extra time, however it, to my mind, just makes the turns "messier". I guess I just like structure.
Because it doesn't, in my opinion,

harm

the game, I'd vote Aye. To not do so would seem obstructive and difficult.

[Robotnick2]

For neatness's sake, and to lessen ambiguity:

301.
Any player may propose a rule-change whilst the rule change of the player previous to them is being voted upon. If and when their turn begins, said rule-change shall be treated as if it were proposed at the beginning of their turn for all rule purposes save those specifying a minimum interval between proposal and voting.

This rule does not grant players the right to have said rule-change voted on before the beginning of their turn.

[Robotnick2]

VOTE: Aye

Thar.

[Robotnick2]

I haven't any ideas at all really, so this is good. I'll see if I can work a replacements clause into there as well - it seems logical to have it covered by the same process.

[Robotnick2]

Rule 302

If, at any point, a player with an unbanned Mafiascum.net account not currently playing (referred herein as "the Entrant") should make clear that they wish to join the current game, a vote as to whether to allow acceptance into the game is immediately undertaken amongst all current players, using a simple majority voting method. The current turn is put on hold during this vote, which shall last no more than 96 hours from moderator recognition of the entry.
If the vote should result in an

aye

result, the Entrant is immediately accepted into the game, and is placed in the turn queue, 2 places before the current player. The Entrant shall start at 0 points.
If the vote should result in a

nay

result, the Entrant is not accepted into the game, and is forthwith barred from applying again.

In addition, a "replacements queue" shall be created upon the acceptance of this rule, with the purpose of replacing any player that should, through action of Rule 113, voluntarily forfeit the game. Any player with an unbanned Mafiascum.net account may apply join this queue, and a vote similar as to the one described above shall be undertaken - if the result should be

aye

, the player is placed at the bottom of the queue; if

nay

, the player is not placed in the queue, and is barred from reapplication.
If a player should, through action of rule 113, voluntarily forfeit the game, then the first entrant in the queue shall be contacted by the moderator via PM, with regards to their willingness to "take over" from the forfeited player. If they should prove willing, they are immediately accepted into the game, and assume the points total, and position in the turn order, of the departing player; if not, the moderator shall then contact the second in the queue, and then the third, and so on, until a suitable entrant is found.
Should the list of replacements be exhausted, then no replacement will be issued for the departing player.

This rule supersedes and supplements Rule 201.

It's a little rough around the edges, but the basic structure's there. Any comments?

[Robotnick2]

Eurgh. Life intervered with plans today. I'll put something together tomorrow.

[Robotnick2]

302

If, at any point, a player with an unbanned Mafiascum.net account not currently playing (referred herein as "the Entrant") should make clear that they wish to join the current game, a vote as to whether to allow acceptance into the game is immediately undertaken amongst all current players, using a simple majority voting method.

This vote shall last no less than 1 game week from moderator recognition of the entry

If the vote should result in an aye result, the Entrant is immediately accepted into the game, and is placed in the turn queue

in alphabetical order

. The Entrant shall start at 0 points.
If the vote should result in a nay result, the Entrant is not accepted into the game, and is forthwith barred from applying again.

In addition, a "replacements queue" shall be created upon the acceptance of this rule, with the purpose of replacing any player that

should forfeit the game, either voluntarily or due to idleness.

Any player with an unbanned Mafiascum.net account may apply join this queue, and a vote similar as to the one described above shall be undertaken - if the result should be aye, the player is placed at the bottom of the queue; if nay, the player is not placed in the queue, and is barred from reapplication.
If a player

should forfeit the game, either voluntarily or due to idleness,

then the first entrant in the queue shall be contacted by the moderator via PM, with regards to their willingness to "take over" from the forfeited player. If they should prove willing, they are immediately accepted into the game,

are placed in the turn order in alphabetical order, and assume the points total of the departing player;

if not, the moderator shall then contact the second in the queue, and then the third, and so on, until a suitable entrant is found.
Should the list of replacements be exhausted, then no replacement will be issued for the departing player.

Furthermore, if a player in the replacement queue should indicate that they wish to immediately join the game, rather than wait for a slot to become available, they will be removed from the replacement queue and join the game immediately, as above.

This rule supersedes and supplements Rule 201.

Bolded parts are changes to the previous wording. Any other comments?

[Robotnick2]

strikethru

indicates removals,

underline

insertions.

302

If, at any point, a

player with an unbanned Mafiascum.net account

person

not currently playing

but eligible to join

(referred herein as "the Entrant") should make clear that they wish to join the current game, a vote as to whether to allow acceptance into the game is immediately undertaken amongst all current players, using a simple majority voting method. This vote shall last no less than 1 game week from moderator recognition of the entry

.

If the vote should result in an aye result, the Entrant is immediately accepted into the game, and is placed in the turn queue in alphabetical order. The Entrant shall start at 0 points. If the vote should result in a nay result, the Entrant is not accepted into the game, and is forthwith barred from

applying again

joining the current game

.

In addition, a "replacements queue" shall be created upon the acceptance of this rule, with the purpose of replacing any player that should forfeit the game

,

either voluntarily or due to idleness. Any

player with an unbanned Mafiascum.net account

eligible person

may apply join this queue, and a vote similar as to the one described above shall be undertaken - if the result should be aye, the player is placed at the bottom of the queue; if nay, the player is not placed in the queue, and is barred from

reapplication

joining the current game

. If a player should forfeit the game, either voluntarily or due to idleness, then the first entrant in the queue shall be contacted by the moderator via PM

, with regards

to

confirm

their willingness to "take over" from the forfeited player. If they should prove willing, they are immediately accepted into the game, are placed in the turn order in alphabetical order, and assume the points total of the departing player; if not, the moderator shall then contact the second in the queue, and then the third, and so on, until a suitable entrant is found. Should the list of replacements be exhausted, then no replacement will be issued for the departing player. Furthermore, if

a player

an entrant

in the replacement queue should indicate that they wish to immediately join the game, rather than wait for a slot to become available, they will be removed from the replacement queue and join the game immediately, as above.

This rule supersedes and supplements Rule 201.

Not entirely sure that a Nay vote should be a permanent disqualification, either - I'd suggest "for two complete circuits of turns", instead.

Hmm. Good catches. I can't believe that I missed that full stop.
I'm a bit against the idea of non-permanent disqualification actually - if we've already said no once, what reason would we have for changing our minds? Furthermore, it opens the game to a slight degree of external influence; let's say Player A wants to join, and is refused, but only by a small majority. What happens then if Player A persuades Players B, C, and D to join, and play, so that he can gain entry next time around? It undermines the entire ethos of the voting system, and is, in my opinion, a dent in the armour that we're creating.

[Robotnick2]

Hmm, okay. So, is everyone happy with this wording?:

302

If, at any point, a person not currently playing but eligible to join (referred herein as "the Entrant") should make clear that they wish to join the current game, a vote as to whether to allow acceptance into the game is immediately undertaken amongst all current players, using a simple majority voting method. This vote shall last no less than 1 game week from moderator recognition of the entry. If the vote should result in an aye result, the Entrant is immediately accepted into the game, and is placed in the turn queue in alphabetical order. The Entrant shall start at 0 points. If the vote should result in a nay result, the Entrant is not accepted into the game, and is forthwith barred from joining the current game.

In addition, a "replacements queue" shall be created upon the acceptance of this rule with the purpose of replacing any player that should forfeit the game either voluntarily or due to idleness. Any eligible person may apply join this queue, and a vote similar as to the one described above shall be undertaken - if the result should be aye, the player is placed at the bottom of the queue; if nay, the player is not placed in the queue, and is barred from joining the current game. If a player should forfeit the game, either voluntarily or due to idleness, then the first entrant in the queue shall be contacted by the moderator via PM to confirm their willingness to "take over" from the forfeited player. If they should prove willing, they are immediately accepted into the game, are placed in the turn order in alphabetical order, and assume the points total of the departing player; if not, the moderator shall then contact the second in the queue, and then the third, and so on, until a suitable entrant is found. Should the list of replacements be exhausted, then no replacement will be issued for the departing player. Furthermore, if an entrant in the replacement queue should indicate that they wish to immediately join the game, rather than wait for a slot to become available, they will be removed from the replacement queue and join the game immediately, as above.

This rule supersedes and supplements Rule 201.

[Robotnick2]

Alright then, in which case I'll

put it to the vote please Packbat.

(hey, I've just found our new catchphrase. Forget "Deal, or no deal?" or "Final answer?"... I'll "Put it to the vote"!)

[Robotnick2]

Oh, oops.

Aye

.

[Robotnick2]

Wunderbar! :3

[Robotnick2]

Sorry, been ill all of today - I've read 1,000 pages in 12 hours O_O

Admit to both

I see no reason NOT to, and we need more players anyhoo, soyeah.

[Robotnick2]

Hmm. I see where you're coming from, but I do think that your analogy is flawed somewhat.
"He gives her £1" ... "she is given £1". I think it call comes down to whether you treat the verb "given" as a description of a finite quality - whether "only given" is redundant, as it were, which to my mind it is.

(also, we'd be invoking judgement on Feirei's actions, therefore the one who preceded her would be Judge)

[Robotnick2]

Hmm. Curious; I am indeed Judge.

By mechanism of Rule 203, it is implicitly expressed that players shall be given one week and one week only to propose a change AND bring it to the vote. Feirei failed on the second of these points - she proposed a change (which is constituted by her acceptance of Packbat's suggestion) but did not bring it to the vote. However, there is no rule on exactly what happens should this rule be broken, except that of Rule 115, which states that she loses the game should she break a rule. By Rule 212, a Judge may, at their discretion and in accordance with game custom and the spirit of the game, address matters that are not

clearly

portrayed under the current ruleset. Unfortunately, the matter is very clear - Feirei broke Rule 203, and is therefore dealt with by Rule 115. Therefore,

it is my Judgement that Feirei should be removed from the game, as per Rule 115

. Furthermore,

it is the turn of jackofspades

, as he is next in the turn order.

He will have

forty-eight (48) hours to make a proposal

, as decreed by Rule 202. He will have

one game week (defined by Rule 203) to bring a suggested proposal to vote

, from the start of his turn, as per Rule 203.

Remember we now have to vote on whether his turn can start.

Vote Aye

[Robotnick2]

Hmm. I wonder if I can vote for JDGA's accession yet... may as well find out.

Vote Aye to JDGA

[Robotnick2]

I see no reasonable objection to the intended purpose, but I'll wait for Packbat before I vote. He's better at nitpicking the game mechanics than I am.

[Robotnick2]

Our voting system's still supermajority, isn't it?

[Robotnick2]

nope. its unanimous for the first two rounds, then simple majority if im not mistaken

Aye, I meant that. Matching words to definitions isn't my strong point.

In which case, if anyone else votes Nay, I'll vote nay - I'm not sure about it, but I don't want to be the only one blocking the ascent.

[Robotnick2]

(There's nothing in 302, but there is a clause in 114 - "No person may join the player list of a game from which they have been removed.")

Also, CSL, yo make a valid point, however it was not clear that you were indeed bringing it to vote, nor was that the intention at the time, now was it?

[Robotnick2]

Guys, I really don't think there's anything problematic with my suggested proposal. But I don't want to put it up for vote if its not gonna find favor. Does anyone have any suggestions/ideas on rules to propose?

Hmm. You could try a simple-majority amendment, if you'd like?

[Robotnick2]

I'm okay with it, but it does have the unfortunate consequence of a tie causing the bill to lose.

[Robotnick2]

We have 5 players at the moment, with the addition of JDGA. Not too sure what you meant by that second sentence?

[Robotnick2]

Aye

Also, I'll do stuff on the Wiki for now. Feel free to amend as you wish though.

[Robotnick2]

Also, guys, you could have been nice and let me stay via Rule 202. (Just skipping me and moving on)

By Rule 203: the vote has until the end of the day (in said timezone from which the rules operate from), as his turn began over one week ago.

"When a rule-change has been brought to vote, each player shall be given one game week to vote on that rule change."
Soyeah, voting would have closed next Saturday. As it is, voting's closed, with an Aye result. As I understand it, jackofspades receives 13 points?

[Robotnick2]

Bump.

[Robotnick2]

Hi Kcda, maybe I missed something...

What is the purpose of this rule??

This.

Why do we need this rule? What good would it do the game?

[Robotnick2]

Meh. May as well. VOTE: Yes

[Robotnick2]

UPDATE THE WIKI ALREADY AND WHO THE FUCK TURN IS IT

Y'know, asking politely would get a hell of a lot more done.
My OCD's making me update the wiki. Don't think I'm doing it for you.

[Robotnick2]

soo... you're only giving somone 48 hours to get a proposal up to voting snuff before they get skipped?

It's unclear, but I think he means "at the end of the game week, if you've not put the rule to the vote, it's automatically put to the vote, BUT you can't put a rule to the vote that's younger than 48 hours - IE there has to be 48 hours of deliberation, at least."

@Packbat

: Could you please clarify "this allotted time"? It's reading at the moment that you have 48 hours from the start of your turn to put something to vote.

[Robotnick2]

Wonderful. No further suggestions from me

Also, I updated the wiki again. Kcda has 11 points, because 14 * .8 = 11.2 .

EDIT Actually, just spotted, you're proposal 306, not 305.

[Robotnick2]

Oh, crap, I just looked at the wiki, and it's got two major problems:

1. The scores have not been updated.

2. Amendments receive the number of the amending proposal

.

Yes I think this will become problematic both for housekeeping and in terms of trying to remember which rule is which based on their number.

This is why I tried to sort this out on my turn.

The only reason this is a problem is if people, like myself, don't read the rules and are generally ignorant about how it works.

[Robotnick2]

Bah, sorry, I've a really full schedule lately.

Aye

[Robotnick2]

Well shit. Erm. I forgot. I'll throw something together tonight, hang on.

[Robotnick2]

Eurgh. Again, I forgot. Sorry about that.

[Robotnick2]

Blargh. Really sorry, could you see if you could find a replacement for me please? I've really not got the time anymore to devote to this, I'm afraid.

Oh, and VOTE: Nay