Mini 1354: Vedere le Viste! Game Over!

[Bub Bidderskins]

Vote: Konowa

"The only name I recognize" is a BS reason to RVS somebody and reeks of dodging responsibility.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Bub: How is my arbitrary vote -any- different from any other early game vote? I see you do not have an issue with Thomith's vote when quite honestly your reasoning could as easily be applied to his vote.

@TheWorst: Thoughts on Bub's vote?

I view this as an over-reaction to what is clearly an RVS vote. Also, the deferral to another opinion is...strange.

unvote;
vote: Thomith

Why change your non-wagon RVS vote to another non-wagon RVS vote? It makes no sense.

confirm vote: Konowa

It seems like he's over-reacting to my faux-serious RVS vote. He even defers to another opinion to make sure he's okay. I don't like it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Voting without stating my reason at the time is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion. As it makes people take stances.

Asking people to take a stance on page one without any explanation is like asking somebody to choose between door #1 and door #2.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I suppose being grumpy may be more of a town trait or you could be trying to over compensate ive learned from past games that sometimes the most "helpful" town players are just really good scum and for that reason im watching you Thomith for now I will UNVOTE: Thomith

Do you mind putting your vote somewhere useful?

Also, what are your thoughts on Konowa?

[Bub Bidderskins]

bub what about all the other people who dont have their votes anywhere, why only single out one of them?

Because Tangion made a random vote after my vote on Konowa, and then he unvoted for RVS reasons without any other comments.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I asked for TheWorst’s opinion on Bub’s vote because he posted afterwards and did not mention anything about it. His response of “eh, it looks like a RVS vote to me” is strange as Bub used strong language in his vote on me. This does not read as uninformed majority to me. The vote on soda is nothing but “hey guys, over here. look at me, I’m scumhunting!!!”.

That does explain why you asked the worst's opinion.

hm, i kind of like kons logic, so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Theworst
any responses to that worst?

Shameless sheep: go!

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote; vote:Tangion

Forth vote on Thomith wagon. The reason you gave was: being grumpy. You then unvoted Thomith when you were pressured for it and were the fifth vote on Konowa for totally sheeped reasons. Why are you always trying to get on the biggest wagon tangion?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Tangion is at L-2 if I'm counting correctly, just letting everybody know.

This game's activity has been really low, and I've been a part of that. Everybody needs to start posting more. We shouldn't lynch on page 5, though, especially when there are votes like this:

VOTE: Tangion
for not defending himself.

being made.

Arugula, how is "not defending himself" a valid reason to lynch Tangion? Is that a scumtell?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I have horrible counting skills. I was off by two? Wow. I feel embarrassed.

You started from the Konowa wagon. Easy mistake to make .

I didn't want to just have an empty vote, but I'm voting Tangion for the reasons already stated and for not defending himself.

How is "not defending himself" a scumtell, then?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub, Axxle, and Arugula were on the Thomith wagon, then all switched over to the Tangion wagon (at varying times, of course). I'd say there's one scum in there, definitely not all three though.

I never was on the Thomith wagon.

He has 9 posts most of which are 1 or 2 liners and most of them are incredibly null. He doesn't have much content nor has he done anything to really justify this type of a wagon in my opinion.

McStab, look at Tangion's posts through the eyes of newb town...does it fit any less? I like, can't even begin to formulate an opinion on Tangion at this point and there are 6 votes on him O.o

Tangion joined the site in 2009, so I seriously doubt he's a "noob".

Right now this game is hard to read. I don't like how Tangion has jumped from wagon to wagon, but Arugula's vote on him reeks. I can see why people don't like soda, but he hasn't posted enough for me to make a judgement on him just yet.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Over the night I re-read the game, and now I'm convinced that Yabbaguy is scum. He never voted for Tangion and look at his defense of him in this post:

I'm finding it difficult to fall in love with these wagons, so I'm finding it difficult to participate in this game.

I'm not understanding the leading Tangion wagon: he's not being terribly insightful, but he looks honest.

There's a strategic point that's eluding me, I know eventually we're going to have to flip one of these wagons over, and that's going to provide the information, but every time one's growing in this game, I just get this awful feeling that the reasons for each are hollow and/or there's scum opportunism involved.

Bub, Axxle, and Arugula were on the Thomith wagon, then all switched over to the Tangion wagon (at varying times, of course).

I'd say there's one scum in there, definitely not all three though.

If no other wagon pops up out of nowhere, I think I'm going to change my mind and go for Konowa. It's the wagon that's been stagnant right down the way, so it's possible that he's scum and the other scum are sandbagging - makes sense since you need 7 out of 9/10 Townies to lynch if the scum don't pitch in, so that's rather effective. Lynch the least opportunistic-looking wagon, in other words.

I'm going to try one more time for Axxle, I think he's the best lynch. But I'll swap very quickly to Konowa if I'm not sensing support.

Vote: Axxle

First bolded part is a soft defense of Tangion. The second is an attack on people who attacked Tangion, (chainsaw). The third is shameless fence sitting and plausible deniability. He's basically saying "Well, I could go either way on this". But look what happens as soon as Tangion gets to L-1.

Bub, Axxle, and Arugula were on the Thomith wagon, then all switched over to the Tangion wagon (at varying times, of course). I'd say there's one scum in there, definitely not all three though.

I never was on the Thomith wagon.

Whoops, and I omitted Konowa. That actually makes more sense with my reads, come to think.

call out players for being opportunistic, then say you're willing to jump ship to another wagon anyway.

wat

Not the argument I was making, it was the speed of the wagon. Konowa's wagon has been stagnant the way through, whereas Tangion and Thomith were both wagons that formed and dissolved with more speed. Insert the "scum sandbagging theory" that leads me to think

Konowa's wagon is most likely to turn scum.

I just want to clarify. This is for my voting habits and the certainty in my speech?

My best guess right now is that either you xor ("exclusive or") Arugula is being opportunistic in your voting since you've both been on the spontaneous wagons (and Konowa, *that's* the third guy). I think the assessment is inconclusive if either Thomith or Tangion turns up scum, but that's my best guess.

I think Arugula's scumhunting is more legit and straightforward by comparison, so that's why I voted you originally. But...

Unvote, Vote: Konowa

...is now my best vote.

He jumps strait onto the next biggest bandwagon. Now keep in mind that he has provided no reasons whatsoever for his attack on Konowa. Check out his iso for yourself, but his case on Konowa consists of

If no other wagon pops up out of nowhere, I think I'm going to change my mind and go for Konowa. It's the wagon that's been stagnant right down the way, so it's possible that he's scum and the other scum are sandbagging - makes sense since you need 7 out of 9/10 Townies to lynch if the scum don't pitch in, so that's rather effective. Lynch the least opportunistic-looking wagon, in other words.

And

Not the argument I was making, it was the speed of the wagon. Konowa's wagon has been stagnant the way through, whereas Tangion and Thomith were both wagons that formed and dissolved with more speed. Insert the "scum sandbagging theory" that leads me to think Konowa's wagon is most likely to turn scum.

And

Konowa has to speak for himself, but as for me, my hunch is that this a Townwagon.

Wait, what? Is that a complete contradiction? He made that post back when the Konowa wagon was the biggest wagon. But then when Tangion was getting wagoned he said that the Konowa wagon looked like it was on scum. That is a massive contradiction that is purely motivated out of a scum desire to protect his scum bud.


The severity of this cannot be overstated. Earlier in the day he said that the Konowa was a TOWN wagon, but then later he voted for Konowa BECAUSE OF THE WAGON!!!!! When did he change his tone? When Konowa was the main competing wagon for Tangion.

And I know I just repeated myself, but this is HUGE.

vote: yabba

[Bub Bidderskins]

Yeah I'm feeling a yabba wagon too. Keep your eyes on Arugula though, note that yabba's post seems to fake distance himself from Arugula without actually launching a real criticism on Arugula.

Vote: yabbaguy

Nice catch Bud.

@Bud - What do you think of Thomith and Arugula?

Arugula's vote on Tangion was weak, but it doesn't seem like a bus to me.

Thomith said quite a lot without saying much at all. He made this post:

while i agree tangion does seem scummy, for the reasons i have mentioned i think soda is alot scummier, my vote is staying there and unless i see good reason i dont think i will be moving it as i believe soda is scum.

Which shows soft support for the Tangion wagon without actually supporting it. He's my most likely third scum.

As for others. If there was a bus on the Tang wagon I think it's most likely Axxle. His vote was based off "soda coaching" and was in the middle of the wagon. Kind of weak and easy hop.

Soda might be the third scum just based off his individual play, but I find it unlikely that all three scum would be sitting in one big voting block.

Konowa is basically clear because he was the competing wagon to Tang that scum were pushing.

If Furcolow is scum then he is extremely stupid.

I'm leaning town on McStab for his overall play and Scumhunter for this:

Given the way this wagon happened and the fact it was incredible weak reasoning, I'd be shocked if Tangion is scum.

Scum can fake that, though, that's why I'm only leaning.

The Worst is null.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I

really

thought Tangion's wagon was just a wagon on someone who posts badly, not a wagon on a scummy person, so I thought it was an issue of scum trying to convince Town to simply lynch a weak player for really bad reasons. Basically: I had to pick a wagon at the end, I thought Tangion's was definitely opportunistic, so I voted Konowa's slower-moving one.

Bub's contradiction case put my Townwagon post out of chronology order.

Scum list coming soon...

Uh, no it doesn't. If you had read my post you would have seen that I said that you made your "townwagon" remark before you voted for Konowa. That's what makes it suspicious. You said it looked like a townwagon, but then you voted on the wagon when your scumbud was in trouble, mainly

because of the wagon

.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Scumhunter, I see where you're coming from, but look at this from the perspective of the Konowa wagon. Yabba said that the Konowa wagon looked like a townwagon. Then when Tang started getting wagoned, he voted for Konowa solely because the wagon looked like it was on scum. He did zero scumhunting on Konowa and only started voting for him after konowa was wagoned. Very convenient timing there, if I do say so myself.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Lucky: What do you think of Yabbaguy?

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Bub: You voted Tangion-scum first, but you kept giving sideways glances at Arugula every step of the way, even saying you didn't want the Day to end, yet you kept your vote to end the Day. Why? Isn't that contradictory play?

It was D-1 page seven and I wanted to keep an open mind. What I did was completely different from what you did. I'm not sure if you understand what I'm getting at. The issue isn't that you didn't like the Tang wagon. Considering that Tang was scum, that is scummy, but not terribly inditing. However, the

only

reason that you gave for voting Konowa was that the wagon looked like it was on scum when you said previous that it looked like a "townwagon".

That is not consistent and is textbook scumplay. Scum have to manufacture reads, which is exactly what you did there. Blatant contradiction. It's an open and shut case for me.

Yabba dies today. Nobody else. He's that much scummier than everybody in the game right now IMO.

[Bub Bidderskins]

What's the case on Lucky exactly?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Replacements come in with "off" reads all the time. They usually have fresh perspectives on the game that are different from those playing. Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't make them scum. Furthermore, I think it's unlikely that him, Tang, and Yabba are on the same team together, considering they were all three on the Konowa wagon right after each other, although individual I do think Soda looked scummy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

That's poor reasoning McStab and I think it could be considered OMGUS.

The main reason should be that the slot in general is scummy. Lucky didn't make the slot scummy, it was already scummy.
Thing is, Lucky did

nothing

to help it.
I think Lucky should probably either give his full read list or defend his slot successfully. (by that I mean explaining Soda's actions)

@Bud I've made my case on Soda plenty of times. You can also read the iso between Tangion and Soda to add more proof.
You're pushing yabba p. hard but I'm still not entirely convinced yet. FMPOV there isn't enough to implicate Yabba, mainly because his posts are few and far between and most of them contain some effort to explain his thought process.
Right now I'm thinking Soda and Axxle/Arugula. Thomith is at the back of my mind since he still hasn't responded.

@Arugula You should start coming up with reasoning on your own because it's not gonna help town if not. I agree though, the wagon went up too fast.

Also @Mod Axxle voted Lucky. Fix plz.

Weren't soda's post few and far in between? I can see the case against soda/lucky, but I think an outright contradiction is a much stronger scumtell than just general posting style.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Lucky: What do you think of the fact that role cop is usually a scum role?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I think we should hold off lynching Lucky at least until tomorrow, when we can maybe get some results from him.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Yabba is not being lynched.

This is problematic.

Seriously, the guy flat out contradicted himself and was on the biggest counter-wagon to Tang. WHY THE FUCK ISN'T HE DEAD YET!!! The case on lucky is paper-thin, and we should give Thomith's replacement time to acclimate into the game (although I do think Thomith/Venmar is likely the third scum).

Yabba is not scumhunting at all. HE HAS NOT EVEN VOTED TODAY!!! Please, for the love of God lynch this guy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Because Yabba is infinitely scummier than Venmar/Thomith. He flat-out contradicted himself and has not done any scumhunting.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Here's the thing. The main case against Thomith that I can see is that he wasn't on the Tang wagon and that his posts were unsubstantial.

Yabba has done all of that, plus more. Yabba wasn't just not on the Tang wagon, he switched to the main counterwagon in an EXTREMELY suspicious manner. Plus he contradicted himself. I can't see how Ven is anywhere close in scumminess to Yabba.

Yes, Ven is my most likely number three, but there are other possibilities such as the Axxle or Arugula bus senario or The Worst being scum. But I am 100% sure that Yabba is scum.

Pre-Edit:

1) How is ven scummier?
2) Posting but not scumhunting is one of the hallmarks of scum. Actually, it's probably my number one scumtell.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Is somehow worse than Yabba's blatant switch from calling Konowa a townwagon to voting for him when Konowa became the largest counterwagon to Yabba's partner?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Im sorry Right now Bub looks like hes bussing so fucking hard it hurts.
VOTE: Bub

I don't scum hunt does this make me scum?

If you post a decent amount, then probably.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Not scumhunting and not posting is lurking and a null-tell, though. The main thing to watch for is people that are fake-scumhunting. They make big posts like this:

A player-by-player in general:

Furcolow - A completely fucking useless brick, aside from hammering scum supposedly by accident. Claimed vanilla, but considering the rest of my list, tilts scummy as long as his content amounts to squadoosh on a stick.
Thomith - Leaning Town. Couldn't tell from this game, so I looked at his meta and he was using a lot of weasel words when he was scum in Open 402. Here he looks more sure of himself.
Scumhunter - Town. Liking how he's trying to not be opportunistic, whereas most others are getting really bouncy with their votes, especially today. I mean, everyone's getting super bouncy when it comes to getting on wagons D2.
Arugula - Leaning scum - I also think the vote on Tangion is likely to be a bus, it came on late and was for a bad reason, and now he's trying to sheep

another

wagon (mine) in an effort to blend in. Posting style seems off as well.
TheWorst - Town. If there's ever such a thing as playing a cookie-cutter scumhunting game, I'm thinking that would be it.
Axxle - Don't know. The case I made earlier isn't sounding right in my own head. I'm still getting this stupid vibe in my head that's saying "there's something wrong with this guy, it just feels wrong", but I can't carry on. Maybe Axxle just needs to post better, like posting longer or being more transparent in his thoughts somehow. That would help.
Bub Bidderskins - Leaning Town, but is now

lying

about the fact that my case is still valid. I even said "I will

change my mind

to Konowa if I get no support", it's a perfectly obvious play, I've explained it step-by-step why it's valid, and you've still got your head in your ass. Also not sure what to make of sitting firmly on the Tangion wagon despite giving weird sideways glances at Arugula every step of the way.
SodaSpirit17/Luckyjt - Leaning scum, on one hand it does look like Soda was coaching Tangion and Lucky's first few posts are scummy, but on the other, the slot is a brick (not the completely fucking useless brick from earlier, but...) and it could be an opportunistic lynch. Put one way, I favor the straightforward "he's scum" explanation more. ^_^
McStab - Unsure. Looked straightforward for one after-V/LA post D1, but is getting super-bouncy on D2 and voting Thomith, then me in rapid succession. His slot's too opaque for me to tell.
Konowa - Leaning Town, if somehow BOTH the Konowa wagon AND Tangion wagon were scum (top 2 at the end of D1), I'll eat my hat. Maybe I could be overvaluing that assessment, but I'm definitely more confident he's innocent now.

---

No vote, just a few questions:

@Furcolow: I'm sorry I called you a fucking useless brick... okay, not really. How the flying fuck are we meant to tell the difference between you being scum and Town?
@Arugula: "not defending oneself is scummy"... why?
@McStab: Why is my play scummy?
@Bub: You voted Tangion-scum first, but you kept giving sideways glances at Arugula every step of the way, even saying you didn't want the Day to end, yet you kept your vote to end the Day. Why? Isn't that contradictory play?

That say a lot but have no real thrust or pressure.

And I'm bussing? lolwut?

P-edit:

Is somehow worse than Yabba's blatant switch from calling Konowa a townwagon to voting for him when Konowa became the largest counterwagon to Yabba's partner?

Yup

How so?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Yabba's actions can be explained by a townie trying to put pressure elsewhere, or not liking the speed of the Tangion wagon.

Venmar's actions can be explained by being scum and having fake reads that change with the wind.

Yes, Yabba could easily be town who called the wagon on Konowa bad before throwing a meaningless vote it's way when a scum was being lynched while make no real effort to scumhunt through two days.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Venmar is at L-2

just so everybody knows.

Konowa and Bud are obv. town. Arugula's last posts have been town as well.

The last scum are between Venmar, yabba and Lucky I think.

If Venmar flips town, AND Arugula or yabba flip scum, I'd bet that both of them are scum - but I highly doubt this eventuality.

Either way, we can test it out by lynching Venmar.

@Bud; I know yabba is acting super scummy, but you have to concede, particularly given Konowa's arguments and the interactions between Thomith and Tangion that there's a high chance of finding scum in a Venmar lynch. Even Lucky's claim leaves him as a pretty valid scum target, but I'd rather wait and see how that pans out and instead lynch Venmar today.

I do admit that Venmar/Thomith is/was scummy, but I am a lot more confidant in Yabba being scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Axxle, I have seen town rolecops and town roleblockers. Yes, they are usually scumroles, but they can be town-aligned.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Because Yabba is scummier.

[Bub Bidderskins]

bub, let's agree on one thing, I'm not dying today. It's your prerogative to disbelieve me, but your head is now in your ass trying to be all "It's yabb, it's obv yabb, I've found scum, I will aggressively pursue him and keep pressuring him and being a ruthless scumhunter and I'm going to be such a hero!" You're failing on the persuasion front.

Hell no. You are getting lynched today.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Yes, I am tunneling, but if I could pick anybody else it would be you.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Bub what do you think of Arugula and Konowa? Another thing, if you're so sure in Yabba why don't you search for a proper third scum?

Konowa is prob town because he was the opposing bandwagon to Tang on D-1. Arugula could have bussed Tang, but my gut says he didn't. I'm barely leaning town on him.

Okay, the Yabba wagon isn't going anywhere, so I might as well claim my result.

I'm a

watcher

. I watched RXK last night, and Yabba was the only person who visited him. That basically confirms Yabba as scum. That's the reason I've been pushing so hard on Yabba. I wanted to see if I could get Yabba lynched without claiming that and then maybe be able to catch another scum. Having said that, I'd be perfectly fine with a Venmar lynch, but Yabba is confirmed scum. Actually, I think maybe we should lynch Venmar today and let the scum WIFOM their way through the night. We'll see. Regardless, the important thing is that Yabba is 100% confirmed scum and should die today or tomorrow.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Wow this game was too easy, almost feel bad for mafia. And here I was overthinking everything and thinking everyone was mafia.
VOTE: Yabba
Sorry for doubting you Bub, you pushed too hard on the contradiction which wasn't proof enough. I did find Yabba's last post really really scummy though.

Well, I was kind of an asshole...

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm not going to claim my result until Lucky claims his.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Actually...

LUCKY, CLAIM ONLY WHO YOU TARGETED, NOT THE ACTUAL RESULT!!!

Then we'll ask whoever he targeted to claim. This might catch one of them in a lie.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I was thinking about the possibility of catching the other person in a lie. Lucky is most likely a legit role-cop, the question is the alignment.

I think you should claim just your target.

[Bub Bidderskins]

When scumhunter claims his.

That doesn't contradict my result. I watched McStab and nobody visited him.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Uh, I think Lucky should claim his result first. If Scumhunter was scum he could claim his town side and go along Lucky. There's no way to avoid this. If Lucky is scum, however, he can't predict Scumhunter's role and could get it wrong. I can only see Lucky claiming Scumhunter's role first to be productive for town, because either way Scumhunter if scum will get off scott free, may as well check on Lucky. Do you disagree, Bub?

In principle that's true, but I find it very likely that Lucky is actually a rolecop of some stripe. That strategy would only work if Lucky's a goon, but I find it unlikely that there won't be a single scumrole in a setup with one of the strongest power roles in the game.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Scumhunter being vanilla basically clears him. I really don't like Axxle's wagon jump and setting me up for a lynch, and back on D-1 he made a very possible bus vote onto Tang. However, Lucky's claim would fit better with the setup. I'm torn between them right now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I like McStab's idea. Just because Lucky might be scum doesn't mean we still can't use his role. If Venmar doesn't come up as an Oracle, then it's GG. If he's telling the truth, then we've got at least one confirmed townie in LYLO. Considering this plan, I think our best lynch candidate is Axxle for reasons that I've already explained.

unvote; vote: Axxle

[Bub Bidderskins]

I watched lucky and he was only visited by venmar, so nothing strange there.

VOTE: Bub
Yeah I like this vote

Vote: Elmo

This makes me think that Elmo is sparing me to try and lynch me using WIFOM. He's been trying to put me in the prospective lynch pool ever since I wasn't killed N-2.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub, why did you choose to watch RXK N1? That's the only doubt I have in your claim.

He was fairly vocal and got on the Tang wagon. Also, a few players listed him as town, but he wasn't so pro-town as to be an obvious doc/watcher target.

[Bub Bidderskins]

MOD: I will be V/LA from Tuesday until Saturday

You might want to hold off on a lynch until I'm back so I can get my night action in.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Good job guys!

As for this game, I think it's one of the best town games I've ever played, although I did get a little lucky on night one. When I got that result I looked back at Yabba to try and find scumtells that I could create a case around. It still worked out in the end, though. Good game all round!

The setup was interesting, and it almost got the best of town, though it was slightly town sided. The oracle is pretty strong, and watcher is one of the strongest power roles in the game. The scum don't have anything to counteract that.