A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[BBmolla]

What makes you think it's pushed by scum specifically?

Stefan: well, I can't say I'm pleased that greenknight's leaning that way but on the whole I think there's a very decent chance that he'll flip scum or that I can convince him that shooting us would be suboptimal (his case against us lacks merit and vigging strong players is generally bad and doubleplusbad in multiball), so I'm also not that bothered.

I refuse to believe such a large amount of the town is so idiotic.

[Minimum]

I'm not seeing anything that's inconsistent with standard townie awfulness here. You got a town read on the voigtster?

[Benmage]

This Bvoigt lynch is awful and pushed by scum.

Which ones voting him are scum?

Personally its like I said.. scum are content to deadline coast because the only two viable wagons are both on town. G-G.

[BBmolla]

I'm not seeing anything that's inconsistent with standard townie awfulness here. You got a town read on the voigtster?

Yes. People are giving him shit for the same shit I've done this game.

[Benmage]

Is 72 hours enough time to wagon Shadow?

If you want Sala and don't want Bvoigt lynched, would you prefer Shadow over Bvoigt?

Same question to Bvoigt voters... if not Bvoigt would you prefer Shadow over Sala being lynched?

I'd prefer Shadow over either of these 2.

Unvote vote Shadow

(Lets see... I'll be around to make sure a lynch happens... we have the time... lets stop voting 2 obvtown.)

[Dolorous Edd]

Edd, I want your scum-read on Feysal and town-read on Stefan explained asap please.

I don’t really have the time to explain it right now (still on V/LA till Wed). But a lot of Stefan’s play strikes me as genuine and trying to scumhunt, and Feysal’s play as a whole seems forced and trying to throw a nonchalant attitude out there, but really feeling awkward and unnatural.

I'd prefer Shadow over either of these 2.

Shadow is a vig bait though. Anyone with a mind would know to shoot him tonight (*hint hint*, like if you’re a townie who gets chosen today)

[Dolorous Edd]

Is 72 hours enough time to wagon Shadow?

Also, there are 4 days left, not 3.

[Eddard Stark]

A Maester's collar signifies that maesters do not serve themselves, but are instead servants of all of Westeros. The collar consists of several links of different types of metal. Each metal signifies an area the Maester has studied.

Day 1, Votecount 40

Minimum (1) - Saporerint
Saporerint (8) - Minimum, bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, BBmolla, Shinori, Regfan, Albert B. Rampage
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
Shinori (1) - Staeg
Shadow1psc (2) - Lyanna Stark, Benmage

bvoigt (10) - Plum's Yo Mamma, greenknight, SnowStorm, Dolorous Edd, Tyene Sand, Pandora, MagnaofIllusion, Seraphim, StefanB, kortul

Jal (1) - DCLXVI

Not Voting (4):

Mockingjaye, Plessiezrus, Jal, Feysal

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 5th September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-05 18:59:59)
  
• MJ may be V/la for a hurricane. Starbuck/Benmage/MOI are all V/la.

CHOOSE SNOWBOARDING

Dolorous Edd (1) - Jal

Feysal (10) - Saporerint, Bvoigt, greenknight, Shinori, DCLXVI, Dolorous Edd, Benmage, Albert B. Rampage, Pandora, SnowStorm

Minimum (2) - StefanB, Lyanna Stark
Starbuck (1) - Starbuck
Shadow1psc (1) - Mockingjaye
greenknight (9) - Plum's Yo Mamma, Minimum, Tyene Sand, Plessiezarus, kortul, Seraphim, MagnaofIllusion, Regfan, Feysal
kortul (4) - Mastermind of Sin, BBmolla, Staeg, Shdow1psc

Not Choosing (0):

No One

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'. Once a choose has 15 votes it will be locked in but not end day.

Prodding Jal, Plessiezarus and DCLXVI. Checking Starbuck's access, too.

Any mistakes? Point them out.

[BBmolla]

If you want Sala and don't want Bvoigt lynched, would you prefer Shadow over Bvoigt?

Would you rather lynch town or town?

[Pandora]

If everyone else has stopped caring about obvscum, the shame is entirely theirs. And I'm not going to blindly slap my vote and choice on the largest wagons, particularly now that we got an extension. It is because people have done that that there is a wagon on me.

You know, despite you pretty much doing the blindly slap choose on biggest wagon other then you, the question I asked was "Who out of the actually possible people do you want to vote and choose?" not "Just read the biggest wagons and vote them please." As for the blanket dismissal of everyone choosing you, the majority of people on you are on you because they think you're scummy. The way you're not putting any effort to keep up with the game is scummy. It's like this is one big :effort: ball to you.

Your case on greenknight:
The first question was an answer to why he would bandwagon. Explaining that he thinks it's protown is the point of the statement, so.. yeah.
The second point is super-defensive. It did look like you were attacking Starbuck for her choose strategy. Saying you meant something else later doesn't retcon what you did earlier. The first point in the post you voted in is a theory disagreement The second point was 'not wanting to choose scum', which considering she was choosing herself, is more theory disagreements. The fact that you're misrepresenting your closest wagon rival and choosing him over it is simply awful.

Benmage: Shadow1 is prob-town so I'd prefer not-a-wagon there over wagon.

[Shinori]

Side note: My read on Staeg has completely flopped and now I am leaning scum on him.

Still prefer the salamaence/whoever replaced him's lynch. And Choosing feysal is fine with me.

[Saporerint]

Hey guys, Iecerint here. I've made it through page 17. I'm going to go ahead and post what I have so far. I'm making notes and a town/scum list. I still haven't read half the thread, so things may change.

I haven't vetted this with Sapo, so I don't know how much she's read or if her views are different.

Short-version:

StefanB and Hyperion look scummiest. Lots of players look town. I think Feysal's slip was totally blown out of proportion, if that's the reason for his Choose wagon.

BBMolla looks town.

I wish players had clarified their interpretation of the Vote and Choices rather than jump into the Choose mechanic. Lots of early stuff is uninterpretable.

Feysal is correct in 39. EDIT: I'm surprised Tyrene (Tierce?) sticks to her statement here.

Feysal votes Starbuck for logical errors that I don't think make her any more likely to be scum (47). Scummy.

Dolorous Edd (hereafter, DE) reads scum into Feysal's logic, but not for the right reason. Feysal and DolorousEdd are not scum together.

She follows up on it, too.

Tyene contextualizes Dolorous's reading of Feysal's post isn a reasonable way (55).

It feels weird to see players continue RVS when major events have occurred (re: MoS, pappums rat). The latter does at least acknowledge new content, though.

From this point on I will interpret all Chooses as secondary votes, as that seems to be what the consensus has settled on.

RedFF's votes -- Starbuck and Feysal -- are strange because he's voting both sides of the conflict, which isn't where my mind has gone as I read. He cross-supplies DE's silly reasoning this time.

Starbuck's dense-ness in 71 almost has to be intentional. Starbuck strawmans her wagon in 75. Somehow I come away thinking she's likely town, though -- this is too much like asking for it to come from scum.

Tierce is town for the explanation to Starbuck (78). EDIT: Don't know why she gets upset with redFF when he does the exact same thing, though. O.o

Benmage is town; same page as me at 84.

Tierce is so town (91). I think DE is just as bad as RedFF, but that may be because I know that RedFF can be pretty abrasive, so I'm interpreting his tone as maybe more gentle than Tierce (i.e., who describes it as "chiding").

Regfan's entry post looks pretty good. Not sure why everyone has a town read on DE, though.

~~New Reading Set Starts Here~~

Staeg 104: Not sure why he has the town read on pappums.

Plessie 108: Contextualizes some players' town read on DE for me.

StefanB looks scummy, especially after Plessie just contextualized DE in the previous post. EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it's based on a misreading on his part. I think the Feysal wagon is bad, though, except for maybe Tierce. EDITEDIT: Really don't like that his response after being corrected by Regfan is a player-by-player analysis.

I like that Staeg is on the same page as me (117).

Lyanna posts lots of nothing AFAICT (123). Why are people voting Minimum? I don't see what the big deal is. EDIT: Then MoI asks for more Minimum votes (126).

I can already tell I'm not going to be thrilled with Shadow (135).

I'm happy MoI is on my side re: Feysal. I didn't know Mina was in this game... O.o EDIT: Looks like it's Minimum.

I'm surprised my predecessor has gotten so much attention. He's basically just random voted. Looking back, the Feysal wagon-joining was terrible, but it's still at a level I find surprising.

Plum's entry post is a good one, though I don't see why it's entailing the vote for Minimum. EDIT: MoS likes Plum.

Lyanna's explanation for Minimum suspicion (289) is again a lot of nothing (e.g., "every post has made me feel all twitchy").

Hyperion posts lots of nothing (298).

Feysal finally gives a scum case on Mina in 299 (i.e., "Mina is not obvtown").

Hyperion misrepresents MoI in 305, I think; IIRC, MoI said that construing Feysal's post as scummy was problematic-to-scummy.

MoS is not helpful and is not scumhunting (306). I don't know if this is par-for-the-course for Shadow, but this is not MoS.

Jal votes for DE, which...well, it makes sense to me, but it seems at odds with the normative PoV.

Disagree with SoO's reads, but at least his wall shows evidence of reading the thread critically (342).

Divided on Pandora's 342. Good critical reading, but RegFan isn't the target I would naturally gravitate to. I did find his Stefan read strange, too, though. Town overall.

I would guess that Shadow's play is par-for-the-course, but I feel like his mislynch wouldn't exactly be tragic. EDIT: I like his 402, though. StefanB revotes him right after it. -_-

Amrun replaces pappums. ^^

TOWN
Benmage
BBMolla
RegFan
Tierce (Tyene Sands)
Plessie
Staeg
Starbuck
RedFF
Plums Yo Mamma
Pandora

IDK
Shadow
Minimum
MoI
Feysal
DE
SnowStorm
hascow

SCUM
Lyanna
MoS
Hyperion
StefanB

[Plessiezarus]

This is part of a much longer proper Hydra post Plessiez and I have been working on, but

Pless is a terrible flake and Zar had to keep pestering him to do it

been fairly busy.

Obviously the mason-claim means SnowStorm is off the table today. We're not entirely convinced by it though. Think our earlier reasons for suspecting him are still pretty compelling, and they're only partly explained by the idea he was acting differently because of his Mason role. Doesn't seem impossible to us that Faraday would have given out a fake-claim like this (open question to anyone who's been in an Eddard Stark game: that's how fake-claims worked in past games, right?), so the "SnowStorm wouldn't have thought to fake claim Mason" defence doesn't seem that persuasive. But whatever -- presumably he'll die soon enough anyway.

Ignoring SnowStorm for now. We'll get back to you with our cases and our vote.

~Zar.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes. People are giving him shit for the same shit I've done this game.

The difference is people know you are always useless / scummy in every game. Like Katsuki.

Bvoigt actually can play the game in an effective manner.

[Dolorous Edd]

Please elaborte (or actually, keep it till day 2 if you want) why BB is town by page 17. Also, Lyanna becomes obv town, and Stefan is town as I mentioned a bit ago. And I become obv town somewhere (?), but that doesn't look coming from me, etc.

Where’s Tierce when you need her. She’s easily deceived.

But on a more serious note, you should prob ISO the top wagons on the vote and choose, to see where you should best place your vote, instead of painfully treading through the thread now.

Pedit: Obv intended at Sapo.

[Saporerint]

I put BB in the town column on gut from his page 1 jokeclaim post and have stuck with it without any hiccups. Looking through his iso, the only other moment I remember standing out is when he posted constructively about SS's flavor-spec (195), and SS's response to that made me reinterpret SS's original flavor-spec more favorably.

I'll try to marathon the rest of it tonight. I'll be back home from visiting my grandparents tomorrow evening, so I can definitely finish it by then at the very latest.

- Iecerint

[Feysal]

@

Feysal

- can you elaborate, in what posts greenknight seemed relaxed and townish? Are there thoughts or opinions they you like or agree with?

What I meant by him appearing relaxed and townish was about his general tone. Posts #628 and #784 are good examples where that initial reaction was quite strong. The latter where greenknight mentions points for and against bvoigt also looks genuine, and if bvoigt were to flip town it would reflect well on greenknight, since that feels like an odd thing to do if you are scum pushing a mislynch.

Feysal:

Since you didn't answer it, who do you want to shoot?

I had not read the latest page the last time I posted, so I did not read your question until later.

Starbuck. No question. She is my strongest scum read, and even if she somehow were town, she richly deserves having her head stuck on a pike for doing nothing all day.

I would also love to kill Delirious Edd for having the gall to both want me dead and telling me not to kill my strongest suspect, but unfortunately scum takes precedence.

You know, despite you pretty much doing the blindly slap choose on biggest wagon other then you, the question I asked was "Who out of the actually possible people do you want to vote and choose?" not "Just read the biggest wagons and vote them please."

Read again what you wrote there. Then slap your palm to your face after you see it. If you did not mean the largest wagons, who did you mean with possible people? Someone like kortul? No thanks, my first thought when reading about that supposed slip was that he had read Shadow in isolation and the context of the quote had escaped him.

As for the blanket dismissal of everyone choosing you, the majority of people on you are on you because they think you're scummy.

I have been speaking specifically of village idiots, lurkers and replacements, by which I have meant the voters up to Benmage.

The first point in the post you voted in is a theory disagreement.

How is a tell I saw a partner of mine get caught with a theory disagreement?

The second point was 'not wanting to choose scum', which considering she was choosing herself, is more theory disagreements.

I call it evidence of the absence of a town thought process.

The way you're not putting any effort to keep up with the game is scummy. It's like this is one big :effort: ball to you.

These words had me seething with rage. It is only because I recognize that you cannot know how wrong you are that I find it in my heart to forgive you, provided that I receive an apology when the game ends. I don't want to be accused of appealing to emotion on top of everything else so I will not explain now, but I will give you a hint. My last post in My Little Pony Mafia.

[Minimum]

MoS is not helpful and is not scumhunting (306). I don't know if this is par-for-the-course for Shadow, but this is not MoS.

It is.

Feysal, could you give me an overview of your reads?

[Dolorous Edd]

I would also love to kill Delirious Edd for having the gall to both want me dead and telling me not to kill my strongest suspect, but unfortunately scum takes precedence.

There is not "I" in "team" though? Yea I want you dead, because I think you're scummy. But if you are town, you don't have to throw away the game (and logically too, not just good sportsmanship, since you still win with the town).

I mean, I don't really mind you shooting Starbuck, she’s not that useful, etc, but I think she’s pretty obv town? Where as someone like Shadow is the same uselessness, but has a chance to hit scum...

Also, on a different note, I checked out Sala, and he seemed to replace out of a lot of his games (jumping down from something like 7 games to 2 games), so it’s really a null tell. Maybe he took my advice

[Minimum]

My Internet is down at home, and the coffee shop is closing now, so this is it from the less minimal half of Minimum for tonight.

We may possibly be up for a Shadow or DC flashwagon. Or we may not. Because I hate this game. I have no confident scum reads right now. There are the people I don't want to lynch (and unfortunately, a disproportionate segment of them are the strong players), and then there's a pool of mehs who occasionally say something sincere-ish or make an independent observation. Well, Shadow has some stuff that screams scum, but there are also a couple of things in his ISO that make me second-guess it.

(Also, I despise being mislynched/misvigged/misvoted, and even I...um...almost...prefer greenknight's claimed target to Feysal's. Well, assuming both are being truthful, anyway. I would have thought Feysal was stating an outlandish target just to scare people away from choosing him, but he's been consistently suspecting Starbuck.)

=========================================

Shadow, to continue our back and forth from Thursday...no. Let's recap:

-You immediately go, "Ladies and gentlemen, Minatown" after a big post of mine.

-I ask you why you found that post more townish than my others (since that immediately set off my buddying senses, and was curious to know why you were suddenly so convinced of my innocence beyond "post contains words").

-You go, "What? I never said that," and quoted an earlier post that said we're not lynching me today. Except...that quote wasn't even professing a town read on me in context.

-Yes, I played dumb for like one minute, by asking, "Why, are you saying you had a strong town read on us." But it was because I wanted an explanation for the contradiction.

Now you've changed it to "I never wanted to lynch you, but that post made you look slightly more town." But You've still never answered my question.

Why did that post suddenly make you think I was town in the first place?

Also, why did you provide a quote that in context meant you had a null read on me as a response to "Why did you find my post more townish than my others up to this point?" (Given that a couple of people are calling us the scummiest scum that ever scummed and did not suddenly see the light after that post, apparently my alignment wasn't that obvious.)

===========================================================
Questions for Saporerint:

-Can you decipher this for me? I'm having trouble parsing why Stefan is your top suspect based on this summary, even with Stefan's ISO in a separate tab as a cross-reference.

StefanB looks scummy, especially after Plessie just contextualized DE in the previous post. EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it's based on a misreading on his part. I think the Feysal wagon is bad, though, except for maybe Tierce. EDITEDIT: Really don't like that his response after being corrected by Regfan is a player-by-player analysis.

-Why did you jump immediately into Stars Aligned III and only provide the detailed page-by-page catch-up afterwards?

-Have you discussed this game at all with saporovirus? Do you know if she has any reads up to now?

-Have you ever played with Tammy before?

-Rate from 1-10 how emotional this game is making you. Any emotion--rage, excitement, fear.

[BBmolla]

Yes. People are giving him shit for the same shit I've done this game.

The difference is people know you are always useless / scummy in every game. Like Katsuki.

Bvoigt actually can play the game in an effective manner.

You're exactly the same way, the difference being you post walls no one reads.

[Benmage]

If you want Sala and don't want Bvoigt lynched, would you prefer Shadow over Bvoigt?

Would you rather lynch town or town?

Shadow town over bvoigt town or sala town... would you not?

[Saporerint]

-Can you decipher this for me? I'm having trouble parsing why Stefan is your top suspect based on this summary, even with Stefan's ISO in a separate tab as a cross-reference.

StefanB looks scummy, especially after Plessie just contextualized DE in the previous post. EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it's based on a misreading on his part. I think the Feysal wagon is bad, though, except for maybe Tierce. EDITEDIT: Really don't like that his response after being corrected by Regfan is a player-by-player analysis.

For that bit, my recollection is that Plessie cleared up some uneasiness I had about DE (DolorousEdd), and StefanB voted DE in the very next post (and joined the Feysal-Choose wagon). Because I knew I had had doubts about DE and Plessie's post had just had a strong effect on me, I think it showed StefanB's lack of engagement with the thread. After that, someone (I think RegFan) made a post showing why StefanB's reasoning against DE was mistaken/misconstrued. StefanB unvoted at this point and accepted the other player's account, but then followed up with a vapid player-by-player analysis that starts in the same post where DolorousEdd was unvoted (EDIT: posts 111, 112, 115, and 116).

If StefanB was really thinking critically about DB as scum, I think he would have had some kind of a reflection on Plessie's post somewhere. The PBPA that followed RegFan's correction seemed ad hoc (scummy) rather than an indication of scumhunting. I also disliked his joining the Feysal wagon. The best defense of these things I've seen so far is someone's suggestion (Staeg?) that it results from language issues, but I don't think it's that simple.

-Why did you jump immediately into Stars Aligned III and only provide the detailed page-by-page catch-up afterwards?

I went back to look at SAIII, and I don't really see what you're talking about. My page-by-page stuff starts 4 hours after I replaced in in that game. IIRC, before starting all I did was skim my predecessor's iso.

-Have you discussed this game at all with saporovirus? Do you know if she has any reads up to now?

Not beyond our role PM, no. She's posted a little in our hydra QT, but it was about the Choose mechanic. I don't know how much further she's read or if she has any reads yet.

-Have you ever played with Tammy before?

No.

-Rate from 1-10 how emotional this game is making you. Any emotion--rage, excitement, fear.

On scales out of 9, arousal is about a 2 (low) and hedonic valence is about a 3 (negative). I'm tired and kind of making myself trudge on through so that I can have meaningful commentary before deadline. I'm also feel guilty about hiding on the computer instead of socializing with my grandparents, and I had promised myself I'd get some dissertation project preparations done this weekend. <_<

[Saporerint]

EBWOP: -Iecerint

[Dolorous Edd]

If StefanB was really thinking critically about

DB

as scum,

Dragon Ball?

But you do make me want to re-check my Stefan read. I'll have a re-look. Prob tomorrow (game-time), since it's so close to deadline and I really don't think we can start another wagon like that.