NY 154: Return to Boring Town - Game Over

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

Mod

, is there a deadline?

I will likely be reading over the game and making a post later today.

[RedCoyote]

Guys, I started reading this. Although that first lynch was exquisite, I'm a little drunk right now, so I'm having trouble focusing on the game. I keep stopping after a post or two. Give me one more day and I'll have something for y'all.

[RedCoyote]

Posting to say I'm very pissed off that the Mod didn't have mcqueen dead in the OP. Like, really pissed off. Because that could've saved me a lot of time. I'm almost done. Reading over the last day now.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, for those that haven't played in a game where I have replaced, I like to do a gigantic post with all my notes on the game. Because I was confirmed town, I think this is even more necessary as my decisions need to be documented and not seen as random for my own sake.

I don't expect any of you to read through this. I will come to the conclusions at the end of the end of the post.

Spoiler: Wow, you must be a masochist to click this button

Umm, wtf? Are we really out of RVS that quick?

Yeah, really. Nice useless post.

Vote: Prescending

for being stupid.

This sounds opportunistic.

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MoI's post 57 reads town.

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So just town? Do you think VE is trying to get on town's side with that post?

I have a hard time reading this as neutral on the situation. Why do you feel the need to speak for VE?

DAMN MAFIA KILLED MoI!!!

What are you talking about...?

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viscera, nhammen and mcqueen should basically be considered confirmed town.

This is a good point. I basically agree with this. You too should get town points for the hammer. There's probably a scum between inte, McStab, and Toon.

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NO.

VE was voting me because of what I asked Empking about why VE seemed scummy. She figured i was going to junp on a VE wagon over prescending, which is BULLSHIT BECAUSE I SAID PRESCENDING MUST DIE. Nowhere did I say I was going to vote VE.

I feel like you're way over-the-top defensive here. And you trying to give yourself ALL CAPS credit for this lynch doesn't feel right. It smacks of, "don't look at me to be scum! I wanted Prescending dead! I cannot be scum!"

Do I have any honest scumreads? No. Empkings creditabillity dropped from town to null/scum now that youre vig.

Maybe you should get some, eh? This is a problem. But this reads as more anti-town than scummy. I don't see the scum motivation behind saying this.

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vote: Salamence

obvscum here

This is too light. I've caught you as scum before for active lurking, Toon, and I can do it again.

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mcqueen's post 128 and 135 are solid. He's come a long way from the first time I saw him play. This is leadership. This is getting the town focused. I really like it.

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MoI, I know you think this is a dumb post, but do you remember the person who posted it? Seriously could you see any scum being this stupid? Remember what you told me? Seriously a dumb post like this is something you expect from me.

This sort of WIFOM is all sorts of bad.

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FOS: PM

- That's the most pathetic rebuttal I've ever heard. (I'm half surprised it didn't end with "that's my opinion. You can't judge an opinion."

Lol, I loved this quote. Yeah, PM was definitely scummy after this page.

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MoI's post 154 seems reasonable and thoughtful. I can see how he's coming at the game, especially the case for the Arugula lynch.

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Just an FOS at this point, but Toogeloo's town read on Velazanth strikes me as very very strange. Possible buddying present also in his townreads (without being totally committed to them), and his lack of presence on the Prescending wagon strikes me as scummy.

But.......

Then I read over everything Salamence has been doing and I can't bring myself to change my vote.

This sounds kind of strange given Toog's flip. This kind of spreading the scumminess around without voting can be misconstrued, especially after the fact.

I never used the word hate, but considering every defense to every scumtell you've had has been "If I was scum I wouldn't do this" as opposed to explaining why you actually did it.

On the other hand, this is a good post.

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No.

Get your ass off Empking, he is one of the top "third party votes," per se, how I used that phrase in my other post. He's not even scummy, he's just being, well... Empking.

Ass off of him, now, or you have my vote. Any "third party votes" today will be gaining my vote. Stop derailing a very informative wagon.

Besides the Salamence20 wagon, only about 1 other wagon is legit, and not a "third party vote wagon." To be honest, I prefer everyone shut up with calling out "third party votes" scummy, and either engage in discussion about a legit wagon, or we can just bandwagon one of the legit wagons. I have no interest in reading long as hell posts, cough cough MagnaOfIllusion cough cough, who only end up making a dopey, shit vote.

The balls on this guy! Hard and fast. mcqueen is solidly town.

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The bolded was pretty clear. We have two flipped scum, one on the Presc wagon (IAI) and one off the wagon (Presc himself). If you think we only have one more scum left you can't seriously think that in a 17 person game both partners bussed the Godfather Day 1. If you think we have two scum left then the only way you can justify for a lynch on the wagon is if you have overwhelming evidence that the person there is scum. Because it's pretty ludicrous to suggest all three scum would bus a Godfather Day 1. Thus at worst we have a 1 / 1 split in a 4 Man hypo team.

This is a pretty solid point. I would tend to think the same thing.

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Im sorry i dont have the time to read your walls right now.

Let it be known i love your walls.

Goodness. Quit buddying, ffs.

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geez, stop soft threatening me and just vote. I don't like that attitude, you just keep pinching away at people and don't take a stand. If you want to see me being lynched, at least vote me

Eh, this is a pretty good post. Toon and Sal are vying for my top scumread, so this is pretty pertinent.

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Thats hardly a case. I dont think i would have enough steam for your wagon.

This is so scummy. Especially given the fact that you aren't voting (I checked). This puts you back up over Toon at this point.

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GAAAH just lynch sala already. If you THINK I should be lynched, you should VOTE me. YOU are at L-2, and likely to be lynched. The other wagons aren't getting steam. You just play too softly! Fight your lynch, provoke people, VOTE for someone! Even if you end up getting lynched, at least you know you've tried your best. If you don't even vote ME now (or anyone else for that matter) I doubt you'll last long in ANY game in this website. FIGHT for your life, being scum or town.

Another good Toon post in the same vein as 205.

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And another post that doesn't read as Toon addressing an actual scum suspect ...

Why would you care if Scum-Sala rolled over and died if you are Town?

I don't know what you're talking about here. He's banging the war drum. He's calling out Sal in these posts, imo. This is him saying why Sal is scum.

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At this point, really, I don't really care if Sala is town or scum (he is actually starting to lean town based on his last posts), but his attitude, man, his attitude... He just deserves the lynch for it, to teach him something and to see if he plays the next game better.

Oh, wow. Forget everything I just said above. All that leverage you earned from getting on Sal's case is completely thrown out the window with this post.

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MoI: if I had to choose a current wagon, i would choose rofl over empking. If i wanted a new wagon, i would go for TF, then PM.

Each time you make a post without voting you just look worse and worse.

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scum are more likely to

ignore

a wagon on scum (especially a scum power role), hoping it will go away.

Even in spite of the bias, this argument makes sense.

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This guy needs to die and when he flips scum me and empking are town

Stop this. This is ridiculous. Quit tying alignments to flips like this. Especially over small potatoes.

Me, Empking, ROFL

Im sure one is scum of this group, and i am voting the best canidate.

I'm literally flabbergasted at how scummy you sound. Why wouldn't you just say that there's scum between Emp and rofl?

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yes, I'm lurking

yes, you're scum.

What a horribly dull game this is becoming after such a promising start.

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@Salamence - Open 418, Venmar scumslipped by saying "I wasn't scum in that game like I am now".

He didn't die for that alone, but surely enough, he flipped scum. IMO scumslips work far better than most other so-called scumtells.

This is a reasonable post. We can all laugh about Sal's foot-in-mouth disease, but people still have to put their votes where their words are and lynch the fellow. So I appreciate this sort of calm, grounded arguments against him.

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But you claimed Vanilla? You just gave scum a reason to

NOT

target you, right?

Then you see stuff like this. Sal getting on PM is good. PM and Arugula are both terribly scummy.

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i am literally flabbergasted at the level of stupidity in this thread.

Lol, funny how we said the same thing at about the same time. It reminds me of the last long game I replaced into... and I swore to myself never again would I do it. Now look at me.

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No vote on Prescending Day One, in Post 174 he says two people are scummy and still refuses to vote for either, the early claim is totally unnecessary, his vote in post 330 is overjustification with no actual reasons outlined (not even a "sheeping MoI) and I don't see how it's possible to have just a "null" read on Rofl and Sal at this point.

I'm mostly feeling pretty good about your posts now. Which helps me because I'm pretty confident there's scum between you, inte, and Toon.

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Salamence, you are asking people for reads and not following up on any of it. It looks like you are fake scumhunting. Asking others for reads takes zero effort.

This is the first good post you've had all game. The reason I'm quoting it is because it's an excellent point against Sal.

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I'm sure it has before, there have been alot of mafia games played. Just because it "doesn't happen" doesn't mean ROFL is 100% conftown.

This post strikes me as though you're acknowledging it's very unlikely that rofl is scum, but you still want to lynch him anyways out of principle? If someone is very unlikely to be scum based on the game's events, then it's probably not a good idea to lynch them.

Leave alone the debate on whether or not rofl's hammer is scummy, if you grant that it's unlikely that scum would do what he did, then you're being deceitful here.

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Claim: Jailkeeper Target: MOI.

Hold the phones. Empking jailed MoI on N1 and I come into this game to see MoI being wagonned? I don't believe it...

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Put another way (in the words of Llamarble) – I’d be comfortable enough losing to the scum-team that did it if I’m wrong. Because it would require play that was so potentially damaging to scum’s wincon that the Risk / Reward is way too heavily slanted to Risk.

Mmhmm. Good point. This is the crux of the issue.

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Can we get off the claimed Jailkeeper and the guy who hammered the Godfather three pages into Day One and instead get on the prior-scummy, early-VT claiming, still pushing the lynch of Jailkeeper guy (PMysterious)?

I feel as though MoI-Empking is a huge town-town argument being egged on by scum like PM and potentially Sal (although Sal is definitely townier than PM). I could see Toon or Toog scum as well, but PM just SCREAMS scum, and it's a helluva lot less riskier to lynch a claimed VT (which, considering two scum are dead by Day Two, losing a VT is hardly a huge loss) than lynching a potential Jailkeeper.

This is a great post, and it's exactly what I'm thinking as well at the moment. MoI's handling of Emp's claim (given that we know Emp is telling the truth) is also very townie looking.

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On this note, read the first page. Prescending starts to be a dick, now read PM's post (the one after Arugula replies, "No," to Prescending). He doesn't even question the dickiness of Prescending, nor comment on it, he simply assumes Prescending actually brought us out of RVS, hence unvotes. This is just genuinely scummy.

You're town as well, mcqueen. Because this is what town do. MoI isn't getting lynched and PM looked very scummy here (as well as Toon and Sal, but I can't fault the town for going after PM here).

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Sal is just trying to look like he's super-hunter or something. Dude has 108 posts (2nd highest is MoI with 45), so he's probably hoping something he says will eventually stick or get a reaction.

Good point in favor of Sal scum.

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Mcqueen: 1. Why are you looking for the Vig? 2. Do you disbelieve VE?

Yeah, this was the first thing mcqueen said to give me pause about him. I'm interested in how he responds to this.

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actually the vig shot should still be on salemence or PM. they are both so anti-town that it dun matter if they die

a lynch should be someone who is actually scummy, tho, like arugula

This is a decent start, although fractured. Better than Toon by a mile.

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We're overthinking this WAY too much. Just vote for the obv. scum or derptown

These sort of focus-driven posts read as consistently town to me.

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I targeted ROFL last night (in an attempt to roleblock him). The Nhammen kill doesn't look like one scum-ROFL had motive to make (though then again Nhammen was one of the townier player meaning every scum had a motive to kill him.)

So both MoI and rofl (definitely rofl) should be given likely townie status at this point.

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Awful lot of IIoA talk here. Analysis on what PM’s Town alignment told you stat.

This is a solid point against mcqueen. I'm also displeased with his lack of attention to the game.

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We are not lynching Velazanth or Toon Fighter today. These two players are Town, for sure.

If we are lynching based on MoI's philosophy, the one where we have to lynch people not on the Godfather lynch, then Empking is the only option imo. On the Wagon, I could go for Arugula, Salamance, and possibly even MoI for concocting this plan to only lynch off the lynch.

Okay, given Toog's flip. I need to start taking his posts pretty seriously unless he outright claims his results at some point. This is clearly telling me that he investigated me and Toon and got town results on both of us. Until I hear otherwise, Toon is pretty much off the table as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not sure why he discounts McStab and inte here though, but that's pointless speculation.

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Thirdly, I have never been scum, so I can't really show proof, but I would hammer the godfather as scum if I knew the godfathers wagon wasn't going to be stopped. Like you said, maybe it would be a bad move, but as scum I would either try to make myself look town, make my buddies look town and be a sacrificial lamb, or both.

The whole feel of this comment is off. I'm getting a vibe like he's not-so-subtely saying that he's "never been scum" as a way of trying to psychologically leave something in the players' minds about his alignment.

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I am the town Cop. Night 1 I scanned Velazanth Innocent. Night 2 I scanned Toon Fighter innocent.

Good to know.

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this is confusing me, has anyone ever seen scum kill a partner? is that even possible?

:/

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It explains why MoI has been scrutinizing Arugula all of day 2. MoI's vote on McQueen just broke every single rule he has set (not voting on the prescending wagon, etc.)

This is actually a pretty good point.

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A Serial Killer wins when he is basically the solo survivor unless he is a highly modified version but given the odds are so astronomically small that Viscera claimed Vig Day 2 immediately as a Serial Killer there is really no point to the discussion ....

Right. I'm actually glad you said this because sometimes I need a little sense knocked into me. Especially when the game is rife with lunacy like this one is.

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One shot guys I made it count on N1.

Okay. With this claim it's clear you are not to be lynched either. Scum take top priority. By my count, this puts me, Toon, you, MoI, and rofl all in pretty safe standing. That's five players of the remaining nine. The four left are Sal, inte, mcqueen, and McStab.

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Under most rule sets (and I see nothing contradictory in Nocman’s) killing the Vig does not stop his Vig shot from going off so this is, as I say above, a curious argument to make.

Another good point. Sal is consistently made to look like a Mafia member with solid arguments against his posts.

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Empking is scum. Please hammer.

If he was a JK, he would of claimed earlier given my post about MoI.

He is lying.

The ease with which Sal consented to this lynch is noteworthy. He does indeed throw his votes around easily. Additionally, he has pretty consistently sided with Emp and Toog over MoI with regard to the D1 lynch. This complete flip from D2 is nonsensical. This is an opportunistic plea to off Emp, I think.

Inte, youre town. I am not scum with MoI.

You are town and so am I.

Now shut the fuck up and do something productive.

Calling inte town for any reason is complete hogwash. He may have a slight town read given how he replaced in, but this sort of buddying is par for the course when it comes to Sal.

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Add to this your super weak defense of your vote in #63, and you've actually convinced me Empking (that you're scum). I'm letting everyone know right now that I have intent to hammer. I'll let everyone get a post in, and unless someone can find me a good reason to not hammer, I'll lay it down.

This is all very reasonable. It's a carefully calculated move made in full disclosure. I really kind of want to see McStab's scum games though. I don't think I've ever seen him around despite the fact that he's been here quite a bit longer than I have.

If you weren't paying attention then you weren't scumhunting. If you weren't scumhunting you're either a burden to the town or a bonus to the scum. I don't want to leave either alive longer than necessary.

This is scummy though. Although admittedly I want to make this argument at times. Given Emp's role, I dislike this comment.

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you both have expressed intent to hammer Empking but have said you don’t want the day ended. Why? What more do you think will be generated by having him sit at L-1 if you think he is scum? Frankly most players seem checked out today at this stage and both of you dithering looks somewhat suspect IMO.

This. All day. I got the exact same vibe.

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VOTE: ROFL

A horrible, horrible vote given that Emp jailed rofl and that was now proven to be true. That's not even touching the rofl hammer of the Godfather either. And your post just on the end of the previous page that said Arugula was scum if Emp was town.

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on day two moi was quick to point to arugula as the only conceivable pres busser, but now that a viable arugula wagon could be formed he's making excuses and not placing a vote. noting for posterity.

This is a good point, but he's also being consistent in looking for scum off the Pres wagon (mcqueen vote notwithstanding, which I also granted was a good point against him).

Now, MoI's big song and dance about there being no additional scum on the Pres wagon seems very rational to me. That being said, he could just easily be saying that to get people to not look his direction. Nevertheless, I think it is valid that there is a scum off of Pres' wagon. Regardless of whether there are 3 or 4 mafia members.

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I would be for a VE lynch, to be frank. I thought about it alot and I just can't see a 1 shot vig using their only shot the first night against IaI; I'm far more inclined to think an SK got lucky and is trying to play it off as a conf. town player.

VE is a poor lynch anyway you slice it. rofl pointed this out. He cannot be scum. If he's SK, then he needs to be left for last anyways. He isn't though. Too much of a gambit, imo.

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velazanth if toog didn't get get an inno on you i would be tunneling right now

Useless comment that doesn't help the town at all.

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I'm mainly hesitant on this wagon because I think it's scum motivated. Don't get me wrong, Arugula could very well be scum, and I think lynching him is justifiable, but my number one suspect for scum right now is Sala, who's been pushing this wagon hard for a loooooonnnnggg time. If Arugula flips scum though, I think it clears Sala, this would've been the hardest multi-day bussing ever seen

Good point here. Especially after Arugula's flip, this reads town.

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incorrect. sala has said over and over he thinks arugula is scum, but he starts each day with a not-arugula vote. textbook distancing. the only reason he's voting arugula is because he's being brow beaten into it.

This is a good point as well though. I can see the connection.

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If ARU is town, lynch me for bad play.

The ultimate WIFOM. Would scum be so bold?

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Which is, to be frank, useless. If we mislynch three times, and assume three more scum NKs, we've likely lost the game (assuming there's four mafia) or at the very least are in the awkward spot of 1 Mafia 1 SK 2 Town.

You consistently bringing up the SK is anti-town. Any SK discussion is a distraction and unnecessary.

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Why do you have any sort of Town read on inte’s slot? I honestly don’t see a single post that reads Town at all in his ISO.

I very much agree with this.

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Mcqueen, Vanilla Townie, Killed Night 4

This is one of the most poor nightkills I have ever seen. Certain players would not have made this mistake. If MoI or rofl was scum, this would be a hell of a gambit to pull in an effort to possibly frame someone.

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VOTE: MoI

VOTE: MoI

One of these is scum.

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i don't like MoI's posts, so i voted to have him lynched
you've been just an idiot

Despite Sal's crap, I think you'd probably have been the most likely player to kill mcqueen. You replaced in. Of the remaining players, you'd probably have been most likely to make a poor move like that. This post also makes me question your judgment skills and, frankly, mental capacity.

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moi did you at any point breadcrumb your role?

I remember him mentioning multiple times that the setup looked unbalanced without a role like a BP. Occum's Razor? He's telling the truth. And there are probably four scum.

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Yeah, he’s dying today. Neither of these posts is in any way Town-oriented thinking.

First post – you don’t “like” my posts? Well that’s nice and empty. What specifically makes you think they are from Scum? You can't actually show scum intent in my play so we get this load of nothingness. Furthermore the “VIs can’t be scum” pass opinion used to label Sala Town comes from a perspective of someone who knows Sala isn’t scum (he’s not a partner).

Second post – funny then that you have no interest in pushing / lynching Rofl at all. Because you think he’s only made a single Pro-Town perspective post all game long. Yet no suspicion of him.

I agree 100% with this. Your argument with Emp notwithstanding (which I actually think you were mostly in the right on, just that I didn't care for how long and overplayed it ended up being), you've been remarkably calm to make it this far in the game, MoI.

Frankly 3 / 18 is too low a number of total scum for MS given that we know at least 1 is a Goon. 25% is pretty much the ‘rock bottom’ minimum and then you need a pretty strong Scum team. All 3 scum would have to be Power-roles for a 3-15 set-up to be balanced and viable.

Yep.

Rofl is scum. Yet you are asking him why he believes my claim. The same claim you believed when you unvoted my horribly bad wagon and immediately jumped on Sala.

This is also a great point. inte is totally squirming.

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P.S.

1. Hammering scum is not indicative of alignment.
2. Look on how badly he wanted Empking lynched.
3. Look on how he sheeped anyone and pushed for an Arugula lynch.

Those are more important than a supposed scumslip.

If you're wrong about inte, who is his buddy? Right now I'm looking at you and McStab pretty hard.

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Why is he scum? Seriously I get tired of this. No way in hell does scum quickhammer their fucking Godfather before said Godfather even had a chance to fake-claim and out the Cop. If you don't buy that I don't know what else to tell you Sala. Rofl's play may be terrible to you but he's not scum.

And it's only the 324897234897234 time you've had to tell him.

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1. i do not fucking inherent his play. fuck you sideways. there are multiple reason he may of not been able to post or read much.
2. chainsaw tu quoque fallacy
3. ok
4. it was a shit interaction. don't hide behind the playstyle barrier. your response was unnecessary and verbose with a bunch of fluff supporting it

I like how you've been a dud all game until someone gives you a little bit a pressure. All of a sudden you're mister badass. Lol, do you think you cursing at MoI and getting angry makes me more likely to believe you?

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Well, I'm with Inte on this one.

Yeah, I'll bet you are. Because you're his partner. That would totally explain the mcqueen nightkill too.

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well mcqueen did basically become conf. town from the Prescending lynch

dunno why he didn't do shit though

READ: You are trying to justify your mcqueen kill despite the fact that there were two actually confirmed townies to lynch. Wow, you do make this easy for me!

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Not changing my vote till I get a better reread and can make a big post. Im vt.

Not standing up for MoI here is sketchy. I still can't write you off as inte's partner. It's either you or Sal.

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I say we lynch you today, see you flip scum, and then watch your partner (either McStab who you completely ignore or Sala who you accuse of buddying softly but show no real interest in as scum) squirm as they are doomed via PoE.

This should've been done ages ago. What a rotten town you got yourself stuck in.

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Inte could might as well be scum, but today ROFL needs to die.

Trust me for a moment.

Oh, wow. Lol. This is the most obvious thing I've ever seen.

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So, with the four lynches that are viable being myself, inte, Sala or ROFL, and us having two chances to catch scum (today and then LyLo tomorrow if we're wrong) we ought to be trying to setup the optimal LyLo situation so that tomorrow we can't be blindsided by scum. With that in mind, I think that an inte lynch doesn't provide us nearly as much information as a ROFL or Sala lynch.

Doesn't provide information? Get out of here with that. You not voting inte is a joke, man. There's no possible way you could see him as that townie.

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OK...I've skimmed through the game and looked over all the wagons and here's where I'm at:

VOTE: MOI

Well, I've actually read the game, and I can tell you you are talking out of your ass, fitz.

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claiming doc prob would have gotten him lynched

Why didn't you lynch MoI here?

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Tl:dr

Still liking a Magna lynch. I need to look McStab over more closely. If Magna is scum I think McStab could be worth a closer look.

I almost stopped reading, but I'm glad you're putting some effort into it. I could understand there being another scum on the Pres wagon. I'm really thinking it's more likely to be Sal though given the fact MoI was jailed N1, MoI is potentially a BP (no one has countered him and it seems likely town needs a little more power against four scum), and mcqueen's shot makes very little sense from an MoI as scum. MoI could be trying to pull a fast one with that kill, but I really think it was just a poorly designed kill. MoI is very purposeful and very matter-of-fact. I have a very hard time seeing him consenting to a mcqueen kill.

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mcstab you've been on one town wagon because you've only voted three people all game (sala, pmyst, toogeloo) so your defense is horribly self-serving

Very much this.

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How's this for a good point....if moi's wagon consists of three ~confirmed town + Sal, even if Sal was scum (which you yourself do not believe) they would still have another player who could have dropped the hammer by now. The fact a hammer hasn't been dropped just adds to the potential that moi is scum.

This doesn't count. Vel was gone from the website, Toon is a joke of a player, and you haven't read the game closely enough, imo. The only rational players in this game are MoI, rofl, you, and McStab.

Now, to your second point, why wasn't MoI hammered. That I can't explain. I'm really at a loss on that point.

I think I can stop reading there. Especially since my mind was just blown. I skimmed over the last few pages. I was pretty much dead set to call this game in favor of inte & McStab (or possibly Sal), but now I'm having serious trouble with that.

Three things I want to get out of the way right now.

1. rofl is very much my top town read (outside of fitz and Toon). I will not be endorsing that lynch in any way, shape, or form. The jailing. The hammering of Pres. The general sync we've had over the course of the game. Story checks out with him.
   
   
   
2. The mcqueen kill was completely out of line. This strongly leads me to think that Sal's incompetence, McStab's absence, or inte's ignorance/arrogance had a hand in this kill. I really have a hard time accepting MoI having a hand in this kill. But we're faced with a recent third quandary...
   
   
   
3. MoI's wagon was not hammered by inte or McStab (or rofl, but I don't count him). Both McStab and inte were here. They both checked in and knew MoI was at L-1.

So, honestly, I'm inconclusive. I'm sure the remaining two scum are amidst Sal, inte, McStab, and MoI, but point 3 is an incredibly strong indicator to me. Further, MoI's having not participating much since then is really sketchy to me. What also complicates things is MoI having been jailed on N1. Anyways, I need to hear a little bit more before I make a decision.

rofl & fitz

, can y'all just respond to my second and third points in general, please? I value your opinions most above every other player in this game right now.

MoI

, why were you not lynched by either inte or McStab?

McStab

, could you rank the scum likeliness between Sal, MoI, and inte?

[RedCoyote]

i could see scum shying away from the moi hammer because of the (at least in their own head) strong likelihood that whoever hammered town-bulletproof-moi would be strung up immediately the following day.

I could see that too, but, I mean, it's not like they're exactly in the best of positions with all the confirmed town. Further, I suspect if they got rid of MoI, that's one less rational person around. Plus, it's not as if he was at L-1 for a few minutes. It lasted a long time, and it actually happened twice today!

Once was Toon, inte, Vel, and Sal (top of page 32; McStab did

not

hammer; it lasted 3 hours until MoI claimed)

The second time was Vel, fitz, Toon, and Sal (post 906; inte and McStab did

not

hammer; it lasted

3 days

until Sal unvoted)

Both of these things seem to put McStab as the most guilty party (assuming MoI is scum), followed by inte.

on the other hand though the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that moi is basically forced by burden of proficiency and his "has been killed night 1" title (i wonder if he regrets getting that in hindsight? i could see it becoming an argument against him as scum or used against him by scum more than just in this game) to claim something that explains why on god's green earth he's still alive in an endgame as tumultuous as this.

That's valid too. It was

very

strange that a player like Shattered Viewpoint was shot N1. It was kind of random. I could think of at least 5 better kills than that, MoI included. IAI would have known better at the very least. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that Shattered Viewpoint was a PR.

rofl, I've got to say, I think I'm really convincing myself MoI is scum here.

---

Inte was on the wagon at the time MoI was L-1. McStab attempted to create a counter-wagon at the time. I'm just not sure about him.

It happened twice, Sal. See above.

The fact that you don't think MoI killed McQueen is stupid. There aren't any references to him other than the MoI vote. And given that no one mentioned it, I am willing to bet MoI killed McQueen.

This argument is more one of meta than anything else. I've never played with you three, but from what I know of how MoI operates, that man would've had to really hold his nose to take part in killing mcqueen if only due to the sake of play propriety. The scum had two confirmed townies (three if you include fitz, but I know you wouldn't).

Further, I do see your point in the sense that mcqueen was unpredictable and had previously gotten on MoI's case big time. Because of that, it leads me to believe that MoI could've potentially seen that as a threat. Whereas he felt more confident he could've controlled Vel/Toon.

---

My bet is on MoI-McStab, but I wouldn't discar the other possibilities. However, I think our best lynch for today is McStab. Getting him lynched will pretty much confirm MoI as scum (or inte, as a worst case scenario. I don't believe in a McStab-Sala team). If he IS town, then I advocate we look at Sala next.

You know something, I think you may be right, Toon. I very much doubt Sal and McStab are aligned. We've got four players.

MoI-Sal
MoI-McStab
MoI-inte
Sal-McStab
Sal-inte
McStab-inte

The remaining scum are one of those groups. I'm willing to bet the game on that. Of those groups, I think we can eliminate Sal-McStab. McStab has so much been on Sal's case this game. I mean, from early D2 on. And I think it has been more than just distancing too. Because how can he be sure, say, on D2 or D3 that people wouldn't have gangpiled on Sal? It might have left him looking good, but to crazy bus your third scumpartner after losing two on D1? That's a tough pill to swallow.

The only problem is, I can still theoretically see a bunch of other connections. So, if we do this, I think we have to follow through based on the Pres lynch on D1 (and effectively eliminate one other pairing).

MoI and Sal were

on

the D1 lynch.
McStab and inte were

off

the D1 lynch.

If we lynch McStab, and he flips scum: We lynch MoI and hopefully win.
If we lynch McStab and he flips town: We lynch inte and say a prayer that the entire scumteam was not on the D1 wagon (which I think is fairly reasonable).

The only other problem I see with this is that I could theoretically see inte as a partner to either Sal or MoI. But I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

---

I have no idea why mcqueen was NK'd. I'm not even sure if I could come up with a reason that would equate to WIFOM. it made no sense to me.

Do you know much about MoI? I've seen him take gambits as town, but generally not as scum.

---

in wat way would my "ignorance/arrogance" lead to killing mcqueen?

You had replaced into this game. Plus you're headstrong. I could see it. And the second sentence you wrote just confirms my suspicions. You considered him confirmed town. Well, lol, hate to break it to you, but there were two townies that were

actually

confirmed by Toog. Plus fitz. So, really, in no way should mcqueen have taken priority over them in a vaccum.

Because of that, I think it's very important to analyze who would make that kill. mcqueen was killed because either the scum thought they couldn't control him as well as Vel/VE/Toon, or because they weren't good enough attention to the game.

---

Terribly sorry about that. I can't believe I missed that. Updating now.

Nah, it's okay. I'm over it. Apology accepted!

---

To answer his question, Sala is WAY over the other two, and then inte, and then MoI. If that looks like I'm defending MoI, then newsflash, I am. Both times he's been pushed to L-1 today have been the result of the shittiest votes ever, and they've been pushed by players who've led the town down countless mislynches.

The thing is, McStab, shitty votes they may or may not be, he still wasn't hammered. Not once, but twice. And we're not talking a few hours. We're talking days the man sat at L-1.

The scum had ample time to take that lynch. And we know for a fact that both scum were not on that wagon because Vel and Toon (and fitz) were riding it.

So you know what you're asking me to do, McStab? You're asking me to believe that the scum couldn't come up with a way to reasonably hammer a claimed BP over the course of 3 days, you, rofl, and inte all checking in during that time, as he sat at L-1. I just cannot buy that. Given the circumstances of this setup, that was the dream wagon for scum today (if MoI is town).

RedCoyote, I appeal to you to look closely at Sala's behaviour throughout this game, the Votecounts on each townlist, and his opportunistic jumps throughout today. Of particular to note is his L-1 vote on MoI WITHOUT A SINGLE WORD SAID. Or his sudden change from "ROFL Conf. scum" to ROFL town McStab/MoI scumteam. This is after MoI claims Bulletproof and I start attacking him.

He's lining up mislynches on his main attacker for NO valid reason and MoI, the claimed Bulletproof.

If I get lynched today as opposed to Sala, it's an outright travesty of justice.

This whole thing this strikes me as a desperate plea, especially that last line. I think what seals it for me is that last time MoI was at L-1. Scum could not have asked for a better situation than that. The could've ran roughshod over the rest of the game if townMoI was lynched there.

You yourself said it unlikely a Sala-McStab scum team exists. So if Sala is scum then I am town and vice versa according to you. If this is the case, attacking Sala (which I've been doing ALOT longer than when I was just under pressure, if you actually reread the game) does exonerate myself.

I see what you're doing here, McStab. Other than saving yourself, you want this situation because, should we lynch Sal and he flip scum, tomorrow you'll come back still defending MoI (and likely suggesting we lynch inte).

No, what we need to do is use two things, well, three things, to end this game:

• Accept that rofl is town (or that if he's scum he basically earned his win by playing well and being at the right place and the right time).
  
• Accept that McStab and Sal is the least likely possible scumteam (or that if they're scum together, they basically earned their win by playing well and keeping themselves distant enough to fool us).
  
• Lynch based on the D1 wagon results. (This essentially eliminates one final partnership. Either MoI-Sal or McStab-inte. I think we clearly eliminate MoI-Sal due to the fact that that would be putting every scum member on the Pres lynch D1.)

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

If we lynch McStab, and he flips scum: We lynch MoI and hopefully win.
If we lynch McStab, and he flips town: We lynch inte and say a prayer that the entire scumteam was not on the D1 wagon (which I think is fairly reasonable).

The only other problem I see with this is that I could theoretically see inte as a partner to either Sal or MoI. But I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

[RedCoyote]

rofl, I really think MoI being at L-1 so long seals it for me. I don't think he can make a valid argument in his defense either. There were three town on that wagon. The scum would've gotten rid of, arguably, the fiercest living town player. The day had played on long enough at that point. At that point Vel/VE weren't even paying attention to the game. Toon was sporadic as well. They could've ran with it going into D6. rofl, if you can reasonably tell me how scum could've gotten a more perfect lynch than that MoI wagon earlier today, then I will drop the issue. But anyway I slice it in my mind, there was just no reason for MoI not to have been hammered there if he was town.

Additionally, of the four remaining people I'm considering (Sal, MoI, inte, and McStab), Sal seems like the least likely to be scum. Despite his consistently bad play, I feel like his transparency and self-doubt are probably more likely to be coming from him as town than scum.

With inte and McStab, I'd learn toward McStab as scum, but it's more of a tossup with those two. And I do think the scumteam is 1 of MoI & Sal and 1 of McStab & inte.

So, after debating this in my mind and talking with everyone, my lynch preference is MoI > McStab > inte > Sal.

With that,

vote: MagnaOfIllusion

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: With inte and McStab, I'd

lean

toward McStab as scum, but it's more of a tossup with those two.

My keyboard has been acting up after I was beating on it the other night.

[RedCoyote]

What gambit are you referring to RC wrt MOI and mcqueen? I haven't ISOd mcqueen but I note that other than D2 he had no voting activity in MOIs direction. Too distant IMO to be connected to a N4 nk in favor of ~3 conf-townies.

I just mean that I don't know how likely it would've been that MoI would've executed that kill on mcqueen with the other confirmed townies out there. It would be taking a bold chance. Sure, as inte claims, mcqueen was thought of as pretty solidly town. But, I mean, he was mostly thought of as town for being on the Pres lynch. Hell, Sal, MoI, and rofl were all on that lynch as well.

Personally I thought mcqueen was in a pretty good position as I read through the game, but the fact remains that he was not confirmed. The scum were taking a risk to kill off mcqueen. My initial reaction to that was that the scum had to be not paying close enough attention to the game for that kill to go through. As I think more about it though, that sounds pretty far fetched. More likely he was purposefully killed because the scum was worried he would come after one or both of them. Of the remaining players, who would you say mcqueen's most likely target would be? Let me show you a few snippets from mcqueen. You tell me who should feel most threatened by him:

I have no interest in reading long as hell posts, cough cough MagnaOfIllusion cough cough, who only end up making a dopey, shit vote.

@MagnaOfIllusion - No.

VOTE: MagnaOfIllusion

And, for fucks sake MagnaOfIllusion, I'm not reading 1 fucking more of your endless wall posts. Yea, ok, I made 4 or 5 posts here, but even if you connect them, they are like one fourth as long as one of your posts.

Ok, I had the thought of Salamence20, Empking, and roflcopter being town. To be honest, none are very scummy

P-Edit - Salamence20 is town. Since you switched to Arugula, not VE, I assume you're on the same page as me, therefore bumping my read of you up a bit. I honestly just wanted to lynch you for information, but I don't think that's required anymore.

MagnaofIllusion, why shouldn't he answer it? What problem do you have with questioning someone's play? Especially when it's not you being questioned, nor the one questioning?

They get into another argument in post 604 & 607.

Bottom line, they were never very close to one another throughout the game. mcqueen was on record as liking both Sal & rofl for town as well.

[RedCoyote]

I do not feel bad if you're town, MoI. I asked for your input. I talked it over with everyone else. You are the most logical pick here. If you were in my shoes, you would've done the same thing.

You not taking this opportunity to steer us toward your scumreads tells me that we made the right call. Enjoy your time in the Dead QT, scum.

[RedCoyote]

Well done, town. I would've definitely hammered McStab as well. Amazing how I came into this game thinking MoI was just being strung up by people that weren't taking the game seriously. I really enjoyed this. I just replaced in as a fluke. I knew the Mod was a good guy and I had never replaced in on a Day 5 before. I think both MoI and McStab put a great deal of effort into this up to the very end. MoI probably was lurking as a strategy, and I can appreciate that. Really what did it were the wagons for me. If not for them, I wouldn't have suspected MoI nearly as much. So props to the people who made that happen. I think most of the players did a fine job with the exception of PM. Would've liked to have seen more from Toon, Vel, VE, and Arugula throughout. A lot less from Sal, lol. But I do appreciate how open minded and energetic you are, Sal. I think those are good traits to have. I would work on how susceptible you are to using buddying and being kind of long-winded though. Anyways, gg all.