A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Minimum]

You're that suicidal, Tammy?

Vote: BBmolla

Choose: MagnaofIllusion

[Minimum]

I'm not Tammy, Minimum, I'm Tierce. Tammy = Lyanna.

We'll see.

Choosing should be policy lynch central since I can easily imagine choosing scum and giving that scumbag a strongman vig being worse for the town than taking out 2 townies that would otherwise get mislynched or screw up in some other way.

[Minimum]

Unvote, vote: Starbuck

[Minimum]

Vote: MoI

for loving all the same fandoms that I do.


I'm a little surprised at the quick Chooses right out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads.

What's the difference between a choose before you can get any reads and a vote before you can get any reads?

@Edd: because a scum vig will choose someone who is either obviously town, a likely power role, or the biggest threat to them...and unlike a normal nightkill, there's no chance of interfering with it. As long as the player we choose is someone the scum would probably not want to nightkill, we still come out ahead to choosing scum. (Why not just lynch or vig the obvscum target we'd have chosen instead?)

But since the ideal choose target should be both someone everyone wants dead and town, both a good policy lynch and also likely to make a good vig choice, the whole thing is something of a paradox.

Or alternately, just choose MagnaofIllusion.

[Minimum]

Benmage, you should probably learn to tell me and CES apart soon, or this game will get confusing for you. I'm pretty sure I know why he voted her even though he hasn't told me, though.

Why do you find that vote particularly interesting?

Vote: MoI

for loving all the same fandoms that I do.


I'm a little surprised at the quick Chooses right out the gate before you can even get a bead on reads.

VOTE: D Edd

Choose: MoI

That's all for the moment.

After how long you've been looking forward to this game, you're totally okay with dying on D1? Not going to argue with the meanies ganging up on you?

(Likewise for Benmage, except strike the meanies part.)

[Minimum]

After how long you've been looking forward to this game, you're totally okay with dying on D1? Not going to argue with the meanies ganging up on you?

(Likewise for Benmage, except strike the meanies part.)

VOTE: Minimum

Why so worried?

It's because I'm terrified that if you're chosen today, you'll vig scum and weaken my team. Because I'm incapable of moving my own vote off you right now, so all I can do is discourage other people (such as yourself) from placing one.

Or, you know, because your self-vote is odd and I want to know your motivations behind placing it.

[Minimum]

Unvote, vote: Snowstorm

[Minimum]

Minimum: You wanted to use chosing as PL, so why chose MOI, definitly not a PL, where I came from? (That was before the selfvote, so why????)

Let's just say we disagree on that and move on.

Have an eye (or four) on Minimum (this is mostly/entirely CES posting at the moment, yes?) as well.

Entirely me.

Who made the first post in this game?

Mina.

Yet when I actually agree with him that I’m a good choice and Chose myself suddenly he 180s

Thinking you're a good choice doesn't mean expecting you to agree with me on that (and in fact I'm fairly sure you disagree with most of my reasoning).

Also, I just had a flash of what their qt would look like as they decided the vig shot, if town, and was sent into gigglefits.

<-- is totes superdecisive

Unvote, vote: Salamence20

[Minimum]

Well, generally, I'd say self-choosing is about the same thing as self-voting - there's no legitimate motivation to do it as either alignment but obviously it happens anyway and it tends to be a town tell for newbies and a scum tell for newbies. MoI's reasoning seems okay though.

[Minimum]

Benmage?

[Minimum]

Why did you vote Starbuck?

Bandwagonning, duh.

[Minimum]

Unvote, vote: Snowstorm

*peer*... so why here CES?

Starbuck looked townish, so I figured I'd slap a third vote on Snowstorm instead.

Ignore the flavour, snowstorm. (Also, it's implied the mission to kill Jon Snow will fail anyway.)

[Minimum]

To set the record straight Stephan – CES does not like my playstyle and thus I’m a viable Policylynch for him simply because I’m to ‘wordy’.

I genuinely am clueless as to how to respond to this level of wrongness in any terms but these. Mindbogglingly wrong.

In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards)

Correct vigging policy is to shoot someone considered to be suspicious so that at worst you take away one of the town's mislynches - this doesn't require much in the way of competency.

Where did your vote come from, I don't remember you mentioning me in any of your posts.

Same reason as molla, basically.

[Minimum]

Unchoose, choose: redff

P.S. Zar, is all your scum meta on me that one Westeros game?

[Minimum]

Why did you ask me that question if you're just going to drop it after, Tammy?

Do you ever explain your Sala scum read? Before you say ISO...I did. I haven't found anything damning or non-Sala like.

You should try ISOing him again and reading more slowly this time (noting e.g. his use of italics).

[Minimum]

Do you mean who was the first post? Because the answer was enough for me. And that meant that most likely, your entrance into the game was your Starbuck vote, which would be a null tell as the Starbuck wagon was equal with the MoI wagon if my count is right. If the entrance to the game was you and not Mina (I'm assuming I'm talking to CES right now) then that would be weird, right? Because the vote was for BBMolla when the biggest wagon at the time was MoI.

Voting for MoI while also choosing him seemed a bit silly. Did the fact that I was directly contradicting the previous line not tip you off that my answer wasn't entirely serious?

[Minimum]

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke. I took into account the fact that whoever posted first chose MoI and he was the largest wagon into account, but you? Also asked why I was suiciding in your first post and seemed to not believe tierce when she cleared up the alts. Both of those things lent belief to that being Mina last night. I still don't understand the suicide question.

But talk more!

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight. How did the Tierce interaction suggest it was Mina?

Right, talking. Salamence's #56 really is implausibly over-the-top and him hounding people over why they're suspicious of him is weird; neither of those match what I saw of him in the last game (in which I correctly pegged him as town). I'm not really sure why people think snowstorm is town based on bringing up something weird considering the reasons for the early suspicion against him and the early-game nature of what he posted.

I find arguing with -mum to be tedious and avoidable whenever possible.

You're mean.

[Minimum]

In hindsight probably nothing. I'm not sure why I read "we'll see" as particularly Mina-ish, but I did. What were you meaning then?

Are you saying you have a scum read on snowstorm then? If you do, why aren't you pushing it? (I don't have any read on him as he hasn't given me enough to go on yet so would be interested in why you do.)

"We'll see" just meant pretty much what it says, i.e. "We'll find out if you really aren't Tammy in due time."

I do have a weak scum read on snow but I haven't really seen much reason to push it.

[Minimum]

It's just Quilford-Shadoweh. Canadians aren't very good at anonymity.

[Minimum]

Okay. So, you thought that Tierce and I were playing let's switch and see who notices?

But, wait, you haven't seen much reason to push it or mention it before this. The only interaction you had with him was to tell him not to get too caught up in the flavor. Why didn't you try to interact with him to get a read on him?

It was more me being generically contrarian. I totally would've been jokingly implying that if I had thought of it though.

I'm lazy and I don't particularly think it's a big deal?

[Minimum]

I knew I was forgetting something: that meta is definitely going to be misleading, Zar.

P-edit:

Last post of the Night - Minimum is bascially playing the "Ignore all the votes on me and reasons for them and they will go away as other people derp in thread". I'm not about to let that happen given their scumminess.I'm not about to let that happen given their scumminess.

I'm definitely ignoring you as much as possible.

[Minimum]

This is Mina, and I've skimmed the thread on my phone during my breaks, but didn't have enough time to post before. But before I catch up more thoroughly, here's an answer to a few points and questions directed at us

in which I am the model of reasonable and composed and pretend not to hate you all as much as I do

:

1) The only posts I've written this game were this, this, and this. (Fun fact, though, Tammy--I was actually going to make my first post a vote for BBmolla, since we'd agreed to choose MagnaofIllusion, but CES ninja'd me after I spoke to him about it on AIM.)

Feysal, which posts did you think were me, out of curiosity?

2) I don't think we've written anything that couldn't have been faked as scum up to this point, so I don't object to the fact that people suspect us. (It's my own fault to an extent for being lazy and not posting before I went to bed last night.) However, let it be said that if you suspect me because "asking MoI why he self-Chose was soooo scummy!" (not because you thought it was a waste of a question, but because MoI was so obviously towwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn for daring to self-Choose with no explanation), then you are

dumb

.

To amend something CES said before, town actually has more of a motivation to choose themselves than to self-vote--Starbuck's self-Choose looked really genuine, for example. However, 1) scum under suspicion have the same motivation to self-Choose, and 2) MoI's self-Choose came out of nowhere. I saw several possible motivations for it as scum

or

as town, a major one being that it was an obvious attempt to gain town cred (I know he's self-voted as a SK before as a clumsy AtE). (I found Benmage's self-Choose less suspicious since "I'll singlehandedly take out the scum!" arrogance is in character for him, but didn't see the harm in asking him while I was at it.) And you definitely get no town cred

whatsoever

by self-Choosing, and then immediately going, "You're scum for asking why I did it, because I'm obviously confirmed town for self-Choosing."

And I know MagnaofIllusion tends to use selective reading comprehension, but the sarcasm in my response was obviously not "cheeky scumbag"...if I was "afraid" that his choosing himself meant I , I could have fucking moved my Choose off him.

3) Regfan, I assume you were just trying to find a concrete reason to explain a gut read, but how many town reads did you expect us to announce on page two? I had maybe a couple of really weak ones at the point which didn't overlap with CES's, anyway (for example, I thought Edd's entrance looked like overeager town; CES countered that Ser-Arthur is always overeager), but why would I even bother sharing them before they solidified? It would completely undermine any pressure someone might have placed on them, and tell people what the "right" opinions to have are.

I could write a perfunctory big post of reads that would probably would be 5% more accurate than one generated by random.org, but I'll be honest--it would pretty much be a "Look, guys, I really am town! Here, look at these independent thoughts I have. No, really. I'm town. Could you unvote me, now?

Please

?" post. This early in the game, I think questions are more useful than answers.

4) When the game has been open twenty-four hours, it's too early to base Choose or suggested vig targets based on who's not getting lynched today. (For example, I'd wager there's a very low chance that Minimum will actually get lynched today

although it'll involve me failing my French test on Thursday

--I start off a bit awkward sometimes, but my alignment generally shines through once I get into the game.)

5) Benmage, I don't have a particularly high opinion of my scumhunting, but I'd trust myself with a vig a lot more than I'd trust you. Speaking of which, you never explained why you were so interested in Minimum's vote for Starbuck (and then for Snow Storm).

[Minimum]

EBWOP: but the sarcasm in my response was obviously not "cheeky scumbag"...if I was "afraid" that his choosing himself meant

he'd vig me or a scumbuddy tonight

, I could have fucking moved my Choose off him.

[Minimum]

Salamence, do you believe that unexplained votes are scummy? Why are you so interested in BBmolla's and our votes on you--particularly when BBmolla has since unvoted and changed his mind?

CES's reasons when I asked were literally:

-You look scummy.
-You looked better in the game he'd played with you before.

If you want my reasons for being fine with the vote on you, it's because you don't look as town as most of the people in this thread, you seem very concerned with your appearance, you haven't voiced many independent or insightful thoughts, your voting has been too safe (for example, sheeping MoI's vote on us in the same post that you choose MoI--the leading Choose wagon at the time--felt very dissonant), and your argument against Feysal sheepy. (Upon an ISO, your one big catch-up post that made BBmolla trust you was decent in isolation, but the kind of content that's easy to fake, so I'm not letting you off the hook yet.)

Out of curiosity, how could BBmolla's vote be an OMGUS when it came before you voted/attacked him?

[Minimum]

EBWOP: oh, I just noticed that CES explained it here. Considering you're voting us, Salamence, shouldn't you be paying more attention to our posts?

MoS, thoughts on the rest of Tierce's play, or are you only voting for her based on that one post? (For the record, there's one thing I hate about that Tierce post, but you, first.)

(Tammy, I'm pretty sure Shadow was arguing that I would eventually look town given time, not that he had a town read on me because of that quote.)

[Minimum]

How does SS know about Mina and CES, he's been around three days but he's implied he played with Mina before? ("The idea I have of Mina's town play is that I usually agree with her")

Snowstorm is one of the Westeros regulars.

Regfan, you really should have a town read on me by now. Don't be uncool.

[Minimum]

On my phone and can only check in intermittently for the next couple of days, but just a few questions:

Tierce, why did you vote to Choose us in the same post that you said we were a bad lynch? Yes, we'd be a better Choose than lynch, but you haven't mentioned a single negative thing about our slot until we became the leading lynch.

BBmolla, what changed from saying you can't read CES so he's a bad D1 lynch to jumping on the wagon?

Feysal, do you think that Tierce disagreeing on proper Choose theory is an alignment tell, and why? Also, thoughts on Starbuck's VT claim and self-Choose? I'm not particularly interested in whether you scum-slipped, but I feel like you've been attacking people for differences in Mafia theory instead of for behaviour that's scum-motivated.

Stefan...yes, I agreed with CES that MagnaofIllusion deserved our choose. I think it will end very, very badly if we continue this. Just accept that it's a null tell and move on.

[Minimum]

CES, I don't find anything in your posts even slightly town, convince me I'm wrong?

I'm being far too lazy to be scum.

And again, the point is, that CES and I haven't even played a full game together, just Lylo, so I don't think that is enough for CES to get suspicious.

Am I wrong?

Yes. Why is it impossible for me to quickly grasp some salient details of your playstyle (there are quite a few things I probably can't realistically know, but that's not the same)?

The meta argument does absolutely nothing for me without you elaborating. I could say "My meta on people posting the way Edd does makes me think he's scum" and it means absolutely nothing. I can't give weight to you saying that his meta resembles his town play because of that.

You should learn to sheep. It's a very useful skill.

Stefan, you're being silly if you think I would make something like that up. And it should be fairly obvious that for me to explain why I think someone's a good policy lynch, I'm going to have to be somewhat negative? It's not going to consist of constructive criticism of MoI's playstyle.

[Minimum]

PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?

Yeah, Reck is pretty uncool (it should be fairly obvious this tell isn't supposed to apply to everyone?). And the WoT thing was me being overwhelmed, not lazy.

[Minimum]

Overwhelmed by the pace.

[Minimum]

(I don't think it's necessary for me to sign this post.)

Mastermind of Sin

, I explained what bothered me about Tierce already. Look up my answer yourself. Since I only mentioned one issue, you can enlighten us on the others (as can Cow, while he's at it). However, that was pretty much the

only

thing that bothered me about Tierce--the rest of her play felt very protown. I can buy her explanation, so you voting and choosing her solely because Cow said he didn't like that post looks lazy and disingenuous.

I thought this was pretty obvious. Then again, not that surprising that Tammy can't understand basic implications when she's trying really hard to paint someone as scummy.

Are you saying you have a scum read on Tammy? Do you believe that one quote in which she misinterpreted the word overwhelmed (which was a characterization of his play in a

completely different game

) is even remotely alignment-relevant?

StefanB

, I never said that I was obvtown

now

. (CES might have, but I think 25% of what he posts in a Mafia game is for his own amusement. <_<) I'm only confident that I won't be lynched today because I've been wagoned many times as town on D1 for making an awkward first post, and the wagon

always

, without exception, completely dies out by the end of the day.

(By the way, Tammy, you could at least have the courtesy to pretend that you're so paranoid of me because I'm a master of manipulation or something, rather than "Mina is easy to read, but her posts up to now have still been alignment-null." )

MagnaofIllusion

, are you setting me up to go, "Yes, sheeping is scummy!" only for you to go, "Haha! You scummy scumbag,

CES

just admitted to having sheeped Regfan!" (Actually, I don't remember if he'd admitted to it in the thread, but anyway.) It seems like multiple players in this game are bold-facedly admitting to not reading the thread and just sheeping whatever case the first player who looks town makes (which I find not so much scummy as antitown, although my other half would disagree with me). I think something like a

meta

read is worth sheeping if multiple people say, "Yes, this player is acting in character with his town self," because if you've never witnessed it. But yes, consistently voting for whichever players are getting heat at the moment is something of a scumtell, because there's a common breed of scumbag who's always looking for an anonymous place to park his vote.

As for your theory (which actually didn't occur to me at the time)...all right, let's check.

Salamence

, what was your motivation was for 1) voting Minimum, and 2) Choosing MagnaofIllusion in your first post of the game? While you're at it, you also didn't answer most of the questions I asked here.

Well for someone who accuses me of ‘selective reading’ this is pretty interesting interpretation of my response to you. Please by all means link to ANY post I’ve made this game that indicates directly that I have claimed to be Confirmed Town.

Fine, I just ISO'd you, and that was hyperbole--you never claimed to be confirmed town. You

did

imply that my questioning why you self-Chose was suspect, as though I should have realized you were town. For example, here and here.

Believe it or not, I asked you why you self-Chose

because I wanted to know why you self-Chose

. I wasn't convinced it was a scumtell by any means. It might have been an emo "everyone hates me!" self-Choose. It might have been reaction-fishing. It might have been an attempt to diffuse the momentum against you by doing something to win town cred. I thought it seemed out of character given how much you'd have looked forward to this game (and also given that I'd expect you to be too proud to acquiesce to people calling you a "policy lynch"), so I pressed you on it. How exactly could an explanation from you hurt?

More coming, but I'm saving it for another post. (Also, I've still got no studying done whatsoever for my French test this evening.)

[Minimum]

(p-edit: Regfan, hold your horses. I've been working on a post with just that, but wanted to do some studying first. That said, I suspect that my question to Mastermind of Sin will be a lot more useful (well, to

me

, anyway) than yet another wall full of my wishy-washy and probably incorrect thoughts.)

Thanks, Tammy! Except I just looked at some sample questions, and I'm completely fucked--especially since I might need an 80% (depending on which department guidelines are lying to me). Why the fuck do I need to know what "arrhes" means to get by in a math program?

=========================================================================

Anyway, where I'm at:

I don't have a problem with all the attention being focused on the three S's (Salamence20, Snow_Storm, and to a lesser extent Shadow). Already explained my problems with

Salamence

. Although I generally find

Snow_Storm

hard to read (and was previously lukewarm on him), but Tammyanna's points on him (that he has no scum reads, and that his vote on Benmage is super-dissonant) are very strong.

I buy

Shadow

's stance on me, and it makes me sad to turn on him when he's the only one white-knighting me (I could appreciate some buddying right now), but I find Shadow's early play here more similar to AFFC (where he was contrarian and petty in a conscious effort to mimic his town meta) than to ASoS and GvE (where he got tetchy at points, but was full of adorable protown eagerness). My scumread of him waned somewhat when he discussed his beliefs about D1 theory, but those could be genuine regardless of alignment. I also don't remember him being a hardline anti-D1 contributor before. That said, I'm willing to give him some time to see if he delivers on his promise to contribute later. Shadow's alignment will become apparent with time.

(As an aside, Regfan, this is why I don't think total transparency is always ideal--I read your post defending Shadow, and to some extent, it influenced me to go, "Oh, gee, maybe Shadow isn't that scummy after all." Imagine if you'd caught me making a bad frame case on Shadow or something.)

Completely disagree with Regfan saying that

sword_of_omens

saying "WE kill scum" is a town tell. His opening post and the reads he espoused in it were pretty bad, although I need more from him.

bvoigt

, you're right--that catch-up post

did

suck, for a number of reasons (and

not

because it was short). Already complained about

Mastermind of Sin

's Tierce vote; I hate that he consistently uses his laziness as a shield in game after game. What makes me lean scum on him is that when he has contributed this game, he chooses completely tangential points to focus on (like the terrible Tammy thing).

redFF

could easily be scum, I guess. (CES chose him in part on policy and in part for a lack of scumhunting.)

Tammy Stark

is capital-T town.

Regfan

and to a lesser extent

Tierce Sand

look very town too.

Pandora

is probtown pending me changing my mind on a reread, because I've sort of skimmed their posts.

Plessiezarus

is leaning town ("leaning" mostly because Pless hasn't crossed the threshold into "town without a doubt" like he has in the games I've seen him in before); I find Zar tends to look more...oily as scum, and I buy the glimpses into their hydra discussions.

Staeg

is probably town simply because he's not obvscum and hopping mindlessly from wagon to wagon--he's actually putting some thought into his votes and stances. When I ISO'd

MagnaofIllusion

, I was surprised to find that he looked a lot more town than I thought he would.

I'm not willing to confidently call

BBmolla

town (his play is sloppy--his vote and sudden unvote for us when we called him on it was weird--and I think he's capable of faking reaction tests as scum), but I did get town vibes from his reaction to Snow_Storm and Salamence.

Liked

Edd

's earlier posts, didn't like his attack on Starbuck, and have kind of skimmed over his later posts, so it's tempting to take the Westeros crew's word that he's playing like town Arthur (I don't think I'm as familiar with Ser-Arthur's meta as everyone else is). I don't think I can read

Hyperion

at all, because he's usually a lynchbait player. I know he was obviously scummy and wishy-washy and flagrantly lurked when he was scum and I replaced him on Westeros. I need to ISO both of them.

I don't remember

Cow

being this overconfident and prone to exaggeration when I've seen him play before, but the bravado has an obvious town motivation even if it's faked. More likely town than scum, but I'm not as certain of it as everyone else is (maybe because I dislike most of his reads, and he acts as though he's convinced that every single player he suspects within the first few pages is obvious confirmed scum).

Plum

is totally null for me. It would shock me if there were only 0-1 scum on my wagon, so I could see Plum being competent scum, I guess.

Will get back to you on

Benmage

, since CES seems confident in his ability to read him. His initial drunken posting was terrible, but he's shown glimpses of Bossy Wannabe Leader Town Benmage with his lists of town and scum. I'm feeling a lot better about

Feysal

after that big post he wrote than I did before.

Have a weak town read on

StefanB

and a super-weak one on

Jal

based mostly on the tone of some of their posts.

Oh, and

Starbuck

is probably town. I think that's it for the people who have actually

posted

.

[Minimum]

Eh, Plum, to be honest, I'm not following your train of thought, but it seems as though you're overrating just how important the self-Choose was to me. The game had just started. I was reacting to anything recent that happened, and I thought MoI's self-Choose was off (for reasons I've explained, over and over and

over

again). Then I left the thread for the next twenty-four hours.

I've only continued discussing the self-Choose because multiple people keep bringing it up and implying that it's absurd that I could entertain the notion that MoI's self-Choose wasn't pure of heart.

I mean...it's kind of hard to have an opinion on something as small as that stronger than "he's neither obvscum nor obvtown for it." It's not completely absurd that he wanted to have a N1 vig so his death would be meaningful (or that he's innocent even if it was a calculated attempt to milk it for town cred, because that's totally in character for him).

(Also, the realization that I didn't find MoI that suspicious in context only came after all the self-Choose discussion.)

Nacho-Plum are no longer null, though.

Now I'm going to bed.

[Minimum]

Nah, Pless. People can draw their own conclusions on Plum.

FWIW, sword_of_omens actually impressed me as a player when I first played with him--he caught me in an embarrassing scum slip. No clue if he's just become lazier in general, though.

Also, multiple people have been declaring Cow town (in part because of his vote on me, though :eyeroll:).

Since his stance isn't implausible, I'm willing to give Shadow some time to develop actual opinions on this game.

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

[Minimum]

Whee, I'm seeing

Wicked

tonight! (It's pretty easy to guess whether this is Mina or CES based on who would be excited by this and who wouldn't be caught dead in the theatre.) So just a couple of quick points before I go:

1) Um...guys? Why are you

Choosing

Shadow? He's either 1) scum, or 2) seriously going to shoot one of Cow/MoI based on "them having fooled him before." He should not be let anywhere near a gun.

(Actually, I missed that post before--as well as the fact that his vote is on MoI

only

because he's misread MoI before, and thinks that's legitimate at this point in the game. I haven't liked his interactions with Plumamma on this page. Also, it just occurred to me Regfan's reasons for trusting him were terrible; they were literally, "Shadow can't be scum, because scum never argue hard against someone's lynch!" Changed my mind. I'll give Shadow

a few more RL days

to look like Innocent Shadow--even if he thinks no one will listen to his precious cases, that doesn't stop him from making them.)

2) Since people keep bugging me about it...my "null" read was changed to slight town, because although I found the argument itself nitpicky, her thought process and her reference to discussions with Nacho looked real. (I find I usually dislike Plum's cases--not so much that she suspects the wrong people, just that her reasons for suspecting whom she does always seem alien to me). But I wasn't confident on it, and didn't really want to give her a gold star immediately after she'd posted words. Just calling her town for posting a fairly generic post would be making her feel comfortable for no reason. And I don't know, I was kind of hoping it might provoke some reaction from the slot.

By the way, who has made the hydra's most recent posts? (p-edit: nevermind, Jal asked first.)

3) mockingjaye, you've mentioned quite a few things you dislike that people have said, but do you have any concrete reads? Also, why are you not voting for or choosing anyone? (I feel like most of your points against our slot are not tied to alignment--for example, there is no contradiction whatsoever between saying "Salamence's post doesn't clear him" and "Nothing we've posted, so therefore I don't particularly object to being suspected.") For the record, I liked Starbuck's self-Choose mostly just because the tone of her posts felt like a beleaguered townie under pressure who thought she was sacrificing herself for the good of the town. You didn't get that sense from her posts? MoI just self-Chose with no explanation. All I'll say is that my understanding of Benmage's and MoI's characters is different from yours; I think Benmage's arrogance manifests itself very differently from MoI's, and I could conceivably see MoI feeling persecuted and having a deflated opinion of his Mafia abilities right now.

4) MoS:

Tierce, why did you vote to Choose us in the same post that you said we were a bad lynch? Yes, we'd be a better Choose than lynch, but you haven't mentioned a single negative thing about our slot until we became the leading lynch.

I thought it was implicit that I'd found it scummy.

[Minimum]

Please explain this bit, little wolf.

They're fairly impulsive and they're unlikely to have done the things the tell implies they weren't doing as scum anyway.

[Minimum]

You should let it fly though? That's not at all common scum behaviour.

[Minimum]

Checking in.

I read MoI as town and agree with his early posts regarding Minimum. Same with Lyanna and the latest page of Tierce/MoS. I think the attacks on Starbuck for thinking that Choosing town is correct policy are weak, and there's likely opportunistic scum in there. I'll catch up on everything in the middle later.

Vote: Minimum

Choose: Feysal

I take it your scum game has got much worse since AFFC.

Aside from my first kneejerk "this vote and justification thereof is terrible at this point of the game; also, OMGUS" reaction, I'm curious to know what exactly you agree with Lyanna on re: MoS/Tierce. Are they town/scum/____?

When did you start reading the game, by the way?

[Minimum]

So after ISO'ing minimum, I'll state that I think he's most likely scum or lazy ass town. His first part of the game doesn't help at all. Starbucks vote wasn't that good, neither was the snowstorm vote that was then swapped in his next post to salamence who he appears to have been on all game. After he voted on salamence his posts seem small and not too helpful and he doesn't do much till about post #323 where mina specifically posts and then again at #446 and #455 where I guess he started to feel pressured by the votes to do something. I don't like the majority of his responses to players though.

What out of all of this is supposed to tell you something about my alignment?

[Minimum]

Greenknight's entry post is also rather odd. Jumping on two somewhat-popular wagons without catching up on the thread, at this point in the day? Can't see the town-motivation for that.

That's simple enough... It's a 28p game which means a lot of inertia in terms of moving wagons to the point of being a serious lynch threat. Since my predecessor wasn't actually voting and catching up will take a while, it's correct play to place initial votes quickly imo.

So congratulations. Your protown bandwagoning vote (based on possibly the worst reason anyone before Shinori had in the game for suspecting us: a post arguing that 1) "it's inconsistent for Minimum to choose MoI...and then ask MoI

why

he would choose...because Mina should have been so happy that MoI was supporting the same wagon as her that she shouldn't have questioned that his motivations came out of nowhere", and 2) "Minimum's sarcasm flew miles over my head") has just guaranteed we'll be lynched today. (Well, a roleclaim could hypothetically save us, but I'm not dumb enough to softclaim either VT or useful/confirmable PR this early by my reaction.) Because there's no other serious option, and people are slowly trickling in and going. "Well, we're halfway through the day and we need to consolidate. I haven't actually caught up with the thread, but I see a large block of people have parked their votes on Minimum, and sure, they haven't proven that they're town. I know MagnaofIllusion is a brilliant scumhunter who would never lead the town astray, so I'm just going to be protown and sheep him."

Completely independent of whether you're town or scum (because I'm really not in the right frame of mind to think objectively about this), I hate you right now. (Not you as a

person

, just "player slot currently titled greenknight.")

(Also, Shinori...do you realize that all the short posts were written by CES and the long ones by me? And that every post CES has written in every single one of his games has been short, while almost every post I've written in all of my games has been long?)

This post was initially about five times bitchier and more self-pitying than this, but I edited half of it out because it's unfair to get CES in trouble because of my temper tantrum.

[Minimum]

Oh, wait, before I go to bed, I should wave my magic wand and somehow prove that I'm town by posting reads or a quote wall or just something generic and reasonable that would give someone warm and fuzzy vibes coming from someone like Regfan. Except I apparently ooze scummy pheromones from my pores to every single person in the game. And people probably won't even read this post, anyway, because they're too busy catching up--or if they read it, they'll vote me because I asked a question that's logically inconsistent with my stance on questions according to post #345. And I don't give a shit that I'm being petty and probably making myself look bad right now.

The only thing that's really changed since my last big reads post that no one actually read is that I'm more confident in Plum's Your Mamma being town, and Snow_Storm has some genuine-feeling posts in response to the wagon on him (for example, this and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4286917). Before going to bed, my other half still felt he was an okay lynch due to PoE and Snow's lack of scum reads, but upon a closer look, I see multiple flashes of town intent in his ISO. I also just ISO'd Hyperion. I didn't realize he'd had only two posts of content; I think I might have confused some of his posts with Dolorous Edd's. So far, I'm null on him. (He chose pretty random points to comment on, but he looked kind of lost and confused when it came to BBmolla's slip--it didn't seem like he was deliberately misrepping him, just that the gambit flew over his head.) I think I'd need to check some of his other games for a sense of whether that type of catch-up post is in character for him. mockingjaye would have earned a town read from me if she'd ever followed up on that big post of hers with conclusions; now I'm reserving judgment on her.

I find it really hard to determine if Shinori and greenknight's votes on me are scummy or just terrible and nonsensical from an outside PoV...or terrible and nonsensical only from

my

PoV. I wish I could daycop MoS to clear up his alignment, because he's maddening to read; his interactions with Tierce made me want to strangle him (particularly, "lol, who ISOs someone before casting a vote?" Um...doesn't...

everyone

do that?), except I'm not as convinced as Tierce is that his vote error is a damning scumtell.

By the way, I'd bet about $10 that

regardless of his alignment

, MagnaofIllusion doesn't actually care if we're scum and is upping the rhetoric because he would fucking love to get us lynched on D1. Oh, except CES told me not to interact with him at all or so much as make an offhand disparaging remark about him that would goad him into interacting with us, didn't he? Oops.

Also, Cow, do you honestly believe this:

Regfan, how do you possibly see Edd as town here?

I feel like I’m being interrogated here. What were your questions again, inquisitor?

Scum scum scum. Scummy scum scum.

Is it fair for me to characterize your reads as static this game? When you said you'd caught two scum on like page 3, and then said Feysal was the third scum, did you exaggerate it for rhetorical effect, yes or no? While we're at it, why did you find this post of Tierce's bad? What's your current read on Tierce?

Also, after some thought, I realized I'd actually like an explanation for this (mainly since Regfan has gone quiet, so I probably shouldn't just thoughtlessly write him off as obvtown):

The few scum reads are incredibly weak right now. Something feels off about Minimum but I can't pin-point what exactly, if I had to specify it's probably a lack of town reads stated by them or reads at all though willing to give them time

to convince me I'm just mad at Mina for picking CES over me to hydra with.

.

You posted this on Page 4 of the game. Our most recent post at that point was on page

two

. Did you seriously expect us to state town reads at that point?

Dolorous Edd, to do Snow_Storm a favour, I'll remind you that he's asked you about twenty times what your read was on me.

=====================================================================================
I think my reads are probably shittier than they usually are, because I'm too inclined to feel positively about people (like bvoigt and MoS) whose play looks scummy but who are defending us (either directly, or by chainsawing people who attack us). So it's hard to untangle "people who are playing toward a scum wincon" from "people I want to (metaphorically) die in a fire." It's a bad sign when I'm getting paranoid of my town reads for no reason whatsoever other than "They're voting me/don't like me/kind of looked at me funny."

[Minimum]

Tierce, you should Choose redFF. And the best way to read MoS is to wait for him to get nightkilled.

[Minimum]

Well, CES was the one that picked up the majority of the votes.

No?

I don't like their interaction with MoI on page 2 - instead of just asking him "why are you choosing yourself" there's a bunch of sarcasm and a joke scum claim which I got bad vibes from. Looked to me as attempting to muddy the waters.

Highly inaccurate. We did ask, then MoI countered with "Why so worried?" and only then did we drop a line of sarcasm but even that was accompanied by a serious response. There really is no way you can read our posts as "attempting to muddy the waters."

[Minimum]

So I believe the first thing was why is Feysal the best choice, and I am not sure what to say? What makes a good choice for anyone to be a vig? I know no one wants me to be chosen, and personally I don't feel that MoS and Minimum should not be choosen because both of them I don't think have been paying enough attention to make a good shot (I know for sure I wouldn't be a good choice as well). Feysal's mention of multiball still stings, but it is nothing I would be willing to lynch him for, but I believe Feysal could be good enough to shoot, or maybe he is scum. MoI would be my second choice if only he wouldn't shoot me because "lol sala iz total noob".

Why are you considering those 4 and not say, the people you think are scum?

P.S. did you just copy-paste your previous list of reads?

[Minimum]

Was your scum-read on Plum a figment of our imagination?

Yes.

#458 is totes townish (although I remember thinking it was bad before, probably a first impression type deal, that, which might go some way to explaining the miscommunication).

[Minimum]

I almost cried when I hit preview and saw the length of this thing, so I'm breaking this up into two posts so I look less rambly. And this was supposed to be the post where I just went, "Okay, I'm back, and I'll respond to most of you in a bit.," too.

Plessiezarus, Mina didn't actually take a vow of silence, but she still hasn't discovered how to post on mafiascum when she sleeps (which she did when she got home last night). And now, Mina will stop referring to herself in the third person.

I'm not really sure where the confusion is. I called Plum null and possible competent scum, then she posted #458, and then I cryptically call her "no longer null." But I meant she was town, not scum. I explained why in the post you linked to:

2) Since people keep bugging me about it...my "null" read was changed to slight town, because although I found the argument itself nitpicky, her thought process and her reference to discussions with Nacho looked real. (I find I usually dislike Plum's cases--not so much that she suspects the wrong people, just that her reasons for suspecting whom she does always seem alien to me). But I wasn't confident on it, and didn't really want to give her a gold star immediately after she'd posted words. Just calling her town for posting a fairly generic post would be making her feel comfortable for no reason. And I don't know, I was kind of hoping it might provoke some reaction from the slot.

(CES is right that he initially disliked the post, but he never mentioned it in the thread, just discussed it with me on AIM.)

Also, why didn't someone tell me earlier that the most protown thing I could have done this game would have been to stop wasting my time scumhunting rationally and just throw temper tantrums and vicious personal attacks at people? I'd have had a lot more fun. Believe it or not, I'm not

always

an irrational screaming nutjob, and sometimes I make a conscious effort

not

to be so as to make the thread less unpleasant. Off the top of my head, "half" and "five times bitchier" were exaggerations, but what I deleted from that post was 1) a more strongly-worded version of the MoI grudge-lynching accusation, 2) something along of the lines of "Oh, I bet someone is going to vote me for being overdefensive or appealing to emotion for this. And someone else for looking 'too concerned with appearances.' And someone else will go, 'oh, you also faked being angry in the First Law game, so FOS: Minimum," and 3) a couple of variations of "go fuck yourself/ves."

However, right now, I'm feeling a lot more reasonable and composed than I did Saturday night, because now there are people in the game who don't hate me, so I don't particularly feel like being crazy and emotional just for your personal entertainment. Tell MagnaofIllusion to say something like "Minimum is scum because they'd never want to policy-lynch a player who won Best Newbie back in 2011!" if you want more

amusement

insightful glimpses into my alignment.

Actually, I'll probably regret this, but two questions for MoI. Do you believe:

1) Minimum's policy-choosing you right out of the gate, as well as not explaining to people

why

we chose you, was a scumtell? You seem to keep implying it was.
2) Tierce is scummy, given that you felt the need to chime in and go, "Oh, don't listen to people telling you Tierce looks town--you should NEVER trust meta on her."

[Minimum]

In other news, I have the overpowering urge to run off with Tierce and elope with her. Also, thanks for

insulting

interacting with MoI so that I don't have to. (The obvtown thing hit close to home, although it's a mix of that and "You can fake any towntell you're making as scum--but no, you still suck as scum, sorry--so why shouldn't we lynch you?", "These CES posts don't sound anything like town!Mina," "this throwaway question you asked on page two, which is possibly the nullest thing anyone could say, is so scummy that we need no other information than that for us to lynch you, and I'll spam the game with empty meaningless rhetoric pretending it was a meaningful scumtell," and just generic "YOU GUYS AREN'T ALLOWED TO MISLYNCH ME!" rage.)

I'll concede a meta point to Regfan/greenknight/Tammy (not to MoI, as my apology to singer--although I felt bad about it because I knew it'd make her suspect us less--was entirely sincere, because he WAS being a huge dick to her and Sevei for "strategic" reasons) that I'd make a "You all suck!" post as scum and have done so before, just because it'd be so out of character for me to casually accept being a D1 mislynch. Don't clear me based on the fact that I wrote one at all. I don't think my scum rage (genuine or fake) hits the same notes as my town rage, though.

Honestly, what bothers me the least about greenknight is his stance on voting. Yes, it's a convenient vote for scum, but I can believe he thinks it's good theory to put his vote on me now and potentially move it later once the wagon sparks reactions (it did lead to reactions, in all fairness). What worries me more is that he'd devoted a lot of breath to saying no one should unvote me or treat me as town, when his vote on me was apparently just a bandwagon vote based on our page two posts (and he misrepresented those posts badly, as CES already explained--WTF does "muddying the waters" even

mean

?). Have you actually started catching up with the game, greenknight? Have you read any of our posts in the middle of the game? Who are your suspects right now?

(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)

[Minimum]

Again, to me this read as muddying the waters, not because jokes are inherently anti-town, but because by posting this stuff instead of "hey I didn't like MoI's reponse because of X" it remains it unclear WHY you are choosing MoI (a vote that stays on for 10 or so pages.)

Why would MoI's selfchoose have made us explain why we were choosing MoI?

And there is the oddness MoI pointed out in his post later that if you do think MoI is a good Choice in order to get a town vig as opposed to scum (34), then why question his selfvote.

It was a bogus point then and it still is now. Just look at MoI's answer to our question - how is that related to our Choice?

[Minimum]

Unchoose, choose: greenknight

[Minimum]

Why would MoI's selfchoose have made us explain why we were choosing MoI?

Why would you NOT be transparent about why you were choosing MoI?

That is not an answer to the question. You're the one trying to connect unrelated sarcastic quips to our MoIchoose.

Transparency is not something I'm particularly concerned about anyway, especially when being perfectly transparent is undesirable anyway.

MoI's answer is irrelevant. The point is, why would you ask the question in the first place when you apparently think he's a good Choice and he agrees with you?

Because reasons matter in mafia?

[Minimum]

Something about following up the thought that "Transparency is overrated" with "Reasons matter" is very, very funny. Reasons matter, unless people are asking Minimum for them ...

I generally answer questions put to me.

I'm like the Helen of Troy of Westeros.

Your face is a drydock.

[Minimum]

If you would read the rest of my iso I also stated that I didn't read anyone except for Shadows ISO and minimum's iso at that time, I just caught a few glances at Snowstorms post and hadn't read everything in context. It's really easy to misjudge a situation when you don't know everything.

So why are you suspicious of snowstorm exactly?

[Minimum]

Feel very comfortable lynching Salamence20 now.

Back to your response, I have a few questions. You suggested MoI might have made a self-nom because he was feeling emo or that he might be “feeling persecuted and having a deflated opinion of his Mafia abilities right now” Post 553. Why do you think he might have been feeling that way by the time he posted? I have always gotten the impression that MoI doesn’t really care what other people think or don’t think about him and instead just plays the game to win. I can also think of several reasons MoI cast a self-nom when he did, too, and only one of those reasons is scummy. Do you really think that MoI is emo or has a deflated opinion of himself? Do you really think he is the type of player who would try to get rid of you regardless of your respective alignments?

Better question: do you think this is relevant to our alignment?

Also, can you explain why you feel that Starbuck was a “beleaguered townie under pressure who thought she was sacrificing herself for the good of the town” Post 553? I mean, people were asking her questions and she had some votes on her, but I don’t really see how she was that beleaguered and there was no way was she going to be lynched that early on in the game, so no, to answer your question I definitely don’t get the sense that she was sacrificing herself at all.

It wasn't a self-sacrifice in the vein of "oh, I'm getting lynched" but a more pro-active one based on her ideas of what to do with our Choice; if you don't think she was sacrificing herself, then do you think the selfchoose/VTclaim/assorted stuff was just one big scum ploy? It reads very genuine to me.

I really don't like the way it feels like you try to cut off any criticism regarding your outburst in Post 641 and Post 643, which makes your outbursts seem much less genuine and a lot more manipulative to me.

Isn't 70 posts later a little late to cut off any criticism?

[Minimum]

Friend is just new to the site.

He's not new to mafia. Also he hasn't even come to fully read the thread yet so I'm busy trying to catch him up. =|

If need be I could link some games where he has played on another site. He's been playing for a few months easily.

Is he any good at playing scum?

Lyanna, I'll admit the fact the hydra-partner of Shinoris isn't 'new' does weaken the town-tell but while he may be nervous and weak as scum I don't think his solution to counter that would be bringing into it another player he has to have hydra-interactions with since they'd have to fake read disagreements ect.

That sounds like an unlikely thought pattern.

[Minimum]

Compromise onto Salamence, Edd.

I don't view my votes as useless.

Willful denial of reality is never helpful.

[Minimum]

You realize there's a reason we're hydraing, right, MoI?

Bvoigtwagon seems to me mostly a matter of him being not that strong a player but not to the point where it looks like an easy lynch. His posting seems fine to me.

Tammy, you should choose greenknight.

[Minimum]

Can you bullet for me the Sala case?

Meta is a big part of it. I've played with him and looked over the Kingdom Hearts game and he really did look town in both those games. There's also just a lack of scumhunting in his posts and recently he's simply gone completely inactive and basically not bothering to play. There are also a few statements that are clearly off (his original Feysalpost and "Hey!!! Someone understands me!!!! About time!!!") of a type that you'd expect Salascum to screw them up.

[Minimum]

(Making this two posts for readability.)

I actually did have RL things keeping me away from the game on Tuesday and Wednesday, for the record. I let CES know, but I thought it would be silly to announce it in the thread when my slot would still be posting actively.

Currently having

(was having when I started writing this post hours ago) an AIM board meeting, because we disagree on a few of our scum reads. I agree with those who find it much easier to clear wide swathes of people than pick out scum this game (and feel like I'm overlooking

someone

). I looked at the player list and realized there were only twelve people I didn't think looked particularly town. Only significant update: I'm now pretty confident that Dolorous Edd is town. (SnowStorm too, but given his claim, I don't get points for that.) I buy mockingjaye's explanation of her approach to the game, and am leaning town on her even if I disagree with the kinds of things she finds scummy.

That said, people keep saying, "Salamence20 is a bad wagon, because Salamence is a VI and therefore an easy lynch." I (Mina) have personally never played with Salamence (although I'll look at KH myself today). But some weaker players are very readable. Sell me on him being town. (Actually, sell CES on him being town, because he's a lot more stubborn when it comes to moving our vote. <_<) Meta defence along the lines of "he played similarly to this in X game" is fine, just not "his meta is to be a VI." (I don't agree with Tyene that his copy-and-pasted suspect list is a towntell, but I'll admit I have a couple of doubts: mostly on the "MoI would vig me if he was Chosen" being so bad it's

good

, my liking the players on bvoigt's wagon a lot more than his, and my impression of Sal's OTT post being closer to Benmage's than to...um...Minimum's.)

[Minimum]

Benmage:

Overall, I've liked his stream-of-consciousness catch-up posts, and feel like all the indecision, wagon-hopping, and "FMLs" are real--I'm more confident that this is town!Benmage than I did, say, in AFFC. That said...um...I feel like I'm missing something. Is the reason you went from calling us scum to town literally this? That CES is being too lazy to be scum, or that CES called Reck uncool?

hasdgfas

All right. Since I've realized that Edd has become kind of obviously town, you can officially no longer get away with saying, "Yeah, Minimum and Edd are caught scum on page 2. Let's lynch them. *sits on hands for the next thirty pages*"

I understand why you didn't explain your reasons at the time, but now I'd like to know--what gave you your initial scum read on Edd and Minimum? Your vote and Choose haven't changed all game. Why have you neither reconsidered either of these reads nor followed up on them in any way (either by questioning them or by hounding more people onto their wagons)?

Is Shadow your top scum read right now? What are your reasons for having neither voted nor chosen him at any point?

Also, this bugs me (partly gut, partly because I dislike most "Oh, I'll compromise with the majority" posts):

Looking at the vote/Choose counts, the main places to look now are SnowStorm, Salamence, Feysal, greenknight, correct?

Do you believe that the point at which you made this post that no options but those four were viable? Why didn't you suggest another option in this post, or seem remotely perturbed that Minimum, Dolorous Edd, and Shadow weren't among these four?

I'd be interested in hearing your reads on the four players you've mentioned. Really, a glimpse of where you stand (such as an overall reads list) would be good, too.

Regfan:

Spoiler: Because this is too long, and of little interest to someone who isn't Regfan.

That's not even close to what I said and I know you're not generally the type to purposefully misrepresent someone so interested in hearing whether you skimmed my post and only got a whiff of it or what here. I said that I think his carelessness about attracting attention and the way he's gone about it is a minor town-tell as was his reaction to your wall post, never said it was impossible for him to be scum and it had very minimal to do with him defending against someones lynch.

All right, I ISO'd you, and I concede that I was wrong--what stuck most in my mind afterwards was the argument that Shadow's motivations for defending me didn't make sense for scum, so it's that I remembered a couple of days later when I was starting to become more suspicious of Shadow. I still disagree with this, though (which literally just boils down to "scum wouldn't defend someone in multiball"):

plus don't think Shadow!Scum would protect Mina!Scum if they were partners and don't think he'd defend her if she was town as it'd just be increasing the odds of the lynch being moved to him or him being run up if she flips scum.

Also, didn't Shadow call plenty of attention to himself in AFFC?

Can you explain your 'growing confidence' in Plum being town because their last few posts have weakened my town read on them substantially to the point where I want to go re-read them later when I have the spare time to do so. Also want you to point out Snows specific instances of town flashes.

I feel like we're reading completely different threads if you thought Plum's Your Mamma looked scummier later on than in the beginning. But I thought Nacho's posting felt pretty town (particularly his reaction to being accused of attacking easy targets, his wanting a strong bandwagon, his interactions with Shadow, his backing away from a scum read of us earlier than they had to). I thought it was blatantly obvious that the SnowStorm posts I'd linked to were ones I'd found genuine, but to be more specific:

I really can't see how anyone would do this play as scum. I know I'm very far from looking town, but scum? You're not just accusing me of being scum, you're accusing me of being stupid-scum. According to all of you I just keep digging myself deeper with each post; everything I do is scummy, everything I don't do is scummy. This is starting to get ridiculous.

Maybe I recognized myself in some of his reactions, but it just read as a townie with a clean conscience who felt like he'd be tunneled on no matter what he'd say, particularly with his "I'm laughing so hard at this" follow-up to Tyene turning around and calling that post scummy. There are other posts that only reinforced this read (stances that seemed thought out, anger that looked like town anger), but given that he's claimed mason, this is a waste of time. When the thread is this huge, though, I tend to play more by gut feel and overall impressions of someone's play, because more of the details and subtleties (like "in game 87.634 on Westeros, SnowStorm made a case on House Manderly that was completely different from the case he made on Jal") don't stick in my mind.

By the way, I was serious about wanting an answer to this:

The few scum reads are incredibly weak right now. Something feels off about Minimum but I can't pin-point what exactly, if I had to specify it's probably a lack of town reads stated by them or reads at all though willing to give them time

to convince me I'm just mad at Mina for picking CES over me to hydra with.

.

You posted this on Page 4 of the game. Our most recent post at that point was on page

two

. Did you seriously expect us to state town reads at that point?

Pretty sure I've missed a few questions, so repeat them if you actually want an answer to them.

[Minimum]

Cow, I don't suppose you could explain your vote and choose...

before

replacing out, could you? It doesn't require any extra work or reading from you, just "here is why I found this scummy on page two."

Shadow, how were those posts of mine any more town than any other posts I've made this game?

[Minimum]

(That said, I'm sorry if my post was what tipped you over into replacing out. I just wanted to see more of your thought process.)

Shadow...are you saying you said we shouldn't lynch Minimum because you had a strong town read on me at that point of the game?

What exactly makes you so confident that I'm town?

[Minimum]

Ladies and gentleman, Minatown.

So this post

wasn't

you calling me town? "Minatown" means "Mina too talkative to lynch or Choose D1" in Shadowspeak?

[Minimum]

Regfan, don't waste your vote.

[Minimum]

That's pretty much what I said on bvoigt, just fyi.

As for Salamence, see here. Stefan is not a viable lynch anyway.

[Minimum]

We don't need a majority for the choosing, just fyi, ABR, so you can safely pick greenknight like the cool people are doing.

Feysal, your case on Starbuck isn't very good. Go do something else.

[Minimum]

I'm wondering why people gave green knight a hard time for placing votes without reading and no one bats an eye when seraphim does it.

Deadline.

[Minimum]

What makes you think it's pushed by scum specifically?

Stefan: well, I can't say I'm pleased that greenknight's leaning that way but on the whole I think there's a very decent chance that he'll flip scum or that I can convince him that shooting us would be suboptimal (his case against us lacks merit and vigging strong players is generally bad and doubleplusbad in multiball), so I'm also not that bothered.

[Minimum]

I'm not seeing anything that's inconsistent with standard townie awfulness here. You got a town read on the voigtster?

[Minimum]

MoS is not helpful and is not scumhunting (306). I don't know if this is par-for-the-course for Shadow, but this is not MoS.

It is.

Feysal, could you give me an overview of your reads?

[Minimum]

My Internet is down at home, and the coffee shop is closing now, so this is it from the less minimal half of Minimum for tonight.

We may possibly be up for a Shadow or DC flashwagon. Or we may not. Because I hate this game. I have no confident scum reads right now. There are the people I don't want to lynch (and unfortunately, a disproportionate segment of them are the strong players), and then there's a pool of mehs who occasionally say something sincere-ish or make an independent observation. Well, Shadow has some stuff that screams scum, but there are also a couple of things in his ISO that make me second-guess it.

(Also, I despise being mislynched/misvigged/misvoted, and even I...um...almost...prefer greenknight's claimed target to Feysal's. Well, assuming both are being truthful, anyway. I would have thought Feysal was stating an outlandish target just to scare people away from choosing him, but he's been consistently suspecting Starbuck.)

=========================================

Shadow, to continue our back and forth from Thursday...no. Let's recap:

-You immediately go, "Ladies and gentlemen, Minatown" after a big post of mine.

-I ask you why you found that post more townish than my others (since that immediately set off my buddying senses, and was curious to know why you were suddenly so convinced of my innocence beyond "post contains words").

-You go, "What? I never said that," and quoted an earlier post that said we're not lynching me today. Except...that quote wasn't even professing a town read on me in context.

-Yes, I played dumb for like one minute, by asking, "Why, are you saying you had a strong town read on us." But it was because I wanted an explanation for the contradiction.

Now you've changed it to "I never wanted to lynch you, but that post made you look slightly more town." But You've still never answered my question.

Why did that post suddenly make you think I was town in the first place?

Also, why did you provide a quote that in context meant you had a null read on me as a response to "Why did you find my post more townish than my others up to this point?" (Given that a couple of people are calling us the scummiest scum that ever scummed and did not suddenly see the light after that post, apparently my alignment wasn't that obvious.)

===========================================================
Questions for Saporerint:

-Can you decipher this for me? I'm having trouble parsing why Stefan is your top suspect based on this summary, even with Stefan's ISO in a separate tab as a cross-reference.

StefanB looks scummy, especially after Plessie just contextualized DE in the previous post. EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it's based on a misreading on his part. I think the Feysal wagon is bad, though, except for maybe Tierce. EDITEDIT: Really don't like that his response after being corrected by Regfan is a player-by-player analysis.

-Why did you jump immediately into Stars Aligned III and only provide the detailed page-by-page catch-up afterwards?

-Have you discussed this game at all with saporovirus? Do you know if she has any reads up to now?

-Have you ever played with Tammy before?

-Rate from 1-10 how emotional this game is making you. Any emotion--rage, excitement, fear.

[Minimum]

For that bit, my recollection is that Plessie cleared up some uneasiness I had about DE (DolorousEdd), and StefanB voted DE in the very next post (and joined the Feysal-Choose wagon). Because I knew I had had doubts about DE and Plessie's post had just had a strong effect on me, I think it showed StefanB's lack of engagement with the thread. After that, someone (I think RegFan) made a post showing why StefanB's reasoning against DE was mistaken/misconstrued. StefanB unvoted at this point and accepted the other player's account, but then followed up with a vapid player-by-player analysis that starts in the same post where DolorousEdd was unvoted (EDIT: posts 111, 112, 115, and 116).

If StefanB was really thinking critically about DB as scum, I think he would have had some kind of a reflection on Plessie's post somewhere. The PBPA that followed RegFan's correction seemed ad hoc (scummy) rather than an indication of scumhunting. I also disliked his joining the Feysal wagon. The best defense of these things I've seen so far is someone's suggestion (Staeg?) that it results from language issues, but I don't think it's that simple.

As I see it, Stefan voted DE based on some mistakenly thinking DE had contradicted himself and then unvoted when he realized his mistake. Pleszar's post is nice but doesn't really seem relevant to the specifics of Stefan's case. 115-116 does seem to be ad hoc but is fairly natural given that Regfan asked him for opinions on other people in 113.

Unvote, vote: DCXLVI

Let's get some stuff happening in here.

[Minimum]

Unvote, vote: Shadow

Unchoose, choose: DCLXVI

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Minimum:
So, CES, why did you write Post 844, because those were all points I had addressed to Mina and I really would prefer to hear her response to at least the first two of them.

The answers to your questions in that post:
1. Yes, I do. You both know MoI well enough to know he's definitely not emo, nor is he concerned with other people's opinions of him. Mina saying something like that reads more like she's making something up to try to justify disengaging from her earlier stance on him due to his self-nom.
2. No, I didn't read it as genuine. I took that up with her in my first post, though, so I'm not sure why you asked me this.
3. It was a little late, but it was still an attempt to undo or at least mitigate some of the damage caused by her outburst.

I'm not happy that Mina handed off responsibility for answering my questions to CES and never brought them up when she was posting again. I think it proves the point made by MoI in Post 1024 and confirms my scum read on them.

I wrote it because I was there and I don't really see any reason to respect people's wishes when it comes to which hydra head they want to talk to.

1. In your experience is that a thing that scum actually do? Out and out lie for little reason? However cool it would be if true, scum rarely go for the cartoonish villainy.
2. Question wasn't if it was genuine. Question was what you make of it (the cartoonish villainy angle is again relevant here).
3. I don't remember any damage?

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People should compromise onto Shadow for the lynch and choose DCLXVI with righteous fury. Feysal is definitely not allowed to be chosen.

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Another non-response in the first line. Yup there is a reason you are hydrating. What that reason is has absolutely no impact on whether you drew a scum-PM or not.

It's very important to stay hydrated! More relevantly, our reasons for hydraing do matter for activity stuff which your accusation preceding that remark dealt with.

Sala is a VI. I’d love you to link your common games to show him looking Town. He was terrible in Kingdom Hearts. The stance (Mina propsed it in the Some VIs are readable … sell me on Sala Town post) that people should sell the two of you on Sala-Town is a mis-argument. I see a few players (Benmage) arguing that Sala is Town but I myself say I have a very hard time reading Sala and find the attention he draws for VI play suspect. You both needed to sell “Sala scum” not the other way around.

Link (#26 is especially townie looking). And I did try to sell Salascum; and given the circumstances challenging people to sell us Salatown instead of lazily dismissing it as a push on a VI was not inappropriate.

Frankly for someone who is giving bvoigt the “looks like an acceptable mislynch since he’s not an easy lynch” cover your push on Sala is a nice bit of Cognitive Dissonance.

Hmm? My position was and is that the bvoigtwagon looks like the result of him being a weaker player but not weak enough that he enjoys the "easy target" protection. Where is the dissonance?

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I'm currently trying to finish a few applications (seriously, the next person who accuses me of tactically lurking can shove it--leaving aside that I'm not that cheap as either alignment, I'm putting more effort into this game than most people are even though I didn't want to play in the first place), so there's a lot of stuff I won't respond to now.

But doing this temporarily so that no one does anything stupd:

Unvote

Unchoose

Shadow, have you ever heard of the torturer role before?

Don't have high hopes that DC will flip scum right now, but Feysal's big reads post also looked town, so I'm at a loss for options. I'm starting to think the scum are hidden among the stronger players, but I have no clue which ones.

MoS, what's the source of your confidence that DC is a bad wagon?

(By the way, PlumNacho's hop onto Shadow bugged the shit out of me. They made a huge case on bvoigt that singlehandedly started the wagon, don't ever back down from it...but then when Shadow's wagon gains momentum mostly as a counterwagon to bvoigt...without even mentioning bvoigt, they make

another

big case on Shadow, and hop over? This was when bvoigt hadn't said a single word in his defence. They don't even seem to have a moment of town "Hmm, should I switch wagons? Both of these are good," self-reflection. Just another giant case to persuade people onto Shadow.)

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EBWOP:

1)

But doing this temporarily so that no one does anything stupd:

Like, misspelling "stupid."

2) To clarify my question to MoS: I understand liking DC's reactions, but you seem confident that DC never should have been wagoned in the first place.

(DC, are you trying to look like you'll shoot Regfan so we don't lynch you, y/n? I only skimmed the beginning of your scum game, and so far haven't seen a huge difference, at least between that and your early play here; is there an obvious scum/towntell coming up?)

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Don't lynch Shadow yet! I want a response from him.

Benmage, if he has the role he says he does, then it only makes sense for him to be Ramsay for flavour reasons. (Anyway, Faraday loves giving scummy-looking roles to townies--see ASoS for an example.) Do you know any Aegon-aligned or ???-aligned characters who make sense as torturers?

(Speaking of which, BBmolla, was that information you heard in your role PM, or a mod message was just randomly sent to you in the middle of the day?)

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Well, I wanted Shadow to answer if he'd seen the role before giving it away, MoI, but it's more than that. Faraday and I actually came up with the role together, for another game (also for a torturer character), and liked it so much that I used it for my Large Normal (which Faraday played a large part in designing). There's no way this is a coincidence.

Just one question. So you get "torturer" on a torturer, Shadow? What do you get on a doctor? On a vanilla townie? On a Mafia goon?

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I'm not going to waste my time railing for a lynch when we have a combination of stupid, lazy, and self-interested working against it.

*twitch*

*twitch* *twitch* *twitch*

*locks away chainsaw*

*forces Stepford smile onto face*

(I probably shouldn't have bothered to post this when it's not particularly relevant to the thread, but I'm starting to get annoyed by certain people being dead certain in a read that is dead wrong and being painfully smug about it--and no, this isn't directed only at MoI. That said, I don't agree with Edd's characterization of MoI's push on us.)

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So Iece, is your position that he's lying about his claim, or that he's a scum torturer?

Wait, uh, Tyene, weren't you the one defending Stefan to the hilt before?

I didn't like Feysal's ISO on greenknight either, FWIW. DC's "You're scummy because you didn't pick up on this obscure tell from both of my games" argument is silly and ridiculously self-absorbed, but in a town way.

We probably would have been better off just quicklynching the first person to claim VT and then waiting for all my town reads to crosskill each other. It's going to be the fifth straight scum win in a row. Yay!

And why the fuck am I even posting in this game?

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To be completely honest, I just want this on the record for postgame: if I (Mina, since this post is short enough to be ambiguous) was alone, my vote would definitely be on bvoigt right now. But I'll leave hydra dissonance out of the thread. Right now I feel that just about everyone else (well, possibly not Saporerint, since most of the towntells they've dropped don't count for much if this is multiball) who has had a major wagon on him/her today is town based on either claims or reactions.

I still think that Stefan's reaction to us felt townish (both the "then I'll just leave my vote on you if you won't explain" which Tyene found town before she voted him, and later his asking about our reaction to greenknight's announced vig target), and there was no need to start yet

another

flashwagon on him and force a claim just because Regfork said so...particularly since "wagons just about everyone indiscriminately" applies to half the people in this game, and the people wagoning him don't actually

suspect

Stefan. (And MoI, that post wasn't disgust, real or fake. It was frustration with myself--I had a hand in the DC/Shadow/greenknight wagons, after all.

This

is self-righteous disgust.)

MagnaofIllusion, link to the game where bvoigt has been a protown force? Do you know anything about his scum play?

Wait, StefanB soft-claimed Tyrion?

Unvote, Vote: StefanB

Kill it with fire.

So are you voting Stefan because you think that Tyrion is Aegon-aligned...and decided to softclaim that instead of Cersei? Also, I don't care that you love to cultivate your "too lazy to contribute on D1" meta; link me to where he softclaimed Tyrion. Go on. What makes you so confident that that was an actual softclaim?

Pity it's too late in the day for me to push my daycop guilty on you.

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EBWOP: I think I misunderstood Stefan as having actually

claimed

Cersei. Let me rephrase that. You're voting Stefan because you think that he decided to softclaim an evil-sounding character? Because he didn't have a fakeclaim? (Never mind that Faraday subverts character names all the time--even if Tyrion is a fakeclaim, it's a fakeclaim that Faraday

intended

to be aligned with the innocents.)

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So bvoigt, you coincidentally think that both the leading Choose wagon AND the leading vote wagon other than yourself are both scum? There are no doubts whatsoever in your mind?

Also, what exactly is the scum motivation for DC to behave like this? Why exactly is he trying to get towncred by his case on Lyanna? (I'm missing a step in your argument.)

In

A Clash of Kings

, he made Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish townies (where town were the Starks), and Tyrion Lannister Mafia. (He also made Melisandre a fakeclaim.) But more likely,

he fucking gives scum fakeclaims.

EVERY SINGLE GAME, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

So Stefan's softclaim is null at absolute best.

Furthermore, what the fuck? He hasn't actually 100% softclaimed Tyrion, anyway. It might be the language barrier.

This is annoying. I hate it when I suspect the lynch option(s) that hasn't claimed more than the lynch option who has claimed. (Personally, I'd go bvoigt>Sapo>Stefan, but my other half would probably veto this order.) I also think Feysal is moderately more likely to be scum than DC now, too (although his long reads post seemed more genuine than the one he did in Court of the Gods on the verge of being lynched).

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By the way, on the off-chance I die tonight (sadly, it would probably be by vig rather than nightkill), here is the link to the torturer role. The only difference is that Shadow's results are the role title rather than the name of the active ability. There is no fucking way he made up that claim. (Sorry, Shadow. I should have left you alone when you made that "I'm not getting lynched or chosen today" post.)

I don't have Internet at home, so that's all my posting for tonight.

[Minimum]

Mina once again speaks wisely.

Unvote, Vote: Bvoight

L-2. Claim or die.

Did I also speak "wisely" about saying I had a daycop guilty on you? And asking you to justify your shitty vote hop?

Seriously, are you fucking kidding me? Are you

trying

to shout, "Look at me! I'm buddying Minimum, because Mina said she's dumb and prone to getting warm fuzzy feelings about people who don't try to lynch her?"

And mockingjaye, I'm sorry, but I can't answer you! I'm really terrible as scum, so I'd totally be busted if I answered those questions. There's no way I can invent a satisfactory excuse for why I found Starbuck "genuine" (because it's too hard for me to pick a random post and call it genuine, and because it's not like it's common consensus that Starbuck's posting looked genuine). Seriously, not to be rude (since you seem like a nice person, at least for someone who plays forum Mafia ), but not everything is about you. This is a sixty page game, and I explicitly said I was short on time. I thought it was a lot more important to respond to the claims and results (particularly since Shadow might have been lynched if I'd stayed silent) than answer a question that was already answered just to assuage your paranoia. I think that in general, it's much more productive to scumhunt than to defend yourself from minor points. There are multiple outstanding questions to me from like twenty pages ago that I'm sure I missed, but the game has moved on. If I replied to every single throwaway sentence along the lines of "Minimum is scum because THEY TOTALLY WEREN'T SCUMHUNTING ON PAGE TWO, BECAUSE YOU AREN'T SCUMHUNTING IF YOU ASK A QUESTION INSTEAD OF POSTING A READS LIST," then I'd never be able to keep up with the game. There's some other stuff unrelated to you that I wanted to call attention to, but didn't have time for, either.

(OMIGOD, I SARCASTICALLY CLAIMED SCUM! CLEARLY THAT MAKES ME CHEEKY SCUM. OMIGOD, AND NOW I'M CALLING ATTENTION TO IT. THAT MAKES ME SCUM CONCERNED WITH APPEARANCE. AND TRYING TO CUT OFF CRITICISM OF MY HUGE SCUMTELL. AND NOW I'M BEING OVERDEFENSIVE, BECAUSE ONLY SCUM WOULD DEFEND THEMSELVES WHEN I'M NOT IN DANGER. OH, EXCEPT I'M ALSO SCUM FOR

NOT

DEFENDING MYSELF AND ANSWERING A QUESTION. You can all preemptively fuck off.)

I have to leave for work, so I can save it for D2 if you're persistent. But I'll already tell you that re: the MoI question, there's some history that I can't really get into right now, so I can't give a full answer, anyway.

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I feel like this is a choice between a turd sandwich and giant douche right now. For both the vote and the choose.

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Also, wow, yet ANOTHER person voting Stefan because "his character totally has ulterior motives in the book." mockingjaye, you've played past Eddard Stark games, so you have no excuse at all for that.

Hey, mjaye, how many times have you been scum on MS? Do you think there's a difference between your play here and in your scum games?

Ugh, I'm tempted to vote Sapo, but not willing to force yet another claim.

p-edit: DC, in our defence, you looked suspicious until when you were close to death (since you were pretty lurky before then), and by then there were no other decent options. Well, I still think it's actually better for a town suspect to be chosen than a scum suspect, anyway.

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Okay first thinks first: I am not claiming Tyrion, I claim someone who is an enemy of Cersei, not the crown or whatever else you believe in. The short was not a crumb, it started later.
There are 2 reason why I don't make the chara clear.
1. I have used crumbs since the beginning, so yeah I want them to be used.
2. If I am replacing out/ it should be my sucessor that makes the claim clear. (Way more believable and helpful to town since it is more sincere)

Okay, yeah. So this is 100%, without a doubt, a mislynch.

Fuck.

LET'S FLASHWAGON MASTERMIND OF SIN, GUYS. IT'S TOTALLY DOABLE IN NINE HOURS.

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My gut feeling is that bvoigt is lying about his claim, but it's poor play to risk it on D1.

I think kortul is very likely town right now based on his reaction, though. Leaning town on Jal, but it's not super-strong. And I think Staeg is town mostly because he's playing a lot better than I think he would as scum.

I really think there are scum among the widely trusted strong players, though, because all the weaker players/easier lynches keep doing stuff that looks town.

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All right, I am going to suggest something ridiculous, but dead-serious:

We no-lynch today.

I mean it.

The point of lynching is to narrow the suspect pool, get a flip, and use a shot to get scum.

Right now there is no chance that Stefan is scum. If he is not lynched today, I'm willing to bet he will not be lynched for the rest of the game.

We're already getting at least two flips: DC's and his vig target.

Why just get rid of a townie for no reason?

Pless, your interactions with me today have kind of bugged me. It seems like you keep listing us as a top scum read, but then interacting with me as though you don't actually suspect me. (Never mind that you went from being mixed on our slot, to saying you found us scummy because "Mina didn't do anything to assuage our suspicions of that slot, to then defending my reaction, to then calling us a strong scumread anyway. It seems like it's come completely out of nowhere.)

Nacho, something I didn't say before: you might not have a specific strategic goal as scum by switching. It still felt off--as in, not how I think town should act when there's a counterwagon to their pet case. The motivation could have been as simple as "Look, there's another mislynch to push! Whee, let me look town by making a case on him."

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No.

What information are we getting if five people go, "Shit, no time. *piles vote on him*" There is literally nothing to analyze in multiple people voting someone they don't actually suspect and using "it was deadline" as an excuse. The people on the tail end of the wagon will just be the people who happened to be online. It's completely null.

If you have doubt on Stefan's alignment, then go ahead and lynch him for the "flip". But every instinct in me is screaming that he's town...and furthermore, no one is arguing otherwise. Lynching him today when everyone thinks he's town is pointless.

Having a flip doesn't help if we already know what the flip will be.

Just because it's good play 95% of the time to lynch someone you don't suspect on D1, doesn't mean I think it's good play here.

...you know what?

VOTE: bvoigt

I don't think we should lynch bvoigt right now. But I'm leaving my vote here just in case Edd has actual information making him scum, just in case it's needed.

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I don't think the good players are playing that spectacularly and Shadow was likely to be protected, so I don't see the mason kills as problematic, personally.

It probably does make most sense to use the jailer on someone townie-looking with no coordination. Trying to use it on someone scummy just seems like bad play since it's not going to prevent the nightkill (even uncoordinated any halfway competent scum team should have a member who's practically guaranteed not to have been jailed).

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Okay, I might be dense or something, but why do we want to preserve Shinori until tomorrow via jailing? Wouldn't it be a better idea for him to claim his result now and then we act on his results tomorrow?

It just seems a waste of a mechanic that might help us avoid a night-kill, because if we decide on it in public, scum will just kill someone else. And for what? Shinori reads townish, and that "I have something important to talk about" seemed townish as well, but frankly if the alternative is for him to be the jail target, I'd just rather he outed his info now and the jailing be kept private.

Shinori has already suggested that whether to share the info wasn't such an obvious decision. I don't particularly feel like making that decision for him. The jailing thing isn't that good anyway.

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Will this still look suspicious if you claim or is there actually something going on that made that question a natural one, Saporerint?

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I've been phenomenally lazy this game day (CES has done all the posting so far) and am tempted to just ignore this game and watch

Doctor Who

until bvoigt is lynched, but I'm forcing myself to tackle this monstrosity. I'm fine with waiting for Magua to catch up and PlessZar to analyze their null reads before ending things.

MoI, didn't you have daytalk in AFFC as well? I know Faraday has come around to being a huge daytalk proponent, so I'm fairly confident scum have it here, as well.

Zdenek: for the record, I know for a fact that Tyene had an earlier post saying basically the exact same thing about having town reads among the scum players (referring to the SnowStorm wagon), because when I wrote that post, I was actually thinking, "Oh, Tierce picked up on the same thing." As for the rest of your points, not to do Tyene's defending for her, but can you explain how any of those are alignment-relevant? Is scum more likely than town to make superficial "contradictions" like "The vig should kill who he wants" and "I wish this player was vigged" (which is different from "We are forcing the vig to kill this player," anyway).

(I'm not as confident as Regfan is that she's town, since she does some weird stuff that looks "bad" on paper, like calling bvoigt town at an odd time, explicitly going, "I don't suspect Stefan--he's just null, so why not?" and "I'm just sheeping Regfan on this read," but her explanations and mindset for it seem like a town variety of weird. It's hard to put into words, but aside from her being "protown," the whole way she approaches the game and scumhunts feels very natural.)

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I've sent my jailkeep vote in.

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Shinori hasn't done or said anything to make me think he's going to be better at making the decision than the town as a collective.

Shinori actually knows what the relevant information is.

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CES, regarding Post 1283 which I missed yesterday, you may not respect people's wishes regarding the hydra head they speak to, but I was specifically addressing Mina for something Mina did, which you really aren't able to fully answer to; that's why I don't like that you answered and she didn't. I don't think anything I accused Mina of was "cartoonish villainy" or anything of the sort. For one, I don't think Mina lied for no reason; I think she lied to justify disengaging from her escalating argument with MoI, and for two, I obviously thought of it as being scummy. To the third point, the damage I was referring to was the possibility of being called out on AtE, i.e., what I did. It DID have a softening effect on me, as I almost let myself be talked into feeling bad for being on your collective case so much.

I am capable of properly answering it, so yeah. For the first point, the supposed lie really didn't do that? And you never need a reason to stop talking to MoI. For the second point, that wasn't the question; just calling it scummy is basically just restating that you don't think it seemed genuine; I want to know what you thought she was doing, what her thought process would be there as scum? As for the third, we've now gone from "cutting off criticism" to "undoing/mitigating damage" to "cutting off potential future criticism 70 posts after the post was made and no one was responding negatively"; you seem to be inclined to interpret it in a certain way based on your response but you should be able to recognise here that your theory simply doesn't work.

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=============[}
{]=============

Vote: bvoigt

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I'm pretty sure nothing there's nothing whatsoever that Saporerint could claim that would make this less of a no-brainer, but I'll be nice and wait for them before locking my vote in.

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Could you explain your jailvotes, Feysal and MoS?

Why do the PlessZar jailvotes implicate Jal and Staeg, DE?

MoS or Plum seem like the best Godhand targets.

Vote: Staeg

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By the way, Dolorous Arthur, for next time, be a bit more discreet, because that quote was the most obvious vig softclaim ever (particularly when combined with your reaction to bvoigt on Day One).

MagnaofIllusion, do you actually think all the players on that list have a reasonable chance of being scum?

Also, is it fair to say that although Edd's characterization of your push on us D1 was inaccurate, you haven't followed up on your scumread of us since then?

I'm severely tempted to deliberately ignore mockingjaye's questions for the rest of the game, just to annoy her.

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For the record, Edd, Faraday could have easily thrown in both an odd-night vig AND your role (part of why I didn't immediately sheep you on bvoigt was because I thought you could be a weak killing role who didn't know Faraday's mod meta).

Lyanna, in ACoK, there were nine scum (4-4-1) in a twenty-six-player game (4-4-1). The factions definitely aren't 3-3 in a

twenty-eight

-player game. Had Faraday not bitched to me so much about there being ten scum in Chrono Trigger, I'd have guessed this was 5-5 (with one of the scum on each faction being a traitor)--and I can still see Faraday being a hypocrite about balance given that ACoK had a higher scum ratio than CT, or thinking splitting up Team Aegon would compensate for the numbers.

I don't disagree with your point, though, particularly since Edd is blindingly obvious town. It just seems like good manners to give them a couple of days (and at least have all the information on the table before they die). I actually think the slip in isolation had decent odds of being innocuous, but they're a good lynch anyway based on PoE, lack of town tells, Salamence's play, and the change in their play since being treated like confirmed scum.

p-edit: that was Mina, and I actually missed that you'd included yourself on the list (I read "myself" as part of "My list"), but 1) I would godhand myself over several of the names on that list (because clearing a group suspect is better than making sure that a widely trusted player is

double

-confirmed in a game with

crosskills

), 2) missing something like that is not even the slightest bit alignment relevant, and 3) that doesn't explain why you were pushing us to the ground on D1 but then stopped despite claiming to still suspect us. I asked because some of the players on your list were bizarre, and I wasn't sure if the problem was with your strategy or your scum/null reads. I have no problem with choosing players you'd like to have around even if they were scum, but it's a complete waste of a guaranteed sane mod investigation to use it on someone who's trusted

and

likely to be nightkilled.

[Minimum]

Minimum's investigation choice also had the added reasoning that as scum they might opt to go for a weird fakeclaim.

Fakeclaiming VT is the One True Way^tm. How does that relate to Freys anyway?

It's also a really limited role. It reminds me of the role I had in Faraday's Wheel of Time game at another site. I had an investigative role that only told me if the person was a woman with magical powers. It didn't tell me anything about alignment or what power they had, and basically all I could do is bust if someone lied about that one aspect. The scum team was given a full investigative role though. I don't know how much relevance that has to this game, but I'm trying to figure out what use a Frey Cop would be to a scum team.

Our "investigative role" was useless and its only effect was that you'd get a different result on that player. But yes, limited cops are perfectly viable roles. (P-edit: don't believe they were randomly distributed.)

What players on the list are bizarre? My strategy is rock solid so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Not a single name on that list is universally Town-read.

I'd argue that Tierce and Regfan pretty much are, some silly people notwithstanding.

At Post 1097 you agree with Regfan’s opinion at 1096 that bvoigt is more likely Town than not for doing some ‘Town’ things.

Nope. I was referring to the other part of what Regfan said (as evidenced by my wording and you also just quoted the relevant thing I was referencing.)

@Minimum

– I think I know but please indicate which of the posts I have quoted in this response were Mina written.

#1028 is mine. The rest are Mina's. Is that what you thought?

Summary – that whole sequence of post reads as partner who first wants to get pressure off the slot early on when there isn't a strong push. Later they transition to a 'bvoigt is scum' position well after he's been wagonned and Stefan was going to take the rope Day 1.

I generally bus my partners though? I mean, sure, this is multiball but this suspicion on our slot should do wonders for our longevity + it's still bvoigt we're talking about.

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This is not a Mina-game, but Faraday being Faraday, etc. Minimum, you're the best people to give input on the likelihood that this is actually a role that exists in this game.

Mina's game didn't use a self-watcher but just a regular N1 Watcher. Selfwatcher does avoid the major issue with watchers but it doesn't really matter? This is not a hard decision.

HURT: Sapo

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4-4 seems like a reasonable assumption for the scum groups. Even if Aegon really is separated, that just means the Chrono Trigger analogy is more apt (in which one side had 2 traitors) and I don't see any sign we have more power here than in CT (and the real problem with 5-5 is really just the sheer number of scum to get through; maybe if we had more mechanics like D1's where we get to kill extra people but I don't expect that to recur.)

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Please answer my question in 2051, Staeg.

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Now that I have that out of my system I think Revolution Mafia shows that you are more than happy to not bus to lynch (given CES was the only scumbag actually lynched) when it suits you.

I basically spent the entire game elaborately bussing Kanye, so not really. Last post in that thread right now is actually me saying I bussed too much.

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I'm about to go to bed, but it looks like our claim is warranted.

We are

Barbrey Dustin

. Our flavor is that we hate the Starks. We're supporting the Lannisters mainly out of hatred of the Starks. The flavor makes numerous references to the remains of the Starks, the implication being that our enduring hatred is out of touch with reality.

Our only ability is called

Knick-knack paddywack, give a dog a bone Ned Stark 'aint [sic] coming home

. The ability is described as a self-watcher ability. It's a Passive ability, but I didn't notice that it was so labeled explicitly until Shadow pointed it out. If anyone targets us, we will be told who targeted us. If no one targets us, we will receive no result. Both N1 and N2, we received no result.

Well, it's a bit late for it to matter either way, but you've just been caught in a lie. Can you figure out what it is, based solely on information that is in the thread?

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Why does any of that matter, Jal? Edd is doubleplustown.

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Who are your suspects here, Jal? (You don't have to mention Staeg although it's worth pointing out that the Mason point is pretty weak.)

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Um...why exactly did you hammer already?

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(This is directed at everyone who piled up on him, not just Zdenek, by the way. I wanted the day to go on a lot longer than this.)

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(And if Staeg flips town, I'm not sure who I'm killing first--Shinori (because had he not played his role in possibly the dumbest and most antitown way ever, Staeg's role would have been easily confirmed or disproven) or CES.)

MoS and Feysal...the fact that you apparently had a town read on us doesn't justify your jail. There was 1) no chance whatsoever that we were getting nightkilled on N2 (since quite a few people wanted to lynch us) and 2) no chance that a jailkeep wagon was going to happen on us. What was the purpose of your strategy?

(I'm surprised that no one noticed that we jailkept someone completely different from whom we said we would, by the way. Come on, people--it would have been perfect ammunition for a case!)

Regfan, if you're still around (I'm pretty sure Faraday and Nexus won't be around for a while to lock the thread), can you explain why you're so confident that Magua is town? (I'm asking more for my own enlightenment.) I haven't seen enough from him or his predecessors to be confident either way, but I feel like he's been going with the flow a lot. Also, although I know Magua can be flippant as town, at times he's very glib and superficial with his reads.

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Zdenek, I haven't been able to check in the thread much in the past couple of days, and I'd never noticed Staeg being more than halfway to a lynch (anyway, I think the paranoia over a quicklynch happening before the godhand if any votes were in play was somewhat overwrought). But wagoning someone and wanting that player lynched that second are not always the exact same thing. (I'm also annoyed for reasons I'll leave out of the thread.) It would have been good manners for you to go, "Okay, does anyone have any last words to get in before I hammer?"

Magua, believe it or not, I actually

did

have stuff I wanted to talk about (mostly in relation to Staeg) as soon as I caught CES online. For the record, I wasn't trying to paint Zdenek as scummy (hence the "directed at everyone"); although I didn't like the hammer, his reactions to Tyene feel more in keeping with his controversial, tunnel-on-a-weird-theory town self I saw in Good vs. Evil. If anything, I think the scum are concentrated around the middle of the Staeg wagon (before Plum's Godhand).

p-edit: Regfan, could you give me concrete examples on how Magua's town reads fit his character? I'm asking mainly for my own enlightenment.

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Vote: Anxiety

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is that a vote for me or my replacee?

Yes.

You realize the Greyscale is just modifying the lynch, right?

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You're really willing to decide whom to lynch based on what is a relatively minor side effect?

I have Feysal down as null right now. Definitely worth keeping around at any rate; his alignment'll become obvious over time.

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ensuring a pr gets one more night to get results is not a minor side effect

Guaranteeing one extra follow result is fairly minor.

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Not helpful, Tammy. Just play around benmage and vote for the evil mockingjaye; it's what all the cool people are doing.

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But yesterday all the cool people were voting for the "evil" Staeg, and look where that got us. Besides, I'm not sure on Mockingjaye. I re-read through her this morning, and with the exception of her not being on one of the major choose wagons, I'm not seeing a whole lot of alarms. I need to re-read again though, but for some reason I didn't think she fit with Sapo/sala/bvoigt, I can't remember why I thought that though, so this might be negated when I read again. The not being on either of the major choose wagons would only make sense if she DCL and Feysal were partnered though, because why wouldn't she just choose Feysal if partnered with DCL?

Sample size of 1 is meaningless.

Anxijay is scum because:
1) deliberate narrow focus (in multiball)
2) not being her obvtown self

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1) is also why Jal is scum (and the associated scum mindset does also go some way to explaining her weird behaviour around Edd Yesterday.)

P-edit: Hi.

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Not living up to expectations. Not many expectations coming from CES, to be perfectly honest, but I do expect more from Mina that I'm not seeing here (this reasoning is very similar to my Tierce-scum read, but a little more pronounced in this case).

And that's a scum tell how?

(Your town tell on Jal is bunk since she wasn't even really going after Edd. I suspect she was writing irrelevant stuff on Edd because that's an area concerning which she had some genuine 'pinions.)

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What do you consider of her writing to be a deliberate narrow focus? I'm not seeing it, even if you include MockingJaye's posts.

Um, I'm just talking about mockinjaye and she admitted to having a narrow focus at least twice? The question is purely one of interpreting it correctly (i.e. realizing that this is totes a scum tell for relatively inexperienced scum in a multiball scenario.)

Feysal hasn't done much of anything beyond the first half of D1. He isn't obviously townie or scummy. Scum have also obviously been shooting for either PRs or major town reads. How do you think his alignment will become obvious overtime as the town whittles down leaving the scummy towns/nulls behind? At least enough that he is definitely worth keeping?

It's happened every time I've played with him previously? And he'll probably do his best to scumhunt the opposing faction if he's scum so keeping him alive wouldn't be that in that case.

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(Scumhunter is basically right about Starbuck too.)

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I can see a meta-based burden of proficiency argument for Tierce (I don't agree with it but I can see it), but meta should also tell you that applying burden of proficiency to our slot is bunk.

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Um, replying in questions to make the answers seems obvious, lyke, totally doesn't make you seem any better. I don't care what MockingJaye said personally. Where and how do you see her having a deliberate narrow focus?

What has happened every time you've played with Feysal previously? His alignment becoming obvious? Be specific. I do not look up everyone's past and present games, nor should you expect anyone else to in this particular regard. I don't know or really care all that much about your history. Don't make it like it should be obvious. Other than not saying much of anything except a lot of words, Feysal has been taking a narrow focus on the Starbuck/Scumhunter slot. You think the slot is town. Do you see him branching out later on in this game if Scumhunter is still around?

It was kind of obvious I was talking about mockinjaye though (the second question mark is more a style thing; there's no reason that'd be obvious unless you had a history with Feysal).

To answer your questions: everywhere and yes if he's town.

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Preponderance of evidence, Nacho.

More votes for Anxiety.

Have you stopped thinking we're scum yet, Magua?

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Also, reading Saporient's claim, I suspect that their scum team probably consists of people who are inactive or fairly weak because of the failure to come up with at least a reasonable claim for their question to the mod.

Self-watcher is something that does straddle the line between active and passive so it doesn't strike me as that unreasonable? Given the flip, it might even have been a more plausible explanation than the real one.

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My assumption was that the lie is that they get no result when no one visits them, which is contrary to both shinori's and shadow1's results when they aren't roleblocked.

Nope, that seems fine to me given their ability was a passive. The lie was that Edd obviously targeted Sapo Night 2.

That is correct, Tammy.

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Stop ignoring me, Magua.

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The only thing I see from you is that you don't like that I'm not seeing Mina-town from your slot, and that you (unsurprisingly) think using a burden of proficiency argument on you is bunk.

Consider me disagreeing.

Why is it unsurprising that I don't think your basic argument would ever apply to Mina? Don't think you have any sort of meaningful Minameta that would suggest she'd be less cool as scum either and and yet you're telling me that you don't find it the least bit relevant that I'm claiming it manifestly isn't true?

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That was already implicit in your last post; what is so hard about responding to the actual thing I'm saying instead of engaging in these boring generalities? You calling me scum in no way means I can't put forward a good argument that your suspicion is ill-founded.

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Magua, still think Scumbuck is town. Aside from anxijay, Jal and MoS are scum reads. Now respond to the actual things I've been saying.

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UNVOTE, VOTE: PINE

Jal was plenty scummy and oh, hey, Pine's barely bothering to play the game, which is also totally a scum tell for him. You can't be opposed to a Pinelynch, people.

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CES, Pine hasn't been online in 36ish hours + his posts between his 'catching up' here and elsewhere all seem small. So think he's struggling IRL time wise and the meta thing is nullified.

Don't be such a spoilsport. Totally ruining sweet lynchings. He obviously must've had some time given he agreed to replace in anyway. Jal/Pine is scum and they should be lynched.

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Why would you need to search the thread to come to that conclusion?

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Why would you need to search the thread to come to that conclusion?

Because it wasn't in the sample PM.

It shouldn't even be a question; sample PMs are irrelevant.

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I accept that it's probably going to end up happening and I'm not going to fight it but I won't join it either, sorry. Maybe if you had a better username.

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I think the only right course of action here is to just lynch the slot (and anyone who thinks this isn't a scum tell for Pine is pretty naïve.)

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Yeah, yeah, you're naïve, I know, you don't have to remind me.

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I had a leaning scum read on jal, but this is not a reliable scum tell for pine though I will say its odd he replaced in if he wasn't going to have time, and that shoot I forgot to bookmark is a pretty reliable scum tell anyway, but replacing out isn't a scum tell. I've been in three games where pine replaced out and two were town where one was scum.

A sample size of 3 is irrelevant (and 1 out of 3 is just average anyway, so it's not a real sign it's not). Pine dislikes and lurks as scum.

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Fairly sure the "ace up my sleeve" was supposed to refer to being Jaime Lannister and wasn't a PR softclaim.

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Thor is being really obvious, damn.

Let's not waste any more time and string him up.

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Vote the scumbag, Lyanna.

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Replacements are making this game surprisingly easy.

Anxiety, Thor, AV, scum the lot of 'em.

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Okay, recap for myself
Thor = Jal who was obvtown, check
AurorusVox = MoS who was looking charttown, check
Timeater = The VT town slot check

I'm sorry was someone else claiming all the replacements were obvscum? Minimum you just don't give up do you? Speaking of naive where's your emotional partner or did she catch the same disaster in Dreamland that Quilly got steamrolled under?

Not all the replacements - just Thor, AV and Anxiety. CES is busy.

(You only think Jal is obvtown because she was smart enough to stick to the stuff she had genuine opinions about; this is multiball, you know. Note how this theory explains the weird Edd interactions.)

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By the way, in case it wasn't obvious to some people, CES has been doing all the posting this day phase, and will probably continue to do so for a long time. To be brutally honest, I'm not willing to invest significant amounts of time and energy into this game, because doing so would pretty much completely screw me over in RL right now. There's a reason the only alternative to this situation for me was not playing in the first place.

However, just a post-and-run...

Still waiting for you to explain how I look like scum in any way. I know this is a Mina and CES slot and that neither of them like to explain their reads ever...oh, wait, actually I believe the opposite, but, hey, I'm probably wrong.

Have you played with CES before? How do you feel he'd react as town if he was convinced you were scum? What kind of arguments has he made in your experience in that situation?

Also, Zdenek is one of my strongest town reads, particularly since I've seen him as both alignments and this feels

much

more like his town play--furthermore, even if he's scum playing superbly, he's obviously genuine in his Thor suspicions. The fact that Thor didn't pick up on this in the first place was already off, but now his taking quotes from ASoS and using superficial meta like "he attacked me for changing a read in both games!" against Zdenek looks like scum hiding behind an "evidence"-based case and ignoring context. (There are other reasons I'm okay with our Thor vote, but other people have touched on them, and I don't feel like obliging his "No one is allowed to suspect me at all without REASONS! No, those reasons aren't good enough. You have to format them like a case, and then unvote me after I respond to each of them" whining. Mind you, I'm confused by why Thor is being so moody this game, regardless of his alignment--it seems somewhat out of character from what I remember of him, so I suppose it could be a clumsy AtE, but he should know that crap like "PROVE that I'm scum" gets you lynched.) Zdenek was a

robot

in

ASoS

, and was only somewhat better in AFFC. Town!Zdenek in GvE had weird theories and tunneled for stretchy reasons, but was a lot more passionate and earnest.

Speaking of absurdities, watching this Thor wagon has been a constant experience of what-the-hell. No way I'm joining that, even to save my own life, even though I currently hate him for that speedlynch for yucks quip. You could not think of anything more discouraging to post, could you? Since seeing that I have done no more than skimming along. I don't much care to see what sort of abuse is in store for me in those posts I did not read.

Um...in case you decide to get over your fit and start reading

this

game while you're actively posting onsite, where exactly is your sudden confidence that the Thor wagon is absolutely terrible (to the point that you wouldn't vote him over yourself and that you're too discouraged to bother contributing to this game given that we have the

audacity

to wagon him)?

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Would rather lynch Thor out of the lot. Jal read town to me, but there's only so much BS I can take from someone.

UNVOTE: AurorusVox
VOTE: Thor665

Could you elaborate on what you mean by BS?

*eyebrow*

You know better than to make ad hominem attacks as town, Timeater.

What is it with replacements in this game insisting on killing my townreads on their slots?

Could you elaborate on what you mean by...um...everything in this post?

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Deadline's less than a day, people. Time to compromise onto Thor.

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It's not like Timeater's going to live very long if he is scum.

Now vote for Thor, get a scum flip and rejoice.

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I absolutely hate hate hate hate hate hate hate to say this, but Thor has been obvtown since replacing in. He is a good scumplayer, and I don't see even the more incompetent people fucking up in the way that Thor would be if he were scum. The only thing that he really had to accomplish for his scumteam upon not replacing in, unless Feysal is his partners, is to not draw fire and to allow the town to continue being somewhat apathetic in the lynch. Thor replaces in, he draws a lot of attention, he polarizes the town somewhat. Then, after someone who is on the wagon posts, he stops sheeping and attacks them even though there are no previous votes on them which is obviously going to draw attention from someone since he has not read the game so far. Why, as scum, would Thor do this? No one gave him fire for not reading the game, no one criticized him for jumping on the Feysal wagon. Why wouldn't he stay on? He would be completely justified, and questioning elsewhere couldn't have been THAT hard, and even if Feysal wasn't his partner, the flip itself wouldn't really give him that much to defend. If Feysal was his partner, there really wouldn't be a reason for him to jump on without him having plans to jump off, so that situation is ruled out pretty handily. Then there's a bunch of votes on Thor for GOD KNOWS WHAT REASON, and Thor continues being his normal thor self because he really doesn't give a fuck. Doesn't stop being cheeky (which scumThor can do, believe it or not), and he doesn't stop poking and various players even after he's called them obvtown (which means he's just saying that to adjust your position, but apparently I am the only one who can see when Thor is lying).

OR he made a bad attack on Zdenek and has been doing damage control. The talk of motivation is dull and irrelevant since we both know Thorscum's going to be thinking about the long game and actually getting stuff done is very much a feasible approach in that respect. You have to assume Thor is playing badly here anyway, so why should we rule out Thorinadvertentlyobvscum based on him generally being competent scum?

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Though, seriously, tell you what, I'll lulz hammer right now if you tell me your take on the Zdenek/Thor back and forth? Who do you think is scoring more points there and why? Because I feel I am blatant winning and am being ignored, and I think everyone voting me can't explain their case because there isn't one, and I might be down to slam Feysal and call it a scumbuddy rush to save - but only if I'm right in that perception.

This is the worst excuse ever to set up a quickhammer on someone you've been calling town and who hasn't even claimed (particularly since you're asking someone who just called you obvtown and is out for Feysal's blood).

You apparently thought Feysal was super-town because Zdenek voted him (despite being multiball), and now you're willing to vote him solely because you wouldn't be a counterwagon unless he was scum? Furthermore, this depends on whether you scored more "points" on Zdenek? (Personally, I don't even care who's "winning" the debate or doing a better job of arguing their points. In fact, part of what bugs me about your posts is that your arguments feel very mechanical. I just think Zdenek's posts look like town and yours look like scum--although part of this is based on CES's confidence, because usually when he's REALLY confident as opposed to just stubborn, he's right.)

If you want to make it super-easy for us to get you lynched tomorrow (because right now, it's like pulling teeth), then go ahead. But I actually ISO'd Feysal today, and have gone from thinking he's an acceptable compromise lynch to a bad one. If you only look at the surface and the pattern his actions fall into, he looks like a good target, because he's inactive, gets overemotional, has given up on defending himself, and has singlemindedly tunneled on Starbuck's slot. But when I look at the actual details of his posts more closely, I feel that he's being genuine about having trouble keeping up with this game and being angry that his reads are ignored. (I can give more concrete examples if it'll sway anyone, since I realize "gut" is kind of weak. But Feysal isn't the kind of player I believe can

fake

rage.) Also somewhat null because this is multiball, but I buy a lot of his scumhunting throughout the middle of D1.

Seriously. Do you want me to quote posts by Lyanna and Zdenek actually saying why you're scummy? Particularly since you seem to keep pretending that Zdenek in particular never argued any points against you beyond "Thor should be playing better than this" when he repeatedly explains just why he finds your vote on him scummy, and Lyanna has got into a wall-off with you.

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Thor, so are you saying that you asked Nacho his thoughts on you vs. Zdenek just for your personal edification? That threat to hammer Feysal if Nacho reassured you that you were totally making Zdenek look like Barack Obama in the first presidential debate--it wasn't true?

Also, how much of this game have you read? And do you have a reason for thinking Feysal is town in a vacuum, not just "People's reasons for suspecting Feysal are bad"?

I was going to tell you why I suspected you

again

, Thor, but then I remembered this:

Why am I such an obv. scumbag?
I would expect Mina to want to scream that one from the heavens to prove how clever she is, so...?

And I think I should learn to control my raging ego and not show off.

To add to Lyanna's point, I'll add that I wouldn't have minded if you found Zdenek's interpretation of Feysal's meta suspicious, but then you 1) pushed that one point beyond all proportion, acting as though he was confirmed scum, and 2) seemed not to have noticed that the rest of Zdenek's play was town-motivated, or that those kind of opinions aren't out of character for him.

(Tyene, remind me to link to that article if I somehow end up in a game with MagnaofIllusion again and he goes, "You've just announced that you refuse to respond to my point-by-point rebuttal of your post, or to interact with me in anyway? That means I win, because you've given up!" Speaking of which, I think I'd be less confused if this was MoI and not Thor. I'm surprised to see someone who says "BullSmurf" with a straight face be so abrasive and irritable this game. Link to a scum game where he played similarly to this--ideally with an explanation as to how--by the way? And while you're at it, the game where Timeater swore off making personal attacks ever?)

I'm not StefanB-level confident that Feysal is a mislynch, Nacho. (My weak gut town reads--as opposed to my

strong

gut town reads--aren't super-reliable, and I might be severely underrating his scum game.) I'd also feel a lot better if he wasn't using his temper tantrum as an excuse to avoid the thread. And I believe that you believe in your case on Feysal.*

But this post, in particular, looks genuine--the bolded as well as other comments he's made feel as though he's genuinely angry that he can't keep up with the game, and in more of a town "not enough time to scumhunt" way). It's also the unbridled rage he manifests at having his Starbuck case doubted, and his reaction to the people voting him for what he sees as stupid reasons (yes, I'm a hypocrite for finding it scummy when Thor does it, but I think this is player- and context-dependent). Even when Feysal is scum, he isn't duplicitous when it comes to his emotions. I agree with Tammy that his first couple of posts were bad, but later on, it seemed as though he was trying to read people (although yes, multiball). This post is pretty solid, for example. His greenknight reread wasn't as bad/confirmation-biasy as I'd remembered it being at the time, either.

My other half also thinks Feysal is a suboptimal lynch due to being generally easy to read--therefore, if we're

not

confident on his alignment yet, we should wait a day phase or so for it to become obvious one way or another.

*Since you said you wanted people's reads on you: at the time, I felt as though your reaction to the Choose kind of cleared you, since you seemed genuinely eager to get chosen and helped the wagon along. Since then, I had some niggles based on your inactive period and based on a couple of things you've said that felt a bit forced/overconfident, but found you protown overall...but it takes a lot of energy and stress for me to decide if someone's scum, so it's a waste for me to expend it on you.

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Thor, if all you have for me is flippant obtuseness and whining, then I'm not going to bother engaging with you, just yelling, "Lynch Thor! Lynch Thor! Lynch Thor!" over and over again. If you'd taken the effort you've expended chasing down anyone who looks at you funny to explain every point they mean and clogging the thread with quote walls, and used it to read the game (or at the very least, the players you claim to find obvscum/obvtown), then you would not be in this mess in the first place. You sound increasingly as though your only goal is self-preservation.

I've hinted at my reasons in my posts. If you can't find them, I don't care.

You're claiming that Feysal is town because according to you, the entire case against Feysal is based solely on connections to flipped scum (which isn't actually true). But you haven't said anything to show you've so much as read a single post by Feysal. Feysal can be scum and still fit as a partner to both scumteams. Never mind that Zdenek has already called you on your moving the goalposts re: your Feysal read.

And I only asked for a scum game because Tyene said you played

like this

as

scum

? Duh?

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Magua, you should move your vote to Thor. Your reasons for suspecting him are a lot stronger than those for suspecting Feysal.

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Oh, a random question:

AurorusVox, what made you decide that Timeater of all people was the best person in the game to declare your bestest buddy ever and sheep blindly? Particularly since he'd just replaced in?

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Magua

I'd consider it if the deadline were more than 4 hours away. Thor wagon isn't happening in the next 4 hours. Agree that the case on Feysal isn't that strong, but Feysal lynch is way above no lynch at this point.

I would have felt a lot better about you if you'd stuck to your guns and said that you thought the case on Feysal is stronger for X reasons...considering you'd ranked him as more suspicious than Thor before. You voted Feysal when both wagons were very viable. Clearly deadline isn't the reason your vote is where it is.

(Also, apparently, hydraing with CES has turned me into him. This is a frightening development.)

p-edit: well, that's that. At least he probably would have claimed earlier if he was town and had something important to share.

And Thor, that's it. I know you're scum. You know I know you're scum. Interacting with you is completely unproductive, because you clearly don't believe anything you're arguing. Now the tricky part will just be convincing other people of it tomorrow.

(more I wanted to say, but hitting send before threadlock)

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Regfan, for tomorrow: your argument for why Thor is town is that he stuck to a bad Zdenek case a really, really long time. But I think not only is that

not

a town tell, but it's a huge scumtell. Thor doesn't seem tunneled on Zdenek; he seems like he has a couple of minor "points" against him, and is more interested in getting people to acknowledge that

Thor

sounds intelligent and smart for writing it, rather than that Zdenek is scum. Read this post by Lyanna, because I agree with every word she says about Thor in it. I haven't played with Thor recently, so this isn't a meta read; I've just seen strong scum do that. (It's how Faraday and I caught Magua as scum in

Strategy Mafia

, for example. It's also the only way I have a hope of catching Faraday!scum. Many people find it hard to fake changing their minds naturally.)

Furthermore, his conviction in his Zdenek-scum and Feysal-town cases looks really, REALLY fake. Everyone has already explained why his Zdenek case and defence thereof was bad, but he also called Feysal town solely because Zdenek voted him. Then he started acting as though he had the strongest Feysal found Feysal town. Then he claimed he found Feysal town because connections-based cases are shallow--in other words, that Feysal is town

because

fitting as a scum partner to both teams doesn't mean he's scum. When I kept saying "this isn't a good reason to suspect someone" =/= "this is a good a reason to

clear

someone" and asked for reasons he found Feysal

himself

town, he responds with, "Sarcastic quip sarcastic quip obtuseness, how could you

possibly

find me scummy for this?"

This conviction is more unnatural when you realize that

he's admitted to not having read the thread

.

I also see a difference between asking people to explain a case on him and being focused almost

exclusively

on trying to discredit anyone's suspicions of him and ignoring scumhunting for it. I mean, do you not

notice

that people have tried to get him to support his reads, and he brushes off the questions and turns everything around to be "How can you be so dumb as to suspect me for this?" It's a smokescreen.

(The lack of claim from Feysal makes me think you'll be sheeping Plumamma tomorrow, though. Because I'd like to think he wouldn't be this petty as town.)

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EBWOP: By "Then he started acting as though he had the strongest Feysal found Feysal town," I meant, "Then he started acting as though he had the strongest Feysal read ever."

Thor, I'd worry more about being wrong if instead of repeatedly telling me how dumb I'll feel when you flip town, you just

play like town and try to find the scum

. Because if you're town, then sorry, but you've been playing horrendously and childishly so far. I thought there was a chance you were just reaction-testing by "I'm convinced Feysal is obvtown/I have crappy reasons for actually

thinking

he's obvtown/no, I won't explain what these reasons are/no, I haven't actually read the thread." But you've had plenty of time to step up your game.

Magua, I thought it was obvious from the context that I meant deadline wasn't the reason your vote was on Feysal

instead of Thor

.

Timeater, sorry to break this to you, but at least two out of three of your reads are hilariously wrong.

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Thor was at 3 of 9 votes. I would've been 4. 5 more votes would not have appeared in four hours is the sum and totality of why I did not vote Thor.

That was not the case when you voted for Feysal originally though. Why didn't you vote for Thor then?

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Vote: Thor

Could go AV or Anxiety too.

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Zdenek, you do realize Tierce knows Feysal's no good at scum, right? Signalling to him or counting on him for long-term success seems imprudent.

Kortul, I'd guess that he didn't know who the Stannisians were given the specific Neighborizer part of the role. Rest is fairly variable.

Not opposed to Shinori claiming his result.

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Hold on a moment. Am I hallucinating or was "Specific Neighbouriser not there when Feysal was lynched? The impression I had was that he was only lynched as "Informed Traitor", and this neighborizer thing was confusing me until I went back and looked at the flip. Did I just not look at it right the first time?

Ask Faraday?

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You're giving both Jal and mockingjaye too much credit for being vaguely genuine when they both deliberately narrowed their focus in a multiball situation.

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AV, if you want to just confess, that's fine too.

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Why aren't you outing your result, Shinori? There's a clear consensus in favour.

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It was a waste regardless.

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(More votes for Thor.)

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but the point that Magua makes about Feysals role likely not knowing partners and instead only being able to 'neighbourize partners' actually makes a significant amount of sense given what the flip says

I said that first, just fyi.

Decide the order, Regfan.

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Magua, you're ignoring the fact that the scum teams seem to be 3+traitor and 2+2. Combined with the higher player count, it is entirely reasonable to think all meaningful town power has already been outed.

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He was tunneling Tierce earlier. Don't be so transparently uninterested in people's alignments.

2+2

Where's this coming from?

Aegon being split up.

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That could just mean there's a traitor. Remember Always On? It's the kind of thing where flavor can be somewhat misleading of a reality that still abides by the letter of BB's role PM.

2+2 is viable, yes, but it could also be a similar team to Stannis. Though as far as I remember, Faraday likes to play around with asymmetry, if not in numbers necessarily, in organization of the scumteams.

Zor doing that was just bad though + Varys and Connington have already flipped with no indication of traitorness.

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Almost entirely unrelated to latest developments.

Unvote, vote: AV

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UNVOTE: AurorusVox

This is just to prevent a hammer. There's stuff I want to say (particularly in regards to Thor), and I don't have time to post anything substantial until tomorrow.

Also, Regfan, I understand that I make people a lot less paranoid than CES does, but I feel somewhat annoyed at being constantly pressured to be more active given the reasons behind me playing this game in the first place. I posted very actively at the end of Day 4 (which was only a week ago), and ended up missing a class because of it. I've been following along and giving my input to CES, but I would really, really rather not post too much--both because Mafia stresses me out too much, and because it will literally ruin my life. I'm not even joking. (Also, leaving aside when CES was in France, I wasn't significantly more active in Abarat, and you've seen me hydra with Faraday in games where I didn't post once. This isn't an alignment tell.)

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Benmage was obvtown enough and not getting lynched. Scum might have easily disagreed as to how town he looked and decided they definitely wanted him gone if he was opposingscum too. It's not that weird a kill.

Regfan, just read me? We've hydraed together as scum; that should surely let you determine my alignment.

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Tierce's catch seems pretty solid and seems far more relevant than the stray roleblocker question.

Unvote, vote: Thor

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I was completely convinced that AurorusVox was scum (and was rolling my eyes at Regfan's unvote, particularly since MoS thinking he was a roleblocker would have made him confirmed scum for targeting Shadow) until Tyene's catch. But that means that Lyanna certainly tried to target Shadow on N1. That crumb is completely unambiguous. Although Lyanna could have hypothetically been roleblocked, its failure is a very strong point in AV's favour (since if he's scum, it would be dangerous to use that role when the other team might kill him). Shadow is pretty much the only person I'd buy MoS targeting on N1, and upon an ISO, I don't find MoS as scummy as I'd remembered him being. But I'm not sure I even have 4+

scum

reads (as opposed to unsure/PoE reads) without AV. (Also, I won't repeat Tyene's rant, but AV playing like this as

town

is pretty low.)

Shinori, why did you target Pandora last night? (What is it with useful investigative roles wasting their abilities on the towniest people in the game?) Also, you never really explained your comment about Staeg's alignment being contingent on bvoigt's. Do you remember what made you think this, yet?

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To be honest, the roleblocking question could have just been MoS ensuring that his action went though, or questioning whether Shadow's indecison was due to his results being ambiguous (at least from the perspective of someone who didn't know he was rolestopped). Or making sure that if bvoigt flipped town, Shadow wouldn't go, "Oops, I guess I actually WAS roleblocked" the next day. I think it's pretty null.

I had a crazy theory that AV is the kind of rolestopper who can't block kills at first, but CES talked me down from it. That would make no sense whatsoever for Aegon and almost as little sense for Stannis. (Why not just kill him yourself if you can make him untargetable, rather than prevent the other team from being roleblocked? There's no point performing a protown night action when odds are slim that you'll ever prove you took it.)

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Me, too. I'm in the middle of a big post, but every time I ISO someone, I go, "eh...but he and/or his predecessor sounds kind of town here." I'm afraid this is a repeat of Abarat where every single one of the scum towards the end of the game is among my town reads.

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EBWOP: um..,that "me too" was in response to the drawing board comment, Now I'll stop spamming until I hae something productive to say.

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Stuff from a few pages back:

Re: the Benmage kill: I agree I wasn't expecting him to die, but if you don't think he was killed for being trusted (or possibly), what alternate explanation is there? I checked his posts a few days ago, and IIRC, he didn't really attack one person strongly (other than Feysal). His most recent reads were somewhat vague. He did seem to be developing a scum read on Thor, but if Thor is scum, then he's much more likely to be responsible for the Lyanna kill (and I don't see Thor killing Benmage, for the same reason Magua said he wouldn't).

On a fluffier note:

Regfan, just read me? We've hydraed together as scum; that should surely let you determine my alignment.

Moments like these are when I'm grateful to be inside this hydra rather than on the outside looking in.

======================================================================================

Mina, really what I want from you are reads and stances with a small amount of reasoning behind it, I just need to be able to follow your thought process and understand where you're heads at because when you've shown as much in the past I've been able to read you correctly.

Fair enough--although given that this is multiball, there's a chance this will be more useful in guiding nightkills than in helping you read me:

-

Regfan

is confirmed town (not that that came as any shock).

Pandora

's overall play as well as claim look town, although I feel like I haven't been rigorous enough with this read. I keep desperately clinging to a faint hope that

Plum

will flip scum at the end of the day, but there's no way they'd be this protown and active in a walking dead slot. Had like two seconds of paranoia when

Zdenek

claimed Jeyne, but when I realized there was no actual scum motivation for it (and "maybe that's what he'd WANT people to think" was a stupid motivation), I went back to being resolute in my town read on him.

4nxi3ty

is not for lynching any time soon, because his namecop is confirmed and he's very likely a JOAT (that was Randyll Tarly's fakeclaim in AFFC, although his abilities weren't the same, and Faraday has a sick, sick obsession with filling his set-ups with as many in-jokes referring to past games as possible, no matter how cruel and pointless); his terrible investigation as well as mockingjaye's equally terrible roleblock--though, you know, terrible--are consistent with their stated reads in the thread.

-I actually went through a period of time today where I seriously suspected

Tyene

, based on her reaction to being pressured and the way she felt kind of floaty and follow-the-crowd, but now I'm back to thinking she's town. A combination of things, but in large part her reaction to AV. This is palpable town rage, not just "scumhunting for the other faction."

-

BBmolla

's play makes some sense as a traitor signaling to his team, but is kind of needlessly out there for a full member of either Stannis or Aegon (never mind that if he's Stannis, he'd have to be Informed somehow, or else he's outing himself to the other scumteam). I'm pretty pissed off by the fact that he deliberately does nothing whatsoever and then goes, "Look, I'm doing nothing whatsoever! If I was scum, I would try." That's putting his meta over his win con if he's town. There are a bunch of questions I should ask him when it isn't midnight and I wasn't supposed to have studied instead of indulging Regfan. He has to fullclaim soon, but now isn't the time to lynch him.

-Already explained my read on

AurorusVox

.

Shinori

has played his role in a horribly antitown fashion, but I ISO'd him, and he feels kind of lost, as though he doesn't actually have an agenda behind anything he's saying. (Disclaimer: whenever I catch myself using soft hippy justifications for why a player

feels

town, he invariably flips scum--see Feysal.) Just the way he blurted out his claim, and asked the question about investigative and killing roles, and made an aside about how badly he was playing when asking town for feedback. Sadly, I think he was playing a lot "better" in terms of activity/protown case making in Abarat (where he was scum), but he seemed really nervous/high strung/concerned with appearances. Here, he's a lot more relaxed and floaty (although it could just be null disengagement with the game).

-Leaves Magua, kortul, Timeater, and Thor. I deliberately gave

Thor

some space today to see what he did when people weren't attacking him and he had nothing to whine about. I'm not as confident on Thor as I was at the end of Day 4--by which I mean, I'm no longer caught up in the heat of the moment and all "DIE, SCUM, DIE!" I still think that he's the best lynch. (I should really be working on an assignment, so since we're not lynching any time soon, I'll save the actual follow-up on Thor for another evening.) I kind of agree that Jal has some town-sounding comments, but most of them are just the kind of soft questions anyone can ask in multiball. I also hated his earlier stance on our wagon.

-Q: has anyone seen

Timeater

as scum before? CES and I were staunchly in the Starbuck-town camp early on, but we're reconsidering given the slot's inactivity, TE's wonky reads and uncharacteristic lack of engagement, and the lack of better places places left to look. In retrospect, Starbuck's first posts were pretty scummy, actually, and a lot less emotional than what little I've seen of her play. The VT claim still seems needlessly bold for scum that early. Question for TE: you called yourself obvtown. Why specifically do you believe you're obvtown here?

-

Magua

is near the top of my scum list by attrition, but I can't pin anything concrete on him--whenever I ISO him, I doubt this read, because he's making good points and seems to believe a lot of what he's arguing (for example, re: massclaiming). I feel like he's been somewhat passive and low-key, which is a warning sign in multiball; he's not as passionate, confrontational or obvtown as he usually is. Also, his suspect list is a bit safe (not fond of his attacks on Timeater and BBmolla for essentially playing badly). Magua, why aren't we on your scumlist?

-Actually starting to suspect

kortul

a lot more than I did before, now that I'm looking at him more closely. His reaction to Stefan's lynch isn't as townish as I remember, although there are nuggets of towniness buried in his ISO. He fits the pattern of the kind of reasonable but middle-of-the-road scum player who blends into the background. Don't like his post today talking about MoS--it felt a bit contrived. His intro posts have a lot about the theory of choosing and set-up speculation, which is common for scum trying to ease themselves into a game by starting with safe topics. If he's scum, more likely Stannis, based on how much he talks about Sal and bvoigt, but is he clever enough to fake this?

============================================================

tl;dr version

Town: Regfan, Pandora, 4nxi3ty, Zdenek, Tyene
Pending: BBmolla, Shinori
Scumpool: Thor, kortul, Magua, Timeater (least sure of TE)

Odds of more than half of the suriving scum being in the scum pool, given how much I suck at this game: 0%

Note that none of these reads have anything to do with connections to flipped scum.

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EBWOP: Forgot to add AV and Plum. They can both go into town, although a few of the town reads deserve asterisks by their name--like, the math says I have to be embarrassingly wrong about someone.

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Maybe you're a lot more optimistic than I am. In my experience, PoE is never as airtight as people think it is (either because the town gets paranoid and lynches someone who should be confirmed, or because one of the scum infiltrates the cleared pool).

Bottom line: even one mislynch can make a difference. You don't want to be that mislynch!

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Everyone should vote for either Thor or Timeater.

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Oh, go away. My comment is serious and you're just doing dumb posturing.

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How are people not seeing Thorscum here? That back-and-forth with Zdenek was undoubtably an intentional distraction/waste of our time.

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How are people not seeing Zdenekscum here? That back-and-forth with Thor was undoubtedly an intentional distraction/waste of our time.

Except it'd just be a weird play coming from Zdenek, whereas I know it's your style to do stuff like that.

I'll hammer when it comes to it, Plum.

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Regfan, give me some Thorvotes. Timeater's not going to make it to endgame anyway (unless he towns it up in later days which pretty much requires him to be town!) Letting Thor live is just going to make this thread more unreadable with pointless Thor-Zdenek walls and then he'll kill off the competent players and he'll be able to browbeat the weaker players into not lynching him. Trust me here, Regfan, if only just this once.

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No, but I do find myself saying "god, can we kill Thor now". I see no reason why I should even care about Zdenek's case.

Let me write you a poem:
Cases are boring.
You're scum.
Please get lynched.

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And when I flip town, what then? Hypothetically?

Then there'll still be 4 scum left to catch rather than 3. What's the point of the question? I'm not doing much in the way of long-term strategizing that would be influenced by your flip.

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Feysal clearly believed Starbuckscum anyway.

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Pandora, if you're serious about making sure someone other than Timeater is lynched, why not move to Thor? Pretty much everyone who is not currently voting Zdenek thinks that Zdenek is town and a terrible, terrible lynch; your vote is useless there with so little time before deadline. If you joined our wagon, it'd be six Starbuck to four Thor, at least.

=========

AurorusVox, I have questions for you. (Assuming day ends before he gets back from V/LA and we're not around tomorrow, someone please bug him to answer this.)

Right, well. I think if Timmy was scum who just waded in and claimed, he wouldn't have fucked it up and softclaim something that someone else has already claimed, since he would have been provided with a fakeclaim. I don't see the reason scum would ditch a fakeclaim like that, especially not when you've just replaced in.

So...you thought that Timeater was town (and were therefore sheeping every read of his and obnoxiously kissing up to him) because you got the impression that he fucked up his softclaim.

To recap, that's literally the only reason that you called Timeater obvobvobvtown. He didn't make a single post that you personally felt was town, and you're perfectly fine with his lynch now. But you thought he was close to confirmed town based on the softclaim fuck-up. Is that a fair characterization of your opinion?

Let me ask you this. Never mind it being harder for scum to fuck up a fakeclaim in this game. If he's town, then

how the hell can he fuck up his softclaim in the first place

? What did you think his motivation was, as town, for softclaiming something different from his actual role? Please explain.

Also, how did you realize that scum had fakeclaims?

Also also, the conclusions in your reread feel somewhat contrived and tailored to fit your current opinions (for example, the leading wagon Timeater not being a town read anymore). When you first read the beginning of the game and decided Salamence was worth voting for, why didn't you share all that stuff about Starbuck looking scummy and Minimum looking townish then? (Never mind that our thoughts on Choose strategy could not be more null and unrelated to alignment.)

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PEdit: Minimum, are you able to follow where Pandoras stance and read on Starbuckscumhuntertimeater comes from?

Nope. Quilford has her as null in #1136 and Shadoweh mostly talks around Starbuck without giving a direct opinion on her (apart from some early pushing). When Shadoweh does push Starbucktown starting D4, I can't say her reasoning resonates with me either. Wouldn't be surprised if Pandora were scum with Timeater here.

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*sigh*

I'd vote Timeater here, but I know CES will be around before the deadline tomorrow.

With thirteen hours left in the day, Pandora, do you really think there's any chance of a Zdenek lynch? You're just leaving your vote there as a protest against what you think is the inevitable TE wagon?

(Incidentally, I disagree with CES on what your interactions with Timeater imply. You could be scum white-knighting Timeater for town cred, but I highly doubt you'd do this as his scumbuddy. You're spending much more effort paying lip service to the fact that you think he's town than actually voting/acting in a way that would prevent his lynch...which is the exact opposite of what Timeater's actual scumbuddy would do.)

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=============[]
[]=============

Unvote, vote: Timeater

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Hey, AurorusVox. I'm sorry to break this to you, but I have bad news for you.

You're no longer confirmed town. Sorry.

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...actually, this might just stall the day, and I'm probably not going to get a more interesting reaction than, "Um...okay?" from AV, so I might as well stop being dramatic.

Full disclosure: we have a day action. (No, I'm not sharing what it is.) Immediately after the lynch was posted on N5, we received a PM saying that we'd been motivated and could use our action twice tomorrow.

Aside from the mystery of Pandora's "Other" result being resolved, that hints at how Lyanna's ability worked. Given a

day

ability was notified at the beginning of the

following

night, I assume it's the same for night actions. So Shadow couldn't have had a double-action on N1. He probably would have been informed at the beginning of N2 if he could torture twice (if Tammy's hint means he was her N1 target).

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It says nothing to say that Shadow1 was not rolestoppered Night 1. That's the point. That means we're stuck evaluating AurorusVox based on his play and claim alone.

Before, we were clearing him because Shadow's reaction to Tammy's crumb seemed to suggest that something really did interfere with Tammy's claim (like a rolestopper). But it turns out that Shadow wouldn't have known either way.