Mini 368: Town Of Suspicion - Game over!

[petroleumjelly]

Official "Random" Guess at the Scum Group: Thok, Machiavellian-Mafia, and mith

Vote: Thok

.

Of Note (Emphasis Mine)

You are a vanilla townie, and you were part of the town when

the mafia

invaded... You win when there is

no more mafia members

left in the town.

I'm guessing there is only group of scum (Mafia) in this game.

PPE: Dangit Alky, you took my vote. Guess it doesn't matter since Thok is scum anyways, though.

[petroleumjelly]

Why should, at this juncture, especially one of your OPENING posts, should this matter? The only people who should WORRY about competing scum groups... well... are the scum.

Here is a question back at you: Why shouldn't I make observations that I see?

From the win condition we were given, I can surmise that we are only dealing with a single Mafia group.

Pointing this out nips speculation of Cults, Serial Killers, and opposing Mafia groups right in the bud. Such theories often mislead towns in the short run (and often the long run) in any case. I will be less inclined to believe we are dealing with multiple scum groups unless we have an indication later in the game that we are dealing with them (at which point I will be very displeased at the wording of the town win condition).

On a less "tellish" scale, you piled a second vote on Thok very quickly. Quite strange for an early bandwagon.

Quite strange for you not to notice that I was already writing my post before I placed the "second vote". I was in the process of previewing my post originally to make sure my quote tags and underlining emphasis were right, when I saw that Alky had already voted Thok. Since we're all big boys in this game, I found no reason to change my random vote simply because it happened to also be a second vote.

[petroleumjelly]

You then become somewhat hypocritical and say that your speculation is better (or more pertinent) than most:

Pointing this out nips speculation of Cults, Serial Killers, and opposing Mafia groups right in the bud. Such theories often mislead towns in the short run (and often the long run) in any case.

And what you just did is what? You proposed a theory about killing groups.

There are differences in my proposition than the other propositions I mentioned. Firstly, we know for a fact there is a Mafia group in this game. This is a Regular Mini game, where bastard-moddery is not allowable. Secondly, we have a

specific reason

to disbelieve multiple scum groups, and that comes from the wording of the town win condition, as well as the wording of the townie role PM.

Ny stance is not hypocritical, because my opinion is an educated guess as opposed to mere speculation (such as, "Hmm, we might be dealing with a Cult this game", from which much argument could ensue when there would be no outward factual basis for the claim). If somebody seriously believes that it is more likely that there are multiple scum groups in this game as opposed to a single scum group, I would be interested to know.

Again, I find it odd that you have looked SO CLOSELY at the townie win condition. Reference:

(at which point I will be very displeased at the wording of the town win condition).

Maybe *I* am missing the boat here, but wasn't there a hard and fast rule...

"DON'T TRY AND OUTGUESS THE MOD?"

The reason I looked "so closely" at the win condition is because it is equivalent to the win condition for my role. I already had figured there was only going to be one Mafia group in this game before the thread was ever opened.

I don't consider this "outguessing" the Mod since my "guess" relies on information the Mod has already given us. I am not guessing at what I "think the Mod would put into the game", nor am I speculating as to the "general balance of the game", but rather, I am using the limited information we have to put out a theory as to the scum groups (not just the "killing" groups).

Now let me ask you:

Do you agree or disagree that there is one scum group in this game (and that that scum group is a Mafia group)?

[petroleumjelly]

I feel I should probably clarify on this:

Here is a question back at you: Why shouldn't I make observations that I see?

You normally should, however, If you're pro-town, your job is to hunt scum, cults, and serial killers. It doesnt matter how many there are.

Whether or not I believe this game contains solely mafia, multiple mafias, mafia and cult(s), mafia and SK, or some combination of scum is irrelevant to scum-hunting at the moment. It is irrelevant because

it will not affect whether or not I think people are scum on Day One

.

If I think somebody is acting scummy [especially on Day One], I normally don't think along the lines of

Hmm, hmm, X seems pretty scummy to me. But wait! Does X seem like they're being

Cult Leader

-scummy or does X seem like they're being

Mafia

-scummy? Or maybe they're being more

Serial Killer

-scummy...

Because in the end, scummy is scummy. And on Day One, that's good enough for me. That said,

later

in games, it may be that there a strategical advantage for the town to eliminate one scum group over another (and thus a reason to try to determine whether or not it is more or less likely for somebody to belong to a particular group of scum). But for now, what I think of the scum groups will not affect my play today (

unless

, I suppose, we obtain information which leads me to believe there is a more imminent danger from a seperate scum(group) which was not indicated in the town winning condition).

The reason for speculating on scum groups is more to gain reactions from the other players (do they disagree, do they wholeheartedly agree, do they tentatively agree, do they fail to give an opinion, etc.) which can all be looked at later in the game, than it is meant to shape the way a town hunts scum on Day One. I am not afraid to say that I think there is one scum group in the game, and that that scum group is a Mafia group, and I have presented my reasons for thinking so. If you disagree with me, I would like to see your reasons, rather than using the standby response of "Don't try to outguess the Mod".

[petroleumjelly]

LML, please answer my question:

Do you agree or disagree that there is one scum group in this game (and that that scum group is a Mafia group)?

And also, your attack on me that "I seem to have looked at the townie PM

too closely

" is absurd. I am an experienced player: of

course

I pay attention to the wording of my role PM's. One of the things I am

known

for is paying attention to small details (for example, if I get a power role of any sort, I usually ask whoever is modding

at least

two questions to clarify my role). Simply because

you

don't seem to know the winning condition for the town (jab purposeful) does not mean that others should not, or that they are "suspicious" because they do.

In fact, for as much as you call

me

out for paying attention to small things:

Religion is not allowed here,

Bah! No The List™? This is an outrage!

Here, we have an example of mith

reading the rules carefully

. How is that any different than reading the Townie PM carefully?

I am not more suspicious of mith (although he is obviously scum, as indicated in the Proposed Scum Group) because he has

read the rules of the game

, nor should I be. I honestly fail to understand how you are "suspicious" of me because I happen to have read and contemplated the townie role PM, and drawn a reasonable conclusion based on that knowledge (which you have yet to even

dispute

).

The reason for speculating on scum groups is more to gain reactions from the other players (do they disagree, do they wholeheartedly agree, do they tentatively agree, do they fail to give an opinion, etc.) which can all be looked at later in the game, than it is meant to shape the way a town hunts scum on Day One.

Logic? I call that flapdoodle.

It's GENERALLY used by the mafia to shape misconceptions about the town to the townsfolk. Remember, PJ, this is a game of limited info. Since we do have limited info, don't make assumptions that are no way clarafyable until the game is almost over.

Yes, this

is

a game of limited info. However, the wording of the townie role PM gives the town

more

info so far as I can see; that being that there is only one scum group in the game, and that that scum group is Mafia.

If you

disagree

with me, speak now or forever hold your peace.

[petroleumjelly]

I'll respond once more on the subject. All of these answers are obvious.

1) The first person to generally specualte OUT LOUD about killing groups is generally scum.

That "tell" does not apply to this game, then. You seriously can't expect a response to this. I point out what I see when I see it unless I find a reason not to.

2) By you stating it to everyone, even if you aren't scum, you give the scum info.

Who gets more info: scum or town? And do you seriously think the scum wouldn't have noticed the wording of the town role PM? In fact, it is possible that the wording of the

scum

role PM explicitly mentions that they only have to outkill the town. We don't know. The information I presented is nothing the scum couldn't have figured out on their own anyways. The level of play in this game

is

somewhat better than that of a potato, mind you.

2a) Since this was a "no-talk-night", you could be easily just TELLING your scumpartners something that you ascertained by combing through the townie PM as per the front page.

Did you screw that up

purposely?

Read the second post of the game again, LML:

There will be a no action night until everyone confirms. No night actions,

only those that can discuss at night can discuss amongst themselves.

I'm starting to think you threw that in there so we would subconsciously think you're town by going through the negative interpretation: namely, "LML says he didn't know that scum could nighttalk, therefore he must be town".

This

is why it's a

good thing

to read over the rules of games: to gain information to start off with. It is

very

relevant to games as to whether or not scum/masons/etc. are allowed to talk to each other before games begin, since they can strategize... whereas with night-talking disallowed, they have to go on the fly.

I am finding it hard to believe you failed to notice this rule, especially since the latest discussion has been focused on the information given by the Mod in the first few posts (which would make me

think

that everybody would at least glance over the rules and the Townie PM for

themselves

before contributing to discussion).

Can you explain why you made that statement without even reading up on the rules? In fact, that line is

directly above

the townie role PM. How on earth could you miss it?

My suspicions lie with what you said and how quick you said it.

I mentioned it because it was a topic of discussion which would help move the game out of the random phase. I said it "quickly" because I noticed it, and I could find no reason

not

to say it. If it doesn't hurt the town, and it doesn't help the scum, and it gets discussion going (as is obviated through

our

discussion), I fail to even see how you find it "suspicious".

[petroleumjelly]

Is there a reason I should unvote Thok?

He hasn't exactly contributed to discussion since his first post, and it's not as if Thok is in any danger: it takes seven to lynch, and the three votes on him are not nearly enough basis to even

consider

pushing for a claim. The level of play in this game pretty much assures that he is

not

going to be quicklynched or any such thing.

In any case, considering my scumgroup theory of {Thok, Machiavellian-Mafia, mith}, you asking for me to unvote Thok only helps solidify my suspicions.

Normally I'd vote for CES now, but I'm torn between him and MM for his self-vote. Either of you have an explanation?

Hmm. Maybe it's {Thok, Cogito Ergo Sum, mith}. My mind is still reasonably open.

[petroleumjelly]

Well, I was gettting ready to

respond

to your post, but lo and behold, there is nothing to actually respond to.

You are essentially voting for me (and encouraging others to do so) because I took the time to read the rules of the game, as well as the Townie role PM in detail.

Can you explain why you made that statement without even reading up on the rules? In fact, that line is directly above the townie role PM. How on earth could you miss it?

PJ.... you're definately smart enough here. Figure it out.

How about you tell me what I am supposed to "figure out" instead of you vaguely insinuating towards something?

Do you think I read that line incorrectly? It is very clear to me that all roles with night-talking abilities had the chance to talk to each before the game began, and I gained that information because

I took the time to read the rules

. Simply because

you

do not does not disqualify others from doing so. I am not understanding the "point" you are making here, and I

have

read the Invitational with Antraxscum.

[petroleumjelly]

And actually, the more I think about this argument, the stupider it seems to be. Here are some questions for LML:

1.) Why do you consider it "scummy" to suggest there is one scum group in the game, and that that scum group is mafia, when the town has been given reasonable information to believe that is so?

2.) [Complete WIFOM] Suppose I am part of the mafia group. What incentive would I have to make sure the town thinks there is only a mafia group? Doing so would only cut off my options

later

in the game, so that I could not claim Serial Killer at endgame, or try to confuse the town with "maybe there's a cult, we should start suspecting people who were 'cleared'!".

Subset question:

A.) What will I have gained if it is later shown that there are other scum, whether that entails a Serial Killer, Cult Leader, or something else (which would disprove my theory anyways)?

*****

Well. Could it be POSSIBLE that you would know the exact location of the townie PM (and the other references) because you obviously didn't read the townie PM elsewhere? (as in your Role PM?)

Now you are fishing.

I read the rules, and the opening posts. My memory has this odd quality of...

remembering things

, especially when I have just recently read them. Just like I remember that the opening posts were Thok, Al_Ko, Al_Ko, PJ, mith, LML, LML, PJ (I can't remember the next post off the top of my head right now, although I would wager it was a response from LML), I also remembered the placement of the townie role PM in the opening posts.

Are you trying to

find

reasons to be suspicious of me? I am not impressed.

[petroleumjelly]

I think our arguments boils down to this:

I am trying to speculate on the scum groups, and my speculation is (in my mind) perfectly reasonable since it is based on information the mod has given the town. You do not like speculation on scum groups (because you fear ulterior motives), so you find me suspicious.

You must have an amazing memory. I'm a teacher. I forget everything.. especially about the placeent of words on a page. Especially when I have more important things to remember.. like where I put my teeth.

My memory is selective, and certainly not amazing: I just happened to recall the general happenings of this particular game (I remember the Thok/Al_Ko/Al_Ko/PJ because the three of us were in scumchat talking about who would nab the first post, and from there, we had mith pop in asking LML a question who then responded and voted for me accompanied by a clarification post, after which I responded to LML. And I just checked back, and yes, LML did respond to me directly after that).

As for your teeth, they are currently embedded into my arm. You can take them back whenever you like.

[petroleumjelly]

Mmmm, Glork arms... *drools*

Where is Glorkish anyhow? He should seriously have signed up for this game. Tsk, tsk.

Mod

, can we please get prods on:
Seol
PookytheMagicalBear
Tyfo

It's possible that they don't know the game has started.

[petroleumjelly]

I wasn't waiting for anything in particular, Thok: there was just no reason for me to unvote you.

Unvote: Thok, Vote: Rosso Carne

. Rosso has clearly checked up on the game, but his last post did a net total of nothing. He could, at the very least, have commented on the debate LML and I were having at the time, or perhaps he could have slapped a random vote on somebody. He pretty much may as well have just not posted at all, at this point.

[petroleumjelly]

pj: Why leave it on? There was enough discussion to form better-than-random suspicions. I don't buy the bit about him not having contributed; the game was barely a day old.

When you asked me why I didn't unvote Thok, that was in Post 26 of the game. The discussion going on was solely between myself and LML: since I didn't think LML was very scummy in his argument (although I think he pressed it a bit too far), I didn't feel like voting for him. Nobody else had really "contributed" in the same sense, and since switching my vote would have been pretty much just as random as my initial random vote, there was no reason for me to move it around, especially when Thok was in absolutely no danger.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm, that's tell #2 going towards a possible mith-CES connection. I already pointed out the first:

Normally I'd vote for CES now, but I'm torn between him and MM for his self-vote. Either of you have an explanation?

"I

would

vote my partner, but I would much rather not."

And after we have LML coming in and voting mith, we have:

Also

OMGUS strongest FoS: LmL

for exaggeration and attacking me over my playstyle.

"You're attacking my partner! You're suspicious!"

As it is, I pretty much agree with LML's vote, and I might add my vote depending on mith's response. Also, I am getting the feeling that mith is

trying

to make keeping a random vote on Thok is somehow "suspicious", when in fact, there is nothing suspicious about it.

That said, I would like to see an answer to this question:

Why is it "suspicious" to keep a random vote on somebody if it takes seven to lynch, and there are only three votes on that person (none of them serious), and any other vote I would have placed would have been for just a random a reason anyways?

You are making it sound like I have an "obligation" to unvote if Thok reaches three votes during the random stage. That cannot be true, because then the obligation would fall on others into not placing a third random vote on Thok the first place, since that would result in Thok being at two votes anyways, thereby accomplishing nothing.

@ Alky: If M-M is seriously going to consider playing like Lloyd, bad, bad things will happen.

[petroleumjelly]

pj, pretty sure i said id hammah thok

Pretty sure that's your third contentless post in a row. Likin' my vote.

[petroleumjelly]

on an honesst scale, first inclination is pjscum. the case pj has against lml is unfounded and crap.

Since when did I make a case against LML? Aren't you the one usually telling other people to "read the thread"?

Still likin' my vote.

[petroleumjelly]

Gives LML a fishing rod.

I would suggest that Rosso neither confirm nor deny the above rant. If Rosso wants my vote to move elsewhere, not paying attention to the game isn't a good way to go about doing it.

[petroleumjelly]

What does bother me is that he felt like he had to justify keeping his vote on me (with a reason he now disavows about me not participating in the thread), and that PJ accused mith of asking PJ to unvote me, when mith didn't do that. (He asked for an explanation of the votes on me, but never requested that I was unvoted.)

Uh... let me go over that entire conversation again, then.

I don't find what petroleumjelly said initially (or in arguing with LML) particularly unreasonable. I do find it interesting that he is still voting for Thok, though.

In my vocabulary, “interesting” is usually just another way to say “slightly suspicious”. Keeping a random vote on somebody means nothing to me, especially when there was no

reason

to take it off.

This quote hints to me that mith may have wanted my vote off of you. I read comments like these to mean “well, you wouldn’t be suspicious if you weren’t still voting for Thok… but you’ll be just fine after you unvote”. Like he is trying to nudge me in the direction he wants me to go.

Is there a reason I should unvote Thok?

He hasn't exactly contributed to discussion since his first post, and it's not as if Thok is in any danger: it takes seven to lynch, and the three votes on him are not nearly enough basis to even consider pushing for a claim. The level of play in this game pretty much assures that he is not going to be quicklynched or any such thing.

In any case, considering my scumgroup theory of {Thok, Machiavellian-Mafia, mith}, you asking for me to unvote Thok only helps solidify my suspicions.

As I mentioned, it sounded like mith was trying to make it obligatory for me to have unvoted you simply to not look suspicious when somebody else puts on a third vote (which is silly).

pj: Why leave it on? There was enough discussion to form better-than-random suspicions. I don't buy the bit about him not having contributed; the game was barely a day old.

Pressing me

again

about my vote (when in fact, the only other person who had really contributed at the time was LML, who I was not suspicious of), which I figured he (for whatever reason) wanted more explanation for, here:

When you asked me why I didn't unvote Thok, that was in Post 26 of the game. The discussion going on was solely between myself and LML: since I didn't think LML was very scummy in his argument (although I think he pressed it a bit too far), I didn't feel like voting for him. Nobody else had really "contributed" in the same sense, and since switching my vote would have been pretty much just as random as my initial random vote, there was no reason for me to move it around, especially when Thok was in absolutely no danger.

And here:

Why is it "suspicious" to keep a random vote on somebody if it takes seven to lynch, and there are only three votes on that person (none of them serious), and any other vote I would have placed would have been for just a random a reason anyways?

You are making it sound like I have an "obligation" to unvote if Thok reaches three votes during the random stage. That cannot be true, because then the obligation would fall on others into not placing a third random vote on Thok the first place, since that would result in Thok being at two votes anyways, thereby accomplishing nothing.

I did not have to justify keeping my vote on you: I was trying to force mith into justify why I should

unvote

you, and stating one reason I could use (if necessary) for not taking my vote off.

I am getting a distinct “making something from nothing” vibe here coming from both mith and Thok.

[petroleumjelly]

Are you trying to bait me? I never edited any posts, and I only quoted sections which were relevant to the point (i.e. those concerning leaving my random vote on you). You were expecting a response/defense, and I delivered. I do make a habit of quoting extraneous information, because it makes longer than necessary.

Concerning the other Thok voters, I would probably be the only one who

would

bother presenting an argument for keeping my vote there: I am well-known for being verbose in any case. CES never explains things in general, Al_Ko hadn't had the "chance" to unvote yet (and so wouldn't have to explain his 'failure' to do so), and Rosso had never voted.

There is no "OMGUS" involved in stating my suspicions. That particular connection was something that occured to me as soon as mith asked the question, and I pointed it out on the spot.

[petroleumjelly]

Obvious EBWODP:

*I do -not- make a habit of quoting extraneous information, because it makes -posts- longer than necessary.

[petroleumjelly]

You left off the second paragraph of my post attacking you, which explained exactly what part of your defense of my vote I found strange.

You mean

this

second paragraph?

I feel like you are making mountains out of the molehill that is mith's first post on the topic (if you notice, he also included a generic appeal asking about the Thok votes, in addition to a specific appeal to you.) None of the other Thok voters felt the need to make the long complicated argument about their votes that you did (compare CES or Rosso's [not a voter, but essentially in the same position] responses to yours).

I'm pretty sure I responded to that right here:

Concerning the other Thok voters, I would probably be the only one who would bother presenting an argument for keeping my vote there: I am well-known for being verbose in any case. CES never explains things in general, Al_Ko hadn't had the "chance" to unvote yet (and so wouldn't have to explain his 'failure' to do so), and Rosso had never voted.

I can expand

further

if you'd like. Did you want me to talk about what I consider mountains and molehills or something? I went into detail because it sounded like mith

wanted

me to go into detail.

Or perhaps you meant

this

second paragraph?

I still find PJ's comment about his vote on me interesting. The fact that he was willing to leave it on me doesn't bother me (if he had just said I wasn't at risk and he didn't feel like moving his vote, it wouldn't bother me).

... which does not need a response. Did you perhaps mean

this

second paragraph?

What does bother me is that he felt like he had to justify keeping his vote on me (with a reason he now disavows about me not participating in the thread), and that PJ accused mith of asking PJ to unvote me, when mith didn't do that. (He asked for an explanation of the votes on me, but never requested that I was unvoted.)

I responded to this paragraph in detail in Post 64, which in fact further explains the fact that I saw no point in unvoting you.

It's possible I am just missing this "second paragraph", and if that is so, please repeat it in a quote and ask me to respond again, because I just read over your posts and I'm pretty sure I responded to everything you mentioned.

*****

Rosso, would you state where I "made a case" against LML, please? I may have jabbed at him a few times, and I pointed out a few things I disagreed with in his arguments, but that does not equate to making a case against him, and I would like to know how you came across that opinion.

And also, I am not so much trying to "make you look like a doofus", but when you make comments that imply to me that you are not paying attention to the game, you can very much expect me to point them out.

[petroleumjelly]

Let me put it

this

way.

LML attacked

me

. LML made a case against

me

. I defended. You stated:

on an honesst scale, first inclination is pjscum. the case pj has against lml is unfounded and crap.

I am asking you for what you think my "case I had against LML"

was

, because I never made one (if your "vocabulary" differs from mine, explain how). And after you explain that, I want to know why you think it is "unfounded" and why you think it is "crap".

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, let's see if I can't make this simpler.

1.) I random voted Thok

2.) mith asked why I didn't unvote when Thok reached three votes

3.) I responded that there was no specific

reason

for me to unvote. The only reasons I could fathom as to

why

I would want to unvote you would be:

A.) If you had contributed something to discussion which would lead me to believe you were more likely to be town than somebody else; or
B.) If I had found a vote I believed to be less random and of more substance

Since neither A nor B were the case, there were no

reasons

for me to unvote you. I simply cited the lack of reason A as a "justification" (as you say) in keeping my vote, since it appeared that was what mith was asking for in particular.

[petroleumjelly]

EDWODP:

I should probably add a Reason C for completeness:

C.) If you were in actual danger of getting lynched

[petroleumjelly]

<3 Alky. You so tricksy.

[petroleumjelly]

tbh, i read back over lml's arguments and they seem weak, and pj's reflect bound is too opportunistic for my likings. That's why i think he's scum. coattails suck unless they belong to CEM.

Can you explain to me how my defense was "opportunistic", when I explicitly made it clear that I was not suspicious of LML (hence why I did not change my random vote)?

[petroleumjelly]

Mod

, could we get some prods, please? Preferably on:
-Seol (last post Sep. 1)
-Tyfo (last post Sep. 2)
-Cogito Ergo Sum (last post Sep. 2)

Also, Pooks, you present reasons for why you think Rosso has played the way he has this game, but you do not seem to take a side on the issue you presented. Is there a direction you are leaning, or are you pretty much spot-on in the middle?

[petroleumjelly]

My guess at scumgrouping: Thok, Al and Ameliaslay

Vote:Mith

Because Mith is the godfather, which is the title of a mafia movie. Clear scum there.

Yeah, that's a little contradictory there. It's fine to pressure people not in your proposed scum-group (I don't know how jokingly you made that statement), but after you have provided analysis and suspicions, I think you can do better than to random vote at this stage of the game.

FoS: M4yhem

.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Rosso Carne, Vote: M4yhem

. I could go on for paragraphs, but lets cut this down:

1.) Proposing a three person scum group, but random voting instead
2.) Unvoting at a mere suggestion (admits lack of support for vote), with the caveat "no wish to upset you"
3.) Turning statements into something they don't mean (i.e. "how do you

know

PJ is a townie?")
4.) Strongly insinuating that mith is scum, while later saying the verdict is "unclear" in the next paragraph down (in post 106)
5.) Saying mith "overreacted" to his original vote, which I do not believe was the case. It's page five, and random votes should be out of the question, especially for a player who used that same post to detail their own suspicions.

Cookies > Deadline, please.

[petroleumjelly]

I should have responded to this earlier, apologies for my tardiness. I will admit that I have been neglecting this game: it has pretty much ceased to ping anywhere on my 'interest' level for the last few pages, due to non-posting and no debates I am interested in.

PetroleumJelly:

1)How is random voting scummy? What does it achieve for me if I'm scum?

Random voting is not scummy. Random voting when you have reasons to suspect people

is

scummy. If you think somebody is town, you shouldn't vote for them: if you think somebody might be scum, that's where your vote ought to be. Your post detailed your suspicions, postulated a scum-group, but your vote was outside of your proposed scum-group. If you thought those three people were scum, that's where your vote should have been, instead of randomly being on mith.

2) It was a random vote. How long was I supposed to have kept it on?And I don't have any wish to upset mith; is that some sort of problem?

If you are too afraid to 'upset' people, you will not get far in mafia. My point was that you were much too acquiescent: why did you vote him if you were going to unvote at the merest suggestion? Votes which are immediately retracted have no qualities of pressure at all. If you wanted your vote to be of any use, you should have put it elsewhere with actual reasoning.

3)So I'm reaching. So are lot's of people. That's how we find scum, isn't it?

Granted. Reaching can help find scum. Reaching also helps scum lynch town. I consider this a moot point.

4)I change my mind alot. This does not make me scum; it makes me indecisive.What's wrong with thinking about all the possibilities?

Teehee. You really should play with me more. I am probably one of the more indecisive players on mafia scum, but most people would never guess it since I often come across as forceful, especially to newer players.

Fact is, you didn't have a mind to change: you said who you thought scum were, and voted mith, who was not in your proposed scum group. Since he was not in your proposed scum group, from my perspective, you did not think he was scum, which means there would be no reason for you to "change your mind" in the first place.

5) What's wrong with random voting on page five? Does it hurt the town in some way I'm unaware of? I had just replaced in so it was like page one to me, and I wanted to have a little fun. And I'm sick and tired of talking about it. Explain how late random voting is a good tactic for scum, and then you'll have a case against me.

See my response to #1. It doesn't have to be a "good tactic for scum", but your vote was inconsistent with your own stated suspicions.

Confirm Vote: M4yhem

.

A few questions, hopefully this should (directly or indirectly) bring people back to the game.

Al_Ko: You have been giving your opinions on arguments lately, but not stating who you think is most likely scum. Could you please tell us who you

suspect

instead of who

don't

suspect, possibly in the form of a vote?

LML: You have been missing for quite a while (the same can be said of me to an extent), and I am wondering if you are purposely avoiding the game at this point. What is your take on the M-M/mith debate, as well as M4yhem's entrance?

Pooks: You're making Jelly sad. Won't you come play with us? What do you think about M4yhem? Is he flailing scum, or silly townsperson? I have a hard time reading newbies, think I might need a little huggle power.

Rosso: Do you have an opinion on anybody other than me?

Tyfo: Are you still playing? It's been sixteen days since your last post, and that was a random vote during a time where we were clearly past random votes.

[petroleumjelly]

Yay! Huggle power to the rescue!

*huggles*

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm.

Unvote: M4yhem

, I liked his responses to Pooky's questions (although he probably should not have used himself as an example of somebody who he thinks is protown, in all technicality), and (this does not play

too

much of a factor) I totally jive with him in concerns of Rosso.

I'll see if I can't find a better place for my vote by either tonight or during the weekend.

[petroleumjelly]

Actually, I just (seriously, just now) read over the game to try to remember what the heck was happening. I don't remember all the players specifically, but here's the feelings I came off with:

1.) Al_Kohaulec seems to be trying to get on everybody's (or at the very least, my) good side: it's hard to substantiate by way of explanation. He seems to half-heartedly defend people while or just after they have been attacked. I suppose I can't find anything inherently

wrong

with this style of play, but I would certainly like to see him go on the offensive more rather than simply defensive/explanatory posts.

2.) Rosso has been just as useless as Tyfo, except there have actually been people who have defended Rosso, for whatever reason (Pooky, Al_Ko, and LML come to my mind most distinctly, although there may have been others). Having a stupid playstyle doesn't make him town. The same can be said of CES, except he is being attacked instead of defended. I honestly can't understand the discrepency of opinions towards CES and Rosso: they are both being just as unhelpful, in my own opinion, yet the concensus seems to be that most people would rather lynch CES over Rosso if given the choice. I haven't decided what this

means

precisely.

Also, Rosso's saying "I would hammer X" is just a scummy statement in general. Why only hammer? You should be willing to vote for somebody (no matter which vote happens to be) if you think they are scum.

I honestly can't think of a pro-town reason to only be willing to hammer somebody (

unless

that person is threatening to have a Vengeance/Martyr role). As scum, such a playstyle allows:

A.) Get away with not commenting on wagons on townspeople, whereby you can hammer them on the basis of "well, I told you beforehand I was willing to hammer them", or;
B.) Get away with not commenting on wagons on your own scumpartners, whereby you can hammer them, you of course set yourself up later to be able to rebut arguments against you being your partner since you showed a willingess to vote for them

For the record, I would choose a Rosso Carne lynch over a CES lynch, if given a choice.

3.) I am admittedly sitting on my own fence concerning M4yhem. He came into the game, with a seemingly mixed agenda, and seems very eager to turn on a dime in order to point his finger at anybody who coughs too loudly. As for his "surprise" at me unvoting "so easily", I will admit it probably had to do with the fact that you put me down as most likely to be town... I often seem to let stuff like that affect what I think of others more than I should.

Vote: Rosso Carne

.

[petroleumjelly]

I understand that, but Rosso's "views" seem entirely based on how people perceive him.

1.) Pooky gave Rosso the benefit of the doubt = Rosso sees him as pro-town
2.) mith FoS'd Rosso once, and has since pretty much veered towards M-M, CES, and M4yhem (essentially, no longer finding Rosso suspicious), from which Rosso only comments that he would be willing to vote M4yhem
3.) Rosso seems to "think I am scum", probably because he already knew in advance I really don't like his playstyle

So his "suspicions" and "who he thinks are town" seem more self-serving than anything. The fact that he has expressed a willingness to "hammer" Thok (not just vote for Thok, but only hammer), vote for M4yhem (without explaining why), and finds me scummy (for reasons I feel are nonexistent, such as my 'case' against LML), I think I would prefer a Rosso lynch over a CES lynch. CES

may

not be as 'helpful' in that specific sense, but I think Rosso has been

scummier

with the content he has posted, and not only that, I think his lynch would be more informative than a CES lynch.

Also, I know that Tyfo has only posted once: that was my to obviate how much help I think Rosso and CES have been to this game.

[petroleumjelly]

That said, I think PJ choice of Rosso over CES strikes me as oppurtunistic, and is decent evidence for a PJ-CES pairing, IMHO. (In particular, I don't really believe the whole "a Rosso lynch gives more info than a CES" comment.)

Well, that's funny because I feel the same way about you possibly being connected to Rosso. And since there are roughly three people defending Rosso (or at the very least, his playstyle) and currently nobody defending CES (although I suppose you are construing my attack on Rosso as a 'defense' of CES), I think I am justified in saying we would gain more information from a Rosso lynch (since

more

people have actually interacted and made comments directly towards Rosso, allowing for more suppositions to be drawn upon confirming his alignment).

[petroleumjelly]

Rosso, with all due respect, you would probably fail if you came into the game with the objective of lynching Thok, unless Thok had consented beforehand to

allow

you to bus him. And even then, I would wager Thok would much rather be the player busing

you

, if anybody were to be bussed at all.

[petroleumjelly]

I honestly can't understand the discrepency of opinions towards CES and Rosso: they are both being just as unhelpful, in my own opinion, yet the concensus seems to be that most people would rather lynch CES over Rosso if given the choice. I haven't decided what this means precisely.

So according to PJ, there's no way to say which one of them is scummier based on their playstyle because they're equally unhelpful.

That was not what my statement said. If you read that paragraph

in context

, it is clear that I don't understand how the discrepency weighs in Rosso's

favor

.

Essentially, I believe they are each being just as unhelpful. However, people are more willing to vote for CES over Rosso. I feel that not only has Rosso been unhelpful, but he has

also

been scummy, which makes him the better choice of lynch (if we are to lynch either) so far as I am concerned. I really have not seen any reasons which lead me to believe CES is more likely to be scum than Rosso at this point. A busy schedule does not a townsperson make.

Also, Rosso's saying "I would hammer X" is just a scummy statement in general. Why only hammer? You should be willing to vote for somebody (no matter which vote happens to be) if you think they are scum.

In case you haven't noticed: Although CES approved of the M4yhem lynch, he didn't actually vote for him. How is that any different from saying "I would hammer X"? They were both sending the same basic message, which in essence is "let the bandwagon roll while I sit on the sideline". The difference being that Rosso has since retracted from his hammer-only mentality and placed his vote.

The difference is this:

Rosso has set himself to hammer Thok, while CES has only said he approves of a certain lynch. If that approval goes so far as for CES to place a vote, it will

not

automatically lynch a person; hammering does. The two are in no way equivalent. Timing is everything when it comes to votes.

Also, I never said Rosso was only willing to place hammer votes, but he had set himself up early in the game

to

place one on Thok (who Rosso has in fact not voted for).

I fail to see how this "doesn't add up". Take two pills and call me in the morning.

[petroleumjelly]

Also, I’m told that patronising people who accuse you is a scumtell. What’s in those pills, poison?

I am too tired to respond to the rest of your post (I also like how I went from the person most likely to be town to get a FoS, but whatever), but this is the kind of comment that makes me roll my eyes and want to slap you.

Please read just about any game I have ever played in. From what I understand, many players find me:

1.) Pushy
2.) Patronizing
3.) Verbose

And depending on who are talking to, I am also:

4.) Persuasive
5.) Scary

And I am rather consistent with all of those stereotypes, whether I like it or not.

So far as the Rosso / CES issue is concerned, it should be pretty obvious that I really don't have a frickin' clue if either of them are scum at this point. I don't especially like Day Ones in the first place, because it feels like trying to squeeze juice from a rock.

I personally think that Rosso has a better chance at being scum over CES. I have explained my reasoning for I believe that Rosso has a better chance at being scum over CES. And it should be pretty clear that I think Rosso has a better chance at being scum over CES, since that is where my vote is placed. If you do not agree with me, then tough noogies, because I have not seen a single case to pursuade me to vote CES over Rosso. Rosso might "have more ideas", but that make me go "oh, well, he must be town".

Also, I don't understand your two lines of reasoning, which are:

1.) CES is unreadable.

Question: Should you then lynch all unreadable players? I do not approve of players who generally use one-liners, and I often get frustrated playing with them. But that does not mean they should be lynched on that basis.

2.) CES is more unhelpful, because all he does is bandwagon, and Rosso at least presents ideas.

Questions: Can a game progress without bandwagons? Does the presentation of "ideas" make somebody town (especially when the ideas presented are scummy)? Also, Rosso

also

pretty much only bandwagons, and he pretty much randomly calls people scum without presenting a line of reasoning. And when he

did

try to present a line of reasoning, it was found out that his line of reasoning was absolutely nonsense.

I apparently seem to be within a very small minority in my opinion, and I simply not seeing how so many people are in disagreement with me right now. I will not reiterate how I differentiate between bandwagon votes and hammer votes, because my post explains what I think of them just fine, and if you disagree, you disagree.

How about somebody present a case for why CES is a better lynch than Rosso, because I am just frankly not seeing it.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm, I liked that post. I never really thought LML to be scum anyways, but that post gives off a good vibe. Fair point about m4yhem, I may have backed off of him too soon.

Mod

, is the deadline still suspended? We should be able to generate more discussion with these two replacements.

Rosso, please explain what you mean by "cringing".

Your attempt to belittle me is noted.

Could you elaborate why you said this? I thought we had just gone over the fact that I can be patronizing. Or is this another joke? I pretty much do not have a sarcasm-o-meter.

[petroleumjelly]

M4yhem, that last post doesn't even make sense.

unvote, Vote PJ for oppurtunistic hopping on Rosso earlier.

I have voted for Rosso Carne twice in this game. My first vote was placing a second vote on him early in the game, when the only other vote (administered by Ameliaslay) was a random vote. That cannot be construed as 'opportunistic hopping'.

My second vote for Rosso Carne was Post 181, which I detailed in reasons nobody else had pointed out before that time. Further, by reading my posts, it becomes rather obvious that I have been suspicious of Rosso for much of the game: I was certainly not hopping on a passing opportunity, as you are seemingly trying to present. In fact, that vote was in fact the

only

vote on Rosso, so it was most certainly

not

"opportunistic hopping", but rather just the opposite: it was striking out in a direction the town was not currently leaning, and so far as I can tell, the town is in general

still

leaning against voting for Rosso (which I am still failing to understand).

If anything, your vote on me just now is what I would consider opportunistic hopping: you present no substantive reasoning, your vote comes directly after I have already received two votes (one from CrashTextDummie, whose reasoning I have responded to, and another from Thok, whose reasoning I suppose I will address after this), during a time period where I am also apparently catching some flak for my opinion on the CES/Rosso debate.

Not really in the mood for a full post now, (and I won't be posting again before Thursday at the earliest), but I've realized that PJ's done a lot of subtle OMGUSing-not so much vote retaliation, but he has been relatively consistent in replying to any comment of the form "PJ has done X" by going "X is a stupid thing to mention. Perhaps bringing up X means you are scum."

I won't bother denying that I am naturally OMGUSy. Once you can convince me that being OMGUSy is indicative of scum, I might be able to accept your reasoning for your vote. The fact is, I (like all players) would rather not have votes on me if at all possible, so if somebody is going to accuse me of doing something scummy when I believe I have done nothing wrong, you can be certain my natural reaction will be along the lines of "No, that was

not

scummy, and the fact that you are trying to put suspicion on me makes me suspicious of you."

It's a mindset I try not to let shine through in my play, but so long as OMGUSery is

substantiated

with reasoning, I have found it is not indicative of whether or not somebody is scum. I don't think

all

votes on me are done because of ulterior motives (that would be a silly proposition to make), so I do not find all votes on me as suspicious.

But

those votes or 'suspicions' which I cannot agree with or understand the reasoning behind I

will

attack, just as any player should do in the first place.

[petroleumjelly]

What?

At the time of Post 181, you had unvoted Rosso because he said "fuck you". Needless to say, if you were that willing to unvote, your vote did not carry very much weight to begin with. It's not as if people were going to rally behind your unvote and consider that as an "opportunity" to vote for Rosso. I don't believe you have been "heavily" leaning towards voting any one person this entire game, to be frank. Even

if

you had actually been

voting

for Rosso when I placed my vote, that would still have only made my vote a second vote on reasoning which was substantiated, and so still cannot even be classified as "opportunistic hopping". The fact that your attention was, in fact, elsewhere dilutes your 'point' to practically nothing.

Also, if you feel my response to CTD was 'lacking', explain why.

[petroleumjelly]

Quick response (should be doing homework):

If you must know, this is one of my games where I am trying to twist my style. I have done the same elsewhere (an excellent example is Wheel of Time Mafia, which was highly antithetical to my normal style for much of the game, and I was pro-town). To be frank, I simply do not have the same amount of time as I used to in order to be as immaculate and detailed as I used to, so running commentary is becoming less and less my cup of tea (especially since people are coming to expect it more and more).

Other than that, I can only explain things in general level. The only reason I signed up for this game in the first place was because LML asked me too: ever since he stopped posting, and has been replaced, pretty much all of my motivation in playing this game has been lost. Seol, Tyfo, and now AmeliaSlay being replaced is only bringing my interest level that much lower.

Bantering with LML does not mean I find him suspicious: when games begin, I am suspicious that anybody could be scum. Of course I jabbed him a few times when the game began, because that is essentially the only way I am going to get my bearings on him. Also, I implied that he may have been deliberately lurking because in another Mini Game (Stages of Life, to be specific), LML did not post for 15 straight days as the Mafia Godfather. I called him out on this, and he came back mentioning he was gone because he had some tooth problems (although if I recall correctly, he had only warned us of a one week absence, as opposed to a

two

week absence). I still think his posts have been generally pro-town, but I was put off by his recent non-postingness and decided to comment on it. As it turns out, he has since disappeared from the site again, so I no longer attribute his lack of posting to lurking, and therefore I still believe him (and his new replacement, Relyte) to be pro-town.

I can't say much about the OMGUSery. For the most part, I am never really a big target for garnering votes in the first place (especially early on in games), so my natural OMGUSeriness never really shines through too much. I suggest you read those games where you think I am town (or perhaps games which are finished where I

was

town), and then actually look how often I am

attacked

or voted: if I am not attacked, I cannot be OMGUSy.

[petroleumjelly]

CTD, you really, really need to read this game:

Pie C9, featuring Rosso-scum. Then come back to me and tell me that Rosso's "I will hammer X" comments are in jest. They are not. They are not in any way pro-town, and he will use it as an excuse when he is scum.

I could not mention that game previously, but now that it is officially finished, I may point it out. My reasons are very much substantiated for believing that Rosso is significanly more scummy than CES.

My statement still holds: I believe both Rosso and CES have been just as unhelpful this game. The difference is that I find Rosso scummier, and therefore, I would prefer his lynch if I were given a choice between the two.

[petroleumjelly]

Well, it appears some of my posts are disappearing, I clearly remember having voted Relyte at one point in time, and later unvoting. Regardless, I will

Unvote: Rosso Carne

, since that is currently my last post in the thread.

Now I'm going to summarize what I remember happening since the deleted posts, so add to this summary if I miss something:

1.) Relyte has an argument with M4yhem, in which they are both voting each other, and Relyte says he believes he is having an argument with a Townie.
2.) Relyte then does an analysis on the game, where he considers the possibility of himself being scum, and is then attacked on this grounds by myself and Al_Kohaulec (and perhaps others, but these are the two most prominent in my mind).
3.) Relyte gathers 5 votes (in this exact order: M4yhem, petroleumjelly, Rosso Carne, mith, Cogito Ergo Sum), after which he claims Townie.
4.) Thok and Al_Kohaulec express that they had been expecting a Townie claim, and I express the opinion (which I later had to clarify) that

if

Relyte is town, his most plaulsible claim was that of a Townie, after I which I unvote with the hopes on being able to find a new suspicion after rereading the thread.
5.) Thok, CrashTextDummie, and Al_Kohaulec all attack me for various reasons, and since I would probably water down their arguments if I presented them here, they might want to reiterate them so I don't look like I'm creating straw-men to knock down.

Regardless, before the crash, I remember having vague thoughts of being suspicious of mith for a few reasons, which I will try to post when I can remember this game more fully. Mostly, mith seemed to be following

me

in particular rather readily, at the same time calling me the 'most town' person in the game at one point. Although I can't disagree (obvobv) I am simply getting similar vibes from mith as I got from Stikey in Most Mountainousest, so I at least want to talk about that more. In any case, I will try to present a small case against him when I can find time to see the response.

I also think analyzing the Relyte-wagon would be a fair place to start, although I don't think the wagon itself is all we should be looking at (and this will hopefully be easier if some of our posts are brought back).

For example, I also think I need to poke a bit at Al_Kohaulec, who expressed clear suspicion of Relyte for considering himself being scum, but did not vote (instead tacitly approving of votes on Relyte), and after I unvoted Relyte, Alkly voted for me on Thok's reasoning that "I thought I was voting for a Townie", which I have since shown is untrue, and I would like to see addressed.

[petroleumjelly]

Yes, I have Thok. I think LML and I had a small discussion about that on approximately Page 2 of this game.

[petroleumjelly]

Yes, Thok. I mentioned myself that

if

LML was town, his role was most likely to be that of Townie.

The problem is, that was only

if

LML was town. Relyte's posts in this game were enough to make me change my mind on the subject of LML, because I simply could not gloss over the fact that I find Relyte's posts and comments scummy. As you know, LML is a rather experienced player, and he has fooled me on at least two occasions in games I have either read with him in it or games I have played with him into believing he is town when he is scum (those two games are Himalayan and Stages of Life). Therefore, I was more than willing to pursue my suspicions on Relyte instead of ignoring them on the basis that I thought an

experienced player who can fool me

was probably town, and in particular, a Townie.

As you very much know, breadcrumbs don't

prove

the truthfulness of anything, although it certainly makes things

more likely

if it is later claimed to be true by that same person. Since Relyte claimed Townie (presumably) without having discussed this game with LML, I am compelled to believe his claim more than the usual claim of Townie. As I also noted, if Relyte had claimed a power role of some sort, I probably would

not

have believed him in accordance with that very breadcrumb by LML.

[petroleumjelly]

I find it scummy that you switched from thinking that Relyte was scummy to a "town newbie meltdown" mostly based on Relyte's claiming vanilla town. I honestly don't believe that there was new info in Relyte's additional posts that would seriously cause a change in your assessment of those options.

Well, I clearly can't quote exactly what made me change my mind about Relyte, otherwise I would address this in more detail. The fact was, I gave his posts in specific a reread from the stance of him being a Townie, and he claimed, or being scum. He is obviously somewhat inexperienced, and he obviously went through some sort of meltdown. After considering his claim and rereading his posts (and some of the blatant illogic behind them), as well as his reconciliatory tone with M4yhem during the argument and after his claim, I changed my opinion into thinking he was more likely to be a townie exploding.

If you are going to call my change of opinions scummy in this game, I would love to see you universalize that into other games. I change my mind

all the time

in rereads (seeing as that is the

purpose

of rereads), and I most certainly don't need to cite any examples of that to you.

[petroleumjelly]

Reasons. I didn't much like that post where he was like 'I always omgus'.
I've seen scum say that to cover thier overreactions. I've also done it myself as scum.
Besides, my gut says he's bad and that's good enough for day one, surely?

Apparently I need to clarify yet again. I only OMGUS when I believe:

1.) That somebody is presenting a fabricated argument against me
2.) That somebody is being inconsistent in their suspicions
3.) That somebody is taking advantage of a wagon on me without giving it proper thought

So it's not like I "always OMGUS", I only do that if I feel it is warranted. Of course, I am inclined to believe that people who vote for me are either stupid, or scum. Possibly both. And my post which explains this focused on the fact that I am

rarely ever bandwagoned

, so it's really no wonder that Thok finds it odd to see me OMGUSing, simply because I am hardly ever in the position to do so.

Also, M4yhem, would you please point out my "overreactions" that I was "covering"? That line interests me in particular.

As it is, the person whose attack I can "see" the most is Thok, although he is wrong, and I also believe he was trying to create something from nothing early in the game concerning the unvote issue. Al_Ko seemed too opportunistic for my liking (and, of course, his post has since been deleted so I can't reference it at this time). I am undecided on CTD, because I do not believe he has played enough with Rosso or CES to understand my stances on those two players. I did not much like M4yhem's last post, and I will probably have to review his posts over again soon to come to a firmer opinion. I doubt I even need to expand on my current opinion of Rosso.

***

I will note a fun fact, however. I will have been playing on Mafia Scum for eleven months tomorrow, and to this day, I have never been lynched as Town in a forum game. Basically, if I'm lynched this game, I will devote my signature to this game, saying something along the lines of "best scum/dumbest town". Just a warning in advance.

[petroleumjelly]

Pfft. I mentioned explicitly that was a "fun fact" and not a "defense" of any sort, you can think what you want. This game has mostly been a waste of my time after LML abandoned it. And also, I am really missing how this game compares at all to Gambits II. Please elaborate.

Just read mith's response, and I am not really concerned with his stance on the breadcrumb. I agree LML's breadcrumb was not 'strong' by any means, so I can easily imagine other players missing it (especially since mith never even played in that game). However, I am surprised he is going back to voting Relyte.

Thok, what do you think of M4yhem's last post (275)?

[petroleumjelly]

Really, it's all the backtracking to justify stuff, and all of the craplogic I fell you are giving out. It's also a case to observe that I do know how you respond to being attacked as scum. (Now that I think about it, I have seen you attacked when you were town, Ms Satanic Nun.)

Backtracking? If changing my mind during the course of the game is backtracking, my apologies. I do not think this game can even be compared to Gambits II. Firstly (and most importantly) I was scum in Gambits II, and I am town in this game (although you clearly think this is a point of dispute). Secondly, in Gambits II, I was not attacked whatsoever until I made my "repartitition" of kills post, which was done for purposes of letting both scum groups systematically kill the town (which I had thought was insanely clever at the time, but was in actuality quite silly). Thirdly, after I was attacked, I had purposely planned on claiming Judas, so I just screwed around so that I would have a "reason" for looking scummy on purpose. After that, I pretty much tried to mislead the town as much as possible before death. I really fail to see a comparison.

Also, I was not attacked in Verbose II. My Masonic partners, MikeBurnFire and Cogito Ergo Sum were attacked,

not

me. And in fact, if you remember that game whatsoever (which you should) I directly attacked those players who ever threatened to lynch the Masonry. Do you remember my arguments with Werebear, by chance? Or how I responded to LML and

you

attacking CES on Day Three? I did not suffer anybody suspicious of me or my Mason group kindly.

In fact, you should very much

know

I am OMGUSy as town, Mr. Fiddling-While-Rome-Burns. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I hadn't considered that angle on your play this game.

Also, no, I thought that Dragon Phoenix was the moderator of Invitational #5. I thought mith was simply the figure-head, and simply knew the set-up was Mountainous.

Also, that's an interesting response to M4yhem's last post. Did nothing strike you about:

I'm inclined to believe Relyte is town, because every time I've claimed as scum I've claimed a power role.

[petroleumjelly]

Do you have a response for whether or not you agree my OMGUSery is "consisent with what you know of my play as town", now that I you have been so kind as to bring up Verbose II? I am honestly interested to know.

Other games I can recall off the top of my head where I was attacked as town were:
-Most Mountainousest. In specific, I was accused of OMGUSery with Kelly, for "avoiding questions" by Gmk, for being "cocky" by Atticus, for "overreacting" by various players. These all seem to be relevant to this game. I have been a little OMGUSy, Thok accused me of "avoiding questions" when I was actually trying to respond to his questions, and lately I have been called out for 'overreacting'.

-PrimeTime. This is a particularly good example of me being OMGUSy as town. The claimed Mason, Lloyd, expressed suspicion on me, which I would have no part in. I promptly shut him down, and also asked for him to be nightkilled. I was planning on Vigging him that game when it got to Night 4 because I was getting so frustrated with him trying to warp me into looking like scum.

-No Use for a Title. Another game where I was a Mason, so I messed around for a little bit before I got serious. My largest nay-sayer in that game was Glork, so I promptly returned the favor.

-Wheel of Time. The best example of the group. Instead of OMGUSing people during the day (although I did plenty of that too), I simply Vigged people at night if they did anything towards expressing suspicion of me.

And, of course, there is also Verbose II, which you kindly pointed out, where I was OMGUSy not only for myself, but also for my two Mason partners. I think you are pulling your theory from your ass, to be frank, and I thought the same thing about you being "suspicious" of my refusal to unvote you during the random voting stage on Page 2.

I get the feeling you are looking for a challenge.

[petroleumjelly]

Wow, what? Did you play in the same game as I did?

Simply because I didn't have Werebear lynched immediately does not mean I was not OMGUSy (or that I was "patient"). Anybody and everybody who expressed any suspicion on either myself or a Mason partner were immediately told to look elsewhere or voted. As you may remember, FoSing was

not allowed

in that game, or else I would have done a heck of a lot more of it. Quoting was also

not allowed

in that game, or else I would have done more of that, specifically to address the stupid arguments which implied that the Masonry "might be scum". The fact was, I needed approval of my partners to go lynching people, and since

both

MBF and CES thought Werebear was a bad lynch for much of the game (I believe we even posted some summarized night discussion to this affect), that was pretty much my reasoning for not screaming for his head the entire game.

But here is a game I

know

mith has read, and I definitely want to know what he thinks about your latest post.

[petroleumjelly]

Fair point, however there is another thing you should think about in context.

I could not defend CES (or attack LML) on the basis of calling out CES for his Satan restriction. That would have tied myself too blatanly into being CES' Mason partner, so I was very careful not to associate myself with CES or MBF if I could help doing so. In essence, I was building a case primarily on the basis that LML was attacking CES, and from that, I also noticed other behavior I did not particularly like on behalf of LML, so that nobody would draw any possible connections.

[petroleumjelly]

That post makes no sense to me, Relyte.

He starts jumping at whoever is scummiest at the time.

1.) How is the town supposed to catch scum if people do not jump on "the scummiest people"? This is no reason to lynch

anybody

. If I tried to falsely make somebody look scummy, that is a completely seperate accusation (one in which I would definitely ask for even one example of), but here is something you ought to know:

Jumping on scummy people is what townspeople are supposed to do.

2.)

Then his post, about "worst" town, just made him look like, you're stupid if you lynch me. I don't like PJ at all.

I agree with the first half. You are either scum, stupid, or very misled if you lynch me. What do you expect me to say?

3.) That was a

horrible

post, especially considering the fact that you are know "jumping" on me (who you see as "scummy"), which is something you apparently find scummy when

other

people do it.

4.) I have also just noticed that Thok and Al_Kohaulec attacked me for when I voted you, Relyte, while afterwards saying that if you claimed anything at all, it would be a Townie if you were town. They apparently find it suspicious that I was "voting for somebody I thought was town" (which is untrue), but nobody mentioned your your comments during your argument with M4yhem. Specifically, the fact that you were voting for him while also saying "but I think we are townies bickering". Unfortunately, those posts have been deleted.

So let's see, who has voted for me (not necessarily those who are voting me currently)?

Thok
Rosso
CrashTextDummie (Tyfo)
Al_Kohaulec
M4yhem (Seol)
Relyte (LoudmouthLee)

I am very much a believer of deconstructing bandwagons for information, and I am of the opinion that

at least

two scum have voted for me. Since I believe this game only has a mafia group (as I clearly expressed at the beginning of the game), depending on the make-up of the scum group, it is possible for the third scum (if the mafia is the traditional three players) is either trying to distance from his/her partners, or it is also possible that they are all trying to get me lynched.

I have a few theories, and trying to decide between them is difficult.

*****

Theory #1

: I have been getting a vibe between Relyte + M4yhem, and it came primarily from their argument which took up an entire page and has since been deleted. Relyte "attacked" M4yhem, but during this attack, he constantly said "but I feel we are two townies bickering", and then analyzed all four possible situations (even those situations which allowed Relyte to be scum) and once again decided that M4yhem was probably a Townie. After they have now essentially IGMEOY'd each other and waved fingers threateningly, they are coalescing onto my wagon based on others' reasoning, and M4yhem used

horrible

logic in order to "believe" Relyte's claim of Townie (which boiled down to "If

I

were scum, I would have claimed a power role, so Relyte is probably town").

I cannot pin down a third mafiate if this is the case. If I am lynched, this is the first place I would want to kick with a steel-toed boot, although I would more emphatically suggest:

*****

Theory #2

: Thok is trying to take "the hard road" in lynching people who have been known as "exceedingly difficult to lynch", such as myself and mith. Although he is obviously consistent with his damned metagame lynches (which is ironic since I don't think he can read me whatsoever, and I don't think I can read him very well either), I really feel like he has been pulling a lot of things out of his ass. Five big examples of this are:

A.)

My refusal to unvote Thok during the random voting stage. There is absolutely no problem with this, and it is not scummy. Thok, however, kept pushing the issue, as if it were larger than it truly is.

B.)

Thok then claimed I was "avoiding his questions", here:

I will admit that I am trying to bait you a bit for reactions/clarification; but it bothers me that you took like three posts to actually get my point (which I thought was clear; maybe others will disagree).

When it should be pretty clear I was

trying

to answer his questions. This is not the first time I have been accused of "avoiding the question", and I sincerely urge you to read Gmk's posts against me in Most Mountainousest. Sometimes I address posts how I interpret them, and that can be different than what the author of the post intended.

C.)

Thok has tried to paint me into being "more OMGUSy than usual", which I think is a completely unsupported metagame, and in fact, I have shown

five seperate games

to disprove that theory. Thok has actually yet to address whether or not he believes I am not OMGUSy as town.

D.)

Thok has tried to use the fact that I am "not as thorough as he would expect" against me, when I am fairly sure he is more than aware that I do not have an infinite amount of time to be as thorough as humanly possible. I try to keep up with games and post as I see fit, and that's all I promise to do in any given game. It's not my job to summarize everything that ever happens and then give my opinion on it, which seems to be a role people put me in automatically place me.

E.)

Thok has recently tried to compare my play in this game to my play in Back to Gambits II, and after I asked him to explain that statement, his response was:

Really, it's all the backtracking to justify stuff, and all of the craplogic I fell you are giving out. It's also a case to observe that I do know how you respond to being attacked as scum. (Now that I think about it, I have seen you attacked when you were town, Ms Satanic Nun.)

Which did not satiate my curiosity.

1.) I do not believe I have backtracked whatsoever, and Thok has given no examples of why he believes this to be so. I may have changed my mind on things, but I have not

changed the reasoning for any of my actions

, which

is

the sort of backtracking I did in Back to Gambits (I first claimed I did my "list" for one reason, then changed it to a second reason, and then warped that into a slight third reason).

2.) Thok has not given one example of my "craplogic" this game. I can see how he might TRY to make my suspicions of Rosso look like crap, but after I cited the Pie C9 game, Thok admitted that I had a point and that I was not simply making things up as I went along to suit my purposes, which invalidates his statement that I have used "craplogic".

3.) Thok finished off his post with his ATTEMPT at saying "he knows how I respond when I am town", but when I actually elaborated on that, and after he read the game,

he changed his mind and realized that I very much AM OMGUSY as town

.

*****

Thoery #3

:

It might also be the case that the primary people attacking me (who I see as Thok and CTD) are simply misled townspeople, and scum are trying to take immediate advantage of the situation. Should this be true, I think the most likely culprits to be one or both of Al_Kohaulec or Rosso. I was very disturbed with Al_Ko's immediate jump onto me after Thok falsely said I was "voting for somebody I thought was town" without giving any further detail. This could have been his attempt to slide onto the bandwagon as inconspicuously as possible. What is more disturbing about this theory is that early in the game, Al_Ko asked Rosso point blank "who should we HAMMAH today", and altough I can certainly believe this at an attempt at humor, I have seen cheeky scum banter with each other early in games exactly like that.

*****

People who are probably town:

mith (I reviewed my thoughts on him and his following, and have changed my mind)
CrashTextDummie (albeit very disillusioned)

People I have very little read on:

Machiavellian-Mafia
AmeliaSlay [and her replacement, whoever that is]
PookytheMagicalBear
Cogito Ergo Sum

People I am mildly suspicious of:

Rosso Carne
Al_Kohaulec

People I am seriously considering:

Relyte
M4yhem
Thok

In conclusion,

Vote: Thok

. Of Relyte and M4yhem, I think Relyte has the better chance of being scum, despite his claim and LML's actions towards me (and believe me, I have seen

plenty

of games where scum have claimed Townie). I think I am better off hunting for one scum than trying to possibly catch two scum in the act when the chances of that are statistically low. This will probably only seal my own doom, but I don't particularly mind it in this game so much.

[petroleumjelly]

Also, now that I think on it, I would like to conduct a poll.

If I am lynched today, how many people will vote for Thok tomorrow when you learn that I am town?

If I am going to die, I would at least like my cold, dead hands to be pointing at scum before I do. He has been continually 'testing the waters' when it comes to me, and I frankly haven't much cared for it at all. I want Thok dead if I am going to be lynched.

Even if the town disagrees with me on this point, I think the answers and reactions to this question should be helpful later in the game.

[petroleumjelly]

1.) Rosso, you have no metagame on me.
2.) You are also being unhelpful. So is CES. Stop being a hypocrite.
3.) Answer my Poll Question.

[petroleumjelly]

Thok, could you please address the five (A-E) things I brought up against you in the post where I voted you? 'twould be appreciated.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, gosh dangit. I was actually hoping this game would be abandoned, it feels like we have gone nowhere in the past few weeks (and having a player absent an entire month is not helping things).

Guess I'll wait for the rest of Thok's response.

[petroleumjelly]

Still here, but I will be busy this week until Friday. I will try to give this game a reread and outline my thoughts come this weekend at the latest.

[petroleumjelly]

I am sadly still here for this game. I also think that Alky should experiment until he finds a way to blow up this game instead of the site. We have hit the 3-month benchmark for D1.

[petroleumjelly]

This coming from the guy who claims that "he hasn't done anything scummy at all". Ugh.

I might be able to find time for a reread soon, but school has just gone into dead week and finals week, so I will have to find time.

Thok, what do you think of M4yhem's last posts?

Pooky, were you ever going to tell us what you think about your "interrogation" earlier? I think mith asked you something to this effect earlier, but I can't be bothered to search back for a response at the moment.

[petroleumjelly]

When he came in, M4yhem got under immediate fire from both you and PJ over something that is pretty standard behaviour for him (as town). It's the fact that the two of you never even stopped to consider that he might be newb with a different playstyle that makes me suspect you of being scum set on an easy target.

I know that plenty of other people were irritated by M4yhem, but it was you who declared your certainty of him being scum, and PJ who confirm voted after seeing him make only 7 posts. That's what I call agressive.

And it's the kind of agressiveness I wouldn't expect from a townie.

Come again?

Do you remember Leper Mafia, by chance? Do you remember a certain player named Rathyr?

FoS: CTD

, funny how you aren't considering

our

playstyles. Pressuring does not equate to lynches, but it does equate to lots of information from both the person being squeezed and the town's reaction to such attacks. I have absolutely no qualms in pressing new players if I think they are being scummy.

To respond to Thok, I have had a bad feeling about the CES lynch all day, I didn't need you to go reinforcing that idea. It seems like he has been the consistent 'default' lynch.

[petroleumjelly]

I already knew that newbies can and will do incomprehencible things. But that doesn't mean you should simply let them get away with it without forcing them to explain themselves.

If you would like my feeling on confirmation votes, try reading the first few pages of Band Mafia, modded by Aureal. They are pointless excepting for the reactions they might incite, and the message it sends to me is "I

still

think X is the best vote".

As it happens, I am currently pushing for a Thok lynch. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen anytime soon. "Putting pressure on someone for his lynch" doesn't do much if there aren't enough others voting.

[petroleumjelly]

Actually, you should probably read the first two days of Band Mafia, while you're at it. In that game, CES was piled on by scum because the town was pretty much too lazy to strike out in a new direction by that time. Fwiw, he was Clarinets, townie. This is one of the reasons I have been skeptical about his bandwagon today.

[petroleumjelly]

Curious, I seem to remember MM saying almost nothing.

[petroleumjelly]

Mod:

Have either of CES or MM actually

picked up

their prods? This game has been a constant farce considering the fact we seem to only have about half the town participating at any one time.

I don't even know what to think of M4yhem any longer. I am getting tired of reading these sorts of posts:

Let's have fun! Everybody follow me down the lollipop path, and we can vote CES! Oh, happy day, calloo callay!

Whee!

Relyte, you have been voting me since October 28 (read: over a month). Could we get some fresh thoughts from you?

[petroleumjelly]

*sigh*

This game gets worse and worse.

Mod

, I ask for a deadline extension. We still have two players who possibly need replacement (Rosso Carne and Cogito Ergo Sum).

[petroleumjelly]

Noted. I have a replacement on the way. I'm issuing prods as well.

Personally I think this game needs to go to night more than anything.

Personally

I

think this game needs to be abandoned. Guess neither of us are going to get what we want.

mod response: Actually I'm quite capable of taking this game to night.

[petroleumjelly]

Yay! MBF is in the game! Whooho- ... oh.

Never mind.

[petroleumjelly]

And actually, mith already caught what I was going to say.

Kelly, mod for the record, I also vote against a deadline extension, even if it is my own head on the block.

I would also be interested in replacing back into this game, were I to die. Assuming you allow that sort of thing, of course.

(So anybody voting me of because my playstyle is annoying, take note. I will return! You cannot stop me!)

I also don't know whether or not M4yhem would try something like this. Of course, scum cannot replace back into games (unless they are solitary scum, and even that could be pushing it if that person was given any sort of information unknown to the town), and this plea seems genuine enough. Whether or not M4y is that crafty, I can't tell. This quote in particular, however, leads me to believe M4y is more likely to be town than I had previously thought.

[petroleumjelly]

*waves tiredly to Norinel*

[petroleumjelly]

Sounds like a good idea.

[petroleumjelly]

PJ & Thok- how do you feel about no lynch?

No-Lynch here is a bad idea. There are 11 players alive. Since I am thinking this game has one scum group, here is roughly what we can expect:

11 players
Lynch -> 10 players
Night kill -> 9 players
Lynch -> 8 players
Night kill -> 7 players
Lynch -> 6 players

In this situation, the town gets 3 lynches before the game could be over, if there is a scum group of 3. Compare that to the alternative:

11 players
No-Lynch -> 11 players
Night kill -> 10 players
Lynch -> 9 players
Night kill -> 8 players
Lynch -> 7 players
Night kill -> 6 players

In this situation, the town only gets 2 lynches, and the scum get three night kills. It is always better to give the town more choices in who is going to die: that way, there is a greater chance that scum will die. No-Lynching today is not optimal.

[petroleumjelly]

I will reread and make a post by tne end of today(sunday)

if i don't, some1 kick me.

Note: The post above was almost a week ago.

completely not my fault that I have to revise my gameplan cuz people change in and out >.<

I believe I pointed this out earlier. I don't recall Pooky ever having "game-plans" as town. If there is an example of you doing this Pooks, feel free to link me.

and M4yhem, there are reasons why I wouldn't want to share with you what I thought of your answers.

I don't really believe in giving out my notes to every1 unless i'm about to die and I really have nothing better to do.

There are reasons you should share what you think about M4yhem's answers. Do you think he is town? Scum? You are allowed to comment on things without revealing everything you are thinking (despite how super-secret it is).

I think Pooky is trying to give off the impression that he has "reasons" behinds his actions; I think it's all smoke and mirrors. I don't think he has a "gameplan" (unless it consists of lurking, which he seems to be doing quite well), and I don't think he has "answers" to M4yhem's questions. I don't think he ever intended to give the thread a reread, but was rather hoping for the deadline to fall.

Unvote: Thok, Vote: PookytheMagicalBear

.

If Pooks is scum, I woul look at Rosso next for Pooks' post where he is essentially defending Rosso by sitting on a fence. For reference, that post is found here.

Definitely not impressed.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: Thok

.

You slimy scum.

1.) Answer my questions from yesterday that you never got to.
2.) Why did you hammer M4yhem yesterday, when:

->

a.

A strict majority is not necessary for a lynch
->

b.

M4yhem had

just

role-claimed
->

c.

You did not wait for any discussion about M4yhem's role-claim

Of further note, I would like to point out that Norinel (replacing

Cogito Ergo Sum

) was town. Of note, I would like to know what CrashTextDummie thinks of me now. I have played with CES before, and I stated, I was very sure he was being used as a distraction by scum.

@ TSQ: That was incredibly lazy. Unless you were suspicious of Pooky yesterday, your vote has no basis.

@ M4yhem 2: What did you think about the finishing wagon on M4yhem 1 at the end of Day One?

I can't believe this game has more replacements.

[petroleumjelly]

Actually, here are my top suspects:

1.) Thok
2.) Al_Kohaulec

I have about 3 people vying for spot #3 currently, but Al_Ko and Thok are the scummiest in my eyes by far.

[petroleumjelly]

Good reasons to answer questions?

A.)

I think you are scum, and one way that might get me to unvote you would be to answer my questions.

B.)

I asked you those quesitons on October 29 - it has been well over a month. You have clearly had time to answer them, and yet you have failed to do so.

C.)

I asked you again to answer my questions on October 31.

D.)

On Nov. 2, you managed to answer 2/5 of my questions, saying you would answer my questions later.

E.)

You asked on Nov. 14/Dec. 8 if you wanted me to see you answer the remaining questions. I responded in the affirmative. The reason I did not bring up the questions during that time was the fact that we had quite a few

crashes

with lost posts, and I figured I would wait until the site stabilized.

F.)

M4yhem, before dying, explicitly said:

Thok- Freud was a quack. Your attempt to find meaning in a typo is laughable but if it makes you happy, who am I to stop you. Consider other possibilties as much as you want. Just don't expect me to provide you with arguements against myself.

Also, answer PJ's questions. He's been waiting for, like, ever. Quit Stalling.

I would say there is more than a "good reason" for you to answer my questions. Stalling

is

the word that comes to mind.

[petroleumjelly]

I have five other reasons, as well.

1.) Curls index finger.
2.) Curls middle finger.
3.) Curls ring finger.
4.) Curls pinky.
5.) Curls thumb.

*shows Thok fist* Consider that my "holiday spirit".

In any case, you may have "dropped" your reasons from earlier, but it's my job to look at your posts as a whole, not simply those you are disowning. You accused me of things I think were false, and I think you were trying to create suspicion from me out of nowhere. Even if you don't believe them

now

, you must have had reason to believe in them at the time you made them:

that

is the reasoning I want to see. Ignoring things don't make them go away.

[petroleumjelly]

2. M4yhem partially counterclaimed my role, which is a variant roleblocker that has distinctly diifferent flavor than what he claimed. I will reveal that flavor if necessary, but I will not reveal night choices or the exact variant I have. I was quite surprised that he came up protown.

Oh, really?

So, in a

Mini Regular Game

, where there is not supposed to be a plethora of weird roles, when somebody claims something similar to your role, your first reaction is to think they are lying?

When people claim roles similar to mine, my first thought is that simply by the nature of the claim, they are more likely to be telling the truth. I cannot recall off the top of my head

any

game where there has been a "partial role-blocker", let alone a game where somebody has claimed to be a "partial role-blocker". Now Thok is saying that

his

role is a "partial role-blocker", and that when (for the first time I have seen) somebody claims a "partial role-blocker" in that

same

game, his reaction is to hammer them and completely end discussion.

Nice.

[petroleumjelly]

My first reaction is that you are a lying scumbag. My second is also that you are a lying scumbag.

If you are telling the truth, this game is completely stupid: I sign up for Mini Regular games when I

do not

want to deal with stupid roles and stupid mechanics.

Be that as it may, I have a Philosophy gathering I need to go to soon, so I will think over your claim.

[petroleumjelly]

Pab, why do you not think the last two votes that actually lynched M4yhem are noteworthy?

Question for you, Al_Ko.

The second to last vote on M4yhem was from Norinel. Norinel was town.
The last vote on M4yhem was Thok.

Since you clearly don't think the second to last vote came from scum, what do

you

think of the last vote?

[petroleumjelly]

I don't think that's an accurate description of your stance towards CES. When the whole Rosso vs. CES thing went down, you stated that you had "no frickin' clue" whether he was scum or not. You did bring up Band Mafia much later as a reason for why you were against the bandwagon on him, but I'm not really sure what to think about that. The fact that you're basically waving an "I told you so" sign in my face first thing after he died is not exactly reassuring, to say the least.

The reason I did not go directly into my meta-game on CES is because it sounds silly when put down on the written page. But as a general rule of thumb:

-When CES is being completely useless and bandwagony, he is probably town
-When CES is contributing to discussion and being helpful, he is probably scum

Of course I have "no frickin' clue" whether or not was scum or town (although I was leaning towards town), the sheer fact that

so many players

favored a CES-lynch over a Rosso-lynch made me

not

like the bandwagon on him, which in turn made it even

more

likely that he was town.

The thing is, I

do

sometimes know when I'm better off not explaining myself, and my meta-game stance on CES was one of those times. If I had seriously tried to defend CES on my reasoning above, I probably would have done more harm than good.

So far as "I-told-you-so" posts, you better just get used to them.

Unvote: Thok, Vote: Al_Kohaulec

.

[petroleumjelly]

Since when does one vote constitute a wagon, Alky?

[petroleumjelly]

You mean the game where you're

not

scum?

[petroleumjelly]

Funny.

I would be more sypathetic with Thok if he weren't scum.

[petroleumjelly]

If I believed that M4yhem1 were scum, why would I want people commenting on your roleclaim?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe you might be able to find a hypothetical scum-partner that way. Just a thought.

[petroleumjelly]

Now we're getting somewhere, at least.

In 2 days? Given that we already have three months worth of stuff to work with?

Yes. It would have been nice to know who backed off of M4yhem, who pressed a further attack, and who sat on the sidelines. I would say those would have been pretty important reactions. Ideally, I would like to know everybody's stance on a given person after they are attacked, after they have defended, and after they have claimed. That tends to help me find scum.

Why are you directing TSQ's vote? What do you think of his reaction to your comment?

I was not "directing TSQ's vote", I was pointing out that the vote on M4yhem2 was completely stupid unless TSQ was suspicious of Pooky. I don't recall telling TSQ where to slap a vote. I am unimpressed by the reaction, but I have other people I am currently pressing.

In addition, I'm amused by the way that you are throwing weasel words at me while trying to vote/bus your partner.

I'm amused that you are calling both Al_Ko and myself scum in this quote, and yet are voting for neither of us.

(Partially OMGUS, partially the observation that scum are more likely to groupthink on the issue on how to deal with me after I lynched M4yhem and they have more incentive to attack me then to defend me).

Townspeople who don't know your alignment aren't just going to ignore things like that. I certainly hope you weren't expecting a bouquet of flowers and a Miss America sash.

Would you like to explain why you think me answering your last three questions will help you analyze anybody other than myself, who you are already mostly certain is scum?

1.) My mind isn't made up. Otherwise I wouldn't be voting for Al_Ko right now.
2.) There are other townspeople in the game. Your answers to my questions gives us more to work off of.

[petroleumjelly]

And at least two people (pablito/CTD) have said they found me likely protown/that they believe the claim, with a third (mith) noting that there's at least a mediocre to decent WIFOM argument to argue that I'm not scum. So I do think it's quite possible for pro town players to look at my actions and see that there's a possibility that I'm protown (unless you believe that all three of mith, CTD, and pablito are scum, in which case either I'm protown or there's a four person scum group.

What are you going on about? Rarely, if ever, does an entire scum group hold the same opinion on the same person. Any group worth their snuff often takes alternate roads, so as to leave less of a connection between themselves. Three people saying they believe you are town does not make all of them scum if you are scum. The purpose of fake-claims are to get townspeople to believe you, last I checked.

What I fail to understand is whether or not you bothered to think about the general lay-out of the town, if you are actually telling the truth about your claim. You claim to be either an even-night role-blocker or an odd-night role-blocker... this marginally hints at a role-blocker who blocks on the opposite night you do.

If I truly had that role (it is safe to say I do not have a role-blocker variation whatsoever), and I saw M4yhem's claim, my first reaction would be:

Ah: it appears as if this game might have a

theme of role-blockers

.

Imagine that! And if that's true, it lends more credence to M4yhem's claim, since I don't believe I have

ever

seen anybody claim a "mystical role-blocker" with a "percentage" of being able to successfully role-block. Perhaps it's not just a

coincidence

that somebody has claimed a variation of a role-blocker role in a game where you yourself claim to have a variation of a role-blocker role.

That apparent lack of thought process you appear to have put into your vote is what makes me think you have come up with your story during the night, instead of actually thinking things through during the day.

[petroleumjelly]

As for your point about the setup, this is a mini regular game. It's not supposed to have a theme. One can easily imagine a setup that only has the pair of odd/even night roleblockers.

You're right. This

is

a Mini Regular game. It shouldn't even

have

even/odd night role-blockers in the first place, but if you are telling the truth, it sure as Hell does. Further, I don't think a game which revolved around role-blockers would necessarily be forced to go in the themed section (although so far as I'm concerned, silly variations should put games into the themed section), just like Dethy (being "Cop-themed" and all) is considered a Mini Regular.

Why do you care if TSQ's vote is lazy? Scummy/not scummy I could see, but lazy?

If you haven't noticed, I don't have very much patience for this game for multiple reasons. If I see something stupid, I'm not going to bother talking around it. TSQ's vote on M4yhem at the break of day was incredibly stupid: if it was going to remain there, I wanted to see some original reasoning.

[petroleumjelly]

I won't answer your question just yet, mith. Waiting for others to comment. I am also interested in seeing who Thok theorizes as being scum now that he's been yelled at.

[petroleumjelly]

Alky, it's a mixture of things that has made me suspicious of you. I would need to do a reread on the game to spell them out more clearly, but it seems like the road you have taken in playing this game is to fade into the background if possible, while taking the middle road on every single possible issue (i.e. the impression I get is "well it could be this or it could be this", "I haven't decided yet", "I will have to do a reread before I give an opinion", "I can see where you're coming from") which in turn makes it so you never give a strong opinion on anybody. Your posts also seem to focus more on preemptive defenses rather than attacking anybody: you just seem to slip on votes when you vote at all, as if to circumvent having to give your own reasoning to back them up.

You have constantly nudged at bandwagons without actually placing votes on them (for example, the Relyte bandwagon during the deleted posts, you certainly gave off the impression that you would have liked him lynched, but you never voted - after Relyte claimed, you voted for

me

after I unvoted Relyte for reasons I have already explained). Then at the end of yesterday, you simply slip your vote onto M4yhem as deadline neared. Your play overall is coming off "oily" to me: slimy and slippery and scummy.

[petroleumjelly]

Don't get sassy with me, Alky: I can't quote specific things because it happened quite a while ago and I

at this moment

I do not have time to reread the thread. I have done quite a bit of attacking this game after reading back in the game

prior to this time

, and I will get to you in due time. I still think there is much discussion to be had on Thok in particular before I start putting you under a magnifying glass.

[petroleumjelly]

This is a long post, so my apologies. I hate reading them as much as anybody, so I will try to be concise.

Post 4 and Post 40 makes possible Rosso connection #1.

As for PJ and LML, first of all, thanks for giving us discussion so early in the game. Who needs random voting now? I think LML is attacking PJ too much on the topic though, much more than he needs to be, but he has a point in PJ pointing out so publically that he believes there to be only one mafia. IMO you shouldn't speculate on that until after at least one night, and after one night, I don't see speculation on it as a scummy thing to do. Knowing if there's one scum group vs. multiple scum groups can be very helpful. Sometimes you can tell when two players are obviously not of the same alignment. If there's only one scum group, and one of those two are scum, then the other is likely town. If there's multiple scum groups, then that other player could still be scum, just in another group.

Alko does not take a stance on either myself or LML in this post whatsoever. Instead, he sticks as much as possible to the theoretical advantages and disadvantages of speculating on scum-groups. I personally enjoy speculating on scum-groups (even if the discussion is not revealing immediately, it is often

extremely

helpful for me later in the game in determining scum), but I often

do

draw the line as soon as speculation seeps into “possible town role” categories. This quote in particular seems to have been designed to be as uncontroversial as possible.

Subtle support without taking a big stand is found in Post 45.

Post 77 is simply restating things which have already been said. I thought the post was rather noncommittal in general, hence my “<3 Alky. You so tricksy” directly afterwards.

Possible connection with Rosso #2 in Post 89 coupled with his responsive Post 99, where he claims he expecting no interaction at all from his Post 89. If he wasn’t expecting any interaction from it, I’m not sure why else he would have posted it. The entire exchange with mith here just seems odd.

Once again, another noncommittal post found in Post 109. First he seems to take a negative view on M4yhem, but then qualifies that by essentially saying “it’s good that he’s posting suspicions, though”. Once again, I am catching Alky trying to be as inoffensive as humanly possible.

At this point in the game, I pointed this exact problem out, here:

Al_Ko: You have been giving your opinions on arguments lately, but not stating who you think is most likely scum. Could you please tell us who you

suspect

instead of who

don't

suspect, possibly in the form of a vote?

In response, we get Post 133. Notice how none of his suspicions are in any semblance “strong”, and now he suddenly says he would vote for M4yhem or Rosso. This looks like a classic scum-maneuver here: “I’m most suspicious of this guy (who turns up town) but I would otherwise vote for this guy (who I not really mentioned as scummy up until this point)”. Rosso connection #3.

Note: Alky, have you looked at M4yhem’s games since Post 139? I personally haven’t, but then again, I’m not the person who said I probably would.

Post 165 features another post where Alko expressed suspicions of Rosso, even though he never elaborated on this. This post actually looks to me like a “partner, for God’s sake, post something” post. Connection #4.

Post 202, look at this, another post without a solid stance. “It could be a jest, I don’t know, but let’s let Rosso tell us”. Not only this noncommittal, but it makes for Connection #5.

Skim, skim, skim… ah, then we have the deleted posts. During this time, I distinctly remember Alky pushing towards M4yhem (along with me, admittedly) on the fact that Relyte analyzed the game with the possibility of him being scum (and as I noted, he

pushed

on the wagon without voting). After Relyte claims Townie, and I explain how I would expect that claim if Relyte were actually town, Alky places his first real vote of the game on

me

during a period of time where the following players had voted for me:

CTD
Rosso
M4yhem
Thok
Relyte

In other words, the timing and placement of his first actual vote struck me as opportunistic. Ho hum… another worthless post (even congratulating the town while offering no insight of his own) found in Post 298 after a long period of non-postingness, followed two days later by the incredibly helpful [/sarcasm] Post 314.

Oooh! A promise of a good post from Alky in Post 248. Soon, very soon! Followed by another Mafia Scum explosion. Followed by yet another “sorry” post (found in Post 376). Followed by another Mafia Scum explosion.

And then we have Post 405! Completely lazy, and pushing on the CES lynch because “everybody’s voicing their intent to lynch him”. Great googly moogly.

Post 410 chastises M4yhem about rereads, without actually doing one himself. And again, Al_Ko completely avoids a reread and helps finish off M4yhem in Post 437. Brilliant. It almost seems like he has reasoning in Post 439, but it mostly contains sarcasm towards M4yhem, as well as “suspicion” towards mith, even though he has not elaborated on that suspicion so far as I recall.

More non-committal comments in Post 449. This post looks like an excuse in not unvoting M4yhem, if anything. Followed by a statement that he is actually rereading the game here, in Post 456, which of course, the results of which are not seen in-thread. We then have the Thok-hammer.

His first response to my being suspicious of him on Day Two is Post 481, which is pretty much useless. He almost seems to express some suspicion of Thok… and he

almost

does again in Post 484. It seems more like Alky is trying to push things towards Thok without actually expressing an opinion.

Alko pushes the “last two voters on M4yhem” agenda in Post 496, even though Norinel was already revealed to be town, and even though Alko himself never took a stand on the last two voters, until I asked him what he though, whereby he responded with Post 499. No strong opinions once again. *sigh* He then mistakenly thinks there is a wagon against him in Post 501 after one vote.

Overall, Alky has been going with the flow, trying to keep out of big issues, not taking any possible objectionable stances, and posting just enough to not be lurking, while constantly promising his “reread” (which never occurred). If anything, he seems to just read the latest discussion, while trying to decide the general mood of the town, and playing his posts towards that mood. I actually just read a game (completely random mentioning this) where mathcam caught Fletcherscum doing exactly that someplace in a Pokemon Mafia Game. I'm catching the same vibe. I think he is scum.

If I had to guess at a scum-group, it would be Al_Ko, Rosso [now LuckayLuck]. Third member is up in the air. Thok and mith come to mind most readily.

[petroleumjelly]

Now I really don't feel like trying because there seems to be nobody who doesn't think I'm scum, nobody's going to listen to me, and I have a lot more work I need to be doing besides wasting my time here where my voice will not be heard.


I'll let you guys go ahead and lynch me and bring the scum one step closer to winning this game. If I happen to find time and reason enough to care to post something of content here, maybe I will and maybe somebody will listen, but I doubt it.

You know, the

last

time I saw some one take a completely defeatist attitude, they were scum. If you're town, buck up. If you're scum, go ahead and let us lynch you.

You also say "many things are false", yet the only example you give is:

For one instance, you say I pushed the CES lynch. I in no way tried pushing it, I merely stated what I saw, which was everybody voicing their scummy opinion on CES. It's like how now there are people voicing their scummy opinions of me, and a few days ago, there were people voicing their scummy opinions of Thok. I did not back it up, I never posted anything against CES, I've even made posts that clearly said I had no idea why people where voting CES.

Which I disagree with. The post read to me like "Hey, we're not going anywhere, so let's just lynch CES and get it over with since that's where everybody is leaning anyways". I consider that advocating a CES-lynch.

[petroleumjelly]

Try reading my posts, Thok, if you want to know why I'm suspicious of Rosso (now LuckayLuck).

[petroleumjelly]

You haven't read my posts then.

1.) The early exchanges with Alko (who looks scummy)
2.) The fact that the town inexplicably went after CES over Rosso (telling me scum may have been pushing an agenda)
3.) The offer to "hammer" instead of vote
4.) His accusation that I was "making a case against LML" (there were at least 3 posts where I specifically asked Rosso to talk about this, if you had actually read them), and that I my "attack" was "crap" (which he never even bothered to explain)
5.) Rosso's immediate change of stance towards me after one post, citing "meta-game" and nothing else
6.) The fact that all of his suspicions suited his interests (which I also had a post saying, showing me

again

that you did not read my posts)
7.) The fact that he has hopped on all three major bandwagons (Relyte, M4yhem, me)

[petroleumjelly]

That's you misreading the post. Somebody once said that nobody remembers exactly what was said, everybody just remembers their own meaning of it. Exactly what I typed is there for all to see, and your interpretation is different then my implied meaning, which is "many people are voicing their opinion that CES is scum, and a deadline is coming soon, it looks like CES is going to be lynched." And you consider my observation advocating a lynch that seems to be already prevalent.

That's not me misreading your post. That is me reading your post, and wondering why you said what you did. You are adding absolutely nothing to the game if all you are saying is:

"CES looks like he will be lynched, even though people aren't voting him."

If that is all you meant to say, then that means you

once again did not express an opinion one way or another

. And in that same post, you mention that you have "avoided a reread", meaning you sure weren't going to add any other thoughts to the game either.

Mafia is a game of reading past the obvious. Perhaps you should try doing that sometime. Add something to the game. Take stances on players. Defend yourself, or if you can't (or refuse) to do that, claim. I do not enjoy this game, but I am at least taking efforts to make it better. You can do the same.

[petroleumjelly]

It's fine to be angry with me, Alky.

The fact is, in one week, this game will hit the

four month mark

. Most mini games would be over by now. Players who have been playing a game for almost four months should have a fair idea of who they think is scummy by that time, even if there has been a month (I will consider that all of November) full of Mafia Scum crashes.

I am more than willing to wait for your analysis, but I do expect to see one (a finished one) soon.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Al_Kohaulec

Considering Thok seems to be absent of all thought processes whatsoever when it comes to hammer votes in this game, I would rather not give him another chance at this time.

[petroleumjelly]

@ Alko: Link me to three posts where you actually show an interest in finding scum in this game.

@ Pabs: What purpose was your revote on Alky supposed to serve?

I just reread TSQ's posts, and realized that I must have been ignoring them, because they do not satiate Jelly.

FoS: TSQ

. Give me your top three guesses at scum and explanations why.

[petroleumjelly]

That seems extraordinarily un-Pablito-like.

Man alive I hate this game.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Al_Kohaulec

Considering Thok seems to be absent of all thought processes whatsoever when it comes to hammer votes in this game, I would rather not give him another chance at this time.

You did read my post 558, right?

Oh, I read it. I just like like poking at you.

[petroleumjelly]

CTD, it’s been 11 days since your last post. Let’s have some thoughts.

LuckayLuck, it’s been a week since your last post, where you promised explanations for that same post.

TSQ, it’s been 12 days since your last post, which didn’t even add any real thoughts to the game.

Games don’t magically get interesting on their own, people.

[petroleumjelly]

My suspicions on PJ are easing a bit. Apart from the "I-told-you-so" stuff, his day 2 contributions have not bothered me the way some of his D2 plays have. I still consider his involvement in the early M4yhem wagon and his hostile reaction to being accused fishy, but his actions today for the most part seem reasonable from a pro-town perspective.

1.) What is the difference between my "Day 2 contributions" v "my Day 2 plays"?
2.) How do you think I

should

have responded to M4yhem on Day 1?

[petroleumjelly]

But really, I'm too impatient, so I'd rather we just lynch you now.

Then why did you join a game where D1 lasted approximately three months? Were you expecting us to pick up the pace?

[petroleumjelly]

Not very impressed with Alky, I have to say. Of particular note:

LuckayLuck/Rosso is town.

Rosso went through this game barely here, not caring much. He had little interest, and joked some. He hasn't done anything incredibly scum IMO, and hasn't helped us much either, but I believe his actions show him to be protown.

This doesn't even make sense to me. "His actions show him to be protown" has pretty much no basis behind it, because he doesn't even bother to explain why he thinks this. The placement of Rosso on the list (under me) is making me double-think the Alko-Rosso connection. In particular, that it is in fact just the opposite:

if

Alko ends up being scum, the way he worded this (it strikes me as purposefully weak, yet with a strong stance of "town"), as well as the placement of Rosso on the list, makes me think Alky is trying to consolidate a false connection so that he might be able to take a townsperson down with him later in the game if he is going to be lynched.

If Alky hasn't finished his analysis, I would like him to say as much, and then finish it.

[petroleumjelly]

But I am curious, PJ:
Who do you believe was the driving force behind the M4yhem mislynch?

I don't feel like reading that section of the game at the moment, so I'm going to take a "wild guess" and say myself and mith. I'm certainly not going to apologize or say my play was incorrect, if that is what you're angling for.

M4yhem's play was scummy (even though he still denies it), and I bet on a reread, I would still think it was scummy. But here's the thing:

I would feel

much

more stupid if he was scum and I

did not

press on him for such blatant scummery, then if (as it turned out) he was town and I

did

press on him. I fully expect to pressure the occasional townsperson in mafia games.

Question right back at you. For what purpose did you ask that question? It has the smell of "trap" all over it. It looks like you're trying to make me more responsible for his lynch than I actually am, seeing as I was not even one of the

six

people who were voting him at the time of his being lynched, and that I did not fully agree with his lynch by the end of Day One. I certainly wasn't all-out against it, seeing as he could very well have

been

scum with that type posting, but I was certainly veering away from it.

And (as if I needed my point to be proven about M4yhem):

M4yhem, LuckayLuck

is

voting for Al_Kohaulec. He did it quite a while ago, in big, bold letters.

[petroleumjelly]

PJ found my predecessor, Rosso, to be scummie due to his ties, so my comment was mostly directed to him.

How well have you read my posts, Luckay?

[petroleumjelly]

Oh man, I am up way too early in the morning. Stupid dentist appointments...

Anyways...I'm somewhat surprised at your comment, did I misinterpret badly?

The point of my comment is that I was not solely suspicious of Rosso (now you) because of the possible connections to Al_Ko. Thok asked me a similar question earlier in the game, which resulted with me listing off 5-7 reasons I thought Rosso was scummy (much too tired to scroll back and find out how many). I just don't like people oversimplifying my reasons.

At the very least, your take on the game is interesting. I am not so confident in Thok being town as you are, it seems, nor Pablito, although I do admit I don't think either of them are proper lynches for today.

You

should

keep in mind that believable role-claims (even though I don't find Thok's particularly "believable") do not necessarily make a person more likely to be town (I myself have been called "cleared" simply because of a fake-claim in a past game, which Thok coincidentally played in).

Furthermore, you should keep in mind

what

Thok could possibly fake-claim after hammering M4yhem1 yesterday if he is scum. One of the few stories I could think up for scum to use if they wanted to "explain" their actions was to claim a variant of a role-blocker role, and then claim something along the lines of "I didn't think there would be two pro-town role-blockers". Seeing Thok do exactly that did not please me, although of course the irony is it would still help to "explain" is actions if he is actually town (even though if he

is

town, I still think his hammer was premature, and he should have allowed for discussion/comments on M4yhem's claim, especially seeing as we did not need a full 6 votes in order to get a lynch).

Hammer al_koh, hammerhammerhammer, I think we've gotten all the useful information we'll get out of him. Hammerhammerhammer!!

Once again, not true. Al_Ko should finish his analysis. He does not appear likely to bother defending himself, so by this point, I am expecting a role-claim from him in the future after he is finished with that.

[petroleumjelly]

There seems to be an annoying habit in my games lately where all I have to do is suggest the possibility of claiming and people claim quickly thereafter. I was expecting a claim in the

future

, not the immediate future. Gah.

I'll have to mull on this. As it is, I've already given Luckay the same spiel about his method of analysis in another game and why I think it flawed on more than one level.

[petroleumjelly]

Uh-hunh.

TSQ, how large a role do you think you had in

solidifying

M4yhem's lynch from yesterday?

Before you answer this question, I suggest you isolate your posts, and then tell me what you think.

[petroleumjelly]

I had a large role in lynching m4yhem. I thought he was scum, and pushed him accordingly, including having my vote on him and posting a case against him. You, on the other hand, did niether of these things,...

Wrong on both counts. I did post a case against M4yhem (almost as soon as he entered the game), and I did vote him. After Pooky interrogated him, and I got a better grip on M4yhem's play, I became less suspicious of him. That's how mafia works. If I chose one person to push on and never relented, I would not be much of a mafia player. I push players to see reactions and others' reactions.

and instead pushed other people in his direction, which to me has the feel of staying off of a wagon you knew was bad to make yourself look better, and to cast aspersions on the people on the wagon, two things which you have done.

Really? Please show me where I "pushed other people in his direction". I could not know whether or not M4yhem was a "bad lynch" yesterday, hence why I had to probe around. Furthermore, yes: I am going to be more than a little suspicious of people who finished off M4yhem, especially in such an unceremonious manner as yesterday. The fact that I was not voting for him at the time of the lynch certainly doesn't put me anywhere in the clear whatsoever, and that was not what I was arguing: I was stating that the fact that I had originally pushed M4yhem during a time I thought he was scummy does not make

me

scummy, and I was not pleased that CTD's question seemed to be pointed at me towards making that exact impression, as if he were trying to make me more responsible for the lynch than I actually was.

[petroleumjelly]

I have to agree with TSQ that it looks like a null tell to me. Both Alky and myself have wanted this game abandoned for quite a long time, and I don't believe either of us are enjoying the game whatsoever. There have been nine replacements, as well as a mod replacement, a three month Day One, and the set-up certainly appears as if it should not be in the Mini Regular section. Add on that the fact that Alky has been attacked for quite a while on Day Two and I can understand his apathy; but I can see that apathy happening as town or scum.

[petroleumjelly]

pj, I believe you are the only player not currently voting. Who do you find suspicious right now?

Same people as before. Alky, you, Thok, Luckay (was Rosso). I don't know what to think of M4yhem2, because it looks like he doing the exact same things as yesterday whenever I read his posts.

I'm at the point where I am not confident enough to vote for Alky, but at the same time, we have had so many claims in this game so far that I am wondering whether or not it would be beneficial to pressure people who have not claimed, to the point where they may feel compelled to claim. If I am only to stick to those who already

have

claimed (those people being Pablito, Thok, and Alky), I would probably prefer an Al_Ko lynch, but my problem is that I am

not

enthralled by the people currently voting for him.

I would mostly like this game to die, however.

[petroleumjelly]

*chomp*

[petroleumjelly]

Did a somewhat focused reread. I got a distinct pro-town vibe from AmeliaSlay, but I can't remember who replaced her at the moment.

Also noticing that I have indeed been all over the place this game. *shrug*

I keep getting acquiescent vibes from mith towards me. I've probably mentioned this earlier, but I viewed all his posts in isolation and got the same feeling again.

I don't find what petroleumjelly said initially (or in arguing with LML) particularly unreasonable. I do find it interesting that he is still voting for Thok, though.

Ugh. The stupid "why is PJ still voting for Thok?" issue still seems incredibly stupid. Upon asking "why should I take it off?", we have:

pj: Why leave it on? There was enough discussion to form better-than-random suspicions. I don't buy the bit about him not having contributed; the game was barely a day old.

Which was untrue: at that point in the game, the only other contributor was pretty much LML, and I didn't find him suspicious enough to warrant a vote at the time. When I pointed it that it seemed like mith was trying to make me look somehow suspicious for not unvoting Thok, we had:

pj, I never said it was suspicious. I said it was interesting. I was curious to find whether your motivations were consistent and believable. I consider random votes to be worthless, but I understand that not everyone views them in the same way.

I disagreed then, and I disagree now. By the wording of Post 26, it boils down to me as "PJ's stance on the scum group is reasonable. Leaving his vote on Thok (note the use of the word "though", which expresses an opposite opinion to the first) was

not

reasonable. I see that as an attempt to cast slight suspicion, with a denial of doing so afterwards.

After I effectively quash mith's route towards attacking

me

, I make Post 56 followed by mith's Post 57, where he follows me. Ding!

pj, I never said "OMG, three votes" was an issue. I initially left it (my interest) vague, and later clarified that it was because there were other things happening (particularly CES's third-vote, MM's self-vote, and the argument with LML) which might have (should have?) given you something more to go on than randomness.

"We coo', bro? You dig me? Nothin' against you, dawg."

*feebly tries to make a reconciliatory fist-to-fist connection*

I dunno, this post just reads like a white guy trying to wiggle out of a narrowing corner. Not quite sure why I'm mentioning this, to be frank.

Afterwards, mith seems to make it a mission to mention things I've mentioned.

LML hasn't made any further comment on me, but he has posted. And he's done a bit of fishing, as pj pointed out.

pj's summary is pretty much what I would've said, so I won't waste words repeating it.

pj hasn't set off my scum-o-meter at all yet. If I had to pick one player (other than myself) as most likely to be innocent, it would be him. I'm quite surprised he has three votes.

I remain content with my Rosso vote. I'm glad pj brought up Pie C9, I probably would've mentioned it if he hadn't. His point (I think) is that while most of what he has done in this game is just "playstyle" (like CES), in Rosso's case said "playstyle" is bad for the town (whereas CES has just been mostly harmless). Scummy behavior shouldn't be completely excused just because of playstyle.

pj, talk away. I do still find you the most innocent, but I don't know where you get the idea I'm "following" you, so you'll have to elaborate

Bah, now I'm already doubting myself with Post 303.

Italicized because this is not relevant to mith. TSQ, did you ever explain yourself for Post 349? You seem to have reversed pretty much all of your suspicions by now (having voted for me, Thok, and Relyte [Pablito] who you said were town, while being wrong about M-M, M4yhem, and now heading away from Rosso [LuckayLuck].

And damnit. I don't know. I'm tired, and I don't like this game. I might try to finish this post later.

Although there was something I had originally caught that I wanted explained, let me see if I can find it again...

Oh yes, the possible connection between Alko/Rosso [now Luckay].

pj, 547: Regarding the al/Rosso connection, posts 4 and 40 would actually lead me to the opposite conclusion. I don't see al making a joke like that if he was scum with Rosso.

Now:

3. I normally don't think much about linking people until we actually have a dead scum to link with, but LL's wording in 626 (that he has "set [himself] completely apart from" al), coupled with a few comments from al regarding Rosso (he's never been shy about saying he thinks Rosso was innocent) makes me wonder if LL is scum with al.

Hey, it's a better theory than the nonsense in

617. FOS: LuckayLuck

Explain, please?

[petroleumjelly]

Feh, I probably won't finish that post any time soon. Maybe some day. Still, I would like TSQ to explain his shift in suspicions from yesterday to his votes today.

[petroleumjelly]

Are you even reading the thread?

Still, I would like TSQ to explain his shift in suspicions from yesterday to his votes today.

[petroleumjelly]

Let me know if you are desirous of any

game abandonments.

Yes please.

I don't see this day going anywhere, and nobody seems compelled to change that. I would rather see if I can get TSQ to answer my question, however, seeing as a vote would not even be necessary for Alko to be lynched at deadline in any case.

[petroleumjelly]

(sighs)

*bites alky*

<continually erases comments that otherwise would have gone here to the point where I'm just going to leave it at this>

[petroleumjelly]

I agree that we need to abandon this game.

Fixed.

And in any case, I just read over TSQ's posts in literally one minute, and it seems pretty apparent to me that TSQ probably had an innocent result on Al_Ko yesterday. Notice how he talks about the case on Al_Ko being weak, how giving up is a town tell for Alky in this game, while also consistently trying to divert the lynch about anywhere except Alky. That's probably why he was killed: scum knew Alky was town, and figured since they weren't getting called out as scum, there was a fair chance a Cop (if there was one) had investigated an innocent, so they might as well go after the person who defended the innocent who was to be lynched.

FoS: mith

, your post was completely dumb. You look at TSQ's posts and automatically figure that TSQ didn't have an innocent investigation on those four people and somehow

missed

the person TSQ was going out of his way to

avoid

voting? Methinks you were purposely omitting that.

I agree that we are probably in Lynch-or-Lose. If I had to finger a scum group, it would be mith, LuckayLuck [Rosso], and Thok. I would currently lynch them in that order, given a choice.

[petroleumjelly]

Not quite sure at the moment. You have claimed an extraordinarily convenient role (in that it firstly allowed you to have a "reason" to hammer M4yhem1 on D1, and secondly in that if we lynch scum [other than you if you are scum, of course] today, you will have no problems in making sure you don't contradict yourself with something since you claim to be an even-night role-blocker and hence will not role-block tomorrow. In addition to that, I am not particularly happy with your role-claim in the least, seeing as I don't believe a role such as yours really belongs in a Mini Regular in the first place.

On the other hand, I am very much aware that if you claim to contradict somebody (in terms of if they claim a night-action), the town will have at least one scum narrowed down between two people. Of course, this would also happen if you are scum and claim to have role-blocked somebody who

did

have a night action. In either case, there will be one scum within two players; allowing you to claim last gives you the initiative in claiming to have role-blocked whatever is most convenient for you, however, thereby giving you a much larger advantage (in a scum v town scenario, not assuming scum v scum) than if you were to claim who you role-blocked first, and then to be contradicted by that person (if that were to happen at all).

I agree that I'm not quite sure I trust you enough to be willing to let you claim your night-action last, given the above.

[petroleumjelly]

Feel free to leave a breadcrumb if you wish, but I haven't decided when I want you to claim your target. I am fairly tired, so I don't think I'm in a good state of mind to be deciding things like that. And that's not even considering the fact that it's not like I'm guaranteed pro-town and everything I say will be looked upon with awe and anything I ask for will be done in complete deference. There are other players who should have a say on when you reveal your target.

While I'm here, though:

This is WIFOM, but do people really thing I'd have let yesterday last so long if I was scum? Conversation helps the town, and it's not like hammering alko would have made me look any scummier than hammering M4yhem1 already made me look.

Just don't even say things like this. Yes: you would let a conversation continue as scum. Al_Ko was probably going to be lynched no matter what happens, and since conversation wasn't exactly bubbling from the ground, there was pretty much no harm in letting it continue. And I guarantee if you had hammered Al_Ko yesterday, I would be calling for your head on a platter today: that would have been completely unacceptable.

TSQ still needs to answer my question from yesterday.

[petroleumjelly]

Ah, frick, ignore that last line. I realized TSQ was dead just as I hit submit.

[petroleumjelly]

You're already calling for my head on a platter...

Our definitions differ, then. If I was calling for your head on a platter, that would mean I vote you immediately, argue absolutely everything possible I can think of against you, relentlessly pick apart everything I can find to pick apart, and flat out refuse to vote anybody but you today despite the fact that I know we are likely in Lynch-in-Lose. I would say there is a conserable difference between that and what I am doing.

As an answer to your side note, I would characterize myself as "wishy-washy" on both lynches.

[petroleumjelly]

EBWOP:

Conserable = Considerable. I am tired.

[petroleumjelly]

When Thok attacks Alky for giving up, TSQ contends that it is a “null tell”. He then tells Thok he is stretching. He then explains what Alky’s state of mind may have been (“he hates this game”). Since other players have expressed equal hatred of the game and TSQ made no efforts to protect

them

in such a manner, this leads me to believe Alky would have been TSQ’s investigation.

OMGYFS: pj. If I thought it was apparent that TSQ had al as innocent, why would I "purposely omit" that information? Just so you could bring it up as something against me? That was a rushed post, and I only looked at votes.

If nobody brought it up, that would certainly have worked to your advantage. Hence why you would omit it as scum; if you could try to call one of your scumbuddies (or yourself) as likely to have been invesigated innocent, it makes perfect sense why you would fail to mention something like that.

[petroleumjelly]

Luckay: stop being so blind.

1.) Nobody needed to hammer

anybody

, technically speaking. The person with the most votes is lynched in this game. The only thing hammering did in that situation was end discussion.
2.) Thok, as scum, would very well know that he would probably be able to talk himself out of a lynch on Day 2, especially if he claims something similar to M4yhem's role as justification. Try looking at Verbose 2 Mafia: Thok has no qualms being on town-lynches as scum whatsoever.
3.) Thok's reasoning

could can from town or scum

. Seriously sit down and think. What do you

think

scum would claim as a role if they got caught hammering a townsperson? They're going to need a

good

reason. Hammering and then saying "I was basically counter-claiming" is the

first

explanation anybody would think of.
4.) This assumes that Thok is telling the

truth

about his role.

Mass-claim is probably in our best interests. We should determine an order soon.

[petroleumjelly]

Edit:

3.) Thok's reasoning

could

can

come from town or scum

...

[petroleumjelly]

Luckay, M4yhem was

not

an even/odd-night role-blocker. Try reading his claim again.

Furthermore,

if

that was what M4yhem had claimed, wouldn't that make it

more likely

that M4yhem was telling the truth? I have never seen a game with even/odd-night role-blockers. Assume Thok is telling the truth and is an even-night role-blocker. In that same game, for the first time, somebody claims odd-night role-blocker (extremely unlikely). Since the two roles would complement each other so cleanly (each blocking on different nights), that would only make it more likely that M4yhem was being completely

truthful

, not lying.

Your logic from that position (which is incorrect) does not make sense.

[petroleumjelly]

Let's see.

12-player game. 11 replacements. One modkill. One replaced mod. And it has taken about five months to finish two days. The players who have died most recently (Alko and TSQ) both

wanted

to die because they disliked the game so much, and there are still players in the game who would rather not be eating nails (see: me). There seem to be completely improbable roles for something which is supposed to be a Mini Regular game.

Why

has this game not been abandoned? This is disgusting. It is more of a chore than anything to force myself to even look at this game, since all it does is distract me from doing other things I actually enjoy.

Vote: Town of Suspicion

. DIE SCUM DIE.

[petroleumjelly]

Would you modkill me if I continued to complain, Kelly?

[petroleumjelly]

What's that one word?

Oh yeah. "No". Mass-claiming is clearly the best option here.

[petroleumjelly]

Thok -

To be honest, I cannot tell the difference between M4yhem1 and M4yhem2; they both seem erratic, and I think I find his posts annoying (if not scummy) regardless of his alignment (since I found M4yhem1 scummy, and he turned out to be town, so I imagine I would get the same impression even if he were scum). I would have to reread the game in order to see if I can find a discernable difference.

But I guess that doesn't answer your exact question. I'm not completely sure what to think of it - I can understand that M4yhem might have a vendetta against the player he thought was "responsible" for his lynch (besides you, since he asserted that he believed his role-claim, if I'm remembering correctly). But I can also see that being an absurdly simple shield to hide behind to excuse his actions [note: this is one reason why I have decided that players should not rereplace into games where they have already died. Either the town wanted them dead, or some scum wanted them down; either way, somebody is not going be happy with them coming back, especially since they are not coming into the game with a tabula rosa).

I realize I am pretty much sitting on the fence here, but this is primarily because I can see absolutely any player as being scum in this game, and it's not a comforting feeling. I usually have about one or two people I think are very likely to be town, but I do not have that luxury here.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm. Although people normally

do

have a better idea on who they want to lynch once there have been three deaths and revealings of alignment (although M4yhem already

knew

his own alignment, and I'm not sure what, if anything, he said/thought about Norinel off the top of my head), I didn't precisely think of it in that manner.

Is this town even deader than usual? Who is up for mass-claim, and how do we propose to go about it? There are a couple of tried-and-true methods:

1.) Going down/up the sign-up list (I would discourage this one the most)
2.) Popcorn method (choose one person to claim, then that person chooses the next, etc)
3.) Randomly, by a dice roll feature. I actually think a popcorn dice-roll would be preferable in this case, so that the choosing is still random, but scum can't anticipate when they have to claim.
4.) Try to have everybody on the site at the same time, and claim at the same time

I think I like #3 - I have seen #4 tried in at least one other game, and I'm pretty sure people "had something come up" so they couldn't post, blah blah (although I don't currently recall if those people were scum). Of course, Thok's target claim still has to be decided on when he is to claim that: before we claim, while we're claiming, or after we're done claiming. We would also need to decide whether or night people should claim night-targets/results while claiming, or simply their role.

Lots to do.

[petroleumjelly]

^ I realize you must have been posting while I posted. Please answer questions.

[petroleumjelly]

I have asked to be replaced. Good luck to the town, etc.

[petroleumjelly]

Too many replacements. The role-blockers didn't belong in this game. The mod needed replacement, and many players expressed a want for the

game to end immediately

upon this maneuver, but KC commandeered it to continue regardless. There had to be a modkill [punishment for town] for something the town had no control over on Day One.

Also, the set-up looks unbalanced to me. Whenever you put two roles that are the same in this manner in the same game, there is almost inevitably a lynch on one of them. The only other time I've seen two town role-blockers in a Mini Game was ScumChat Mini Mafia... one of them was lynched on Day One of that game almost immediately after claiming. The same exact thing happened here.

3 Mafia [No abilities] v 1 Cop + 1 Doc + 8 Townies is balanced.

This game essentially began with two easy pushes for lynches [both role-blockers], so I consider this a considerably weak pairing. I think the Investigation Immunity for the Mafia was completely unnecessary.

Well played to the scum regardless.

[petroleumjelly]

1.) I don't dislike regular games. I'm not sure where you are getting this impression. I

prefer

themed games, but I have nothing against regular games.

2.) Myself, Relyte, Al_Kohaulec all wanted the game to be abandoned (at least). There may have been others.

3.) Regardless of whether or not I liked how this game turned out, I still am not partial to the set-up. This is an objective eye looking at the set-up. I think the investigation immunity was unneccessary given what I know about balance, and I'm not particularly fond of giving the town two pro-town role-blockers (when problems with this are more than foreseeable), when even further those same role-blockers definitely push the envelop for a normal mini game which is supposed to contain normal roles.