Open 457: Double Day Unlimited - GAME OVER!

[Rainbowdash]

So important theory type thing in this setup - large amount of votes out are anti-town in nature. If you MUST have multiple out it needs to be explicitly clear who your top suspect is.

Vote Venrob

Also rule 8? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. If this is a problem please see rule 12.

[Rainbowdash]

To be more specific, don't put out more than 2 votes at a time. I mean, RVS is fine, but to increase responsibility for your votes only 2 are really needed.

Even two votes are borderline bad. The more votes the more chaos and confusion and thats something that helps scum far more than town in just about any situation.

One vote. If you must have more you absolutely have down who is your top suspect.

[Rainbowdash]

The problem with two votes is it makes analysis harder as unless its very explicit it can be hard to tell who actually somepony has as a top suspect or anything like that. Even then it can allow for a misrepresentation of wagons in the long run, especially if some players take to throwing out a large amount of votes.

[Rainbowdash]

Hello.

Vote: RainbowDash

Whenever I see you talk about setup, I think it's scummy.

Sample set of 1.

Its why I play opens, they can be optimized. That particular setup though was replacing into an almost impossible situation and therefore my only option being breaking the setup so badly that it is no longer an open allowing a prayer chance of winning for doing so.

But I love breaking down setups, town or scum. If we know what is right it limits chance of stupidity injuring us.

[Rainbowdash]

But I love breaking down setups, town or scum. If we know what is right it limits chance of stupidity injuring us.

Well that's awfully altruistic of you to do as scum. I'm not saying you wouldn't do this setup analysis regardless of alignment, I just want to know what your actual reason would be for doing it as scum.

Thats really easy - predictabilty.

While optimizing setups tends to give town a better win chance, doing the same thing makes the game follow more of a set path which eliminates most chances of a really random play impacting chances as scum. Ive seen horrible logic moves win games before, and im willing to essentially give up a few percent points as scum to avoid swing.

@Chaos - Are your votes random? If not why?

[Rainbowdash]

Chaos/Emp/Venrob are all good lynches here. Once Chaos answers my question I will move my vote or not.

[Rainbowdash]

I mean while the mechanic is about being able to vote for multiple people, I don't think that jumping on every bandwagon is particularly townie, Venrob

Why are you leaving me at L-1 for something that is a proven null tell?

Also the mechanic is being able to lynch twice... I think this replaced Double Day because it was too large of a setup which caused disinterest and the "multi vote" was to try and make it more appealing (which in actuality it does very much so the opposite).

[Rainbowdash]

How something is done is at least as important as what is done. Dash did it in a pro-active manner to curry leader-points; you simply posted.

Not everypony is logical, or smart. If I get town points for it, then its a good byproduct, but im not about to start letting the game become difficult to manage and more difficult to discern tells due to an oversaturation of votes. Way too many players dont get that one of the greatest advantages we have going in opens is that they can be optimized, and this is one of those setups that can be in a sense by not going crazy with votes.

unvote

L-1 this early is a bit much.

@build - Simple is better. The more you complicate things the more you open the doors for someone to do something stupid. Its a pessimistic view but one I have seen reinforced again and again. Ive seen town throw away a textbook forced win and textbook forced draw before because too much was going on. Not these "thats tricky" wins, but on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a "lynch confirmed scum".. maybe a 3 tops.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote all

/rule gripes

Venrob can fall behind Emp/CO.

[Rainbowdash]

VM and Bulidmar should stop arguing because they are both more likely than not town.

@Venrob - Why did you order the "Vote All" list the way you did?

Im thinking Venrob-town means we have scum in shos and MK. Its really opportunistic attacking on a move I expected at least one pony to pull, and then lo and behold the VI pulls it. Sure its a horrible move but I think its going to happen either way, the ordering of his list though im actually a little interested in for what im hoping are obvious reasons. Not sure on Venrob yet... his motivations mostly seem random but there are a few things from him that are obviously not random which when compared to his answer may give his alignment.

[Rainbowdash]

Its really opportunistic attacking on a move I expected at least one pony to pull, and then lo and behold the VI pulls it. Sure its a horrible move but I think its going to happen either way

Why is it more opportunistic to attack an opportunistic move than it is to be the first opportunist? Also, do you think your potential vote on me or shos would be less opportunistic? Why? I just can't really follow your chain of thought here.

You are voting for a VI tell more then anything else. Venrob is the type that really doesnt know any better, town or scum he would make that exact vote. What you are trying to argue is that you can tell a VI random vote motivation alignment, when really - you cant. Somepony was going to do that vote, it just was a matter of who, its like sticking a child in a room with a button, telling them they cant push it, and leaving. That button is getting pushed.

Wish VM wouldnt have answered for Venrob there.

You ponies need to look like town if you are town.

Vote Emp

Also good lynches: shos, Chaos

Everypony else is more null to town, I wouldnt mind lynching Venrob but I think he is more of a town liability then he is scum.

[Rainbowdash]

@92: Rainbow tell me please oh please do, are you seriously letting this go with the thought of 'well, SOMEONE would have done that anyway'?

Absolutely. Remember the story about the filly and the button? That happens regardless of their alignment and maybe even MORE likely as town. Its stupid for them to do but more indicative of their playstyle

You also haven't responded to the fact that the votes are not ordered as they should be - they are 91234567. or perhaps you agree with void's sort-of-explanation?

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that I was the one who brought up the weird order? I got a pseudo answer I was expecting even though I would have loved to see it from Venrob instead. Unless you are calling a VM-Venrob team... you shouldnt be reading into it as any type of a tell.

any reasons for that vote? and why exactly am I a good lynch and

who the hell is chaos

nvm.

Yes. You are an excellent lynch, I almost voted you over Emp. Will get it up soon, but you are really seeming to pick some things out at your convience for pushes and quickly try and associate yourself with groups.

Emp is just not being obviously town like he normally is as town amungst other things. He is far better than most give him credit for, but this game he is taking a lot of the easy moves.

[Rainbowdash]

vote shos

Much better path with venrob being town.

And you laughed when I said "most ponies arent to be trusted logic wise". Uticon is still null, ugly hammer but way blown out of porportion - Venrob lynch wasnt going anywhere and there were far worse wagons that for some reason had wheels.

[Rainbowdash]

blown out of proportions? are you aware that the guy hammered him before he even had a chance to respond? before he posted 6 posts in the entire game? and SO QUICKLY INTO D1?? you have to be either reaaaaaalllllly stupid to do that(no offense yes?) or plain scum opportunist. he didn't even think that venrob was scum - he plainly said that 'from experience' sheeping is the best(???).

Absolutely.

While its not great play to quickhammer, a lot of the normal issues with it are removed in this setup because you cant hit a power role or anything of the sort. If you actually think the slot is scum, not much is wrong with it. While I completely disagree with the hammer, I actually can understand it a little. Bad play =/= scum, Venrob proved that for us early.

and quit it with the ponies, this freaks my out >_>

Emp might be town since he actually is seeing this for what it is too.

[Rainbowdash]

So what you're saying is that it is very legitimate for scum to quickhammer at any time. you understand. it's not great but there's nothing wrong in shutting a person up before he manages to speak.

Okay yeah. You are definantly scum.

First, you are voting me because you disagree with me saying the hammer is a null tell. Second, you left him at L-1 and continued to call him scum and even jumped on ME when I started backing off calling him scum because the tell worked the way I thought it would. Third, you really went with a pick and choose for game events throughout that first day. You never mentioned the fact that his votes were out of order untill I did, and then used that tell very poorly (likely ment scum with VM or town) and when I explained why a tell was null attacked me for it. You even looped to trying to make me think he was scum for something I initally pointed out. Plus you initally jump on Venrob for a massive null tell.

The problem is that you say "vote remains until I get answers" but did you really expect to get any different answer at that point then what VM gave? I sure didnt expect anything different. If he was town, thats what he was going for. If he was scum, its a logical coverup. The tell when explained by VM was shown as null (again) unless VM was also scum. You pushed on him hard for multiple null tells, while being super interested in one completely ignored a major part of it, and then complain when he gets lynched?

You are scum here. Your votes are entrecnched in null tells and hypocrasy as you try to continue to attack for disgreeing with you.

[Rainbowdash]

I was the second voter. I was not the one who put him at L-1, and even then, I do not have to unvote in such a case. pressure is good; I was expecting him to answer you know, perhaps you skipped my post of LETS WAIT FOR HIM TO SAY WHY HE VOTED THAT WAY. don't you dare blame me for the fact that he quickhammered.

Very nice deflection attempt. Was hoping you would bring up the "didnt put at L-1" thing. If you are on a wagon at L-1 in a VT setup, you essentially have to be supporting it enough that it could be hammered because its argueable that its correct to simply do so if the opportunity arises.

You were not the one who said it was out of order; you asked him why he voted in that order, you didn't say which. *I* was the one who compared that order to the list at the first post, and I was pursuing that later too. even so, what would it matter if it was you who brought it up? you never kept pushing anything. you keep saying that bla bla null tell bla bla null tell; well I clearly specified(among others too) that I do NOT think it is a null tell, and, once again, I WAITED FOR HIM TORESPOND. are you seriously saying that a quickhammer on a person before he gets the chance to explain is a legit idea? cuz if so that's a reaaaaally really dumb pony.

If actually a very clever pony and will let others trap themselves. It was obvious the order was just shifted from OP with VM at the top, and just was interested to see what Venrob did without any sort of prompting on what exactly I was looking at. Thing is, unless you again were trying to argue that VM-Venrob was the team - IT WAS NULL. Venrob for some reason singled out VM, it could be because they were partners, or had some history that others didnt. Keeping it vauge increases the chance of scum trying to do something like overexplain.

What possible tell (outside of afformentioned partnership) did you see from that?

Again, quickhammer was bad but not horrible. If you are calling him scum and the tell has been essentially explained by another - you are sort of tempting a hammer from somepony on the fence. You really think it would have been explained differently by Venrob?

Basically you attacked him for null tells.

Vote all? Thats a null tell.
Out of order? Thats more or less a null tell when VM explained it.

The issue I really have with the out of order attack is that you cant explain it as to why its a scumtell when ive asked you too. Now you are attacking uticon when I really dont think anything Venrob could have said would have made you go "oh he is town" at this point. VM explained it perfectly, really the only thing Venrob could have done would have been made it look worse.

Uticon is also a bit too proactive to be scum from what ive seen of him, granted it was a sample of one game but he really shyed away from conflict in that one. His post calling everypony null, that more of what uticon-scum is, not deciding to come in and quickhammer.

VM is probably town
Bulidmar is probably town
uticon is null-town
Emp is null-town

shos is scum
Chaos is null-scum

One of those two, shos massively prefered. His OMGUS vote on me is more or less icing on the cake. His case on me essentially is I am calling Uticon town.

[Rainbowdash]

first quote - that's exactly the point. it was NOT arguable, at all, if that was a correct thing to do. is there anyone here who thinks that hammering was correct in that situation? ignore the flip for a sec - would you have hammered? no? why not then?

I wouldnt have hammered because I didnt see a situation where he was scum without VM really being too likely and VM was a town read. There is little wrong with hammering a L-1 player who you have a scum read on.

how is it obvious that the order shifted? do you remember the OP by heart? O_o I went to look at the OP order to see if there's any difference, you know. if the voting order was 14526739 it wouldn't be suspicious at all, and the question that you brought up is good for this order too. that could be a neatly done trap if you know, he had the chance to respond, and if nobody else was posting. you built a nice trap, but you didn't tell all the others about it, so how could we avoid ruining it for you?

First, the OP is alphabetical, some mods do that and this one does. Noticing that his list was not and the error was easy enough. If it was completely random, I actually would have been far more interested in persuing what happened because it doesnt make sense to randomize a list for no reason.

Also its hard to both say "this is a trap" and not inform scum of the trap.

"quickhammer was bad but not horrible". tell me, what IS horrible, please? a quickhammer from a townie on a townie is literally the worst situation I can imagine on D1. once again, when I ask a question, I don't always think about what he will say. I only think AFTER he's said it. no use of speculating. the mind goes like that: see something fishy-->point it out/ask about it-***->get an answer-->respond to it. the *** is where the chain was stopped by the hammer.

In this setup quickhammer is not the worst thing to happen. We cant hit a PR, Venrob is a noticeable VI player, worst things easily could have happened.

Im a little torn on you over the second half because im CONSTANTLY thinking about why something is said from a town perspective, its when I cant come up with many solutions when I start putting pressure down because if its something I cant justify chances are higher its scum making that move. I just dont see an answer from Venrob that would have made you move you vote if you were already that convinced he was scum.

I can definitely explain why it's a scumtell. when I'm scum, I know who my partner is. so soon in the game I don't remember all the names of all the others. so if I plan to vote all as part of my soopersicrit plan of hiding the bandwagon vote within, I shall vote everybody. as a start I will vote the names I remember, aka, my scumbuddy. then I don't remember any more names - so I go to the OP and copy. it's this simple. understood?

This just isnt really plausable though to me. It *could* have happened which is why I mentioed that VM-Venrob looked like they could be scum together, but I dunno... seems streching.

if you're basing a read on a meta of just one game, drop it now.

Why is chaos null-scum? he posted literally once.

Meta is a supplement to a case, not the main part of it. I dont have much of a scum read on him and meta somewhat agrees with him not being scum.

Also Chaos posted once but it was a REALLY REALLY scummy post.

[Rainbowdash]

@MK - Bulidmar read. Go.

[Rainbowdash]

Huh...

Bulidmar is right

unvote all
Vote MK

shos still in the grey-ish area. I dont like him but im thinking part of the reason I think he is scum is inherant disagreement about theory.

[Rainbowdash]

Just waiting to see if you dig yourself in deeper when buldimar responds to you or not. There is one thing that I can see somewhat making sense, but im not about to say it before you either do such or not.

[Rainbowdash]

Oh, I don't feel too pressured to make sense since it's obviously not a requirement here

Cute brushing off of something.

[Rainbowdash]

psst... you DO realize I said that I have reasons but want to see if you dig yourself in deeper with pushing bulidmar first or not right? Like I said, im not going to lay down all my reasoning before more tells are possibly hit. Additionally - saying "bulidmar is right" doesnt mean I agree with his case, I just think you are scum.

If you want to talk hypocracy... how is you saying "I want to hear from buildmar before I vote" that much different from me saying "I want to see a response before I explain everything"?

[Rainbowdash]

@MK - If Uticon is scum for the quickhammer, why is buldimer NOT scum for suggesting that its the correct move to do?

[Rainbowdash]

@shos - Can you reexplain how your justification for the uticon wagon is any different than what should be justification for a vote on me or bulidmar?

I really really think we are dealing with one of (maybe both but I think just one) of MK-shos scum here.

[Rainbowdash]

Am I right in the assumption that shos essentially just OMGUSed the entire group calling him scum?

Either way, apart from the Emp vote he is just voting for disagreement over theory and even then is being really selective over what he is voting for. Apparently uticon hammering quickly and me saying its a very acceptable tactic is vote worthy, but buldimar saying he would do that isnt... biggest difference between the three of us I see is that me and uticon are the only ones that anypony else are calling scum.

Uticon wagon should go away though, Equinox said it best recently there.

[Rainbowdash]

disagreement on playing theory is nto a scumtell.

This is why you are scum.

You have basically said that a disagreement on theory is why you are attacking uticon, he did something that he thinks is fine, I think is fine, and bulimar thinks is fine so you got at least one town saying its a good thing.

The main difference here though is, you are only attacking those who are easy to attack. Jump hard on uticon since he just hammered, but you ignore me for the most part and bulimar because its harder to put pressure on us due to lack of general support for our wagons.

Whats even funnier here is that you are apparently using the fact that I am calling you scum for NOT trying to get me lynched a scumtell. For the love of Celestia why would I even call you on that one? I literally would be sidestepping you thinking im scum and keeping you zeroed in on others, enough such that even if I was scum I could keep you off a partner with minimal effort.

You keep acting like you have other reasons for pushing Uticon or something (which you dont) or me (which you dont). You think Uticon is scum for a theory disagreement that led him to hammer where you think its scummy. Its not massively pro-town but its not a scumtell. You think im scum because I say you are scum for only applying this tell to the one who voted but not the pool that fully agrees with his methodology. You think Emp is scum for some reason im not 100% sure of, im going to assume it has to do with calling you scum though.

Also please, you are saying you called us scum BEFORE we called you scum? Im pretty sure I called you scum way before that and circled back into what should be obvious "I think you are scum" questions before you voted me.

Equinox logic is why you should be leaving Uticon alone. She pointed something out in a recent game with me which is "When RBD calls somepony town, they are very likely to be town regardless of her alignment". Its actually a very true statement.

You are playing the pick and choose card again though with the Emp vote for "lurking-ish" play or whatever. Why vote Emp but not Chaos there? No good reason really that I can see for that call, except Emp has a few that arent really too sold on him being scum, and Emp is attacking you. Mostly you are using tells only when they directly benifit you (hammer theory, lurking) and you are scum for it.

Maybe this can better be explained with a knock knock joke though.

Knock Knock.

[Rainbowdash]

If you are going to ignore my case on you, at least answer my question of why Emp lurking makes him scum while Chaos lurking makes him just to be yelled at or something like that.

The shrugging off of my questions is enough to basically solidify any case though. Shos really hasnt explained much of his case at this point and now that im pushing hard on him is immediately taking the 'at an impass' arguement which is something that is very easy to use in situations as scum.

You are.

[Rainbowdash]

Well that wasnt quite going to be the joke but it was going to be hillarious.

Either way I want to see what type of distinctions shos is using because it really looks like he is picking who is scum and then trying to fit something to justify it.

[Rainbowdash]

Yeah... im not happy putting shos at L-1 with bulidmar not voting and discussion only coming from a limited group when we have a week to deadline. If buildmar was voting him I wouldnt have an issue putting him at L-1, but I want to see more first.

Plus the last couple posts from Emp have been kinda unsettling.

The content = town arguement from shos is hillarious beyond reason though. Seriously go read any game from good scum and theory gone.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote all

Need to figure out if shos or Emp is the play. Last few pages from Emp are really bad and he is definantly one of the more underestimated ponys, in the same camp as Furc, Corvuss, xtoxm.... the group that if you disgregard as scum will bite you.

Emp isnt playing his normal town game at all here, he normally does put a whole lot of effort in as town. Its like K7 but far more less magnified.

Course if Emp is scum shos is probably town... ugh

[Rainbowdash]

Vote Emp

He isnt doing anything productive at all and is more just spurring on wagons instead of trying to apply logic to anything. His early case against me is "Doing something pro-town" when its one of those things that I always do, and would have done even as scum, its one of those things that most dont ever believe, but I break and optimize stuff regardless of alignment. Ups win chance as town and makes things predictable as scum.

His shos vote and play around it is what pushes this over the edge though.

Shos is right, there is no logical reason for Emp to be voting shos right now if he is scum BECAUSE I am scum. My flip would make his case entirely void, and when challenged he basically backs into it being some sort of a policy-esq lynch. The other response is what cinches it though: he is voting me next no matter what the flip is. This is not even all that subtle of trying to line up a lynch, and makes me pretty sure that shos might actually be town because if thats true, Emp has an easy lynch tomorrow either way for a win.

Then there is the fact that with Buldimar running around, Emp is trying to get that L-1 vote out on shos. I just really feel like he is baiting the quickhammer here, when his own logic dictates that the shos lynch is inferior because it demands and unproven falsehood to actually work.

These are his reasons for votes so far:

Venrob - the out of order thing (still a null tell)
Dash - Gut
shos - Dash is scum

Ponyfeathers thats Emp-town play. He gets lynched now, means shos is prob-town. Last scum falls to one of MK, Chaos, VM. Game.

Thats L-1.

[Rainbowdash]

VOTE: Rainbowdash
You're not trying to find scum, you're just trying to get someone lynched.

So... im going for the easy lynch by backing off shos... who I have a case against... who I would have put at L-1... with bulidmar calling him scum and not voting... who said he would hammer anypony at L-1 who was a scumread...

yeah...

Maybe im just not good at this whole "just trying to get somepony lynched" thing or something. I dunno.

Also if I get lynched, pool for tomorrow is Emp, MK, Chaos. If a vote from one of those three goes anywhere else they are automatically the lynch. Uticon is prob town, shos is shortsighted town but probably town, worst worst case VM-buldimar are not scum together... those three. I would vote Emp and make him choose between MK and Chaos personally. He either will go for the bus or put us in a 1v1.

Also if Emp IS scum, just lynch MK and Chaos. Really easy win there. Rest of the game is near instant-confirmed town

Shos is town outside of Chaos-scum probably.

[Rainbowdash]

You are being way more placid than the time you were town when I played with you

One game is not a meta. I'm always at one of the "extremes", that's just my Emp-meta.

No you actually are a lot like the inverse of K7... not that I think anypony but maybe Chaos will know what im talking about here due to age... but is a difference that trends a bit. You are more into games when you are town because you probably like being town a whole lot more, this one you are more coasting and just lobbing up arguements. Im not sure you have even called me scum for anything but "gut" so far really.

flipping a 180 and buddying me is not getting you any comfort from me.

Time to get the sarcasam out again....

Yeah... thats why I called you town... but more of a loose cannon and liability type town... because we all know being vaugely insulting is the best way to buddy....

Ugh.

Just really: Emp, MK, Chaos. Thats the scumpool. 100% you have one in there, more than 50-50 you have both.

[Rainbowdash]

this one you are more coasting and just lobbing up arguements. Im not sure you have even called me scum for anything but "gut" so far really.

Yeah, that's just a complete lie in the hope that people will just take your word for it.

I would love to see where your case passes "gut" or "did something pro-town". I havent found it.

[Rainbowdash]

As I said there, voting him likely ment that bulidmar hammered while there was still discussion to be had. Im not going to put him at L-1 which essentially hammers when I want to still do some other stuff.

Plus you were already voting me there... so that means you had no reason for a vote before that point?

[Rainbowdash]

Gut is the greatest reason of all.

Wasnt it "not just gut" a couple of seconds ago?

[Rainbowdash]

Okay, so lets try it this way then:

Whats my scum motivation for deciding to back off of the shos vote, which essentially would have been a hammer to persue different wagons?

Am I right then your case went from gut pre-post 250, to NOT getting somepony lynched who I had been going back and forth on. Let me guess though! Thats a scumtell because shos is scum, who is only scum because I am scum?

[Rainbowdash]

Okayyyy...

1. You dont save lynches by calling them town. That normally just makes them a lynch you cant touch without some backlash or major slip up.
2. Circular reasoning... null point... etc
3. I thought shos was scum? Now im scum because he is town?

Really your two and three points are "because you are scum" and nothing more. The first one is something that I really cant be doing by calling him town, going elsewhere yeah that works, trying to stop a lynch more... thats not something that is easily rescendable.

Look at my last scum game. How I treat Robo is a way of stopping a lynch that means I cant get back on the wagon. How I treat Riss/Equinox is exactly how you keep a lynch for later, just stall on it and go elsewhere. Calling them town is just going to get you into trouble when you need to have them lynched. Deflect, start counter wagons, ignore... all ways to get back on. Defend and its almost impossible especially if you have taken flack before in the game.

[Rainbowdash]

What town reason did you have to not vote; were you afraid that scum would be hammered?

Yes.

I have said that a few times.

I thought shos was scum, but did not want him lynched so was not going to put him at L-1 right there because I would rather more stuff happen then the hammer drop. As has been proven in this game, its not always possible to simply trust nothing derpy happens, so im not going to open the door for something I dislike. Talking is good, and you are trying to force it so im scum no matter what shos is for not essentally hammering him.

It doesnt matter how many times you ask that, its still going to be my answer.

[Rainbowdash]

Well next prod (any second) Chaos should just be replaced.

Still, I get lynched pool for tomorrow stands as Emp, Chaos, MK. If any of those three vote outside of the pool you instantly lynch them.

Look at Emp trying to suggest anypony NOT voting me is scum at this point. He is scum, almost for sure. This is basically scumplay 101, when trying to get a mislynch start taking stances that give you the ability to put heavy pressure on those who are not listening to you.

I didnt vote because I wanted additional discussion before a lynch happened. Day one we got nothing, if we were wrong again we still had almost nothing as quite a few are really quiet at that point (Chaos, Emp, uticon) so im not about to end the day like that. Even is shos was scum its not like we were in an enviable position given the lack of input over that wagon from quite a few. I didnt put him at L-1 then and I wouldnt put him at L-1 if I could go back and do it again because regardless of his alignment its tactically the wrong play.

Really what... he is scum and bulidmar and uticon are town reads... and thats about it. We are left with a pile of null on most of the game. Furthering data and eventually ending up with the ability to see what more think of a wagon enables us to learn more about motivations and alignments of others. Most games quicklynching is bad, this one its still not great, acceptable but not great. I just dont want it happening unless im happy with the game going to night.

[Rainbowdash]

You did not want to put shos in L-1 because buldermar - who hadn't really shown indications towards going after shos - could quickhammer him. Nevertheless, you put (or actually you didn't but you thought you did) Emp in L-1 (#272) with uctriton00 - who has already proved himself to be a loose cannon and who just expressed suspicion towards Emp - not voting. This just doesn't add up and yes, it does feel like you were hoping for uctriton00 to hammer.

Yeah thats what I did. That is scummy because.... why exactly? Are you calling shos scum now because thats about the only way I can see you even trying to argue that type of a thing. I did not want a lynch of shos when I made that post. I was fine with a lynch of Emp, and still am, when I made the other post.

Also, what was the case you had against me earlier that you didn't want to share?

Very similar to what I was calling shos scum for. You jumped hard on uticon while ignoring others saying that what he did was fine and acceptable. Its apparently like what you are calling me scum for, inconsistancy between two different things, except I have actually said why its scummy while you stick to "because it is" and apparently do not think shos is scum which seems to be necessary for the case to apply.

Again, I get lynched - Emp, MK, Chaos is the pool for tomorrow. Preferably Emp and MK. Shos is just town not to be trusted really to be helpful, Uticon is probably town, VM and bulidmar are town enough to be ignored for tomorrow but look at them again if they get to a F3.

Will be interested to know where Emp is now since last few pages mean if he still thinks shos-me are a team he is confirmed scum or stubborn beyond reason

[Rainbowdash]

Will be interested to know where Emp is now since last few pages mean if he still thinks shos-me are a team he is confirmed scum or stubborn beyond reason

No, I don't.

So now there is absolutely no way shos is scum?

[Rainbowdash]

Like I said, if you lynch me force MK and Emp to crossvote tomorrow. If they vote elsewhere they get lynched. Period.

Emp is not this bad of a player, MK if anypony is the one who is trying hard to get a lynch that he has no reasoning for. Shos should be ignored because he is derpy but might be town, his reason for thinking im scum may be worse than MKs though actually since... thats not buddying. At all. Buddying is treating somepony in a way to make them think you are town. If I call you a derp but town, thats not really me trying to be nice to you.

Unvote all
Vote MK

Im actually siding back here a little more.

If you lynch anypony outside of the three I said game is over 100% because really the ONLY way its not at least one of the trio is a shos-bulidmar pair and I dont think thats it. VM is freaking obv-town and will eat the NK because they are right about stuff. Just make MK and Emp crossvote, at least one is scum - probably both when you realize how much MK suddenly solidified his read on me about the time I started pushing and getting support for an Emp lynch.

Reason for my votes:
Emp - Gut + put me at L-1 but not shos
shos - Changed read from scum to town on me
MK - Trying to get anypony lynched (somehow that really conflicts with refusing to put shos at L-1 and instead starting a new wagon)
Bulidmar - ????

MK wagon or me. VM, DMS and uticon get to call it.

[Rainbowdash]

Bulidmar - ????

Sheeping post 330.

So...

This is where you (and MK) seem to be lacking... reason. You say I apparently was trying to get shos NOT lynched, which would mean he is scum, which is why he is attacking me when its obvious that if I was scum and got lynched there is no way he could win the game. Unless you are arguing that shos is town, which defeats everything in 330 which basically says that im trying to get anyone lynched, by not puttnig somepony at L-1 who would be hammered by yourself.

So im either scum cross bussing a partner who a few think we are scum together OR I am scum who is "just trying to get a lynch" by keeping somepony who would have been hammered off L-1. Both arguements fall flat.

[Rainbowdash]

I think you were trying to gain town cred by pretending to be trying to not get shos lynched. I have a strong town read on shos.

Nope. Creates too many town reads I cant let go of as scum. I already wouldnt be able to touch uticon at all, have a hard time going near you and VM. Shutting down a fourth wagon leaves me just three to pick from and limits movement a whole lot. If you are going to limit yourself as scum the win needs to be obvious (see SCIENCE game) or you are going to need to be dead on with predicting how reads of critical components progress, even then risking quite a bit.

Way too risky to shut down shos, if it becomes a concensus read (which when im primary pusher in split scenario it easily could be) thats bad play. Just let him get lynched and instead make moves to setup an adventageous endgame.

I would vote Emp over myself (obv) but MK is making the worst moves right now to me, especially calling me "trying to just get a lynch" after passing up two really easy lynches. Its more of a disguised OMGUS that reformed when I attacked Emp (why they are my favorite pair).

[Rainbowdash]

exactly the same case that makes me look the worst. Yet somehow magically it doesn't make him look scummy. How does this make any sense? If my case is so bad, surely it would make buldermar seem scummy as well. If buldermar is town but still sheeps my case, surely there has to be some sense in it?

Hey shos... so MK is scum now right?

Also yeah, if you realize there is a reason I have both uticon and VM as more town than bulidmar. I think he is town, but less so than my town town reads.

Really im not sure why MK isnt dead. He literally just responded to an attack with "buldimar did it too" as a defense.

@shos - You vote me because of "lol buddying"... so if you arent going to actually elaborate im assuming that is your case.

[Rainbowdash]

I'm feeling better about my vote now. Rainbowdash continues to be too incoherent for her own abilities. You see how logically she's analyzing the game and moves in it but she doesn't play in a logical way.

Also explain this. You cant say this without admitting to me having a point about something. Given the last few pages, what do I have a point about? Are you scum, is Emp scum, or am I town? The logic is apparently there by your own admission, and any of those three cases mean im town so... im town by your own logic and you continue to vote me.

[Rainbowdash]

Logically speaking, it works. I don't agree with the claim (for example, I don't think you're unable to touch "uticon" if he does something stupid again and your recent post was already toning down your town read on buldermar) but the logic still works. And no, that doesn't make you town in any way.

So my logic of me being town you agree with, so im not town?

What?

You literally are saying "This reasoning for you being town makes sense - you are scum".

And a good example of purposely not applying logic is your response to the buldermar comment of mine. Stating that you lack logic because you apply different rules on me than you do on buldermar is perfectly valid here and it most certainly is not scummy. Let's go over it one more time.

You think:
I am scum because my case is so poor that I have to be scum
buldermar is town even though he agrees with my poor case

One would think that buldermar - who you consider town - agreeing to the case would at least

make you realize that the case cannot be so bad that it's scummy

. It's simply not possible. If you don't understand my case or don't agree with it, it would be another matter but if a townie agrees with my case, it's already evidence enough that the case makes sense, even if it doesn't make sense to you.

First, im actually exceedingly curious as to why shos hasnt called you scum for this.

@shos

- You said I was scum for grouping the ones who said quichammer was good. Why is MK not scum for DEFENDING himself by grouping himself with buld?

Anyway. I think he is less town for agreeing with the case and to use your scumtell (which you are not calling him scum for?) is "trying to get a lynch". Do I have him as a top scum read? No. Do I have him as a top town read? No. The fact that your entire defense is actually "you should be calling him scum too" is almost more of a tell than him actually doing that. I have MANY times defended partners with that type of case because it works wonders for shutting down a push by throwing somepony else in the mix. They usually will start siding with you, it makes the point look more vauge and weaker. Scumplay 101.

Now, instead of acknowledging this in any way, you decided to take the less logical approach again and tried to brush it under the carpet by saying "Really im not sure why MK isnt dead. He literally just responded to an attack with "buldimar did it too" as a defense." This is pure appeal to emotion (which I don't consider a scum tell in every case but considering the importance of the observation, I certainly do here) without even an attempt to reason.

No.... thats not AtE. Thats calling you scum for a specific reason not attached to emotion. You want AtE? Here

Spoiler:

Im really not scum guys...

I dont know why you are picking on me because the case is all ponyfeathers, but trust me im really tonw

Thats AtE, im not a filly so am not resorting to that type of stuff. Trying to pass of an attack as AtE though is another point against you since its discrediting an attack without responding to it. Again you are just walking through my checklist of "how to play scum" almost.

You probably realized it yourself, there is no way to justify your case against me so your only hope was to just sweep it away which, considering the deadline closing in, could have (or maybe even still could if you keep on postponing) even worked.

Okay. Eat this:

1) MK opens up a day with the attack on Uticon. He never makes any distinction as to why Uticon is scum for the hammer but why myself and bulder are not scum for supporting him in that fact.
2) While calling bulidmars case on him bad to scummy, he votes me for also voting him and thinking I agreed with the case. In the same post, MK says "we can lynch Uticon later" leaving doors open on that slot with two different ways to backtrack on him in a single paragraph.
3) When I move votes from shos to Emp, he calls me scum for "Trying to get anypony lynched" which is never explained how, especially since my vote on EITHER put them at the same number of votes. He thought I put Emp at L-1 (incorrect) so the point is null but still used? It STILL has not been explained how moving my vote from a wagon that had support to hit L-1 and possibly a lynch to one that had no additinal backing is trying to get a lynch. If I was scum and shos-Emp are town you follow something like
-Note that shos is somewhat correct over points on Emp
-Vote shos in the big post
-Get shos lynched
-Kill ???
-Try and get Emp lynched in lylo
What I did would just be bad scum play. There is a reason im really really good as scum most of the time, I know how to setup stuff for late in a game.
4) I am logical in everything but my reason to vote MK is what his new case is. MK agrees with my logic that makes me town, yet refuses to unvote me for it. At this point even if they are town they seem to know they are wrong but refuse to move their vote.
5) When I call him out on stuff, he first calls me illogical and now says that it cant be much of a tell because bulidmar did it too or something like that.

MK is scum, Emp is a distant second.

If I get lynched force them to crossvote tomorrow. No way both are town. Im thinking its one of

MK-Emp
MK-DMS
Emp-Buld

If you get a scumflip from one, the other gets snap lynched because they look like a matchmade in heaven partnership. Especially when MK starts really not liking me right when I call Emp scum

@DMS - You are voting me or MK. No pony else.

[Rainbowdash]

As wierd as it is... no lynch today is far from bad. We dont lose any lynches given the mech. Its not optimal, but it actually doesnt do that much damage since we still have two more mislynches, just at 5-2 and 4-2 instead of 6-2 and 4-2.

unvote all
Vote Emp

I think MK might actually be town stuck in self-preservation mode who refuses to admit (or is unable to realize) they are in it. If Emp is scum he still is on the "to die" list for sure - but there is a distinct lack of partners for him and this just sounds enough like town who refuses to take a step back to make Emp the better vote.

DMS "im lost" post bugs me. I do love me an "incompetence" tell, but this game is very obviously different by the title, the fact that it says "day 1b" the fact that my PM says that we have multiple votes... I just dont think he randomly replaced into a game.

Remember - tomorrows pool if I die is Emp, MK, DMS.

If its Emp... shos gets town points and VM gets town points... would say yes on uticon still too so the "make dead" pool would be MK/DMS/bulid. That should be your win.

No lynch is fine, we lose no lynches and make scum make the first move making the actual lylo if we mislynch far more unpredictable for them. Granted a lynch of a scumread is better, but if somehow anypony got uticon to L-1 or something I wouldnt hammer.

[Rainbowdash]

Yeah counted wrong. No lynch is bad, end on same phase (end of 2b) if we no lynch or not, we just get one extra if we lynch all the way.

I will self-hammer if it gets to it tonight (~10 hours), but if I do you ARE lynching Emp no questions asked first phase tomorrow. This is 100% non-negotiable. He is scum and he is going to be lynched there. If he flips scum MK becomes the 2b lynch no questions asked. If Emp is town check the NK but I still would like a MK-DMS crossvote since unless its two of VM/Build/shos/uticon (well one is eating the NK either way) then its still keeping us in the game.

I would love to see Emp go today, again he is now calling anypony DEFENDING me scum (he even essentially calls VM scum regardless of my flip), but if I have to self hammer you lynch him in four posts tomorrow. If you want to humor him and give him a post to say reads go ahead, but he gets lynched. End of story.

[Rainbowdash]

I will self-hammer if it gets to it tonight (~10 hours)

HERE WE GO

I have no idea how to deal with these kinds of sacrifices

Really easy.

You lynch Emp tomorrow. If im scum and dont do it... I get lynched tomorrow so it should show im town, but I realize you can call that WIFOM. Ideally we just lynch Emp today, but I realize that it isnt going to happen so you just get to kill him really fast tomorrow.

[Rainbowdash]

(DASHIE, PLEASE DON'T HOLD THIS AGAINST ME! THIS IS IN NO WAY REVENGE FOR THAT SCIENCE OPEN, I SWEAR!)

Actually if you look at early on dead QT, I was trying to get you NKed because I was really unsure of you being town but keeping you alive was a benifit to me. All I knew were shos/uticon were town for those reads but had to take the risk on you being town too or no hope at all.

uticon dying N1 was a big red flag that some scum had to like their position, he was town for sure to me... but it was a useless slot and there were a few active prob-towns that would be important to first get rid of.

Still stand by my rule 8 arugement, and the fact that Chaos not being replaced for two weeks of prod-dodging was a major mod semi-helping scum situation