The Dresden Files - Early Days Mafia (Bastard) - Over

[Zdenek]

Easy mode on.

Vote: ICEninja

[Zdenek]

Hi ICENinja scumbuddy

Yep.

[Zdenek]

Well, Jason's scum too - chastizing a player on page two for not doing enough.

[Zdenek]

Jason's attack on Klick looks incredibly contrived because it came after Kondi explained his reads, which came across as a reasonable post and I think that if that didn't convince Jason that Klick is probably town, then his outburst wouldn't have either, so votes there are great.

CKD's unvote seems unnatural. It was on Shamrock who was in no danger of being lynched, and he didn't move his vote anywhere.

[Zdenek]

obviously I was a little more effected by the alcohol than I thought...I felt like the vote should be removed. didnt like the vote…I think my frame of mine last night was to vote Jason…but…ehhh

that being said, "unnatural" compared to what? to other players? to you? to my meta? did you check any other games to see if I have ever done this before as town? a scum? or are you just throwing it out there for shits and giggles? why do you care if I move my meaningless random vote or not... why did you comment on that versus people who are currently voting no one?

Why are you using alcohol as an excuse, acting as though you intended to do something differently (vote Jason), and then following that up with a discussion of what I was thinking when I said unnatural? It seems to me that you already understand perfectly well that your unvote was unnatural.

Anyway, to answer your questions, I mean unnatural compared to how most people play most of the time. When was the last time that you did this, were you scum or town? I care because I don't understand the mindset behind your un-vote. As far as people not voting go, at the moment, in the early stages of the game, that doesn't bother me.

[Zdenek]

Also, I don't really see how this post fits with your voting Jason frame of mind.

Yet you vote Ice for nothing putting him to L-1 on page 2.

agreeing with him is not answering what he is asking here.

pretty sure he is asking how is it any different.

[Zdenek]

Well, CKD since you asked if I'd checked you unvoting and not revoting against your meta, I thought I'd ask to see if you knew what your meta regarding this was.

Looking over your meta, I see you doing this in

Into Africa where you were scum, but it's at post 212.
Open 258 where you were scum (this also answers you question about whether I've seen scum doing this, yes, you, in that game).

You've done it in some games as town, but you seem to revote almost immediately (ie NY 141), unless you are behind in the thread (ie Open 250). You also do it as either alignment late in the day.

I stopped reviewing back games with Mafia on Holy Orders and I did a search of your games for roflcopter, but I couldn't find the one you were talking about.

So considering this meta, it certainly doesn't point to you being town and maybe slightly to scum.

[Zdenek]

Let's see:
Schmugen's sassy comments to GreyICE are rubbing me the wrong way.

Pidgey's questioning of ICEninja, but not actually commenting about what he thinks of him is bad.

ICEninja's posting really makes me want him dead especially his over-reaction to two votes being on him and his soft-attack on GreyICE.

I will not be unvoting Konowa until he responds, as I have a legitimate line of reasoning for that vote.

What was your reasoning?

[Zdenek]

What was your line of reasoning for your Konowa vote?

[Zdenek]

Oh, I see, because there wasn't a shred of evidence to indicate that it was serious.

For the record, my vote was not random.

[Zdenek]

I don't have time to address everything now:

EDIT, you have already referenced this game...

I don't think I did.

Do I need to keep going..that is now 3 games where I have done it

That's fine.

Zden, how far did you go back, I am curious?

I stopped reviewing back games with Mafia on Holy Orders

I used user -> view their topics.

[Zdenek]

it was game 250, you did reference it.

The link goes to Mad World Mafia.

[Zdenek]

I have been in over 70 fucking games…so if it is really something you think you should vote me over…go ahead.

I was pretty clear about how I felt about this:

So considering this meta, it certainly doesn't point to you being town and maybe slightly to scum.

I'm not voting you and maybe slightly to scum wouldn't have been enough on it's own to make me want to vote you.

On top of that you've given more games where this has happened and you've been town. To be honest, they are quite old, so I am not how reasonable it is to appeal to them.

At the moment, it seems like it's irrelevant.

what is scum’s motivation for unvoting and not revoting?

I don't think that there is scum motivation for voting and unvoting, but I find that actions that I don't understand or dont't see a clear motivation for tend to come from scum more often than town, which was my issue in the first place. As far as doing the research goes, meta can sometimes be a useful way to read people, so I went and looked at your past games.

take a look (or relook) on the games where scum attacked me for not revoting after an unvote….in my shoes what reaction should I have to this?

In my experience there are no scummy reasons for voting people. I have seen both town and scum use let's say remarkably unique reasons for voting people and I have also seen them both use boiler plate scum tells (especially early in the game). For the most part what people say they find scummy as scum are the same as the things that they actually find scummy when they are town. So I'd say that the "scum jump on unvoting" tell that you are suggesting exists probably doesn't. The reality is that alignment is reflected more in the nature of the attack (for instance, Tasky pushing you incredibly hard for really flimsy reasoning in Mad World Mafia).

Because if you look at ALL the other votes, they're clearly either RVS (in Zdenek's case),

Does this comment make sense from someone with two votes on them who thinks that one one of them is random?

Oh I see how it is, the person who makes the most intelligent post thus far gets the votes. You worried, scum, that I might be paying a little extra attention, and want to get rid of me right off the bat?

Nopity nope. Lynchity lynch.

Alright, so after re-reading with ICEninja's failure to recognize votes on him as serious I'm more null on him.

Of course he recognized it. Did you miss the above post? Why are you taking his word for it?

[Zdenek]

Jason is obviously not for lynching any time soon.

[Zdenek]

Does this comment make sense from someone with two votes on them who thinks that one one of them is random?

I was expecting a "dude I'm random voting you" response, not a "let's lynch this guy" response.

So you intentionally over reacted to the two votes on you to provoke us to say that our vote were random? Why?

If not, then what?

[Zdenek]

Gaoler is pretty easily confirmed

Huh? Am I missing something?

Oh and to respond to Zdenek's 197, they were page 1 votes that seemed like they meant nothing. I called you and Konowa out on them to see how you'd respond and try to develop some reads.

More than anything I just wanted to see why Konowa voted me, and his lack of response to that lead to my suspicions of him.

You did not call me out on mine. You over reacted to two votes on you, you think that is "calling out".

And I'm pretty sure I have never seen anyone react to someone overreacting to the votes on them by saying "oh no, that was random, relax," but what do I know.

This reponse of ICEninja make almost no sense to me in the context of our discussion. It reads like scum trying to reinterpret history. I still want him dead.

[Zdenek]

So your vote on me gets to count as scum hunting, and my comment in response doesn't?

I'm not measuring things about whether they count as scum hunting or not. To me, this:

Oh I see how it is, the person who makes the most intelligent post thus far gets the votes. You worried, scum, that I might be paying a little extra attention, and want to get rid of me right off the bat?

Looks like a bizarre over reaction to a few votes. You clearly disagree.

how any of it plays to a scum win condition

This is such a fucking crazy WIFOM argument, I don't even know what to say.

Please explain how I'm trying to rewrite history.

I don't see that post of yours, the over-reaction to two votes, as you calling anyone out, and I think you saying that is what you were doing is false.

Actually, this is something I should have asked on page 1. Who here is familiar with the first 3 books, who here is familiar with the entire series, and who here is playing without much/any knowledge of the series? This will become fairly important.

I have very limited knowledge of the series.

Greenkight, look at ICEninja's join date, and then vote him.

Where sixty's got their town read on ICEninja from, I'll never know.

CKD is great bet for ICEninja scum buddy.

V/LA until Monday/Tuesday

[Zdenek]

I don't have time to actually think about things at the moment, but
1. Jason is more town because scum probably doesn't risk fucking up their claim like that. Sure it's not 100%, but it's solid.
2. The "slip" case on GreyICE is fucking stupid, and this is coming from someone who generally speaking likes slip-cases. The GreyICE-is-backtracking-from-thinking-there-is-day-talk case or whatever that case is is even stupider. I think GreyICE was making an obnoxious accusation, and that's all.
3.

A quick search shows that Iceninja has played in one 17 player game and one theme game that was abandoned on day 2 and the rest seem to be 13p- mini normals or newbie games, so this statement seems reasonable.

Did you expect to discover that he was lying about this? Do you think this has anything to do with his alignment?
4. ICEninja's claim that he's out of his element is basically him playing the join date 2009 newbie card.
5. Kimor ignoring the wagons is an issue.

[Zdenek]

Posting.

I wanted to get to this tonight, but I have to sleep. I'll be here tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Sixty, what games are you using for your GreyICE meta and can you explain why ICEninja is town of his depth?

[Zdenek]

Also, Kimor's ISO is as scummy as they come.

[Zdenek]

Your paragraph on meta is cute, but it's soft (and I disagree with idea that meta doesn't have to do with finding and analyzing examples of people's play) and your comment about town rooted meta work is nonsense. On top of that the fact that you then turn around and offer up Dr. Who Mafia as example just makes me think you were making stuff up that you don't really believe.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: This is a strange defence of GreyIce and a even stranger attack on Sixty. Let Grey fight his own battles. I am 100% sure that he can.
Actually am I reading you right, that you believe Sixty is scum?

Zdenek wrote:
Your paragraph on meta is cute, but it's soft (and I disagree with idea that meta doesn't have to do with finding and analyzing examples of people's play) and your comment about town rooted meta work is nonsense. On top of that the fact that you then turn around and offer up Dr. Who Mafia as example just makes me think you were making stuff up that you don't really believe.

Sounds like a scumread without really saying it.

StephanB is the new obv. scum.

1. I was not defending GreyICE, so that accusation is bullshit. I was directly referencing Sixty's response to me asking them where they are getting their meta on GreyICE.

2. Stephan's post is a defense of Sixty. His comment "Actually am I reading you right, that you believe Sixty is scum?" make it seem as though he thinks that the idea of someone thinking sixty is scum is unlikely. I regard this as him sucking up them, and it's an issue because he did not have a town read on the slot.

A simple not should make this more clear.

I am suspicious of our puppy, because I should

not

have this as null, imposible to read , but as townie-town (even if they are scum)

Sorry for the typo.
But nice post.
It means that I wanted to read you as obvious town, but read you as null.
That was not what I exspected you to be in the game.
Sorry not obvious town at the moment and I would be suprised if most of the game doesn't have you as null at the moment, Sixty. (With ABR)

Unvote
Vote StephanB

but to answer his questions, what I think is that Tierce was lecturing me, and don't think that's an alignment tell for her, but it irritates me and I think she's wrong.

[Zdenek]

Oh, the puppy is right, let them post a bit and you get around seeing them as townie.

Why?

Zdenek: I don't want to start paranoia and see you and GreyIce as scumpartners, but how is somethink looking like a chainsaw not a defence?

First of all, that scum-tell is probably bullshit. What makes you think that is anymore likely to be chainsaw defense, than any of the other attacks in this game?

So Stefan, how do you reconcile the fact that you think that town doesn't say things that they don't believe and the fact that Sixty lectured me about townie meta work, how scum love to do meta work and point to examples and then followed that up by going and pointing at an example with your town read on Sixty?

The GreyICE backtracking case is stupid. GreyICE was being obnoxious (not alignment relevant). Sixty's raised some points against him, but as far as I am concerned their case (together with my experience with GreyICE) amounts to a case that should only imply that they read him as null. The points that Shamrock has raised seem good on the surface, but I don't actually think that they are a fair representation of GreyICE's play. As far as the rest of his play goes, his early reactions to CKD and Jason seem legit. Although his shift from being worried about Jason to saying that the counter wagon on him could not be scummier is weird. The bulk of the attacks on him are bad. Specifically the ones where people misquote him and then acccuse him of lying. I also think that CKD's attacks on him for lying are exaggerated.

I think people should go read Stefan.

[Zdenek]

The points that Shamrock has raised seem good on the surface, but I don't actually think that they are a fair representation of GreyICE's play.

Hmm, why not?

It looks to me like GreyICE does care who gets lynched.

[Zdenek]

Sixty's raised some points against him, but as far as I am concerned their case (together with my experience with GreyICE) amounts to a case that should only imply that they read him as null.

Question 1: What

would

you find to be a scumtell for GreyICE, if not his rather transparent attempt to mimic his "Town meta"?
Question 2: Why did you word this like

we should be reading GreyICE as null

, not that

you believe GreyICE is null based on our points

?

It looks to me like GreyICE does care who gets lynched.

Question 3: If he cared that much, don't you think he'd be jumping on ckd a lot sooner than he did, rather than as a "compromise"?

1. The same things that I think are scum tells for anyone else. I don't believe that I have seen GreyICE as scum, so I don't have any meta on him as scum.
2. Because that is what I think.
3. He jumped on CKD in his third post of the game.

My experience with GreyICE is that he can be obnoxious and push lynches like this as town. Nothing that you have said makes me think that this is not the case. This point that he is transparently trying to mimic his town meta is nice. So back it up. If it's so transparent, it should be easy.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: Why do I think that this was more worthy of calling this a chainsaw then other thinks in the game.
Well it is more worthy of calling out, because I did notice it. What is the point?

Because it's weird that you would suspect me of chainsaw defending someone, by attacking someone else over something that you consider to be a scum tell.

I will have to decline to answer that, because well what do you want to know? Sorry I don't understand the question.

1. You think that town doesn't say things that they don't mean.
2. Sixty explained that they think that scum likes to use meta in the manner where they point to specific examples to draw conclusions.
3, They then proceeded to point to an example of GreyICE's town play to argue that he is scum here.
4. You have a town read on them.
Explain how that makes sense.

Zdenek would be best off reading our posts, using the isolation feature if necessary.

I have. You basically have a meta case on GreyICE that I disagree with.

I actually agree with Zdenek that Jason looks scummy.

@Sixty - do you have examples supporting your take on GreyICE's meta here? That feels like such a home run tell I'm almost of a mind to disregard it because it feels too solid, y'know?

This point that he is transparently trying to mimic his town meta is nice. So back it up.

Zdenek, Jason, and Klick are my immediate callouts for failing at life.

So Kimor was probably scum and Thor's attempt to discredit me here, in the light of the things that he said, further confirms this slot as scum.

Considering the wagon on GreyICE there is literally no chance I would vote there. Thor is better, two players in the same slot, both scummy, is more solid than anything else so far.

Unvote
Vote Thor

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, Jason, and Klick are my immediate callouts for failing at life.

[Zdenek]

Yep - please tell me what you all had in common.

Take a while, it's a deep question.

Do you think that Stefan is town?

[Zdenek]

I have no read on him at all, and that is meaningless to the point even if I did.

So you're criticizing my vote on someone who you don't have a read on?

@Anyone voting CKD - he looks town, what is this gak?

And then follow that up by attacking the other leading wagon.

That make literally no sense.

Next Zdenek

Lining up lynches?

We're lynching Thor today. Vote him.

[Zdenek]

We're not lynching GreyICE, Stefan, so there is no reason for him to claim. Asking for that fucked up, especially since the GreyICE wagon grew up following the Kimor wagon.

[Zdenek]

...is fucked up...

[Zdenek]

If grey does not roleclaim by the end of today irl we should lynch grey over thor, period.

Why?

[Zdenek]

GreyICE case is not really good (admiteddly, i should reread this slot) and the wagon is weird and i dont like the reasoning behind it.

[Zdenek]

You don't think that the case on GreyCIE is good, you think that the wagon is weird, we have conf. scum in Thor, but if GreyIC doesn't claim we should lynch him? I don't see how that can possibly make sense.

[Zdenek]

Why not?

Because you are attacking votes on small wagons on people who you don't have reads on, and you also don't approve of votes on one of the leading wagons. If you wanted people to consolidate their votes, you should be happier with the leading wagons and if you're not happy with the leading wagons, you should be fine with people looking elsewhere.

So you're saying you totally believe Klick's claim of being a Daycop + other stuff?
Tell me why?

I think your slot is scum, and his investigation validates that read.

Why should I follow you on Thor? Because I believe you are scum and therefore sheep you or because of Klicks claim, which I believe is fake?
Sorry to ask a scumread to sheep you, while knowing that the person believes you are scum, that is okay incredible or just completly insane.

First of all, your case on me is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. It frankly seems to me like you think I am scum for pointing out something that you think is scummy, which is laughable. Then, you ignore the fact that Sixty did the thing that you find scummy, by quoting just a single line of the post where they do it. I wouldn't care so much if you where arguing that in this case, for some reason, you don't think that it's a scum tell, but what you are doing is arguing that I am scum, for thinking that it's scummy, which is bizarre.

Secondly, you were voting Kimor, at some point he gave you the worst vibes of anyone. You have never said that you think that Thor is town, now there's a daycop saying that Thor is scum, and you are convinced that it is a lie, and unwilling to vote there.

That really makes no sense, and basically confirms you as scum. Either as scum who was happy to bus Kimor, but unwilling to bus Thor or as scum, who is not scum with Thor.

[Zdenek]

Day one lynches are crapshoots to begin with and we've got a guilty on Thor. Frankly, I don't care if the game is bastard, lynching Thor is by far the best play that we have.

Next, the GreyICE wagon was somewhat a counter-wagon to Kimor/Thor. A Thor scum-flip means that GreyICE is less likely to be scum. Similarly, guilty on Thor means that GreyICE is less likely to be scum. GreyICE is a straight-up shitty lynch today. Of course, the value of this argument goes down if it's multi-scum.

This Seer argument from CKD is one of the worst in the thread, and the fact that he is trying to use it to discredit Klick, makes me want him dead, but that's for later.

This is an point that's worth keeping in mind:

(Hint for you non-themers, the big bad villain of the second book was an FBI agent who had a belt who turned him into a werewolf. Day cop, night kill?)

It fits really nicely, and well including a role with that flavor might be irresistible. I mean, I still think that Klick is town, but if this multiscum, Klick certainly wouldn't be cleared by Thor scum flip. I generally find the flavor arguments to be weak, but that is just *so cute*.

The GreyICE flip will produce more information in terms of who voted where and why.

So, why not just flip Thor and look at wagons on GreyICE and Kimor/Thor? Sure, it's more meaningful if they are both flipped, but with a guilty on Thor, there's a rsonable chance that we'll be looking at at GreyICE town-flip and a Thor scum-flip.

Huh, sorry I have heared that Klick likes to gamble.

Unvote

Vote: Thor

Sorry Klick, I should perhaps taken you serious from the beginning.

Where did you hear that Klick/Kondi likes to gamble?
What changed your mind?

I have a killing ability as well. Thor will die tonight.

Holy fuck. Considering the possible scum-roles in the game, I'd be shocked if your kill went through. We should still be lynching Thor.

Ugh. After thinking it over, I'm taking back my town read on Klick. His having a night kill just doesn't mesh well with me. I'm almost thinking third party.

unvote;

How is that relevant to the truth of his claim?

[Zdenek]

First of all, ABR's switch to town read on Thor looks bad.

You are all lynching me (I'll presume for 'info') off a claimed Cop/Vig's comment.
You apparently don't trust the kill portion of the claim.
You haven't said 'boo' to him about applicable other targets (hint: Grey should be one)
Besides Konowa (sort of) you haven't tried to force me to offer reads on anyone, which if I'm town is valuable,a nd if I'm scum is more valuable.

Nope. Scum read on Kimor, scum read on you. Plus cop guilty on you.

Klick gets to shoot who he wants. I'm not instructing him Who he picks will make it easier to read him, hopefully.

I don't care about your wifom reads. If you're town, you should be happy to give them.

Sixty's stance on the GreyICE/Thor wagons is driving me crazy. Their case on GreyICE is incredibly mediocre, but they are pushing it like nobody's business, and they're read on Thor is vague; although they seem fine with him being nightkilled.

Sixty: Read on the Kimor/Thor slot, please.

You would

also

benefit from reading our posts in isolation.

What the fuck is this? Post number where you give a clear read on the slot? Well they finally give a read on Thor as not a scum read.

ICninja. RE. 767. ARE YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO ANYTHING ABOUT MOI AND ROLE-CHARACTER ASSIGNMENTS, IN NON-BASTARD GAMES? WE SHOULD EXPECT IT TO BE WORSE HERE.

There's a chance that he's not who he says he is, but that's it, and it's a really shitty reason to not lynch Thor at this point.

The way people are trying to line up lynches based on Grey's flip and their refusal to make the solid play and vote for Thor is pure madness.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek - maybe you should tell everyone why Kimor was scum regardless of the investigation on me, that would help your case, yeah?

That would be his ISO.

[Zdenek]

Kimor:

Main issue in the early game was his unwarranted defense of Klick, and failing to comment on the lead wagons.

Then's there's nice sounding fluff, he makes a lot of excuses for not noticing the wagons and defending Klick over nothing.

He eventually gives a list of 5 people who he is somewhat concerned with, which is incredibly wishy-washy. He defends ICEninja without giving a read on him.

He vote's Kortul for making a lame case on Jason, who he is concerned with. Considering that what Jason was being voted for was obvious, voting Kortul for not mentioning that is a massive stretch.

In the next post with content, he defends himself and misreps Kortul's attack on him.

[Zdenek]

1. Unwarranted defense on a now claimed cop who is calling us guilty - obvious scumplay is obvious...whut?

Cute trying to use the fact that he's a claimed cop, as though Kimor new that at the start.

(oh, and he even explained it in 216 in a manner that looks to make sense to me, maybe you should address that and how it makes him more scummy, or were you ignoring it on purpose?)

Practically every action can be explained, and the problem is that Kimor was ignoring the main wagons at the time.

2. Repeat. Again, at worst you're calling Kimor scumbuddies with Klick (and in recent light...yeah) At worst you're calling it buddying. But he did the same thing with ICEninja, so do you think he's doing it to all his buddies and you have half the team there? Or do you think Kimor is just a derp player?

At the moment, I'd say it was buddying.

3. I would presume defense of someone *is* a read. He also offered scum reads but did it in a way weaker than you would like - because scum are known for not wanting to call people scummy.

Defending someone is not offering a read on them.
And yes, scum do fencesit and attack people weakly.

Yes, I could have phrased that more politely, sorry.

But I don't believe you, and even if I'm wrong to not believe you, it doesn't matter because you can just kill Thor tonight, so whatever.

Why do you think this kill will go through?

Klick has little reason to shoot anyone but Thor. Thor will be flipped tomorrow, or Klick will be dead tomorrow, or the scum have a roleblocker.

Thanks for that. If you understand all of that, it should be fucking clear to you that we should be lynching Thor.

This really is driving me crazy. Klick is probably an idiot who thoughtlessly claimed his result. There's a chance this is some sort of gambit, but claiming day-cop, night-vig on day one is suicide, so it's unlikely that he's scum.

[Zdenek]

I don't see the connection between what I said and lynching Thor being the obvious conclusion.

Tell me what you think tomorrow will be like under the circumstance if we lynch GreyICE and the one where we lynch Thor.

[Zdenek]

So, is the main reason that you want to lynch GreyIC Shamrock's case?

[Zdenek]

The meta case on GreyICE has to be the vaguest meta case I have ever seen people buy into so whole-heartedly.

[Zdenek]

Refute my point about what we'll end up with tomorrow.

I really just wanted to see if that had anything to do with whether you wanted to lynch GreyICE over Thor.

[Zdenek]

I believe that the credit for Grey's lynch on day one goes to the two scum teams.

[Zdenek]

It's not that Grey wasn't scummy, but Kimor was scummy, Thor was scummy and there was cop guilty on him. I'd wager that there's about (and really it's probably less than) one game a year where the right play was lynching GreyICE (or well the player in his position in that game :p), and in this game they would have both flipped scum, so they're both good lynches.