Should a vig who shoots N1 be Modkilled?

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Yes or No?

Yes
9
5%
No
185
95%
 
Total votes: 194

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Post Post #7 (isolation #0) » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:40 pm

Post by Kublai Khan »

When the OP says "N1" does he really mean "N0"?

As in, a night start game?
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Post Post #131 (isolation #1) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:16 am

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No talking about ongoing games.
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Post Post #135 (isolation #2) » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:48 pm

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In post 134, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 0, DoomYoshi wrote:For playing against win condtion.
Except in extreme cases, so voting for yes doesn't mean it's automatic. It would still be up to the mod of course.

Some players say no: a player should never be killed for using their role.
So, what if a vig shoot an innocent child?

Vig is already the most anti-town town role (I consider it strictly worse than PGO). Some players say that vig should never shoot at all (I tend to agree in most cases).
Holy balls this is stupid.
In the hypothetical “OH WHAT IF VIG SHOOTS IC?”, why the fuck would it do that in the first place? If it does though, idk about modkilling but probably blacklist that player.
As for shooting n1, I think calling n1 shooting bad is like calling D1 lynching bad (at least for the reasoning I’ve seen for each, which is similar). And I think neither Vig nor PGO are “the most anyitoen town PRs”. PGO can be used well siometimes, and vig is swingy, not antitown.
The OP meant N0. Like, a vig taking a shot before the game starts is a generally bad idea.

Necros are dumb.
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Post Post #163 (isolation #3) » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:26 pm

Post by Kublai Khan »

In post 159, Leucosticte wrote:
In post 7, Kublai Khan wrote:When the OP says "N1" does he really mean "N0"?
I always say that "N0 means yes" but some people insist it needs to be consensual

From https://archive.werewolv.es/extra/livev ... e=PostGame :
A D2 lynch would be implied consensus from the village/wolves and therefore have some control or influence over it. A night 1 maverick shot that in most statistical probabilities is going to harm the town rather than help it, made by a single individual, is a different matter.
I was a vig in my last game and took 2 shots with a 50% scum kill rate.
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Post Post #167 (isolation #4) » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:54 pm

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In post 164, Leucosticte wrote:
In post 163, Kublai Khan wrote:I was a vig in my last game and took 2 shots with a 50% scum kill rate.
Were those N1 shots, though.
The first night after Day1? Yes.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #5) » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:01 am

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In post 169, Leucosticte wrote:
In post 167, Kublai Khan wrote:The first night after Day1? Yes.
It was the same way over at werewolv.es; there had been three prior games (wlf-024, wlf-038, wlf-045) where a N1 militia (aka vig) shot took out scum, and I tried it and was unlucky enough to take out a friendly power role (the Diseased; when scum kills them, they're unable to kill the next night). So thus far, there's a 75% rate of the vig taking out scum on N1 since I was the first one to try it and hit a townie.

Maybe a N1 shot is similar to the king's gambit in chess. Supposedly, it's been refuted, but if you play it against people who aren't prepared for it, it can give you an advantage.
I'm not sure if any analysis has been done here about the accuracy rating of vigs for N1 shots. If I had time, I'd probably look into it. My gut feeling is that statistically they shouldn't take a shot since there are entirely way more town than scum, but in practice, the ratio is beneficial to town. Same as on your site.

But personally, based on the dozens of games I've played I wouldn't include a vig in any setup I design. The role is powerful and too swingy. How much advantage and disadvantage the town gets from the role is entirely dependent on who happens to randomly receive the role.

A lot of setup designers try to mitigate that wild variance by putting limits on the role. Such as reducing the number of shots it can take (1-shot Vigilante - only has one bullet during the entire game).
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Post Post #174 (isolation #6) » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:13 am

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In post 172, Leucosticte wrote:Yeah, over on Werewolv.es, the militia has only one bullet for the whole game. I think part of the reason for including the militia as a core role may be that the games are on a 24-hour (12-hour day, 12-hour night) cycle, and some players just show up for maybe 20 minutes and then are gone for the day; so a situation could arise where there isn't enough time to get everyone to change their votes if some revelation (e.g. an unexpected counterclaim) happens at the 11th hour; and therefore the militia may just have to act during the night on his own initiative in those cases. Also, there's the kind of situation where it's a 4-player endgame, and you know Player B is trustworthy, but aren't sure which of Player C or D is scum; you could just lynch C and shoot D, and it would be a village win. (You wouldn't want to just No Lynch because then the scum could kill Player B in the night.)

Anyway -- what ended up happening was, when I did a N1 vig, I got taken to task pretty harshly, which I think is their normal practice for dealing with people who make what they consider dumb plays. And I suspect this is because it's a small site, and they have experts in the same games as beginners and just generally sucky and/or low-effort players. So, the experts get annoyed when weaker players mess up their game.
Yeah, that strategy sounds right. If you have only 1 shot, then you should maximize the results. Every community has their style and quirks. With shorter days (compared to ours), then their arguments kinda make sense. If they can only play a few minutes a day, they may enjoy our style more because several RL days can go by in every phase.

But everytime there is an agreed-upon "best practice", then the scum (or werewolves in your case) are developing ways to best counter the best practice. It's always important to constantly challenge the status quo ideas of "this is the best way to play".

Generally I've found "experts only" games to be boring. New players and wild cards add error and chaos which good town can hunt in and scum can take advantage of.
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